Larry Tomczak’s Story
December 2, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
From Larry Tomczak’s website comes the following:
THE TOMCZAK DEPARTURE FROM S.G.M. — WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?
— Larry and Doris Tomczak (November 2011)
As you read of our time with Sovereign Grace Ministries, we are sharing some traumatic experiences, yet endeavoring to do so accurately and redemptively. I want to say at the outset that I am not blameless, but I at times yielded to a spirit of fear when told I “lacked discernment” and was at times cowardly when I should have addressed unrighteous behavior. Where we participated in any unredemptive treatment of God’s people, we ask for your forgiveness. Over the years Doris and I have met with numerous people to ask forgiveness and people have been most gracious to us. Feel free to contact us if you feel a need to revisit any past experiences. Thank you in advance for your mercy and love. Let us unite in prayer that what we communicate will help many, bring healing and glorify our Lord Jesus Christ.
“But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in God’s place? And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. So therefore do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones. So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.” Gen. 50:19-21
“Encountering departures and desertions from our ministries—we must see them as tutors—revealing our real motives and deficiencies in our methodology. These are tests from God. They will reveal our hearts.” -Dave Harvey, SGM Leader
Note: This quote appeared on the cover page of a paper I submitted to SGM leaders one year after our 1997 departure, “An Appeal for Repentance, Reconciliation and Closure.”
Five issues were highlighted at that time: 1) Pride, Sectarianism and Elitism 2) Self-righteousness and Judgmentalism 3) Blackmail and Intimidation 4) Lack of Integrity and Deceitfulness 5) Abuse of Spiritual Authority.
The paper cited the names of 61 former leaders who experienced mistreatment (the list is currently over 100) and included an appeal for a forum where “individuals with outstanding offenses and unresolved issues could be addressed…these issues will not simply fade away but will continue lingering for years until dealt with redemptively and honestly.” I received no response from any team leaders to the paper or appeal for adjudication. Date of submission: December 1998.
“The sins of some men are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them.” (I Tim.5:24)
Next year I will celebrate God’s faithfulness in my 40th year of full-time Christian ministry. At this juncture I sensed it would be helpful to tell the story of a painful turning point in my life and ministry.
Recently, I wrote a “Statement of Reconciliation” with CJ Mahaney, attempting to be as gracious and discrete as possible regarding specifics. But as more details surfaced on the Internet it became apparent that God wanted everything in the light. Our experience is not an isolated case. It is probably one of the most egregious and ignominious examples of deceit and abusive behavior surfacing in SGM at this time. But it did not create the crisis. Instead, it revealed how root issues have been ignored and left unaddressed for too long. May we all proceed in humility and mercy, mindful of Prov. 28:13, “He who conceals his sin will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes his sin will obtain mercy.”
After 24 years of service in the DC area with the “Take and Give Ministry” (TAG), cofounding Covenant Life Church in our home and then serving in leadership in Fairfax Covenant Church, I with my family departed disappointedly, yet hopefully, for better things in Atlanta in 1996. We knew for a number of years that I was being marginalized in Sovereign Grace Ministries (formerly People of Destiny International) and when differences with Reformed doctrine began surfacing, the tension only increased.
At a youth rally in Atlanta, one of our teen-age sons responded along with other youth to an appeal for living genuine Christian lives. That night at home he voluntarily shared with me areas of waywardness and his desire to change, but the door was now open to confront me for “failures at home” and “character deficiencies.” “Apostolic Team” leaders forbade me to be present for a later meeting with my son where he was told to “share all your sins” with the vow of their “confidentiality” (which was later broken).
Subsequently, the team said it “lost confidence in my leadership,” and agreed to a “leave of absence,” sending out a “letter of confession” written by me, then undergoing several revisions affirming SGM leadership and inserting material with which I was uncomfortable but required to include. At the church meeting announcing the shift, I was told to nod in agreement for the congregation to observe.
The agreed upon 6-12 month period was short-circuited when we experienced a pattern of spiritual abuse, deceit, harshness and hypocrisy (including premeditated blackmail, communicated and reaffirmed on numerous occasions and subsequently left to silence and hang over us for over a decade). The entire apostolic team and the new senior pastor and his staff participated in this. We also were told to consider uprooting to Virginia Beach or Phoenix, which we said we could not do because we did not sense this to be God’s will for our family. Criteria established for returning to my former role as senior pastor made that outcome an impossibility unless I embraced the Reformed doctrinal tenets (although people nationwide were deliberately misled with information to the contrary).
My wife and I finally left PDI when things finally reached the “untenable” point. It became for us a matter of conscience. Disingenuous public statements and letters sent nationwide misrepresented what actually happened and I was publically slandered at Covenant Life Church, called a “liar” (with guests and non-believers present) as the leader declared, “I’d rather be dead than do what Larry Tomczak is doing!” Local leaders were affirmed leading to an almost unanimous standing ovation. My reputation built upon 25 years in ministry, was debased nationally and abroad. My “Seven Reasons for Departing PDI” were not conveyed and for 13 years this perception remained in the public domain, separating our family from many relatives, friends and leaders in the Body of Christ. It also resulted in serious financial repercussions for us as a family of six.
