His name- we also liked our local church but could not submit up the chain to CJ. Hub too was in lower level leadership and it became a matter of personal integrity. Once we fully understood that they required trusting submission to the apostles, even if we liked the local church, we had to face that we were submitted to the top alpha dogs. And if you don’t respect and trust the top, then the honest thing IMO is to leave.
No regrets! I think anybody who decides to leave SGM will look back with grattitude eventually. Of course right now I would wait for AoR’s report and see what shakes out, and if CLC leaves along with many other SGM churches. Perhaps the NYC church will leave SGM along with CLC and others, so NYC, you can wait and pray until April or later.
If your pastors seem entrenched in SGM and submitted to the board, I’d advise you to leave, but perhaps don’t decide that now, wait a few months. I happen to know of 2 SGM pastors (not in NYC) who want to break with CJ and the board but are waiting. Then there is the mysterious traitor pastor who keeps leaking everything the board sends to SGM pastors. So the anti SGM pastors are out there, along with some CLC guys who appear to be breaking with SGM as well. Give it until summer in my opinion unless the Lord is strongly urging you to go now.
I don’t see how anyone could be the least bit surprised by the recent outcome. It is merely a typical case of the machine or institution doing what it does best; protect itself. It’s also a typical case of the machine minions doing what they do best. They are ties to the machine body and soul and are programmed to protect the machine at all costs. I hate terribly to use TV or movie analygies, but this is a good reflection of the Borg.
I agree with 5years up to a point. Sticking with the machine in hopes that things will change is very dangerous. What happens when they don’t change? You know, the machine doesn’t want to change. It and it’s minions will fight change with every weapon they have. When the do fight there will be casualties. Putting your faith in a machine (that’s what it is) or even a pastor in hopes of change is fatal. Perhaps some pastors will “pull out” and perhaps they won’t. How can you call it integrity if a pastor keeps sticking with a fatally flawed system in hope something “might” happen?
Therefore “Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.” “I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty.”
:beat
““Authority is like soap, the more you use it the less you will have of it.” – Mark Dever”
I found the quote on joshharris.com….I thought it had something to do with the abuse of authority. Something like the more you lord it over people, the less they will respect you. Maybe I’m wrong.
I think you are new here. It sometimes “takes time” to get to know the people on particular blogs. Give Sopy some time and you will find he/she has a heart of gold. Don’t be too quick to judge, a thing some SGMers are unknowingly trained in. :D
NYC- sometime in March the Ambassadors of Reconciliation report comes out. If you read the linked panel commentary, the SGM board says AoR is not evaluating CJ but are helping with group Reconciliation.
However, given that over 100 pastors have been “degifted” by SGM and many of them had sad tales to tell AoR, along with lay people victims (like parents with bungled sex abuse cases involving their kids), and other sordid tales of woe involving former leaders and members abused at the hands of heavy handed authoritarian pastors lording it over the flock, I think the AoR report cannot possibly help but reflect on many practices and legalistic doctrines that go straight back to CJ.
BRC- when pastors joined and were hired, they agreed to submit to certain things and must honor their vows. I would think that right now, some of them may feel that it is a matter of due process to wait for the AoR report. They may feel like they need to give the board every opportunity to repent. I cretainly agree that they appear to be unrepentant hard hearted sociopaths, but still, the matter of due process and justice must be considered. It is like hearings for heresy at seminaries and in presbyteries. Maybe a guy wrote a book that is off the deep end and clearly heretical, but policies demand a hearing and a trial and so forth, and he cannot be dismissed until all avenues of appeal are exhausted. Even Matt 18 requires you to have taken another with you to appeal and then gone to the church, before you excommunicate a person, even if you know he is cheating on his wife.
So, I think we need to allow that right now some SGM pastors may be waiting for AoR to report before they split, as a matter of conscience and submission to due process.
Once AoR issues the report, personally if it was me I would feel that I had stayed long enough, whether the report is dam-ing of SGM or wishy washy whitewash. I would feel that there was no further point to appeal if they exonerate SGM, and no reason to stay if the report is hard hitting and the SGM board does not clearly repent. But I can understand the rationale for waiting, and I think God will bless those who do. I don’t think its wrong to split, believe me, but waiting until April to see the results, in the long run sets a good precedent. If anything, the fact that SGM had no mechanism to appeal wrongs was a huge problem, and it honors God to respect calling in mediators and waiting for them to report.
All of this reminds me of the OJ Simpson trial outcome. Everyone knew he was guilty, and no one was surprised with the verdict. He was eventually convicted of something else, went to jail, but that solution was not the same as if truth had prevailed.
