On “Gossip”…and Pastor CJ?
January 16, 2012 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
I know the non-linear nature of the discussions here bugs some people. We typically don’t stick with the topic of the original post for very long, and sometimes things can go very far afield. On rare occasions, I will feel the need to step in and request that we drop a particular subject or take the conversation in another direction.
It’s not always pretty. It’s not tidy. And, like I said, it’s not linear.
But I find what goes on in the “Comments” to almost always be WAY more interesting than anything I write for posts.
Here are some thought-provoking reader contributions from the past few days:
“intheNICKoftime” said,
You know the old saying that if you tell yourself something enough you come to believe it. Those SGM guys don’t just use the gossip and slander thing as a weapon to silence their opponents. Those guys actually believe it!
That’s why they keep coming back to it. They actually believe the gossip and slander has created this problem, and not that the problem is what generates gossip and slander.
I am not saying it is right…or even that they are playing with a full deck. A schizophrenic hears real voices in his head. WE know they aren’t there but the schizophrenic doesn’t. To him it seems real. The same is true for the SGM guys. Just because WE know that CJ did terrible things which caused lots of damaged people who talk about it, gossip if you will, that doesn’t mean the SGM guys see it that way. They, like the schizophrenic, actually believe it is the gossiping and the complaints that don’t come through channels that are the basis of all the problems. (Nor do they see that THEY are the reason there are no channels. They didn’t make any channels for complaints, accidently or purposefully.)
So if you really want to understand SGM thinking, and why they won’t listen to “reason”, you need to understand they actually believe in that gossip stuff…down to their very core! If you wonder why they keep hammering it and keep throwing that up as the source of the problems, they really really believe it is the real cause. They really hear those voices in their heads!
Then “the leftovers” responded with this:
That was my observation as well while at Bristol SGM. I think the pastors really believed that when they told people who they should avoid, spread around details of people’s private lives, openly expressed their opinion about congregants etc, they thought they were just carrying out their God-given duty BUT, if anybody in the congregation talked about them: GOSSIP, SLANDER, BITTER and so on.
It created such an environment of intense fear and oppression.
I heard that quite a lot of the members still going there read here but I am certain not one of them has dared to confront the pastors about stuff on here. They know the deal: speak up and you’re written off for good.
“Former CLCer” added,
The gossip and slander thing is crazy. For example, in the church I attended up until last year, the pastor was the main offender. Telling him your business was like broadcasting it online. One guy was in drug rehab and everyone in the church knew it, though they weren’t supposed to. He even told certain people my age!? But the second I questioned him or called him on this, I was gone.
“the leftovers” added,
Similar thing happened at Bristol Grace church but it was over adultery. I can’t believe the person involved could possibly have wanted the entire congregation to know.
Someone else I knew while there (who has also moved on)shared some very personal family stuff with the pastor. They found out that had travelled too.
You would think that a pastor would be so aware of the enormous responsibility involved with their calling (job) and that they cannot tell anybody things shared in confidence.
I felt that the lack of confidentiality was a reflection of how superior they felt to the rest of the congregation. And I don’t think they will change because people were too afraid to confront them.
And then “Muckraker” said,
FormerCLC and Leftovers: The one taboo topic never spread by gossip was child sex abuse. THAT was usually hushed up! Why is that?
—————————-
On another topic, “Oswald” wrote,
From ‘somewhereintime’ over at Refuge – “Unsubstantiated rumor from reliable source. CJ to start his own SGM church. Will leave SGM leadership.
Anyone else hear this?”
I responded with this:
Oswald,
That rumor dovetails very well with what CJ himself said back in November about his supposed area of giftedness:
I think I have neglected my call to preach. I think I have accepted a role that is more managerial and quite obviously I am not a manager. And I also think I am a pastor. That is what I think I am. I’m a pastor. And over the last 8 years I have become detached from serving a particular local church. I hope that changes soon. It is my intention to change that soon.
—————————-
What do y’all think? Will we be introduced anew to “Pastor CJ” in the near future?
© 2012, Kris. All rights reserved.
Just for the record, here’s an observation about SGM’s re-defining of the nature of “gossip” and “slander”:
“What do y’all think? Will we be introduced anew to “Pastor CJ” in the near future?”
Hum. What are the requirements to speak at T4G and the Gospel Coalition Conferences and other neoCalvinist Conferences? Figure that out and you have the answer.
