Corporate Offices Of Sovereign Grace Ministries To Move To Kentucky?
February 28, 2012 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Word on the street seems to be that the new church C.J. Mahaney is planting will be located in Kentucky. Sovereign Grace Ministries’ offices are also going to be moved to Kentucky, from their current location in the Covenant Life Church building in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
Anyone want to ask his or her pastor to confirm or deny?
© 2012, Kris. All rights reserved.
I just heard from someone who said that he has already asked his pastor, and the pastor did confirm this development as true.
I’m still shaking my head over it, though.
If CJ’s departure from Maryland is such that the SGM corporate offices cannot function without his leadership nearby, to the point where offices have to be relocated and employees uprooted, then there must be very little distinction between the person of CJ Mahaney and the organization of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
All that chatter from people who try to say that their SGM churches are different and not that connected to CJ’s problems – I think this development provides yet another reason (the most dramatic one yet) to question why your (supposedly) non-CJ-affected church would want to remain controlled by an organization so tied to CJ that it has to move nearly 600 miles across state lines just because CJ moves.
Yeah…pretty ridiculous…
But…the good part is that with SGM out of the way, this will make things easy for CLC to leave SGM.
I’m still holding out hope….and in a couple generations, CLC will be just like any other mainstream church.
Sidney
To all my very close SGM employee friends.
Don’t go.
Businessmen of CLC – please hire these fine people.
@Kris
I think it the move has just as much to do with CJ moving as it does with the obvious differences of opinion between CLC and SGM. Not that that makes it better, it just spreads out the ridiculousness of it over two reasons instead of just one.
So is this to move by SB Seminary in Louisville?
So does the PC, Recording Studio, and all those nice people and their families need to move with CJ? I’m not talking about the apostles, but the rest of the SGM staff who have been a part if CLC
just as long or longer than they have been a part of SGM. It’s a lot to put people through just because CJ got some egg on his face, and wants to move the clubhouse to a new spot.
Kris –
My guess is that not all SGM pastors are being made aware if such moves.
I don’t know that all SGM pastors are aware that SGM has finalizes the membership agreement between SGM and its associated churches either. But according ti the SGM article posted over on Refuge, some churches are in agreement with this membership agreement. Seems like whole churches are being marginalized now.
Can someone explain to me why SGM or any of its emoloyees need to be in KY? CJ will not be the president and he has declined being a board member as has Purswell and Harvey.
From the last thread – Dever and 9Marks are hypocrits and seem to want like-minded men around them.
OK so still no big surprises :wink:
SO who is willing to speculate that with the move to KY will bring with it a name change ?
LOL
Let me guess… Somewhere near Louisville, right?
kaz #9 name change….slm – sovereign law ministries?
this move is a calculated one to align with the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary to accredited the Pastor’s college. rumor is that Jeff Pursewell may go on staff at SBTS. and it is specifically Louisville, Ky.
It seems pretty obvious what is going on here. CJ is simply trying to run from the problem instead of facing it directly and dealing with it biblically. He evidently thinks that by moving to KY that the problessms will go away. Unfortunately he’s wrong on that. God will see to it that the very problem he’s running from will be there waiting for him when he gets to wherever he’s going.
God leves him enough to want him to be cleansed of all this. If CJ is not willing to do this on his own, then God will take him to the woodshed for a “fatherly cleansing”. Be assurred that God does have a woodshed to which he takes unruly children for “corrective action”.
:beat
Let’s start watching the MRIS listings to see if people start putting their homes on the market. Also, churches need to pull out/reduce their support now so they don’t have to fund large relocation packages for SGM staff. This is coming mark my words.
ALL of this is happening because of one man’s sin and his refusal to acknowledge it. Brent exposing it was not the problem. It was CJ’s behavior, unchecked over the years of foolish man exalting, that has caused all this chaos and upheaval and pain.
It actually scares me a little to think the whole T4G thing is just to line peoples pockets.
That 50K personal donation of CJ years ago to SBC just sticks out to me like a bad sore thumb, people.
No idea if this is related or coincidental, but Nicole and Steve Whitacre (CJ and Carolyn’s oldest daughter and son-in-law) just moved to Louisville, KY. Steve will be attending Southern Baptist Theological Seminary…supposedly prior to planting a church. (This was posted on the GirlTalk blog a few months ago).
