A Question, And Continuing Discussion…
December 11, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
I have a question. Perhaps there’s an answer out there already and I’ve just missed it. Perhaps some of you might know. My question is this:
What is going to happen with the end result of the efforts of the Ambassadors of Reconciliation?
We know they are conducting interviews and compiling some sort of report which will presumably contain their conclusions. What will be done with that report? Will Sovereign Grace Ministries make a full and unabridged version available for all who’d like to read it?
——————————-
We can also continue all general discussions in the comments for this post. I’ve been having an interesting time as moderator lately. Behind the scenes, I have received quite a lot of feedback about the different directions the conversations have gone. Some people have appreciated certain commenters’ efforts. Many others have expressed extreme frustration over the fact that I’m not moderating more. For every “Thank you for writing that!” comment that appears on the site, or for every “Welcome back, Such-and-Such, we’ve missed you,” there are probably a half-dozen messages that get sent to me saying, “PLEASE tell Such-and-Such that his contributions are a huge distraction.”
Like I said, moderating can get interesting. Generally, we don’t try to control or direct the discussions, unless it starts to feel like a commenter is monopolizing the conversation with his own special hobby horse, or unless (as disclosed in the “Read This Before Posting” tab) a commenter persists in trying to promote a view that we personally believe deviates too far from what we feel to be orthodox Christianity.
So, if there’s a particular commenter who bugs you, probably the best way to deal with that is to scroll past his or her posts.
At the same time, I would ask that we all try to police ourselves, perhaps a bit better than we have been. Especially if you have no firsthand experience with SGM, and/or if you find yourself posting multiple lengthy comments that don’t directly relate to SGM, that might indicate that what you’re wishing to discuss belongs somewhere else.
I hope this clarifies the moderating process.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
What bothers me is how SGM sweeps every little negative thing under the rug.
It wouldn’t bother me if my pastor or church was once affiliated with some wacky group or had embraced some wacky teaching as long as they had been up front about it and recanted if necessary.
CJ could have been bragging that he saved “the movement” from such wackiness if he deemed it as such.
I have an old forum discussion bookmarked entitled “Larry Tomczak collaborating with Rice Brooks.”
http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/archive/index.php/t-6707.html
AKS, Chris E, Ozymandias,
Thanks very much for the links!
Seneca 49
After reading your comments I decided to google the words “sneer” and “Al Mohler” and came up with more than one example. Apparently at least one other person besides Kris thinks Al Mohler might occasionally ‘sneer’.
Per Think Progress.org
Article by Lee Fang
14 Jun 2011
“Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-NY) has faced a tidal wave of criticism, pundit-driven psychoanalysis, and calls to resign over the revelation that he sent lewd pictures and messages to women over the Internet. Now, R. Albert Mohler, Jr., a preacher with the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky is adding his thoughts to the mix.
In a message last Saturday on his Twitter feed, Mohler condemned the news that Weiner planned to check himself into a treatment center. Mohler sneered that there is “no effective ‘treatment’ for sin.” Rather, Mohler suggested Weiner — a practicing Jew — should convert to Christianity for atonement..”
I guess we can say Kris’ opinion is just that. But, I agree with her that I thought the same thing when I saw the list of figures who were backing Larry. I don’t think they would be people CJ et al would respect these days, unfortunately.
Seneca,
Perhaps “sneer” isn’t quite the right, most precise word to describe the reaction that someone like Mohler might have if Mike Bickle or Rick Joyner would have reprimanded CJ and come to Larry T’s defense.
What I was trying to get at is that Bickle, Joyner, and those other Charismatic guys are simply NOT taken seriously by Reformed types such as Mohler. They are seen as theologically unsound. Even heretical. If unsound theology and heresy might not produce literal “sneers,” they’d nonetheless probably evoke some similar intellectual response.
And I just have to say, it’s weird to me that you would jump on “sneer” and leap to Mohler’s defense like that. Nobody is perfect. Why is it so impossible to imagine Dr. Mohler having a weak moment and “sneering” at someone whom he finds theologically inferior? Seems to me you might have put him on some sort of unrealistic pedestal?
