Blogs Discussing SGM’s Issues May Be Worse Than Porn…And A Question From A Reader Whose Church Is Considering SGM
November 7, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
From a member of Covenant Fellowship Church comes the following comment, posted yesterday:
This morning at CovFel we had a message from Malachi 2:1-9 by Jared [Mellinger]; emphasis on vss 5-8. We were reminded to be gracious and true in our speech, not causing any to stumble by what we have said (or read). It was said that it may be more destructive to go to an un-gracious website where half-truth and opinions are put forth, than to go to a porn site. And, we should avoid hearing from men who would try to lead astray by speaking twisted things from Acts 20:30.
It seemed like a scolding for any who fit the mold. The sermon will be online probably by Wed.
I also received this question, from a reader whose church is considering trying to be adopted by Sovereign Grace Ministries:
I have a question… our church is currently considering becoming a part of SGM. We have a meeting coming up about it. I’m concerned after reading some of your experiences. What was the reference to C.J. Mahaney’s accusations all about? Didn’t know anything about that. If there are any questions that you think might be good to ask, please pass those along also. Thanks so much.
Would anyone like to help this reader? What would you suggest members ask, if their church is thinking about joining SGM?
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
From the previous thread:
Concerned for the kids, I am afraid THAT is most likely the reason! I have heard enough of other tings alluded to, or suggested, and some outright spoken but not printed, to realize what has been going on is a lot bigger than we realize. My prayer is that those victims realize the healing can begin with bringing things to the open, that covering them up does not equal forgetting or forgiving, and how the only way to see this stopped is to take a stand against it!
Square Peg, Yellow is a Happy Color, and also Happymom have stories here also, I believe, as well as Taylor..
They got these out fast:
November 6, 2011 – Spiritual Reformation: Leadership
Jared Mellinger preached from Malachi 2
Main Point
Leadership matters. Leaders can do great good or great harm to the people they lead.
Key Ideas
Three marks of a true and faithful leader:
1. Faithful leaders give instruction from the Word of God. (vss. 6-7)
• Spiritual leaders must instruct others in the truth of God’s word.
• A spiritual leader is one who is always helping people ask ‘What do the Scriptures say about this situation? What do the Scriptures call for in your response?”
• The greatest threat facing leaders today is partiality – that they would lead according to the desires of the people, rather for the good of the people.
2. Faithful leaders maintain obedience to the ways of God. (v6, v8)
• Spiritual leaders must not depart from the ways of God. They must walk in uprightness and obedience, despite their proneness to wander.
• Spiritual leaders must be held accountable. They must maintain practices that protect them from drifting and keep them accountable before God.
• For those aspiring to greater amounts of leadership, the best thing you can be doing now is to maintain obedience to the ways of God!
3. Faithful leaders promote holiness in the people of God. (v6, v8)
• Spiritual leaders must not cause people to stumble. They are appointed by God to help ‘turn many from iniquity’.
• Two areas that we as a church can be turning away from sin are in the area of ungodly speech and in avoiding divisive people.
Fellowship Starters
Treasure – Application to stir our love for Christ?
1. Malachi 2 talks about leadership failure. How does considering the potential weaknesses of human leaders make you more grateful for Jesus the great shepherd of the sheep?
2. How does seeing Christ as the ultimate leader, allow us to trust and follow our human leaders more faithfully?
Grow – Application to stir our obedience to Christ
3. What are some ways that you can be more faithful to support/pray for your pastors?
4. In what ways are you tempted to resist the leadership of your pastors? What are some ways that you can grow in this?
5. What areas in your life might the Lord be calling you to take more leadership in? How can you maintain obedience to Christ in greater ways in order to be ready for that?
Proclaim – Application to stir our witness for Christ
6. How can you talk about the role of pastoral leadership with somebody who has worldly views of leadership?
Questions to ask a pastor who is considering SGM:
How does the SGM govt affect the present church. Does he even know what their govt is, or will be as they seek to make changes?
Is the pastor accountable in any way to the congregation or just his new management team.
How much of the church funds will be given to SGM?
Will the focus of the church be on a crucified savior (check out CJs points from the CovFel message http://covfel.org/uploads/2011_10_30_TakeItHome(1).pdf ) or a risen King?
How much are the SGM A team paid when they come to preach at your church?
QUOTE: “Square Peg, Yellow is a Happy Color, and also Happymom have stories here also, I believe, as well as Taylor..”
