The Authority Of Leaders
February 9, 2012 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
A couple of days ago, a reader (“Local Church Fan”) posted a comment that discussed the need to trust our God-ordained leaders and know that if they are men of integrity, and God is indeed sovereign, we don’t need to concern ourselves with their decisions.
LCF’s comment provoked a considerable amount of discussion, as you might imagine. One of the things it brought to my mind is a question I’ve had for as long as I’ve understood the way that Sovereign Grace Ministries operates, and what Sovereign Grace Ministries believes and teaches about the authority of its leaders and pastors. And that question is this:
How do we know a particular leader (or group of leaders) is God’s ordained authority over us?
Or, to put it another way,
Where does a leader’s authority come from?
As I thought about this yesterday, I wrote the following comment. It’s not very well-organized, but I was thinking it might be interesting for discussion purposes. Here it is:
——————————-
You know, the whole “Trust God by trusting your leaders” admonition is worthy of more analysis.
The truth is that ultimately, in the modern Western world that we live in, we are the ones tasked with choosing our own leaders. Unless one is Roman Catholic, it’s not like “the church” is this monolithic entity ordained by God from the time of our birth until our death. The reality is that in our mobile society, there are all sorts of situations that require us to go out and select a new church from a myriad of Bible-believing, gospel-proclaiming options that are all “doing church right” to one degree or another. (Unless, of course, we harbor a secret belief that our own particular church is the only one that gets it exactly right. But that sort of belief would reveal an exclusionary, cultic mindset, so let’s assume that nobody secretly feels that way.)
We can look to the Bible to show us some basic principles. But Christians in the Bible were Christians in a different era, when there weren’t a dozen (or a hundred, or a thousand) choices. It’s different now. The Apostle Paul did not show up in my city (or yours) and evangelize and start a church…which is then THE church, the only option.
When you get right down to it, YOU make the choice about where you place your membership. And, contrary to how Josh Harris would like to portray things (in his Stop Dating The Church book), becoming a member of a particular church is NOT on par with getting married. There’s nothing in the Bible that portrays church membership as it exists today, in our 21st-century world, as a lifelong commitment akin to the marriage commitment, where we are somehow commanded to stick around “in sickness and in health,” through dysfunction or abuse.
Sure, there are those who believe that “God called them” to one church or another. But that’s highly subjective. People sense all the time that “God is calling them” to all sorts of things, and sometimes their “sensors” are not accurate – sometimes it’s NOT God. And of course, if you put enough stock into your sensors that you feel comfortable saying “God called” you to a particular church, you are almost forced to acknowledge that there can be occasions where God might be calling you somewhere else.
So ultimately, what church we end up in still boils down to subjectivity and personal preferences…AND, we have to say that there is nothing in the Bible that would demand that we remain at a church no matter what the leaders do and no matter what course the church takes.
(I mean, I think even CJ Mahaney himself would have to agree with that statement. Otherwise, he would have been in sin for leaving his Roman Catholic upbringing to start his own thing…and the entire premise of what eventually became SGM would be wrong. And, he’d be wrong now for running away from Covenant Life Church and joining up with Capitol Hill Baptist during his “season of reflection.”)
So, after certain doctrinal considerations, our church commitment is one that we control. We are in charge of where we park our loyalties. And there are no direct instructions in the Bible that demand that we remain loyal to a particular church no matter what happens or what the church’s leaders do.
Connected with this, of course, is the question of where pastors – particularly SGM pastors, since the SGM system provides no formal accountability to the congregation – obtain THEIR authority. Within SGM, although it’s not discussed in so many words, the assumption has been that authority is conferred upon pastors by other pastors above them in the leadership pyramid. This leadership pyramid goes all the way up to where CJ resides at the top.
I think a lot of SGMers assumed, without actually thinking about it in so many words, that CJ’s authority was bestowed upon him by God Himself through the Charismatic/Pentecostal concept of “anointing,” which works out to mean something like the guy was a dynamic speaker whom people wanted to follow…a guy who made them feel like he was God’s ordained leader over them.
