Tweets From Yesterday’s Meetings At The 2011 SGM Pastors Conference
November 10, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
What follows are some tweets from yesterday’s meetings at the 2011 Sovereign Grace Ministries Pastors Conference. Although cryptic, they can help us gain a better sense of the way SGM and C.J. are viewing themselves these days. Several are quotes (as the Twitter users heard them) of what C.J. Mahaney said in his talks.
First, from “sgmNation” (NOTE: the time stamps reflect when the tweets were pulled off the Twitter feed yesterday afternoon and evening) –
sgmNation sgmNation
“I have become convinced that I am not gifted to lead an organization – my gift of leadership is strategic, theological”- CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
“Given our growth, we have need for tactical, practical leadership” CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
Many saying –“why aren’t u preaching more, why aren’t u leading a church..need to get back in the pulpit & lead from the pulpit.” CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
Gr8ful how doctrine_sin served us bt must b handled w care- we didn’t handled this well and I must bear some of this responsibility CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
“the practice of fellowship is much broader than the doctrine of sin.” CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
The practice of fellowship means preaching the gospel to each other, evidences of grace- too easy to misapply of doctrine_sin -CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
Misapplied correction- “sometimes when there isn’t immediate response – category of pride is introduced” CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
“our best works are shot full of sin” doesn’t mean suspect the hearts of others, assume the sins of others, etc – . CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
On pastoral evaluation – “SGM must provide help in evaluation– uniformly done, theologically informed..” CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
I am aware there are pastors who have been mistreated – don’t believe they are systemic …each situation is very different – CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
“There is a difference between humility and allow critics to define you or capitulate to slander” – CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
“Serving you is just a privilege… If the board desires, I will return eagerly , if not, gladly take my place in your ranks. CJ #PC11
6 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
Temptation to lose heart is common to all pastors – CJ #PC11
3 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
Skill is not sufficient to sustain us in pastoral ministry, it’s about heart – CJ #PC11
3 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
Why Paul did not lose heart- point 1 – the call of Christian ministry. – CJ #PC11
3 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
Paul’s awareness of his call and purpose of his call strengthens him in the midst of hardship – CJ #PC11
3 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
#2 reason – Paul understood the sanctifying work of the gospel – CJ #PC11
3 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
Paul understood that gospel ministry involves trial, affliction and persecution…God is wonderfully at work in affliction – CJ #PC11
3 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
#3 reason not to lose heart – The hope of Christian ministry – CJ #PC11
2 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
Paul does not lose heart because he has an eternal perspective – he’s focused the heavenly future that awaits us. – CJ #PC11
2 hours agosgmNation sgmNation
The night finished w Bob K leading worship – Dave Harvey had prophetic sense of pastors losing heart because of close friends leaving. #PC11
12 minutes agosgmNation sgmNation
Dave H referenced Psalm 55 where psalmist had a sense of betrayal – a few pastors raised hand to be prayed – Bob K had prophetic song #PC11
10 minutes agosgmNation sgmNation
Dave H referenced Psalm 55 where psalmist had a sense of betrayal – a few pastors raised hand to be prayed – Bob K had prophetic song #PC11
10 minutes agosgmNation sgmNation
Dave H referenced Psalm 55 where psalmist had a sense of betrayal – a few pastors raised hand to be prayed – Bob K had prophetic song #PC11
10 minutes agosgmNation sgmNation
Bob K – closed worship w Amazing Grace – enthusiastic singing. When dismissed, a few claps..somewhat muted – maybe everyone’s tired. #PC11
8 minutes ago
Then there were these, from [Username Edited @Author’s Request] –
[Edited at Twitter user’s wife’s demand]
And finally, these, from “[Username Edited @Author’s Request]” –
[Edited at Twitter user’s demand]
(Again, please note: the time stamps reflect when the tweets were pulled off the Twitter feed yesterday afternoon and evening.)