Kris – #1 pretty much sums it up, anything that could even be remotely seen as though of as negative about sgm or the pastors is gossip. “The reputation of the church” is one of the biggest issues in the sgm leadership’s heads. Unfortunately most people don’t figure it out until they want out of the cult (or high-demand group, if you like). I have posted this before, but my experience when I left showed me the great lengths that they will go to try and protect sgm’s reputation. I told them I was never coming back and that they were a cult (yep, I really told one of the pastors that they were a cult) that’s when the threatening and screaming started. I was told that if I told anyone that I thought they were a cult that they would come after me for libel and slander. Yep, they threatened legal action against me. He then told me that they would “find out” where I was going to church and call the pastors to tell them about me and my “spirit of rebellion”. It just goes to show the lengths that SGM will go to to “protect” their reputation – basically threaten anyone that dare disagree with them.
The other side of the whole gossip piece is that anything that really is gossip that makes sgm look good is OK in their eyes, to the point to spreading lies about people who have left the church or questioned the leadership actions.
I am guessing CJ stays in the DC area so he can prepare a place for all those who want to continue to follow his lead, without moving or at least, without moving far (commuting is insane in the area). They may finally relocate Solid Rock to Bowie, or thereabouts. Some members of the Ricucci family already live near there and that is the where Loftness wanted to relocate Solid Rock several years ago. Loftness was the executive pastor for CJ years back so he already has job experience, if he is willing to step down as senior pastor. But, who says no to CJ?
In regard to CJ taking up the mantle of leadership of SGM, he never stopped doing that behind-the-scenes in the first place and, I am certain he will be officially restored to continue leading in a huge capacity, whether or not they change his title. My guess is he is working with lawyers to ensure he has increased ‘protection’ from further entanglements with disgruntled members. Changing his title might effectively do that. Now all he and Dave need to decide is how they will spin the negative AOR comments into something that looks and sounds humble. But then, that has always been one of their strong points as a team.
I don’t see CJ planting a new church and working his butt off 24/7 to get it up and running and prospering. That is what Benny Phillips is doing down there in Florida. Metro, unable to support all the pastors, (thanks to SGM heavyhanded training and favoritism), cuts Benny loose to go start his own church, completely on his own. He does get to take the SGM brand with him but that’t it…no money and no people. Benny has done it a couple of times before. It is sad to see a man of that age starting on his own but he has a great large extended family to help carry the load.
CJ just doesn’t strike me as the hard work kind of guy. He’s the up front type with the smile and the good words and the one that gets the approbation but I just don’t see him as the hard worker that starts a new church. Caring for people and being interested in their problems is yucky work. CJ tries to avoid that.
I also don’t see him taking a #2 spot at an already existing church. CJ has never been second fiddle to anyone, anywhere. So going with a church as one of the pastors is probably not an option.
So where could CJ go and get the adoration and adulation to which he has become accustomed? Could SGM dump an existing sr. pastor and install CJ in their place. Probably not, that would be a tough fit, even with the brutality SGM has used in the past. There would be no winners there.
How about New Covenant Church in Arnold, Maryland? The one sil turned down. They are still looking for a sr pastor. They could get the big man himself AND join SGM all in one fell swoop! Check Mate! Then he would be close enough to be the executive official pastor for SGM at the same time. (Remember CJ will never walk away from his legacy. Never. Never. Never.) And there is no one on the board with the courage to say to him, “Time for you to leave, Grasshopper.”
But how long could that work when SGM moves to Cornerstone Church in Knoxville, Tn.? THAT would be too long for a commute. Arnold, Md. to Knoxville, Tn. Won’t work.
Oh, yea. When you think about changes you HAVE to understand that the SGM/CLC set up is no longer comfortable for the SGM folks. Those mean, misguided pastors at CLC that have known and worked with CJ for a couple of decades are no longer looking the other way and ignoring CJ’s non-serious, non-disqualifying, non-systemic sins and shortcomings. So SGM will feel a strong need to move once they work out the details of where to go after they have denied any wrong doing or sinful behavior from the AoR reports of January and March 2012. SGM will sell their office space back to CLC, at a discount because it really is a fire sale, but SGM will be able to take the nearly million bucks and buy a great place down in Tennessee. The cost of living is so much cheaper down there that SGM should be able to get almost as good a set up at half the price.
Harvey won’t have to worry about it because he will be back at his old church as a sheep because AoR will have shown him to be the con man that he appears to be. And I doubt Mellinger would give him HIS spot to allow Harvey to come back. Without CJ to back him up, (remember CJ moved to Arnold, Md to be a regular sr pastor) Harvey will be out of a job. Not just fired for what he has done to innocent people in the past, but after AoR points out the abuse SGM has perpetuated because they have no polity that says they can’t, the SGM polity will be re-written and there wont be a place for a sheister, huckster, duplicitous, de-gifting, spinmaster in the organization. That job description will be eliminated. And the need for Dave Harvey will likewise be eliminated.
