A Question, And Continuing Discussion…
December 11, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
I have a question. Perhaps there’s an answer out there already and I’ve just missed it. Perhaps some of you might know. My question is this:
What is going to happen with the end result of the efforts of the Ambassadors of Reconciliation?
We know they are conducting interviews and compiling some sort of report which will presumably contain their conclusions. What will be done with that report? Will Sovereign Grace Ministries make a full and unabridged version available for all who’d like to read it?
——————————-
We can also continue all general discussions in the comments for this post. I’ve been having an interesting time as moderator lately. Behind the scenes, I have received quite a lot of feedback about the different directions the conversations have gone. Some people have appreciated certain commenters’ efforts. Many others have expressed extreme frustration over the fact that I’m not moderating more. For every “Thank you for writing that!” comment that appears on the site, or for every “Welcome back, Such-and-Such, we’ve missed you,” there are probably a half-dozen messages that get sent to me saying, “PLEASE tell Such-and-Such that his contributions are a huge distraction.”
Like I said, moderating can get interesting. Generally, we don’t try to control or direct the discussions, unless it starts to feel like a commenter is monopolizing the conversation with his own special hobby horse, or unless (as disclosed in the “Read This Before Posting” tab) a commenter persists in trying to promote a view that we personally believe deviates too far from what we feel to be orthodox Christianity.
So, if there’s a particular commenter who bugs you, probably the best way to deal with that is to scroll past his or her posts.
At the same time, I would ask that we all try to police ourselves, perhaps a bit better than we have been. Especially if you have no firsthand experience with SGM, and/or if you find yourself posting multiple lengthy comments that don’t directly relate to SGM, that might indicate that what you’re wishing to discuss belongs somewhere else.
I hope this clarifies the moderating process.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
It Appears clergy abuse is quite wide-spread
http://fisheaters.com/clergysexabuse.html
Kris, let me preface my comment by saying that I am a longtime and current CLC member. I want to let you know how much I appreciate your wisdom and ability to cogently analyze and summarize so much of what has happened. It is very clear in the way you write and haw you moderate this forum that your desire is to see God’s name glorified – as is the desire of every true Christian.
Also MAK #652 from last thread – Bob Kauflin was at the Terry Virgo meeting last night.
KMD,
Thanks for the kind words.
RE Seneca’s comment, we probably need to clarify that (as far as I know) none of the sex abuse situations within SGM involved a perpetrator who was an SGM pastor.
To repeat, to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a situation in which an SGM pastor was the perpetrator of sexual abuse.
However, there have been several situations wherein pastors’ responses to victims of sex abuse have been inappropriate – to the point where victims were told something to the effect of, “Forgive and forget,” while perpetrators were offered more sympathy and protection.
I continue to be curious – does anyone know what the plans are for the report/analysis that will be generated by the Ambassadors of Reconciliation?
It’s not like AoR is some sort of governing body that has any power to issue rulings or do anything else that would force SGM to make specific changes. For AoR’s report to have any real impact, it’s like it depends upon the honor system or something…OR, upon pressure from public opinion – which would only happen if SGM allows AoR to publish its report for everyone to read.
A couple of times on the SGM blog, Dave Harvey has said that they will publish in full the AoR report.
I notice that he also said that they will publish in full the reports of the three pastors’ panels looking into three questions raised about C.J. Mahaney — along with the SGM Board responses (plans of action or rebuttals?) once they have read the reports and prepared their reply.
So, SGM has promised that they will publish what AoR gives them, though they have not promised they will agree or act accordingly.
It seems to me that honor would require that AoR make at least some of its conclusions public.
If AoR spends time evaluating the situation, and determines SGM to be unhealthy (not only within itself, but an unhealthy environment for church members), and only tells the SGM board without informing the church members of the risk to their spiritual well-being–
I don’t think that that kind of silence is justified by the fact that it’s SGM that is paying them. They have a greater responsibility to humanity, specifically the members.
So I hope that no false consideration will persuade AoR to keep their evaluation from being known publicly. At least a detailed summary. Though I think the whole report should be openly disseminated.
Kris,
I spoke with Ted Kober on Wednesday for over an hour. The SGM board will receive a full report, and will publish the full report.