[ALSO NOTE: I was contacted Friday, November 11, and commanded to remove the Twitter comments contained in the final two feeds. Apparently, although these remarks were intentionally published by their authors via Twitter, the authors didn’t realize that their tweets would be published by Twitter and available for viewing by the public?]
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
I think the tweets also confirm to me something else I thought; CJ is not going to walk away from the CLC building, and probably not the ‘church’..I think, if Josh is going to remain strong against CJ and SGM, he and others who agree with him will need to seek a new ‘place of worship’…I know this is not ‘believing the best’, but I think I am being a realist here, when I say I expect them to find some euphemistic way to reconcile, to keep everything altogether. If Josh does remain strong, and actually walks away from that building, he will certainly have my respect, because then I will believe he is standing for what is right despite all costs. I am not sure how it legally works out, but I dont believe for a minute that CJ will give that building up!
We have been reassured by pastors that that is not possible…only time will tell.
ExClcer’sMom said:
“CJ is not going to walk away from the CLC building, and probably not the ‘church’..I think, if Josh is going to remain strong against CJ and SGM, he and others who agree with him will need to seek a new ‘place of worship’”
I don’t think CJ will walk away from SGM. As to what happens with CLC and their building that legally depends (from what I have heard) on what the CLC Board (not SGM’s Board) of Directors decides to do. The board can vote and decide to leave SGM. The board could also vote to remove Harris or other CLC Leaders.
Thus it will depend on how the CLC Board votes. The vote will depend on how “loyal” these board members are to Mahaney despite Mahaney’s hypocrisy. Hopefully the CLC Board will take into account CLC Members opinions.
According to the documents someone posted a while ago, SGM did buy a “condo” type interest in part of the CLC building where under this agreement they put up a certain amount of capital to buy their portion and then agreed to pay the expenses of maintaining and operating that portion.
I don’t know if CLC (if they leave SGM) could force SGM to leave their portion of the building. I imagine SGM would probably want to.
Anyone else join me in finding the phrase “root out divisive pastors” rather creepy?
Who gets to define what “divisive” means?
What does it mean to be “rooted out”?
@Kris #4 –
sinful speculation – it’s a reference to Luke 3:9….
Whole lotta degifting goin’ on…. :Whistling:
SGM can NOT kick CLC out of the building. However, CLC can buy SGM out of their part of the building. When the new building was being constructed SGM paid for or took a loan out for their section of the building. It would cost around $2million to buy SGM out of the building.
oh… forgot the obligatory SGMese –> English translation re: that verse –
“Bear Fruit” = shut up and suck up
I imagine Mahaney’s definition of “devisive” is those that think Mahaney sinned and think Mahaney’s actions have disqualified him a leader. In Mahaney’s view someone must be “divisive” if they think he is unqualified since the SGM Board decided he was qualified.
Someone on the last post commented it was like “McCarthyism.” IMO it sounds like Mahaney is trying to make people fearful of even questioning Mahaney’s actions. Hopefully Mahaney’s actions are displaying his arrogance and setting him up for quite the fall.
http://www.albertmohler.com/2011/11/10/the-tragic-lessons-of-penn-state-a-call-to-action/
Is Al Mohler still backing CJ, does anybody know his most recent stance in all this?
Check out the blog by Al Mohler on the Joe Paterno/Penn State situation.
Mohler is stressing the importance of not tolerating sex abuse…especially in the Christian church, etc.
Does he know about the SGM testimonies about molestation and abuse handling?
Quote taken directly from Al Mohler’s Blog on Penn State situation:
QUOTE–“The moral and legal responsibility of every Christian — and especially every Christian leader and minister — must be to report any suspicion of the abuse of a child to law enforcement authorities. Christians are sometimes reluctant to do this, but this reluctance is both deadly and wrong.