Okay, thank you!
After my little bit of involvement with SGM and blogging here for 8 months, this is what I would do if my church was considering going SGM.
I would start emailing and face booking and texting all the SGM survivor type links I could find to all of my church friends and pastors. That would be after I had tried to talk to the leaders first of course and they still were into SGM. If all your friends ostracized you for it, then they were not your friends IMO.
If after reading so many of the testimonies against SGM you are afraid to do anything like that out of ‘fear of god’ then IMO you are already under their influence and you need help. A good place to start for help could be reading the spiritual tyranny website, reading the book Abusing Scripture by Manfred T Brauch and of course hanging out with us. :D
I would ask if they are ready to see the current senior pastor removed and a new young guy installed instead. Young guy who is a CJ clone. And I would ask if they understand what the shepherding doctrines of the 70s are (“FT Lauderdale 5”) and if they agree with those doctrines and know that SGM is recycled 70’s shepherding.
If they are open to these things then they will be very happy in SGM.
• Two areas that we as a church can be turning away from sin are in the area of ungodly speech and in avoiding divisive people.
Noticed this one says ‘as a church.’. It doesn’t say ‘as leaders.’. I say that it’s the SGM leaders themselves who have the ungodly speech and are the divisive people that the church needs to avoid in order to turn away from being involved in their sin.
For the church considering SGM:
– Ask how the association with SGM will benefit your church. What will this adoption allow you to do, that you cannot do if you did not to join SGM.
– Ask what is the procedure within SGM to resolve conflict or problems with the leadership. Either at a local or regional level.
– Ask if the congregation will have any input with the hiring or firing of pastors. (Do you currently have this input?)
– Ask how much of your tithe will go to SGM. (most SGM affiliated churches give 10% of their income)
– Ask if the pastors know about the current (and ongoing) conflict with SGM (CJ) and Covenant Life Church (the mothership, so to speak, of SGM) This should be of great interest to any potential SGM adopted church.
– Ask if the pastors understand the charges Brent Detwiler (one of the founding pastors or SGM) have brought against CJ Mahaney and other members of the SGM board. If they don’t, ask them to read the documents linked on Brent’s website (brentdetwiler.com)
If the pastors are considering the impact on the church as a whole, they will take your questions seriously. If they are only thinking of themselves, and the pastoral benefits of being an SGM pastor, then they will not take your questions seriously.
Diego #3
Are these Fellowship Starter questions actually supplied by the church? If so, this is quite amazing. The sermon points themselves seem generally okay, until the application portion, which is geared toward protecting the leaders from people with serious questions. Malachi 2 is about the failed leaders, not the people’s poor submission to them nor the people’s “divisiveness.” Application is where you find out what’s really on a preacher’s mind. These questions for reflection really indicate leaders who are very focused on controlling their people. It could have been, and should have been, a very different message, concluding with a plea for the people to hold their leaders accountable.
Reposting link to the college football child sex abuse scandal with amazing parallels to the SGM child sex abuse situations. I really do recommend you read the one-page article. The world doesn’t seem to have the same tolerance as SGM for this offense against children.
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7201952/penn-state-nittany-lions-tim-curley-gary-schultz-step-amid-scandal
:beat
QUOTE! “And I would ask if they understand what the shepherding doctrines of the 70s are.”
YES! YES! YES!
Oh please, worse than porn?
IMO “Porn” is just another control issue where the church needs to stop asserting a right to tell people what to look at or read, and are assigning a causation to something not responsible for the woes in the current church, and ignoring the very real causes for the epidemic perversion.
Porn, having undergone extensive research, has not been found to be a “causation” of perversion or sexual crimes. Correlated maybe, but that is very different from causation. Making that leap would be like saying since almost all home invaders wear black clothing, surely wearing black clothing would influence someone to invade a home at night. Uh, NOT. Black clothing and home invasions may be “correlated”, but NOT the causation. What HAS been found to be a causation of sexual crimes and perversion is abnormal sexual repression and legalism, just like churches preach and force onto people.
Nothing inspires perverted rage in human beings more reliably than sexual repression. Without food, water, or freedom of movement, people will get desperate and some may lash out at what they perceive as the source of their problems. But when the expression of sexuality is denied or repressed, the human psyche tends to grow twisted into grotesque, enraged perversions of desire.