In the you-heard-it-here-first type of posting…this is what I imagine Harvey will write in January after receiving the final report from AoR :
SGM Response to AoR Exoneration:
The SGM board is ever so thankful for the honest and diligent work of AoR. We are appreciative of their time and concern in pointing out our strengths and weaknesses, and helping us to grow in the Lord. Where they point to our strengths we give all glory to God and promise to continue to do God’s work in the people of His church as we have for over twenty years. Where they point out short comings or mistakes in anything SGM has done, we will seek to correct those points on which we agree. (We were already working to make changes in several of the areas AoR recommends change, anyway. Promise!)
In the other areas the AoR final report mentioned needing change, areas with which we disagree, we will earnestly seek to find a category for those. They were, for the most part, one time incidents and not a systemic problem so we ask for your prayers for clarity to emerge in this that we might begin to perceive why people might have felt offended despite our good intentions.
We give glory to God that CJ does not need to step down and has already apologized for those things he didn’t do, as well as those things he did do that he didn’t agree were sins (that little “blackmail” thing). So pray for us that we can be back to doing the business of the Church. CLC has much distance to cover in accommodating their new role in SGM and will certainly need all our help.
And if you have some time left when you are done with that, pray for me. There is even more going on that needs my attention now that CJ has been cleared for a return to ministry. NOTE: Please see “A note about online confessions” for an explanation of why I removed the original content of the AoR Final Report to SGM.
We thank you for your support.
In the Nick of Time 55
Thanks for the reminder that I need to be ready with a category to file away their future response. Would ‘circular file’ be too cynical to use? It kind of summarizes my expectations.
Been There said:
Hey, Kris, if this is an example of what you’re trying to head off at the pass, please feel free to delete from the thread, and possibly forward to Been There privately.
Years ago, probably about the same time PDI was getting off the ground, we were part of the beginning of a church that was Reformed/charismatic. The very first thing the pastors did was a lengthy study/teaching about the church — what it is and isn’t, how it came to be in Acts, how it morphed through the centuries — an excellent foundation on which to build.
Many of us expressed the same concerns you noted in the quote above. A very wise pastor answered, saying that whenever you open the door to unscripted participation in the church setting, realize that there will be abuses. There will be immature people, there will be crazy people. Strange bugs are attracted to light. He stressed that though those things would likely happen, that the leaders would do everything they could to assure things would be done reverently and in order, and everything would be tested with scripture. He often said that God prompts the prepared heart.
He was right. Most worship times were wonderful — appropriate, scriptural, and uplifting. But there were some off-the-wall things every now and then. A few strange bugs showed up. When a visiting pastor from Haiti cast demons out of a very prominent young man who had major problems, another young man came forward for the same treatment. I’m pretty sure the second one was a copycat action, but the first had lasting good consequences. Then, there was a lady who wanted to give a 15 minute praise report every meeting and talk about her sex life. Now, that was entertaining…they found ways to gently shut her up and love her into becoming more appropriate. A very weird neo-Nazi showed up one night hoping to recruit. Several of the weight-lifting type guys politely explained the gospel to him, and he left. Then there was a guy who literally foamed at the mouth — followed women around and said, “You’re a beautiful woman — where’s your husband?” His own wife was a few blocks away burning a hanging Santa in effigy with the Truth Tabernacle, which made worldwide news. Oh, yeah, those were interesting times.
The most wonderful example, though, was our Randy, an adult man — I’m not sure how to state it with political correctness, so I’ll come right out and say he was retarded. He couldn’t remember the pastors’ names — he just called them “This One” and “That One.” The teaching one night was about the Chinese church, I think, the way they conducted services, with the teacher seated, people praying, someone leading out in song as the spirit led. So, we were praying, and apparently the Spirit moved on Randy, who, from his seat somewhere near the rear of the auditorium, led out with “Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way.” And everyone quietly joined in. When it was over, a sweet woman said “Praise God” and everyone said “Amen.” And nobody got upset.
