On Confidentiality, And A Random Question
October 12, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
The Ambassadors of Reconciliation business continues. Apparently, Sovereign Grace Ministries and the AoR folks have agreed to drop the usual confidentiality agreement that AoR asks participants to sign. So if you want to tell the Ambassadors of Reconciliation about your SGM experience, you won’t have to promise to never again discuss anything related to what happened to you. You can actually share your SGM story without having to sign away your right to that story.
That’s a good thing.
I do have a random question, though, something that occurred to me as I was thinking about SGM’s hiring the AoR folks to do this assessment for them.
Covenant Life Church and several other SGM churches have been known to keep detailed records (“files”) of information relating to their members. Especially in light of these files, I think it’s safe to say that church leaders already know which members have left, and for the most part, why – or at least part of the reason why – those members are no longer part of their churches. Particularly in the cases where members left in the wake of disagreements with pastors, those pastors already have a very good idea of who the offended parties might be. And if their memories need refreshing, most SGM pastors can look back through the records that have been kept. A quick perusal would probably yield dozens of names of people who probably should be approached with apologies for leaders’ heavy-handedness and so forth.
So what I’m wondering is, in addition to having these AoR people solicit testimonies from offended parties, is Covenant Life Church and other churches that maintain rmember files handing these files to AoR?
Wouldn’t that simplify this process greatly? I mean, I’m guessing there are a number of people over the years who were wronged by SGM. If the purpose of the AoR investigation is truly about getting a handle on SGM’s mishandling of members and on SGM’s issues, wouldn’t it be a lot more efficient for SGM churches to just turn over their records to AoR, rather than depend upon the rather iffy process of putting out these public notices on venues where the majority of wronged parties might not even see them?
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Just Saying …
Here is my position on Brent and the bloggers …
1) Brent WAS THERE! He was a part of the inner workings of SGM for DECADES! I believe him. He KNOWS what happened and HOW it happened and was a part of the problem. He HAS ACKNOWLEDGED where he was wrong and continues to repent. I trust and believe Brent!
2) The Bloggers have had things HAPPEN to them. They received the ungodly actions of SGM. What happened to them is REAL! I believe them. They KNOW what was done to them.
3) The issue in all of this is not Brent … it is CJ, Dave Harvey, Bob Kauflin, Gene Emerson, Steve Shank and the pastors that BLINDLY follow and listen to these SGM so-called “leaders”.
Please keep the focus on the SIN of SGM. Pray for ALL of them. However, I am not going to throw Brent under the bus like SGM has. Brent’s approach is EXACTLY what is needed against SGM because they have become experts at hiding, manipulating and turning the table on everyone who doesn’t follow their lead. Brent is using their own words and his knowledge of the HISTORY of SGM to be the lone voice that can acutally go toe-to-toe with them.
THIS IS SERIOUS SIN on the part of SGM. I am truly fearful for them. Their hearts are hardened. God is not mocked. His church is precious to Him. SGM in not CJ’s and Dave’s church. Remember that!!!
WAKE UP EVERYONE!!!! Know what is happening! Question … Get involved!!!! This is VERY SERIOUS!!!
Great question, Kris.
I see one little problem. Most people have no idea of the depth and breadth of abuse until some time after they have left. So, when their file is closed, there are very few details of how deep the abuse was. But, given time to process, there would be so many more details.
And given what we have just learned about the madman CJ and his regime, I think many, many people are realizing new things they had no idea were there before.
I think that all they really need to do is read this blog and Refuge blog.
I have told my story so dang many times, I have no desire to do so again. It’s like going to a scar and cutting it open again to rub some more salt in the healed wound. But, if they’d read here, they would see my story.
How many people just won’t take the time? How many people need some time to process the question so they can get a cohesive story written? I have talked at length with a friend who was abused significantly by SGM and SGM leaders in particular. Their story is so twisted and so horrible. They haven’t written it out yet and I’m not sure they will. I mean, how do you get so much on paper? Especially when you have a demanding job and a family and a life?
Sidney
#403 on the previous thread meant to say neither accurate nor persuasive. And, just saying, if “people” discount the stories I reference because of Brent’s documents they should have the stuff to post here and say so.