So in SGM, you have these guys who expect to be regarded and trusted as God’s ordained authorities…but the reality is that their authority was ultimately bestowed upon them by a man who pretty much ordained himself, through his ability to attract followers…which in the end hinged upon decisions made by his followers.
I don’t feel like I’m laying this out as clearly and as logically as I’d like to, but what I’m trying to get at is that the admonition to “Trust your leaders, and thus demonstrate your trust in God” doesn’t actually have any real traction, because the reality is that anyone can be your leader, if YOU decide he is.
That’s how CJ obtained his authority and then went on to hand out authority to those whom he and his underlings believed should have it.
Additionally, your own obligation to SGM is NOT actually the same as your obligation to your husband or wife. The Bible never says that church membership is on par with the marriage relationship. To get to that place, one has to do a great deal of extrapolation.
So, it’s pretty weak to abdicate one’s responsibility to exercise discernment and ask questions of one’s leaders. One’s leaders are only one’s leaders because one has chosen them and one continues to choose to remain in that relationship with them.
One could just as easily take one’s church membership elsewhere…and not necessarily be out of God’s will or be sinning. There’s nothing actually keeping or holding you to a place or to a group of leaders, if those leaders are not proving worthy of your trust.
In the end, the responsibility of who (and what) your leaders are is – YOURS.
——————————-
A little later, I added the following:
And, what’s so fascinating to me in all of this is that the concept of the priesthood of all believers, and the notion that ordinary members have the right and the responsiblity to discern truth for themselves and have a say in what their leaders do – well, that’s one of the foundational principles of the Reformation.
Isn’t it crazy that the guys who claim to be Reformed are now wanting to take on the very kind of unquestioned, unquestionable authority that the actual Reformers rejected?
© 2012, Kris. All rights reserved.
I see I was a minute too late on that post. However, I was able see the mortgage payoff one, if that’s any consolation. Maybe that guy is on vacation and they couldn’t get him to take it down. :wink:
Magruder: Wow, just wow. They are, as Jesus said “a brood of vipers” I just call them “a bunch of snakes”! (gives me the woolies!!) If they have nothing to hide…why hide it? Aren’t they proud of their past?
@MagruderHighDays Are you serious? who is the “they” that took it down?
Muckraker,
I didn’t mean to convey that I am condemning the idea that the Holy Spirit can lead someone to choose a particular church. I totally believe that He can (and does).
However, it’s been my experience that in a lot of these situations, it’s very easy for a person to confuse his own human inclinations – including feelings and other subjective stuff as silly as liking the decor of a particular church – for the Holy Spirit’s leading.
I mean, I think the Holy Spirit can sometimes use silly stuff like our personal inclinations and human preferences to lead us a particular way…but I would ascribe that more to the workings of God’s sovereignty and less to the dramatic “God told me” kind of thing that my extreme Charismatic friends say.
And, if God can lead us to a church, then God can also lead us away from that same church…right?
I’m not saying this very well, but – I didn’t mean to disparage anything Charismatic. It’s just that sometimes, “the Spirit” gets the credit (or the blame) for a lot of stuff that is actually more the result of how you felt after you ate too much pizza for dinner last night, or your own favorite color, or the way you prefer to interact with people. And sometimes being too quick to ascribe a particular feeling to “God is telling me” is a terrible way to end up in a mess that isn’t actually God’s will.
Have I clarified myself at all? (I’m not feeling like I have…but maybe someone out there knows what I’m trying to get at.)
I guess I mention “God’s leading” in a way that sounds negative because I have interacted with a LOT of SGMers who talk about believing that “God hasn’t yet told them to leave” or “God wants them to stay” or “God led us here.” I would NEVER argue with them, but a lot of times it seems pretty clear to me that they feel compelled to stick around in part because of reasons that have little to do with God and everything to do with their own comfort zone.
