Brent Detwiler’s Perspective On The “Ambassadors Of Reconciliation” Group Reconciliation Efforts
October 6, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
From Brent Detwiler comes the following, which he posted on his blog and then emailed to me so that we could also discuss it here:
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Should I Participate in the SGM “Group Reconciliation?”
Absolutely but Not Naively!
by Brent Detwiler
On October 1, Dave Harvey posted “Group Reconciliation Assistance and how you can be involved.” That post drew massive criticism. As a result, SGM is allowing people to provide feedback without mandatory attendance at the “Getting to the Heart of the Conflict” seminar on November 8 during the Pastors Conference. Praise God!
Now, you can appear before “congress” and give testimony without traveling to D.C. I’d encourage every person to take advantage of this opportunity. The leaders of Sovereign Grace Ministries have been deaf, dumb and mute when it comes to serious and substantial charges against them. Maybe God will open their ears, minds and mouths. But not if we are silent. Now is the time to speak.
I can’t guarantee this “group reconciliation” will result in biblical change. I doubt the findings will ever be published in any specificity. I don’t imagine it will hinder C.J. from returning as President. And I can’t envision any disciplinary being taken against men like Dave Harvey, Bob Kauflin, Steve Shank or Gene Emerson. I am not naive. Disappointment has become an dubious friend. Disillusionment an unwelcomed companion.
But it is still important for all of us to share our grievance, offenses, concerns, observations and correction. There are still good people and good churches in SGM. There is still the possibility of public repentance, confession and restitution by C.J., the SGM Board, and other leaders in SGM churches throughout America and the world. Read the book of Jonah and the ESV footnotes. God is compassionate.
But people must courageously speak up regarding their former or present SGM church and its leaders. This is not a time for silence. This is a time to speak out. Yes, redemptively, but also loudly and clearly!
The hundreds of people who left the Richmond Church must speak. The good folks who were part of Grace Community Church in Mooresville, NC must speak. Brothers and sisters from Gaithersburg, Ashburn, Orlando, Phoenix, San Diego, Charlotte, Denver, Stillwater, Philadelphia, and a host of other cities must lift their voice and send in their thoughts.
If SGM doesn’t hear from us they can make a case that concerns for the ministry are overstated and actually quite limited in scope. It can be presented as all is well except for a few tweaks here and there.
Voting in a national election doesn’t always produce the desired results but it is necessary, right and sometime effective. So too, writing your Senator regarding the budget, health care, abortion may accomplish nothing. But is a civic duty and God is pleased to use your efforts as He sees fit.
I spent two hours laying out my concerns for SGM to Ted Kober, President of Ambassadors of Reconciliation, on July 14. I covered critical issues like the growing presence of lying, deceit, manipulation, lording, hypocrisy, and spiritual abuse by C.J. and others. I’ve provided him 1,000 pages of documentation. But I am one voice and it is a voice SGM has sought to silence. All my writings have now been condemned as gossip and slander. They are off limits to people in Sovereign Grace churches. So SGM may not listen to me but maybe they will listen to a multitude of people around the world.
Please participate for the glory of God, the advance of the gospel, and the good of people in the movement! Sovereign Grace Ministries used to be different. It has changed for the worse and is in need of radical reform. But God can restore them if there is authentic repentance that results from your faithful appeals. Therefore, pray for them and contact AOR. See how below.
Thanks
Brent
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
‘Email SGM Survivors Bomb’ to AoR?
So I had a thought, even though I’m in the process of reconciliation with SGM. We should all send our stories to ‘mail@hisaor.org’ – Attention Ted Kober
This way AoR could possibly grasp how wide the issues are, thoughts? :worm
Mike
( quick follow up to Patti from other thread)
Patti- I just called my (Reformed and complementarian pastor) and he said that he does not personally know a single pastor or teacher who would take the ESS doctrine and draw an analogy with women and the son, and that yes, husbands and pastors should be identifying with Jesus, not the Father (as should all of us wanting to have the likeness of Christ.) We believe in male leadership, but ESS is no grounds for it.
He also pointed out that the problem with a lot of SGM guys is just lack of seminary education….
@Mike #1, not a bad idea at all. In my own instance, as one desiring much distance from anything SGM, I’d cc: Ms. Boorstein (Wash Po), Julia Duin (Wash Times I think), Rachel Zoll (AP Religion Writer), Christianity Today, and World Magazine. Others may have compunction, however, this scribe has no compunction in hearing Mahaney say, “I’m getting exactly what I deserve–fairness, justice and truth.”