Now the only questions to be answered is where the three sons in law will wind up. Any ideas there?
Anyone see cj pushing the boy wonder out of clc and taking it back? I can’t see mr. egomaniac wanted to take over a smaller sgm church. I could see a hostile takeover of CLC happening – CLC has already made moves to protect the current leadership and try to get them so far entrenched that ceej can’t push them out.
The tendency fo the Professional ecclesiastics to “circle the wagons” and counter attack is not unique to the SGM crowd. It’s a common tactic known throughout the species. It’s a deep seated paranoia of “them against us” that permeats their thinking. It goes along with the “gift from God” mentality. Actually, a pastor IS a gift from God IF he truly is a pastor and not an imposter and was called of God into that service. By the way, it’s service and not full-time “MINUSTRAY”. The way God has it organized we are all in the full-time ministry or service. After all, haven’t we given our lives to Him? Back to the subject, A pastor will invariably consider any and all crisicism, whether constructive or not, to be a direct attack on his person. The same criticism from a fellow ecclesiastic would be received and considered, but not from what they deem a “lay person”.
This is part, and only a small part, of the problem with the current non-Biblical structure of what we now mistakenly call the church. It’s not just a problem with a few icolated “pastors” in an oprganization called SGM. It’s a church-wide problem. It’s the professionals (the ones who call themselves clergy) against the laity. (Notice it’s the professional who call them Laity, not the people themselves.) The professionals have created this chasm between the two groups in an effort to portray themselves as being in an elevated position in the Body of Christ. Most of them consider themselves a standing between God and the congregation, thereby placing themselves in the very position that Only Jesus Christ is worthy to occupy. The Lord intended that we (His Church) all stand together on one plane or level and look to Him only. The false notion of clergy and laity has to go before the church can return to it’s original structural and organic beginnings.
:beat
Leo –
If the men of SGM had had their hearts fixed more intently on God and His glory than on the name of SGM and their own welfare they might not be where they are today.
Regarding your story – SGM seems to be very into the whole “we will come after you and/or we will expose you or your child.” This was their “biblical” response to you as well? I wonder how many people they silenced with this threat. The things men do in darkness… sadly comes to mind.
Brent has a new post. This time he is calling out the Master of Spin – Dave Harvey.
Harvey defined the three areas that the “Committee of 3” could charge against CJ, but said that the independent lawyer, Bryce Thomas, defined them.
Harvey is a liar! … Is that slander??? Read it yourselves…
Dave must also be openly rebuked (1 Tim 5:20) for his on-going and consistent deceit. After C.J. no one has done more to destroy people’s confidence in Sovereign Grace Ministries. Here is another recent example from his blog post, “What are we doing about the allegations against C.J.?” on November 28, 2011. He wrote the following regarding the questions assigned to each of the review panels.
“Three committees have been formed, each one responsible for answering one key question established by the independent facilitator [Bryce Thomas]. The first committee will answer the question: Was Larry Tomczak’s departure from Sovereign Grace Ministries handled properly? The second committee will answer the question: Did C.J. Mahaney wrongly influence the dismissal of Brent Detwiler from his church in Mooresville, NC? The third committee will answer the question: Was C.J. Mahaney’s participation in fellowship in 2003 and 2004, including the giving and receiving of correction, in keeping with the teaching of Scripture?” (Dave Harvey, “What are we doing about the allegations against C.J.,” blog post on Nov 28, 2011).
These three questions “established by the independent facilitator” did not begin to address my allegations against C.J. I immediately protested (see “SGM Panels Are of Little Worth in Determining C.J.’s Fitness for Ministry” on November 28, 2011 at BrentDetwiler.com). This approach to investigating my charges was a sham. But the blame for contriving such narrow questions was attributed to the work of the independent facilitator and trial lawyer, Bryce Thomas.
Dave said each “key question” was “established” by Bryce. That was pure spin intended to provide cover for the SGM Board. Bryce had nothing to do with the nature of the questions. They were assigned to him. Nevertheless, Dave credited him for the three questions and clearly conveyed they originated with him. Bryce was made to look like the one responsible for limiting the scope of the investigation. I figured Dave was up to his old shenanigans.”
Go to brentdetwiler.com to read what Thomas said to Brent.
Don’t trust the current SGM leadership.
