Todd Twining’s Guest Post From Brent’s Blog – A Great Summary
November 2, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
The other day, Brent Detwiler posted a message on his blog from Todd Twining, who is a songwriter and music teacher and used to be a pastor and worship leader at a Sovereign Grace Ministries church. I know that many of you have already seen Mr. Twining’s message, but because I thought he did such an excellent job of summing up the concerns of so many, I wanted to post it here as well.
You can read Brent’s introductory remarks at this link. There, Brent mentions that he had Mr. Twining’s permission to share the following email:
From: Todd Twining
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 2:43 PM
To: Dave Harvey
Subject: My Participation in Group ReconciliationGood afternoon, Dave,
I trust you are enjoying the grace of God. I am praying for you.
The lifting of the confidentiality agreement by AoR represents the removal of a key stumbling block for many of us. I think it represents a step in the right direction for SGM.
Again, as I have stated before, I deeply love Sovereign Grace and wish things were different. I do wish you all the best in your endeavors, but cannot in conscience and in good faith participate at this time. Here are my remaining reasons:
- I do not agree with the way the process has been handled. I see too much control and feel the process is rigged. Perhaps that is critical judgment, I think it is survival.
.- The things I have already submitted and the personal interviews I have already done with CJ, yourself and Aron Osborne are sufficient to air my grievances and complaints. You know what my issues are and you know where to find me.
.- While I am thankful I have been heard, I am not confident that in the things I have already written and shared that I have been listened to.
.- Being asked to listen to the conflict teaching is insulting to those of us who have been through years of teaching on conflict resolution ad naseum. BCF, CCEF, Peacemakers. While I would hope you know I love humility, that may be more humiliating to the parties who have been offended and wounded than it is helpful. Perhaps I am wrong there.
.- When I left Orlando, it was in part because I did not agree for a variety of reasons with the process of having to interview with an evaluation team who were coming to town. I saw a similar failed process unfold in Mooresville. Those stated reasons would continue to be the same concerns I have had all along in what I perceive to be the imbalanced processes for my brethren like Dave Bendinelli, Dan Walsh, Trevor Haines, Keith Jacob, Paul Palmer, Brent Detwiler, George Harrington, Gene Prince, Dan McIntosh, etc. I would continue to have those same concerns.
.- Brent needs to be listened to and fully involved. He needs to be able to call witnesses. Without it, this is not a balanced adjudication process. I believe Brent’s requests to be reasonable. I struggle with why SGM cannot just humbly submit to his requests. It would seem to me for the glory of Christ and His Church that this would be the way to come to the table.
.- My past attempts have been in large part, in my opinion, fruitless, exhausting and honestly disappointing. Financially, the stress and strain on my life and health have been too detrimental for me to want to return to the table any time soon. I am grateful for your offer to help us financially get there [to the Pastors Conference] but I have no vision for what lies beyond getting there.
.- What wrong is SGM currently owning at this point? What error? I hear about a lot of changes being made, but do not hear admissions of sin, confessions with penitence and restitution to the aggrieved parties. I think you all know where to find us. We have already come to you so to be called to come again to you seems out of order. It is your turn to come to us.
.- Where is CJ Mahaney at this point? Is he still a member in good standing with CLC? Is he attending Capitol Hill Baptist Church still? Has the SGM Board given him the green light to preach in this hour? His absence is crucial and his unwillingness to stay involved in the local church [i.e., Covenant Life Church] through thick and thin is out of line. Until he returns to the table, we should not have to.
.- We (former pastors and members) were all asked to stay and work things out. Some of us, like George Harrington, stayed for 4 long years before finally leaving Grace Covenant Church of Jacksonville. We were all urged and admonished to stay in the local church like myself, for example, who stayed 5 years in the Atlanta church after the Tomczak debacle. Then, after a year at the Pastors College, was sent to Orlando. As problems arose on the pastoral team, we persevered 4 long years and to be honest with you, I can never get those years back for my family. We hope we have learned the lessons of the wilderness, but I am not eager to take my family back into the wilderness at this point.
So I pray you will pardon me, but I do not have the grace or strength to help you right now. Perhaps, if the process changes and I see a willingness on the part of SGM to listen to Brent, who was with you for over 3 decades, then I would have some hope that you might listen to me, who was with you for half that time.
Your friend,
Todd
—————————–
Mr. Twining was, as I mentioned, a pastor at a Sovereign Grace church, so his circumstances with respect to the Ambassadors of Reconciliation process are different than those of the average former SGMer. But I can’t think of too many areas of concern that he did not address.
What’s your opinion?
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
ExClcer – from last thread.
I have a suggestion for you. Since your emails were returned due to incorrect addresses, why don’t you either ask Brent Detwiler for email addresses via the email on his blog. Or in the event he doesn’t want to do that, just ask him to forward your letter. He has the correct emails. You could even reference your story from this site or attach that to your letter as well. I am serious here. Brent may help you. Just a thought.
ex’s mom 467 from the last thread – An investigation would imply someone investigates — goes out and searches for and finds out the facts (not hard to come by here). An insurance company sits back and takes applications for claims. I don’t want to be part of the farce. I have no need to see “biblical justice” done….I prefer to see real actual justice done, or real accountability — to the people. I have no use for “reconciliation”… I want those accountable to take responsibility, and if they do so only because AoR tells them to, that’s hardly genuine, and AoR does not count as any kind of real authority I would recognize as being sufficient. But that’s me. Write AoR if you want to, but don’t hold your breath. Call me pessimistic if you will, but I think I’m a realist.