Recommended article for the last post (by KAZ) of last thread.
Mahaney, CJ: “Better Than I Deserve: My True Stories of Deception and Getting Away with It.” Gaithersburg, MD: Comedy-Central-Ha-Ha Press. 2011.
“Heb 7:24 “but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.”
Who is the audience for the book of Hebrews? Why would discussing the “High Priest” and making comparisons be illustrative for that audience? What did the “High Priest” do for the Jews?
“Jesus did not stop being flesh, or stop being our high priest, at the cross or at the resurrection or when he ascended on high. He is eternally subordinated by his free and loving will to obey the father and remain the high priest God-man for all eternity.”
Jesus did not stop being “flesh” after the resurrection? Are you referring to the 40 days he made appearances? Or, are you referring to eternity?
Also, What is there for Jesus to “obey” the God (Father) for in Eternity if they are united in will and work?
Have you noticed what God the Father and Jesus Christ are referred to in the last 3 chapters of Revelation?
“So, the anti ESS folks are rightly upset with how this doctrine is used, but in my opinion, wrongly reject the truth.”
I think many miss it. It is teaching the ETERNAL subordination of Jesus Christ, Lord of Hosts for eternity past and eternity future. A hierarchy,chain of command within the Trinity.
I would like to know which Person of the Trinity you believe the Holy Spirit obeys/or is subordinate to. And you have not explained Isaiah 9 and the descriptors used for the coming Messiah. And where is God the “Father” within the Trinity, in the OT?
Oops at #3. I don’t care if the email is published, but must have put it in “Name” line.
Can we get a reprieve from the discussions of the Trinity? And stick to the point of the threads?
dpv..I fixed it for you
“Patti- I just called my (Reformed and complementarian pastor) and he said that he does not personally know a single pastor or teacher who would take the ESS doctrine and draw an analogy with women and the son, and that yes, husbands and pastors should be identifying with Jesus, not the Father (as should all of us wanting to have the likeness of Christ.) We believe in male leadership, but ESS is no grounds for it.”
LOL! This is what they all say…then go on to make references to it all the time.
Here is an example of totally twisting scripture to make it fit ESS and comp doctrine from CBMW. (By the way, your pastor may want to read Ware’s book on Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Grudems book on Feminism…both allude to ESS mapping to gender hierarchy)
One thing to always watch out for with the Reformers is they are NEVER clear and straight forward. They tend to teach around the mulberry bush. They will say they are NOT teaching what they ARE alluding to.
Here is from CBMW:
http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Eternal-Subordination-of-the-Son-Pastoral-Implications-Part-V
“Nevertheless, 1 Corinthians 11:3 leads us to understand that there is a direct connection between the Trinity and our roles in marriage.”
Hmmm. Wonder Who the Holy Spirit is in the marriage?
Oh… but there was a lot of obfuscation getting up to the above quote! There are 5 parts to it and at the end they sneak this in but say…Oh but ESS does not define our understanding of marriage roles BUT….look at 1 Corin 11…there is a connection! The door is open. They always do this. You gotta read/listen to them with a fine tooth comb and analyze everything with the full pericope of the Word.
Now, some will come on here telling me that is not what they were saying. happens all the time. They are never saying what they are saying. You would think people PAID to communicate the Word would not have to always be interpreted by their followers.
Oh, DPV, just skip ’em… sometimes I skip yours :wink:
“Can we get a reprieve from the discussions of the Trinity? And stick to the point of the threads?”
You mean “God” is not the point of all the threads? :wink:
1. Thanks, Patti, started doing that already. Will continue also.
2. On another note, a letter sent to Editor at Christianity Today.
Dear Sir:
You need a thorough investigative report on the current debacle that is on-going at Sovereign Grace Ministries with CJ Mahaney.
I have about 1200 pages of research that has developed. I’m not an SGM-er, but am following it.
Also, and importantly, follow very closely Brent Detwiler’s blog at http://www.brentdetwiler.com. That man has the insider-scoop with leads to other voices. If research is undertaken, he’s the man with whom to start.
Also, although divagatory and conversational at times (in the comments), there are thoughtful, timely, and relevant posts by the blog-owners (as well as many by other long-time students of SGM). See http://www.sgmsurvivors.com and www. and http://www.sgmrefuge.com.
The public needs to hear of it. The air stinks and needs to be cleared.
Bobby Ross’s recent article was fair and balanced, but depth is warranted. Also, Ms. Boorstein just did a fair article over at Wash Po.