Sometimes Christians are reluctant to report suspected sexual abuse because they do not feel that they know enough about the situation. They are afraid of making a false accusation. This is the wrong instinct. We do not have the ability to conduct the kind of investigation that is needed, nor is this assigned to the church. This is the function of government as instituted by God (Romans 13). Waiting for further information allows a predator to continue and puts children at risk. This is itself an immoral act that needs to be seen for what it is.
A Christian hearing a report of sexual abuse within a church, Christian organization, or Christian school, needs to act in exactly the same manner called for if the abuse is reported in any other context. The church and Christian organizations must not become safe places for abusers. These must be safe places for children, and for all. Any report of sexual abuse must lead immediately to action. That action cannot fall short of contacting law enforcement authorities. A clear lesson of the Penn State scandal is this: Internal reporting is simply not enough.
After law enforcement authorities have been notified, the church must conduct its own work of pastoral ministry, care, and church discipline. This is the church’s responsibility and charge. But these essential Christian ministries and responsibilities are not substitutes for the proper function of law enforcement authorities and the legal system. As Christians, we respect those authorities because we are commanded to do so.” –END QUOTE
Mr. Mohler…in regard to what has happened at SGM, what say you?
Good question, Square Peg! Thanks for the link also! Here are some quoted higfhlights from that article:
Unfortunately, it does not direct to institutions how to ‘correct’ their lack of appropriate responses from the past, nor does it direct them as to what should they do with a pedophile in their midst who has not been caught yet.. These guys (SGM/CLC) cant seem to figure something out how to deal with anything on their own before a huge crises..but they’re the same guys that want to teach us how to follow God??
:scratch
SquarePeg,it looks like we were posting quotes at the same time. I imagine SGM’s response will be the same as Fairfax has done, and Greg S attempted..”We have made some mistakes in our past, that may have been interpreted in a way that could have offended some…”
Also, I should have said up there:
There is no way to know for certain that a pedophile is ‘re-offending’ unless he (or she) is caught again. We must do something PRO-ACTIVELY to protect our youth. When a pedophile is able to walk freely, and accepted around youth, especially in an institution where people are so trusting, children are at risk. If one does not actively and verbally speak out against such abuse, it will remain hidden, and will happen again.
Pardon my ignorance, but I’ve seen the term “degift” being thrown around.
What does this mean? Is it SGM-ese? I am unfamiliar…
And to echo Kris…who gets to decide who is divisive—for the rooting out? Yeah, that’s what I wanna know!
I dunno…in my ‘church visiting’ around town as of late, I visited a church where there was an announcement in the bulletin. It was about how “pastor evaluations” will be coming up.
Apparently, pastors are evaluated annually by the congregation using some sort of rubric and comments. I don’t know what they do with this information, but I like that idea…
The congregation gets to be “heard”…and they don’t have to post on blogs… :scratch
Kris@4 Yes! Very Creepy! And also hello_Ashleigh stated ” CJ encouraged pastors to start rooting out and publically identifying divisive people and slanderous comments from congregants.”
divisive people = regular members too, not just pastors.
slanderous-COMMENTING congregants = any members talking about HIM or SGM woes OR any member COMMENTING here!
It is creepy, but also VERY CHILLING! Sounds like an Inquisition (but w/o the Rack)!!!
How will that affect the culture and conversation of members?
—You better not speak your mind! Or you’ll get seriously reprimanded by the pastors or ceremoniously excommunicated.
How will that affect every pastor?
—Behind closed doors, after all the applause and smiles….I am sure they are all instructing their wives and teens…what to say, or what NOT to say. (Wow, just think of THAT pressure on Pastors’ kids?)
Here’s another question – do the majority of SGMers believe in CJ enough to take his point of view (that his sin was “garden variety,” that he’s merely the target of persecution, that people who have questioned him or have spoken out against him are “divisive”)?
Let’s say we built a culture where if someone commits a sexual crime against a child and gets caught, it is 100% certain they will do jail time and they will be publically branded for life. Not to detract from the need to keep children safe from past/current abusers, but I wonder to what degree such a culture would be a deterrent to abuse happening in the first place.