For over a decade we tried to bring CJ and the apostolic team to account for the injustice, even enlisting nationally known leaders in the effort, but to no avail. Finally, in November of 2010 he consented. Years of confrontation by SGM leaders and CLC pastors along with the turmoil and defections of people in the network of churches brought CJ to the realization he needed to repent of longstanding sins, some of which were committed in our unfortunate departure. CJ later made a public confession of some of his transgressions at Covenant Life Church and announced a “leave of absence.” Many believe his confession was a start but was incomplete and minimized the severity of the issues. We were invited to the November SGM Pastors Conference and Covenant Life Church to speak on reconciliation, but the invitation was rescinded. At the conference CJ shared he regretted having taken the leave of absence.
CJ’s example, problems surfacing in churches affiliated with SGM, and Internet disclosures from a former apostolic team member were catalytic in some SGM leaders beginning to come forward to repent and rectify matters with our family. One former team member had already done so years previously, after experiencing abusive treatment leading to his departure. An independent advisory panel, Ambassadors of Reconciliation, has been retained to engage in a discovery process to help facilitate reconciliation with former members and leaders who believe they have been spiritually abused. The panel is also collecting information to assist with reforms needed in SGM as well as assist in determining CJ Mahaney’s future status.
May the Lord guide us all as we redemptively deal with past transgressions and find His grace manifested in this time of reconciliation, reform and discipline for Sovereign Grace Ministries. The changes are not cosmetic but substantive to effectively eradicate systemic issues and transform a leadership culture that has drifted from Biblical norms. Two of the churches in Revelation faced the practice of the Nicolaitans (“suppress the people”). One hated it; the other held to it (Rev.2:6 & 15). May SGM leaders align with the former.
To be faithful to criteria for Biblical leadership; to steer clear of the sin of favoritism and partiality; and to be consistent with what was expected of former SGM leaders, I believe senior leaders should step down for a season to be retooled for ministry according to I Pet. 5 and I Tim. 3 standards. Public repentance and public statements should be made along with restitution where appropriate. Then and only then, can the favor of Almighty God return in its fullness to this ministry and unity be restored. The warning of God’s “lampstand” (His Presence) being removed (Rev. 2:5) is very real when a church or ministry is being evaluated by Jesus and fails to respond. Many onlookers are hoping and praying that will not happen.
Then we all can pray like Nehemiah did after he instituted reforms to restore the walls of the city of God: “Remember me with favor, O my God.” (Neh. 13:31)
ps: Because the issues and contents of this statement have already been made public at church meetings and on the Internet for months, I sensed it was appropriate to release my story at this time. CJ and I are almost 40-year friends and our reconciliation statement still stands. In my study I keep a plaque he gave me decades ago. On it are the words: “My Brother, I would not be the man I am without your care and example. I am eternally indebted to you. Your Yokefellow, CJ.” I would add: “Faithful are the wounds of a friend.” (Prov. 27:6)
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
OMG.. you guys are like the TMZ/Perez Hilton to the SGM world… This is so deep. And yet still Larry’s graciousness is oozing out of this letter. I dont think I could do the same if I was in his shoes :new
and it keeps getting deeper and deeper…and more public and public….how much longer :scratch
What keeps striking me as odd is the fact that we really aren’t hearing anything new. Yes, the players are different and the specific situations are different…but it’s the same ole same ole that hundreds of people here on “the blogs” have been talking about for 4 years.
I sure hope AoR will print the entirety of Survivors and Refuge (and ask Guy for all the stuff he had to archive because the files here became too BIG) and use this as their main body of evidence.
If not…well…I guess we’ll have to depend on “the leaders’ experiences” to get to the truth.
Sad…
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I was a new christian and new to SG in that time period. (CF) So many singles afraid to be alone together. Alot of good group social events, but as that group grew older, many stayed single. A good brother was Matthew 18 out of the church for dating and going too far. Wouldn’t marry the girl he was dating. So many singles from SG policy that Andy Farmer wrote the book…The Rich Single Life…look at the cover of that book, and you can see the young people of that generation who’s life was affected by SG policy. Because of the SG policy on “dating/groups” there is no 2nd SG generation for many of those…
to a current sgm member,
loyalty is an admirable trait. but at some point, you have to question if your loyalty is deserved. how much longer until that point is reached?
Such painful lessons we all have needed to learn.
Larry’s book “God the Rod and your Child’s Bod” essentially taught that if you parent your children correctly you will not have problems with the terrible twos or the teenage years. He was part of the PDI problem from the start- do it right, jump through the right hoops, and everything will turn out right. I am sorry for what he has suffered, but these things had to get burned out of him.
From all accounts (such as ExMom talking with Doris)the Tomczaks are trying hard to repent and make past wrongs right, which is more than we can say for certain other leaders. May God bless them.
Most comments against Josh’s books are really taking his sayings out of context and not being true to his book. It’s not the case just for the criticisms of his book but also the case of many other comments in this blog. That is actually bad SGM Survivors, because it makes you all be taken less seriously. If one is taking things out of context and not making an objective criticism, why should someone take that person seriously? For example, many of you have said Josh Harris promotes the parents making decisions for their kids and that is not true. He does promote seeking counsel and trusting to some degree the counsel of godly parents but he also wrote: “Just as no courtship should be disconnected from the involvement of others, neither should it be controlled or manipulated by other people. A biblical attitude is one that humbly seeks the help of others. But this doesn’t mean that we should rely on others to make the final decision about whom and when we marry. The very serious and binding commitment of marriage is something that only we can live out and stand by in the years to come. And for this reason no one – not parents, pastors, or friends – can make it for us. …I’ve come across some very sad stories of parents who manipulated and tried to control their children in courtship. This is wrong and unbiblical. …Good, biblical leaders will be honest and forthright, but not intrusive.” When it comes to seeking counsel from parents or others, many people have different beliefs. My mother thinks we should never seek counsel; we should only go to God. A person like her will hate Josh’s book because he encourages seeking counsel. I think a lot of criticism on BMG comes from people who have different beliefs on counsel seeking – but that doesn’t mean he is wrong for promoting what he believes to be in line with all the verses in the bible on seeking counsel.