Thanks for clarifying! Just the same . . . I would have come to the same conclusion as you if my pastor had that conversation with me and then was thankful about the pastors conference. When I read the transcripts if CJ’s messages I was sick. I had not heard/read his teachings in some time. I guess I do not have his kind of courage?? :wink:
Back when Brent’s docs were released I looked up the definition for blackmail, too. Seems like any threat that has the affect of compliance is considered ‘blackmail’ in legal terms, just as the use of a fake firearm in a bank heist is also considered ‘real’ when the robber is arrested and tried.
I wonder what Larry and Dorise think about the new docs?
@Bridget that still doesnt make making light of what happened with a Rihanna song remix and “hahahahahahaha” and “;)” right, true or no? im not condemning sopy i stated that it wasnt cool and that this isnt TMZ. its like parody.
“Don’t be too quick to judge, a thing some SGMers are unknowingly trained in.” :|
thats not a helpful addendum to your post.
@5PDI man. thats sad.
“So, I think we need to allow that right now some SGM pastors may be waiting for AoR to report before they split, as a matter of conscience and submission to due process.”
:word
“it honors God to respect calling in mediators and waiting for them to report.”
stunned- SGM has had zero due process. The A team did whatever they wanted whenever they wanted to whoever they wanted. It was dictatorial. Often it filtered down to pastors who were exactly the same.
They have finally been forced, after 30 years of shepherding abuses,to go the mediation route with a respected Evangelical outside team. This is a first. It should have happened decades ago. On an individual level some efforts have been made, like Jim B at Refuge going with Happy Mom and Wallace to speak to their former pastors. Did they ever call in Peacemakers with anybody? I heard (read at Refuge?) Ken Sande has gotten involved before and CJ would never listen. But structurally there has been nothing but submission to whoever is in position above you.
That is why I think every prayer and support of AoR needs to be made at this time. I am hoping their report will be so open and realistic that everyone can see how denominations with no structure for mediating conflicts are denominations not worth joining. I hope it will underscore how so many people were degifted or abused with no means of seeking justice or appeal.
I think SGM will decide to set up some sort of means to address serious conflicts, and it will be inhouse, and another silly excuse to circle the wagons like these panels were. So I don’t expect real change. But I do think a lot of wrong will get exposed by AoR, and pastors can leave enmasse taking their churches with them, with more “ammo” to defend their actions, after the AoR report. Just my opinion. We’ll have to wait and see. No need to leave now unless God says to, if you’ve been in this long already.
i remember when i left the WOF church i went to. instead of just disappearing (like a lot of people did) i went to the deacons, followed protocol, wrote a note, met with the pastor and left on good terms. all this to say letting protocol play out is ok from both sides. Ive learned to hang on to miracles and turn arounds when it comes to these things.
im encouraged by whats going on at my church. seems like we locally are going in an opposite direction of what you guys are accusing the SGM board. hallelujah. :clap
Hi NYC and welcome to the site-
I have a question about “protocol.” #114 I have left a few churches since becoming a Christian a few years ago in pursuit of the one that God had for me and each one that I left my departure looked a little different. What is the protocol that you refer to? I am a little uninformed about what you are referring to. Thanks.
It seems I am having a communication problem with you?
I am sorry it is not a helpful addendum to my post. I was not meaning to be unhelpful. I, myself, came to realize this “judging to quickly” problem in myself and others at my SGM church. It was a reality brought on by unbalanced SGM teaching, my lack of discernment, and lack of grace (love?) toward others.
Have you asked Sopy what he/she means by the comment or are you sure you know?
its different from place to place. but whatever the governing body adheres to i suppose. even if thats revolving or evolving. i think of Rom 13. i was urged by my christian friends (who had nothing to do with my church) to “do it the right way” as opposed to just disappearing. so im trusting that God will see to it that when all is said and done, right decisions will be made both on the grand scale and my local level. And I pray that hearts are mended. its really moving
@Bridget you make a good point. i didnt ask. i was thrown off by the grin, hahahahah, and wink in the post. i think after all the shock and reality of what you guys were posting came to me, it came off as a wild curveball. too soon, too soon!
I was told by [my pastor]a little before I left, that if I could not support SGM that it created serious questions.
This is a REAL attempt to coerce you! (Not blackmail kind of influence like CJ’s attempt to “influence Larry) I would call it an assault! Your pastor is attempting to coerce you into doing things his way, following his lead, and capitulating to SGM whims and passions!
Absolutely NOT! YOUR church is exactly that…YOUR CHURCH. YOU pay for it! YOU pay his salary! HE is there to serve YOU, not the other way around.
—> NOTE TO EVERYONE ! ! ! IF your pastor from your long time church ever tells you “if you don’t like how we run things here you can leave” you tell him this is YOUR church and it is WORTH FIGHTING FOR!