Sidney,
I see what you’re saying. But I also think that if the true goal of the AoR process is for SGM to seek forgiveness and make restitution (aspects of “reconciliation”), then it makes no sense for SGM to sit on the wealth of information they possess.
If they open up their member files to AoR for perusal for names and situations that did not end well, wouldn’t that give the AoR people a lot more information than they are likely to get through a few announcements posted on blogs that not all SGM members even read?
Mole – I will be traveling into MD on the 7th and would love to connect with you while you are in DC . As I have several friends in the DC area that I want to see, it is my plan to stay through the weekend. Email me if you would: irv911help@yahoo.com
I’ve been posting here with the viewpoint that a “long look” at history helps us keep our perspective while working through the “short view” of what we want to see happen more quickly than it almost ever does. (Awkward sentence, but I think you get it.)
Then, this morning, I received the following on why a certain Christian teacher, Andy Naselli (whom I do not know), thinks understanding history is important. I will try to post the link, assuming that is acceptable practice here.
This is from Peter Cockrell’s blog, “Already Not Yet,” which I read and profit from. Peter is what I call a “truth broker” in that he mostly quotes other writers. The article quoted is generic — no reference to anything this site is about — but offers some great overall help with understanding what history offers us as we try to interpret where we are today and what is happening around us. Hope it might help.
http://pjcockrell.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/why-understanding-church-history-is-important/
Sorry, Kris —
I intended #6 to be part of the previous thread (just have learned how to post a link) — but I missed the close. This is not connected to the new thread, yet is general enough to possibly be of some value to readers/posters. Obviously, you will remove #6 and this note if you believe it is out of place or interruptive of what you have started here.
Thanks,
F.O.
@3 Phoenix:
I’m just saying there are two groups of people here.
1. Everyman – the common everyday member, care group leader or pastor who has been grieviously wounded and hoping for healing.
2. Mad Dog – CJ’s former right hand man who was himself authoritarianly abusive and is now on a personal crusade to bring down the master.
I am afraid Brent is using the wounded members on this blog (some of whom he wounded) in order to get revenge on SGM and we should be cautious about endorsing him.
When I talk to those unaware of the issues, they say they clicked on The Documents, thought it looked like the rantings of a bitter man spiraling out of control, and dismissed the entire issue. They aren’t even taking another step to look at the blogs to see what the wounded masses are saying. They don’t know about HappyMom or Noel or ExCLCer. They aren’t getting that far because they stop at Brent.
It’s good for Brent’s issues to play out and for everyone to get a look behind the scenes. It is all a part of the puzzle and reveals a lot. But, I don’t think it’s good for Everyman to get in bed with him. Everyman’s issues can stand alone and deserve their own evaluation.
I just don’t want to see victims being used in this situation.
MikePhila – Are you Brent?
To: Lost in (cyber) space and old-time CLC’ers
Re: Previous thread, #228, #232, #381
As a former PDI/SGM attender, I realize the pain of CHANGE. And, knowing there are good people in the movement, which is why I even care about your situation, which impacts the “whole body of Christ.” That is why I have asked for the old PDF copy of the CLC membership manual (1995 – 2001 time period, 1 PDF file for each chapter, including any possible ADDENDUMS). And, MP3 copies of CJ sermons on giving/tithing from same (or older) time period. It is important to realize that these problems we see in 2011 didn’t just happen, but the SEED was planted long ago. This was a methodical process! Understanding your/our pain, is why I can also see the GREATER importance of what II Peter 3:18 says:
“But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.”
I also know what TRUE ministry is supposed to do (Eph 4: 11-16). Herein, the truth will set us ALL free. That is, “as the truth is in Jesus” (Eph 4:20-24).
Please take the time and effort and forward aforementioned files to the Blog host. Your efforts are greatly appreciated! Thank you. :D
To me it seems that SGM is useing the AoR as a path to justify their own actions and their polocy……If it was about healing the injured things would be different but its all about them with no consideration for humility or God for that matter
On topic:
Pastors giving your personal files for the last 30 years to a third party is just wrong on so many levels. HUGE violation of pastor/member confidentiality.
I would be concerned the pastor’s judgments and comments about your situation would cloud the truth and make it difficult for the conciliators to see the true story.
I might be willing to demand the pastors turn over all of my files to the conciliators because I think it would be very telling.
