A “Family Update” From CLC, And Continuing Discussion…
November 23, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Guy and I are traveling this week and haven’t had the greatest internet access. I have been unable to respond to email. I can access and read my email, but I cannot send anything. To those of you who have written me over the past several days, I’m sorry I haven’t gotten back to you.
In other news, Covenant Life Church sent out the following yesterday:
Dear Covenant Life Church,
Grace to you from your brothers on the pastoral team. We’re writing to give a “family update” on recent events, including the Sovereign Grace Pastors Conference earlier this month. We also want to thank you for your ongoing prayers and expressions of encouragement to us.
Constitution
First, our team, led by Kenneth Maresco, is working hard on a draft of our new church constitution. This is a top priority. This past week Kenneth, Corby Megorden and Ben Wikner, accompanied by three church members, visited CrossWay Community Church, in Bristol, Wis., where Mike Bullmore is senior pastor, to learn more about their constitution, attend an elders meeting, and discuss how the involvement of lay pastors (or elders) works there. Mike and his team have been good friends for many years, and we’re grateful for their help and counsel.
A Letter to the Churches
Before the Pastors Conference, the Sovereign Grace Board sent a letter to all the pastors of SGM sharing their disagreement and concerns regarding the content of our church’s October 30 Members Meeting. (If you would like to read the letter, let us know, and we’ll be happy to send you a copy.) The Board had informed us several weeks before that they might send out a letter stating their disagreements with our leadership over the past few months, so this
wasn’t a surprise for us.We don’t feel it’s wise to engage in a “back and forth” of letters at this time, and so we are not currently planning to respond to their letter. We stated our areas of disagreement clearly at our last Members Meeting, and we will keep communicating where we differ, with love and respect. We don’t want to make an issue of the Board sending this letter to SGM pastors—in fact, we are in favor of more open communication between the churches in the future. A number of SGM pastors have told us they were grateful to be able to read and better understand our
position.C.J.’s Comments
One of the most significant moments of the Pastors Conference was when C.J. shared with all the pastors and wives about what he’s learned during his Leave of Absence (LoA). Our pastoral team was disappointed by the tone and posture of C.J.’s remarks, and we feel strongly that it’s appropriate for you to read them, because they reflect apparent changes in his thinking about his LoA and his confession to our congregation at the July 10 Members Meeting. We understand that a number of you have read the remarks online (they have been published on at least two blogs) and found them troubling as well. We’ve asked the SGM Board to make the audio and/or transcript of this session readily available to our church, but we have not heard back as of this writing. We look forward to sharing our thoughts with C.J. and the SGM Board directly and hearing from the Board on whether they support C.J.’s statements.
SGM Polity
Another important session at the Pastors Conference was when Jeff Purswell presented a preliminary draft of the SGM Partnership Agreement, a document designed to define the relationship of SGM to its member churches. There were encouraging signs of a degree of forward progress, but on certain significant points this draft is nearly identical to the Partnership Agreement currently in effect. Since our future relationship with SGM would be spelled out in this agreement, we were particularly interested to see the section that addresses the accountability of the SGM Board. However, that language had not yet been drafted.
We are hoping to have a meeting with Jeff and John Loftness soon (along with other pastors in our region) to share our questions, clarify statements Jeff made at the conference, and better understand the Board’s thoughts about reform. Jeff made it very clear that he was presenting only a draft and that the SGM Board is inviting input. We are grateful for this invitation and look forward to more dialogue with the Board and other SGM pastors.
Panel Review
We’ve been informed that the three panels, each comprised of two SGM pastors and one SGM board member (for a description, see the “Pastoral review” section of this blog post on the SGM website), have been constituted and will immediately begin to evaluate the documents written by Brent Detwiler. We understand that the panels will not only be evaluating C.J.’s fitness for the role of President but also concerns for Sovereign Grace as a whole. The panels are scheduled to complete their process and publish their findings sometime in December. We do not know which men are on these panels, since the SGM board has decided to keep their identities confidential until the panels’ work is complete. Please pray for this work. Please pray, too, for Kenneth, Grant and Josh, as they have been asked to appear and be interviewed.