NYC – thanks. I agree that we should communicate our departures from churches as best we can, but sometimes circumstances don’t always allow us to leave on good terms. I think we have to be ok with not always doing what a protocol might encourage us to do. I think of times that I have had to leave a relationship (with a person or a church, etc.) not on such good terms. Sometimes people just have to disappear from a church and it’s ok. That’s why there’s Grace. Thanks for responding. It’s always good for me to be reminded of Grace.
You look so dumb right now
Standing outside your church
finding no need to apologize
For some reason, this strikes me as tremendously funny.
Maybe because it is short, sweet, and to the point.
Maybe even funnier if I imagine it from Cj’s point of view:
I look so awesome
standing here at Capitol Baptist
Am I amazing or what?
@5DPI I have seen the ‘100 pastors’ degifted statistic before and wonder where this comes from? Is it something acknowledged by SGM? An estimate based on solid guessing? It seems odd to me that it could be so high, even when factoring in any/all paid staff, since most of them are pastors. But if that is a solid number, I would appreciate something confirmatory – because it is terrible.
Today we are grateful for the news that CJ/Dad has been exonerated from the charges against him and fully restored to fruitful, gospel ministry. We could not let this moment pass without thanking so many of you who communicated your prayers and encouragement during this difficult year. Even though we weren’t able to reply personally, we read every one of your emails and our souls were comforted by the many verses, thoughts, and prayers. As we are fond of saying here at girltalk, you did us the truest kindness in the world–you prayed for us. We can never thank you enough. And thank you for reading even though our posting has been spotty. We look forward to more regular blogging in the days ahead. We may have to wait until heaven to thank each of you in person, but until then, we hope you know we are truly grateful for your friendship and care.
I cretainly agree that they appear to be unrepentant hard hearted sociopaths, but still, the matter of due process and justice must be considered. It is like hearings for heresy at seminaries and in presbyteries. Maybe a guy wrote a book that is off the deep end and clearly heretical, but policies demand a hearing and a trial and so forth, and he cannot be dismissed until all avenues of appeal are exhausted.
If we didn’t do things this way our names would all have to be changed to CJ, Harvey, Shank or Detwiler!
The impulse of the legalist is to leave rather than love, separate rather than serve, condemn rather than care.
Gee, Kerrin, I thought he was referring to CJ who during his season of reflection left CLC, separated from SG churches, and condemned Josh for something that called for mediation!
If that were the case I’d have thought this would be said the day CJ fled to Capital Hill. Not the day when CJ’s “exoneration” is released. Timing, if not everything, holds some significance.
This is what I can think of off the top of my head. If you read through the archives you can find more. These are the ones that made the headlines. Those that quietly left it’s hard to know.
I heard AoR had a list of 60 or more and that Larry T provided the names of 106 people who were poorly treated. Any old timers are welcome to improve or correct mnumbers.
6 from Fairfax, Va
9 or more from Chesapeake, Va
3 from N. Denver
2 from S. Denver
5 from Gilbert, Az
2 from Metro, Fla
1 or 2 in San Diego
2 from Kingsway in Richmond, Va
1 from Frisco, Tx
2 from Ashburn, Va
2 from CovFel, Pa
4 from CLC
4 from Charlotte
4 from Atlanta
You are correct. Why do so many pastors today not view their responsibility in this way? Why do they seem to think a congregation exists for the purpose of the party line? Why do so many people fall into this line of thinking without recognizing that they have?
WOW I just slogged my way through the whole doc and man does my brain hurts 8O I am used to reading and writting technical docs not lawyer stuff….
I am curious to know what most people think of the conclusions at the end of the each panels report?
They seem like there is alot of “he didnt do it and he won’t do it again plus were gunna make sure no one does it in the future”
Brent has a new post, I am sure he is going into overdrive.
Here is what I find amusing – anyone think it is interesting when Brent fires off these emails, or when others email the SGM board and Brent posts them, they still copy Josh Harris. I think that is a riot and I am sure it gets under the board’s skin.
What I think is happening, is that everyone recognizes Josh as being as much of a leader, or perhaps more of a leader than those on the board. Regardless of what we all think of Josh, it appears he operated from his conscience, rather than fear of man. The Sunday message Josh gave back in July, and then the family meetings, were the only time I can remember any of the SGM big dogs just talking like a regular person. Josh let us know what he thought before he was told what to say. I appreciated that.