Any action taken based on AoR’s report is completely up to the SGM board. That’s just how it works.
Kris,
You’re a GREAT moderator! I challenge folks to find a better one. (They sure won’t find one with a bigger heart!) :)
Sidney,
Thank you! I’m so relieved I didn’t offend or hurt you. And your “quiverfull reference” is indeed an example.
Res Ipsa,
Thanks for your comment about Vince. That’s consistent with what I’ve always heard and ocassionally observed firsthand.
My contribution to the Terry Virgo/Newfrontiers discussion…
(I had quite a few sites bookmarked on Virgo but unfortunately the links are no longer working. These were the only ones I could get to work.)
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Terry_Virgo
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Newfrontiers
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Restorationism
My contribution to the Calvinism/Arminianism discussion…
“What Calvinism And Arminianism Have In Common” http://www.apologeticsindex.org/2644-what-calvinism-and-arminianism-have-in-common
HowDee YaAll,
SGM (sayz): “PLEASE tell Such-and-Such that their contributions @ Survivors are a huge distraction.”
(grin)
hahahahahaha
Sopy ;~)
Re New Frontiers-
I just contacted a Reformed Charismatic pastor we know somewhat well and respect highly, to ask why it was he had decided not to join that group. I knew he had looked into it closely some years back as he had zero desire to be in SGM, but would have liked to be in a broader association than just his local church.
He said- to echo Irv- that Terry Virgo is by all accounts a great guy. However, there were at that time maybe 30-40 NF churches (out of hundreds) that were so over the top, off the wall, into Toronto renewal manifestations, so beyond scripture and focused on this stuff that he could not join. He said there was no indication that Virgo had publically warned them or tried to steer them into a more biblical direction. We all know that when God moves there are excesses- even Jonathan Edwards had that- but some New Frontiers Churches were extreme, and there was no rebuke, no correction. It is a plus that Virgo is not a control freak and leaves churches alone, but even John Wimber had to dump the Vineyards that went off into unbiblical extremes.
If you are Reformed, when you join an association and get together with other pastors and leaders, do you want to be with guys who say they believe in Calvinism but their hearts are into having holy laughter and everybody falling on the floor and a lot of extra wierdness, or do you want to be around pastors whose goal is to help the congregation understand the great truths of the sovereignty of God and know the Word, while asking for the Holy Spirit to be poured out?
Virgo sounds good on a personal level, but joining up with NF- for CLC or any other SGM churches- could just be out of the frying pan into the fire when it comes to big messes.
Jim #9 said:
Through all of this SGM unfolding tragedy, one thing that has been painfully revealed to me is just how powerless I am as a mere church member! It is ALL up to someone else and they don’t listen to the likes of me! (Of course, they MAY, but that is ONLY if THEY want to!)
So, THEY (SGM Board, etc.) chose to use thousand of people-like-me’s money. Now THEY will read this report and we all will, too, if they do actually post it. But the final result is that any changes, that will be made, will be decided by THEM not me.
I don’t want to sound naive, but I guess I have been! I always had a “we’re all in this together” concept from being a member in SGM..WE are the church right? NOT just the buildings!! It was drilled into our heads in songs and sermons and books…now, I really don’t feel that way any more.
It all about THEM. As far as ME? Well, my only recourse as a member in a church, such as this, is to vote with my feet and go somewhere else…of course, after telling THEM, what I think–but, so what–it’s all rather “castrating” metaphorically-speaking!
Off topic, just want a quick answer for a quick question. Can someone give me the definition of lovebombing and some examples? Thanks
I’m not sure CLC needs to align themselves with any one person or group. Sounds to me like Josh et al are casting about in search of appropriate new polity adjustments to correct some of the errors of the past 30 years, not so much a new parent organization.
Anyway, it was very refreshing to hear from Terry Virgo this week. We heard him give 3 teachings. I am pretty sure that we have never heard so much mention of Jesus in all our years at CLC. The messages were sorely needed and long overdue.
As far as cleaning house at CLC, I find it interesting that those most interested in reform at CLC seem to be the oldest members, ones that have been in SGM for 20+ years. Not many 20-30 year old members seem to participate in the CLC members’ blog, attend member’s meetings or sit on the 3 ad hoc panels. I am a bit concerned about their apparent apathy.