Bridget – you will find A LOT of people that left got the same reaction I did. It wasn’t limited to a one off experience, it was par for the course for the way they do things. They have called other churches to tell them that former members where under “church discipline” and there are posts about that somewhere on this blog. I am sure they are lots of people that haven’t spoken up out of fear. Hopefully now with SGM’s deeds being exposed for all to see those folks will not fear sharing their experiences and stories.
Gossip and slander are like the Kryptonite, the secret weapon the leadership uses against their own people.
“The most common way people give up their power is to think that they don’t have any” Alice Walker~~
That’s the key, all of a sudden, the average seat warmer doesn’t believe the kryptonite will take away their strength, they get to opine freely and Dave Harvey might need to go back to school to learn how to be something else because he has proven himself unfit to pastor, lead, or council anyone.
Sometimes there is a stage set by the Pastors whereas we are supposed to be talking about the power of the Lord but inevitably SGM attendees end up talking about the actual “power” of the Pastors.
An example: Once there was an altar call for any one called to the mission field to come forward for prayer. (of course it was only young people that went forward since adults are trained to only go on church plants as a mission field) All of the young people lined up to “hear from God.” I had a really bad feeling about what was to come as I watched in horror as my friends, who had children up there, leaned forward in anticipation of what could be life changing prophesy.
The Pastor then told these kids that several, four to be exact, would be martyred in their pursuit of God’s call in the mission field. I watched parents break into tears and one told me right then and there that they knew it would be their daughter.
We all gossiped that day for sure. Although we do make a choice to sin there does seem to be an endless stream from the pulpit of ungodliness that produces folks to talk behind closed doors. All we could think about was those poor kids who just wanted to serve the Lord outside the church. Yes, talking about the whole experience was more gossip then the Pastors knew what to do with. True story.
“An axe needs to be laid to the root.” – Brent Detwiler
Gee, Brent – the axe is already being laid to the root – that’s why you’re on the outside looking in. – Fried Fish
Absolutely astounds me how Brent keeps trying to tell the SGM pastors and leadership what they MUST do… for the sake of the :trainwreck – err, Movement.
After looking again at the statements CJ made about how he believes now that his true identity is that of a pastor, I’ve found myself wondering where this self-assessment is coming from.
Those of you who have been around CJ and CLC, does this ring true to you? Does CJ seem like someone whose real calling is pastoring? How much interaction has he had over the years with people? How much does he get into all the nitty gritty people stuff that a pastor typically deals with?
How would he feel about having the responsibility for coming up with original sermons week after week, rather than regurgitating the same handful from his files?
I find this puzzling, actually, that CJ says he sees himself in these terms. I don’t know the man – have never met him – but from everything I’ve ever heard, the life (and salary) of the celebrity special speaker/denominational bigwig has appeared to suit him far better than the life of an ordinary pastor.
Here’s an update about C.J.’s daughters and sons-in-law. Last night at the CHBC members meeting, the congregation voted Kristin Chesemore and Janelle Bradshaw and their respective husbands into membership.
The Greek work for pastor is “poimen”, literally meaning shepherd. The Greek word for elder is “presbyteros” literally meaning an older man or an “elder”; a position of leadership or oversight by one with wisdom and maturity; gentleness is also included on the list of qualifications.
In SGM, the role of pastor focuses heavily on only the “leadership” and “oversight” aspects of this equation. They recruit guys with temperaments and “gifting” that can handle overlooking “the sheep” and then leading in a firm way (when “needed”) hence the harshness toward counselees and each other, as often testified to on this and other blogs.
SGM does NOT appear to value the gentle, protecting guidance of a real shepherd in their pastors–one who protects his flock with his life, one who nurtures and dwells with his flock in trials. If a man is qualified in every other way to be a pastor and yet is gentle-hearted, then SGM leadership will reject his “calling” or never “court” him for pastoral leadership in the first place.
I think SGM has changed the meaning of the word and concept of “pastor” (in their own minds, at least). In the biblical definition, I do not see CJ as a gentle-heart, long-suffering shepherd of the messy sheep in the trenches–He likes to lead (period). And that’s not enough to be honored with the calling of a pastor IMHO!
After reading post @15, would anyone be surprized to find CJ pastoring a baptist church?
CHBC Member @15 –
While I thank you for this bit of information, I find that it leaves me with a knot in the pit of my stomach!! It is disturbing to me, on so many levels, that the Mahaneys and their families are all moving forward with their lives while over at SGM many of the people and churches are STILL WAITING on some news from AoR and the three commitees until they decide what to do. CJ Mahaney clearly does not care about anyone but himself and his family. Almost this entire family walked away from SGM where CJ was “the” leader and left a wreck of broken people and churches behind. I cannot rejoice at this news. Apparently the members at CHBC can rejoice??