Pastors not respecting confidentiality is part of the problem. They already make you sign an agreement that they can tell half the church. Now, they are going to tell outsiders???
Confidentiality is sacred. No pastor I interact with has any permission to share my confidential information with anyone ever without my permission.
Not saying I wouldn’t ask them to turn over my file. Just saying they better not do it behind my back.
Kris, You’re right. It’ll also show AoR just how weird SGM is. Just as Brent looks like a madman because of the sin-sniffing, seeming catty things that were “concerns” to the SGM and CLC leaders over the last however-many years.
Also, why not AoR just ask ALL of the SGM churches to give them the names and contact information for EVERY person who has left every SGM church ever?
That way, those who don’t look at evil blogs (Brent’s included) or at the SGM Havey blog will know what’s going on.
I think that’s the answer. I will re-post it. Not to toot my horn, but it seems obvious.
Every SGM church should be required by AoR to provide the names and contact information for every person who has left their churches.
As in a class action lawsuit. I have gotten those letters in the mail in the past…”You might be party to this class action lawsuit.”
I think that would be a great starting point. Then, offer every member who has left an SGM church the opportunity to share their story in the way that best suits them: in person or long-distance, in writing or by mouth etc.
Sidney
FO #6 — Thanks for the link. I’ve read things from A Naselli before at Gospel Coalition.
I agree that history is important and some of the most informative history is right in the Bible. I learn much from 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, Esther, and others. I love reading and rereading these stories. They show us so much about God’s activity in everything and how peoples often repeat the same prideful actions that indicate they think they can ‘do it themselves’. The Word of God is truly alive and active, and never goes out-of-date.
I sent my former pastor an email asking for a copy of the file he has on me. He responded claiming he does not have a file on me. The only record he has is my membership application and my signed agreemenet with the church discipline policy. I swear he told my husband at some point that he has files on members…Mr. Stretch, do you remember that? Very odd that he kept no notes from counseling. Don’t all counselors keep some sort of notes ( I know my Biblical Counselor I see now does)?
Mrs.Stretch #15
If a pastor has no notes on you then he cannot be held accountable for anything reguarding you becuase it did not happen as far as he is concerned becuase he has no notes on you….. can you see the fun circle of thought that can be used :wink:
Mrs. Stretch,
Every meeting you have with a pastor, you can see them taking notes.
They did not throw them away when you left.
You can count on it.
No worries, Just Saying, I’m still here — I’m just so tired of the whole mess (and really busy with my kids — my personal two and the high school 150). I got my hopes up this summer — only to have them dashed by the same old, same old stuff.
Hey acme,
It’s good to “see” you. I knew you were still here. Many are still here (or at least “drop by” from time to time).
We become “kindred spirits” when we experience something similar…almost like family.
That’s our strength. :)
“Just saying”….
My pastor graduated from a Reformed Seminary, is theologically brilliant and an avid reader, as well as kind and caring, and he read the docs and thought they make SGM look disgraceful. He doubts the organization can be salvaged.
He talked to a local pastor being courted by SGM and that guy has backed away thanks to Brent’s docs, and he also knows a pastor IN SGM who talked to him for a long time and believes Brent and is considering leaving….apparently there were little clues here and there along the way but nobody knew for sure, and now they do.
Know of another very intelligent educated literate couple who just left SGM.
I don’t think anybody looks at the docs and brushes them off except SGM koolaid drinkers. They are full of emails and conversations that can’t be brushed off- the “treat CJ like a teeenager” thing for example.
If they look like “the ravings of a bitter man”, well, all that does is confirm the problem. Brent was a founding PDI apostle who spent 25 years of his life being an apostle and lording it over people. If you like the docs and like Brent it makes SGM look bad. If you don’t like the docs nor Brent it still makes SGM look bad. This guy was on the top tier helping run the thing for 25 years!!!! Like him or despise him, no matter which, it makes SGM look exactly as bad and dysfunctional and sinful as Brent claims it is.
Mole….while I can be sceptical of the average charismatic dream and vision and prophecy ( and yeah I am charismatic, I just think a lot of that stuff is flesh :D ), I do believe what you saw was from God. Thanks for sharing.