Kate,
That’s what I remember!!! You’re right…Whiteacres.
Sidney
@Kate #14 – I believe the other two SILS are also attending SBTS, albeit remotely.
As trainwrecks go, this one isn’t even interesting or entertaining. Just a big, long, slow grind down to utterly awful.
What a waste of time, talent and resources CJ turned out to be.
It’s a matter of time before SGM dissolves.
Well a few things come to my mind. (1) CLC and SGM are splitting and SGM has no choice but relocate, (2) CJ, though technically not in charge by then, can still oversee SGM if they go with him right? In an “unofficial” capacity of course!
SamMcGee…you are correct and both also finishing up an internship at Capitol Hill Baptist Church. One is finalizing the sale of their home and the other does not own a home (lived with the Mahaney’s).
Hey…if you haven’t seen it…take a look at the new SGM Board members that has been posted over at SGM Refuge :scratch :beat :bang :barf: :evil: :spin
Does anyone know if John MacArthur or John Piper ever weighed in on what C.J. Mahaney has done and his reinstatement? Someone asked about this on another blog.
Bridget said, “Can someone explain to me why SGM or any of its emoloyees need to be in KY? CJ will not be the president and he has declined being a board member as has Purswell and Harvey.”
Bridget, do you mean of the SGM board or another board?
Also, check out CJ’s post on the SGM website Blog. He looks to be very much in control of the Next Conference and is a speaker himself. Of course, Josh Harris the real founder of Next/New Attitude is not on the list.
Speaking of SBC I read that they were considering maybe dropping the “Southern” and just being “Baptist”
The more I think about this, the more amazing it is. Why is anyone even bothering with the silly charade of pretending that SGM-the-organization has some sort of authority and power over CJ? If this move comes to pass, doesn’t that basically prove who’s in the driver’s seat…and whose will and whims matter most…and who answers to whom?
Again, all the people who have clung to the belief that your local SGM church is able to keep its distance from CJ and his woes – think about it. The SGM organization is so enmeshed with CJ, and CJ is such a controlling force over the SGM organization, that the the man and the corporate entity cannot be geographically separated. WHY would any church that does not share and support CJ’s issues with unchecked authority want to continue to be part of an organization that is that indistinguishable from one particular man?
So is anyone thinking, “Poor Mohler. After what CJ has done to so many, Al needs to watch his back”?
Just now I received an email from someone who reminded me of the fact that in his address at the last Pastors’ Conference, CJ had indicated that he believed he was not gifted to be president of SGM but was instead more gifted as a pastor. The implication seemed to be that it was his intention to step down from the SGM presidency, regardless of what the panels/AOR would find.
So, did CJ not actually mean what he said in that speech last November? Is he actually gifted to lead the SGM organization? Here are CJ’s own words from the November 2011 Pastors’ Conference:
So, OK – if CJ meant what he said in the first portion of this segment of his speech, where he talks about how he has come to realize that he is “not gifted to lead the movement,” then why would CJ’s move to Kentucky necessitate the move of SGM’s corporate offices?
The problem of Gary –
I think the most emotional and volatile issue at CLC has been around that of Gary.
Thousands of members have read Ex-CLCer’s mom’s account of her husband’s molestation of her daughter, the counsel she received from pastors, the jail, the poverty, the breakdown, losing her nine children to the state. It is a horrible situation and she has kept it at the forefront of these dialogues day after day, inflaming many with anger towards Gary and John. Angry CLC members have harassed their children and forced Gary to leave in disgrace.
The problem is, and this is why so many people support the gossip and slander teaching, Gary has absolutely no way to defend himself. The only way he can explain the terrible events that transpired is to tell the rest of the story and reveal confidential details regarding exCLCer’s Mom and her children, details she may have never even have told her own children. He can’t respond to her daughter’s inquiries. And he certainly can’t here.
From reading here, it sounds like the pastors were entangled in a terrible family situation involving a molester, poverty, an emotionally devastated mother who lost her 9 children and then continued to have four more in what might be considered “baby hoarding”. It was a bad situation or a bad situation. There was no good outcome.
Covenant Lifers – there is more to this story and Gary has chosen to leave in disgrace than reveal those confidential details to defend himself.