In Summary
Statements made at the Pastors Conference and the letter from the SGM Board have served to heighten our concerns about the direction of SGM, and consequently, our church’s partnership with SGM going forward. However, we feel that more conversation and dialogue are needed to both honor our long history together and love these men as brothers.
We will keep pressing for clear accountability for the board, clarification of the nature of the partnership between SGM and its member churches, and due process for the charges and criticisms SGM has received. We also believe it’s important to allow time for other SGM pastors to share their concerns with the Board, to wait for reports from the three panels (due in December), and to see how the AoR Group Reconciliation report (due in March) will be processed. We don’t feel rushed to make a decision about our long-term partnership right now. We also want to put to rest any rumors that staying in SGM somehow jeopardizes our staff or facility. The SGM board would not desire to remove our pastors or take our building or anything of the kind, even if they had that authority.
For all of these reasons, we’re continuing a course of deliberate, prayerful evaluation.
Evaluating Giving
We have had an initial conversation with our Financial Advisory Board (made up of four members) to discuss the level of our giving to SGM. We plan to have a further meeting and involve additional members in this decision. We will keep you updated on our progress.
Worth Reviewing
A lot of information has been flying around these past few months. If you find yourself confused by what the real issues are, we would encourage to you to re-read and re-listen to the following things:
This meeting was the first public step in our local church walking a path of repentance. In this meeting we identified some key areas we’ve gotten wrong as pastors. Reviewing this meeting can help remind us that the problems in SGM are also problems in our church that we need to continue to humbly address.
This sermon (from the weekend after Brent Detwiler’s documents were first released) is a call for our church to view this trial as an expression of God’s loving, fatherly discipline. We still believe this is the posture we should take as a church. Instead of dismissing problems or defending ourselves, let’s ask the Lord to refine us and reform us.
This meeting laid out a clear vision for where we are going as a local church—greater partnership between pastors and members in advancing the gospel. We want to be “Jesus-ruled, pastor-led and congregationally accountable.” We also laid out specific points of disagreement with the SGM Board and concerns we have regarding our partnership with Sovereign Grace.
In Conclusion
Thank you for your faith in God and your prayers for Covenant Life. Thanks, too, for your frequent words of encouragement. God is at work in our church. Let’s keep our eyes fixed on him. If you find your soul troubled and anxious, remember Philippians 4:6-8:
… do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
Let’s continue to wait on him and trust in him.
Sincerely,
Your pastors (and brothers)
Finally, please feel free to continue the discussion from the previous thread. As usual, to keep the current conversation all in one spot, comments will be closed everywhere else but here.
Happy Thanksgiving!
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Brent posted letter from Josh to CLC church. Outstanding!!! Go Josh! HE IS HEARING THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!
CJ and Dave … please repent … please repent … please repent!!!
(reposted from the closed Happy Birthday Survivors thread)
Kris and Guy, avert your eyes.
Everyone else, if you would like to thank Kris and Guy in a tangible way for all they have done for all SGM survivors, please go to this website.
http://sgmsurvivors.giftcards.com
This letter is very encouraging.
“Father, thank you for loving and guiding your CLC. Please give the members and their pastors love, wisdom and discernment as you guide them through this important process. Fill them again and again with your Spirit as they keep their eyes on Jesus.”
Late to the party, as usual. I wanted to add my thanks to Kris and Guy for this site. Like many of us, Carole and I found this site after being out of my SGC for a little more than a year and a half. Having had the gall to leave, we found ourselves friendless and questioning our sanity. Survivors played a huge role in our recovery.
We will always be grateful.
Amazing. Open reference to CJ with the words “disappointed” and “troubling.”
I woild guess they need to wait for the AoR report and the SGM response to make any decisions:
“Statements made at the Pastors Conference and the letter from the SGM Board have served to heighten our concerns about the direction of SGM, and consequently, our church’s partnership with SGM going forward.”