Papist – thanks for the idea….it appears to have gone through to at least some, maybe 10 or so of the 28, and hasnt bounced back from JL, GR, or GL, so that’s enough for me. If the “mail demon” (as one of my woefully PC illiterate friends calls it, lol) sends it back from those addys I may just take your suggestion. Thanks again.
There were MANY great comments on the previous thread. I’ve been really busy over the past few days and have not had the time to interact much, but I wanted to welcome the new commenters. Thanks to “Looking Forward,” who shared a bit about what it was like for her family to leave SGM.
Also, Lynn asked,
Interesting question. Just today, someone wrote to ask about editing comments here. I was telling that person that while I sometimes edit or remove comments, I generally much prefer leaving everything as it is. Not only can editing really disrupt the flow of conversation – I think it’s also something of an integrity issue.
Why I am confident that at least some SGM churches do edit the recordings of sermons/teachings is as follows:
Over the years, I have heard from several people who have “served” in sound ministries at various SGM churches. They have shared about the practice of editing messages to remove portions that the pastor wanted removed for one reason or another.
Another indication of the practice of editing has been the sorts of responses I’ve gotten from some of the SGM leaders who have interacted with me. One expressed his gratitude because I left his comments exactly as he’d submitted them. Another pastor requested that I edit or delete comments when a certain sensitive topic was mentioned. I get the clear impression that SGM pastors are quite accustomed to exerting that level of control over publications.
Finally, in what I know was meant to be a very kind gesture, Josh Harris himself suggested editing the sound file of one of his CLC messages to remove a couple of lines that had offended many of us here. I doubt he would have made such an offer if that level of editing weren’t something CLC had already done before.
From the member meeting:
GODLY SPEECH [Speaker: Grant Layman]
“-The third group consists of people who are dismayed that other members are upset with leaders and asking questions and voicing their opinions. These are often people who have stayed away from most of the information online. They’re waiting for a process to unfold, but they’re being greatly tempted by other members who are struggling and voicing strong opinions about the situation.”
If Josh is truly ‘getting it’ he would have been shaking his head at that part of the long winded speech on how to play nice. He would have been saying to himself, “nooo-that’s too much kool-aid, someone might taste it!”
Anyway, I thought someone at CLC might have commented on that before going to a new post. But I do realize it’s one of those ‘smoooth’ concoctions of a sentence that is designed to mask the ungodly speech. Does anyone know if Josh approves the speeches of his pastors before they recite them?
ExCLCer,
Thank you for sharing your letter with us. May your voice be heard.
I wasn’t meaning for any kind of investigation, or even reconciliation..I am not even expecting A of R to do anything, and certainly dont want to meet them! However, I thought 5 years had a good suggestion on the last thread (post 420 of last thread). By sending A of R something, it is further documented, as well as A of R being “responsible” to act one way or another. I dont expect it to change with any of them, but I can see where it could be of use to have more documentation of them being told, and knowing, yet still doing nothing. Just a thought..I am considering it myself..I would not go to any meetings with them unless I would be allowed to bring a lawyer of my own choosing, though! I doubt they would agree to that. But, I am not interested in meeting with them anyway.
That word “tempted” bothers me.
It places the “struggling” members, the ones who are “voicing strong opinions,” in the role of –well, a Tempter. Someone enticing people to sin.
:(
Now hear this, Mr. Layman! Struggling and voicing strong opinions is not sin! It is not “tempting” others to sin! It may irritate and upset and disquiet them, especially if they would rather not struggle themselves, but it is NOT SIN and it is NOT TEMPTING! :mic
And sometimes people NEED to wrestle with difficult and disquieting things!
Also, I cannot yet think of rejoicing that CLC is sending a “missionary” team overseas. CLC is too close to SGM. CLC was the nucleus for all of it. It is far, far too early for CLC to be sending people overseas. Or for SGM to be sending people overseas.
You can’t just say, gee, one of our problems was not supporting overseas missions. Let’s fix that right now! Let’s send a missionary or three!
No. First address the deep systemic problems.
If people are eager to support missionaries, let them look at the many trustworthy mission organizations that exist already. But neither SGM nor CLC need to be sending missionaries now.
Exclcer: On your letter from last post–Thanks for posting it here. Also, you may want to consider sending it Return Receipt Requested, so you will have proof of who signed for it. Then keep the receipts each year until you and your family receive complete detailed apologies.
Looking Forward: (from last post)
I am so glad that you are “looking forward” and moving on with your life; this almost EXACTLY mirrors my family’s experience. And I really like your take on a “return to a simpler and kinder understanding of church and scripture.”
Beautiful. I am going to ponder on THAT!
Luna Moth, I totally agree! That may be the quickest and easiest thing to fix, but not the one to happen first!
Luna Moth,
It just floors me every time I hear or read those kinds of comments in SGM’s leaders’ speeches, it’s like they WANT to stir up strife. They are the one’s tempting actually. Very cultish and abusive. I used to watch my brother-n-law torture his young children with stirring up strife in them. It seemed as though he would do it so that he could show his authority by yelling at or spanking them after they clearly were only reacting to what HE had stirred up. Funny, he’s a Calvary Chapel pastor, hmmm.
It is heartbreaking to think of someone doing that to young children. But it just stinks for someone to provoke people that way.
The discussion about godly talk reminds me of my CLC days. I wouldn’t slander or question – at least only when I was with my friends – I just knew better than that. But I was often honest and open and would make a lot of people look at me funny.
I’m getting a little spooked on facebook lately because of the many CLC people who are on there. Without being specific, some people who might be aware of one of the abuse situations, probably not when it occurred, but definitely not know. I keep reminding myself that I have the chose of who to friend. I don’t want to support ignorance in dealing with child abuse.