That’s why I have a hard time with using “God led me to this church” as a hard-and-fast reason why a person needs to feel forced to “stay married” to that church even when the leadership is clearly going in a wrong direction.
Why would they not want the whole world to see those videos if they think CJ is so wonderful and what they were doing was good and pleasing to the Lord? Are they ashamed? If so, why?
the person who had uploaded the videos is a big admirer and fan of CJ, no doubt he was contacted by someone in his camp and it went private. But too late, I was able to download it. I will upload this evening for your viewing please (more like displeasure after watching its sickening man glorification)
Those videos where gone the second i refreshed my page after i wrote my post lol!!!!
Proving the point Guy made about a year ago. They must have hired someone to keep a watch on this site full time lol.
Magruder said,
Wow. That’s pretty creepy. I still have the video up and loaded on my computer and can watch it.
Don’t these people know that trying to “cleanse” this stuff off the internet is precisely why this site was started? And also, that it’s a total sign that SGM is aware of how kooky they looked, worshipping CJ while barely giving “the Savior” a couple of shout-outs?
That video was only made in, what, 2006? Five or six years ago at most?
What’s especially weird is to watch Brent Detwiler pay homage during his time of tribute. There are some turns of phrase in Brent’s segment that make me wonder if he was trying to be a bit ironic even back then. If he was not, then it’s really a testament to the sort of spell CJ was able to cast upon his underlings.
@Mommy2boo
Only the 2 hour worship fest of CJ video was removed
Also in the video, there is a 4 minute (Prophetic song) by Bob Kauflin honoring CJ at the end where- I kid you not- Kauflin repeatedly sings “you led us to the cross” referring to CJ, over and over again
See, this is the kind of garbage I’m talking about. I have beaten this horse many MANY times, but probably my #1 problem with SGM is that the organization has such a problem with acknowledging its missteps and flaws and taking the appropriate public steps to correct them.
OK, so they put together a 2-hour (more than 2-hour) long program back in 2006 to worship CJ. And OK, the whole thing looks ridiculous and is hugely embarrassing to them now. They may even be sorry for some of the nuances – like being seemingly unable to say the name of Jesus.
Rather than make these swift moves to remove the embarrassing video of the embarrassing CJ worship, why not just own their foolish idolatry, and repent of it openly and publicly?
They ought to say something like, “Look, people – that time we wrote and choreographed a Broadway-style number to sing CJ’s praises? And then went on for more than 2 hours about how perfect he is? Well, we’re ashamed of that now. We were giving glory to a mere man that belonged to Jesus, and we’re sorry. And see? We’re even being more careful about saying “the Savior’s” name now. Please follow our example. If you are inclined to salivate over CJ’s wonders and excuse his faults, please stop. Instead, use that energy to pray and glorify God.”
But nope. Instead the video becomes available only to people who are given a password.
Hilarious.
They are condemned by their own shame.
Kris –
I just boarded my plane so I don’t have much time. I do look forward to discussing this topic in the near future. I may even be able to us the wifi on the plane.
I did quickly want to mention that I think that the following statement in the first paragraph of this post is not an accurate reflection of my post: “we don’t need to concern ourselves with their decisions.”. It may be helpful to include my post in your post so that the readers can see what it is that I said.
I am very interested and concerned in the decisions that leaders make. This is true in different institutions, not just the church. My comment was meant to begin to address how to handle when leaders make a decision that we may not agree with. I look forward to discussing this more.
This is why i have to quit following this web site from time to time.
I feel like the donkey :beat
It is so sickening……
Muckraker #12 –
“He would contrast this story of “how they felt the leading of the Holy Spirit to start CLC” by putting down other men who “thought” they heard God but were really just starting a ministry for their own glory–never any specifics on who he was talking about–but those in the congregation knew it meant any men with ministries in their own names”
Thanks for this piece of history. To me, the “putting down” of others part appears filled with divisive pride. There were many times during a church meeting that other churches were “put down” from the pulpit at my SG church and it was wrong; the implication was clear to me…SG was doing “it” better…whatever “it” was that day. It was one of the reasons that I could no longer sit in the pews and be a part of it and so I finally left.