Just Saying,
when I was in PDI/SGM and Brent came to speak at our church, I would try to be helping out in kids’ class or be in the nursing mothers’ room. He was nice enough, but boring. (Sorry, Brent.) However, though he has hurt people through his bull-dogged determination to stand up for what he believes is right, I don’t believe he EVER has been conniving and deceitful as CJ, Dave, & company. What’s happening with Brent in his interactions with CJ & Dave is a view into what has happened to many of us.
EXCEPT
most of us don’t have documentation.
If those that you say have looked at those documents haven’t seen CJ blackmailing Larry & the way he has gotten his own way for YEARS, & Dave & crew have ALLOWED him to, and are only focusing on Brent’s commentary in the documents, then I am SORRY, but they are foolish, short-sighted, & the reason why some of us here have called some SGM members blind sheep drinking the kool-aid.
What do they need – a rock dropped on their heads?
Brent is just smart enough to know that not getting everything in writing is suicide with SGM.
I used to think of the guys at PDI/SGM as “men of integrity”. NOT anymore.
Having integrity doesn’t mean that you won’t make any mistakes, but it’s standing up for what you believe. Brent’s certainly not perfect, but I think many of those of us who have seen how SGM really works can say he is a man of integrity.
Just Saying …
“Are you Brent?” … nope just an “Everyday” member who has seen and experienced the abuses and ways of PDI/SGM for almost 25 years …
My only point about Brent is that he is the ONLY one that has the goods on these guys, knows how they operate and was part of their ways. Everyone else (the bloggers) can only begin to surmise what actually took place behind the curtain of SGM. Brent was behind the curtain where the “powerful Oz (CJ)” lives with the rest of his team.
By chance, are you CJ? ;)
Re: Ellie, #21
I would be CAREFUL about endorsing Brent as a man of integrity! This guy was an IMPORTANT part of the PDI/SGM “A-Team” (that is APOSTOLIC TEAM, i.e. so called APOSTLE) and was involved in much of the problems we NOW see today. Which is part of HIS fruit in the matter, for which he is also “accountable.” Now, is he a detailed man and one who keeps loads of documentation. Sure! Is he taking heat for what he is and has done? Sure!
When was the documentation unloaded? Sometime after he was dumped by SGM! And, what was being contemplated some time period before he was dumped? A greater LEADERSHIP role in SGM! I don’t buy the nexus of integrity here at all… What I am interested in, is how much SGM paid him to do his “job” ALL THOSE YEARS? And, ditto for the other so called Apostles…
And, where did the money come from? Mostly from PDI/SGM churches, made up of members, giving tithes/offerings, then also those churches giving a tithe of the tithes so to speak to PDI/SGM… What teaching prompted this? Lets find out, then you be the judge, as to where Jesus is in all of this…And, how this fits into Eph 4:11-15.
Come on people, wake-up and smell the Scriptures!
Is “MikePhila” Brent? The question was asked before, but not answered?
I do not agree with a lot that Brent has written over the course of time. He is patriarchal and has penned really narrow-minded and sexist things and I am sure it wouldn’t take long for me to have a debate with him.
I remember him being a bit tedious but articulate. I can’t sit still for the length of time needed to listen to one of his long sermons.
The documents are documented records of what happens, they are data. Just like I don’t have an emotional connection with the data in lab, I don’t have one for documents; data are data and documents are documents.
My husband did carpentry work in the church office many long years ago and he overheard the pasotrs discussing the care group meetings. They kept files and they also discussed church members in a disrespectful way.
So, as much as I am not thrilled with Brent’s worldview and I am wary of his ability to hurt people based upon his track record, he’s far better than the Bald Eagle, the snivveling little boy-man, Harvy Wallbanger, or the Shankster or their brown-nosed minions.
Anyway, strangely, he came up on my facebook page as a possible friend and I checked out his background and he graduated from IUP with a BS in Biology…well, he has *some* redeeming qualities. :worm
Hmm, BS in Biology, I bet the frog was impressed… :huh
Since SGM is the one who hired AoR and, since Dave Harvey seems suspiciously eager to gather testimonies and since all the SGM staff seems to be positioning themselves for full restoration of CJ as president before the upcoming Pastor’s Conference, I am inclined to think giving any more stories to AoR would be a colossal waste of time.