To wrap up from the previous thread……
Please know—–ExClcer———-that pastors on the CLC members blog have claimed to put in “hundreds of hours” reconciling with people like you….. Hundreds of hours, they say.
Obviously, those “hundreds of hours” did not include reading and responding to your letters every year.
At the members meeting last Sunday night, Josh et. al. said that CLC needs to reform itself just as SGM does. I hope that CLC can spend less energy on CYA and more energy on eating some humble pie and contacting YOU.
This is so true. There has been no specific, public repentance of SIN by any SGM pastor, even in the face of the public outcries on this and other blogs, Brent’s docs, and numerous comments at Fam Mtgs and on the SGM blog. The vacuum of taking ownership for their wrongs done to others–coming from men who have preached and taught for years on the need for clear, specific repentance when dealing with any sin–screams that they don’t believe that they have done anything wrong!!
Todd Twinings: just another example of SGM/CLC spiritual roadkill.
Examples of Spiritual Roadkill:
1. Todd Twining and his “4 long years in the wilderness with his family”
2. Victims forced to sit across the table from their sexual perpetrators to accept apologies
3. Battered wives excommunicated for going to the police and not returning home
4. Scores and scores of teens and young adults who now want NOTHING to do with organized religion
5. Women labeled as ‘unsubmissive’ for speaking their minds.
6. Wives told that they need to have more sex with their husbands so their husbands stop molesting little girls.
Thanks, SGM, for all the memories……….
To ‘Looking Forward’ — Your comment # 457 on the previous post thread undid me. I read it aloud to someone and choked up at the end. It was a holy moment. That last paragraph — that cost you something. I pray it brings you something, as well. May our loving Father make all things right.
Papist, #1 — I had the same thought.
Looking Forward — Somewhat sad but not surprised to hear that, as a care group leader, you were taught how to shun (although I m sure it was couched in careful language to sound like a good thing, to avoid corrupting influences and strife, to ‘release’ them to their new churches so that you could instead put the focus ‘where God wants it to be’, on our own dear local church, etc., etc., etc.)
Thanks for confirming that.
I’m so glad to read Todd’s comments. When he left his FL church, I was aghast, mystified, and couldn’t fathom what could have happened. Surely, ‘they’ wouldn’t want to get rid of someone like Todd. But then again, although I met Todd a time or two, I do not know him.
It seems they want to get rid of well, in the final analysis, everyone — pastors, aPostles, care group leaders, worship leaders, families. The ax falls often and falls hard on the necks of those who sacrifice much to support a system that kills them.
Reading all the flowery SGM rhetoric and trying to cut through the ridiculous usage of things like ‘tempt you’, is an exercise in frustration that tempts me (couldn’t resist) to cuss, scream, and throw the ipad out the window. Every time I read one of Brent’s long email exchanges, all I can think is that these guys have made idols out of religious excess, and each one wants to make sure his idol is more ornate than Brent’s, or Dave’s, or Seejay’s They’re all in competition with each other to see who can be the most ‘godly’. I hope to never use the word ‘godly’ again, and if I never read it again it will be too soon.
I will be so glad when this is all over.
Nickname said:
“It seems they want to get rid of well, in the final analysis, everyone — pastors, aPostles, care group leaders, worship leaders, families. The ax falls often and falls hard on the necks of those who sacrifice much to support a system that kills them.”
They only typically only want to get of leaders who think for themselves and question. If you “toe” their party line and especially don’t question what their pope says you will be fine. It is only when you fall out of line and have the audacity to try and think for yourself.
Here is an intersting by Chuck Colson. He is talking about “breaking the spiral of silence.” Though Chuck Colson is talking more about politics it certainly has some application with SGM. It is now obvious that SGM suffered from a “spiral of silence” that recently showed its “fruit” and people are now beginning to speak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngj5W4KZW-s
(Sorry to hog the comments. Been thinking of some things all day and just got a chance to spend the time.)
As you probably know, on the SGM blog, Dave Harvey has had a post up entitled “Evaluating Brent Detwiler’s allegations.” http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Evaluating-Brent-Detwilere28099s-allegations.aspx#disqus_thread
Interestingly, it went up the day after Brent posted “A Rare View Inside SGM.”
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2011/10/27/a-rare-view-inside-sgm.html
As soon as I saw that, it felt to me as if the gloves were coming off. To me, that was Dave Harvey’s way of saying, “Oh, yeah, buddy! Well, two can play that game!”
Of course, one issue that seems clear to many of us here but not to those ‘inside the Beltway” is the difference between substance and style.
Brent pounds the bench repeatedly with a gavel, calling for justice, and the more he is ignored, the harder and faster he hammers away. Many people — including, apparently, many SGM pastors — are annoyed and offended by his style, so they minimize or ignore his substance. Meanwhile, Dave Harvey speaks soothingly, smiles ruefully, shakes his head sadly, blows smoke rings ever so stylishly — and slips a finely-honed, hidden blade under the rib cage and into the heart.
Anyway, a comment I read by the unctuous Andrew has been bugging me all day. To a comment from a reader protesting the Board’s actions and requesting that Brent be allowed back into the AoR process (“Can the offer be accepted since he [Brent] is willing to walk through this door now?”), Andrew replied thus:
The oiliness of it oozed out at me. Reading between the lines, I read this as: “Hey, man, Brent’s losing it! In fact, he’s completely lost it. Seriously, just ask anybody who’s talked to the guy lately. I mean, I admit, he maybe had some helpful observations to bring back in the day, but, dude, he’s totally gone over the edge. Loose cannon, man — dude’s a loose cannon.”
