Another Confession
March 4, 2012 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Many readers have requested prayer for tonight’s family meeting at Covenant Fellowship Church, during which Dave Harvey will be reading a confession of his own personal hypocrisy and a subsequent cover-up.
From what I understand, it sounds like Mr. Harvey is finally being forced to follow the same standards he has helped to impose upon others over the years. Unfortunately, some of those standards have to do with how a leader deals with his family members, one of those pieces of Sovereign Grace Ministries’ culture that in my opinion should not ever have been executed in the rigidly legalistic way that it has been.
So let’s all pray for this meeting, the CFC congregation, and Dave Harvey and his family. Specifically, I think we should pray that the focus would be on what it should be on. If people are going to be aghast and horrified, I’m hoping that it’s over the idea that impossible standards and too-high expectations were set out for pastors and their families…and then area leaders (formerly known as “apostles”), who knew from personal experience just how impossible those standards are to uphold, nonetheless turned around and proclaimed other pastors unfit for ministry because they hadn’t lived up to those extrabiblical expectations.
In other words, it’s the hypocrisy, people!
I also think this situation raises some other interesting questions having to do with Dave Harvey’s leadership during the investigation of Brent Detwiler’s charges against C.J. Mahaney. A major theme in Mr. Detwiler’s documents was that C.J. did not himself follow the rules and live by the standards he had established for the men in leadership beneath him. How meaningful is it, anyway, for a guy now revealed as guilty of the same pattern of hypocrisy – Dave Harvey – to oversee panels and write questions for those panels and eventually declare C.J. “fit for ministry”? Wouldn’t someone with his own skeletons (well, “skeletons” according to SGM’s definition) have a hard time being fair and impartial, particularly when his own hypocrisy was along the exact same lines as that of the man he’s in charge of investigating?
Depending upon what Mr. Mahaney knew about Mr. Harvey’s own secrets, doesn’t the very real possibility exist that Mr. Harvey could have been concerned about a new, second episode of blackmail (or “coercion,” or whatever you want to call what C.J. did to Larry Tomczak over Larry’s child’s confessed sin)?
I hope that SGMers focus on the important questions, rather than upon whatever personal issues may be revealed. I hope people think long and hard about what they’ve been taught to expect out of their leaders – and what it means when it comes to light that leaders don’t live up to those expectations but are nonetheless enabled by the pyramid structure of the organization’s government to turn around and demand that those beneath them continue to follow the expectations.
What is this culture that C.J. Mahaney has created and presided over for so long, anyway? Should C.J. be starting a new church? Would SGM really be any different in a new location? What does it mean for an organization, when one of its defining characteristics – the authority of its pastors, conferred upon them in large part because of their exemplary “biblical” lifestyle – is revealed to be more about image and perceptions rather than rooted in reality?
© 2012, Kris. All rights reserved.
Kris,
How do you know the family meeting at covfel will be about Dave Harvey confessing?
Lynn –
People have been sharing that info with me for the past several days. A couple have even attempted to post comments containing more details (comments which I deleted).
I suppose time will tell, if these folks were right. Typically, when I hear the same story from multiple sources, it’s usually accurate.
Praying right now.
No matter what is revealed about Dave Harvey, I really hope people show the Harvey family true grace and then ask the right questions.
It’s not so much whether Dave Harvey conducted himself perfectly, or led his family with perfection. Instead, I think the much deeper issue is that SGM’s pastors and organizational leaders have often presented themselves as “a cut above” other pastors/leaders from other denominations…and their moral superiority and the superiority of their families is at least in part what has given them their authority to be spiritual leaders who must be obeyed and submitted to.
SGMers need to be thinking about how the organization’s pyramid approach to authority and leadership can possibly work (or even be “biblical”) when it’s the guys at the top who confer this authority, and judge pastors as fit or unfit based upon lifestyle standards which they themselves secretly struggle to meet.