I’m curious, did CJ apply for membership?? Please tell me he asked and was refused.
Bridget #17–
8O :spin :spin :spin
But–Baptists have deacons. Deacons have a real say in the doings of the church. Also, Baptists have church business meetings where they vote.
And Baptists call their pastors. The congregation decides.
Luna –
I have a comment stuck in moderation. But, yes, you’re right about that sounding crazy. Don’t forget what CJ said at the conference in November though – “It’s surprizing how fast I can change my mind!” This man has no business leading anything – from where I sit in the “free seats.”
Muckraker, post 16- :word Awesome. Really.
Is all/most of SGM-ville on hold waiting on the AoR report?
The idea of CJ following “his calling” as a pastor is interesting and the idea of his doing the gruntwork of a pastor is unbelievable, or even unfathomable to me.
What exactly IS going on at CLC? Openness? Does anyone there even know what transparent leaders might look like, enough to actually hold anyone accountable?
And exactly what IS the Ceej doing to earn a paycheck these days, other than prepping for T4G 2012? What exactly does a “pastor” who doesn’t have a congregation do in SGM?
These are not rhetorical questions but those of my inquiring mind.
The kids-in-law joining CHBC is a fascinating twist!
But it makes me even more curious.
Kris – you are spot on. DISSENT is synonymous with gossip/slander. When a CLC friend inquired of her CGL about our situation and whether or not Shank might or should step in the first comment out of that cgl’s mouth was a warning that the report sounded like G&S.
And, Shank proved he believed it, like the little voices of a schizophrenic, when he emphatically declared that G&S can and does ruin churches! Of course what it does in the case of dissent is it ruins the pastor’s power base! But nevertheless let’s not split hairs. :bang
I also think the secret meaning of Gossip & Slander (G&S) is part and parcel of your earlier observations about the secrecy and deception that works in SGM’s favor in people joining. Everybody knows that real gossip is hurtful and divisive, so of course hearing teaching or even a sermon against it would ring true with a new member. But the deception is in the use of the word, as with so many other trigger words or “code” words inside SGM that we all learn if we stay long enough.
ExCLCerMom: :D AW, Shucks.
Does it seem odd to anyone else that Brian and Kristen Chesemore would apply for membership at CHBC if when is supposedly attending Southern Baptist Theological Seminary? Did he change his mind on seminary?
RE “CHBC member’s” #15, I’m tremendously puzzled.
If the Mahaney family members are now members of CHBC, then I’m assuming that means that they are no longer part of SGM whatsoever…right? I mean, as far as I know, a person typically cannot retain membership in two different church congregations, particularly considering the level of devotion and involvement that SGM churches require.
Yet I don’t think there’s been any official announcement about how such key figures within SGM didn’t just leave CLC but actually have left Sovereign Grace Ministries altogether.
Kris, I guess we were writing at exactly the same moment! Yes, the story gets stranger and stranger. I wonder why they would change denominations unless they are ‘better cared for’ by the Baptists…and I did wonder where CJ worships these days. Perhaps it means SGM is now a para-church organization and members of all denominations are welcome into the fold like Acts 29?
CHBC Member
First off, thanks for the updates…keep ’em coming.
I find this interesting. A question to you. Does CHBC confer temporary membership to all folks doing internships? All of the PC students have temporary membership in CLC while they are here in Gaithersburg attending the Pastor’s College. I’m just wondering.
The last time I spoke with BC (October) he was communicating how much pastoral care and covering he was receiving from John Loftness at Solid Rock. But this was before he started his internship. Of course we’re still interested on how BOTH of CJ’s sils now have internships at CHBC.
To the other point, I would find it hard to believe that CJ and his Sils would start a Baptist Church as that would mean they would have to leave SGM. But ya never know…maybe it’s not so hard to believe.
I think I have the sons-in-law confused. Is Steve Whitaker the one down at Southern Baptist Seminary? And, I only thought one son in law had an internship at CHBC. Both Brian and Mike have internships? Don’t CHBC interns follow Mark Dever around all day and basically sit at his feet, to learn from him? What other things do they do?
“Don’t CHBC interns follow Mark Dever around all day and basically sit at his feet, to learn from him? What other things do they do?”
Persona- If you look at Dever’s book about the nine marks of a healthy church, none of the nine are prayer. So they probably won’t be talking to God much.