HowDee YaAll,
Many have dumped Sovereign Grace Ministries churches because they went off into unbiblical extremes…
Many have dumped Sovereign Grace Ministries churches simply because they as individuals, have been marginalized, abused, lied to, blackmailed, controlled, manipulated, slienced or just made to feel darn uneasy.
(…and to think they paid for the privilege!?!)
Wow!
Blame?
“Best place on earth, huh?
think again…
hahahahahahaha
Sopy ;~)
I have been doing some research on Virgo and the Toronto blessing controversy. This is a very lengthy but extremely interesting article (there is a part 1 and 2) by the Evangelical Alliance in the UK on the whole Toronto thing and how it came there, if anyone is interested. Terry Virgo is mentioned quite a bit. I am interested because Virgo seems to be so popular, so I wanted to see the roots, or history of TB and NF.
http://www.eauk.org/resources/publications/upload/torontointro.pdf
http://www.eauk.org/theology/key_papers/upload/TorontoChronicle.pdf
Ok, here is an update on Terry Virgo speaking Sunday morning at CLC. He spoke about Jesus being present with us through the Holy Spirit He has given us. Afterward we prayed and worshiped God much longer than usual. Many people came forward to pray, though only a small part of the whole congregation this time.
There was a lot happening and I could not see all of it, but I did see some things that left a deep impression on me. One teenager who was notoriously unconverted went forward and was praying very seriously. I saw his mother a distance away, sobbing intensely, apparently with joy. There were several people present who have been chronically ill, who have gone to some of the best medical research facilities in the world without being cured. They made great effort just to show up and seemed desperate for prayer. They were surrounded by crowds of their friends praying much more expressively than normal.
We sang many older songs that were not typical, like “Pour out your Spirit Oh Lord”, “We are desperate for your touch”, and even one dating back to the Jesus Movement from the 1970s: “There is a Redeemer” by Melody Green. There were many tears and heart felt prayer. Some people were kneeling or lying on the floor, but I did not see much of “Toronto Blessing” style laughing, screaming, or falling.
I think from my perspective here in the UK, Terry Virgo and Newfrontiers involvement in the Toronto Blessing was just an event in their history. Terry and they handled it more biblically than many. Terry didn’t make it “ALL” about what they were and where they were going.
He spoke several times during 1994-1996 when the TB was most active and essentially welcomed the Holy Spirit’s activity and blessing. He would also always ask “where was the fruit?” if people fell to the floor or shook etc. He would cite positively marriages that were saved, relationships with God that were restored through this time.
But you very rarely hear the Toronto Blessing mentioned in Newfrontiers circled now, other than a “season of refreshing” that they were and are grateful for. C J Mahaney on the other hand as I understand it (like my former pastor) got freaked out by the excesses he saw and made it an excuse to back out of any activity of the Person of the Holy Spirit.
What I truly believe Terry’s visit will do for Covenant Life Church is remind them that it is POSSIBLE and very EASY to be a sensible Charismatic who welcomes and embraces the work of the Holy Spirit – but can also be an avid reader, thinker. All the things that C J purports to be – but isn’t really.
Thanks SGMSingle for reporting back – been thinking of you all!
Praying that this visitation of God will profoundly affect the church! We love you all!
I received 2 short emails this week…one from a friend in another SGM church and another from and SGM pastor on the west coast…both were basically the same…
“we are praying for you during this difficult time…we understand that this current situation is very challenging for CLC and we pray that you know peace as you walk through it.”
My first reaction is, isn’t ALL OF SGM walking through the same situation? A lot of people in SGM have now labled this as a CLC problem.
To the point of this thread…my concern is that even after the AOR report has been published, there are probably a lot of people who will not read it either because of apathy or because they did not believe in the process. I’ve been surprised in the number of people who still have their heads in the sand.
I agree with Persona #16
Dan #20…Terry did just that at CLC this weekend!!
Dan,
I believe something significant IS happening. Some things I saw just can’t be faked.