What harm does it do to these guys’ integrity, when the men beneath them are constantly sucking up to them and pandering for their approval, based in part upon those underlings’ perceptions of their higher-ups’ righteousness? How can the leaders be held accountable at all? How can they possibly bring themselves to be honest about their shortcomings, when the whole pyramid structure would collapse if they told the truth about themselves (rather than just pay lip service to being the “worst sinners they know”)?
Kris,
Another question what so you mean that he is being forced? And sorry one more, why did you delete the comments saying in detail what the meeting was about. Thanks.
Time will tell on this, and it is good for all to pray. My first thought (and I do not know Dave Harvey at all), is what a good example Dave Harvey is setting for CJ, who chooses to run, instead of confess and stand before those who have stood with him. It takes strength to do such a thing. So, then I was thinking, why can CJ NOT do this?
Just some thoughts here, but this is where I think a wife really comes in handy to a man (or the other way around also)..One’s spouse is one’s closest person ever-they know you inside and out..what they speak to you, or tolerate from you is certainly a reflection one uses to judge themself. Abusers feel more powerful is their spouse cowers in fear, jumping to please and obey..a woman feels beautiful when her spouse longs to be with her..so many ways a spouse reflects to the other, to ‘make or break them’ so to speak. Perhaps Dave Harvey’s wife was more honest with him in what she sees and experiences.
Okay, I am not trying to put any responsibility on a spouse, for we are each responsible for our own actions, and marriage is a “dance” of actions and reactions anyway-a wife may not be so ‘vocal’ to her husband because he will not listen, or other causes and effects. I juts remember how in CLC, it was always my responsibility to “support and uplift” my husband to a degree that I still believe is unreasonable, and I can see where that could hinder a person from realistically seeing issues in themselves that others see.
The details of such we may never know, but if it is a situation where Dave Harvey’s wife has become intolerant of hypocrisy, then I applaud her strength, and Dave’s wisdom for listening to her, and I hope he recognizes what an asset it is to have a wife who speaks her mind!
I know neither Dave Harvey or his wife, or family. This is all pure conjecture, just really using this situation to muse and relate other faulty SGM practices and how they can hinder people. I am praying for the Harveys and all involved.
Time to kick prayer up a serious notch or two.
I am not speculating about the fam, I know these people and therefore care about them and I can do nothing but think how I would feel with people speculating about my family dynamics.
We don’t need to know the details to pray so lets all keep all of these people in prayer today.
First, I pray that this is God’s will and in His timing.
I pray for healing for the people involved.
I pray that those harmed would be healed.
I pray that balance would be restored and that all of those that are blessed to be created in God’s image and likeness are respected and valued and that people would look at the church after all of this and see a reflection of the God we love and worship.
Lynn,
As DB said, we don’t need to know the specifics…a few of which were included in one of the comments I didn’t let past moderation.
I am walking what feels like a tight line, in that I believe the secrecy and control of information is one piece of SGM’s problems. It’s crazy (and a sign of SGM’s utter abnormality) that a site like this one is how many SGMers get information about their church organization. I feel a sense of obligation to put the truth out there.
On the other hand, when people’s personal lives are involved – particularly people who didn’t have a lot of control over whether they subscribed to the SGM approach to the Christian lifestyle – there’s something really icky and uncomfortable about exposing those people to further scrutiny.
So, we will (I hope) keep the focus on the larger issues and not on the details.
Kris,
At the risk of contradicting my previous post, I was thinking the same thought; I will be disappointed to downright angry if all this confession amounts to is throwing one of DH’s kids or his wife under the bus.
These are *real* people with feelings and everything. They aren’t the ones that have caussed pain to anyone and I will be peeved to blood-boiling status if they become the whipping boys instead of focusing on something that is actually wrong whose confession and correction will bring about healing and restoration of relationship.
Again, small words so everyone (including anyone that lurks on these boards)
HANDS OFF THE FAM: THEY ARE NOT FAIR GAME!
As someone who has sat at Dave’s kitchen table and as someone who has taught each of his children in Sunday School, I take no delight in what has been happening.