The dynamic playing out with Josh reminds me of the movie Gladiator. Maximus the great military leader needed to get out of the way so the cowardly Commodus could come to power. In order to set himself up as emperor of Rome, Commodus gave orders to have Maximus murdered. When the people found out years later that Maximus was still alive, it was obvious who the people and the military considered a better leader. They would have followed Maximus in a heartbeat, but Commodus used intimidation to keep people in line and propaganda to discredit Maximus. Throughout the movie, the only way that Commodus was able to keep power, was via the complacency of other men. The other politicians in Rome knew that they needed to do something, but they could not make a decision or get on the same page. These other men operated out of fear of man, in this case, Commodus. Anyway, the movie is inspiring because Maximus is loyal to the people and he puts others’ interests above his own.
Maximus loved Rome, and perhaps Josh genuinely loves his church. Commodus wanted people to love him so badly, but he lived a cowardly life consumed with his reputation, and people saw right through him. He did not have any real friends, other than the other corrupt people around him. This reminds me of Dave Harvey and these other jokers. Josh Harris has given folks a glimpse of what leadership looks like, and I think he has earned some people’s respect. It must drive them nuts.
@Nick … very helpful. So far as you know, were all these degifted by the Board’s involvement or were some entirely local matters untouched by the Board?
One of the things I was struck with after reading the pdf today is that not only did CJ coerce the Tomczak family, but Dave Harvey, Steve Shank, and Brent all participated in it and they went so far as to get legal counsel about it. That seems to me to be very grievous and scandalous sin.
I did not add Alan R to the list as he was counseling me at the time he stepped down… there may be unknowns, as there often are, to these things, but from what he personally told me, he did not feel called and wanted to step down..
5years: The only thing I can think of that a pastor should be “joining” is the Church of Jesus Christ and all allegiance should be to Him. The thought of “hired” pastors is totally foreign to the scriptures and is a fabrication of man to impose a heirarchial system on the church that has no business being there. As to where a pastor’s allegiance should lie, it’s is first and foremost to Jesus, and then to the sheep that the Lord has placed in his care. To put it in Jesus’ own words “The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep”. That means the welfare of the sheep is more important to the shepherd (excuse me, Pastor)is more important to him tham any allegiance to an institution or, in my owrds, the machine. Peter put it quite plainly when warned by the Sanhedrin not to preach further about Jesus. He said; “”We ought to obey God rather than men”.
For a shepherd to see the overwhelming evidence toward rampant abuse and decide for whatever reason to remain a part of such a system is to put the very sheep God has intrusted him with in jeopardy, both spiritually and mentally. At the first sign of impropriety the shepherd should start asking questions and expect straight answers. That not forthcoming, he should do the obvious. Remember, the safety of the flock is foremost for him. Or, it should be.
:beat
One of the things I was struck with after reading the pdf today is that not only did CJ coerce the Tomczak family, but Dave Harvey, Steve Shank, and Brent all participated in it and they went so far as to get legal counsel about it. That seems to me to be very grievous and scandalous sin.
:( :( This makes me very sad. Apparently, SGM is ignoring this fact.
CJ: “I coerced, not blackmailed.” = Clinton: “It depends on what your meaning of the word “is” is.”
So the panel says it is okay for C.J. Mahaney to stay around as a pastor. You know,I was really hoping for a better outcome then this. I really wanted the truth to matter for once. I so much wanted to write C.J. a letter and ask him just to do the right thing and find a job in the secular world. He has brought much shame to the church of Jesus Christ. All these years he preached one thing and wound up doing the other. There is a name for that–hypocrite. I think he is just much too proud to get it.
I use to think some of the things that people talked about on here were petty. I am not talking about the cases of abuse that were brought up here. I use to wonder how something like that could ever happen at a SGM church. Now I guess we all know. I was also one of the arrogant ones when I heard of someone leaving to go to another church. How could you leave CLC. It is the best show in town. I even asked my coworker that when he went to a perfectly fine church around the corner from CLC.
I hope and pray that the pastors do the right thing.
From CLC: I always wondered…why did Roger Dillon (CJ’s bro in law) “step down” (this was waaaay back) Was he the first “shanking”? Then there was Chuck Thompson? (No one ever said why…)
@ExClcer’sMom #99 the below.
———-
-grin-
hahahahahahaha
Sopy ;~)
———-
Rihanna’s song is considerable but the signature was not cool.
His name- we also liked our local church but could not submit up the chain to CJ. Hub too was in lower level leadership and it became a matter of personal integrity. Once we fully understood that they required trusting submission to the apostles, even if we liked the local church, we had to face that we were submitted to the top alpha dogs. And if you don’t respect and trust the top, then the honest thing IMO is to leave.
No regrets! I think anybody who decides to leave SGM will look back with grattitude eventually. Of course right now I would wait for AoR’s report and see what shakes out, and if CLC leaves along with many other SGM churches. Perhaps the NYC church will leave SGM along with CLC and others, so NYC, you can wait and pray until April or later.