Anyway, my point is that — yes, there may be abuses. People need to understand that those things may happen, but that everything will be handled with scripture and loving good manners as far as possible. Maybe this is why so many churches have security these days?
Al Mohler is a deeply sarcastic person and is certainly capable of sneering. He does usually keep a handle on it when he’s in public.
It is human nature to turn those we disagree with into monsters. That is often done with Al Mohler and I do not think it is fair. However, he does have a human nature and his faults are real.
Al Mohler, CJ and co laugh, mock and sneer at those who disagree with them but most of it is done behind the scenes. In that sense they are no different than the world they live in. However, it is not hard to sift their public comments and listen to their critics to discover their specific outlook on certain thought,types and individuals. There is little room for true diversity in their outlook although they would be desperate to communicate otherwise, it has been a problem for them.And so they claim that they are different whilst uniting under flags of convenience, not for the gospel, but for more influence and power, and that is most easily identified by where they invest the money they have control over.
What differences there are could be related to cult like behaviour in that they flow through personalities, but that of course is part of the cult-ure they live in.So in some ways is not cultic behaviour. It is not hard to find celebrities sneering and flocking together at the odd awards ceremony.It is not cultic behaviour for the people in the seats to follow their leaders without too much question either. The vast majority of people in our cult-ure,including Christians, go about their daily business based on what their secular leaders say….. Al Mohler’s persona of shyness is useful in such a context in that it provides an excuse for him/them not to speak with every one who wants a word with them.This ‘shyness’ is more common than we would imagine amongst such leaders.(Needless to say some people see it as an endearing quality). These leaders avoid the masses in their churches and use complimentary methods to maintain distance.
I looked up the quote about Mohler “sneering.” It was the author’s opinion in a piece done on THINKPROGRESS, a very lefty website. http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/06/14/245344/focus-on-family-weiner/
This is what Mohler actually said. “Dear Congressman Weiner: There is no effective ‘treatment’ for sin. Only atonement, found only in Jesus Christ.”
You might call that a “sneer,” I would not.
Mohler DOES have his faults and sins. But it seems to be his biggest sin to those following the SGM imbroglio is his friendship with C.J. and his refusal to call him out in public. For that we accuse him of sneering at those whom he has theological disagreements. I just don’t think that’s right.
Nickname,
Thanks for your comment. I would have liked to have been there the night sweet Randy broke out in “Jingle Bells.”
Sopwith,
I wanted to say “Hi” on the last thread, and that it’s been good to “see” you again on the blogs.
I pray you and your family are doing well.
@intheNICKoftime
I think u where so right on with you post it was scary.
Seneca said,
What I said about how likely it is that Al Mohler would have “sneered” at the guys Larry T brought in when attempting to hold CJ accountable (Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner, Lou Engle) was strictly about the way that Mohler regards those men’s theology. My speculation about “sneering” has nothing to do with Mohler’s refusual to call out CJ. That’s a whole ‘nother subject.
It is a fact that Mohler and the other Reformed gurus look down upon the theology of Bickle, Joyner, and Engle, to the point where they would consider those men heretical. I am convinced that there would be a level of scorn present at the notion that someone like Bickle or Joyner – with his “unsound” theology” – would have attempted to take CJ – whom the Reformed Big Dogs believe to have “sound theology” – to task.
I really don’t get why that reality is so offensive. Those Reformed guys place a huge premium on their concept of “sound theology.” It’s why so many of them just cannot grasp that CJ Mahaney’s organization might be totally jacked up despite saying all the “theologically correct” words and having all the right theological statements published in their P.R. materials. If you’ve followed Mohler and the others at all over the years, you would have a good grasp of where they stand when it comes to the likes of the Kansas City Prophets, IHOP, the Elijah List folks, and such. They think those guys are nuts. Some Reformed types would go so far as to say that those who believe in that stuff, particularly prophecy as it is handled by Bickle and Joyner, are practically demonic.
Maybe they wouldn’t literally curl their lips in “sneers.” But there would be plenty of scorn heaped on the idea that theologically inferior Joyner could possibly have concerns about theologically superior CJ.
That’s just the way it is.