There are reasons people are conflicted. Gary was there during their sickness and surgeries and hospital stays and the death of their mother or their child. People have seen Gary involve the police immediately when someone is sexually victimized. Gary has counseled and prayed faithfully for decades. And, the thousands of stories weigh heavily against the handful of situations on the blogs that went badly. That’s not saying they weren’t bad, it’s just saying there’s a big picture and we can’t see it here.
Members – there’s a lot you don’t know. Leave Gary and Betsy and their children alone. They can’t defend themselves.
Gary – come back to CLC. Bring Betsy and the kids with you. Serve out your days here. These people love you.
ExCLCer – come back, too. It’s clear CLC has heard your cries and has made dramatic changes under new leadership in response to voices like yours. The people clearly love you, too and many are willing to give up relationships they had for decades in your defense.
It absolutely amazea me what people will do to be loyal to C.J. All of these machinations are designed for his and his family’s benefit alone. I think Kris is correct in pointing out that C.J. intends to control SGM without an official postion and the accountabiltiy that brings. However, C.J.’s motives are now as obvious to people as they have been to God all along. SGM will become irrelevant in a few years, and that is probably a good thing.
New SGM name…
“Great Commission SGMers”
Of course Cj is moving out of state. He wants to get out a.s.a.p. so he can start his new program! More mediation would just slow things down. So would CLC pastors, so why not move to Solid Rock for a short time before the big move. He don’t need no stinkin’ permission…
Here is how it will go…
He moves to Louisville and into a predominantly white upper middle class neighborhood like Polo Fields, Middleton, Jeffersontown, Houston Acres or even Indian Springs or Anchorage. You can imagine how much cheaper homes are down there. CJ will be able to get an even larger house than he has now and at a better price! He will also need this type of neighborhood to plant his church because SGM churches work best in up-scale areas that already have a plethora of existing churches for SGM to siphon off members from in the early stages.
There are hundreds of churches down there and the best option would be to buy out an existing church. I am certain that SGM will be more than happy to give CJ a generous church planting budget. This plant will, after all, put Kentucky onto the official SGM map and make SGM that much more famous for having churches in soooo many states!
After a year or two the church will be built up to a size that will require little work from CJ so he will be free to roam about the country. After all, Dayton will be just 150 miles away, the same distance from where he lives now to the disintegrating church down in Midlothian, just outside Richmond, Va. Or the same distance from CLC to the center for Kool-aid studies located at CFC, just outside Philly. CJ’s new church will have a generous population of planters who willingly and enthusiastically came down from Gaithersburg to be with THE ONE. There will also be a few coming down from Dayton and perhaps even some from Knoxville will shift over to the new Ky church. Plus the influx of people from all over SGM-dom that would love to get in close and personal with the Ceej. And throw in all the people outside of SGM that would love to sit at the feet of the great founder of SGM and T4G lecturer and you can see a substantial early church starting, almost from the get go.
Once this new church is up and running, CJ will have little to do other than be the figure head. He can fly all over to a multitude of conferences and command performances because his three sons in law will be the asst pastors there and they will shoulder most of the responsibilities, doing the bulk of the work that actually gets done. CJ hasn’t had dirty hand in years but all three SiLs have great reputations for hard work. At least two of them will have seminary degrees by that time, too. I don’t know if they would all like to live in CJ’s house or if CJ could find a house big enough, but certainly the clan could all be in the same neighborhood, AND CJ bought at least one SiL a house before so with the cheap home prices down in Ky he can probably buy each of them their own house within walking distance of his house AND the church, if he wishes. (Maybe SGM will pay the SiLs to be church planters, too.)
So after this is all settled then it is time for SGM to move down as well. It will take at least that long for Harvey to write new polity and hand select his favorites to be on the new SGM Board. The new members are already listed…three Harvey Clones, three SGM Kool-aid drinkers, one refugee from a sinking ship, and two untainted pastors will make up the rubber stamp for the SGM support team for CJ and then the eventual SGM move south.