Respectfully,
Donald Philip Veitch
Lydia….I don’t know that Kris wants this thread to turn into an ESS debate. Let me just say that Jesus is in heaven in a glorified body, a body of flesh, part of creation, forever, and will never go back to being whatever it was He existed as with God the Father before anything was yet created.
If you don’t like the words eternal subordination, then use the words eternal incarnation and priesthood, eternal God-man, eternal precreation spirit+creation. Use whatever words you want, but something happened at the incarnation that is eternal. It was not a temporary 33 year condition that reverts back to pre Genesis. He is our high priest forever.
Yeah, he was given all authority and power, so maybe subordination isn’t the best term for modern cultural understanding. But properly understood this is a majestic and incredible revelation of the love of God beyond comprehension.
By the way, I resent your implication that my husband and pastor are liars and “obfuscation”. They are not. Nor am I. We can find enough verses all over the bible to defend complentarianism without needing to tell guys to go identify with just the Father instead of Jesus.
KAZ asked;
ok off topic but can somone give me something say like a witty comment I can say to my current SGM friends when they say “better than I deserve” ?
I wasn’t completely taken aback when I first heard that. I’m 50 and the first time I heard that was in the last year from an SGMer. I was speechless, I din’t know what to say, so I’ve thought about it since.
How about saying “Why?, what did you get yourself into today!” or “So, is that better than lately?
I was thinking that because I also heard someone from SGM say they didn’t deserve someone, and it was supposedly because that person was just better than themselves in their mind? Or did they do something recently that truly made them unworthy of the person? I don’t know, it was weird to me. I mean their was a time that my husband did not deserve me, truly he didn’t. But outside of the thing that he did, where would the generic not deserving or better than I deserve talk come from other than a way to keep you bent low under some strange invisible weight that was nailed to the cross. It seems if someone didn’t already have insecure issues it would create them.
one quick clarification ( skip it DPV)
ESS does hold to an obedient son in eternity past as well as future, in the eternal purposes and decrees of God. Its just a lot easier to picture it going forward from the incarnation.
Patti-when they talk about better than you deserve regarding abuse, rape, etc ( which they do) they need the most direct rebuke possible that they did NOT deserve to be raped and beaten. Otherwise, best to let it pass IMO.
@Lydia #7 –
This quote from David Kotter in the page you link to:
… gets to the heart of the matter – in CBMW understanding, the man is to emulate Christ’s headship, not his sacrificial servanthood. The woman is to submit to the man as the Son submits to the Father, not as her husband (like her) submits to the Son. Kind of flies in the face of what 5years was talking about, and this Kotter guy has an MDiv from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Al Mohler is also very closely associated with CBMW. Can’t blame it on their educational achievements or lack thereof. I’m not saying that 5years is categorically wrong, just that the ESS that the CBMW crowd espouse is not the same ESS that 5years is talking about.
I’m not a 5-point Calvinist myself, but I totally agree (with Unassimilated, I think, from the last post)- after doing a lot of reading and observation, Calvinism and Reformed theology is NOT SGM’s problem. Neither is lack of formal seminary training their problem (although I think it would have helped them avoid a LOT of the damage they should (but most likely won’t) be dealing with in this recon-silly-ation process. My opinion is their problems are a lot simpler – all based in selfishness, ego, and the desire to control others.
‘kay… I promise… no more ESS talk for me today.
‘….something happened at the incarnation that is eternal. It was not a temporary 33 year condition that reverts back to pre Genesis. He is our high priest forever.”
I agree with that 5years, but just what that means regarding suboordination is my only debate.
Lydia, I know what you mean about CBMW, I never knew CBMW existed until a couple of years ago, that’s when I first started blogging on other sitesabout this stuff. And asking my friends if they knew this existed. No one ever heard of it around here. Of course Washington State being one of the most liberal unchurched states in the union your not going to get many people saved by introducing what we would see as inequality in any way. In fact I have been so surprised to see that it seems there is so much segragation of races in marriage on the East coast. I don’t have any friends near me that take this stuff this deep because it doesn’t affect their lives. It didn’t my adult life until my older daughter was getting married and heard about a “complementarian” doctrine for the first time from our pastor at premarriage counselling. She had read her Bible for years without ever seeing the CBMW in it. She read a lot of books like Mere Christianity but she always saw a mutual submission.
Of course that was solidified when she did a YWAM season. Have you read what CBMW writes about them? They may have some other control issues but gender is not one them.