Another thing that is often said is that Josh promotes marriage without attraction or passion. He actually says the opposite in his book. What he does say it that you should really get to know a person well, in many contexts, so that your passion and attraction is informed on reality, not on a illusion or an idea we have of someone that hasn’t been tested and proven – “Her emotions created an image of Matt that wasn’t real” (p.47). He does encourage people not to rule out others just because you’re not initially attracted to them, in order to get to know a person better and maybe find out that you are actually attracted to them. I’ve actually seen that happen several times with non-Christian friends. They were not initially attracted to someone but after hanging out with them and getting to know them better, they found out that the person whom they initially felt nothing for, was now spurring lots of feelings in them. This is not bad counsel. You might not want to personally do that, but there’s nothing wrong in getting to know someone better before ruling them out. Here are some quotes from his book that show he’s not promoting non-passionate relationships:
“Were the feelings there? You bet! Our courtship was an unforgettable time of growing to love each other passionately.”
“The skillful romance I’ve been talking about doesn’t disdain or rule out emotions and passion.”
“Are you growing in friendship, communication, and romance? …Are you growing in romantic desire for each other? Are your affections increasing? If they aren’t why do you think they’re absent? Are you trying to make the relationship work when your heart really isn’t in it?”
“It’s important that you are sexually attracted to your spouse.”
“Perhaps His plan is more wonderful than anything we could create by ourselves – whether it comes with “pomp and blare”, or quietly, “like an old friend.”
Also, many people say Josh is promoting a one-size-fits-all type of relationship when that is not true. He talks about not using the other person just because you don’t want to be alone, making sure your intentions are right, that you are ready, etc. but he’s not saying every relationship should look the same. His main points are communicating that you should do relationships in a way that won’t leave behind “a trail of broken hearts and broken promises”, of “doing relationship on purpose”, and making intimacy the reward of commitment (p.26). I don’t see anything wrong with that. What I think went wrong is that a lot of people wanted to mimic the stories in the book (I’m guilty of that) even though their situations were very different. Many also took pieces of advice out of context and tried to apply to their situations, even though Josh clarified himself several times saying not to do that. But that doesn’t happen just with his books, it happens all the time with other books, movies, and philosophies. People even take the Bible out of context all the time and try to apply to their situations. A girl once told me someone had a prophetic word for what she should do with her career and school. The counsel seemed like it wasn’t good for her because she didn’t seem to have the capacity to do all that and she was already feeling overwhelmed with much less on her plate. I asked her how she knew it was actually from God. She said that scripture says that prophecies should be encouraging and because she felt encouraged after hearing this person’s prophecy, she knew it was from God. Talk about taking scripture out of context! Years ago I’d watch romantic movies and wanted my husband (then boyfriend) to act in the same ways as in the movies (like Pride and Prejudice or other silly movies) even though our situation was so different that it was ridiculous for me to have those thoughts. Now, was that the movies’ fault? No, it was my own dumb fault. In the same way, just because some people misapplied and misunderstood his book, it doesn’t mean it’s his fault. Many other people applied the principals from the book and were really benefitted.
“It’s a time for the couple to get to know each other without outside pressure or overly high expectations.”
“As you keep reading, remember that God doesn’t have a one-size-fits-all plan for relationships. We all have very different lives- we vary in age, cultural background, and circumstances, to name just a few…God isn’t asking us to copy each other but to fix our eyes on our Lord and Master Jesus Christ and pusue courtship in way that’s faithful to His character.”
“Remember, you’re under no obligation to get married. A successful courtship is one in which two people treat each other with holiness and sincerity and make a wise choice about marriage – whether the choice is yes or no.”
“Don’t let pressure from others, fear of being alone, or a craving for marriage lead you to make a foolish decision.”
Sorry for any misspellings or grammar errors – I typed all this rather quickly cause I have lots to do today
Somebody please help me get my jaw off of the floor….
“Holy bomb drop, Batman!”
The SGM Spin doctors will probably be hard at work trying to defend this new “attack” on all of their ‘goodness”.
I venture to say that Dave Harvey will respond in about a week and let everyone know that they are now seriously taking Larry’s comments in to consideration. Although they probably won’t ask Larry to be part of the discussions.
All this will do is continue to harden SGM’s hearts even more. God is going to break SGM leadership … because He loves them so.
Crikey this story just keeps twisting and turning doesn’t it.
I hope that the pressure is building on Mahaney/Harvey to finally face up and act like “real” men – but once a spin doctor, always a spin doctor.
Fair play to Larry!
I am amazed and joyful to see Larry Tomczak speaking out and telling his story.