So, as I ponder, it occurs to me what that reminds me of!
Has anybody here ever seen the sort of movie where a psychiatrist wants to get rid of his inconvenient and unwanted wife while getting away with it and making himself look like the loving but beleaguered victim? So he slowly and skillfully messes with her head until she questions her sanity, then defends it, and finally goes completely mad — or so he has convinced the watching world?
Yeah, like that.
String Brent along, shut him up, alternately placate him with promises or put off him with passive-aggressive spin. Bait him, stonewall him, slowly widen the circle of those who hear of ‘concerns’ for Brent, drop a few well-chosen words or things almost-but-not-quite said. then when is beside himself, say, “See? I didn’t want to say anything, but Brent, well, he has –issues.”
Do you think they practice doing this on purpose, or does it just come naturally? :scratch
About the Grant Layman portion of the CLC family meeting, where he gave instructions on “godly speech”…
Maybe I’m wrong, but wow, it strikes me that SGM leaders have a pathological need to try to control what their people say, as well as how their people might say it. It’s interesting to observe how, even in the midst of a bunch of messed-up stuff that is arguably the sole responsibility of the pastors, these same guys just cannot resist any opportunity to make people yet more hesitant about speaking out.
I know that some members are OK with having to sit through a lecture on “godly speech.” But I wonder, does anyone join me in thinking that those kinds of tutorials are totally out of place when given by the same guys whose decisions and behavior are the very reasons why people might have something to talk about in the first place?
I mean, it seems to me there ought to be that moment where these pastors realize that for better or worse, when it comes to problems with their leadership, they’ve forfeited the right to instruct their people about how to talk (or not talk) about the conflicts. Whether or not people speak of CLC’s issues in a way that SGM pastors think is “godly” should be the least of their concerns. Addressing the issues and fixing them ought to be their only focus right now.
What’s especially interesting is that because of SGM’s redefinitions of “gossip” and “slander,” and because of SGM’s unhealthy stifling of just about ANY feedback regarding church matters that wasn’t wholeheartedly supportive and positive, SGM’s members tend to need help in the opposite direction. SGM’s members have often struggled with being able to articulate what was wrong…and with being able to put their problems into words and then be bold enough to vocalize them. Certainly, after such a long history of over-zealous teachings about gossip, redefined to include anything even remotely negative, the LAST thing that SGMers need is yet more instruction on how to speak out…instruction that is given by the guys who have the greatest reasons to DESIRE to shut people up.
Great job Todd! I agree with everything you listed. I wish you and all of us who gave the best years of our lives to SGM, could somehow get them back. That is one of the great sorrows I have.
Todd, thank you for the inspiration you were to us in worship. We never knew you as a pastor. But, I wish you well in whatever endeavors God brings your way. also I will pray for healing for you and that God ‘will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten.” Joel 2:2
Luna Moth #8-With sending people over sees for missions, where are they sending them? I question it because sgm does have a church in Africa. So I’m not really sure if I call it missions. If they are going only to invite people to a sgm church or to help them, then how is that missions? I know that at covfel for spring break, they would send them to New Orleans to support the church there. Also, before hurricane katrina happened, they sent a team to New York to get the word out about that church. Do you or anyone know exactly where they are going? I hope and pray they are going somewhere were the gospel is never heard?
Argus said,
I wrote this the other day:
At this point, considering the SGM board’s obvious desperation to minimize Brent’s charges and keep CJ at the helm and on the speaking circuit, it would not at all surprise me if they were engaging in the crazy-making deliberately. Sadly, though, at the same time it seems like Brent is playing right into their hands. Some of his blog posts over the past couple of months – especially the one with the string of emails – have made him come across as singularly obsessed, and not in a good way.
But yeah, I think there’s likely some deliberate crazy-making going on. Like I said, the SGM board is obviously very eager for all this to be swept under the rug as quickly as possible…with as little fallout for CJ as possible. For whatever reason, the SGM board must feel like their “movement” needs CJ.
Kris,
#23 – WOW…..WOW…..!!!!!! :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap
Argus #22-Brents blog entry for “A Rare View inside SGM” makes me think of my friends while in high school worked at jobs like mcdonalds or any other fast food place. When I would suggest we go somewhere for lunch, they wouldn’t want to because they knew what went on in there. They knew what it looked like from the inside. And Brent knows very well and so do other former pastors how things really do look from the inside. And I said this before, but said it again, if Brent was the only one who thought this way, I think he would have just given up by now. There are other former pastors who feel the same. Brent knows he has a case and knows its strong, if he didn’t have support, I don’t think he would not be doing all this work.
Kris, #23, I hear you!
I think they probably think they covered that when Robin Boisvert spoke, and especially when he said, “We believe pastoral discernment at times calls for forbearance rather than correction (Colossians 3:12-13, Ephesians 4:2).”
But, yeah, most of the rest of the comments and instructions about speech took away whatever liberty a statement like that makes.
Maybe it’s that bizarre SGM death grip of control thing, slowly loosening its hold finger by finger. From the context, I gather that the ‘talk’/’don’t talk’ camps of CLC are at odds, and those who wat the cozy safeness of being told how to think and mindibg all the rules are tattling to the pastors, wanting someone to bring the hammer down on the ‘naughty’ people.
Straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.
It’s like they aren’t used to breathing free, fresh air, so they are still afraid to breathe too deeply.
Kris #23 I think the ‘little speech on godly speech’, given by Grant was sort of a way to throw a bone to both CJ and Gary and another one to the ‘ostriches’ in CLC; those members who continue to put their heads the sand and not hear anything about anything. There are LOTS of members in this subgroup.