Scary thing to me is with Mark Driscoll so big out here it is spreading. Our town has a satellite of Driscoll now, and our church has lost several young pastors to the CBMW logic. Our new pastor is egalitarian. Our old youth pastor is now lead pastor at a church that looks so much like an SGM church and his blog has all the links to like Mohler, Piper, Driscoll, etc… there is some sort of prestige or power that seems to be drawing these young men. But they don’t seem as friendly any more, their heart seems to be going, it’s weird, maybe if I saw an improvement I wouldn’t be so cynical. Our new pastor has the biggest heart for people of any pastor I have ever known.
Fried Fish said “recon-silly-ation.” :lol:
KAZ-
How bout “WOW! Time for a sin-sniff session cause that will really help you remember 1 Pet. 2:9-10.”
5years,
Let me see if I’m hearing you correctly. Hypothetically, if I had just been raped when an SGMer asks me I am, a ‘godly’ response would be to say “better than I deserve?” I think I sort of got that idea some time ago here but I think it was so hard to believe that I may have ‘repressed’ that memory.
I will wait for your answer before I fly off the handle.
I meant “asks me ‘how’ i am”
“recon-silly-ation”
just had to see it again, definitely the humor of the day for me
Kaz,
I wish I had a comeback to “better than I deserve.”
The phrase “better than I deserve” always bothered me. I could never say it. We are God’s children and he has so many blessings/promises he wants to give to us. When people use that phrase it like they are telling to keep his blessings/promises because I am so unworthy. God wants us to walk in His victory and with that mindset it is like you can never experienced victory or joy in Christ.
Kaz-the last time someone said to me,
“Better than I deserve!”, I asked him:
“What does the blood of Jesus and the righteousness it conveyed to you say about that?”
Sadly, he smiled and said, “That’s right!” in agreement, missing the whole point.
So the next time I hear it, I think I will just say,
“That’s right, it’s all about you!” and walk away.
I have no catchy comeback, Kaz.
On one hand, of course, it is perfectly true — we have received the manifold grace of God which is exceedingly more than we could ever hope to deserve by any efforts of our own.
On the other hand, Jesus has made us fully accepted, new creatures, bearers of His righteousness, seated in the heavenlies with Him, kings and priests unto our God. By that standard, what we deserve in Christ has not yet appeared, but, when it does, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him face to face.
” Al Mohler is also very closely associated with CBMW. ”
CBMW is housed at SBTS. A few miles from me.
” I’m not saying that 5years is categorically wrong, just that the ESS that the CBMW crowd espouse is not the same ESS that 5years is talking about.”
Sure it is. It is the same one taught since Knight’s book in 1977. The only thing PDI is claiming is that one does not need the Trinity to defend comp doctrine. CBMW says that, too. But, CBMW’s result is the only logical one for a chain of command in the Trinity. What is the purpose for teaching a chain of command for the Trinity? Grudem teaches it this way as does most of the Reformed world. It is HUGE at many SBC seminaries.
What has happened is that many of the Reformed guys got challenged big time so they are now playing it down. Go back about 5 years and listen to them teach this. They are teaching the exact same thing PDI is teaching here.
” My opinion is their problems are a lot simpler – all based in selfishness, ego, and the desire to control others.”
I totally agree. But you need doctrine to affirm and maintain those things. People need to think there is a biblical basis or it does not work.
And many errant doctrines are emphasized to keep “control”. ESS is one of them. Remember, it started getting popular around the early 80’s. A cultural backlash? I think so because Knights book was one big cultural backlash. If you study Mormonism or JW doctrine, you will be astonised at how closely it fits with what ESS is teaching. Jesus is subordinate to the Father in eternity past and future.
I have asked PDI5years Who the Holy Spirit subordinates to in the Trinity. No answer. ESS teaches an eternal chain of command. Strangely, the Third Person of the Trinity is hardly ever mentioned in a doctrine describing the Trinity!~ A clue something is wrong.
I suspect I am about to get censored. So be it! I think it is that serious of an errant doctrine.
My comeback to “Better than I deserve” — You might be right about that.
IMO, when SGM leaders say this (if they still do and especially CJ) they mean something more like “Much better than you deserve.” Or “Not nearly as good as a stunningly humble saint such as myself deserves and I’m pretty sure Godr agrees with me.” See my SGM glossary from August 5.
I meant–
KAZ: On the better-than-i-deserve comeback…
You: “How are you doing?”
SGMer: “Better than i deserve…”
You: “I can see that, let me help you with that…” (then firmly slap them silly and/or kick them in the shins.)