Re: 55, and 543 in the last thread:
And now you have it here- this is what I imagine CJ will write in January after receiving the final report from AoR :
I still have no category for what has taken place. Like the rest of the SGM Board, we stared in
disbelief at the Detwiler documents and blogs, immediately aware that our rule and reign would not end as planned. After the final report, I called to talk with the pastors to begin altering the message for the Sunday meeting and assembling the church that evening for the purpose of celebrating. It was
important to return home to CLC to serve the church with a message providing biblical perspective to the events. I was one of countless pastors whose plans were altered that week by visions of SGM returning to its former glory with me at the helm, steering the ship for the sake of the gospel.
On another subject.
Yesterday, our Sunday school/new member class talked about confessions and why we are Presbyterian things, and it got me thinking about church discipline or even membership at SGM, and why the membership covenants always seemed so sketchy there.
Now I understand why a church would do a membership covenant, to protect itself from lawsuits when it is legitimately following biblical church discipline. The problem with signing one at a SGM church, is that you are submitting to discipline to a nebulous, changing standard without any recourse. Even when you join a church and promise to uphold the teaching of the church, you really don’t know what those are,, or what the will be.
If I was brought under church discipline at my church, I could challenge it based upon scripture and the confessions specifically. There are unmovable (or hard to move) standards in a confessional church that prevent the pastors from changing the theology or beliefs based on their new thoughts, or desires, or new categories of thinking, or whatever. Whereas SGM changes there theology, often without even letting the congregation know, and it is never clear what exactly their theology is, at most churches, confessional in particular, there is a clear document, that is not easily changed, that states what the churches theology is. Being ordained as a pastor would present the same type of problem. When I agree, even as an Elder, to uphold the teaching of the church, I have a document, the Westminster, that I am bound to uphold, and anything i disagree with in it I have to take an exception to. My theology is known, and the teaching and counsel, and standard that I lead by is known. And if I am not following that, or tried to change it, there is a process for challenging me, and holding me accountable. I can be brought on charges, my rulings could be appealed up to Presbytery and even General Assembly. There is recourse for those unjustly accused, and for unjust rulings.
Now it is not always perfect, but it is trying to prevent individuals from teaching wrong theology, practices, or unjust discipline. and it normally works.
In SGM, there is no recourse for members, and even if there was, would it matter? If there is no standard of belief, or the standard is ever changing and not communicated, how can a pastor be held accountable for what they teach/counsel/how they lead. The standard is what they and the board decides it is at that time, and we have seen how that is a fluctuating standard, depending on the situation, and the person, and their relationship to CJ, not based on a document or confession that sets it.
Sorry for the long rambling post, just something I was thinking about, and realizing how even moving towards having an appeals process and system might be a good step, it really wont help that much without a standard that is communicated and not easily changed.
The other twin – TSA
I was reading on the Transportation Saftey Admin blog and there was a story about an elderly woman who was strip searched and had her back brace removed for some time.
The reason I post this story here is I was surprised to see how much SGM and the TSA are alike!
TSA contacted the passenger to apologize that she feels she had an unpleasant screening experience; however…
Then you scroll down and read the TSA excuses for why they did what they did (it amounts to because they can). Then start reading the comments to this article. They sound just like SGM comments! Things like “you people think we can believe a single word you say?” and “how is taking her cloths off and removing a back brace NOT a strip search?” AND “why has TSA and it’s leadership worked so hard to spin important information and thereby intentionally mislead the American people?”
So now I think of SGM and TSA as the same type of control organization!
:beat
I think what Seneca is trying to say is don’t say Al Mohler sneered at something if you didn’t witness it.
We are all capable of sneering, and of course so is Al. I love this blog in a lot of ways, but the posters constantly assign motives to other people as if it is fact, and that is just plain wrong. Now, if you say “I can imagine Al sneering ” or “perhaps Al is sneering” that is acceptable.
Just read original quote by Kris…she did use the word “probably”.
sorry about that!
intheNick # 55, excellent post! Unfortunately, it will have to be deleted soon in keeping with SGM customs.
Again…SGM (kinda) in the news.