God bless you Josh and pastors. May the Lord be with you. May you shepherd the sheep with much grace and wisdom.
Way to go, CLC – I’m so grateful for the example of transparent communication and humble, courageous engagement they are setting right now.
WOW 8O
Its almost surreal reading a letter like that. I am happy that Josh and the CLC pastors have chosen to follow God instead of the Koolaid King. They still have a tough road ahead but it will be worth it in the end :clap
We are members at CLC and as such are very, very pleased with Josh and the other CLC pastors about how they have handled the problems so far. I guess they need to wait until the reports are out before they decide on severing the ties with SGM, but we are going in the right direction and in a very decent manner. CLC pastors are walking the talk with gentleness and much wisdom. The contrast is large compared to what has been coming out of SGM, where the discrepancy between the walk and the talk is huge. Cheap PR, no real action, lack of sincerity, and even retrogressing in terms of repentance, where a deep work of God is overdue.
Wow the language in that letter is refreshingly clear and straightforward. Good to see.
This could be a good thing. A turning of the corner for CLC. I really hope that CJ, Dave and the Board members experience the scales falling off their own eyes at some point. Pride definitely goes before the fall. May they humble themselves…before God humbles them any further.
I was reading sgmnot’s post (#457?, I hope I have the right one) on the “trust me vs. depravity” thread…the one about not even wanting to go to another church. Boy, do I relate to that. When you leave a church, you are leaving friendships and relationships that mostly existed within the church. When you leave, under unfortunate circumstances, it can feel like a type of a “divorce”…you’ve invested so many years, resources, energy, money in something…only to have to walk away from it and start over. “Trust”…is definitely shaken.
I’ve been through it twice. Fortunately, the second time (the SGM time) wasn’t as personally dramatic as the first time in a non-SGM church. I think that was God’s protection for me. He allowed me to sniff out what was going on once the SGM dam started to crack. But, I did have to go through the “denial” stage and all that…(“Surely not MY church, SG, would do THAT!”) Yet, this second time…though not as dramatic for me…does stir up the hurt feelings from that first time, which was much more difficult for me.
I am visiting churches…but not forming relationships. Like I said in another posting…I need to hear from God alone right now. So, I attend the service and I worship God…but I don’t want to get to know people right now. I don’t want to be swayed by things right now.
That is my way of coping and walking through this…that, and following what is going on here. Glad to know we are not along.
CLC…I’m hoping and praying for change we can believe in…(so to speak.) :wink:
Can anyone speak to (or refer me to a past post or comment that speaks to) the weird behavior of information sharing at SGM churches.
You have a personal conversation with a pastor or your small group leader and then over the next several days to few weeks lots of other people seem to know about this ostensibly private conversation.
This experience fits the definition of gossip that I’m familiar with.
Square Peg #10: It was #457 but not me, it was “(not) still in it”.
However, when I read their testimony, it resonated with me on our experience with leaving CLC after 23 years! (Very few relationships “carried” over to the outside world!!! In contrast, everyone probably knows our “dirt”, moving because of financial woes! I do attend another church (non-SGM), but I can definitely understand that some folks would feel like not ever wanting to trust another church again!!!
(Not)still in it, my heart goes out to you. Take time to fellowship with the Holy Spirit in your own home with your family and I believe that God will lead you as He wants to, at the right time. I know it might feel so hurtful now, but there are true friends out there, and some of them are here. :D I pray that you find peace in the process.
“Our pastoral team was disappointed by the tone and posture of C.J.’s remarks, and we feel strongly that it’s appropriate for you to read them, because they reflect apparent changes in his thinking about his LoA and his confession to our congregation at the July 10 Members Meeting. We’ve asked the SGM Board to make the audio and/or transcript of this session readily available to our church, but we have not heard back as of this writing. We look forward to sharing our thoughts with C.J. and the SGM Board directly and hearing from the Board on whether they support C.J.’s statements.”
It is good that someone has the boldness to point out the “emperor having no clothes” or to put another way what was obviously wrong with what Mahaney said. Put even another way it was good to see that at least one group didn’t have the apparent “fear of man” that so many display towards Mahaney. It will be interesting to see if the SGM Board supports Mahaney’s statements.