For years many of us have been aware of problems, and not one of us have published one word about the troubles. Sometimes people come on here and makes accusations of gossip and slander. Those who come and make that accusation have no idea how much our hearts ACHE for the families still in SGM. We hurt for the children who have been presented a perverse view of a harsh god. And we hurt for the parents when they begin to reap the fruit of years of well intentioned but legalistic parenting techniques. These parents LOVE their children but have been fed poison, which they unwittingly pass onto their children.
No one here wants to see parents, let alone their kids suffer. No one here delights in seeing others publically shamed. If we did, we would have already revealed much of what will be revealed tonight. But we did not. Because we love the people involved. We desire REPENTANCE.
I pray tonight that no one wil be shocked because they find out that certain people are not prefect. I pray that these imperfect people are treated with the love and grace Jesus gives to us.
I pray, also, that the focus of ALL will not be of the sin of regular humans but on Jesus, who is the truth, the way and the light. I pray that everyone there will be cut to the heart, realizing that on more than one occasion they have allowed this hypocrisy to go on, some for decades, by turning a blind eye each time someone was forced to step down or leave the church for much less.
It is time for the men and women of Covenamt Fellowship to grow into the men and women God means for them to be. STRONG. RESILIENT. LOVING. CAPABLE to follow God on their own. To heart His voice. To stand up for the oppressed and unjustly accused. Do it. Tonight. Let your voice and God’s love be known tonight. Not just for the leaders, but to the least of these. It is time. It is your time. Do not think you can turn a blind eye our a soft”i dont know what to do” one more time. Do not think you stew so comfortable that you will not reap if you turn a blind eye one more time, tonight. God’s heart is for the poorand afflicted. Those who suffer in silence. Please, do not forget them as you listen tonight.
This is my prayer.
So is the sense here that DH is going to confess his hypocrisy of holding other pastors to a high standard of parenting and then covering up the sin of one of his own children? If so, then I think the hypocrisy and pride associated with that are the issues, and not the particular sin of the child. Just a reminder: every kid sins so I fail to see how that would be news.
There is the matter of 1 Tim 3:4 with regards to the qualifications for overseers, is there not? But I think that refers to a pattern in one’s life rather than one particular episode.
Kris,
I do think it is good to stay away from the family of Dave. They did nothing wrong. I guess I just asked why you deleted the comments because you always put everything out there. I always believed to lay off the the ones who were birthed into sgm. It’s not their fault. Also, I do see Dave’s wife as being the type of woman to stand up. I never talked to her, but I do feel that she finally told him straight. When I would see her converse with people she seemed so in touch with them. And i do remember when Dave wanted to change the name of covfel, she went against it, and when they said they wont change it, she was jumping up and down.
Kris, thank you for giving so many people an opportunity to discuss things freely here, while still using discretion about sharing unnecessary details regarding DH’s family. (first post =] )
DB, amen, sister!!!!!!
ExCLCersMom,
I love your heart, but please be careful about assigning motives (even good ones). I am not a fan of speculation because we can mislead ourselves or others by it. (Of course, I know you know this. You just have a heart the size of Texas and hate to see anyone suffer, in spite of the pain that person has caused countless others.)
I think this part of the truth needs to be known. (Kris, please edit this if you disagree.) Dave Harvey is sharing tonight because quite a few influential members threatened to out him and other information if Dave himself did not do so. It was not a choice of the info coming out or not, but rather these gracious people were giving Dave the choice to save some face by doing it himself. If it had been a heart conviction, he would have repented on his own a long time ago.
Dave needs grace. But he does not need anyone to attribute qualities to him, which he does not possess. Please, people of SGM, STOP being enablers. STOP getting in God’s way by excusing sin in Dave and CJ’s lives, as well as the other SGM leaders. Ass long as you suppory them (with anything but love and friendship), these men will NEVER need to fully come to Jesus. Please, if you love them at all, get out of Gof’s way! Allow God to work and stop protect horrible behavior.