Not creepy, but “predictable.” A narcissistic “primal rage” is the subtext and it is not surprising. Remember, this bully has thrown quite a few folks under the bus, including co-founders after decades of affiliation. This “root em’ out” message is the same as Mickey Connolly’s recent sermon in Charlotte, NC, and Jared Mellinger’s recent sermon at Cov Fell, Glen Mills, PA. CJ wasn’t winging it, but reflecting previously discussed strategy.
It’s a shot across the bow for fence-sitters from the pew or pulpit.
Not creepy, but “predictable.” Also, “chilling” for any within who raise questions. It’s the same playbook. Instead of invoking “pride, unintreatability, or obstinacy,” it’s a new playcard in the same game with a different name. The new name is now “diviseness.” They’re schoolyard bullies.
Don’t you just love the expression ‘garden variety’…
What is this supposed to mean?
Such minimizing.
Fried Fish,
As far as SGM churches’ situations of abuse go, I think the issue has always been that when pastors have shielded perpetrators from the legal system, that has created situations within those churches where parents of other children have unknowingly allowed their kids to associate with the perpetrators in ways that would not have been allowed if the parents had only known of the previous abuse.
In other words, when perpetrators have not been prosecuted, or where pastors have seemed to minimize what the perpetrators did, that put other kids at risk of victimization.
For instance, “exCLCer’sMom” has stated that she recently became aware of situations where her former husband had been part of a camping trip with other young people whose parents had had no idea of his history…even as this man’s pastors have continued to assure everyone that he is engaging in the appropriate level of disclosure of his past.
Another thing I noticed yesterday in the tweets about CJ’s remarks was this (loose) quote from CJ:
It’s interesting that CJ doesn’t believe the various de-giftings are systemic…and that he’s saying each situation is very different. When it comes to the de-giftings of various pastors, I think most of us could list multiple similarities that would form a distinct pattern.
DPV:
“Not creepy, but “predictable.” Also, “chilling” for any within who raise questions. It’s the same playbook. Instead of invoking “pride, unintreatability, or obstinacy,” it’s a new playcard in the same game with a different name. The new name is now “diviseness.” They’re schoolyard bullies.”
Don’t forget that they use (and some still do) to call talking about stuff like this “gossip” and “slander.” It was another tactic SGM users had to keep regular members in the dark about SGM Leaders questionable practices and sin.
my daughter is longer allowed to go to that man’s home. I was never told about his past life. I believe there’s safety in numbers, but in a large group it is easy to “loose” a girl. That is not a risk I am willing to take
Kris the phrase from the conference “root out divisive pastors” is beyond creepy. :barf:
We all know that it means, “Disagree with SGM, and you will be removed!!! Do something SGM does not like and you will be removed as pastor” From my point, it is just more of the SGM cultic-control techniques. Not saying SGM is a cult, but having been in one (JWs), I can stay SGM definitely uses those “control” techniques.
There have been several references to CJs educational level and how that equates to his quaifications for theological service. Without diminishing the value of formal education, I offer this reminder:
“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.” (1 Corinthians 1:17-29 KJV)
I’m wondering what would happen if CJ were to give this same message at CLC. I can’t believe the majority of the congregation would sit still for it – in fact I suspect he would be shouted down. This message could only be received favorably by those who either don’t know CJ well or are still infatuated with him (as in SGM staffers & outside-the-beltway pastors).
What a contrast to PSU. The Penn State students understandably rushed to JoePa’s defense; that wouldn’t happen at CLC.
There, the Board did the right thing because they knew the eyes of the world were watching. Of course, there they had the power to remove the offender.