Unfortunately, the distorted rage resulting from sexual repression rarely takes the form of rebellion against the people and institutions behind the repression. Instead, the rage is generally directed at weaker helpless victims, who then suffer the results of the perpetrators sick guilt, shame, and ignorant pride.
The suppression of these core sexual emotions and the repeated denial of their resolution in love, always always leads to personal distortion and cumpulsion and loss of perspective in humans.
With religion preaching strongly against porn, it is reasonable to think that porn use would be dramatically less among the more religious. But studies found that their porn use is quite high and is even a key source of sex education for religious teens. The most religious teens said they got their sex education from porn 33% of the time, while the irreligious 25.2% of the time. The studies found that 70% of men claiming to be religous were using pornography by age 21. Most of the porn industry’s profits in this country are made from the most religious states (which make up the “bible belt”), even though their populations are on average smaller than other states.
Church History tells a gory and perverted tale of the religious mis-interpretation of human sexuality. The examples are almost endless….but heres just one: Take higly regarded (at the time) Dr. John H. Kellogg. a very influential religious US doctor around a hundred years ago, who, like various early church leaders were very negative about sexuality and claimed sex was only ever proper for reproduction.(his theories still prevail in the current traditions of refraining from contraception and other ridiculous beliefs still in the church today) Although he was married, it is said him and his wife kept separate beds and is said to have remained celibate all his life, because sex was supposedly so bad and unhealthy.
He wrote that husbands should never show sexual passion and warned that the abnormal wife who might desire sex almost any time of the month can greatly damage her husband, even while he ran a clinic providing mechanical masturbation for women for “medical purposes”.
Kellogg published other bizarre sex teachings, advocating both male and female children be closely watched, blankets yanked off, and their sexual parts enclosed with wire and spikes (boys) and some even doused with acids (girls) to prevent masturbation, which was called self abuse, and was said to cause almost innumerable ailments, as well as insanity. All forms of sexual release were thought unhealthy even including sex in marriage. To prevent evil nocturnal emissions, hard beds, cold baths and tasteless foods were advocated. The bizarre, harsh, and unreasonable sexual beliefs and manners of these kind of doctors and writers, worried and stressed some poor children as well as adults into sickness and insanity, while then they would use these examples of sickness and insanity to confirm their teachings, and advertise the evils of sexuality. To think people believed and followed this nonsense out of a religious obligation!
(reference for numerous quotes of Kellogg, and Macfadden; http://www.biblicalsexuality.com/home33.htm -and for the bible believers- this is from a “biblical” opinion of just how crazy he was)
Considering the madness of the religious world, as even in recent years, how can anyone trust them to be teaching the truth regarding sexuality even today?
I would counter that sytematic abuse and spreading false propaganda to further abusive practice is far far worse than an individual viewing porn. But hey, what do educated researchers, scientists, and psychologists know? I guess if it doesn’t come from a pastor or religious leader, it aint true, right? SMH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherding_Movement
For whatever Wikipedia is worth…
Shepherding Movement (1970’s)
To the “possible adoptee” – be careful what you ask for! I hope you have a lot of time to read!
Here are my top three questions to ask:
1) Mr. Mahaney, could you answer in detail the allegations made about sexual abuse of children in your churches and the handling of the perps by your pastors?
2) Mr. Mahaney, since you have kinda, sorta, owned up to what you did to Larry T. and the blackmail concerning his son (it was on tape, so I guess you couldn’t really deny it); even if NOT ONE OTHER ALLEGATION MADE AGAINST YOU IS EVEN REMOTELY TRUE, how can you possibly consider yourself “above reproach” (I think there is something in the Bible about that being a qualification for a pastor, isn’t it?).
3) Mr. Mahaney, how does SGM select the pastors to “degift”? By the way, is that a biblical thing at all? And how does SGM select those not to degift? Apparently it has nothing to do with running a church into the ground (see Orlando, Ashburn, Richmond, and others).
This is obvious but for the reader whose church is considering trying to be adopted by Sovereign Grace Ministries I would suggest that he and others in their church read Brent Detwiler’s documents that were posted online:
http://www.scribd.com/sgmwikileaks
Unfortunately I am not aware of someone that has gone through and summarized (with references) some of the salient items exposed in this blog. Sadly a lot of hypocrisy was exposed, especially with Mahaney. These documents also show that Mahaney blackmailed the group’s co-founder Larry Tomczak.