As a person who remembers the announcement of Larry’s departure from PDI–I knew there must be more to the story, and I knew also that they would most likely never tell us. And I just had to go on with that, knowing I was being given an incomplete story and I had no hope of hearing the truth, and I would be rebuked if I sought to know the truth. (A few years later I did get a copy of Larry’s own letter from some friends–former PDI leaders–who were closer to Larry. I have met him but would not say we really knew each other.)
As truth comes out I find myself so joyful. Not a mean-spirited pleasure in hearing unfavorable stories. But just a joy and sense of freedom.
Over and over we were told, in essence, “Don’t gossip. You don’t need to know about this. Just don’t think about it.” But I tell you that truth is better. Truth is better. Even if it is an unhappy truth.
Why did the PDI(/SGM) leaders think it was best to keep the people’s good opinion by hiding truth from us?
And I like where Larry says, “Feel free to contact us if you feel a need to revisit any past experiences.” In this he seems to show understanding that sometimes (often!) people need to talk things through. He seems to indicate that he will receive people with openness and willingness to hear them, rather than rebuking them because they “haven’t forgiven” or are “carrying bitterness.”
Not sure what’s going on today, but a ton of comments have gotten hung up in the moderation queue.
“Occasional Visitor” –
The problem is that if a book is going to engage in double-speak, as both Josh Harris’ relationship books do, it really leads to nothing but confusion. Sure, he – like all SGM pastors – gives a ton of disclaimers about what he’s supposedly NOT saying. But in the end, which messages come across more strongly?
I have the 2003 edition of IKDG right here in front of me. The first several chapters of the book pretty much trash dating – trash the idea of having a romantic relationship with someone without at the same time entertaining the possibility of marriage. Harris concludes that chapter with this:
Although of course he leaves plenty of theoretical wiggle room for additional disclaimers (for instance, possibly something like “I didn’t say ‘no dating,’ I just said ‘bad dating needs to go'”), the overall sense that the average reader will take away is one of condemnation. How many of us can truly do ANYTHING that is 100% free of “selfish” motives? The reality is that romantic attraction is a mystery, and at least some of that mystery is tangled up in our own individual (selfish) needs. It’s little wonder that so many people have read Josh’s double-speak and taken away the stronger, more emphasized notion of the negatives of non-courtship-style dating, rather than maintain an open mind.
Josh sets up false dilemmas and artificial distinctions, particularly with all the blather about “giving away pieces of one’s heart” and “guarding one’s heart.” Does it really matter if, later in the book, he tries to back-pedal a little and say that he’s NOT saying this-and-such…when the overall impression (even in the very title of IKDG) is one of total negativity toward dating?
I think all the sections of Josh’s books that you quoted serve only to underscore how unnecessary it is for those works to be re-released. Who needs to read such mealy-mouthed “Dating is sinful…but I’m not saying dating is sinful” junk?
Maybe Mickey Connelly will excommunicated Larry too. Kind of like the red queen shouting “Off his head”
Kris, thanks you for your response. You said: “dating – trash the idea of having a romantic relationship with someone without at the same time entertaining the possibility of marriage.”
Why is that so wrong? The Bible doesn’t say much on the topic except telling engaged people to marry if they can’t control their passion, to treat younger women like sisters, and for women not to awake love before it’s time. Are you saying people should have romantic relationships just for the sake of it, without entertaining the possibility of marriage? If so, why? Just trying to understand your point of view, because in my case, I had romantic relationships in the past that I SO wish I hadn’t!
I agree with you that it’s impossible to do everything without selfishness, but shouldn’t that be our goal since the Bible calls us to not be selfish? Not in a legalistic way, but in a desire to obey God?
When I read his books a while ago, it helped me see how my desire for relationships was just so I wouldn’t be alone because I feared what others thought. His book actually helped me see that was a wrong motive and not loving and I was freed to be friends with guys, and to serve the Lord as a single without wasting time selfishly trying to protect my image.
Diego wrote:
“I was a new christian and new to SG in that time period. (CF) So many singles afraid to be alone together. Alot of good group social events, but as that group grew older, many stayed single. A good brother was Matthew 18 out of the church for dating and going too far. Wouldn’t marry the girl he was dating. So many singles from SG policy that Andy Farmer wrote the book…The Rich Single Life…look at the cover of that book, and you can see the young people of that generation who’s life was affected by SG policy. Because of the SG policy on “dating/groups” there is no 2nd SG generation for many of those…”
I think you meant to send this to Steve240 and not Steve 150
I agree with you. I would see an unusual amount of older singles that you would have thought would be married (men and women) at CLC which I attributed a lot to their teaching of not dating but doing things in groups and how it made singles almost afraid of any interaction or closeness with those of the opposite sex.
One question on my blog I posed to Carolyn McCulley who wrote “Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?” was that maybe Kissing Dating Goodbye may have lead to her (possibly) kissing marriage goodbye.
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/does-kissing-dating-goodbye-lead-to-kissing-marriage-goodbye/
Here is one post. This writer talks about how the “kissing dating goodbye” mentality hindered him from having the socials skills needed to meet a partner. I am sure this has been the case in CLC both before and after IKDG came out.