If your pastors seem entrenched in SGM and submitted to the board, I’d advise you to leave, but perhaps don’t decide that now, wait a few months. I happen to know of 2 SGM pastors (not in NYC) who want to break with CJ and the board but are waiting. Then there is the mysterious traitor pastor who keeps leaking everything the board sends to SGM pastors. So the anti SGM pastors are out there, along with some CLC guys who appear to be breaking with SGM as well. Give it until summer in my opinion unless the Lord is strongly urging you to go now.
I don’t see how anyone could be the least bit surprised by the recent outcome. It is merely a typical case of the machine or institution doing what it does best; protect itself. It’s also a typical case of the machine minions doing what they do best. They are ties to the machine body and soul and are programmed to protect the machine at all costs. I hate terribly to use TV or movie analygies, but this is a good reflection of the Borg.
I agree with 5years up to a point. Sticking with the machine in hopes that things will change is very dangerous. What happens when they don’t change? You know, the machine doesn’t want to change. It and it’s minions will fight change with every weapon they have. When the do fight there will be casualties. Putting your faith in a machine (that’s what it is) or even a pastor in hopes of change is fatal. Perhaps some pastors will “pull out” and perhaps they won’t. How can you call it integrity if a pastor keeps sticking with a fatally flawed system in hope something “might” happen?
Therefore “Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.” “I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty.”
:beat
@ 5PDI good call. :) whats happening in April btw? CJ moving out of leadership and Josh in?
Bridget @ 94,
““Authority is like soap, the more you use it the less you will have of it.” – Mark Dever”
I found the quote on joshharris.com….I thought it had something to do with the abuse of authority. Something like the more you lord it over people, the less they will respect you. Maybe I’m wrong.
NYC –
I think you are new here. It sometimes “takes time” to get to know the people on particular blogs. Give Sopy some time and you will find he/she has a heart of gold. Don’t be too quick to judge, a thing some SGMers are unknowingly trained in. :D
NYC- sometime in March the Ambassadors of Reconciliation report comes out. If you read the linked panel commentary, the SGM board says AoR is not evaluating CJ but are helping with group Reconciliation.
However, given that over 100 pastors have been “degifted” by SGM and many of them had sad tales to tell AoR, along with lay people victims (like parents with bungled sex abuse cases involving their kids), and other sordid tales of woe involving former leaders and members abused at the hands of heavy handed authoritarian pastors lording it over the flock, I think the AoR report cannot possibly help but reflect on many practices and legalistic doctrines that go straight back to CJ.
BRC- when pastors joined and were hired, they agreed to submit to certain things and must honor their vows. I would think that right now, some of them may feel that it is a matter of due process to wait for the AoR report. They may feel like they need to give the board every opportunity to repent. I cretainly agree that they appear to be unrepentant hard hearted sociopaths, but still, the matter of due process and justice must be considered. It is like hearings for heresy at seminaries and in presbyteries. Maybe a guy wrote a book that is off the deep end and clearly heretical, but policies demand a hearing and a trial and so forth, and he cannot be dismissed until all avenues of appeal are exhausted. Even Matt 18 requires you to have taken another with you to appeal and then gone to the church, before you excommunicate a person, even if you know he is cheating on his wife.
So, I think we need to allow that right now some SGM pastors may be waiting for AoR to report before they split, as a matter of conscience and submission to due process.
Once AoR issues the report, personally if it was me I would feel that I had stayed long enough, whether the report is dam-ing of SGM or wishy washy whitewash. I would feel that there was no further point to appeal if they exonerate SGM, and no reason to stay if the report is hard hitting and the SGM board does not clearly repent. But I can understand the rationale for waiting, and I think God will bless those who do. I don’t think its wrong to split, believe me, but waiting until April to see the results, in the long run sets a good precedent. If anything, the fact that SGM had no mechanism to appeal wrongs was a huge problem, and it honors God to respect calling in mediators and waiting for them to report.
All of this reminds me of the OJ Simpson trial outcome. Everyone knew he was guilty, and no one was surprised with the verdict. He was eventually convicted of something else, went to jail, but that solution was not the same as if truth had prevailed.
His Name Is Jesus –
Thanks for clarifying! Just the same . . . I would have come to the same conclusion as you if my pastor had that conversation with me and then was thankful about the pastors conference. When I read the transcripts if CJ’s messages I was sick. I had not heard/read his teachings in some time. I guess I do not have his kind of courage?? :wink:
5Years, I think your point on due process may be an important one.
It’s sad that many of us were not given the same respect in SGM. Seemed it was more about a pastors whim.