I envy you that you probably can not fathom the environment around here right now. Nearly everyone is upset about some thing or another. You can bring up something as neutral as the weather and run the risk of offense (I’m only slightly exaggerating). This crisis has strained every relationship and the pastors are fully aware of it. They are working a lot of overtime calming people down.
Although I agree with you that the pastors are exceedingly out of line to continue to tell us what to think or do, in this case they seem to be asking everyone to be sensitive to those in the church that may not agree on all the issues.
Tonight I went to my mid week service at this new church I have been going to, it may end up being the one I stay at. I asked the pastor about children being molested in the church and what would happen. He said he cant really say what he would do for a hypthetical question, which is true. He did say if he has a woman go to him and say my husband is hitting me and then the husband says she is bi-polar and is on medicine. He wasn’t saying he would believe the husband, he was more saying he would have to look into it. I asked him about what if someone said their spouse was molesting their child, would you be mad if they called the police and he said no. It is true though with hyportheitical questions, you could say you would do one thing and then it happens and you do the other.
Kris – #23 – :word
I read the part of the transcript about the members-only blog ..with NO pastors allowed? That must just make some of the controlling old timers CRAZY! They can’t even see who might be sinning?!
The quote from Grant just seemed like religious gobbildeegook… even in the midst of trying to say we understand some of you want to be informed, they STILL can’t resist judging motives!
they’re being greatly tempted by other members who are struggling and voicing strong opinions about the situation.”
Huh?? Who is he critical of here? those who want their leaders to spoon feed them the info? Or those who have the audacity to find out, form or even voice strong opinions?
Who remembers all the nice sweet, innocent and kind things said about poor Todd and his lovely family who were leaving FL and moving because….?? wanting to be closer to parents? or some lame excuse like that? Did he have a gag order attached to some sort of payment arrangement? Poor guy. I really do feel for him, based on what refuge bloggers said about him. But I hate the deception and gag order. THAT is the hugest, best part of Brent’s disclosures. Shining a hallogen light on the inner workings of these tyrants. :barf:
(Lynn #25:) I hope and pray they are going somewhere were the gospel is never heard?
NO! NO!! NO!!! May it never be!!
At least not until those sent out have truly, truly decompressed from the deep and serious problems of SGM!!
NO, NO, NO, may they NOT go to where the Gospel has never been, bringing the SGM “gospel”!!
It is by the mercy of God that SGM has not gone to unreached people groups.
Kris, YES and AMEN!!
YES!!!
YES, this is true.
Perhaps they were trying to “throw a bone” to CJ and Gary, as you said, Persona–or trying to give a space for each of the three categories–but wow, did Mr. Layman ever make it clear by his choice of words which category he was not in favor of!
Which is something I have heard done before, in SGM.
(last post of the night — sorry!)
Kris, #26, I missed that previous post, but now I have to find that movie!
About Todd Twining: I am so sad that SGM has tossed aside so many faithful brothers and sisters with walked with God in Spirit and in truth. It must grieve the Lord. SGM has much for which to answer.
About the CLC meeting, I think Grant Layman gave away more of his thoughts than he intended to do. Notice the part of his talk where he mentions three groups of CLC members. I used to teach literary analysis for a living, and I got pretty good at reading between the lines. I noted some telling phrases:
Of the second group, Layman doesn’t say they are concerned about allegations that have been raised, but rather about issues that have been revealed. In other words — he accepts the truth of the charges and thinks they ought to be addressed. He goes on to say that those who have read the stuff online (he says ‘documents’ because saying ‘blogs’ caused an uproar last time) are the ones who know what’s going on and are, therefore, right to be concerned.
Of the third group, he says that the people who have (purposely) stayed away from the online info just don’t get it and are freaking out that other people are *gasp!* upset with their fearless LEADERS and are *oh NOES!* asking questions and voicing opinions. They don’t want the paradigm to shift — it makes them nervous. They will let the leaders deal with things and tell them what to think. (OK, I’m being snarky there.)
Clearly,Grant Layman’s sympathies are with the second group. :D
Touchy, since he is C.J.’s brother-in-law. However, he is from the other side of the Mahaney duo. I’m not trying to be crass when I say that he does not sleep with someone who has loved and accommodated C.J. her whole life. Maybe he doesn’t like C.J.’s impact on his sister, or maybe he just likes truth.
It might make for some awkward family holidays coming up soon.
Kris,
Funny (maybe not so) i thought of the movie Gas Light before you mentioned it…
Yes, Brent, and i do not blame him, as i have done the same in related situations, is letting his emotions get the best of him…
At first, the docs spoke for themselves, and he seemed pretty even keeled, as i recall…
But he has been losing it a bit lately… and does sound like a crazy dude…
I know he is not… but SGM will be able to point to all of that – they have done it to me…
Some on this blog, lately, have told Brent to take a break, i think this is why…
Just when CLC does what many here have wanted, which is begin to change, there is far too much criticism. Can’t we take a wait-and -see stance and actually wait and see what happens, instead of finding fault with every detail. No matter what CLC pastors decide to do, there will be some who will be taking an ‘I told you so’ attitude. Maybe they are trying to steer around that in the ‘speech’ speech. Maybe some don’t need guidance in this area, but others do.
God is at work and who can fault that!
Argus–Maybe so. The phrases you bold are certainly interesting.
However, that word “tempted” is at the very least an SGM buzzword which needs to be tossed out. Because it does seem to cast aspersions on those who are wrestling with the issues rather than wishing they would just go away.
And whatever people say last tends to stick in the minds of their hearers.
Well, perhaps Mr Layman is signaling his sympathy with the wrestlers. (She says, with a wary eye.)