Kris #19 –
Right, and I don’t want to minimize the risk or the need for an appropriate response there, was just wondering if a potential perpetrator KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that if he/she gets caught they WILL go to jail and they WILL be publically “outed” and labelled for life, if that truly would be a deterrent. Actions like those of the SGM leaders involved in the cases mentioned here, supposedly for the good of those involved (WTF?) are telling abusers “you can do this and get away with it”. How much more good could they have done for their congregants and for the world at large by sending a message that abuse will not be tolerated?
FF # YES!!
:goodpost
Kris, exactly! I am not even going to say that anyone cannot repent from their sins, and be saved from d**nation. I am not saying that a person who abuses a child and repents should be subject to d**nation..that is not my call to make, nor is it within the scope of any human being to determine if they are repentant, and if they are, will they continue to be strong enough to NOT repeat their actions! So, how does a Church deal with allowing room for the Grace of God in a pedophile who says they have repented?
I believe that part of repentance would be recognizing just how vile and destructive the sin was to begin with. From that point, a repentant person would want the ‘oversight’ to make sure they did not do something so vile and destructive again, therefore, they would welcome the ‘transparency’ they would be required to hold to. Yes, it would be difficult and humbling, but not NEAR as difficult a future as the victim has!
There are absolutes that God has put in place on earth-if we get punched in the nose, it bleeds, if we get sick, it takes time to heal. When we are injured emotionally, it still takes time to heal, but God can give us strength. It is facetious to say “Oh, you said you’re sorry now, so let’s act as thought this never happened”. One cannot afford to do that! It is not about forgiveness, it is just about reality!
I told Gary then, I have no doubt in God’s ability to change a person, I just am not willing to risk my children’s safety on anyone’s willingness to let God change them!
Kris #4
Based on the comment yesterday that CJ made about slander it would lead me to believe CJ intends to clean house not only among the pastor ranks, but also among memebrs. Anyone that is not 100% supportive of SGM will be deemed divisive and shown the door.
I would think that the spin may be that after we did our internal evaluation, we SGM are a wonderful organization. Members and pastors will be given a triple dose of kool-aid and asked to rat out anyone looking at the blogs or has said anything anti-SGM. Those folks will need to repent of their folly, if not you know where the door is.
If CJ never intended to reconcile and planned to run out of town anyone anti-SGM why did they bother to hire AoR?
Isn’t the Christian life great.
Square Peg #10 – :clap
Great quote from Mohler! That is exactly right. How bad does your theology have to be to not realize that these are the exact situations that God has ordained civil government to deal with.
2 Confused, I practice ‘safety in numbers’ with my children now, in that I never let them walk anywhere alone, etc..but, I am sorry to say, that theory only helps so much..At the time he began to molest my little girl, we were in a state of housing transition (staying at someone’s house while ours was finished being built), and my daughter was sharing a full sized bed with 3 other siblings..the ‘numbers’ theory did not help her while everyone slept.
I am horrified these little girls were allowed to go camping with him. he shared some stories with me once, about camping, and that knowledge horrifies me even more that he took them camping. My heart is breaking for the children.
Unreformed, I can understand your reference to Scripture there, but, here’s what i think:
When I became a parent, the responsibility weighed so heavily on me, that I educated myself with everything I could possible read or find, and prayerfully considered all I did. I was driven to know all I could , to do the best job I possibly could. Now, I made a lot of mistakes, but I have also learned from them, and still seek to learn all I can. It may not be all from “ungodly sources”, but I will prayerfully consider everything that applies to my task at hand.
Wouldn’t one think that CJ should have looked at the weight of his responsibility enough to takes some classes, spend a lot of time in prayer (didn’t he once state that was not a strong point for him?)..and, if that was done, wouldn’t that be evident in his sermons, as well as his actions? THAT is why people are able to criticize his education level-it is not that he does not have a degree, per se, but because it is evident that he is not learning! If he spoke with God’s widom, no one would be questioning his education! That is my opinion anyway.
LET THE PURGING BEGIN!!!
