Some Interesting Videos
February 10, 2012 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
There are some interesting Sovereign Grace Ministries videos floating around out there in cyberspace. The following is from Covenant Life Church’s 2004 “Milestone Weekend,” a celebration of C.J. Mahaney as he bestowed the job of senior pastor upon Joshua Harris:
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im_cwlWqOd4
The same evening, Bob Kauflin performed a very special song for his dear friend:
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ayGCk2V_mY
Many thanks to reader and commenter MagruderHighDays for posting these! (Although the Youtube account says “SGM Survivors channel,” please note that this site, SGM Survivors, has no connection to that channel.)
© 2012, Kris. All rights reserved.
Back to my #46…
I don’t know, maybe I’m not giving CJ enough credit.
He has an eye for movements that are “profitably beneficial” in joining – first the “Jesus Movement,” and then the “Young, Restless, and Reformed Movement.”
CJ goes where the “action” is, even if it means using blackmail and deception to change course.
I just shake my head when I think of the mess within SGM.
What an entangled web they ALL have woven…
For a movement and group of men that purport to be so homophobic and “male chauvinistic” – that love song of Kauflin’s sure seems a bit “gay” doesn’t it?!
No offence intended to anyone … :D
I don’t know if people caught this but Jeff Pursewell makes a very controversial and untruthful statement in his speech to CJ:
He states: “no member of this church (CLC)doubts that you would rather preach at clc on a sunday morning than at the most influential christian venue…”
You can see him state that here (and cj is crying in this 30 seconds in or so): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9QTW5Z3nwE&feature=related
Someone sent Brent the link to the video of his own speech honoring CJ and asked him if he’d watched it recently. Here was Brent’s response (which Brent himself forwarded to me):
fyi: fastforward to the 5:30 mark to hear the section where Jeff P starts talking about cj’s loyalty to CLC and its the dearest place on earth to him. about 6:15 is where he states the quote i posted above
Funny, I went to several services at a Christian Reformed Church, which is as Calvinist/Reformed as Churches come, and noticed that people didn’t clap after someone sang a song…I don’t remember seeing any Broadway plays. The minister just moved on to the next part of the service without acknowledging a musical number even if it was something that you would intuitively clap for.
I asked why and was told that in the Reformed tradition, people don’t clap or express acclaim of any kind during a service because the person singing was singing for God, not the audience.
I think John Calvin would have looked at matters that way, too.
It sounds like SGM didn’t get that memo when they decided to call themselves Reformed.
“Another UK SGM Skeptic” said,
I totally know what you’re trying to say.
(And, before anyone gets fired up at me, let me say that I am NOT meaning this to disparage anyone who characterizes himself or herself as “gay.”)
There is just something really upside-down about a world where a guy who has so many of the characteristics associated with the stereotypical idea of a gay man has been able to make people believe he is actually the paragon of “biblical manhood” and driven by so much heterosexual passion for his wife that they’ve been known to be unable to make the drive from the airport to their home and instead have had to stop off a a hotel along the way so they could get busy right away.
CJ is effeminate in his gestures, mannerisms, and vocal inflections. Yet somehow he was able to become the spokesmodel for “Biblical Manhood”?
(Again, this is NOT to say that all gay men are effeminate, or that all effeminate men are gay, or any of those things. It’s not even to criticize effeminate mannerisms or imply that CJ needed to change himself. Rather, it’s to point out – yet again – the stark difference between CJ’s words and objective reality.)
BTW, Somebody should forward this slideshow to Brent as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHZDYq04gjc&list=PL55095745385CAF54&index=19&feature=plpp_video
A bit awkward I must say
In case anyone missed my #55, Brent actually responded to someone who sent him the link of his speech and asked him if he’d seen it lately.
I thought it was interesting that Brent mentions that CJ and Carolyn were so mad at him…and that Carolyn wouldn’t speak to him.
I must say though Brent’s got some style rocking the Hawaiian Shirt @ 3:11 in the slideshow
@ Kris
well at least he acknowledged it was wrong of him to cross the line and flatter. Good for him
@ MagruderHighDays #54… I was watching that video and BAM BAM, my head EXPLODED!!! PLEASE NO MORE VIDEOS!!!! ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!! Where is my tin foil hat?
I couldn’t make up anything as bizarre as this whole SGM mess. How did this crazy train persuade anyone in the reformed community that they were reformed?
What’s up with JP in this video saying that he has learned more from CJ than anyone else? For an organization priding itself on humility (ironic ain’t it?) there is a lot of idolatry going on. I must be a masochist to watch this stuff. :bang :barf:
:bang :bang :bang :bang
I have to say that by itself the “you’ve been a friend” video is kind of cute–
though on the other hand I remember how it seemed the pastors always wanted to kind of show off their camaraderie in front of us, and it never sat well with me. Probably because I wanted OUT of there so bad, and I was in no mood to see how much these guys liked each other. Yay. I don’t matter, why can’t I leave?