How much longer will you do this? How long before you realize that enabling is not love, but is only harming these poor little creations of God? It is time. Step away and learn the true love, grace and freedom in Jesus for your own hearts. You wouldn’t believe how good the air is out here.
Sam, amen to your first paragraph!
To your second, I would say years of deceit and cover up, distortion, lies and bullying equal a pattern and not simply a one time thing. (Of course, I am not speaking of any family member here.)
I’ve been confused about this for a long time… can someone explain to me how Dave works at SGM and is the interim president, but doesn’t live in Maryland… or does he? Does he just do his duties from afar? I would’ve thought he would need to be closer to the main offices.
Also, if he doesn’t, why does SGM need to move to Kentucky? (If this is true…)
God is not mocked. He chastises those that He loves. Even SGM leaders.
I pray that this confession is the first of many for him and the other SGM leaders. His will WILL be done.
I do agree with all that the family should be off limits, and I take joy in hearing the compassion expressed here for Dave Harvey! I never intended to speculate specifically on Dave or his family , or even Carolyn Mahaney with that post. Although I did think that “if the shoe fit” with Dave’s wife, I applaud her for that, but really, if the shoe does fit, then I am sure she is doing it for God’s applaud and not what the rest of us may or may not think! Mostly, I thought how for so many years as a wife, I saw things that bothered me about my then husband, and how I was always pushing to resolve things. It wasn’t that I was pushing for perfection, but rather I was pushing for transparency , but it was pretty much expressed to me how “love covers a multitude of sins”, or to “speak in faith, as though it already was”, things that only promoted covering up one’s issues. So, my point was really not about either family specifically, but rather the issue of not respecting how a spouse can have greater insight into a persons character, therefore that each spouse should be listened to for what they have to say, and encouraged to be honest with their spouse in all areas, not simply ‘quietly submissive and supportive’, because that is not support!
I probably should have left all of their names out altogether, to avoid any confusion, because the statement really wasn’t meant to be specifically speculative, more I was speculating on the pitfalls of the system. I would not want that to be confused.
I am praying for them all. No matter what the confession, or why, I know it is a hard difficult thing to do, and pray for Grace and strength for Dave and his family! I pray for the Church there, that all experience the Grace and Wisdom from God tonight as a result of this coming event.
“If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth, but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sin, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (I John 1:6-9)
After reading about tonight’s meeting, I was moved to pray, and the Lord laid on my heart to pray specifically for a spirit of conviction to fall upon Dave and the church tonight, and for everyone in that room to be moved to repentence as each has need. I know that Satan, the father of lies, often convinces God’s people to be fearful of transparency, to dread truth to be exposed for fear of shame, humiliation, and rejection. But it is such a lie! When we are transparent and truthful about our own sin because of the Holy Spirit’s conviction (not the condemnation of others’ sin-sniffing), and we humbly confess our sins, we are FREED from Satan’s lies and we can then see the truth clearly, knowing God’s forgiveness and sometimes even men’s forgiveness. God’s forgiveness is guaranteed. It cleanses us and makes us earnestly desire make things right with our brethren. Then healing of lives and restoration can happen. Praise God!
It may be that we sometimes confess because we’re out of options, but the Holy Spirit can work even then, giving us eyes to see the truth of God’s grace and forgiveness. In that case, we can truly know His loving conviction, and can then respond out of a true heart of repentence. What glory that will be!
I was immediately reminded of Randy Wright’s song:
All-consuming fire, you’re my heart’s desire,
And I love You dearly, dearly, Lord.
You’re my meditation and my consolation,
And I love You dearly, dearly, Lord.
Glory to the Lamb!
I exalt the great I AM!
Reigning on Your glorious throne,
You are my eternal home!
May God’s all-consuming fire and loving conviction sweep through that room tonight and begin to spark a flame that consumes all of Christ’s church to the glory of God, the healing of His body, and the salvation of this nation and world.