For me, the underlying sin issue of SG will always be their divisive pride. It’s sad that the whole movement could have started with such divisively prideful thinking. My sense is that when SG Ministries comes to an end it will be because of the destruction that their divisive pride will bring upon themselves. They will end up destoying themselves; and they are doing a pretty good job of it already.
Kris,
Fastforward to 1:51:40 if you still have it open and watch Bob Kauflin’s song to CJ…it’s pretty disturbing
Oh yes, Bob’s “prophetic songs.” Didn’t Musicman disclose long ago that there was frequently prior discussion between CJ and Bob about what topics were going to be covered in those supposedly off-the-cuff, Spirit-led prophetic songs? (Am I making that up? I’m going WAY back on that one. Musicman?) If so, would love to have been a fly on the wall during the discussion about the CJ song! “Yes, okay, and then if you could just work something in about my Cross-Centered Life Book…about how I’m the one who’s keeping the Main Thing the Main Thing…that would be great. Mkay?” How do people not see through this stuff? The emperor isn’t wearing any clothes, people, no matter what he and his yes-men say! Just acknowledge what’s right there in front of your eyes! No, it’s not NOT believing the best. You led us to the cross?? Seriously?? Why did no one have the nerve to stand up and say, “Um, Bob…that’s going a little too far, don’t you think?”
ok here is Bob Kauflin’s little diddy he wrote in worship of CJ…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ayGCk2V_mY
Okay, in watching that, it does appear to be more something he prepared in advance and less of a “prophetic” song. But I loved the things like “How could we ever thank you?” and “You’ve built a firm foundation for future generations…” No, not Jesus. Not the Holy Spirit. You, CJ. You. I mean, I can see writing a thank-you note to someone who has impacted your life. But to write (and to allow someone to perform) an entire song about it, it’s just so over the top. And par for the course.
And now I must care for my Boos. Hope it doesn’t take two more years for me to have time to post again. :)
LCF –
Perhaps “don’t need to concern ourselves” is the wrong terminology, but the overall feeling I took away from your comment was that your friend was challenging you at some point to trust God to work through your leaders, no matter what you personally thought of their decisions – that if your leaders are trustworthy, godly men, then it’ll all work out in the end.
B.R. Clifton #34: thanks for the kind words! :D
Well – Bob K actually said “Jesus,” once –
“Our lives are more like Jesus because we followed you.”
But, ugh. Nonetheless.
Honestly, this reminds me of a Bette Midler love song. A romantic Bette Midler song. Listen to it, and tell me if you can’t hear Bette singing it!!! :D :lol:
Kris – From a distance…. I totally agree. And I’m sorry about my last post. It was a bit of a rant to it that doesn’t really contribute much to the conversation. It would be nice to think that that was then and this is now and it’s not like that anymore. But the panel’s findings suggest otherwise. Still singing the same old songs. That’s okay, though, because remember…God is watching us, God is watching us…and he’s not so distant.
Just me #45
I would echo your endorsement of Derwood Bible Church. I spent many happy years in Precept Bible studies with their women, until I became overwhelmed with caring with two boys born close together. (study homework 1hr./day – couldn’t keep up.) My next interaction with Derwood came after my oldest son experienced several years of bullying at CLC’s school, and I decided to homeschool him. The majority of his outside classes for his last 4 years were at Chieftain, Derwood’s classes for homeschooled children. He told me at one point he didn’t want to go back to CLS because he felt like a “normal kid” at Chieftain. (Being normal=happiness for him) I’ve witnessed also with my youngest boy, that the children at Derwood are very kind and accepting- even though my youngest is somewhat socially inept.
In my interview with AOR, I verbalized the differences I and my children have experienced between CLC and Derwood. Why am I still at CLC? Good question, but the answer is complex, and at this point subject to SGM and CLC’s responses to AOR’s report.