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life/relationship/features/17083-i-kissed-dating-goodbye-but-where-did-it-go
Diego – you are correct, no second generation except for the hard core SGMer’s whose courtships were allowed by the pastoral staff of which ever church it was (same stories across the board). The rest of them were expected to be slaves, I mean “serve” the marrieds……
Glad to see Larry is finally coming clean about what happened. Unfortunately, he should have done that YEARS ago. Is it integrity to come clean when everyone else is doing it or it is integrity to come clean when they are standing up alone?
The next question is will he come clean about the damaging books he wrote like “God, The Rod and your child’s Bod”? Or the fact that SGM is a repackaged version of the Shepparding movement with Gotthardism thrown in for good measure?
I really hope he does – it would be great to see a founder admit to that what so many other already know.
Blues0080 #2 –
CJ reminds me of Pharaoh. How many plagues have to be rained down on SGM before they will finally, “Let God’s people go”?
I found this quite interesting what Larry states:
“Note: This quote appeared on the cover page of a paper I submitted to SGM leaders one year after our 1997 departure, “An Appeal for Repentance, Reconciliation and Closure.”
The paper cited the names of 61 former leaders who experienced mistreatment (the list is currently over 100) and included an appeal for a forum where “individuals with outstanding offenses and unresolved issues could be addressed…these issues will not simply fade away but will continue lingering for years until dealt with redemptively and honestly.” I received no response from any team leaders to the paper or appeal for adjudication. Date of submission: December 1998.”
Larry Tomczak is stating that even back in 1998 there were 61 former leaders indicating mistreatment. That is quite a number.
In the Nick #17;
Absolutely.
I can hear Jesus Christ – the living Risen Head of His Church walking among the churches saying;
“C J – I want My Bride back!”.
Don’t loose faith. God will raise up shepherds after His heart. He is our shepherd. He will use this to help His flock hear His voice. He does hear our prayers!! Those interested in preserving their legacy rather than drawing close to Jesus can’t continue to lead SG in pharasee/legalistic ways.
“Occasional Visitor” said,
What I’m saying is, there is a HUGE difference between entering into an immoral physical, sexual relationship and lightheartedly associating with someone whom you find attractive/interesting (and with whom you feel that romantic spark) but aren’t necessarily thinking you might want to marry.
In social circles where Josh Harris’ books have gained a lot of traction, what happens is that even just liking a member of the opposite sex has become something quasi-sinful and fraught with all kinds of implications. Young men and women don’t dare spend any one-on-one time with one another without starting the whole heavy courtship process, practically whether they want to or not, because in those social circles, the assumptions will start flying almost from the first moment a couple go out for coffee or something.
What that does is create a burdensome heaviness to the spouse-finding process…and deprive young adults of a very important part of growing up – having opportunities to get to know people of the opposite sex, in a way where attraction is understood and acknowledged, and being able to figure out just what sort of person you like and might want to marry.
The consequences of this heavyladen system are many. I think we’ve all seen couples dash into courtships and end up together when they weren’t actually completely smitten with one another. Sure, they can slave away at drumming up affections…many do…and for some, this works out. Some don’t know any better. They jump through all the hoops of mandatory date nights and the like, and they build workable marriages.
But a lot of these people are, when you get down to it, emotionally and socially stunted. All that fear of “giving away pieces of your heart” has created a lot of young adults (now older adults) who never learned how to put romantic love into proper perspective. Anybody they halfway found attractive had to become their spouse – or they were “lusting after another woman’s husband.” This takes on even more baggage if you are a young lady raised with some of the other SGM unspoken expectations about your “true calling” only being that of wife and mother. Your whole identity is wrapped up in finding a man…or letting him believe that he found you. An emphasis on serious, deliberate courtship raises the stakes in the game. A guy is not going to want to spend time with any girl unless he’s pretty darn sure she’s “the one.” So these gals don’t get any opportunities to love someone, experience a bit of heartbreak, and figure out for themselves that the guy wasn’t what they wanted after all. The girls are deprived of a very important piece of growing up, of figuring out who they are as women.
Instead, because their entire “true destiny” is tied up in finding a man, they can easily feel an inappropriate level of desperation – the “It’s the last bus out of town” mentality – when a guy finally might express an interest in courting them.
How much better for them to be able to go out to the movies with a guy…or go bowling…or go out for dinner…maybe even fall in love a little bit with him…and then get a little tired of him and decide he’s not for you…and gain some confidence through this process…for THEN, when the right one comes along, this girl will be much more confident and a whole lot less desperate.
(Once again – I am NOT talking about engaging in sexual immorality prior to marriage. That’s not the kind of experience I’m talking about. What I think is so necessary for young people is to be able to have what I would think of as romantically tinged friendships…perhaps one or two, prior to meeting “The One”…where the guy and the girl could openly like one another without it having to be this big dramatic serious deal.)