2Confused: Do all other mothers of girls within your daughter’s circle of friends know that this man is a child molester? Who made this known…the blogs or the pastors?
Thanks…
“Based on the comment yesterday that CJ made about slander it would lead me to believe CJ intends to clean house not only among the pastor ranks, but also among memebrs. Anyone that is not 100% supportive of SGM will be deemed divisive and shown the door.”
It will be interesting to see how successful Mahaney is with this if this is in fact his plan. Based on the group’s structure, this can only happen at local SGM Churches if the local leadership (those on the local church’s board) allow this to happen. SGM isn’t a privately held company where Mahaney owns all the shares and thus can dictate whatever he thinks.
It wouldn’t surprise me that in some local churches Mahaney will be successful in doing this using his bullying practices and the fear at least some leaders have of him. Other churches I am sure will not allow the bullying.
Mahaney did pack the current SGM Board with his friends so I doubt there will be any pushback from them. Of course if the money stops coming into SGM then that might affect SGM’s actions.
ExCLCr’sMom,
Exactly. My husband is in a profession where most guys have college degrees, but it is not required. My husband does not have a college degree, but he is a smart guy and has educated himself so well in the details of his job and industry, that most folks he meets assume he has a college degree.
The SGM Pastors more beholdin’ to the nice SGM paycheck need CJ to resolve the controversy in their minds so they can put their cognitive dissonance to bed.
Most of these SGM Pastors do not want to lose the deal they have – in my opinion. This need clouds their “ability to perceive”.
CJ is giving these guys a plausibility structure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausibility_structure) to help them feel that CJ is the real victim, there has not been due process for him and most of the hub bub is due to both CJ’s logistical mis-steps (I should not have confessed when I did…stepping down when I did left me unable to defend myself…etc. from tweets quoting CJ at Pastor’s Conference) and the evil slanderous blogs because after all his sin is garden variety stuff that is not disqualifying.
Once they have enough of a structure in mind to justify CJ (by the end of the Pastor’s Conference) it will be biz as usual with CJ back at the helm. Josh will have to figure out what he does at the point.
My comment is mostly academic. I assure everyone here I am neither naive nor overly suspicious of anyone’s motives (without cause). I think I’m reflecting logical observations.
Having said that, I’m sure I’m not the only one reading the conference procedures and notes and quotes from C.J.’s message who is surprised at the lack of restraint he is showing. Even if he is not convinced he has done much that is wrong (“garden-variety sins”), wouldn’t the current “atmosphere” call for at least a modicum of “external humility”? (Even faked?) Instead, it is clearly an aggressive stance toward his critics. (“See? You didn’t get me, but watch out, I’m coming after you.”)
For instance, wouldn’t some trusted counselor to C.J. (a trusted “peer” who is a recognized leader somewhere) say, “Hey, you’ve got to show the troops that you have gained a truly humble perspective during this time away from the helm of the ‘SS SGM.’ You need to regain your position of trust and (only) then begin to deal with pockets of rebellion, those who are threatening mutiny . . .” (Etc.)
Instead, it sounds as though his brain trust (if such exists — i.e., inner circle) have said, “D**n the torpedoes; full speed ahead. Go for it, C.J., stake your claim; regain your territory.” (Or something like that.)
It seems so odd to me (as a tactic) that it suggests a Nero continuing to fiddle while the flames continue to mount around him. Is this a lack of awareness? Or is it brazen contempt for those asking legitimate questions (now seen as “divisive”)? What will be the public consensus, the “group take” on such behavior? Speaking strictly from tactical logic, this seems to be nuts. It also seems to be a kick in the gut to the genuine reconciliation process (if such exists). Someone said, “a shot over the bow.” Indeed!
Just wondering out loud . . .