This should remedy the situation. I don’t think they will say that response again, at least not to you!
:D
Re my #25. I really can spell God correctly. Sigh.
I’ve been reading along for a while. Interesting posts on submission. Know that Sov Grace Church in Fredericksburg will be preaching on the second half of Ephesians 5 this Sunday. Senior pastor was a Navy officer, completed Pastor’s College and been leading the SG church in Fredericksburg for over 2 years.
Anyone in the area stop by or listen http://www.sovgrace.cc Would be interested on hearing what you think.
you: “how are you doing?”
SGMer: “better than I deserve”
you: “oh wow, going from really ‘deserving better’ to ‘better than you deserve’, huh?–I wasn’t aware you were promoted to position of paid pastor recently!
sgmnot, I like your comeback #27
Hi Dora,
I don’t have time to listen to the whole first half right now but I started listening a bit, moved the bar to the middle of the mp3 and listened to him talk about darkness and light. Do you know anyone who might have known him before SGM and the pastor’s college. It is just really eery how he sounds exactly and i mean exactly like CJ when he is emphasizing a point. I’d hate to criticize him if he just already happened to have that mannerism resemblance is uncanny.
Well Lydia, I am sorry you are upset about me not responding to the question of the HS. I did not think it germane to the subject of the son.
However, I’ll throw out these verses: (John 16)
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Seems to be this shows a functional subordination or submission of the Holy Spirit to Jesus. He speaks only what he hears, and receives from Jesus what He reveals to us. Let the reader decide.
And yes, the HS is fully God and fully equal in deity to the Father and Son.
You think this is errant doctrine, so you tell me- do you deny that Jesus remains God in the flesh forever? Last time I looked in my bible, the spirit of antichrist denies God in the flesh…and it means right now, not 2000 years ago. Well? Is he a permanent high priest forever in a glorified body or is he not? Was the incarnation permanent or not? Did God become man eternally or just for 33 years?
JWs teach Jesus is not God and not deity. Mormons teach the Father has a body and has/had bodily sexual relations. Christians teach that the Father is spirit, the HS is spirit, but the son incarnated in a body as the God-man. You really have some major confusion going on to say ESS is like JWs or Mormons…….
Hi Patti
You have to go back to his internship at Kingsway a few years ago to catch some of his earlier preaching. This coming
Sunday he is supposed to be preaching on the 2nd half of Eph 5.
I’m just wondering what you all think of this statement posted at SGM regarding the AOR process:
“Those who listen to the seminar online will have an opportunity to complete feedback forms regarding SGM and send them to AOR for inclusion in their review of SGM (similar to the forms that seminar atendees will fill out).”
Does this mean that the only way you can give feedback that will be included is to FIRST listen to the seminar?
Not to get too into the ESS discussion, because I think it is a fairly esoteric theology, which has been misapplied by some, but to say it started in 1977 would not be true. It is traced to the nicene creed, and Calvin talked about it as well. And remember it is a economic subordination, not an ontological one. But it has been debated and argued by many wiser than I, and even among reformed types there is some debate as to the implications/understanding of it. i.e. here is a thread on purtianboard (where the super reformed people hang out (way way more reformedish than me))
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/intra-trinitarian-subordination-24442/
I have a good education and fairly good understanding but I struggle to follow some of the arguments and what they really are talking about. But enough of ESS, which I don’t think any of us can fully understand, and which the theology of I would not say is the issue, and on to SGM.
Piggybacking on ExCLCer @#31:
SGMer: “Better than I deserve.”
1. “Quite right. A good sin-sniffing brigade of sin-hounds would strongly support you’re claim including His Sovereign Majesty.”
Or,
2. “Ya know, Mahaney claims and uses that same phrase too. Ain’t it true? He’s gotten by with national sins of gossip and slander…and alot more too…and has never been called on it. Ain’t the somethin’ now?”
Or,
3. “Have ya read the latest book? Mahaney, CJ, and Davebitious Harvey. “Strategic Uses of the Gossip Card: How I Used to My Own Ends and Used It to Silence Others.” Gaithersburg, MD: Big Smiles Press, 2011. Ya really got read it.”
Email Aor? Now there’s a thought.
I have been seriously considering a letter to Ligonier Ministries concerning their publishing an article in Tabletalk by CJ called “Happy Pastors”. I want to include the transcript of CJ’s “Happiest Place”
sermonspeech.I want to ask if RC can agree theologically with CJ’s exegetical pontifications? (And the fall-out in the churches.)