I, at one time, knew Dave and his family very well. They are dear to me. My family has left SGM and we are “survivors” or are trying to be just like all of you. I’ve babysat his children — even when he was at meetings with C.J. and, like all of us, Dave is not perfect. He would be the first to say this. Still there seems to be a “disconnect” with the personal man vs. the leader man. More and more, I’m starting to have compassion/pity on these guys. They’ve set up an unkeepable standard for themselves following these man-made formulas they’ve labeled “biblical.” Is is “biblical” to have a perfect family relations? Can we really “control” our children as if they don’t make individual choices? Can we really “control” family members who disagree with us and call us on our own hypocrisy and mistakes over the years? I am learning these lessons myself by observing all of this with shame and horror at my own past “spiritual” behaviors during my SGM days.
So many of my closest friends still reside in SGM churches. They are precious people in a controlling, abusive, cult-like system. I truly hope that Dave’s repentance will be sincere for the sake of the many dear ones still within the SGM grip. If not, I pray they get out as fast as possible!
Actually, Stunned, you said it so much better than I!
That’s is pretty much the point I was trying to say, except that I was focusing on how important a wife can be in that role! And, we all know that it applies to more than just Dave or CJ! As a matter of fact, it is important for all of us in different areas!
Elsie, what an absolutely fantastic post! So very true!! I will be praying that also!! Gonna go start right now, as a matter of fact!
Stunned said:
This is really sad if this is true what Stunned is alleging. If true, it just shows how disconnected some of these men are from God. Is it any wonder why Harvey lead the whitewashing of C.J. Mahaney? Harvey was in the same boat.
Sometimes God arranges circumstances to show leaders how unattainable their standards are that they have imposed on others. Wouldn’t it have been great if C.J. Mahaney used the circumstances of his not attending care group as he required others to realize that there were sometimes conditions when also regular members couldn’t rather than thinking it was OK impose standards on others he didn’t live by? Wouldn’t it have been great if C.J. Mahaney realized his standards for the behavior of a leader’s children might be too high when C.J.’s son was alleged to have done certain actions.
The worst thing is what pressure it puts on children of leaders. Do you imagine how Larry’s son must have felt thinking that his actions cost his dad his job in addition how C.J.’s threatened to share something Larry’s son shared with C.J. in confidence.
Sadly it looks like Harvey and C.J. Mahaney have fallen into their own pit as Proverbs 26:27 indicates:
“He who digs a pit will fall into it,
And he who rolls a stone, it will come back on him. “
Steve240 – Great text, Proverbs 26:27. Thanks for that…. I think I will commit it to memory. Over the course of my many years, I have dug my share of pits to be sure.
Kris – thanks for the call to pray and the wisdom you show in deleting some comments when needed. I am certainly worked up over the SGM issues – but I want to be a part of the solution for Christ. It gets tempting for me to want to see these men have problems and get the tables turned on them, but that is not what Jesus would want me to be doing. I struggle to balance my “straight shooting” with Godly humility.
Anyway – I do tend to think that Diamond Dave has caused a lot of these problems. But he is a dad and husband just like I am. I want him to repent yes, but I also want him to get through this and be better off for it.
Dave Harvey – if you read here, or if anyone reads here that knows Dave – here is something that may be from the Lord.
Dear Dave,
You are a gifted and smart man. You have been a good husband and father. However, you have not always conducted yourself in a way that looks out for God’s flock in Sovereign Grace Ministries. You have succumbed to the temptation of putting the machine ahead of the mission. I had a thought today of the impact you could have if you were a teacher in a public high school. I am not sure why this popped into my mind, but it may be from the Lord. If there is some behavior that you need to repent of, and you step down from CFC and SGM, that is not the end for you. I think the Lord has a plan for you that is greater than you can imagine, and it will impact a certain community with the gospel. Please do the hard thing. If needed, make things right with those you have hurt, and then look forward to what God has for you. This is not the end and many of us are pulling for you.