What is even worse is that after this egregious sin was exposed, the SGM Board has basically denied or at least trivialized the sin. Had it been anyone besides CJ Mahaney with this amount of sin, SGM would have demanded the person step down from their position and not be allowed to preach for quite a long time.
Despite all this exposed sin Mahaney was back preaching a few months after his sin was exposed. It wouldn’t surprise me if Mahaney was restored back as their leader in the near future.
Are you sure you want to be part of a group that doesn’t appear to have much integrity and has different standards for top leaders. That is when a top leader sins they seem to be whitewashing his sin rather address it and make the leader incur the regular consequences.
My thoughts to a church wanting to join SGM;
Why? Why bother? What would joining them actually add for the BENEFIT of the entire church?
Sure – you get to go to a whole lot of conferences (that our tithes pay for).
But what do we get?
And are your attitudes, speaking, and haircuts going to change to mirror C J’s when we do? And if so – why?
El Pastor #8
Yes, here’s the link http://covfel.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=50793
Under each sermon is a link to Take Home Questions. Click on each for more of the above.
Check out CJ’s Take Home Points He exorts us to “…look up. Look up to the hill of Calvary.” (I believe the hill is empty now, as is the tomb. )
Diego #3, El Pastor #8 — Listen to the message at covfel.org, click on ‘Listen to Sunday’s Message’ on the home page. References to godly speech, etc is at about 34 minutes in.
El Pastor #8 — your last sentence is right on. I concur!
“It could have been, and should have been, a very different message, concluding with a plea for the people to hold their leaders accountable.”
To any church member from any church considering adoption by SGM:
Take great caution against any influence or involvement in Sovereign Grace Ministries. It is a slippery slope!
First, they succor your admiration. Then, they make all sorts of promises to engender your trust. But, if they are welcomed in, they will begin to change many of the things you love most about your church.
In the process of voluntary enslavement, you will experience tell-tale SGM-speak, which greatly helps them establish their new territory and fiefdom.
That in place, they will begin to make major decisions about your church, behind closed doors. Congregational involvement, outside serving the men in leadership, effectively ends. And, women will be given absolutely no opportunity to lead anywhere outside the home.
Very soon, you will find older, wiser, saints replaced by very green, highly submissive, youth. Even then, only those who openly confess their sins to leaders will be approved to lead.
There will also be subtle, but clear, encouragement to read only those materials or books SGM leaders find appropriate. Some of the books you will be asked to buy are written by SGM leaders.
These books will tell you the ‘right way’ to relate to God, the ‘right way’ to date/court, ‘the right way’ to rear your young and ‘the right way’ to relate to friends. If that isn’t enough intimate involvement in your life, they are more than willing to enter your bedroom and tell you ‘the right way’ to relate to your spouse. SGM weaves a tight web. Thinking outside the box will end. Normal conversation will end.
To some this brings a level of comfort; you never again have to think for yourself. Others, find it suffocating. But, if you open the door and let them in, you will slowly, surely, succumb to the vortex of SGM.
To the person whose church is being “courted” by Sovereign Grace Miseries (SGM)……….
You are wise to ask questions……….as many and as diverse in topic as you can. If you receive vague or unsatisfying answers, that will give you some insight into this “family of churches” and how they will respond to questions in the future.
Here are some specific questions you may want to start with………
IF we are to be adopted by SGM……..
1. Who would the pastors accountable to?
2. Who determines the pastor’s salary?
3. Who can fire a pastor?
4. How does SGM view the Holy Spirit?
5. How does SGM view gifts of the Holy Spirit?
6. Whose name would be on the deed for this church building?
7. How does SGM view marital separation in light of an abusive marriage?
8. Is there ever a valid reason for marital separation?
9. What is required of a person to be baptized in an SGM church?
10. How does SGM view dating?
11. What is your leadership’s theological and educational background?
12. Have you been to a seminary? How long was it?
13. Do members of SGM churchs have a right to question the pastor on issues of doctrine, finances, personal behavior? If so, how would that be accomplished? Who would oversee that process?
14. How does SGM view Satan and his current activity in this world?
15. What is the SGM pastor’s position in relationship to church members and God?
16. What other local churches are SGM churchs typically involved with? In what ministries?
17. How does SGM view Christian ministries such as Campus Crusade for Christ, The Gideons, Promise Keepers, Joyce Meyer, etc ? Do SGM churchs support any of these ministries?