SGM will be persona non grata there at CLC. What with SGM’s lackluster performance with the panels, and with the excoriating report from AoR that will be coming out in late March, and the chilly relationship between SGM/Harvey and CLC, and since the few people that still work for SGM will have left (either on their own accord or because the drop in giving to SGM has not provided enough money to keep them employed), there won’t be much reason to stay in Gaithersburg as the home base for SGM. SGM will sell their portion of the condo arrangement with CLC back to CLC (hopefully at fire sale prices) and move the entire organization down to Louisville.
With the difference in property prices, SGM will be able to purchase a nice facility right next to CJ’s new church or perhaps they will be able to BUILD a new facility ONTO CJ’s new church! At any rate, SGM will be co-located just down the street from Al Mohler’s Seminary.
This is real reason for moving to Louisville. With big wigs like CJ and Bob Kauflin and Jeff Purswell, they can do lecturing at the Seminary to bolster their global standing and bring in a few more bucks. They won’t really need more money because the SGM salary they had in Gaithersburg that the new, Harvey picked SGM board will continue to pay, will be waaaay more than enough to cover the cost of living in Louisville! They will be on easy street. The Seminary lecturing will be mostly for their own pride, their worldly standing amongst other reformed big dogs and their reputation with other SGM sympathizers and conference attenders. This is, after all, about power, influence and money! CJ’s substantial donations to Mohler are now paying off. The only SGM guy to be left out of the perfect plan will be John Loftness. He will have his hands full preaching Charitable Judgments and looking for satan, to protect CJ’s move. Harvey will continue to hole-up in CFC. He will need to stay around and operate the string that attach to the new puppets he put on the board. Does the term “Useful Idiots” ring a bell?
The whole thing will come together pretty quickly and fairly easily because CJ has been there and done that before. He has the past experience with CLC and he knows what the model organization should look like so it is full steam ahead. And with plenty of great people to do the work, man the equipment and play the roles of adoring crowds at the conference and speaking engagements, CJ and Bob and the whole Mahaney Clan should be sitting pretty and back on top of their world in a little more than three years!
Don’t forget you heard it here first!
If the information is correct and SGM will move to Louisville with CJ, I think all may be in for a surprise. Louisville is home to many SBC churches. Traditionally they have not be elder led but are instead congregationally led. Accountability of the leadership is high. Autonomy of the local church is paramount. Because of SBTS and the PCA seminary, pastors are a dime a dozen; congregations seldom retain a pastor for many years. There is always new talent (and hopefully called servant leaders) who are eager to pastor churches in the area. It doesn’t take much for a pastor to be asked to leave a local church. This is something to which CJ and SILs are not accustomed. They may be in-and-out of a job rather quickly.
There is quite a bit of opposition within the Baptist Convention (family of churches – I just had to say it!) to Al Mohler’s leadership. Many find him arrogant. However, many SBC churches are struggling to maintain membership. They struggle to reach unbelievers. They struggle with change. The T4G group certainly is appealing as change. CJ and SGM may also be appealing. I just don’t believe many folks in KY would agree to giving up all congregational authority and submit fully to the authoritarian polity of SGM.
Lastly, I too feel terrible for the staff of SGM. I hope for them that they choose not to uproot to follow CJ. Perhaps the current SGM offices can be turned into a counseling center for SGM detox.
There is nothing that prevents Gary from contacting exCLCer and talking with her about HIS behavior, seperate from her mother or anyone else. (As we all know, this is God’s mandate.) Gary’s shame is from his own behavior and no one else’s.
And baby hoarding? Are you serious? The families I know who had nearly a dozen children were held up as examples at SGM, not called names like hoarders.
PS. I should have added that having your own church members harrass or reject you is HORRIBLE. I really feel sorry for his kids.
And I honestly would never want to be a part of a church where people felt free to pick on children. That is beyond twisted.
Has CJ ever read the book Jonah?
:scratch
@yentl #37 Angry CLC members have harassed their children and forced Gary to leave in disgrace.
Can you substantiate that claim? Who was harassed? How and by whom?
Gary did not leave in disgrace. My understanding is that he was practically begged to stay.
Stunned @ 24 –
I was referring to the SGM Board. The details if this statement are over at the Refuge blog.
I’m not sure that SGM is moving. It’s more likely that several prominent SGM leaders will go to SBC as has already begun to happen with CJ’s SIL.