Oswald, I am going to speak as I see necessary. Because I am changing, too.
If CLC is determined to follow God and change in His way, they will not let my challenges or others’ challenges deter them.
Thanks Oswald!!! I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Grant was explaining all the different thought and types of perspectives in CLC right now. There are still a lot of folks with their head in the sand and still support the old school SGM mentality. You can tell if you listen to the audio and the applause during some of the times when they talked positively about SGM
This was part of the CLC Family Meeting statement posted online:
“Gary’s concerns emphasize the fact that Scripture constrains us to keep matters limited to those parties involved. Scripture texts such as Matthew 18 and 1 Timothy 5 call for a fair and appropriately private process of correcting a brother and weighing a charge against an elder. We agree with those texts. But, that’s not what was happening in our members’ meetings. Corrections and charges had already become public, and CJ had confessed to certain sins and leadership failures. He asked forgiveness of our church for the effect of those sins on us.
We don’t believe that Scripture restricts involved parties from discussing among themselves the effects of a leader’s confessed sins.”
I also listened to the actual meeting. This may have been mentioned before but it really doesn’t surprise me that Gary Ricucci would push for little public disclosure and discussion about Mahaney’s sin. Even if he wasn’t Mahaney’s brother in law (wife is CJ’s sister) Ricucci apparently has his own “skeletons in the closet” that wouldn’t want discussed. Just what ExClcer’s Mom reported on how Gary Ricucci mishandled Dave A molesting his step daughter is quite the example not to mention other reported cases on this blog which means I am sure there others that aren’t reported.
Thus figuratively speaking Gary must live in quite the glass house and wants to discourage anyone from throwing stones at anyone’s house or his house might be next to be hit with stones.
Also it looks like Gary (like Mahaney) only believes a portion of I Timothy 5. As has been discussed before, the passage does talk about not receiving an accusation but also says those (elders) that continue in sin to rebuke in the presence of all. Mahaney clearly continued in his sin and this rebuke in the presence of all should be applied to Mahaney.
Maybe Ricucci should read what Calvin wrote about those who only teach the “don’t receive” part of I Tim 5
“Whenever any measure is taken for the protection of good men, it is immediately seized by bad men to prevent them from being condemned*”
It sounds like Gary Ricucci is one of the bad men Calvin talked about.
You can read more about this here:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/07/20/mahaneys-chicanery-regarding-calvin/
(okay, this is my OTHER last post tonight.)
Luna, I don’t think Grant was TRYING to send a signal. I just think that he unconsciously revealed his sympathies. (I think I remember reading that he was Josh’s ‘second’ in the matter of C.J. vs. Josh, which would also back up that idea.)
I think the use of ‘tempted’ here is just a lingering SGMism that comes automatically after all this time. It is often a code word typical of SGM’s odd linguistic affections. I don’t put any stock in it in this case. (Sometimes I do, though, depending upon context.) In this case, I think ‘greatly tempted by’ is a gentle euphemism for ‘going ballistic over’ or ‘having a meltdown about.’
People seldom change overnight, and organizations are even more difficult to turn around. The previous momentum must be redirected while cultural inertia resists every inch. Like a large ship changing course, it’s a process that happens by slo-o-o-w degrees, that sends shudders through the hull and churns up the waters and leaves a turbulent wake. It takes skill, precision, and teamwork.
I think being at CLC right now must feel a bit like living through a slow-motion movie explosion or navigating a mine field. Crazy times. Life is messy and liberty is always risky. Some people just want to make it stop and all go away like it was before when everything was clappy-happy, while, for others, progress can’t happen fast enough.
I think the CLC pastors are trying to find their own course through the waters and trying to keep things from blowing up in the meantime. I think they are treading caustiously, trying to sooth everybody, asking them to understand and forbear with one another.
Are they there yet? No. But in process? I’d say yes, so far. We’ll see how far they go in turning the ship around.
I think something that is still missing is remorse…from each and every leader who has harmed the flock, no matter how low on the totem pole.
Then..and only then.. can we ‘rebuild the temple walls’ or ‘welcome revival’ and manage to ‘not throw the baby out with the bathwater…’ all quotes culled from recent sermons of Joshua..
All right, so I think it might be appropriate for me to share a bit more of my history, because while I am a huge fan of critical thinking I also know how easily that can drift into cynicism. And I think it would be worthwhile also to point out that what is most horrifying about evil, what is most horrifying about sin, is that it is so mundane. Give an ordinary man power over others, and his mundane acts of sin compound their effect–but in their inception are not so awful, really quite understandable given a certain train of logic.
What I am getting at is that I get this sense that some of you view these pastors as almost radioactive: to touch anything close to SGM is to risk your very life and spiritual health. Does this not sound pharisaical? I admit that I have a hard time calling SGM a “cult,” something established to further the ends of the few through the expense of the many by way of extreme deceit, cloistering, and manipulation. My own view is that SGM is “corrupt,” much in the same way that the Catholic church was–it was not always the monster it now is.
I am not saying give the pastors who have been brought up here a free pass–they must be held accountable for the wrongs they have done, and they must repent and in many cases should step down from leadership. Also, I think that any view that is declaratively “excited” about this present time for SGM and what changes will occur in it is either hopelessly naive or deceitful about what he or she really thinks.