I wonder if what is allegedly now coming out with Dave Harvey may have been a big reason that Jared Mellinger chose to give the messages and information he gave about “gossip” and passing along “bad” reports?
I am glad to know that Dave may be confessing wrong-doing because I think there is a serious need for it. But, I will be sad if somehow he is doing so under duress. I will also be sad if he is taking a hit to protect the organization, or CJ.
I do agree with Kris and others that there are unreasonable legalistic requirements within SGM. But, I also think pastors are hypocritical if they hold others to those standards, without following them in their own lives.
This is off topic, but the subject of SGM’s Haiti fund came up in the last comment thread and I wanted to add a little info. It is true that as of August 2011, roughly 2/3 of the money, or ~$200k had not been sent to Haiti yet, according to SGM’s FY2011 financial statement:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/Reference/SGMFinancialStatements_FY2011.pdf
(Page 14, Section 8)
SGM’s explanation (dated October 6, 2010) and a nonspecific plan for the future can be found here:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Haiti-Disaster-Relief-update-part-3-long-term-aid.aspx
On a personal note, as long as SGM is upfront and honest about what this money is doing now, and why (i.e. specific plans, and who is earning the interest, etc), I don’t think that it’s necessarily unusual to have a hard time distributing it to the Haitian people. According to Wikipedia, it seems to be a general problem right now, with a lot of reconstruction efforts at a standstill and only 43% of worldwide aid delivered for one reason or another. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Haiti_earthquake#Rescue_and_relief_efforts) Earthquake recovery takes a long time, I’m sure.
At the time of the earthquake, I did think it was strange that SGM would establish a fund of its own instead of simply encouraging people to contribute to other well-established and perhaps more well-connected charities.
That sunglasses smiley in my comment #27 should be an ‘8’, as in Page 14, Section 8…
God’s mercy and His grace, His longsuffering and His patience, are available to all. It’s available to adulterers, murderers, sinners of every stripe…but when we routinely cover it up we all need to remember that God said He won’t allow himself to be mocked, or to allow His name to be profaned among the nations.
God is the most important person in this situation. If occaision has been given for His name to be damaged then decisive action is what is dictated by the scriptures, and if His people fail to do it, then He will, and He has acted in this situation to put an end to lies that have damaged many. All the cast of characters here are well aware that this is all about Him, and not them. It is sad that the details of peoples lives get exposed, but when they are critical details of the story of the cover up, well the truth needs to be known, because it revels the depths of the deception, sadly…this is what it has come to, and I don’t know anyone who ever left SGM who didn’t try to bring critical input out of love for the Lord and His people…these very people…but it was rejected…we should all take notice…and take very good notes…for our own good.
Praying for Dave and the CovFel meeting happening this evening. A lot of people at CovFel have no idea what to expect and many have even forgotten there was to be a meeting tonight. I think many will be completely taken by surprise. I’m praising God for His care and guidance in the hearts of His people and so thankful that so many have been praying for Dave these last few days especially.
One thing I have wondered about is how Dave could tell the A team to treat CJ like a teenager when CJ was being stubborn, and then turn around and act at conferences and at churches as if CJ was second to the Apostle Paul. So many people were misled to trust CJ when behind the scenes he was being worse than my own teens ever were.
The thing is, what should Dave have done? If you were in that postition, would you have just swept it under the rug and covered up? Paul rebuked Cephas (Peter) in front of everybody. Should Dave at the very least have told all the SGM pastors, or tried to get in a mediator many years ago? Was he trying to not shame and belittle CJ….or was it all just maintaining control? I wonder if Dave could have tried to get Piper to reason with CJ back then, or somebody. (I assume that if such actions had been taken Brent would have spilled the beans in the docs.)
If I am introducing somebody to another I certainly show respect and don’t blab about their sins. I am not sure Dave should have blabbed about CJ in public, but, the over the top back slapping image they put on at Gospel Coalition and so forth, well, it was so fake. I mean maybe for the sake of the kingdom of God he was right to keep his mouth shut about CJ’s dark side publically….but to hide it from the other SGM pastors who were submitted to the A team? It seems like control and manipulation. I don’t know. I really wonder how he could say one thing in private and then put on another opposite act in public. Ugh, I could not do that, I’d sooner quit my job. Maybe they think it is the best way to glorify God?