Will the SGM Board have to choose sides? Was this up to Mahaney to decide and was it Mahaney to determine this “revised” view of his having to step down and his trivializing his actions? Did Mahaney speak this on his own or did the SGM Board support Mahaney making these statements? Maybe the SGM Board is trying to walk the fence here.
It isn’t surprising that the SGM Board has been silent about releasing this talk by Mahaney.
Reconsidering #11 –
If it helps pastors maintain control, it is called sharing information.
If it is antithetic to pastoral control, it is called g :scratch ossip and slander.
If we do it – its ok. If you do it, its gossip and slander. :scratch
Mea culpa! Sorry, sgmnot! right post, wrong poster! :wink:
I guess I was confusing the “nots”…
–Josh and CLC Pastors
Dems fightin’ words!!! :clap
Also, gentlemen, thank you for identifying yourselves as our “brothers” too, and NOT just a separate office of pastors!! :clap :clap
Square Peg: NOT a problem!! :D
I am so proud of Josh Harris and all of the pastors, lay people following the Holy Spirit. Right now I’d love to be a member of CLC. Josh et al, praying for you all!
Josh is definitely thinking on his own. He is growing as a leader in the midst of this trial and looking out after his church, as a true pastor must.
CJ, on the other hand, seems to be choosing a group of men to speak for him, to defend him, and to help save his ship from sinking. His lack of penitence is stunning.
The goals of the two men in question, become more and more clear in each message and each transaction, email by email.
Yes, pray for Josh. Pray that he is listening hard for what the Holy Spirit wants him to do, and not bow to fear or any other man. The stresses of this season must be great so I have also been praying for his health not to suffer.
Recondsidering #11
Yep, that’s how it works. You have a confidential meeting with your care group leader, they then tell the pastor. The care group leader talks to who knows how many and the pastor he talks to who knows how many. Next week at church you get strange looks from folks and fellow members start to quietly avoiding you.
Yep. Been there, done that. See the gossip and slander is only for the dumb sheep that might talk to each other. The pastors and care group leaders are free to talk to whoever they want. Then a whole lot of folks know, but no one will talk to each other about it.
Got to love the double standard, but this is how SGM works.
Stretch 20 SG pastors don’t consider any of that slander or gossip because they are ‘in a position to help.’ I don’t actually agree with that premise but, at least at CLC, there is less and less sharing-up going on.
Some CLC small group leaders do not share all things with their pastors. And, thankfully, there is a whole lot less sharing of intimate details of sin with one another. These are all good signs of SGM-shedding.
I have acknowledged here previously my appreciation for those with such caring and genuinely spiritual (vs. religious) attitudes and maturity as to consistently remind all readers/posters to remain in prayer and to pray even more for a godly resolution to the conflicts shared on this blog site. This spirit has come across from many posting here.
To be honest (Scripture says we are to confess our faults/sins one to another), I have been ministered to by this display of caring and the faith-conviction that only God can change hearts and bring victory out of chaos, and I can say that I have asked God, through your (plural) testimony, to effect deeper spiritual love in my heart and a stronger commitment to prayer and faith for these complex situations, stronger than I currently possess.
Having said that, I have some experience in serving as an elder years back where church leaders had to confront and attempt to minister to a former leader/founder of the congregation who was in open moral failure (yet still a member) and who shunned all attempts to help him move toward confession, repentance and restoration of his walk and testimony. We were unsuccessful in assisting this man spiritually — a dear brother loved by all — and he left his family and the church and the area to pursue an adulterous romantic interest.
I do not judge that man, and I am making NO direct comparisons in any way. I simply want to point out that this is not “Josh vs. CJ” (that would be tough enough on both men) — and that some of the CLC pastors go way back to the early days and “grew up” with CJ, watched his ministry develop and flourish, always played “second fiddle” (so to speak) in their own subordinate ministries, even stood by him and with the church when Larry was disciplined (whether rightly or not is not my point) — and for them to now be in an evaluation posture toward and bearing this level of concern for such a dearly loved brother and leader (and to some, spiritual dad) must be exceedingly painful, even beyond my own imagination.