I think I’d rather have the worst dud of a bumbling nobody pastor who devotes himself to prayer, than any of these big name dudes who don’t even list fervent intercession as a primary vital mark of a healthy church.
Ugh.
I also have a problem that Mark Dever didn’t find any fault in CJ and SGM and seems to be steering them away from repentance and reform.
This is part of what was indicated Mahaney shared at the SGM Pastors’ Conference:
Though Mahaney does make one reference to being a “pastor” most of what Mahaney mentioned was preaching. There can be a significant difference IMO between the two. Preaching is more getting up and speaking before a crowd. Pastoring on the other hand is caring for God’s sheep such as counseling and one on one care etc.
The way I would read what Mahaney said is that he feels he should be somewhere using his talents to preach and perhaps “lead” a church using that talent vs. spend his time in administration like being the leader of SGM.
I think it is true that CJ means to continue preaching; not necessarily ‘pastoring’ the flock. If he ‘pastors’ anyone it will be family and close comrades. For instance, he felt perfectly comfortable pastoring Mark Driscoll, someone he did not even know. He then went to his house to give Mark free advice. CJ also ‘pastored’ Josh and Shannon and other leaders when he felt inclined.
But, he definitely cared little for ‘pastoring’ the common sheep, especial the common, older sheep. Many years ago he began focusing on the youth and that is the demographic he pitches his teaching toward. Thus, it was not entirely surprising to see him extending NEXT this year. That is the age-group he is highly interested in speaking to. Ironically, that age group is likely the biggest membership loss at CLC right now.
Back on the previous thread, there was mention of the little frisbee vs. football contest. Perhaps somebody else commented on this — I’ve been computerless for a few days with a tough time catching up, so forgive me if this is redundant.
The thing that caught my attention wasn’t the frisbee-trashing, or the levity of the moment — no, the whole point of that exercise was to show that the football was thrown by a former U of MD quarterback who was in attendance in the congregation. There’s the whole reason for the frisbee/football contest. It was to show that a football Somebody was in attendance. (Hmm, let’s see what they do to trash-talk an SGM musician if a rock star shows up and plays a few riffs…Dueling Banjos?)
Somebody’s are big deals, not only within SGM, but throughout our celebrity-crazed culture — which explains why we’re so eager to latch onto every word spoken by a celebrity pastor, and why we’re so proud when a known political, sports, or entertainment figure joins our church. Hey, celebrities ought to be just as welcome as the nobodies in church, and where celebrity status helps the cause of Christ, go for it, just as when the spiritual gift of a nobody helps the cause of Christ, go for it.
But shoot — just having a celebrity in our midst does not somehow elevate us to some kind of higher Christian status. Sigh. Jesus — the only celebrity truly worth celebrating. He’s celebrity enough for any church.
Oh — an aside about the joining of CHBC. My neighborhood Baptist church allows associate memberships designed for the snowbird-types who fly south for the winter but remain members of their home churches as well. They don’t get to vote, though I’m sure their tithes, oops, offerings, are more than welcome. And in Presbyterian churches, pastors are not technically members of the church, and have no vote in session or congregational meetings unless there’s a tie. However, pastors’ wives and families may join the church and have all rights and privileges thereof. Now, if anyone has an eye towards attending seminary in the next few years, joining a church of that denomination will provide a tuition discount, if membership meets their time regulations — I think it’s 3 years for Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. But who knows? They might vote to shorten that if a bunch of favorite sons enroll.
All — In conjunction with its main campus in KY, SBTS has satellite campus locations as well as an online program. The DC/Maryland/Northern VA satellite option for SBTS is located at Capitol Hill Baptist.
I continue to be blown away by the seeming breeziness with which CJ and his family have detached themselves from their various SGM “local” churches and have embraced Mark Dever’s ministry.
Their exits would seem to indicate that they didn’t actually have much of a commitment to their churches. Rather than stick it out through CJ’s supposed evaluation and wait (at least) until the AoR report is issued, the two sons-in-law at CLC expressed their disagreement with CLC’s treatment of their father-in-law and fairly early in the process left in a huff.
It’s interesting to me that they felt so free to detach themselves from their “local” church like that. I mean, from the back end, so to speak, I have a very good view of how your average SGMer processes SGM’s emphasis on commitment to one’s local church. Just about every day I hear from people who have far larger concerns and complaints about their SGM churches. Frequently they will have suffered far greater indignities than those that CJ’s sons-in-law thought they suffered because their father-in-law was called on the carpet through Brent’s documents. Yet these average SGMers have been so indoctrinated with the notion that joining a church is akin to marrying the church that it’s like the idea of leaving is an almost unthinkable last resort. I’ve had email conversations with many SGMers who have been faithfully trying for years to work out their difficulties…typically with little success…and yet it’s like they cannot even imagine that an exit is possible, so great is their commitment, their belief in what they’ve been taught.