BTW, here is a link to that song we sang “There is a Redeemer”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQSuTP5OHBE
Man, oh SGMSingle
I love that song! Something I have found often happens when Terry is ministering – simple, love songs to Jesus.
Yes of course He is our Saviour. But He is also our Abba, our Daddy, the lover of our souls. And let’s not forget that important aspect that the Holy Spirit often brings when He is actually allowed to move and minister and love on the Bride of Christ!!
Mak – #23
Yes! Glad to hear it! I’ve listened to Terry LOTS! :D
Previous thread…want to make clear the analogies were Been There’s, NOT Patti’s. My mistake. Again…NOT Patti’s analogy. Thanks!
Forgot…previous thread, #527 and #528, is what I was just referring to.
Kris, thanks for the post. Sorry for my tangents; I find the Calving/Armenian discussion interesting, especially since leaving SGM and realizing that I’m actually NOT unsaved or going to hell for maybe not being a Calvinist after all…(or at least thinking it’s debatable). How I relate the topic to SGM is that I believe they use their (perhaps hyper) Calvinist view to promote spiritual tyranny and authoritarian leadership, plain and simple. But I hope I was not derailing from the topic of SGM utterly; that wasn’t my intention. For me, just it ALL goes back to my distaste for SGM. Thanks!
The Wartburgwatch did a post on Virgo a year or so ago.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/03/02/terry-virgo-one-of-c-j-mahaney%e2%80%99s-longtime-friends/
I always get uncomfortable when Wikipedia is quoted as some sort of authoritative resource…and when there’s implied guilt-by-association (i.e., CJ Mahaney and Terry Virgo are friends…our “investigations” prove CJ is bad…therefore Terry Virgo must be bad).
Diane,
Thank you so much for those links(#18). I am an avid student of history, and I am going to read through those today. One of my main interests is church history.
I’m very interested to hear of the recent developments with Terry Virgo’s ministry, and its effects at CLC. He seems to be a person that has developed a good balance between being grounded in sound doctrine on the one hand, and yet is also able to experience the freedom of the Holy Spirit. With what little I’ve seen I would have a tendency to agree that he appears to be one that would lean more in erring on the side of letting too much happen rather than too little, but as a guest minister I don’t see that as being significant. If he can demonstrate that you can have the life of the Spirit and the joy of the Lord then that’s a great message! I’m still puzzled as to how SGM, CLC, etc. got so deep into this overly morbid obsession with personal sin, but if the recent events with Terry Virgo can help break through that then that can’t be anything but positive. Of course I’m sure the folks who are there are just hoping that there is follow-up in the weeks to come by the local leadership there and not just a one-time event.
Just as a little aside as to my background, I am Charismatic in the sense that I believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today, and I pray in tongues each day (although mostly to myself). At the same time though I’ve struggled with trying to figure out exactly what is the best way to allow the freedom of the Spirit to move in a church without opening the door to excesses and foolishness as well as the manipulation that can come with exercising the gifts.
With regards to the first few posts above, Terry Virgo’s movement has also experienced problems with authoritarian leadership, though with it’s own spin as their belief of ‘fourfold ministry’ encompasses the office of ‘apostle’ (who in practice takes on the air of near infallibility).
See here:
http://eutychus.free.fr/nfiabuse
Also http://eutychus.free.fr/toxic.htm
Many of the behaviours described will be familiar to those who have experienced the SGM
“When the crisis point came, I realised that NewFrontiers had no room for seeking outside help to solve the problem. They were judge, jury, and court of appeal, because they had the “apostolic anointing”.”
“The accusations made against me sounded highly spiritual (a “spirit of Jezabel”). If the people involved had actually believed this, that would still be serious. To my mind the real drama is that this was not something the accusers really believed. This vocabulary was deliberately used to trouble the church while the real objective – my removal – was achieved.”
I just finished this article written by someone from the UK –Virgo and NF are mentioned. Scroll down to the “Here in the UK” heading. (Although the rest of the article is interesting as well.) Not such a positive view of Virgo.
http://crichbaptist.org/blog/hungry-for-power-the-new-apostolic-reformation/
Kris, I was glad to hear the AoR were not going to share the identities of those who share their stories with them. But I don’t really know how they can hide their identities very well. Each story would be easily identifiable by the Pastors, places and storylines.