So now — with a softer heart — I acknowledge the call to strong intercession, and I join the brothers and sisters here who have always taken the high road and continue to believe that God, indeed, is working all things together in His sovereign will, purpose, and overall providence — for His glory and for the ultimate “good” of all concerned, though now, such a “good” outcome is no doubt impossible to fully foresee or comprehend. I thank you for your faithfulness to keep faith strong among us (maybe everyone has it, and I’m just catching up?), and not see this as a “fight” among people, but a battle in the heavenlies over spiritual issues.
There is a strong possibility that the CLC pastors will suffer much in what comes down — not simply in their own hearts and lives because they truly care — but in the “court of public opinion” if they must make difficult and “unpopular” decisions with regard to SGM.
I’m not prophesying, but I am feeling something of their pain.
“This sermon (from the weekend after Brent Detwiler’s documents were first released) is a call for our church to view this trial as an expression of God’s loving, fatherly discipline. We still believe this is the posture we should take as a church. Instead of dismissing problems or defending ourselves, let’s ask the Lord to refine us and reform us.”
It also good that CLC is still regarding what has happened including Brent’s publication of the documents as God’s discipline which sadly the SGM Board doesn’t agree with. CLC in this statement also seems to be indicating (but not directly saying) they believe the SGM Board is both “dismissing” and “defending.” Still what a contrast.
To Steve240, I appreciate that the CLC pastors say they want to hear directly from the SGM Board as to whether or not they support C.J. Mahaney’s statements.
The Board may finally get around to issuing some equivocating, overly-prefaced, back-ended response that eventually gets around to saying that, yes, with all the disclaimers and dodges in place, yes, they do.
More than likely, they will wait until they get more justification first — the pastoral adjudication panels, for instance.
I suggest we look at what they DO, not what they SAY. [My editorial in brackets.]
They do nothing for months while evidentiary documents pass behind the scenes.
[Only when public disclosure of the Detwiler documents is imminent] They roll into action with a plan. [for damage control]
They expand the Board. [to mitigate blame and give semblance of wider input]
They report C.J.’s leave of absence ‘confession’ letter [in which he tidily preempts the issue of the blackmail/coercion/extortion of Larry Tomczak]
They publish Larry Tomzcak’s letter regarding C.J.’s [long-overdue] apology to him.
They publish C.J.’s [carefully-crafted and deficient] ‘apology’ to CLC.
They publish that C.J. is ‘qualified until proven disqualified.’
They open the blog to say they are listening. [However, they delegate it to a young assistant to read, report, and respond there for them.]
They defend C.J. in his decision to leave CLC and attend elsewhere.
They support C.J. in preaching while on leave of absence.
[Meanwhile, back on the homefront, things are not settling down as they expected. The blogs are blowing up with new visitors and new stories. To complicate matters, Josh Harris and CLC – C.J.’s own ‘pastors’ and the ones who know him best – break rank and refuse to play along with the damage control spin. This was not in the plan. The Board has underestimated the degree of unrest and overestimated their ability to charm it away. They now have a choice: really seek to listen and be open to drastic repentance and change OR go through the motions of pretending to listen and maybe tweaking a few things while reasserting their control. C.J. relatives and loyalists stomp off from their posts. Lines are drawn.]
[Once Brent clearly outlines that he had followed the steps of Matthew 18]; many SGM pastors and leaders across the country suddenly and simultaneously start referring to the charges against C.J. as a I Timothy 5 situation, not a Matthew 18 case.
[Once Brent, near desperation, starts using his blog to publish more email exchanges, including emails from other former leaders disenfranchised by SGM]/i> SGM pastors and leaders across the country suddenly and simultaneously start referring to Brent as ‘divisive’ and ‘factious’ (e.g. Curtis Allen), thus, to be ignored [in a complete misapplication of Titus 3:10.]