Must have been a stressful time for Brent, making a glowing speech when the reality he knew was so different and he knew CJ and Carolyn were mad at him. Keeping up an outer appearance is hard.
The T4G advertisement with the (a la Brady Bunch) panels of CJ, Duncan, Mohler and Dever was most painful to me of all these revealing videos.
Even in this ad, CJ is drawing attention to himself in a completely foolish way and it’s encouraged by the others.
It speaks of the future( April) wherein CJ will be on a panel discussing the ” Celebrity Pastor” and will likely speak about the “slander” and will be lauded for his humility in his trial of dealing with all the misrepresentations. He will cry and whisper that the most painful part was what his family suffered, not him.
The Emperor has no clothes, but onlookers are clapping and nodding their heads.
I just feel sad at all the hypocrisy and deception. I thought so much more of these other guys. What more needs to be revealed that one would pull out?
I don’t get why CJ and Carolyn were angry with Brent. Did he mean that CJ and Carolyn were angry at him at the time he spoke or now? If at the time he spoke, why wasn’t Brent honest with the crowd and why didn’t he warn them? Did he not love them enough to do so?
Stunned,
I have emailed Brent, asking him to elaborate a bit more on the “CJ and Carolyn were so mad at me” piece. I also asked him for his thoughts on the dynamic of the group, where it was possible for “men of integrity” to be so inconsistent, to where their public comments were at such variance with what was going on behind the scenes.
If Brent gives me permission to do so, I will post his response here.
The woman who composed lyrics for the songs in the anniversary skits, was a member of Carolyn’s personal ‘core team’. I don’t know if many were aware of her little team but, she met with them for years; since the 80’s.
It was a private assembly of women who served Carolyn in special ways, sort of like handmaidens for a queen. (Shannon might even have a similar group). I knew the identity of at least three members of the team but they always kept very mum about it. That was likely a requirement of membership.
Those sacrificial women helped Carolyn throw weddings for her daughters, write skits and perform at women’s conferences, served her at many Valentine banquets, and other events and some of them babysat the Mahaney kids in the early years. I’m sure their ability to keep a secret really came in handy the year Janelle wanted help putting on a ‘surprise wedding.’
As far as I know, they continue to be Mahaney loyalists. I really don’t think they would repent of their involvement in the event, as Brent has done.
Stunned –
I think at the time of this event, Brent was still in the process of going to his brother in private. I find it interesting that CJ and Carolyn were both so made at him, though. No humility? No self-examination? A wife that sees none of the issues? Just anger and offense? And Brent is the one that would have been conflicted at this time about giving such a speech . . . something is amiss. Maybe they didn’t want their life plans messed up? All I know is when my life plans get messed up – it’s the time when God speeks the most into my life. Maybe that’s just me :scratch
If I were to guess, I’d say that Brent was still at a place, back in 2004, where he had too much to lose to risk making waves. I think that SGM’s leadership culture has always been such that total conformity was expected…and where one’s continued “giftedness” hinged on one’s continued willingness to grovel in front of one’s outranking leaders.
It pretty much didn’t matter what they were REALLY thinking – to keep their jobs and their own influence and positions of authority, the leaders of SGM basically HAD to affirm CJ in unqualified, unanimous ways, to where not a hint of dissent or disagreement could be detected by their listeners.
Persona said,
A “surprise wedding”?
What was that?
I can imagine (and this does not mean I condone it) how some may “perform” despite the ‘goings on behind the scenes’ in hopes of resolution, even though hope of resolution could be waning.. I think strength and integrity would have you stand up and say, “I can’t do this in light of what is going on”, but it seems that would be “immediate death”, so to speak. I do understand how hard it would be, to take a stand that will cost you your job, and is against what everyone else is saying! Now, a man who has the strength to do that-to take a stand even before he is “de-gifted”, to speak what is right and true, and walk away-that would be a true leader, I think!
I’m glad the bathroom is close by ’cause I’m gonna HUUURRRRLLLLL!!!!!
Janelle is a playful gal. She always had a fantasy of having a ‘surprise’ wedding where it would be announced at church on a Sunday morning and, the wedding would happen that day. Thus, the guest would all be surprised.
Anyway, that is what they did. While members were worshiping in the sanctuary, the other side of the building was secretly being decked-out in a carnival theme, complete with clowns and rides and games for kids and candy.
So, at the end of the meeting, they announced Janelle and Mike would be married that afternoon and everyone was invited. Before the wedding there was a video showing how they got engaged and how the scheme was hatched to throw a ‘surprise’ wedding.
And the bride and groom went off on their honeymoon and then, I believe, they just as secretly, moved right back into her old bedroom at the Mahaneys until they could afford otherwise.