Excellent. Smart work. Now to watch the youtube.
MagruderHighDays,
You said …
“Also in the video, there is a 4 minute (Prophetic song) by Bob Kauflin honoring CJ at the end where- I kid you not- Kauflin repeatedly sings “you led us to the cross” referring to CJ, over and over again”
Two items:
1) FACT: Those “prophetic” songs Kauflin always did were primarily talked about well before the meetings took place. Kauflin had plenty of time to write and think about “prophecy”. I was there many times when CJ would say “Bob … I feel like the Lord gave me a word that you have a prophetic song about “X”.” Then all were amazed at how incredible Bob and CJ worked together …
I actually was THERE the time when Mahaney had Kauflin do a prophetic song on men who wore hairpieces! I kid you not!!!
2) How “prophetic” is a song from the Holy Spirit that brngs glory to CJ??? God is bringing judgement to these clowns!!!
What’s with trying to hide material that’s aleady in the public domain? For example, C.J. Mahaney’s infamous “pastor athlete” video is now only available to authorized folks through the SGM site:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/2009/10/09/cj-mahaney-office-sports.aspx
However, the rest of the world can still view it on You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RCStEsLPCw
Welcome, Bookhead! I remember when you visited me when you were on the Chuck’s team – and then I joined the team myself. I’m glad to know you talked with AOR.
Anne CLC 1986-2007
:new When looking at the Vimeo posting guides, it looks like SGM could have had Vimeo make the video private or take it down simply based on copyright law. There were images and music in there that the user would not have the right to, so the board may have been able to have Vimeo step in and do something.
Also possible that the user found out the link was posted here and didn’t want to be part of all of this and made it private on his/her own.
I don’t know how it happened, but jumping immediately to the board being involved, while tempting and in some ways fitting with past behavior, may not be right.
Re. the Kauflin song:
:barf:
:barf:
:barf:
I thought the irresistable grace of God (letter I of TULIP) led us to the cross, because of the unconditional election( U) of Almighty God. But no, it was CJ.
Honestly, I think all these guys are slightly gay, emotionally, in a perverted sort of way. I mean, they love and desire their wives and sleep with them and not other men, but they seem to need a big strong daddy in a creepy kind of way. Maybe gay is the wrong word. Maybe little boys who need a father is more accurate. You tell me, what is it? Creepy for sure. Very sad, truly tragic. Does it explain the utter lack of regard for little girls who get molested? Or are they separate phenomena?
Good work MagruderHD.
Ugh.
Kris,
Excellent post, as usual. Submission to authority in the church setting is voluntary, unless you are part of the 9 Marks gang, apparently. There is a very interesting post on WW quoting Bobby Jamieson, who is an Assistant Editor at 9 Marks. Here is part of it – the entire text is on WW.
Here are Jamieson’s practical implications:
“1. The troubler of First Baptist Smallville needs to either reconcile with that church or join another one where he can be more content.
2. Churches’ membership procedures should reflect the fact that the church, not the individual member, has authority to accept and dismiss members.
3. Churches’ governing documents (constitution, by-laws) should reflect the fact that individual members do not have the unilateral right to terminate their membership.
4. The pastoral specifics of how churches handle individual resignations will vary.”
Jamieson ends his article — directed at church leaders — as follows:
“KEEP AN EYE ON THE BACK DOOR
So pastors, just as you pay careful attention to the front door of your church, keep a close eye on the back door, too. Make sure that the sheep can’t simply open the gate themselves and disappear from sight. Refuse to allow people to resign into thin air, both for the sake of your church’s witness to the gospel and for the good of every single sheep—especially those who tend to wander off.”
So (back to my comments – no longer quoting) certainly accepting members should be governed by an individual church’s membership procedures – no argument there. There is clear scripture about leaving a church while under church discipline. But if I decide that I should be elsewhere the idea that someone else has authority over that decision is totally unacceptable to me. If I have had trust in my pastor and came to think that I needed to seek fellowship elsewhere I would (and did) certainly have that discussion, but only to seek pastoral care and advice, not permission.