The Board gives Brent Detwiler [an ultimatum of] terms with a [short-fuse, arbitrary] deadline for bringing charges.
They refuse any alternative approach or expanded list of parties while the deadline ticks over.
They refuse Brent Detwiler’s request to acquiesce to their terms once their deadline has passed [while claiming Brent has absolutely refused to meet and was unreasonable and impossible to satisfy.]
[After Larry T. is quoted in print about serious problems SGM] They disinvite Larry Tomczak from his promised ‘make-up’ appearance at the Pastors Conference.
They give C.J. plenty of speaking time, more than anyone else. [They EITHER vett his remarks ahead of time and give approval OR they give him the floor unreservedly, which still speaks of their prior approval.]
A few days before the Pastors Conference which will be meeting at CLC, the SGM Board sends out a letter to ALL SGM pastors which [politely but savagely in SGMese] disparages CLC’s pastors and their stance while affirming SGM [and, as it happens, affirming and setting the tone for the remarks C.J. Mahaney will make at the conference.]
They hear C.J. take back his ‘apology’ to CLC, regretting he ever said it.
They quietly pull C.J.’s ‘apology’ from the SGM website.
They hear C.J. say ‘we’ pastors must be brave to publicly mark the ‘divisive’.
At least one pastor and Board member, Mickey Connolly, does so immediately, having a church-wide meeting to speak against and ‘mark’ Brent Detwiler for shunning.
No one from the Board has publicly corrected that.
If the SGM Board does not approve of C.J.’s ‘tone and posture’, they sure have a funny way of showing it!
FO @#22 — Thanks for your post. It is filled with reminders. To wit; that God is sovereign and in total control, that this is not about CJ vs Josh, and the reminder we need daily is to pray without ceasing.
Your story reminds us also, that even when we pray and have a right attitude and trust that God is sovereign, things don’t always turn out as we would hope. But our joy and hope is in our God regardless of the outcome.
FO #22, I think folks in SG are both praying and choosing sides, unfortunately. That is evident mostly on FB posts and of course, those whom have transferred their membership from CLC to Solid Rock.
I wish everyone could see fit to retain friendship but, that’s not historically how SG rolls. I have seen a decided shift in friendship loss during this time. In general, the ones choosing to follow CJ are hanging tightly together, even as they retain their membership and/or jobs at CLC. The others who remain at CLC are rolling up their sleeves and trying to be part of the solution.
I really do wish that sgm could just open their eyes and see their people are hurting or got hurt.
Patti,
How does daughters ex boyfriend not understand that sgm has problems? I would understand before the documents were released, but not after. I mean, my heart just breaks.
Good stuff from CLC. They seem like they are leading on regardless of what SGM corporate thinks or says. I like how they are not engaging in back and forth too. CLC is leading, the ball is in SGM’s court to prove what kind of organization they are. Any move by SGM to interfere with CLC will further prove that they do in fact have authority over local churches. In my church, we were told that SGM does not have “real authority” over the local pastors, but that they only receive advice and insight.
Josh and team are actually doing what SGM has been contemplating and not able to figure out. I would not be surprised if Josh is relying heavily on some of the other staff members as well, that is what good leaders do. Maybe some of the old-timers have been admitting mistakes and building on what they have learned. I am just speculating.
The SGM Board reminds me of an old episode of Happy Days – many of you have probably seen it, where the Fonz has to admit he “was wrong” and that he is “sorry”. He just cannot do it.
These are amazing developments. However, I wonder if one of the things CLC will do away with is the stiff, measured and pious-sounding language with which they speak and write. When I was there, I’m sure I was not considered very spiritually mature because I refused to “speak the language.” I hope they they will be set free from all unnecessary forms of conformity when this split happens. Even though they will be changing the “constitution” there is no guarantee that the unwritten social pressures that have evolved will change. Still, this is sounding like good news.
Josh is 100% more sensitive to the desires of the flock than CJ ever was. In fact, I can’t think of one time when CJ did anything to please the congregation. He pretty much forces his will on everyone around him, especially on his followers. I don’t think this is an exaggeration but, maybe someone can point out something I am forgetting.