This quote from a doctor commenting on the Penn State problems.
This is the same thing I notice when I try to discuss the SGM issues at caregroup. Someone will always say “what about all the good he has done?” But that at least acknowledges that he might have done some wrong. Even worse is when people say they prefer to just ignore the gossip and slander of the blogs (and ignore all the problems in SGM and issues with CJ and Harvey).
Every time things look like they are working towards a just end someone, like the doctor mentions above, pokes their head up and makes me wonder again if anything will ever change or are we forever stuck with the old SGM and the sheeple with their heads buried in the sand.
InTheNick #70
A thoughtful response might be to say, “What good HAS he done?” and watch people flounder around for answers.
Each time you get a general, vague answer, ask what they specifically mean, or ask for specific examples.
People may get frustrated and direct that at you, but I personally don’t mind taking it to help them learn to be more thoughtful and deep.
I find people fling around these phrases-all the good he has done, a gospel moment, I applied the gospel, etc. But what do they really mean? I have started to ask people, and find most don’t even know what they mean-it just sounds good! If I get a nonsense SGMtalk answer, I smile and say, “I just don’t follow what you are saying. Can you dumb it down for me? I would really love to know what you are trying to communicate.”
If I get a thoughtful answer that makes sense, I can encourage that person to use everyday words, not these catchphrases, because what they just said was really great, but I would have missed it if I hadn’t asked them to explain.
Jewel said in previous thread:
I just looked and my discussion with Josh Harris is still up there.
http://www.joshharris.com/2011/06/which_cover_for_boy_meets_girl.php#comments-content
You have to repeatedly click on newer comments to see this discussion. I didn’t check when you posted so not sure if it was ever deleted or you just didn’t see it. I guess I should have “believed the best” as SGM teaches members to do. ;-)
http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/TrueWorkings.html
If I were a pastor I would have the church read this appendix from War on the Saints to help with discernment when a stirring from the Holy Spirit feels wrong. Sometimes something has crept in unaware. And if we don’t think that the devil can touch a Christian with brut force like a poster mentioned earlier here then we have no choice but to believe we have been knocked over by God. It’s quite disconcerting for someone who is being shaken by an unseen force to be told to just stop it when they can’t. The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. That is, when its the Holy Spirit Who is at work.
QE2 regarding your #71:
That is awesome advice! I am so glad you posted that. Thanks.
Kindred, (#62)
HowDee!
yes… (We are well!)
…he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
I have with my family, been blessed on both accounts.
I have been secure, because there is hope; yes!
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith…
(I have dug about me, and I have taken my rest in safety
and there is none to make me afraid.)
Thank-you! (What a blessing you have been to so many…)
For you Kindred, (a Christmas prayer): “Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.”
and
“That there be enough flour and oil for pancakes this day, for you and your family… That there is enough flour and oil for pancakes on the morrow,
and the next day . . .
and the next day after dat!
and the next day after dat too!
in perpetual blessing…
Until our Lord’s faithful return!
*
Amaz’in grace, howz sweet da sound, dat sav’d a wrench likz me…
hum-hum, hum -hum, hum, hum,hum, hum…
Oh! I likz da sound of it!
Sopy ;~)
Steve240: That is odd, there it is now. When I mentioned about this a couple days ago, I had clicked on the newer post links because that’s how I was able to see your 1st post and noticed nothing else after that like I had earlier seen. Now I can see Josh’s response in addition to other posts. Looks like mine was never approved to be published.
Thank you, kind Sopwith. :)
Your prayer was just what I needed today.
intheNickoftime #71 …
You can tell them that Adolf Hitler actually pulled Germany out of their great depression starting in 1933. He reduced unemployment to practically zero and built Germany in to an incredible world power.
Sowhatthatheblamedthejewishpeopleforcausinghyperinflation,sohekilledtheminconcentrationcamps …orthathestartedWWII … minor points to the great that he did!
I’m sorry I always jump in off-topic. It just takes me awhile to drum up the wherewithall to post.