As far as publishing them in their entirety, Dave H. did mention on his blog that they planned to do that. But then they did retract CJ’s ‘repentance’ speech and disinvite Larry Tomczak to the Pastor’s Conference so, they have a pattern of one step forward, two steps back in their engagement with the process so, we can’t be sure of anything they say anymore.
I concur with other posters that if they do indeed publish any findings, it doesn’t actually mean they will agree with the complaints, make reparations or reform their ways.
They cast Brent’s complaints to the winds and then threw him under the bus. Worse, they forbid his former church to speak to him or read anything he writes. So, what hope have we that CJ or Dave will do anything but officially reinstall CJ and live the rest of their lives in denial?
At this point, we need to pray fervently for God to have his way with this wayward troupe.
Diane- 18, 34…amazing links. Thanks so much.
Diane,
I just read the article from your #34, and I would be skeptical of their point of view. I’ve read similar types of articles, and they most always come from a completely cessationist point of view and ridicules just about anything associated with those who still believe the gifts of the Spirit are available today.
I don’t know enough about Virgo or his ministry (or NFI for that matter) to be an advocate or a critic, but if you’ve got a network of that many churches then I’m sure there are going to be problems in some. The question would be are the issues pervasive across most of the churches associated, or are they isolated.
I think one issue I’d disagree with with NFI’s (and Virgo’s) approach is the whole issue of there being an Apostle who heads a group of ministries. If you guys will forgive another reference to Calvin, this was something he strongly advocated against in his writings. He saw the abuses of the Roman Catholic Church in how they had centralized control over all the churches, and there was no autonomy for local assemblies. He traced back in history that local congregations were under local control, and that it was local congregations that determined their pastor and elders. I think there is value in churches linking with other churches for support and fellowship, but when you bring in this whole idea of Apostolic leadership it only leads to problems.
Wow, Diane! Thanks for the link in #34. That article is “loaded.”
Many here have been reading and quoting from various articles about NAR over the past 4 years.
This particular article will be of great interest to many.
Interesting, interesting, interesting. Very rich, indeed. Thanks again!
Been There,
Are you familiar with NAR?
How about “Dominionism?”
Kris, sometime this week I happened to hear a newscast covering the robbery of a bank by someone with an authentic-looking ‘faux’ gun. The robber got what he wanted without having to use a real weapon but he was arrested and charged as a ‘real’ bank robber because the threat was real to those he threatened.
As I pondered the story, I also had the thought that holding up a bank with a toy revolver was similar to the incident where CJ held Larry hostage with a ‘faux’ threat against his son. It matters not if he was planning to actually do it; he made the threat and it was effectual. IMO, we (and the AoR) should call it what it was, a duress crime, meant to intimidate and coerce.
I’m somewhat familiar with NAR, but I’ve been out of Charismatic churches and affiliations for over 10 years and apparently it has become prominent during this time frame. I’m for familiar with Dominion type teachings. I think there is some truth in the idea that we are to be the salt of the earth and Christianity should be an influence on society and culture, but I also recognize how with just about any truth you can apply it in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons. I suspect this is a topic that could really morph into some lengthy discussions. Was SGM seen as being affiliated with either NAR or Dominion Theology?
“I just read the article from your #34, and I would be skeptical of their point of view. I’ve read similar types of articles, and they most always come from a completely cessationist point of view and ridicules just about anything associated with those who still believe the gifts of the Spirit are available today.”
Maybe yes, maybe no.:-) People can differ in how the gifts of the Holy Spirit are available today…and they are not cessationists.
“I don’t know enough about Virgo or his ministry (or NFI for that matter)”
Me neither–that’s why I am researching. The roots are important…imo. The links in my #18 comment present “both sides” so to speak in a timeline fashion-very exhaustive look at all that happened in the UK.
The problem with the cultural transformation angle of the NFI isn’t so much their connection with Dominionism (which they aren’t particularly influenced by), it’s more that they are attempting to do what Tim Keller does without the same level of cultural exegesis.
The links I posted are dismissed less easily.
Diane, I agree with the guy that wrote the article that the republican “hopefuls” are probably just using the NAR/dominionist folks.