KAZ, I don’t know about a response to “Better than I deserve.” But I had this SGMer always ask me how I was doing, and I would always reply “Fantastic!” He would always ask me “Why do you deserve that?” and I would say “I don’t deserve it. That’s Why it’s Fantastic!”
Understanding that they always focus on the negative rather than positive, is the key. Think about that angle and I’ll bet you can devise a clear comeback.
Defender, I LOVE that!!! (The SGM response/fantastic post) :clap :clap
Defender @38, revising and extending on your point as well as Mike Cole’s @#1:
1. Good idea re: Ligonier and RC. A moment of name-dropping, if I may, but I’ve known RC well since the mid-1970s when he was making debuts. I own everything from Ligonier’s inventory…en toto. Nuff said, but a letter from this scribe will go forth to RC Sr and his wife, Vesta. NO MORE articles for Table Talk or appearances at Ligonier Conferences. None, de nada, zippo. That’ll be mailed Saturday.
2. Others to send affidavits, testimonials or inquiries…ASIDE from the secretive process envisioned by AoR:
Julia Duin, now at Wash Post. jcduin@aol.com
Rachel Zoll, AP Religion Reporter. rzoll@ap.org
World Magazine. mailbag@worldmag.com
Ms. Blaine. Famous for sex abuse cases with Roman priests. snapblaine@gmail.com.
Michelle Boorstein. Washington Post. Email form via http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/michelle+boorstein/
Christianity Today. Letters to Editor. Email via http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/help/contactus.html
3. Will be sending my thoughts to the above by separate correspondence.
4. Have a standing invitation to write for “The English Churchman,” the oldest Protestant paper in continuous publication. Back to the 18th century. Peter will publish a 500-word review of the SGM-hubris.
5. I concur with Brent’s overall point of wise involvement with the process. But, AoR needs to be held accountable also. Brent was wise to insist on “written records” with Mr. Shifty.
Kaz, this does not go over well, but it’s fun –
You ask – “How are you?”
They say – “Better than I deserve”
Reply – “Really, I’m doing better than you deserve too.”
Makes for quick exits and short conversations. :wink:
or you could say –
“Well of course you are, we are all pretty surprised that God hasn’t struck you down.”
:D
this thread is so off topic even Kris hasn’t made a comment yet…
No judgement, just an observation…
I hope everyone who has been abused, hurt, dissed, or whatever, will heed Brent’s call…
May have an impact – hope so!
Unassimilated, a variant on your proposal:
(Exclamatory) “Oh my, my,my, how very, very true… (dramatic pause like CJ, while placing hand to mouth and whispering)…the evidence is so overwhelming from your claim…several have noticed it too.”
Glad I am Out, concur. Spot on post, provided there’s no “gag clauses.”
Below is a link to SGM’s Plant and Build blog for the answers to any questions anyone has about responding to AOR’s Group Rec thing. At the end of Brent’s blog post, he also linked the info for participating without going to Gaithersburg. Brent encourages everyone with a concern to respond. It may take some time, but it may be worth it; if for no other reason than to show the volume of responses that might come in.
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/
DPV – Yes, nothing like inciting the SGM paranoia.
or
“Better than I deserve”
Reply, “Oh I see…..so you haven’t talked to the pastors about it…tisk tisk”
KAZ – gonna take my cue from Don…
“You know, I was talking with your care group leader last week, and he mentioned that. Is there something you need to confess?”
Unassimilated, I don’t want to obsure Oswald’s point at #46, namely, involvement.
But, on your point, yes. To extend on your point at #47:
“Be careful, man (or woman), historically, Care Group Leaders have collected information, sorta like Gossip, talked to their Pastors and even…get this Dude, told their wives too…and they may be collecting records on you…don’t tell too many about your manifold wickedness which we all agree with…I’d keep a lid on it.”
They mention nothing about ‘the gag order’, which leaves me to believe that has not changed. I am considering writing them, but will NOT sign anything_especially before meeting them, that will give up my right to discuss anything I deem appropriate with a lawyer, in a court, or anyone else I deem appropriate! Ex ‘re-framed’ this whole notion for me earlier-it is THEY who want to reconcile! The burden is on THEM, not US! We should not jump through hoops-they should! To sign an agreement ahead of time, committing I will speak to no one in the future about the matter, only seals for them that it is buried, whether I agree anything has changed, or not! How convenient for them! This is definitely something to consider carefully.
At best, I will write them a letter, but I dont see why I should meet them in person..I would want more evidence of a true desire to change before I waste/spend my time with them in person…JMO