This skewed idea of pastoral authority has led to myriad excesses. Examples in my own former church include things like “don’t take that promotion because there is no SGM church in that city”, and “don’t let your kids go to that college because there is no SGM church in that city”, and on and on. To the credit of my former pastor, Gene Emerson, he saw the error of this and took the point to separate “principle from practice”. In my opinion this was much to his credit, but in so many cases so much damage was already done and due in large part to this twisted idea of the boundaries of “pastoral authority”.
I believe strongly in the scriptural teachings about pastoral authority and submission thereto. But, oh, what treacherous terrain. Discernment is so key – read the Bible, pray, and THINK. If you submit to a person and then realize that you were wrong, whether this is simply doctrinal disagreement or Jim Jones (intentionally extreme example), use your head and use the door knob.
Gay isn’t the right word … it’s that they absolutely must have the approval of other men.
Mahaney absolutely must have the adoration from other men.
It is all so man-based.
God will judge them. There is no doubt in my mind.
@5years… “Creepy” is a good word to describe the video. I felt like I was invading Bob and CJ’s privacy listening to it (before I turned it off). “Bob, could you maybe just sing that to CJ later when the two of you are alone?” :^)
It was always uncomfortable listening to Bob’s weird songs. They seem a magnitude more weird now that I’ve been away for a while. And I wonder, was I just pretending to take them seriously to impress others? Or trying really hard to convince myself I *should* take them seriously? Or did I really buy into them? I wish I knew…
Is it any wonder why C.J. Mahaney and others top leaders in SGM have such large egos if they are worshiped like people are indicating. As Larry Tomczak said in his statement:
Why is SGM wanting to hide the sin of their past mistakes? As is says in Proverbs he who hides his sin won’t prosper but if you confess and forsake then you will you will.
Mommy2Boo #65:
That sort ofthing was not uncommon in the SGM Borg. Back a few years at FCC (before it was called FCC) we had a visiting speaker from a Sattelite PDI fellowship. One of the high up big dogs from PDI was also there. I was standing in the hallway before entering the auditorium when they walked up near me and began to talk. The visiting guy asked the high upper what he should talk about that day. The high upper mage a suggestion based on what he saw as a current issue there. Whe it came time for the sermon this guy got up and began his introduction by explaining how God had just laid this message on his heart specifically for FCC that day. Made my want to puke! :barf: That destroyed any respect I had for said visiting speaker and for the high upper.
:beat
What is the clear scripture about leaving a church while under discipline?
The word pastor is mentioned one time in the New Testament. What are the “scriptural teachings about pastoral authority and submission”? I do not see it in Ephesians 4:11 where pastor is mentioned. Paul does not go on to explain that since the Lord gave us pastors, we are to appreciate His gift by obeying and submitting to these men.
Jesus “has made us a kingdom of priests to his God and Father” (Rev. 1:6).
I know, I am pushing hard on this point.
Just for clarification the bottom block of what I just posted were my words. The block above the bottom one is part of the statement Doris and Larry released last week.
Griefofwisdom –
“t was always uncomfortable listening to Bob’s weird songs. They seem a magnitude more weird now that I’ve been away for a while. And I wonder, was I just pretending to take them seriously to impress others? Or trying really hard to convince myself I *should* take them seriously? Or did I really buy into them? I wish I knew…
I understand your thinking. I too had bought them hook, line & sinker. That is until I heard a few of them. They always had similar harmonic progressions and similar melodies. I wonder if he realizes he mostly sings prophetic songs in 4/4 time with similar song structures?
When listening to the BK song and watching CJ on one if the videos, I’m reminded how much emotionalism (appealing to ones emotions) seems to be weaved into preaching and song presentation with CJ and Bob. It just seems that they are trying to evoke a certain response by playing to the emotions of people. This always leaves one feeling as if they are being manipulated. Maybe it’s just me? I find that I wouldn’t believe that the HS was actually at work because the LEADERS are trying so hard to get a response.