Back when Brent’s docs were released I looked up the definition for blackmail, too. Seems like any threat that has the affect of compliance is considered ‘blackmail’ in legal terms, just as the use of a fake firearm in a bank heist is also considered ‘real’ when the robber is arrested and tried.
I wonder what Larry and Dorise think about the new docs?
@Bridget that still doesnt make making light of what happened with a Rihanna song remix and “hahahahahahaha” and “;)” right, true or no? im not condemning sopy i stated that it wasnt cool and that this isnt TMZ. its like parody.
“Don’t be too quick to judge, a thing some SGMers are unknowingly trained in.” :|
thats not a helpful addendum to your post.
@5PDI man. thats sad.
“So, I think we need to allow that right now some SGM pastors may be waiting for AoR to report before they split, as a matter of conscience and submission to due process.”
:word
“it honors God to respect calling in mediators and waiting for them to report.”
:)
stunned- SGM has had zero due process. The A team did whatever they wanted whenever they wanted to whoever they wanted. It was dictatorial. Often it filtered down to pastors who were exactly the same.
They have finally been forced, after 30 years of shepherding abuses,to go the mediation route with a respected Evangelical outside team. This is a first. It should have happened decades ago. On an individual level some efforts have been made, like Jim B at Refuge going with Happy Mom and Wallace to speak to their former pastors. Did they ever call in Peacemakers with anybody? I heard (read at Refuge?) Ken Sande has gotten involved before and CJ would never listen. But structurally there has been nothing but submission to whoever is in position above you.
That is why I think every prayer and support of AoR needs to be made at this time. I am hoping their report will be so open and realistic that everyone can see how denominations with no structure for mediating conflicts are denominations not worth joining. I hope it will underscore how so many people were degifted or abused with no means of seeking justice or appeal.
I think SGM will decide to set up some sort of means to address serious conflicts, and it will be inhouse, and another silly excuse to circle the wagons like these panels were. So I don’t expect real change. But I do think a lot of wrong will get exposed by AoR, and pastors can leave enmasse taking their churches with them, with more “ammo” to defend their actions, after the AoR report. Just my opinion. We’ll have to wait and see. No need to leave now unless God says to, if you’ve been in this long already.
@stunned
i remember when i left the WOF church i went to. instead of just disappearing (like a lot of people did) i went to the deacons, followed protocol, wrote a note, met with the pastor and left on good terms. all this to say letting protocol play out is ok from both sides. Ive learned to hang on to miracles and turn arounds when it comes to these things.
im encouraged by whats going on at my church. seems like we locally are going in an opposite direction of what you guys are accusing the SGM board. hallelujah. :clap
NYC,
That is great to hear. I pray the people in your church continue to and have always been loved well. Not perfectly, but well.
Hi NYC and welcome to the site-
I have a question about “protocol.” #114 I have left a few churches since becoming a Christian a few years ago in pursuit of the one that God had for me and each one that I left my departure looked a little different. What is the protocol that you refer to? I am a little uninformed about what you are referring to. Thanks.
NYC –
It seems I am having a communication problem with you?
I am sorry it is not a helpful addendum to my post. I was not meaning to be unhelpful. I, myself, came to realize this “judging to quickly” problem in myself and others at my SGM church. It was a reality brought on by unbalanced SGM teaching, my lack of discernment, and lack of grace (love?) toward others.
Have you asked Sopy what he/she means by the comment or are you sure you know?
@LMPG #116
its different from place to place. but whatever the governing body adheres to i suppose. even if thats revolving or evolving. i think of Rom 13. i was urged by my christian friends (who had nothing to do with my church) to “do it the right way” as opposed to just disappearing. so im trusting that God will see to it that when all is said and done, right decisions will be made both on the grand scale and my local level. And I pray that hearts are mended. its really moving
@Bridget you make a good point. i didnt ask. i was thrown off by the grin, hahahahah, and wink in the post. i think after all the shock and reality of what you guys were posting came to me, it came off as a wild curveball. too soon, too soon!
:trainwreck
His Name is Jesus #98 –
Dude – This is bold faced intimidation!
This is a REAL attempt to coerce you! (Not blackmail kind of influence like CJ’s attempt to “influence Larry) I would call it an assault! Your pastor is attempting to coerce you into doing things his way, following his lead, and capitulating to SGM whims and passions!
Absolutely NOT! YOUR church is exactly that…YOUR CHURCH. YOU pay for it! YOU pay his salary! HE is there to serve YOU, not the other way around.
—> NOTE TO EVERYONE ! ! ! IF your pastor from your long time church ever tells you “if you don’t like how we run things here you can leave” you tell him this is YOUR church and it is WORTH FIGHTING FOR!