18. How can I become a foreign missionary in SGM? How will SGM church support me in this?
19. How can I become a lay leader in an SGM church?
20. How does SGM view married women working outside the home? Do any current SGM pastor’s wives work outside the home?
21. How does SGM view public school?
22. Where do your leader’s children go to school?
23. What is the “Missions Fund”; what missions do those funds support?
24. Who would be the elders in this church under SGM?
25. Would there be any elected elders in this church under SGM?
N.S.L.B.
I dont understand the whole idea/concept of it being to a church’s advantage to ‘join forces’ with SGM. Is it money? If any church’s intent and desire is to further the Gospel, why are there strings attached? Why would a healthy church WANT to be connected to an organization that has so much controversy going on? Isn’t that just asking for trouble? :scratch
Furthermore, how is one expected to have a ministry reaching the ‘lost’ when there is a growing multitude of ‘disgruntled ex-members’..do they think that is a desirable or effective way to further the Gospel? It just plain doesn’t make sense! :bang
Oswald, is that comment still able to be heard on the current recording published?
El Pastor @8-
I find this particular teaching and mindset very disturbing for the reasons you imply in your post. I also find it disturbing that the pastor has gone to the OT to bring a teaching on how believers should relate to church leaders (does he mean those who labor among us?). I believe that many of the ideals of the OT were destroyed when the veil was torn in two and the New Covenant was revealed. It seems to me that the emphasis is quite different in regards to leaders in the NT. It is as if they are teaching the Law and importance of the Levitical Priesthood, i.e, from the people to the priest and then to God. They use the name of Christ in every question. This makes one think that Jesus put great importance in the position of the “pastor” of a church. According to the application questions, they are putting great emphasis on the importance of earthly leaders and NOT on the person of Jesus, our Lord and Savior. Does Jesus ever ask us to follow our human leaders? Question 2 boggles my mind for it seems to imply that Jesus is the ultimate leader, BUT your earthly leaders need your ear/heart first, then you will have access to Jesus? Are we being asked to assume that the earthly leader is less likely to fall into temptation and sin than the regular Joe?
Let me go on the record as saying that I believe earthly overseers need our prayers and are to be honored, “especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.” I just don’t see where those who labor as overseers are deemed “above” others or they come “between” the believer and God. I also don’t see what appears to be “layers of leaders.” Some will give account for our souls – but isn’t that because of what they have taught and preached in the name of Jesus to those they labor among? Believers are to “consider the outcome of a leader’s way of life, and imitate their faith.” So, are we not to speak when we “consider the outcome of their way of life” and find it wanting? Are we to continue following when we find we cannot imitate their faith? (I often find “faith,” as applied to the work of Christ in a believers life, lacking in SGM leaders.)
It seems to me that Jesus did not teach a 20th century “leadership model.” He taught servanthood among believers with Himself as the Head of all.
Exclcer,
I’m not sure if I am totally following you. I too have read the reports that you site and it actually surprised me a bit. I do not think that the reports take enough consideration of the idea that the performers in the porn industry themselves are abused.. To me it’s like entertaining ourselves with YouTube videos of bullying. Or old time gladiator ‘shows’ with Christians. The Christians ‘chose’ to be in the ring. We should be rescuing instead of being entertained. I do though believe as you do that repression (law) is the main cause for perversion. Managing our sexuality is just as important as managing our diet.
Perverse sexuality is relative to one’s beliefs. If anyone hurts another with their sexuality however is not relative to one’s beliefs, it is a call for justice. My beliefs are that even back door is a perversion. I really don’t believe that porn has nothing to do with the untold millions of Christians coerced into this act and have needed medical attention. One of my first questions to an SGMer was if CJ taught that the refusal of oral and/or back door in a marriage was a sin, because I had at the time just read or listened to Mark Driscoll’s twisted porn inspired doctrine on that and he lists CJ as a mentor and wondered about this area. I got an evasive answer like ‘just because he is a mentor doesn’t mean the mentor taught him that’. I know they both believe pretty much the same dude’s interpretation of SOS which is sick and twisted enough.
Bridget #20
I agree with you completely.
Oswald #15
Thanks so much for that link. It was worth hearing it spoken. Actually listening to Sunday’s Covenant Life message brings out the sheer manipulative tone of it all much more than just reading a summary.