Looking to the Bible for specific ideas of how the spouse-finding process is supposed to happen is not very helpful, actually. Here are some “biblical” ways to find a mate:
1.Find an attractive prisoner of war, bring her home, shave her head, trim her nails, and give her new clothes. Then she’s yours. – (Deuteronomy 21:11-13)
2.Find a prostitute and marry her. – (Hosea 1:1-3)
3.Find a man with seven daughters, and impress him by watering his flock. – Moses (Ex 2:16-21)
4.Purchase a piece of property, and get a woman as part of the deal. – Boaz (Ruth 4:5-10)
5.Go to a party and hide. When the women come out to dance, grab one and carry her off to be your wife. – Benjaminites (Judges 21:19-25)
6.Have God create a wife for you while you sleep. Note: this will cost you. – Adam (Gen 2:19-24)
7.Agree to work seven years in exchange for a woman’s hand in marriage. Get tricked into marrying the wrong woman. Then work another seven years for the woman you wanted to marry in the first place. That’s right. Fourteen years of toil for a wife. – Jacob (Genesis 29:15-30)
8.Cut 200 foreskins off of your future father-in-law’s enemies and get his daughter for a wife – David (I Samuel 18:27)
9.Even if no one is out there, just wander around a bit and you’ll definitely find someone. (It’s all relative, of course.) – Cain (Genesis 4:16-17)
10.Become the emperor of a huge nation and hold a beauty contest. – Xerxes or Ahasuerus (Esther 2:3-4)
11.When you see someone you like, go home and tell your parents, “I have seen a … woman; now get her for me.” If your parents question your decision, simply say, “Get her for me. She’s the one for me.” – Samson (Judges 14:1-3)
12.Kill any husband and take HIS wife (Prepare to lose four sons, though). – David (2 Samuel 11)
13.Wait for your brother to die. Take his widow. (It’s not just a good idea; it’s the law.) – Onana and Boaz (Deuteronomy or Leviticus, example in Ruth)
14.Don’t be so picky. Make up for quality with quantity. – Solomon (1 Kings 11:1-3)
15.A wife?…NOT? – Paul (1 Corinthians 7:32-35)
The bottom line is, young people need to be taught boundaries. And the utter foolishness of condemning “giving away parts of one’s heart” needs to be ditched. Young people need to be encouraged to get to know one another…and assured that if they find someone attractive and want to spend time with that person, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they must immediately think of marrying that person…or that they’re sinning for feeling that way (“lusting after another woman’s husband”).
Boundaries. Biblical boundaries. Not this courtship foolishness.
Leo said:
“Diego – you are correct, no second generation except for the hard core SGMer’s whose courtships were allowed by the pastoral staff of which ever church it was (same stories across the board). The rest of them were expected to be slaves, I mean “serve” the marrieds……”
I don’t know if I would go quite that far. The doing things in groups and “courtship” concepts worked well for certain types of individuals and they are the ones that tended to married. It was those it didn’t work for due to various reasons that tended to not get married. The reasons it didn’t work as well for some people was their limited social skills, not functioning the best in groups or maybe not as well socially connected as others.
Sadly leaders assumed that what worked well for some worked well for all. Leadership would even highlight these testimonies of how well is supposedly worked.
The sad result is that there are a lot of older singles that never married due to the damage that the only do things in groups and “courtship” caused.
I got Kris by doing #10
I pray that I will never be famous enough to have a tom___.com. The deference shown to Christian leaders sickens me.
I didn’t check all of Occasional Visitor’s JH quotes, but those I did check were from Boy Meets Girl, which appeared years after IKDG. I imagine in the interim theory had collided with reality, and in BMG JH wisely toned things down.
Kris in response to your post 22, here is one blog post I have that includes what Josh Harris supposedly kissed by.
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/what-is-%E2%80%9Cdating%E2%80%9D-and-what-did-harris-supposedly-%E2%80%9Ckiss-goodbye%E2%80%9D/
Dating can mean a lot of things. As I state in this blog entry, Josh Harris did indicate in his latest IKDG “update” message, “Romance Revisited”, that the title of his book was “confusing.” He said that he could have said I kissed “short term premature selfish directionless romantic relationships” goodbye but that would be too long of a title for a book. Maybe Harris will clarify this if he revises his book.
Sadly people have taken what Harris supposedly meant as kissing supposedly “short term premature selfish directionless romantic relationships” goodbye as being afraid of any type of relationship with the opposite sex unless it is with the intention of marriage.
One can do things (like go bowling etc) without it being a “premature relationship.” One can have friendships etc. Unfortunately IKDG and “Boy Meets Girl” doesn’t clearly make this distinction.
Larry thinks that his story is the most egregious and ignominious example of deceit and abusive behavior? :barf:
Read the blog Larry! Dozens of examples of non SGM royalty bearing more humiliation and contempt, experiencing more loss with no residual income from book deals…oh whatever.
And the deceit goes on.
Wow. Just… wow.
Noel – I took it to mean that his was the most blatant abuse among leaders, but i may have misunderstood.
As far IKDG – I actually found the book too secular when I read it. *laugh* and even in rereading and rethinking things I have always walked away thinking Josh’s main point was “Don’t get involved romantically with someone you have no intention of ever considering marriage with.” and I think that’s biblical. :) But, I lived through/grew up in the “don’t even be friends with a guy or you will have sex” times and.. it sucked. my social skills with guys were zip, so I was accused of being a flirt from 16 ’til marriage. Lol.
hubby and I are open to our potential high schoolers “dating”, but under super right guidelines and only people they could/would actually consider marrying. :)
oh, and my AOR appointment is 11am Tuesday! :-O :)
Larry, like Brent, got whipped by the system he created. It’s sad, but IMHO, if there’s any further justice, he’ll get beaten by his kids, too. It’s been interesting seeing on Facebook who puts up the link to his letter.
On the previous thread, someone mentioned that Elizabeth Eliot’s book Passion and Purity came out between IKDG and BMG. Just FYI for the youngsters, I got that book 100 years ago–as I say to my students–at Urbana ’84 ( where I also got my beloved NIV which I read until it fell apart in my hands).