Regarding not reporting issues to police – I think at that time one of our greatest fears was the movement being investigated by police and the very intense use of spanking as a parenting technique would be investigated and we would all lose our children.
1. To fear that suggested the parenting approach was questionable and we all knew it.
2. Again, I think the national homeschool movement at that time instilled a lot of fear in people of the government confiscating their children for being Christians. At that time, children in the country were being removed from their homes for homeschooling. The police were the enemy at that time. For that reason, churches handled things in house.
One parent behaving badly jeopardized all of the parents in the church.
To answer Kris’ original question, I think that Nickof time nailed it – they will come out with something like what he wrote. This only reason AoR was hired was to create the perception that they are doing something. SGM has ALWAYS been about perception and not reality.
Unfortunately, what will happen is they will make some PERCEIVED changes and ignore the rest. What ever it takes to keep the members tithing.
Ellie,
Pattij553 at hotmail
Love to hear from you!
Re: #81
“Unfortunately, what will happen is they will make some PERCEIVED changes and ignore the rest. What ever it takes to keep the members tithing.”
Well, Leo, here’s the good news- God is on the move!
All that has happened, all that has been exposed, is happening now by God’s hand. They will most likely try that tactic. But that won’t be the end of it.
It’s like the Exodus story. Pick any plague, and imagine Pharoah’s response. Water into blood? No problem, my guys can do this too. End of story.
The next week, Pharoah is saying, shoot, here we go again. After we take care of these frogs, things can go back to normal.
A few plagues later, it was, Dang. Now we have to drag off all the dead livestock. After that, it will just like it was before.
And on it goes. God doesn’t stop until it’s over. And I think that when Pharoah’s army does not return because they are lying at the bottom of the sea, he’s still standing there, scratching his head wondering how things ended up the way they did.
So if we look at the outcome of one event, we can become discouraged. For example, I did feel bummed out when the first review-those 3 friends of CJ’s who had no ties to SGM said they saw no problems and CJ was swell. We were all so hopeful! But that was just God setting the stage for the next event. Be encouraged! God doesn’t stop until he achieves what he sets out to accomplish.
(And I really don’t know the specifics on what that means-I just know that things will NOT be going back to the way they were)
intheNickoftime #55
You are spot on. DH should just copy and paste for the AoR update.
Sidebar:
Good fruit coming out of the ashes of SGM
http://www.christcentralva.com/Christ_Central_Church/Church_Meeting_Videos.html
Group of Christ followers that left Kingsway starting Christ Centered Congregationally led Church!!
Praise God!!!
“Donny Boy” aka DPV — didn’t know if you got my response to our duet development. Are you all right out there in cyber space? I am rethinking — your friend – Irv aka Irvy boy!
QE2 (#83)hit the nail on the head! God is right smack dab in the middle of this thing and the end result will be precisely what He is has planned it to be. Those who refuse to admit and repent from their wrongs (sins) will be judged by Him and Him alone. There will be a great individual harvest of exactly what each of them have sewn. Repentance would have been so much easier.
Kriis,
re: your post #64
I am still learning the who’s who of all of this. I’ve been out of SGM for quite some time.
I had never heard of Mohler before this blog. But I am familiar somewhat with Bickle, Engle, Elijah List. Not personally involved with any of that but my understanding is that a very large number of people from North Coast. Church in Cleveland eventually ended up being heavily involved with IHOP, et al.
Is this coincidental? Or are there common threads between Bickle, Engle, etc. That would cause so many from one group to break off and, in my opinion, almost fanatically become involved with IHOP etc?
There is such an emphasis on end times and shutting yourself up to pray that it seems many end up completely isolated from all unbelievers. And certainly unrelateable if nothing else.
I have family members that I am concerned about and would love to learn more. If you don’t want to ‘go there’ in this thread feel free to shoot me N email. I just see some red flags…but have wondered if it’s just me being jaded post-SGM.
Liberty- based on people we know who are involved, who may or may not represent the top guys well-
-the common thread is being on a superior higher level, being on the cutting edge of what God is doing.