Anyway, I am sure Josh is listening intently to the voices of the congregation and he is directing the other pastors on staff to listen, too. He’s moving slowly but in the end, I think this bodes well for the congregation and this will likely ensure the future of CLC as a church.
Thanks Persona and Oswald for identifying. This is so not about me, but I felt I should testify of how I am learning. I don’t do FB as a means of communicating, and I wouldn’t know the folks involved even if I was on actively. (I do sneak in sometimes and keep up with some of my family that way by reading what is publicly shared.)
I am sorry about the broken or strained relationships in CLC. It may be inevitable, at least in the short run (hopefully reconciliations later?). I do recall a curious phenomenon about the true illustration I shared about the heart-wrenching open sin situation with the brother I cited (he never disputed that the elders’ concerns were spurious) — and even though he spurned an offer of help, even to secure and pay for professional counseling for his obvious “weakness,” if not addiction, and the church membership knew he was walking away from his family — even with all that, some folks (not many — it was not a large church) resented the elders’ action in making public what some thought was a “private” matter, and in sympathy for the perpetrator of the split up family, left the church “on principle” (as one man told us).
Again, I am not drawing a parallel in terms of cause, but there is tension and division in CLC, both potential and actual, and I guess part of the prayer burden is for a righteous solution.
Oh I didn’t mean he doesn’t acknowledge ANY imperfection. It has to be very difficult though for the families that never experienced any abuse or are unaware of what abuse is.
I am not free to speak specifically.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Patti }}}}}}}}}}}
Nickname (from previous thread) said, “Mere men cannot change God’s grace” I think that is very powerful. The pastoral authority for me at CLC was so all consuming. Pleasing men became a dialy routine. It was all about sancification and nothing about the freedom of Christ. I am wondering if any else that has been shunned or excommunicated had a hard time (in that moment/days/during it all) separating God from the church…like you had lost God and His grace too? Just curious. I think that left a deep sadness in me. Even though I clearly agree with Nickname and know that is truth — that authority/God thing was just scarring. And even though I could care less about those people now and honestly think they were a bit crazy in their actions. It still just left a sadness.
Sorry for messing up the italics with the html in my post above. :(
Are people really having trouble choosing between Josh Harris/CLC and this:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/A-note-about-online-confessions.aspx
I’m still having a VERY hard time reading all the Josh-exaltation. PLEASE..STOP exalting Josh. This isn’t about Josh. This is about CLC. CLC has pastors and CLC has members. PLEASE get Josh off that pedestal.
Any reference to Josh as the fearless leader of CLC is folly. With the horrible oppressive history of “leader-worship” that CLC/SGM has, I’m afraid that if people don’t stop elevating ONE man, this oppressive history will continue and repeat itself.
This is an excellent letter. I’m so glad the CLC pastors and members seem to be standing strong in their convictions.
QE2 and others-
Your plan is a beautiful gesture of kindness, especially during the season of Thanksgiving. However, we do not do this in hopes of any financial gain. We (Kris and I) would feel honored if you would instead make a donation to a Christian organization, possibly involved with helping those that are struggling during these tough economic times.
Please don’t be offended. We are honored that you would think of us in this way. One day we can all get together and have a big ol’ party ;)
Let’s not get all Josh crazy now, LOL!! All of the CLC pastors are seeing these things…the Holy Spirit has opened their eyes…praise the Lord!!! Continue to pray!! The Lord is at work.
Oh, my #38….I don’t believe that the pedestal that Josh sits on is by his own doing.
I believe it’s because that oppressive thread running through CLC/SGM is so deeply rooted that the PEOPLE put their leader on that pedestal.
I don’t think Josh wants to be on that pedestal. I think he’s a good guy. :)
Just didn’t want anyone to think I’m dissing the guy. I feel bad for him actually.
Sid
SA @#37 — Thanks for the link to Dave Harvey’s message at the Plant and Build blog. Need to vent, sorry.