Anne – CLC 1986-2007
Occasional Visitor, as a CLC member, I wonder how focusing on practice instead of principle is really where Josh wants to lead right now?
We can see how focusing on external practices has worked out. It’s been divisive.
If Josh wants to come out with a new book based on a principle, now that would be nice.
acme #31 – I don’t believe that Larry or Brent feel it was the system that is (was) bad but how some people misused their authority. Both will continue to defend what they did for the most part because their intentions and ability to exercise authority was righteous what was done to them was unrighteous and just plain wrong. They don’t say they didn’t make mistakes because they have already agreed they made some.
I think in their minds the abuse levied at them was greater because they had more to lose than the rest of us. I will say they (Larry and Brent) certainly had a greater number of abusers involved where many of us just had the Shankster.
I can throw up or laugh at the ridiculousness of it all. As for me and my house, we choose laughter! :D
Just a note on focus in this post…why do we keep discussing Josh’s dating book? This post is about Larry T’s recent bomb…I’m still in shock over its content and timing. This is like Brent Detweiler part 2.
Tomcov said,
I dunno. Maybe it’s because I’d heard most of Larry’s story before. Nothing about it (beyond the fact that he and Doris have now finally spoken out) seems particularly new or shocking. Or discussion-provoking.
What do all the rest of you think?
That’s what I was thinking when TomCov posted. Most all of it was in Bent’s docs.
Tomcov –
Was something new and shocking about his post to you? Maybe you didn’t really believe the whole thing until now?
It might have been helpful if Larry would have pushed for his concerns to be heard 13 years ago? Don’t know that it would have brought about any change or not – but it might have. So, in some sense, he has contributed to the continued abuses, yet he was abused also, just as Brent.
Larry said: “It is probably one of the most egregious and ignominious examples of deceit and abusive behavior surfacing in SGM at this time.”
Larry, may I invite you to do some reading?
Noel’s Story
Wallace’s Story
ExCLCer’s Story
SGMnot’s Story
Esther’s Story
Set Free’s Story
Defended & Defender’s Story
Taylor’s Story
In most of these stories children were adversely affected by leaders in SGM. These stories can be found in the search section of this blog or Jim’s Refuge blog.
Happymom @37: So true! Well said!
Also, this quote ostensibly from Dave Harvey defines one of the roles of the blogs:
Mr. Harvey, the folks writing and commenting on this blog and refuge ARE your tutors! We ARE revealing your true motives by communicating your actions (for all to see openly) AND revealing the serious deficiencies in your methodology. The question now is, will you and all SGM leaders respond to this severe test from God? Listen? Repent? And Change?
Just read this at Jim’s site:
“over 115K unique visitors in November.”
People are reading!
So, any guesses on the 2012 Gospel Coalition lineup this year? Last year it was in April. Are CJ and Dave gonna be in the top tier again, staunchly defended to the thousands of attendees by Mohler, Ortland, etc? Or do you think maybe the big dogs might be seeing the light and will remove them from the speaker list?
I’m glad Larry is going public with his story, but I can’t help but think out loud that if everything that has already happened hasn’t brought real reform, I don’t see this doing much to help, but it does shine more light into the real SGM. I see how the monster these men created is inexorably turning on all of them. They talk about discipline of God, I see it more as the judgement of God on SGM as an organization. God is not mocked, what you sow, that will you reap.
Sheperds care for the sheep, bind their wounds, heal their brokeness, fight off the wolves. Hirelings run because they don’t care about the sheep, they care about themselves. I think we all are seeing who the true sheperds in SGM are and who are the hirelings.
I pray for eyes to open, hearts to heal, and true reformation!
Kris, # 22
Excellent Post!!!!
Bravo for uncovering these amazing stories from scripture….. They are almost unbelievable… Churches can be so lame sometimes, to pick and choose just a barely relevant scriptures to support their positions…
IKDG fans, please read these…..
and then go and date… if you make a mistake, and/or get your heart broken, welcome to the club!
It’s life, and to be learned from…. God is sovereign and in control….
I have a question that might bridge the current post w/ the possible re-release of Boy Meets Girl —
If one wanted to write an academically-oriented history of Sovereign Grace Ministries, could it be done and where would one find the primary source material to do so?
In most cases, if one wanted to write the history of a late 20th century North American denomination and/or church movement, it would be a fairly (emphasize fairly) straightforward process — interviews of participants; archived sermon series (including old cassettes) from the flagship churches; old denominational magazines or newsletters; papers, notes and/or audio/video from conferences; extant personal letters or correspondence. I’ve heard a number of folks here on the blog talking about cassette series, but do most of our denomination’s churches maintain archives? If one wanted to listen/analyze, say, CLC sermons from the 1980s, is it possible to find such material? Who has Mahaney or Tomczak archive material? If one wanted to compare Josh Harris’ Boy Meets Girl with what was being preached and taught throughout the movement in the 1970s and 1980s, where could one go to find such material? Church basements or attics? NOTE — I’m not planning this type of project, but I have an interest in whether such a history will be possible to write in the future.
glad,
I can’t take credit for putting together that list in my #22. It’s been around for awhile…but it always seems to fit when the conversation gets around to labeling a particular social practice as “biblical.”