Where was this sense of commitment in the minds of CJ’s sons-in-law?
Or is there a different rule that applies if you’re part of the Mahaney family? Does one only stay “married” to one’s local SGM church if one’s father-in-law continues to be properly venerated?
Then there’s the whole question of how it is that such key figures in the SGM organization could so quickly embrace a totally different denomination. In my thinking, it just goes to show how very fluid these guys’ convictions about SGM’s “distinctives” actually must be. Again, this is so different from what I see in other SGMers. Most SGMers who have differences with their SGM churches agonize over how in the world they will ever find another place that is both Reformed and Charismatic…that will do church right…that will provide them with the appropriate level of “care”…and accountability…
I get a lot of email on the topic of how to find another church, and most of these conversations are filled with trepidation and the belief that SGM churches are completely unique and practically irreplaceable.
So it blows me away that the key founder of the SGM movement and his sons-in-law and their families would not just depart their local SGM churches at the first real adversity but would also be able to find a new (non-SGM) church home so quickly. That says a lot about what they really believe about SGM.
All the people who are wringing your hands over how you’ll ever find a new church – take note. It’s apparently not that difficult. It doesn’t even have to be Charismatic on paper. Ditch the notion that SGM is that special or unique. The founder and his family have apparently been able to do so.
It’s time to start beating the drums to get Dave Harvey out of SGM leadership. This is all just a complete debacle.
:word
Surely these poor distraught souls will see it, Kris.
But…I don’t know. Most appear to lose the ability to think after joining SGM.
Somewhereintime,
The problem is, who would take his place? Do you really think there is someone on the board who has the integrity to turn this ship around? Someone who has never turned a deaf ear to the bleating of an injured sheep? Someone who has has the strength to play no part in the politics that would have allowed one to rise to the place of prominence in SGM? Maybe God has put someone in place there who has the courageto stand up for what is right and a heart to love God and God’s people. But from what I have seen, those who stand for what is right, seldom get far in SGM.
So who would take his place? Someone who has stood for his and CJ’s junk, or someone who has been trained by them?
I am afraid it is the system that needs to go, not just two of the leaders who are part of the system.
What’s particularly amazing to me is that despite how intentional CJ has always been about everything he does, it’s like there’s a point where he (and his enablers) have lost all sense of how his actions come across to the general public. It’s like CJ is still so full of hubris that he thinks everything he does will be given the benefit of the doubt…that all his actions will always be viewed in the most positive of lights.
Either that, or he just doesn’t care how badly his actions reflect back upon the organization that he founded.
But the thing is, anyone with a shred of common sense can see that with respect to leaving CLC, it was all about feeling like CJ wasn’t treated with the appropriate respect and appreciation. Never mind that no official word had yet come down from the evaluating committee…never mind that CJ is still collecting his hefty salary as denominational president…a perceived slight was enough to send the Mahaney clan running for the exit and into the arms of another denomination. They can try to phrase it up however they want to. They can try to say that it’s about needing to go where they receive the care they need…they can even try to say that it’s about not being a distraction to CLC. Whatever. The fact is that a vast majority of people are just not that dumb. They might want to be dumb about this – they might still want to “believe the best.” But in the end, I don’t see how they can. And I don’t believe that most people will. I don’t believe that most people will continue to deny the obvious – that CJ and his family have demonstrated a thin-skinned sense of entitlement and really have no concern for their supposed “dearest place on earth” but instead run off to pursue what they think best serves themselves at the first inkling of offense.
Different rules apply to those at the top, I guess.
But people aren’t that dumb. SGM’s leaders might think they are. But most people can see how it is. And I am amazed that CJ and his supporters don’t have a better sense of public relations when it comes to how leaving CLC makes him and his family look.
Steve240 @33:
Persona @34:
In my comment #16, I was trying to make the point that biblically the function of a pastor is inextricably connected to shepherding/caring/dwelling with the regular sheep. IMO there is not a separate function of special celebrity leader/preacher/teacher–but SGM and other ministries have often defined “pastor” in this way now.
The local church should not be paying the salaries of men like CJ, the only ones you could make a case for supporting financially is a real shepherd. If a person wants a career of celebrity teacher, his living should come from those who attend his conferences and buy his books. God has purposely designed the role of pastor, the leader of a church, to actually be humble, mature, gentle and truly caring of the flock.