With the end time prophetic movement they are at the forefront of the “now word”, and they are doing God’s will better than all of us mundane regular people- in this case their form of prayer which may involve a great deal of declaring and claiming and speaking into being, instead of old fashioned humble petitioning.
With SGM, they do it right, better than any church group for 2000 years.
Everybody wants to be superior it seems like. Nobody wants to be in an average dorky church with messed up people making mistakes and being just ordinary and average. I’m really happy personally to be a normal screw up in a church full of average non spectacular people trying to love the Lord and serve him.
If you don’t get the attitude out of SGM members, they’ll end up either in another abusive church or another superior cutting edge movement.
I don’t think you are jaded, just realistic.
Nickname (#57)
Thanks for that insight. It seems to be a very delicate balancing act as to know how much freedom to allow with regards to the gifts of the Spirit. One of the things I’ve heard that I like is having elders and appointed people around the assembly that people can go to if they feel they have something to share, and then these people can determine whether or not it is something that can be brought to the pastor in the service. This way on top of having someone discern what is being said you can also ensure that it doesn’t interrupt the flow of the service. I’m not sure there is a one correct right way, and I guess each church has to feel around for what works best for them.
Liberty 88 Lou Engle was sent out by CLC, with Che Ahn to Pasadena, CA in the early years of PDI (SGM). They broke off from PDI around the time Larry left and continued their relationships with each other, though not in the same ministries. So, if you see a connection with the Ohio church, those relationships might be connected in some way back into the 80’s. Che, Lou and Larry retained a higher percentage of charismatic elements than CJ and his pastoral team.
5YearsPDI (#89)
That’s a good summation. I was involved with groups where we thought we were on the “cutting edge” of what God is doing and saying today. But even in my fundamentalist days I was drawn to what was advertised as something superior to all the rest. It felt good to be a part of something that made me feel like I was set apart and different (one notch above) all the other Christians. Looking back this set me up to get entangled with churches that were abusive and unhealthy. The leaders of these kinds of churches tend to take advantage of this status of being superior by elevating themselves to a position of not being able to be questioned. I mean after all they are leading you in a movement that is better than you can get anywhere else so for that reason alone should just be grateful and be quiet. So if you want to keep your place in this superior church then the price you have to pay is to constantly try to maintain their approval. This sets you up for the whole shepherding type of leadership, and by the time you realize what you’ve gotten into it’s too late.
And you are so right that if you don’t get this attitude dealt with you’ll just wander into another church where you end up repeating the same cycle. I know I did.
Diego, #85 — thanks for posting the links to Christ Central videos. It was refreshing to see people speaking of faith with freedom and fervor.
I don’t really need to post when Been There has my exact thoughts.
The root of it all was CJ thinking he was the original Christian and he was inventing the first authentic church since the Bible with the assumption that all other churches were failing. An arrogant disregard for church history and wisdom and experience. God didn’t move until CJ showed up?
He built his following by teaching Christian teens that their pastors were wrong and he was right. His divisiveness wreaked havoc throughout the region.
What will SGM do with the reports ?
Spin it into the beginning of a CJ come back tour :wink:
Someone compared him ( as in the CJ god ) the Pharaoh which I believe to be pretty close. I would be scared to death if I were an SGM pastor. They worship CJ and worship SGM and worship their church and worship their humblness. Can you all imagine being on Gods bad side 8O
The real sad part in all this is they are missing out on the best part of being a christian. Worshipping God :clap
Liberty asked,
“just saying” said,
5years and Persona did a great job of answering Liberty’s question. But it strikes me that this theme of spiritual superiority – or, actually, maybe it’s spiritual originality? – is woven throughout so much of what has gone on in the church over the past 30 years.
In SGM’s case, I don’t even think CJ should receive all the blame. As much as Larry T was victimized during his ouster, it seemed pretty clear throughout his Clap Your Hands book that he saw himself as taking important steps to “restore the true New Testament church.” I don’t have time right now to find my copy of Clap Your Hands and type out some quotes, but one of the main themes of that book was that “regular” churches are dead and dry…and PDI was on the frontlines of figuring out how to do it right.
It also seemed pretty obvious throughout the book that Larry saw himself – and not CJ – as the driving force, the real top banana.