Kris: No prob. on the charisma thing. Yep, God is blamed for a lot of crazy crap!!
Mommy2Boo @65 I never heard this before and I am literally sick to my stomach. Here is the original comment reposted in Jan. now re-reposted:
I was there for many of these songs–and yes, it was marketed/presented as a true prophetic song created on-the-spot via a gift of the Holy Spirit. All I can say is, that God will not be mocked. To present yourself as speaking/prophesying/singing from the Holy Spirit and yet it is contrived? That is wickedness.
Maybe someone should put together a DVD that shows all of this hero worship on these online videos and send them to the leaders that still endorse Mahaney and SGM. Maybe this would give them a new perspective seeing this sad hero worship. Maybe this would make them wake up.
I remember the late Keith Green chastising (almost to the point of rudeness) believers that would do hero worship of him or other Christian musicians. It is so sad that leader in SGM, especially Mahaney, didn’t put a stop to hero worship like they should have.
I need a quick reminder…
What was it called when you used a word or phrase as a tool to shut down conversation or resistance? (Like SGM uses Slander) It was a psychological term and I cant recall. Something like cognitive distortion but it was that…
intheNick
Do you mean cognitive dissonance?
It means something else than what you are talking about.
It just seems that they are trying to evoke a certain response by playing to the emotions of people. This always leaves one feeling as if they are being manipulated. Maybe it’s just me?
@Bridget: It is definitely emotionalism, and not just you. And while there is a time and place for evoking people’s emotions, there is great potential for abusing it. I get especially concerned when emotions are evoked when people are being faced with making important decisions, say, a special offering to SGM with soft music and a soothing speaker, or an altar call. Not that these decisions should only be cold and calculatingly rational, but I think the danger of abusing the emotional pull in these moments is very serious.
Bridget, oh no. It’s not just you. It’s why I left, actually. Everything, from the little “this is the part of the Full House episode where you learn the lesson” background music at the end of a sermon to the physical posture of the worship team on the stage, is contrived to make people FEEL something. On the worship team, we used to PRACTICE “prophetic” singing. Like, you know those parts where the instruments would quiet a bit and one of the vocalists would seemingly be inspired to sing a verse or two about God’s faithfulness? Yes, well the part about God’s goodness and faithfulness was true, and maybe (MAYBE) that person wasn’t asked to come up with something beforehand. But know that at worship practice earlier in the week, they probably practiced “prophetic” singing in hopes that someone would bust out with one in the coming Sunday’s meeting. It started making me sick. Emotionalism is exactly what SGM is all about. Any random five minutes of a sermon by CJ is exhibit A.
Bob was definitely reading the words for this one, and that’s ok, so he wrote the song earlier, no big deal – and i haven’t seen what led up to the song, did anyone say “Bob i think the lord is putting a song on your heart for CJ?” I am guess not in this case….
But…. now i want to watch some of those prophetic songs from Celebration to see if there is evidence of reading off of the music stand. Just curious… but i do remember him usually having his eyes closed during those songs…
@ Luna,
I think the real question is what constitutes being disciplined?
I’ve been pondering that question, thinking back to the many times i was disciplined. Who has the right to discipline and de-gift a individual. I know the right answer but im trying to get to the root of the issue.
hypothetical hypocrisy in sgm
If Sue repeats something she heard about Tammy the pastors wife then she is disciplined. If Tammy tells her Homeschooler group something she heard about sue and asks that the group pray for poor sue in her trying time of need then she is praised for her tremendous gifts of caring for a fellow mother in need. Even thought Sue wasn’t there at the time of course. And Tammy wasn’t really doing it out of caring just wanting to spread the gossip she and her children heard at the dinner table. After her husband complained about Sue and Her husbands complete lack of taking his discipline regarding their 14 year old son who happend to mention his liking of a young church girl.