Look how Mellinger turns a Christian’s natural desire for holiness and saving his own soul into a means of suppressing criticism of leadership. It flows right over you.
I appreciate the blogs, but I do try to take things with a grain of salt, try to assume the best, etc., but some portions of SGM world really are cult-like. They are so afraid of losing control. These are small men.
Patti – if you have questions for me/us please feel free to email.
Defended1 at gmail .com
Regarding someone questioning their church joining with SGM: Bottom line is what’s in it for the church or the pastor? Why does your church leadership like this idea?
(honestly? it clearly stumps most of us)
Secondly…at the very least read the SGM Blog/spin from Dave Harvey over this summer and see if it makes sense to you.
Then read other concurrent blog reports like Survivors and Refuge.
And if you still have time, read Brent’s 600+ pages of the inner workings of the organization your church is considering joining.
If you still have questions, consider the age-old passage about being unequally yoked!
:spin
So sad to hear Jared state that the blogs are worse than porn. I do know for a fact that his dad considers CJ to be a spiritual father, and I heard his dad state “I will follow CJ as CJ follows Christ” Knowing Jared personally, I pray that God will remove the blinders from his eyes, and that he will hear God personally and think and act for himself.
exCLCer, I honestly think that molestation and invasion of someone’s sexuality is more damaging. I was going to say especially in the case of someone more vulnerable, but the coerced person is always more vulnerable. Sexual coercion and violation does tremendous harm, and the effects are ongoing.
(I feel weird saying this to you, since I know you are deeply aware of the painful effects of molestation.)
“or a website devoted to sowing suspicion against leaders and tearing people down?”
If Jared is referring to this blog then he certainly isn’t “believing the best” as these leaders typically teach. I don’t see this blog devoted to doing either. I would like to know how he can conclude this if he is referring to this blog.
This blog might be devoted to questioning and pointing out items that don’t make sense or “add up” within SGM? Perhaps Jared is afraid of points raised on this blog since most of the times these are valid questions. I am sure Jared would like to keep his members in the dark.
Also, apparently exposing Mahaney’s hypocrisy and sin Jared calls “tearing down people.”
Just baffling.
If someone is going to ask questions at a meeting, about whether your church should join SGM, you can ask only one or two. Mine would be these:
1) Read a shortened version of a child sexual abuse story such as exclcer’s (that’ll get people’s attention). Then ask whether this was handled correctly. If the answer is “yes”, you know all you need to know about joining SGM. If the answer is “no” ask why no apology has been made to the victim or family and why the perpetrator still attends an sgm church with apparently no warning about this given to parents.
2) Ask about the rules in sgm churches for removing pastors. Isn’t it the case, for example, that the founding pastor of an sgm church who has been there for 30 years can be removed by sgm leadership with no input from the congregation and replaced by someone in their mid 20’s with no qualifications at all except a home schooling diploma and 10 months in an unaccredited “pastor’s college” whose diploma is valueless outside sgm?
Also, as Patti said, send everyone you know in the church links to this site, refuge and wartburgwatch.
Those who have seen the Austin Powers movies (I know, for shame, for shame) you will remember MiniMe, Dr. Evil’s miniature replica. Having just listened to the message at CovFel on Sunday, it sounds like Dr. Dave has a MiniMe of his own!
Ian McConnell will tell you why churches should want to be adopted by Sovereign Grace Ministries. :barf:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/church-adoption-process-urban-church-planting.aspx
I would strongly suggest they look at why CLC is separating from SGM, and ask why they are not concerned with some of that. Do they want CJ to tell them they can or can not respond when to something they believe they should respond to? Furthermore, what would they do with a known child molester in their midst, and what if SGM wanted them to do something different than (or not do something) that they felt like they should? In other words, do they really want to get themselves in a position of dependance with an organization that will not allow them to follow their own conscience before God>
For the person whose church is considering joining SGM, the main question I’d ask is WHY?? Joining SGM now seems akin to trying to board the Titanic while it’s sinking.
Seriously, I’d read up on the problems that have been revealed (the sgmwikileaks, this site, SGMRefuge), and ask the current pastor why the church wants to join an organization with all of these problems? If the pastor is hopeful for change, then I’d suggest waiting until there is evidence of proven change before even considering aligning with SGM.
OK, lets see……
They (SGM and the pastors at Covenant Fullofit in particular) kick me and my family out of their church for opining about parenting (and I was correct and the eventually discontinued their erronious teaching but not before it did untold damage but I digress….)