In #63, Alex Houston said,
SGM has very diligently worked to hide (or disguise) the parts of its past that would not play well out in the real Reformed world. That’s why these videos keep disappearing once negative attention is drawn to them. That’s why SGM quietly changed the name of its “Apostolic Team” to (I think) the “Leadership Team.” That’s why speaking in tongues almost never happens at SGM churches. That’s why SGM has redefined the word “elder” to almost always mean “paid staff pastor” or “pastor-selected yes-man” rather than the traditionally accepted “congregationally nominated and elected representative.” That’s why SGM works to downplay or outright deny its connections to the 1970s Shepherding Movement.
That’s why a LOT of SGM’s early history has been buried or rewritten…
And that’s why I think it’s completely logical to be cynical about anything else that SGM supposedly changes in response to criticism – if the changes are NOT accompanied by express and public disavowals of the old teaching or practice.
SGM is like the Mormon church in the way it does things out of pragmatism rather than idealism. It’s not like the thinking changes and then the teaching/practice changes. Rather, SGM realizes how lame or stupid or downright wrong a teaching/practice looks and backs away from it for PR purposes, so they don’t lose credibility in the sight of their Reformed Big Dog idols.
In the case of Brent’s “performance”, sometimes people just “keep on keepin’ on” because they hope that things will change, and they think that in the long run they can be a part of the solution. My guess is that Brent really cared and thought the ship would turn. We will never understand it all. This is sad on so many levels.
A Kindred Spirit — #48 — I read your comment over breakfast in none other than, yes, you guessed it — NMB. Come on down, and bring the fishnets, and I’m not talking about the ocean kind. God creates kindred spirits in mysterious ways!
Persona,
Thanks for the explanation of the surprise wedding.
I guess there’s nothing “wrong” with that…
But it does seem like a symptom of the favoritism shown to the Mahaney family and the privileges they enjoyed that would never have been available to average members.
Like, just recently, “glad I’m out” posted the following:
A normal average member couldn’t even get her engagement announcement put into the next Sunday’s meeting…but a Mahaney daughter could have a “surprise” carnival-style wedding held immediately after church, preceded by a special video announcement shown during the meeting?
Ordinations were kind of like this too…I remember when Dave Harvey and CFC ordained Andy Farmer. He was on stage a lot, lots of dedications read from letters solicited by the church staff. At one point Andy was brought on stage and sat in a chair while much of this went on. I remember feeling like he looked like a King about to be anointed. Anyway, I was playing in the worship band that day and I remember feeling oddly emotional about Andy and his calling…but I was drinking the Kool aid back then…I’m kind of glad no one seems to have video from that day…
It is weird to stand years away from that moment and imagine how I could’ve been so sucked into it all…I feel for the folks of CLC :(
That slideshow contains several pictures embarrassing to SGM. One picture at 1:34 is the Pastors College class that included Josh Harris, CJ’s son-in-law Brian C. and a few current SGM pastors. It also included Kerrin R., several guys later declared to have “insufficient gifting” to pastor, and one former pastor removed for moral failure.
I can very much feel for the place that Brent must have been in during that time.
He had just dropped the bomb and shared his concerns for C J and yes, I really do believe he still did so out of love. He had been drinking the Kool-Aid like we all had, and probably really believed that his concerns would be accepted and taken on board.
That was EXACTLY my experience when I finally bit the bullet and admitted I had a serious problem with the senior pastor of Grace Church. I was asked why I didn’t “share earlier” my concerns and I stated that I had been trying for 2 years to draw closer to him and had suffered broken promise after broken promise. I stated I just didn’t trust him. What staggered me was that I had TOLD the care group leader my problems, and he advised me to “speak to the pastor about it”. When asked for “his observations on my critiques” – he bare-faced lied and said he had nothing to say.
So I can kinda understand Brent being stuck between a rock and a hard place. He desperately probably was hoping that C J would respond to his concerns and was faced with sheer venom from Mr and Mrs M. Especially Mrs M. I was watching her video, and we both noted – what a hard-faced woman. (I could be totally wrong).
Kris, I am not sure when the video was shown. Maybe someone else remembers that. It could have been at the end of the service or right before the actual wedding. But, they definitely took time at the meeting to invite everyone. And yes, I think the pastors are given a lot more advantages than common folk.
And LMAO with the “gay” comment!!
I thought exactly the same thing, when the “chords” struck up, and the soleful look on Bob Kauflin’s face!!
:goodpost
The actual times for the picture were 1:28 to 1:33
Hello all! I hope you don’t mind me jumping in here and posting. I’m of another Christian denomination – LDS – and have been an interested observer of Evangelical culture for many years. What’s going on in the SGM denom. is of particular interest to me and I see there many similarities with what’s worse about the LDS. Like witin and without SGM, there are many cries for reform with regards the LDS. And like SGM, many are fleeing our own movement.