Laugh go ahead its funny but this is life in a SGM church most churches in fact. The only difference is what happens next. (read the 40 or more stories on this blog to find out what happens next)
My whole point in this little story is this, while church discipline is used in SGM to keep the flock in line it doesn’t seem to apply to the very ones dealing out the discipline. I am a parent, I try to make good choices but i fail (miserably at times) but i always try to make good.
I see no effort here on SGM part to make good. Should C.J. or any other pastor come to everyone they ever slighted and apologize of course not.
But first they would have to understand what they are apologizing about, That’s the key and they are confused because they have no clue what the heck we are talking about. In order for SGM to see what we see in themselves they would have to walk in our shoes. In order to do that they would have to bring themselves out of the clouds and down to the level of a lay person. Which they have no idea how to do because most of them the upper echelon have never been in a lay persons role.
They have it all setup so brilliantly, Really if you stand back and look at them its amazing. I know im beating a dead horse and im writing this post to clear my head more then anything after watching bob worship C.J. I guess that’s why so many older pastors hate contemporary worship music. That’s why i say its so brilliant, they have it set up so perfectly. They only thing C.J. and co didn’t count on was this BLOG ha ha ha!!! I really think that they think that we will give up and move on. Keep waiting and dreaming.
@More Questions:
I agree. Vimeo has a reputation for being uninterested in mediating “Fair Use” vs. “You Stole My Stuff” disputes. They just delete the material in question. By contrast, You Tube/Google spends more time investigating the issue and will probably require the party alleging infringement to file a formal DMCA complaint that typically means (don’t quote me as I’m doing this from memory) that the content in question stays up unless the complaining party says it will file a lawsuit within 14 days and/or sign a waiver, under penalty of perjury, saying that it believes true infringement has occurred.
Sorry to reference Wikipedia but the DMCA itself is pretty hard to read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act
SGM doesn’t seem to understand that it can’t really suppress material in a global world, and trying to do so will only bring more attention to it in the long-term.
The entire Kauflin song is dark and defiling, because of its subject matter, but even if that, somehow impossibly, were not the case, this is far worse: Kauflin employed the identifiable genre of worship music to God (chords, melodies, word choices, personal style) without the slightest alteration, except that it was offered to C.J. Mahaney, instead of Jesus of Nazareth. But, then, C.J. led us to the cross, right?
I am not sure I can find English-language words suitable for describing the vileness of this in the sight of Almighty God.
I neglected to mention that this worship song by Kauflin was immediately preceded by a specific prayer to God to prepare, spiritually, for Kauflin’s confession of worship. Astonishing, and I’ve seen everything. But never this.
Reading through the posts on this thread. 5 Years, your number 19 was incredible.
Steve, that’s not the one…
It was a name for using a term to shut down a discussion or stop a criticism.
Like Melinger telling the CovFel folks that any questions or comments about CJ and SGM are not “charitable judgments”. Jared would schedule a meeting with you about your concerns about SGM and would start the meeting with “please share with me you charitable judgements of SGM.” That kind of shuts you down instantly.
They say that any discussion of Detwiler is Gossip and slander. So unless you want to be guilty of gossip and slander you dont mention that name.
Someone here mentioned techniques that abusive churches and cults use to shut down disagreement or interest in a subject that they dont want looked at. There is a word for it, and we discussed it here…I just cant find it when I went back through the threads. I was hoping some with a memory could recall the term for me.
I have a meeting with my pastors and I want to discuss this very thing with them and hope to ascertain if they will be using this technique in the same way Melinger spewed all over the folks at CovFel last Sunday. (He told them if they dont use charitable judgements, and speak in love which believes ALL THINGS, and endures ALL THINGS [emphasis is his] then they are exercising critical judgements and that is sin.
There is a word for that technique. Charitable judgement, pride, serve, honor, are just a few of the words SGM uses to shut people down. What is the technical name of the technique?