But they not only allow pediphiles to stay but they actively protect sexual perverts.
And now they tell their people that looking at a blog run by Christians and visited by mostly Christian people and coming to the conclusion that it would be better to look at porn than read our posts??
And there is a church anywhere on earth that would have the stupidity to actually wonder if joining this sinking ship a good move?
Seriously?
The leader is either a narcissist (CJ) or
A pathological liar (Dave Harvey Wallbanger) or
well, there are others but these two schmucks aren’t going to give up their power to anyone else particularly Mr. (and he isn’t a doctor of anything) Liar-liar is like one of those cocoo birds that lays an egg in a sparrow’s nest and the big coocooo bully pushes the legatimate children out of the nest whilst the mother and father sparrow take care of him until he has the nest to homself and there you go, Dave Harvey is a coosoo taking over at Covenant Fullofit and carpe diem at SGM.
Yup, the theological giants at Covenant Fullofit would prefer their members go watch porn on the internet instead of using their brain here because (this is a Christian site, if you want to know the answer, visit my blog and ask and if I will finish with the punch line and if a few ask, I’ll just post the answer. But it is vulgar.)
On the last thread, someone was asking about Florida church plants. Here’s a link with the info about the one BP is starting in Lake Nona: http://www.lakenonachurch.com/2011/09/benny-phillips-sovereign-grace-testimony-redemption/
This is so revolting. I wonder how the women listening felt when they heard this. I might be bothered if my husband went online and told me about critical untrue things people were saying about people I love and respect. I might ask him what he was reading that stuff and what about Matthew 18, why are people posting on blogs instead of going to offenders. I can understand the negative reaction to blogs by people who don’t know the facts, and how hard ex members tried to work it out.
But porn???? If my husband was gazing at naked women and pictures of people in the act??? That would bother me LESS than a blog??? Is this Jared for real??
Note how this is a question for the discerning. By implication, any woman who does not agree with him is not discerning. Any woman who would be more wounded and upset about her hub gazing at porn than reading the docs lacks discernment.
These preachers need to be removed. This is beyond belief. One can only hope we see a public apology and retraction in the next few days. One can only hope that other men in the church bring correction and he repents. I’m not gonna hold my breath waiting. If I was a woman there I would leave unless there is an apology.
DB, the ‘official’ reason CLC leaders would quote as ‘asking me to leave’ was due to the fact that they could not allow adultery in their church (I was then pregnant by a ‘consenting adult’, although, despite having been ‘separated ‘ for almost 4 years,I was still officially married to my pedophile husband). So, they could not allow adultery, but it was okay to keep the child molester! There really, really are some screws loose somewhere! (BTW, I am not suggesting a church ‘accept’ :beat adultery, or even fornication, but likewise, dont accept child molesters!!!)
Kris wrote: What would you suggest members ask, if their church is thinking about joining SGM?
The only question that member should be asking is why is the church leadership even considering joining this high-demand group (or cult as I refer to them)? The church members that get it and understand what sgm is really ab out should step forward and let the leadership know that if the church joins sgm they will be leaving. Be prepared to walk away if the church joins sgm, because you don’t want any part of that.
exCLCer – Great post (#12)!!!!
As far as these websites being as bad as porn, seriously? Really? I am not surprised, but the bozos have lost it. We know from the stories about the serious criminal (and sick) behavior towards kids in sgm, we know from the stories about how many men at sgm are big fans of porno and how many appear to have sexual addiction issues as bad as Charlie Sheen or Gene Simmons (i.e. Ceej’s statements about his wife being available the night before a hip replacement, Sr Pastor’s wives teaching about “period blankets”, etc, etc..) so the wives have to service their husbands at least every 48 hours and they choose to relate websites to porn? Pretty standard stuff – somehow relate something to common sgm sin to add control.
Quote from Kris’ post: ” And, we should avoid hearing from men who would try to lead astray by speaking twisted things from Acts 20:30.”
Now that is one of the best examples of the pot calling the kettle black I have ever heard!
“Sr Pastor’s wives teaching about “period blankets”
What? Who? You serious? Sigh, I should know by now it probably is true. Never heard this one before. Just curious what wife it was-top tier or less influential.
Ugh.