Sadly, I suspect that they will weigh even the saddest tales and deem them irrelevant to the current assessment, which of course, focuses solely on Brent’s accusations of CJ. Those are the only issues they care about. So, this wider collection seems more like a ruse to appease the masses.
In the end, I’m guessing they will probably just kick back the stories to the local churches. And, I have a hard time believing the tales will be kept secret from all parties forever.
On the other hand, if you desire to stay in your local church and, the pastors at your church seem to sincerely want to hear you out and make healthy changes, that may be a more productive use of your time. My advice is to make sure one of your suggestions for them is a gradual movement toward more congregational involvement.
I am not saying any SGM church will end up being healthy enough to satisfy my desires but some of them are healthier to start with than CLC, Covenant Fellowship, the Phoenix church and many others. This is a very sick movement of churches and nothing but radical surgery and chemotherapy will suffice.
Perhaps I haven’t tuned in enough to hear Brent’s opinions on the Everyman experiences. Has he acknowledged the mishandling of sexual abuse? Has he admitted they had policies of turning on members who brought concerns? Has he admitted they used his 45 Signs of Pride to essentially ex-communicate anyone for anything? Has he taken the time to read anyone’s story? Has he been grieved and repented for his involvement specifically in these practices? Or, is he just attaching other people’s grievances to his charges to make it look like he’s representing everyone’s cause, not just his own?
Maybe I missed it. I’m just not always tuned in.
I guess I’m mixed up about the immature and inflammatory language he is using. It seems to really be juvenile and affects his credibility. He just lacks the dignity I would expect from someone who oversaw a nation of churches. Publicly communicating in this way is a career killer for someone in ministry. This is a man who looks like he is self-destructing. Was he always this way? That’s a pretty disturbing statement about SGM. Or is he falling apart and like all of us, has entered a season of temporary insanity while he sorts it all out? In which case, maybe there are some other former pastors who have successfully made it to the other side and are standing solidly on their own two feet who could better speak for Everyman?
AoR. “A” for what? Does that stand for Apostle? Oh, here we go again… :beat
Foot,
I was referring to Brent having integrity in regards to his heart, not what he believed (the SGM company stance, patriarchy, sexism, etc.) I definitely believe he has a lot to answer for. However, CJ & Dave & company just amaze me with their deceitfulness.
And Brent could’ve sent out those documents a couple years ago, before he actually lost his job…
Ambassadors
Foot-
A is for “ambassadors” of reconciliatiom – just a name. No power in the name.
From the viewpoint of one who today is very skeptical –
It seems to me that SGM is doing a lot of temperature-taking in this whole recon-silly-ation thing (trying really hard to avoid all thought of rectal thermometers, but failing). I believe some of the changes they have made in the AoR process have either been in direct response to the “evil blogs” or in response to questions they are being asked by members who are keeping an eye on the blogs or talking with their survivor friends. If I were in SGM leadership, I would have resources dedicated to following events on the blogs, gauging the general sentiment of the vocal opposition, and reporting back to me so that I could adjust my strategy if necessary, to help ensure the desired outcome.
Re: the AoR seminar. Like others, I don’t think that’s ever really been about group reconciliation in any way. Offering it up to the aggrieved was an afterthought – one more way to say later, “Look – we tried”. It’s really all about re-indoctrinating the pastors.
It’s no happy accident that AoR is executing this program, and it’s not like they’re really independent of Ken Sande and Peacemakers. They may be a separate business organization and focus on the Lutherans most of the time, but they use the same material, the same principles, and I believe some of their top people still work with/for Peacemakers part time. The compatibility of Peacemakers principles with the “worst sinner I know” approach to conflict (or, squelching conflict as it’s used by SGM) is critical to SGM leadership maintaining control. The Peacemakers (er, AoR) seminar at the Pastor’s Conference appears to be an introduction, or refresher, or remediation for failure to control things properly.
After all, if the pastors had done a good enough job of convincing everyone of how horrible a sinner they are, and how dare they talk about CJ’s or SGM leadership’s sins or pastoral abuse within SGM, and how dare they even think about looking at the evil blogs, why there wouldn’t be anywhere near the ruckus there is now. And for gosh sakes, those little specks of sin in SGM leadership like covering up child sexual abuse and blaming the victim, can’t compare to the huge log of being able to recognize B.S. when you see it, and the even bigger log of being willing to speak up about it. Along with a renewed focus on “gossip and slander” as SGM defines it, and a re-emphasis on church discipline for those who get out of line, SGM should be able to stabilize their faithful base of followers/tithers. Any sheep lost are just collateral damage.