Muckraker,
Comments 16 & 42 – :goodpost :goodpost :goodpost
Back in the comments of the previous post, “Res Ipsa” said,
I didn’t want this to get lost in the shuffle.
While I continue to see Brent as something of a hero for having the integrity and the consistency to stick with the rules and the mindset of what SGM has always claimed to stand for, it’s fascinating that while Brent is fighting tooth and nail to hold CJ accountable, he is still resisting embracing a similar kind of repentance for himself when it comes to how he is viewed by those beneath him.
In a way, it’s not at all surprising. I think Brent continues to believe in the basic tenets of the SGM way. I think Brent continues to subscribe to the SGM definitions of humility and accountability and repentance. I don’t think he has yet reached a place where he sees the system as foundationally wrong and flawed. I think he still believes that any problems lie in CJ’s refusal to abide by the rules of the system. It’s like Brent’s still got it backwards. Rather than seeing CJ’s arrogant refusal to submit himself to any authority as a result of SGM’s crackpot-twisted incorrect views of authority, Brent sees CJ’s bad behavior as a cause of SGM’s problems.
Muckraker, etc- we were told when we joined that the pastors did not fellowship with the regular sheep, and don’t expect to invite them to dinner sort of thing. The pastors work with CG leaders and the leaders work with the regular sheep.(I did see quite a few exceptions happening, probably because their kids hung out with the kids of ordinary non pastor families, and because they still had enough heart at that time to care about people. But it wasn’t the official position.)
Now, in a church of many hundreds or thousands, there is a practical dimension to this and I can actually agree with it. By having a small group structure, with good guys assigned to pastor the small group (and it is pastoral, even if you don’t use that word and they are not ordained), and having the pastors work with those leaders and only tackle the most difficult ordinary people cases like let’s say sex abuse, in theory you get personal relationships and personal care church wide.
That’s theory, and it works if the intention is to provide the best care that you can. God blesses. But if the intention is to hold onto position and power from a haughty spirit that refuses to recognize the many membered body, and feels superior, and in reality is legalistic instead of ministering grace, then you get a long trail of wounded sheep a la SGM.
I think its sort of a trickle down effect. By all reports the late Dave Wilkerson oozed so much tender love and compassion that even though the thousands of people in his church could not have a personal relationship, it didn’t matter, they felt cared for. I am in a church of hundreds and the pastor and his wife can’t be personal friends with everybody, or meet all the time with everybody, but we all know we are loved, prayed for, cared about. (We have small groups).
Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build. You can build different ways, but God has to be at work. And that has to go back to fervent intercession, bible, caring about the poor and needy. It’s Ok to be a leader over leaders over small groups, but it isn’t OK to be a self centered sociopath. At least this is how I see it.
Kris:
Yes! :word
I agree, Kris.
For the folks who know Brent, it’s mindboggling to read his blog. However, as I’ve said before, I am thankful that God is using Brent to expose SGM.
I wonder how many others are like Brent?
Kris, #44…… very good insight and analysis.
I believe this type of dynamic is the result of one (Brent in this case) being deceived (believing something to be true that is actually false). As you suggested, I think Brent believes the fundamental problem to be, “CJ’s bad behavior as a cause of SGM’s problems” (false) when in actuality it is, “CJ’s arrogant refusal to submit himself to any authority as a result of SGM’s crackpot-twisted incorrect views of authority” (true). Breaking the power and influence of this deception from one’s paradigm is a surmountable task, but is absolutely necessary for anyone who desires to be free and regain the capacity to see and think clearly regarding the multitude of issues represented in the SGM horror story. Unfortunately, most SGM pastors are eyeball deep in this deception. The young pastor I continue to pray for at KingsWay is a prime example of this phenomenon…… the deception is so strong he is willing to go down with the ship rather than face the stark reality of what has actually happened, crying out, “the Titanic is unsinkable…..blub, blub. blub…..
You know I remember a while back at covfel where this one family was honored for leaving their state of indiana to come to covfel. There was no sgm church in that state and still is not. However, i find it quite odd they were praised for that. It was a while ago, so my memory might be fading, but I do remember someone coming to covfel from the state of indiana. What about staying committed to the local church? Well, I guess its ok to leave that church because it wasn’t sgm. uggg.
Keepinstep,
From the previous thread you asked…
“AKS #486: Thanks so much for those MacArthur comments. If you got them from an online source, would you please provide a link?”
Here’s the link: http://www.gty.org/resources/Sermons/56-13