What’s interesting is that this theme did not originate with Larry T, either…and it’s certainly not confined to PDI/SGM. I’d even say that it’s not confined to churches. I think it was a generational issue that affected all aspects of life that the baby boomers experienced as they aged. There was this distinct sense that so many in that generation saw themselves as pioneers…as fixing their parents’ mistakes…as going back to nature…and in the case of those who came to faith in Jesus during that time, as fixing what was wrong with the church and going back to the New Testament glory days.
It’s interesting to note that CJ has continued throughout his career to emphasize and glorify youth, too. One of the reasons he turned over the reins of CLC to Josh Harris was because he believed that it was better to keep young people at the helm. This notion – that leaders need to be young – has made its way throughout much the SGM organization when fresh-faced PC grads have been installed as “senior” pastors. (Somehow, it’s like CJ actually imbibed the belief that it’s better not to trust “anyone over 30.” :D )
So I think we can’t underestimate just how much of CJ’s (and consequently SGM’s) arrogance flows out of the arrogance of an entire generation who believed in an almost funny way that they were the first ever to face the milestones of life – the first ever to be called upon to serve their country in the military…the first ever to really figure out sex…the first ever to become parents (does anybody remember those stupid “Baby On Board!” signs that yuppy baby boomers put on their cars once they had kids? like their babies were so much more precious than the rest of humanity that if we only knew a car contained a baby, we’d somehow drive more safely?)…and the first ever to come to genuine faith in Jesus.
So it makes sense, when we look at the churches that were started by baby boomers, that so much of what permeates the various movements is, “We are finally getting it right!”
Something else that is sort of related to my #96 –
I’ve noticed that many (if not most) within the movement toward more conservative parenting (homeschooling, courtship, and especially the more extreme ideas about parental authority and patriarchy) see themselves as originators, the ones who are starting and establishing new patriarchal lines.
The level of loyalty that these parents demand from their kids – including their adult kids – was something that they themselves never offered to their own parents.
Especially now, after all of CJ’s sons-in-law made rather dramatic life changes in the wake of CJ’s “season of reflection,” it’s kind of obvious that the Mahaney clan functions as a single family unit. They all vacation together, and there’s the clear sense that CJ is the patriarchal leader of them all (even though you’d think that with what SGM has always taught about wifely submission, the Mahaney daughters would have followed their husbands and their husbands’ families).
But does anyone remember CJ and Carolyn and their kids vacationing every year with Carolyn’s parents? Were CJ’s parents such a dominant force in their family’s life? Did Carolyn’s dad pave the way for CJ to start and build his career? If Carolyn’s dad were to be called on the carpet, would that have meant that CJ needed to jump ship and demonstrate his loyalty?
It’s pretty comical to think of how large and in charge CJ is over his adult kids…when his and Carolyn’s own parents never seemed to have much input or control over CJ’s and Carolyn’s lives when they were younger adults.
Again, I think there’s a baby boomer generational thing going on there. Parents are to be ditched and left in the dust as “inauthentic”…until you yourself become a parent, and then everything still remains all about you, even long after your kids grow up.
Kris, thank you so much for post #96!
It certainly doesn’t apply to each and every person in that generation, but boy, it does seem to be a fairly accurate representation of them as a group.
I think Kris nailed it with her comments on the Baby Boomer generation. It seems CJ has taken part of the boomer attitude and infused it with the shepparding movement and added a new level of arrogance to it – the whole “we’re the first generation to get it right!”.
No wonder they don’t want the successive generations to step out of line one bit – they don’t want them to revolt against what they have done. Generation X (I am guessing that most of us that post are Gen X) have a deep distrust of the boomer generation (and with VERY good reason, I might add!). Gen X has so more respect for the “greatest generation” that fought WWII than the boomers.
Kris – great thought on the psychology behind what make ceej the pope. No wonder he doesn’t like psychology – to easy to figure out what he is really doing.
Ha, no Leo, I am not post Gen Xer. I’s an Xer.
From what I can tell, we’re a fairly even mix.