That’s one reason I don’t think the AoR seminar or Group Reconciliation process has had much airplay in SGM churches – the somewhat-risky bet is that the pastors and SGM leadership will be able to get things under control, and that the bulk of the existing members will be compliant/docile/unquestioning enough to follow. I agree that the more they can make this about Brent the Raving Lunatic (and from an outsider’s view, Brent’s last blog post helped SGM out), the less questions they’ll have to field about other issues. Nothing to see here, folks. Just close your eyes, open your wallets and navel-gaze for a while. I think that’s critical at this juncture – CJ and SGM’s ability to stifle internal dissent and get things under control, sends a message to the Reformed Baptists and the like that SGM is really ready to sit at the grownups’ table for Thanksgiving dinner. Failure to do so may call their glorious future into question.
Re: the no-confidentiality-imposed Group Reconciliation screening-for-a-callback. As others have mentioned, SGM probably has a pretty good idea of how many ex-SGM’ers they have maimed over the years. But apart from the vocal dissenters on the blogs and those like ExCLC’er who remind them regularly, they may not be too sure how many of their spiritual roadkill have completely let SGM rigor mortis set in, and how many might, under the right circumstances, be willing to speak from beyond the SGM grave and call them to account. I’m sure they want to know that. They also want to know how many of the vocal survivors are willing to put enough skin in the game to engage with them in a forum where survivors can’t be dismissed as misguided, disgruntled voices muttering out of the bit-cloud.
Re: any reconciliation or arbitration process with AoR – am guessing in cases where those hurt can’t be cajoled or bullied into just letting it go, there will a multi-tiered strategy in place with SGM offering the minimum concession necessary to get their victims to “stop screaming and bleeding and just die already” – and there will be confidentiality agreements.
I really hope and pray that I’m wrong.
I realized my next to last paragraph in #31 didn’t come across very well, as I was trying to think from an SGM point of view (dangerous, I know). I did not mean to minimize (from my own perspective) in any way the sometimes extraordinary effort of survivors over the years to engage with SGM about their problems. But from an SGM leader’s perspective, they always call the shots as to how that engagement occurs (Brent’s still trying to).
Brent was at least integrous as far as the SGM system was concerned insofar as he expected and continued to expect and demanded and paid the price for demanding that CJ be held to the standard that CJ established.
Also, I don’t see how Brent can be said to be using the victims — what has he asked any of them to do?
And thirdly, this business of discounting someone’s testimony because they don’t present it perfectly/purely/with unmixed motives is just bogus. One of the wisest things my SGM pastor ever said to me was that I would never, ever do anything with pure motives; so I should just do what was right.
Brothers and Sisters,
A friend suggested I repost this comment again because it initially appeared at the tail end of the previous thread/topic. I would also recommend everyone going back and reading Irv’s post #389….. excellent, thoughtful, and insightful.
Irv,
The Lord has used your post (#389 previous topic) to give me fatih to share this prophetic vision, I received in September, with the larger body of Christ. I fear for SGM and would strongly encourage the churches to remove themselves from SGM oversight immediately, especially CLC. We must pray fervently that God opens their eyes. Without the supernatural intervention of God they will remain deceived. I too have registered with A of R and hope I will be one of the ones they choose to interview. Everyone……please pray that God will hand pick those He wishes to speak with A of R.
Btw, I sent this vision to the SGM board and some other pastors in SGM a couple of weeks ago. The email I wrote to them begins below…..
I wanted to pass on a vision I had the afternoon of 9/17/11. I believe the following vision applies to SGM as an organization, not to His people. I believe when God’s rebuke has passed, SGM will no longer exist as we know it. The churches that remain will either be independent or they will dissolve completely. His people will be rescued.
In a vision I saw a place at the bottom of the ocean. It was smooth and tranquil. Suddenly, the sea floor shifted violently and I saw a shock wave rise to the surface of the ocean. The wave started out small but quickly gained size, power, and speed as it began to travel across the surface of the water. The wave became massive. The force of it was frightening to behold. Soon it was enormous, but still far out at sea. This great tsunami wave of God’s rebuke was headed for land with amazing power and force. I was awestruck as it continued to gather momentum and finally turned my head in fear.