“Wouldn’t one think that CJ should have looked at the weight of his responsibility enough to takes some classes, spend a lot of time in prayer (didn’t he once state that was not a strong point for him?)..and, if that was done, wouldn’t that be evident in his sermons, as well as his actions? THAT is why people are able to criticize his education level-it is not that he does not have a degree, per se, but because it is evident that he is not learning! If he spoke with God’s widom, no one would be questioning his education! That is my opinion anyway.”
Someone posted that Mahaney hasn’t taken a single credit class even at a community college etc. One would think that someone who thinks they have a “call” would try to get some type of education vs. just reading books that catches one’s attention. One of the values of being in a class is the interaction with the instructor and other students.
I have heard the testimony of one pastor who had a similar drug background that Mahaney had realize with his call to preach that he needed to get a seminary education. This pastor now has a very large church.
As others have pointed out, Mahaney has never really ever been under anyone’s leadership. Mahaney has always been on top or was shared with Tomczak. That is probably one of Mahaney’s problems. Mahaney has always been the one looked up to and revered.
So, CJ is now has the “strategy” to get the sgm denom churches back in line. If you don’t agree, you are out. Control of the sgm population is the name of the game and Ceej is busy thinking though how to make it happen.
While, yeah, it’s “cool” that Josh “Boy wonder” Harris stood up to the church bullies, do not ever, ever forget that he is part of the problem. He is trying to keep his livelihood as Christian Celeb in tact. Once this all plays out, if Josh leaves the denom he will right back at it with his damaging “theology” somewhere else and looked at as a “hero” among his followers for standing up to Ceej.
Anytime money is involved, you have to follow the money trail. There are big bucks (in the Christian world) involved. Granted, it isn’t Exxon/Mobile money, but to these guys (many who didn’t attend college) it’s big bucks. There is money to lose for Ceej, SGM, Josh, the churches and even effects the rest of the “reformed big dogs”. Follow the money trail.
2confused said, “my daughter is longer allowed to go to that man’s home. I was never told about his past life. I believe there’s safety in numbers, but in a large group it is easy to “loose” a girl. That is not a risk I am willing to take”
2confused, I am afraid there is no safety in numbers when it comes to pedophiles. These predators are GIFTED. One predator I knew actually sexually molested his young 4 year old victim while they were in the same room with her older two brothers who were less than 12 feet away. They were distracted by the TV. It is foul and disgusting. That is why a predator should never be allowed NEAR anyone who could even begin to be within their range of victims. (Meaning, if the predator goes after children, no child should ever, ever, ever be near that person again.) This is not my advice, but the advice of experts in this field. Predators can sometimes take years to “groom” their victims, so any contact, no matter how innocent looking should never be allowed.
We have kept my father from contact with children ever since he harmed my neice. It has been a tough ten years, but the closest he can come to any child is if he is in a grocery (he is bedridden now so there’s no worry about that) or at church. So to protect children further, the church knows what my dad did (all the church, not just the hire ups), and he ALWAYS has an escort with him.
I pray that now that you have the information about exCLCer’s ex hubby, you alert every single one of the parents and children (things can fall through the cracks and parents can lose track of their children, so the children themselves must know) in the church and any parent and child who could come in contact with him. It is your responsibility and the responsibility of any who know.
I have forgiven my father and I love him. I help to take care of him. I am not saying that these men should be stoned. I AM saying that the highest priority of the individuals and the community must always be for the victims and for the safety of children who have yet not been touched by this person.
I beg you to consider educating everyone within your realm of influence or contact about the potential harm. No lynch mobs. Simply, “Here’s the info you NEED to have.”
“garden variety sin” – perhaps referring to adam’s sin of pride and rebellion in the garden of eden… :P
Eclcersmom #395 on last post- How did you sleep with a barrel on? It must have been hard. :)
All, I had my meeting with AoR today in SGMville. Very encouraging!
My impression the process is them taking notes based on all the interviews then coming up with a final report to send to SGM based on trends in SGMville.