The truth is, we Christians look ridiculous when we try to take circumstances from Bible stories and call them “normative.” That requires us to read selectively, to say the least.
Ozymandias,
I could be wrong – I hope I am – but I have this feeling that a lot of the materials necessary for such an undertaking are not going to be easily available in the future.
I mean, CJ’s Facebook page was casually taken down…and not for any reason that made sense. Sermon sound files disappear all the time. Worse, they are sometimes edited to remove segments that pastors don’t want floating around out there. I can remember how SGM’s Wikipedia article used to read, too, where SGM was said to have been founded by CJ Mahaney (no mention of Larry T – he was effectively written out of SGM’s history).
It just seems like SGM is exceptionally adept at managing its own story, so that what the non-SGM public perceives is nothing more or less than what SGM’s leaders want them to know.
Just wondering… is it new that Larry uses the term “blackmail” when discussing his son’s history/sin/situation?
Also, can someone clarify if one of those sons with his “waywardness” was one of the perpetrators in Happymom’s family? Or is that someone else’s family? If I am completely wrong on this, please call me on this.
Kris-
I think that Larry coming out with some of his side of the story is interesting, but not all that earth shattering. In fact, I don’t feel that it cost Larry very much to be coming out now with this info…and I still think that Larry is culpable (as is Brent) for not speaking out and warning folks about CJ and PDI/SGM earlier…like a decade earlier!
:trainwreck
I was asked a question about a post on the previous thread so I’ll try to address it here and tie it into the current topic:
Jedi Said: Are you saying that after a period of years while you were looking for justice, that God gave you that affirmation? Do you mind sharing how that happened?
Jedi,
When you are in an unhealthy church system you end up idolizing the church and the leaders. You put them up on a pedestal where they maintain a place where God only should occupy. When you feel wronged by them it is as if God himself has wronged you, and if you feel God has wronged you then there is no other conclusion to come to other than you are guilty. So the only way we believe we can remove this stigma is to have those who gave us the stigma repent and take it away. Otherwise we feel deep down we can never feel good about ourselves again. We gave the church and it’s leaders the sole right to determine if we were right with God. We don’t know any other way to operate other than under this system. Sure people can tell you to get your affirmation, assurance, and love directly from God, but it’s been drilled into you that your status with God is determined by your status with the church. So no matter what anyone tells you or you tell yourself, there is this tremendous need to get the church to give you your status back.
The first thing you have to do is repent. Here’s the hard news I had to swallow about myself. By getting into this kind of system I was rebelling against God. Yes that’s right. While I was faithfully going to church 3, 4, and sometimes 5 times a week, and while I was doing everything I could to be supportive and loyal to the church, and all that I did in supposed service to God in serving the church; IT WAS ALL REBELLION. I served a system rather than God. This is what Paul is trying to tell the Galatians over and over again, and the Colossians, and many other places in the NT. The reason the church and it’s leaders had the power over my life that it did was because I gave it to them. It was up to me to instead surrender to God and forge a relationship directly with Him apart from systems.
This is a process that takes years. There is so much you have to unlearn, re-learn, and learn for the first time. You have to abandon all the filters from your past and let God’s Word soak into you as it is written and not how it has always been explained to you. You have to resist that tendency to want a human being to tell you that you’re ok with God. You can’t go running to the next church for validation to tell you how mean your former church was. At first this is really scarey. Getting rid of your crutches that have been based on law almost feels like rebellion because that’s what you’ve been told all those years. Your choices have always been presented as be right with your church or be wrong with God. It is a liberating process, but you have to constantly keep focusing on God and the things above (Col. 3:1) and don’t let your mind go back to the old ways of thinking.
We have sure entered a new wiki-era with even Larry speaking out. I am thankful to finally hear from the horse’s mouth but, I would have hoped for a more detailed disclosure. Still, what we have here is a baby step in the right direction. It may take Larry a little time to find his voice after having his mouth taped shut for years.
It is kind of Larry to be gracious to those who sin against him. But, he of all people, is in a position to confront CJ. He knows him like no other. One would hope that he is working behind the scenes even now to confront CJ but there is not a hint of that. I guess Brent is still the only Nathan in CJ’s life and unfortunately he was chewed-up and spit-out.
Dave, Carolyn, Jeff, John and Gary…it is time for you to step up to the plate!
Ozymandias-
SGM has all the materials you are looking for, but access would be iffy/non-existent. They even have a copy of bob Kaufflin’s “Heroic Piano” on vinyl. http://www.migliacci.com/music/details/5381.html.
There is no other one stop shop. There are members that may have a collection of materials. I have about four hundred cassettes of sermon/celebration messages that go back to the 80’s if you are interested.
People of destiny magazine has never been placed into an online archive, however I am sure that some posting here would have a box of them somewhere. They are a great read
as the older issues have a much more radical in your face presentation of their Shepherding principals along side professions of the outright evils of the world we live in.
There is one SGM member that has started his own archive of photos and CLC bulletins, not much of a repository of theological stances of the past though.
Kris is on point that SGM is adept at not leaving much of a trail.
The internet wayback machine, when working, can give you some nice snapshots of the PDI/SGM website over the years. Search http://www.pdinet.org when there. It’s a mixed bag,
but useful for dates and trends.
The archives of this site can be useful as well, as there are many testimonies from former early CLC/GOB/TAG members