I believe the Lord is showing me, He has released the power of His rebuke that will cause SGM to be “destroyed—without remedy.” The Lord will no longer stay His hand. The fearful and awesome rebuke of the Lord is coming to SGM. Destruction is at hand, and nothing can stop it except complete and utter brokenness, repentance, and Godly sorrow. God will not be mocked. The Scripture says, “Whoever remains stiff-necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.” Proverbs 29:1
“Then the channels of the sea were seen,
and the foundations of the world were laid bare
at your rebuke, O Lord,
at the blast of the breath of your nostrils.” Psalm 18:15
“The stouthearted were stripped of their spoil;
they sank into sleep;
all the men of war
were unable to use their hands.
At your rebuke, O God of Jacob,
both rider and horse lay stunned.” Psalm 76:5,6
Wouldn’t it be something to interview some of the original Apostle’s! Perhaps, like Judas Iscariot. After all, he was with Jesus and held the money bag, for goodness sake. What more do you need? Oh, but don’t read your bible though. And, forget about the Apostle John, cause all he did was lean on Jesus’s heartbeat, mostly just listening, closest to the Master’s voice.
What good is it to be close to Jesus, when you have these other super Apostle’s running around who will gladly take your money from you and leave you wounded and bleeding? After all, they love the taste of blue ribbon sheep!
For those of you who do read your bible, “including the OT,” here is food for thought: I Sam 12:1-25.
You know, on second thought (which took place faster than Brent took to cash his last SGM check), I think I will stay with the King of kings, our Lord Jesus Christ! You know, be loyal to Him who died and rose from the dead. He seems to have staying power, what up with that? He must be GOD! Wow, He really did rise from the dead. He really did say, “Pay attention to what you hear” (Mk 4:-, Luke 8:17-18).
Ps 23:1, John 10:1-6… :word
Foot, I earned my BS in Biology, it was an attempt to lighten the mood a bit. I have never actually dissected a frog but if I did, I wouldn’t take the knife to one that had the capacity to be impressed (I’d kiss him before the wedding day and get my Prince Charming how’s that for bringing this segway back to the topic at hand.)
Anyway, I do not believe Brent or anyone else has to line up with my worldview but I need to condition my approval by noting that we part company over loads of important issues but, that being said, he is still light years closer to my respect than the other schmucks in the SGM system.
On Topic: I’d agree with “Just Sayin'” – IF the churches are keeping files on individual members it would be a huge problem to release them without the permission of the individuals.
I think to release files without member permission would be crazy – actually. In this litigious society? No Way.
I wonder if:
A) Brent kept personal files on members of his church.
B) If he took them with him when he left.
That would make me REALLY NERVOUS if I had been an attender at Brent’s church.
Okay, so stacking Brent (former A-Team, once considered as higher possible leadership role in SGM), next to the “others,” okay, it does take me a while to chew my food before I swallow. Wait, I still don’t get it.
Anyway, as the book of Hebrews points out, Jesus is better…I’ll take Jesus for eternity please, no cheap substitute hero will do. Be it A-Team to Z-Team. Only the genuine is worth it. Truth be known…or, as Paul syz in Galatians, “known by God.” But, that is another topic, perhaps, for another day.
I’m afraid Brent is playing us like a bunch of cards. Either he’s a troll on this site or he’s depending on others to link to his blog. I think his juvenile inflammatory speech is because he thinks we are idiots he can manipulate.
He’s the one who sounded the alarm about the confidentiality policies of Ambassadors of Reconciliation.
Everyone got all upset and emailed their pastors. A member asked Andrew on the SGM blog:
_____________
Member: By “confidential” do you mean that SGM won’t share the info we provide without our permission, or do you mean we are making a promise to keep the info confidential?
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Andrew Replied:
Hi —good question.
“Confidential” means that AOR won’t share any identifying information with SGM without a participant’s permission. This allows people to share things more comfortably for the purpose of giving SGM feedback.