NYC – thanks. I agree that we should communicate our departures from churches as best we can, but sometimes circumstances don’t always allow us to leave on good terms. I think we have to be ok with not always doing what a protocol might encourage us to do. I think of times that I have had to leave a relationship (with a person or a church, etc.) not on such good terms. Sometimes people just have to disappear from a church and it’s ok. That’s why there’s Grace. Thanks for responding. It’s always good for me to be reminded of Grace.
:amen @LMPG #121
5yearsinPDI said in #113,
“On an individual level some efforts have been made, like Jim B at Refuge going with Happy Mom and Wallace to speak to their former pastors”
Clarification, WE asked Jim P to attend just one of our MANY meetings with our former pastors at Sov Grace/Fairfax.
B. R. Clifton #103 –
Open the pod doors, HAL!
I’m sorry, Dave, I can’t do that.
You look so dumb right now
Standing outside your church
finding no need to apologize
For some reason, this strikes me as tremendously funny.
Maybe because it is short, sweet, and to the point.
Maybe even funnier if I imagine it from Cj’s point of view:
I look so awesome
standing here at Capitol Baptist
Am I amazing or what?
@5DPI I have seen the ‘100 pastors’ degifted statistic before and wonder where this comes from? Is it something acknowledged by SGM? An estimate based on solid guessing? It seems odd to me that it could be so high, even when factoring in any/all paid staff, since most of them are pastors. But if that is a solid number, I would appreciate something confirmatory – because it is terrible.
From Girltalk…
Today we are grateful for the news that CJ/Dad has been exonerated from the charges against him and fully restored to fruitful, gospel ministry. We could not let this moment pass without thanking so many of you who communicated your prayers and encouragement during this difficult year. Even though we weren’t able to reply personally, we read every one of your emails and our souls were comforted by the many verses, thoughts, and prayers. As we are fond of saying here at girltalk, you did us the truest kindness in the world–you prayed for us. We can never thank you enough. And thank you for reading even though our posting has been spotty. We look forward to more regular blogging in the days ahead. We may have to wait until heaven to thank each of you in person, but until then, we hope you know we are truly grateful for your friendship and care.
:barf:
5yearsinPDI #107 –
If we didn’t do things this way our names would all have to be changed to CJ, Harvey, Shank or Detwiler!
@QE2,
If that were the case I’d have thought this would be said the day CJ fled to Capital Hill. Not the day when CJ’s “exoneration” is released. Timing, if not everything, holds some significance.
Epaphras #126 –
This is what I can think of off the top of my head. If you read through the archives you can find more. These are the ones that made the headlines. Those that quietly left it’s hard to know.
I heard AoR had a list of 60 or more and that Larry T provided the names of 106 people who were poorly treated. Any old timers are welcome to improve or correct mnumbers.
6 from Fairfax, Va
9 or more from Chesapeake, Va
3 from N. Denver
2 from S. Denver
5 from Gilbert, Az
2 from Metro, Fla
1 or 2 in San Diego
2 from Kingsway in Richmond, Va
1 from Frisco, Tx
2 from Ashburn, Va
2 from CovFel, Pa
4 from CLC
4 from Charlotte
4 from Atlanta
IntheNickoftime-
You are correct. Why do so many pastors today not view their responsibility in this way? Why do they seem to think a congregation exists for the purpose of the party line? Why do so many people fall into this line of thinking without recognizing that they have?
Nick, #130
i noticed a city is missing. *relief* although, that IS hefty and sad. :(
WOW I just slogged my way through the whole doc and man does my brain hurts 8O I am used to reading and writting technical docs not lawyer stuff….
I am curious to know what most people think of the conclusions at the end of the each panels report?
They seem like there is alot of “he didnt do it and he won’t do it again plus were gunna make sure no one does it in the future”
Nick #130,
You can add 2 from Solid Rock in Riverdale, MD
Brent has a new post, I am sure he is going into overdrive.
Here is what I find amusing – anyone think it is interesting when Brent fires off these emails, or when others email the SGM board and Brent posts them, they still copy Josh Harris. I think that is a riot and I am sure it gets under the board’s skin.
What I think is happening, is that everyone recognizes Josh as being as much of a leader, or perhaps more of a leader than those on the board. Regardless of what we all think of Josh, it appears he operated from his conscience, rather than fear of man. The Sunday message Josh gave back in July, and then the family meetings, were the only time I can remember any of the SGM big dogs just talking like a regular person. Josh let us know what he thought before he was told what to say. I appreciated that.