But I think that hope should not be thrown away when it comes up, however fleeting it is, and I think that the last members’ meeting at CLC demonstrates the right sort of hope. How unthinkable would it have been to imagine “Timothy” telling off “Paul” in front of that church even a few years ago? To openly say, “This church may split from the organization that it has hosted for many years.” I would want to ask the posters and readers here who continue to warily eye Josh Harris to consider that he was groomed for YEARS to become C.J.’s avatar, that the kind of manipulation he has no doubt received in all his “training” probably pales in comparison to what most SGM members and castaways alike have experienced. And now he is making a stand–a shaky, unsure stand, against that sort of programming. The Spirit is at work in the midst of a dark place for something like this to happen, make no mistake. I believe we should take heart.
But I have digressed a bit from my original intent–to share more of my personal history. Well, from age 5 to age 28 I attended the SGM church in Pasadena, which for many years even after Che Ahn’s departure was called Abundant Life Community Church.
This place, ALCC, (I still love how that sounds, trips right off the tongue) was very colorful as a church, and I mean that with both good and bad connotations–some folks there were just eclectic, others were wolves. But it was a passionate, lovely mess. I am very sorry to read stories from Happymom and Wallace describing Mark Mullery as being cold to their plight–I have spoken with him a few times in recent years visiting Virginia, and he was not always so stifled as a human being as he is now. (Which reminds me, I need to try and get in touch with his eldest son, another disaffected casualty of SGM culture)
It was like watching a little puppy bouncing up and down for a treat to see him preach; Mark was such a firecracker! And I remember Craig Cabaniss being warm and funny, Che Ahn being a bit full of himself but a very sweet man. (I apologize for not being more substantive; most of these memories are from when I was a grade schooler) And Lou Engle–well, talk about somebody who was charismatic! This is the sort of guy who would send John MacArthur running out of a room…
So anyway, a lovely mess is how I describe ALCC as I remember it prior to 1994, the year that the “Toronto Blessing” happened across the nation. Then things started to just become a mess. And for the next year and a half order went out the window (which sounds actually refreshing given what SGM has become, but it’s not fun over such a long period of time). Did the Spirit do amazing things? Absolutely. He baptized me with Himself that year, and spiritual healing and empowerment occurred on a MASSIVE scale. But the flock I was part of didn’t do so great with it. Mullery had some issues with it from the beginning, though he wasn’t blind to how God was moving and didn’t (for the most part) try to quelch what the Spirit was doing.
I do have a memory of meeting for a special prayer time, where C.J. Mahaney had come to visit us in California (and my dad and his graphic artist friend helped design a cardboard prop of C.J.’s head superimposed on Jean-Luc Picard’s body :D ). The order of things at such prayer times was to listen to the Spirit–that was about it. Lots of praying over other people, so at one point as many folks in the room were “manifesting,” I was going around praying (I think I was ten at the time) for a few folks, and I happened to see C.J. Mahaney sitting on the floor, rocking back and forth intensely. It felt right for me to go up, lay hands on him, and pray for him to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I was nervous as heck, and whether or not it was a manifestation C.J. never stopped rocking back and forth, his arms wrapped around his knees, and after a minute or so I departed to pray for another person. But I do recall hearing C.J. praying to receive from the Spirit as I prayed over him.
Anyway, things began to go south quickly in terms of leaders being in agreement with one another after that year and a half, and I’ll just say “John Arnott” and let you Google that if you want to hear all the outer history. But in terms of what it meant for PDI and in particular for ALCC, it meant that leaders were in open opposition to one another and eventually at ALCC the tension became too much.
Do I know the real story, full disclosure? Nope, and I doubt that if I asked for the details from those involved I would actually get fully honest and open answers. But from where I stood and what I heard, Che Ahn and Lou Engle made their decisive moves first, declaring that they were leaving. Approximately 60% of the church went with them, to form what is now called Harvest Rock Church. And then folks trickled out of ALCC from there until the church was down to slightly over 100 people, including kids.
So I want you to understand, those of you who have seen a big ugly machine called SGM at work for decades, those of you who see it as always having been a freakish organization obsessed with control, that for some very formative years in my life, such a church was the underdog church.
I am utterly aghast at the ways that SGM has abandoned its charismatic roots in the last seven years in particular, but to be in a church that went from this crazy chaotic and often very wrong direction to hearing that God is sovereign and does not abandon his flock to destruction–especially when you felt like God had abandoned his flock to near-destruction–was a much-needed salve.
It wasn’t like the Holy Spirit went out the window–for a couple of years, indeed, we began studying the Word much more closely and rigorously while praying for the Holy Spirit’s empowering presence. People did not fall lock-step in with the leadership, and I think Mark Mullery probably experienced in that time more people voting with their feet than he necessarily deserved.
And not long after that, a year before Mullery was sent away from ALCC to take over the church in Fairfax, is where Josh Harris comes into the picture of being in PDI…I mean, SGM. :)
So what’s my point in sharing this very long-winded post? SGM has not always been rotten to the core. But I think there comes a point at which a group of churches can’t just get by by saying “We’re NOT going to be x,y,z.” They have to stand for something, too. And I think they’ve long been past the point of needing to make that declaration. The CLC members meeting is a step in that right direction.
Oswald said:
“Just when CLC does what many here have wanted, which is begin to change, there is far too much criticism. Can’t we take a wait-and -see stance and actually wait and see what happens, instead of finding fault with every detail.”
What part of the godly speech address did you see a beginning of change.
And NO, for some people waiting and seeing on other details could just be too late, and more lives could be devastated. Some are young and inexperienced around mind control tactics and need to rely on the important guideposts that I believe God illumines through bloggers here.
So, although I detest the use of manipulation via godtalk, I borrow your phrase:
“God is at work and who can fault that.”.