When I asked Ted Kober to summarize the issue, here is what he said: “Those attending an interview will not be asked to sign a confidentiality agreement. Nevertheless, AoR will not report the identity of sources of the information it collects from the interviews without the express permission of the individuals. The statement currently proposed for the form states: ‘The general substance, but not identifying details, of information collected by the Ambassador team will be shared with SGM in a report. You may provide your name and contact information on this form, which will be helpful if the AoR Team has questions or if you request reconciliation assistance, but individual names will not be shared with SGM leadership unless you indicate otherwise.’”
In other words, the confidentiality is binding on AOR, not the person being interviewed.
Is that helpful?
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Member said:
That is wonderful news! I Please pass along my thanks to all involved with this decision.
________________
Andrew replied:
Member, I’m glad to hear this encourages you. I will let AOR know that you appreciate their stance. But to be fair to them, it was always their policy—not a change or new decision just for us. They have been doing this for a long time and seem to know well what helps people have faith to participate.
__________________
Brent then posts:
Monday, October 10, 2011 at 10:05AM
News Alert! Ambassadors of Reconciliation has suspended their requirement that participants in the Group Reconciliation Process be required to sign a non-disclosure agreement. This is good news!
I’d encourage people around the nation and world to participate as a result. It’s taken a lot of work and persistence but this lifting of AoR strictures allows people to share their concerns, observations, offenses, and grievances with AoR without taking an oath that restrains them from doing the same in others contexts.
Thanks to everyone who appealed to the SGM Board and AoR to lift these sanctions.Brent
______________
Three possible scenarios:
1. SGM lied.
2. Brent is uninformed and unreliable and sets off fire alarms without knowing all of the facts.
3. Brent is speaking in an inflammatory way to outrage the wounded people so that they spam their pastors to control this process. If that is the case, we should be insulted.
I think everything Brent says should be suspect. I don’t want to see people being used here.
I need to tell my story of spiritual abuse from MetroLife Church in Orlando, an SG church. I’m ready but I don’t want to waste time blogging it. The right people who can do something about it need to hear. Where can I go to advise Aof R?
Kris #4 I think you have a good hunch about SGM getting a big benefit if they can get a hold of the names of any of the aggrieve. The unfortunate truth is the SGM staff haven’t given us any good reason to trust them. One would have hoped they would have worked on the trust issue during this ‘time of reflection.’
just saying –
The whole “confidential” issue was not communicated very clearly in the original post by Dave H. So the question was quickly asked and answered which was good since SGM was only giving folks two weeks or less (didn’t look up dates) to sign up.
Don’t you think Brent’s first paragraph in his post on October 10 was partly sarcasm? And maybe he did assume confidentiality was required for both parties, since it was not clear in Dave’s post and it appears to be a requirement to him, personally.
just saying-
“I think everything Brent says should be suspect. I don’t want to see people being used.”
It seems that everyone here is already “suspect” of everything that comes out of SGM now and past. Many have also been “used, “abused,” and sent away. Have you been reading here?
Please at least treat everyone here like grown-ups who can read and weigh all the material. I would bet that everyone is probably praying and trusting the Holy Spirit to lead them as to what they should or shouldn’t do. Have a little faith in God just saying. Nothing starts or stops with SGM or Brent.
@43 should say
Many have “already” been “used,” . . .
“Kris #4 I think you have a good hunch about SGM getting a big benefit if they can get a hold of the names of any of the aggrieve. The unfortunate truth is the SGM staff haven’t given us any good reason to trust them. One would have hoped they would have worked on the trust issue during this ‘time of reflection.’”
Amen!!! They would be the last place I would recommend people who have been wounded BY THEM, go. How can there be reconciliation when they have shown over and over throughout this whole process they are not to be trusted?
Every move and tactic has screamed: Damage control.
Just sayin,
Who is paying AoR? And let’s think for a moment…how can they “facilitate” reconciliation between SGM an anonymous party?
What I find telling is that everyone assumed it meant they were not allowed to talk about what took place in their meetings. This only shows the good job sgm did on brainwashing people that negative truths are sinful and gossip.
When I read the participation form on AOR’s site I read it to mean confidentiality is required by me if I were to participate in a conciliation process with them. I also read it mean that if what I am bringing up involves a crime than confidentiality and agreement to not press charges becomes null and void. So, unless I’m stupid it is AOR themselves that need to make their agreement form more clear if one sided confidentiality (their’s) has been their policy all along, just sayin…