Been There, google separate searches on NAR and dominionism (you’ll be reading for weeks). Google “NAR and Larry Tomczak” and NAR with CJ Mahaney, PDI, etc.
“Dominionism” could be a blog of it’s own. :wink:
AKS-
Yes, I agree–and the NAR folks are using/courting them for the credibility they so desparately need and have not had until recent years.
Been There # 41 wrote, “I suspect this is a topic that could really morph into some lengthy discussions.” Isn’t that exactly what Kris was trying to gently address (and head off) with this post?
Diane #34 — Thanks for the very intriguing read.
For a good number of posts on the whole NAR/dominionist/Rick Perry issue, take a walk over to two First Things-related blogs from the middle of August 2011: (a) Evangel, 14 August (http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/08/dominionismists/); (b) First Thoughts, 16 August (http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/08/16/dominionismists-the-new-birthers/) and (c) Evangel, 19 August (http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2011/08/another-run-at-the-dominionism-meme/). I’d also highlight Molly Worthen’s Church History article from 2008, which I found here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb050/is_2_77/ai_n29441678/pg_2/.
Sorry for the link-heavy post, but I find that the terms “Dominionist” and “Dominion Theology” get bantered around, and subsequently confused, by the media in all sorts of ways.
I think the NAR/Dominionist angle connects with SGM in only the smallest tangential way. So this is not the forum for a lengthy discussion.
Here’s the only connection that I can find…
Back in the 1990s, when PDI was more obviously Charismatic (and far less self-consciously Reformed), the “big names” that meant something to CJ and Larry T seemed to be those from NAR circles. I say that because if you look at the people whom Larry T involved in his quest for justice as he objected to CJ’s treatment of him, you will see some familiar names – Lou Engle, Mike Bickle, Steve Strang, and Rick Joyner, among others.
When I saw who it was that Larry T had turned to for help (apparently thinking these guys would strike fear in CJ’s heart in terms of peer pressure), I have to say that I kind of cringed on Larry’s behalf. Since Larry T’s ousting, CJ has gone on to lead SGM far, far away from ANY of those teachers, to the point where most SGMers would look down their noses at the idea of someone like Lou Engle providing any sort of accountability to the likes of CJ. Lou Engle would NEVER be considered “doctrinally sound” enough! Neither would Mike Bickle, and CERTAINLY neither would Rick Joyner. CJ’s Reformed Big Dog cronies like Al Mohler would probably sneer at the idea of Rick Joyner taking CJ to task for anything, so inferior is Rick Joyner’s theology in their minds.
SGM as it is today has virtually no connection to the world where those NAR guys have any influence or sway. I think it’s safe to say that some of CJ’s and Larry’s early ideas about their own authority and about rejecting the denominational status quo of the 1970s were probably in line with the NAR movement’s thinking. But otherwise, SGM has gone on to forge its own way, an amalagamation of Puritanism, Shepherding, and the “negative” pieces of Calvinism (all the sin, none of the Covenant Theology).
“CJ’s Reformed Big Dog cronies like Al Mohler would probably SNEER at the idea of Rick Joyner taking CJ to task for anything, so inferior is Rick Joyner’s theology in their minds.” Kris
I have actually never seen Al Mohler sneer at anything. Do you have some inside information? Mohler has always appeared quite polite if not a little distant in public. I understand he’s actually a pretty shy man.
Argo (#29)
I enjoyed discussing the issue with you. I always enjoy discussing Scripture because I find it causes me to have to dig deeper, and I seem to learn more. I read many of your other posts, and I remember thinking “now that’s someone I could really enjoy fellow-shipping with.” The fact that we may disagree on some theological issues doesn’t change that in the least. You seem to have a really good grasp of grace. I’m really sorry you (and others) had such negative experiences with what I would term as being some really messed up ways of looking at things.
Kris (#48)
Thanks for that perspective. Like I said previously I don’t know very much of the NAR, although I recognize a few of the names you mentioned. During my purely Charismatic days it seemed like there was a new “cutting edge” movement coming along every few years so I’m sure by the time I got caught up on exactly what the NAR was there would be something else that would be even “later and greater” to trump it :)