The dynamic playing out with Josh reminds me of the movie Gladiator. Maximus the great military leader needed to get out of the way so the cowardly Commodus could come to power. In order to set himself up as emperor of Rome, Commodus gave orders to have Maximus murdered. When the people found out years later that Maximus was still alive, it was obvious who the people and the military considered a better leader. They would have followed Maximus in a heartbeat, but Commodus used intimidation to keep people in line and propaganda to discredit Maximus. Throughout the movie, the only way that Commodus was able to keep power, was via the complacency of other men. The other politicians in Rome knew that they needed to do something, but they could not make a decision or get on the same page. These other men operated out of fear of man, in this case, Commodus. Anyway, the movie is inspiring because Maximus is loyal to the people and he puts others’ interests above his own.
Maximus loved Rome, and perhaps Josh genuinely loves his church. Commodus wanted people to love him so badly, but he lived a cowardly life consumed with his reputation, and people saw right through him. He did not have any real friends, other than the other corrupt people around him. This reminds me of Dave Harvey and these other jokers. Josh Harris has given folks a glimpse of what leadership looks like, and I think he has earned some people’s respect. It must drive them nuts.
hey NYC – regarding post 114, do you go to the SGM church in Brooklyn?
Nick 130
There are 3 i know of in cov fel, Bill Patton, Joe Mcmullen, and Don Shorey
@Nick … very helpful. So far as you know, were all these degifted by the Board’s involvement or were some entirely local matters untouched by the Board?
glad i am out #137
Add Alan Redrup to the list.
One of the things I was struck with after reading the pdf today is that not only did CJ coerce the Tomczak family, but Dave Harvey, Steve Shank, and Brent all participated in it and they went so far as to get legal counsel about it. That seems to me to be very grievous and scandalous sin.
Sad, 139
I did not add Alan R to the list as he was counseling me at the time he stepped down… there may be unknowns, as there often are, to these things, but from what he personally told me, he did not feel called and wanted to step down..
Nick 130
You can add Basel, Switzerland (Eric Tammaru)
and Margaret (Tomczak) and her husband, in the Philippeans.
5years: The only thing I can think of that a pastor should be “joining” is the Church of Jesus Christ and all allegiance should be to Him. The thought of “hired” pastors is totally foreign to the scriptures and is a fabrication of man to impose a heirarchial system on the church that has no business being there. As to where a pastor’s allegiance should lie, it’s is first and foremost to Jesus, and then to the sheep that the Lord has placed in his care. To put it in Jesus’ own words “The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep”. That means the welfare of the sheep is more important to the shepherd (excuse me, Pastor)is more important to him tham any allegiance to an institution or, in my owrds, the machine. Peter put it quite plainly when warned by the Sanhedrin not to preach further about Jesus. He said; “”We ought to obey God rather than men”.
For a shepherd to see the overwhelming evidence toward rampant abuse and decide for whatever reason to remain a part of such a system is to put the very sheep God has intrusted him with in jeopardy, both spiritually and mentally. At the first sign of impropriety the shepherd should start asking questions and expect straight answers. That not forthcoming, he should do the obvious. Remember, the safety of the flock is foremost for him. Or, it should be.
:beat
[Edited at commenter’s request]
#130 –
There was only one pastor from the South Denver Church that was removed, the second one is in place now.
Sad @139
:( :( This makes me very sad. Apparently, SGM is ignoring this fact.
CJ: “I coerced, not blackmailed.” = Clinton: “It depends on what your meaning of the word “is” is.”
Also, one Sr. Pastor (John Butler), was removed from 2 churches (VA Beach and Atlanta) was reinstated this year in Dayton. OH.
I wonder if SGM keeps a spreadsheet to keep up with all their additions and subtractions?
So the panel says it is okay for C.J. Mahaney to stay around as a pastor. You know,I was really hoping for a better outcome then this. I really wanted the truth to matter for once. I so much wanted to write C.J. a letter and ask him just to do the right thing and find a job in the secular world. He has brought much shame to the church of Jesus Christ. All these years he preached one thing and wound up doing the other. There is a name for that–hypocrite. I think he is just much too proud to get it.
I use to think some of the things that people talked about on here were petty. I am not talking about the cases of abuse that were brought up here. I use to wonder how something like that could ever happen at a SGM church. Now I guess we all know. I was also one of the arrogant ones when I heard of someone leaving to go to another church. How could you leave CLC. It is the best show in town. I even asked my coworker that when he went to a perfectly fine church around the corner from CLC.
I hope and pray that the pastors do the right thing.
Lover of CLC: You said it all. The best SHOW in town.
From CLC: I always wondered…why did Roger Dillon (CJ’s bro in law) “step down” (this was waaaay back) Was he the first “shanking”? Then there was Chuck Thompson? (No one ever said why…)
:beat
http://online.worldmag.com/2012/01/26/c-j-mahaney-reinstated-at-sovereign-grace/
Just another news article about this situation…pardon if it was already posted.