To anyone who’s church is looking to join SGM:
Unless you want to be under leaders who believe they are above reproach, who should not be corrected, who are above the congregation and believe they are the congregation’s only link to God, do not let your church join. It is a dangerously slick slope that will end up in the same explosion SGM is experiencing now.
Also, unlike porn, when one reads something on the blogs, in most cases, while a person may use an anonymous name, almost every situation has been given enough details and names that anyone who REALLY wanted to, could go and ask the person accused, and let them defend themselves! But, these guys get offended at the questions, which is a very typical response of guilty people who do not want to take responsibility for their actions. People have asked questions of me here, questions arising from slanderous words they heard from pastors, no less..I simply answered them, that is how things are resolved, and how people learn..only people who have something to hide are threatened by that. :koolaid
@Mrs. Stretch – I too know Jared personally. Our families were close for a few seasons during Celebration children’s ministry. I posted this on Refuge too, but at this point, Jared is only doing what SGM raised him to do. He’s not the problem, he’s a symptom of the problem. Thinking outside of the tightly constructed box he was raised in would be considered ungodly, without faith, etc. In that way, he is unable to think outside of this and can only regurgitate what has been taught within SGM since he was born.
Well, since I have already visited here today I guess I should take a step towards growth in holiness by moving on to a porn site now?
exCLCer’sMom said,
I’ve been thinking the same thing!
Maybe I’m missing something, but honestly, I cannot see how joining SGM benefits any church at this point. Yes, they can partake of the conferences and various pastoral training sessions, and they can become known for their association with the SGM brand.
But the SGM brand isn’t exactly without negative baggage, especially these days…and how are a few conferences and some pastoral resources payment for effectively turning over control of your church to an outside organization that will now have total hiring and firing rights?
Sure, SGM says (all vague) they’re about providing support for local churches. But the reality is that in order to join SGM, members have to vote to rescind their own voting rights forever, if the congregation had any sort of voting input into church governance decisions. If SGM’s description of itself is accurate, and all SGM is is an organization that supports local churches with conferences and materials and the like, then why would a church’s present polity need to change in any way in order to join the organization? What is it about joining SGM that is connected to a church’s polity?
If you think about it, it really makes no sense at all that a vaguely purposed “support” organization would need new member churches to change how they govern themselves in order to join the “support” organization.
To me, that is an obvious indicator of the fact that SGM is about far more than what it claims in its self-description.
As for church leaders considering or wanting their church to join SGM? Couple of ideas: I’d suggest the pastor(s) get an appointment with Josh or a group of CLC pastors and ask for a listing of possible benefits they feel right now (in this immediate time frame) might gained for their own church(es) — such as, what positive things are you guys experiencing right now? And can we expect to feel the same? (I wold explain to the potential new members that it is only logical to ask CLC leaders their viewpoint since CLC is the original, mothership church and therefore would have the clearest viewpoint as to the new church’s advantages/benefits.)
Second, I would not be asked since I am an outsider, but if for any reason a pastor told me that he and the other elders of his church were strongly considering SGM membership, I’d ask him if he had any other job training or a back-up profession, and if not, I’d suggest he start some course of preparation as there would be a good chance he’d need another job in a year or so.
I hope those things would at least give him/them pause — perhaps decide to pray a lot more before the decision was finalized.
Our SGM pastor addressed the whole CJ issue this week for the first time (from what I can tell).
Never once mentioned Brent Detwiler by name and unfaithfully represented Brent as unwilling to meet but characterized CJ as willing to meet.
Hasn’t it been the case that Brent was willing to meet under specific conditions but CJ has not been willing to grant them?
The advantage is not for the church as a whole, but for the current leadership of that church. Much like how a corporation taking over a mom and pop store wont necessarily be in the best interest of the employees, but borrowing the big brand name in return for any previous rights or control they had, is a move that can unusually benefit the owner or top management financially, ….especially in a tight economy when the income may be suffering. All he has to do is fall prey to the the “look” of success the big wigs (SGM)tout so impressively, and then convince his employees (congregation) its all “for the best” before selling them out to the economic coalition being formed. Only leadership who is tempted by the trappings of power and income that SGM claims to be able to bring (they prob call it “support” or something misleading like that), or a church that is desperately struggling financially (which SGM shys away from, don’t they?) then they would never consider joining up.
It’s all getting so disgusting! (SGM that is.)
My wife is telling me I can’t post what I want to say…
She’s right!
Argh! (just argh.)