Did he say anything??? It looks like more A__-Covering to me. Why do they feel they must explain everything? I think it’s because they know how un(freakin’)believable they are. They think taking CJ’s confession off-line was biblical and in keeping with AoR directives. there are a lot of other AoR directives they could start with. And it’s all supposedly Dave’s conviction that led to the action.
Sydney, no one is putting Josh on a pedestal at CLC. Believe me we’ve learned our lesson the hard way. There is much unity and support at CLC right now. Pastors are seeking the input of all the members as well as other leaders in the body of Christ. It is new territory for all of us.
Oswald…you’re right.
No one really needs to say anything anymore. Just let these guys speak for themselves and dig their own graves!!
Argus said:
“I suggest we look at what they DO, not what they SAY.” :goodpost
Excellent point. The SGM’s Board track record as you do an excellent job of summarizing isn’t very good and thus is hard to believe they will change. Just that they gave so much time for Mahaney to speak at the Pastors’ Conference says a lot. On the other hand what do you expect when Harvey indicates something to the effect that they don’t know how to lead the group without Mahaney.
MAK,
All I have to do is read this thread…the comments are “Josh and the CLC pastors” or “Josh” or “Josh Harris/CLC” and a few “CLC pastors” thrown in.
I guess you’ve been at CLC for a long time, because in the outside world, when things happen at churches, it’s about “the elder board” or “the pastors” or “the church,” not “Josh and the pastors.”
In fact, my church just spent the last year working through a decision that would change some things in the church (the role of women in leadership). The only role the senior pastor played was attending meetings with the elders (he’s the only staff member on the elder board) and making the announcement after the decision was made. I think this is a little more “normal” in the outside world. And this is why it’s so offensive to me to see Josh in the position he’s in. Because it doesn’t seem healthy. It seems like more of the same.
But that’s just me….
@Oswald:
Thanks. The SGM posts about C.J. Maheney seem to be getting more and more bizarre and all I can say is this:
Yet publicly shunning/excommunicating/marking/slandering Brent Detwiler, despite AOR’s strong recommendation that SGM make a great effort to forgive him and reconcile with him does not seem wrong to Mr. Harvey.
I agree with the essence of what Brent Detwiler said about Dave Harvey’s recent post: Do what you like but don’t pretend you have any Biblical basis for doing it. http://www.brentdetwiler.com/
@Sidney:
Your point about putting Josh on a pedestal is well taken. However, he is the leader and senior pastor of CLC and has therefore taken much personal criticism for the actions of all its pastors despite the fact that they’re a team. In addition, I don’t think that following C.J. Mahaney was an option, but Josh could have walked away from CLC/SGM all together. Instead he stuck it out and cared for his parishioners. Plus the SGM board will likely go after Josh personally because he’s the mover and shaker at CLC, their flagship church and biggest donor, and Josh knew that when he took his stance.
Taken together I believe these three things merit giving Joshua, personally, credit for standing up to the SGM board. To me that’s not exaltation – it’s just giving credit where credit is merited yet I also see the danger in idolizing him or anyone else.
I also pray for Josh because in making a decision to hold the SGM board accountable for its actions he’s likely lost both his mother (to cancer) and his adopted family in less than two years. That’s tough.
Guy / Kris:
It’s not about financial gain. It’s about saying, “Thank you!”
And we were doing the other thing you suggested before all this anyway.
Dear Josh Harris.
Thank you for doing your job. Good to see that you are not above change
or some level of transparency. Not something we are that used to at SGM.
Its not unlike getting McDonald’s after a month of tofu, so some of us
may get a bit excited. It’s nice to get meat in any form after what can
seem to be a lifetime of ‘magic’ beans that do not truly satisfy.
Remember not to confuse the process with the goal, or that the ends
do not justify the means when it comes to God, and you should be OK.
While it may seem ungrateful, I am still looking forward to some feasts
that include steak. I think a few others may be as well.
I would say more, but than you would loose reward in heaven. :wink:
Best,
UN
PS – Boy am I ready for Thanksgiving now.
PSS – Why is everything in italics on this blog right now?