As I observe the similarities between these two denomination I have one piece of advice for those “SGM’ers” either still on the fence or who are true believers in it…and I say it in the venacular… “Y’all better run!” Find a differnt church, and I know there are many fine alternative denominations within Evangelicalism. Just don’t lose your faith in Jesus Christ, even though your faith in your denomination is failing (and that’s a great thing)! Thanks for letting me pop in with a bit of my mind!
Nickname,
NO WAY…you’re at NMB?!! :o
I’m envious. Enjoy!
Moroni’s Promise –
Welcome. Thanks for the comment.
I have to caution you, though, that the majority of us here would not characterize Mormonism as just another Christian denomination. The LDS hold to different scriptures than traditional Christians, believe in an additional prophet, and hold to a completely different understanding of Jesus than the Jesus presented to us in the Bible. (For example, the Bible is quite clear that Jesus and satan are NOT brothers, both sons of the Heavenly Father.)
Most importantly, Christians and Mormons have dramatically different beliefs about the nature and Personhood of God, and how and what saves us from our sins and makes us right in God’s eyes.
That being said, I would agree with you that many aspects of the SGM story have interesting parallels to Mormonism. While what is wrong with SGM isn’t connected to doctrinal falsehoods, false prophets, or even a false understanding of the Bible, as is the case with Mormonism, SGM’s problems flow out of similar ideas about following one particular man…which led to similar authority structures…and similar beliefs about cultural homogeneity as a reflection of unity.
RE my #87 –
I should add that when I first saw the Broadway number and the Bob Kauflin song, I was immediately reminded of the Mormon hymn, “Praise To The Man.” You can read the lyrics of “Praise To The Man” here: http://truthandgrace.com/Praise.html
LOL at exCLCer’s response…. :clap
ATC, Bristol.
Before I forget, everyone – please be sure to post here if you see Diamond Dave or CJ in church tomorrow. Perhaps neither go to an SGM church any more. Does Dave to anything at his church nowadays?
I’m sorry, but I think the “surprise wedding” was over the top. And Carolyn’s little group of “handmaidens”…PUHLEEZE!
The sense of entitlement among this group is unbelievable.
Hi, Kris…thanks for the kind way you put that, and yes I understand your sentiments, and I struggle with the differences in our Church’s doctrine when compared with just the Bible taken as is, and with what other Christians have traditionally believed in ages past. But the cultural similarites between LDS and many fundamental Evangelical denoms. is striking…in fact, the LDS is really the architype of modern, popular, cult of personality, “practical” Evangelicalism.
And to add even more to my #87-88, I think SGM shares with Mormonism a keen ability to morph and change according to what will generate the greatest amount of acceptance among those whom they want to impress.
Moroni’s Promise –
I think there’s a distinction, a tremendous key distinction, between Mormonism and even the Evangelical church dominated by a particular pastor or leader. And that would be in what they teach about how one is saved and made right in God’s eyes.
Even the personality-driven Evangelical church will still teach that we are saved through the shed blood of Jesus, whose righteousness is then given to us by God in His grace.
Mormonism isn’t just enamored with Joseph Smith – Mormonism teaches that we are saved only through our full embrace of everything Joseph Smith and the subsequent prophets taught, including keeping ourselves righteous enough to participate in the temple rituals, without which a Mormon can only aspire to the middle (and not the highest) level of heaven.
Kris, that “truthandgrace” dot com is an interesting website… 8O
Luna,
Wasn’t advocating or endorsing the website – just thought people would be interested in reading the lyrics to a Mormon hymn that idolizes its founder in much the same way as CJ was idolized in the songs from the video.
Hello Moroni’s promise.
My heart was stirred for you in the hope that you might know the Lord Jesus Christ, be born again by the Holy Spirit, be filled with the Holy Spirit and be assured of your salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone!
I recently read a book published by a UK Christian organisation called ‘Reachout Trust’ which had many wonderful stories of Mormons (and Jehovah’s Witnesses) coming to know the Lord Jesus personally and becoming born-again Christians.
The website is http://www.reachouttrust.org/infoForMormons.php?page=1 and is, I hope you find, a loving and gracious attempt from Christians to dialogue and reason from the Scriptures with mormons.
May the Lord bless you,
ATC, Bristol, UK.
Making unkind remarks about Carolyn’s looks undermines the credibility of the more productive criticism on this site. I think we get more traction when our observations revolve around the cause and effect of SGM’s gross mismanagement and the board’s abuse of their positions.
Hi, ATC…I will gladly view that link…thanks!
“Sick with Worry” –
I just went through the last 40+ comments and found nothing that disparaged Carolyn’s appearance. In fact, I cannot recall ever, in the entire history of this site, where anyone has ever had an unkind thing to say about Carolyn’s looks. She is widely known as someone who always is very stylish and put-together.