“GASLIGHTING: A Little Known Form of Abuse
Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse or brainwashing where one individual attempts to get another individual to believe she is “crazy”. This is most often done through the denial of facts, events, or what one did or did not say. The gaslighter might also directly or indirectly imply that the individual is defective, crazy, or suffers from a mental illness.
The term gaslighting was coined in the 1940 and 1944 remake of the movie Gaslight. In this movie the main character is made to believe she is crazy and imagining things by her husband so that he could gain access to her finances. He repeatedly lights a gas lamp in one part of the house, causing the other lamps in the house to become dimmer. When the main character in the movie confronts her husband about this, he repeatedly tells her that she is imagining things and that the lamps are not, in fact, dimmer.
When this technique is used on someone, he or she may initially become frustrated that one is being told his or her memory or perceptions do not match reality. However, after a while, the individual beings to believe the gaslighter. He or she may start to believe that he or she is imagining things, has some kind of mental illness, or has a faulty memory. When one doubts his or her perceptions of reality, the gaslighter is able to control that person; he or she becomes completely dependent on the gaslighter for the “truth”.
Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse that gets one to doubt his or her perceptions of reality. If you think you are the victim of gaslighting please seek professional assistance.”
Controllers are Skilled Emotional Manipulators
Emotional Manipulators get extra marks for subtlety.
Patronizing
Mind-Bender
Crazy Making
An emotional manipulator can bend and twist and warp – with WORDS.
An emotional manipulator is a smooth operator.
What is emotional manipulation?
Well, emotional manipulation is a method of using WORDS, body language and behavior for the purposes of provoking a particular reaction, getting a desired response or to just plain work you over. It’s their game.
There is no use in trying to be honest with an emotional manipulator.
You make a statement and it will be turned around. Whatever you say, the WORDS will be twisted round.
Rule number one – if dealing with an emotional blackmailer, always trust your instinct.
An emotional manipulator is the picture of a willing helper.
The Controller – The Manipulator : pits people against each other.
Keeps allies and targets separated.
Is verbally skilful at twisting words, and actions.
Is charismatic and usually gets his or her way with Emotional Blackmail.
Often undermines our support network.
Discourages us from seeing our family and friends.
The Emotional Manipulator is a Controlling Bully.
Divide and Rule (Divide and Conquer) is the rule.
Emotional Manipulation is “Covert Aggression”
Narcissists do not connect with reality: appearances are all that matter in their world. So, you can lay out your grievances to a narcissist in a letter to let him know what you think, but if tomorrow you encounter him and act as though none of it happened, he is perfectly satisfied.
They become living, breathing Projection Machines. Projection becomes such a knee-jerk reflex that a narcissist accuses his victim of doing to him the very thing (or essentially the same thing) as he is in the very act of doing to the victim. This creates bizarre scenes that make you wonder whether the narcissist is hallucinating or tripping out on psychedelic drugs. You feel like Alice in Wonderland. You have to pinch yourself and wonder whether “it’s me or him that is crazy.”
If you’ve ever thought that, congratulations. It means you’re not. The narcissist never thinks that: he just accuses whoever he abuses of being the crazy one. (I said “crazy,” not “insane.” There’s a difference.)
The narcissist never thinks [he’s crazy]: he just accuses whoever he abuses of being the crazy one.
Another big difference between narcissists and normal people when they’re projecting on you is that narcissists expect you to share their delusion. Yes! You cannot help but perceive this as gaslighting. Narcissists try to make you be what they say you are because, like a psychopath, they view you as an object, not as a human person with perceptions and a mind of your own.* They view you as an extension of themselves (like a tool) to control. It is the moral equivalent of the control a rapist thinks he has over the body of another, whom he views as but an object, an extension of himself, an executioner of HIS will. Psychologists call this bizarre behavior projective identification, a defense mechanism. The narcissist wants you to identify with the image he projects on you. You are a mirror to reflect his fantasy, so he pressures you to behave as though it is real.
Yet narcissists are different: they are hypocrites = for looks only. They think a thing ain’t wrong if they get away with it. In other words, they confuse appearances with reality. Consequently, they have no conscience — just an unconscience. That is, they repress their conscience. Hence, what they do in the dark is shockingly different than what they do in the light of day. These are the people who put make-up on their image a little too thick in spots…..they confuse appearances with reality…..they project instead of repent.
This could be why narcissists get worse with age. The load of repressed guilt they keep trying to purge themselves of (in a way that only dirties them more) gets so heavy that the wild accusations they make get viciouser and viciouser. It’s as though they get drunk on blood.
Sorry for the run-on posts but so much seems to apply. All should have been in quotes since I didn’t write them….found them on abused sanctuary blogs and articles on abuse.
But I think we in the Body need to learn about this sickness since church leadership jobs tend to attract people with these problems due to lack of awareness and accountability.
I still think what I thunk before:
All these issues, the abuse, the weirdness, the cult like sheeple, everything is due to the lack of openness by leadership. Kris has said this repeatedly. Like when SGM changed from charismatic to reformed. All of it was done in the backroom.
I don’t know if this is because CJ couldn’t face ever admitting that he wasn’t always perfectly correct. You know, wrong. (Like Fonzie, only not funny.)
What I find hilariously odd in this inability to admit they could ever be wrong on something. They clearly teach that human perfection was only ever reached by Jesus Christ. So, if they were logical, it would follow that to admit to being wrong about something is to be expected in a non-Godhead human. (Everyone NOT Jesus)
All bad roads in SGM lead to their seemingly pathological inability to be open. I do not for a moment believe that the restriction on reporting crimes has anything to do with a bad interpretation of scripture. I think it has EVERYTHING to do with not wanting to have to admit to having anyone other that really awesome wonderful people in their churches. That pride has crabbed everything.