@Stunned #35 You wrote: “PS. I should have added that having your own church members harrass or reject you is HORRIBLE. I really feel sorry for his kids. And I honestly would never want to be a part of a church where people felt free to pick on children. That is beyond twisted.”
A couple of things on this. I would like to hear the specifics about the harassment of Gary’s kids before I believe it. And, second, just so everyone knows, his kids are all adults or very close to it.
Kaz
Maybe it will be
Mahaney Ministries
Sovreign Graceless Ministries
World’s Most Wonderful Ministries
Sovreign Grace Ministries Ressurected
All of Me and None for You Ministries
yentl
So now are you going to try and say that ExClCers Mom’s behavior is why John Loftness and Gary Ricucci didn’t have CLC Members take (even temporarily) ExCLCer’s Mom’s children in including ExCLCer? Is that why John Loftness left her at a state institution rather than having one of the many families in CLC take this child in?
I would find this hard to believe.
I am sure Gary left due to “moma” not being happy with “moma” being Gary’s wife who is also C.J.’s sister.
Sam McGee, I appreciate you commenting on my post. I am NOT accusing anyone in CLC of harrassing another’s children, adult or little. I was questioning why, if yentl or (anyone else) believes that Gary or his children were victim’s of outrageously heniously unjustified behavior, why would yentl or anyone else who believes such charges to be true, still be a part of that body? Why aren’t they standing up in the church itself and addressing this directly? Have they gone to each and every person who harrassed these kids (grown or not) and called each person, personally to repent of their sin? Called them to go to Gary’s children, one by one, to repent of what they have done? If not, what does it say about the people who believe such horrible things were done? What does it say about CLC? Or what does it even say for Gary for running if that is truly the case. He had many options and we can not claim he was a victim of exCLCer, her mom, or anyone else.
I may go visit people in hospitals, but that doesn’t mean that I still may not have done something henious enough to remove me from being a pastor. Nor does it mean that once the truth comes out and I still don’t want to get right with my victim, I should receive pity because people are finally seeing me for what I did wrong.
Scripture states we go to the person personally. If they have refused to repent, then it is taken to the church. Go, do that first if you or anyone knows sin done against Gary and his kids. Give them a chance to repent and be right with God.
If you (generaly you, not you at all, Sam) haven’t done so, yet know of specific sin done, you need to look in the mirror and ask why you haven’t followed this mandate of scripture. Gary and his family deserve this care, too.
Sam, opps, I should have said that the you was a general you and not aimed at you throughout my entire post. I genuinely hope I didn’t cause any misunderstanding.
yentl said:
If what you said is true about there being more to the story and “confidential details” and Gary doesn’t publicly want to share then what might be good is for Gary Ricucci and John Loftness to meet with ExCLCer and share these details with ExCLCer giving their perspective on what happened. Hasn’t ExCLCer appealed yearly to John Loftness to give some type of answer for what was done?
With regard to one of the Ricucci children being “harassed” I imagine it has more to do with one of the kids defending C.J. Mahaney vs. ExCLCers story. Isn’t the Riccuci child now an adult in age?
Protestant Dame – Can you elaborate on your comment about the upcoming CFC family meeting from the last thread? Will church-specific issues be discussed, or is it all CJ/Louisville/Dave leaving the board? I’m guessing,if church-specific issues, 1. divisive/gossipers/slanderers/blog readers excommunicated since that seems to be Jared’s pet peeve right now, or 2. pastors leaving. I’m sincerely hoping and praying it is nothing to do with child abuse like at some of the other churches.
Sam et al
I am aware of nothing but affirmative comments and attitudes toward Rucucci family members, in particular. They seem to have a lot of love left at CLC. Check out all the loving FB messages flowing out today from CLC members toward both the Ricuccis and the Mahaneys. I haven’t heard one negative word about Carolyn, either.
So, to me the complaints alluded to seem pretty bogus. Anyway, the persons of interest are all adults so, if they have received any form of negativity, they are old enough to handle it like I have handled the snubs we have received from various leaders over the years, by forgiveness, not avoidance.
What is needed at this point in history, are apologies from all of the current and past leaders for grossly miss-handled cases.
Anyone else find it ironic that both Larry and CJ will be living in the same state?
Larry is living in KY now?
Larry’s web page says he is living in the Nashville, Tenn area