I have to be honest the best part of the morning was seeing people going into the SGM PC who knew me and politely asked why I was there. Seeing their non-verbal reaction to, ‘Oh I’m meeting with AoR’….priceless.
:D
Unreformed, AMEN! I have no doubt that the greatest pastors that have lived were probably un-lauded, illiterate shepherds without a day of formal education but with a lifetime of knowing their Jesus, knowing His character and having a HEART of love for the sheep.
I am not against seminarians (every man who has married into my family has had a seminary degree- we are lousy with ’em), but I have NO dillusion that a seminary degree could make a narcissist stop being a narcissist. He would only sound like a smarter one and he would just have more skill to impress people. (Or at least those kind of people who are impressed with a degree.)
Stunned,
I believe you shared once about a CovFel children’s ministry leader who may have abused his own children. Did the church ever investigate to see if anything ever happened on a Sunday morning or any other church context? If he was a trusted leader, he might have been allowed to take children off on their own.
KMD said, “I’m wondering what would happen if CJ were to give this same message at CLC. I can’t believe the majority of the congregation would sit still for it – in fact I suspect he would be shouted down.”
Just curious, KMD, are you at CLC? I mean, is this the vibe you get if you are there or is this just what you are figuring from long distance. (Not to discredit your thoughts in the least, just curious if it is based on more “I’m at CLC” kind of info, or not.)
Fried Fish, you asked a great question. “I don’t want to minimize the risk or the need for an appropriate response there, was just wondering if a potential perpetrator KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that if he/she gets caught they WILL go to jail and they WILL be publically “outed” and labelled for life, if that truly would be a deterrent.”
From what I understand, studies that have been done in this particular area actually and unfortunately, prove out the opposite. A big problem is the shame. Yes, it is beyond vile and disgusting. (Heck, this morning as I was listening to the reports about the Penn State case, I was actually pounding my fist onto my steering wheel and screaming just imagining the lives of those poor victims. I felt like I wanted to hurl to get the disgustingness out of me.) But shame usually drives these urges and desires farther into the darkness. Many people who struggle with these vile desires KNOW they are vile. The speculation of many studies go something like this, “If they had somewhere to go to discuss these desires without the overwhelming shame, these men may never cross the line into action. But with horrible public shame comes silence and being driven into darkness which is where the desires grows.” (Think of it as fungus or mushrooms.)
These desires come from somewhere. It’s not like someone wakes up and says, “I want to molest a child today.” In fact, most pedophiles never actually ever touch a child. The “average” pedophile first starts finds themselves sexually drawn to young children while they are between 15 and 18. Of course, they normally hide these feelings so tragically never go for professional help. Like I said, most never act on these desires, but as we know, too many do. Public shame will only make things worse. Public disclosure, however, along with Christians who actually freaking seem to understand that shame never gets anyone anywhere, and certainly never closer to God, will grow and mature and learn how to reach out to these people who wrestle with such a disgusting and shameful desire. We will, I can only hope, be able to protect victims and future victims, in part, by allowing these troubled people to explore why the heck they wrestle with this and get the help they need. Many pedophiles who have integrity, voluntarily get themselves chemically neutered to protect any child they may one day encounter.
All ideas. Who knows for sure. Just wanted to respond with some info.
Stunned
exCLCer’s Mom said, “nor is it within the scope of any human being to determine if they are repentant, and if they are, will they continue to be strong enough to NOT repeat their actions! … a repentant person would want the ‘oversight’ to make sure they did not do something so vile and destructive again, therefore, they would welcome the ‘transparency’ they would be required to hold to. … I told Gary then, I have no doubt in God’s ability to change a person, I just am not willing to risk my children’s safety on anyone’s willingness to let God change them!”
EXACTLY!
Steve 240 said, “It wouldn’t surprise me that in some local churches Mahaney will be successful in doing this using his bullying practices and the fear at least some leaders have of him. Other churches I am sure will not allow the bullying.”
Oh Steve, I so hope you are right!