Well, I too will pray.
Stunned and Steve240 — Does it really matter why Dave is confessing, as long as he IS confessing. It is God who is at work in him both to will and to do of all His good pleasure. Just thank God and rejoice.
We learned today at CovFel that Bob K will be with us the weekend of 3/16-18. Friday night will be a meeting of just worship, Saturday will be a morning with any musicians who wish to attend (not sure what this will be), Sunday Bob will be preaching at both services. I have never heard him preach, but I love his piano playing.
CJ’s “confession” after more than 15 years was only tendered when he had no choice…only because Brent’s documents were made public…we know he has since recanted and gone on the attack against those who have tried to care for the churches, and wrongly labeled them as the enemy…
So yes why someone is confessing does matter a great deal…because it can tell us much about the true state of the heart…if someone is cornered and given no choice but to confess…well…chances are they aren’t truly sorry…just sorry they got caught…
I know I sound like a broken record, but – the primary culprit in these situations of hidden sin is the system.
When CJ and Larry T established the family of churches, they made a big thing out of how PDI pastors were “men of proven character” – with “character” encompassing how submitted those guys were to their own leaders, as well as how “orderly” the men’s families were. While there might be a bit more diversity among SGM’s pastors’ families now, for years it was the case that pastors and their wives and children followed a very tight and specific sort of lifestyle. Most pastors’ wives dressed and spoke in a certain way. Most homeschooled the children. Children were expected to exhibit joyous obedience…to fling up their hands enthusiastically during worship…to be exceedingly deferential and respectful to their SGM leaders…to eschew dating and all romantic interests and only do courtship to find a spouse…and to live circumspectly in all other ways, avoiding all manner of rebellious teenage behavior (like partying, doing drugs, drinking).
If you consider the premium placed on the outward appearances of the SGM pastor’s family, and then factor in the way that pastors were expected to, in effect, police each other, is it any wonder that a culture would develop where these guys would grow highly protective of their family’s image…and also, where there’d be a reluctance to confront one another, since the other qualification for ministry within SGM was a constant display of humility toward those above one in the leadership food chain?
If Dave Harvey had his own issues that those around him were helping him to keep on the down-low, why in the world would he EVER have even considered trying to rein in CJ, especially when he knew very well how CJ had handled Larry T’s own family failings?
I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating: accountability within the pyramid leadership structure depends more and more upon the honor system, the higher up one goes in the structure.
I tend to agree with Deuteronomy’s #34. Why a confession happens is almost more important than the confession itself.
I’m beginning to think that the pastors of CLC have been waaaaayyyyyy to nice to SGM “leaders.”
C’mon, guys! Tell it like it is. The truth hurts and the world deserves the truth!
Otherwise, I’m afraid it’s going to come back to bite the CLC guys big time.
I’m really pulling for ya, CLC. But it’s getting real hard to keep hanging on to “hope” that keeps getting dashed…
Sid
Kris #35 –
Spot on. The system is engineered so that the participants have to lie to EVERYONE, including themselves, to succeed. No wonder it’s maddening.
Stunned #10 “I pray, also, that the focus of ALL will not be of the sin of regular humans but on Jesus, who is the truth, the way and the light. I pray that everyone there will be cut to the heart, realizing that on more than one occasion they have allowed this hypocrisy to go on, some for decades, by turning a blind eye each time someone was forced to step down or leave the church for much less.
It is time for the men and women of Covenant Fellowship to grow into the men and women God means for them to be. STRONG. RESILIENT. LOVING. CAPABLE to follow God on their own. To heart His voice. To stand up for the oppressed and unjustly accused. Do it. Tonight. Let your voice and God’s love be known tonight. Not just for the leaders, but to the least of these. It is time. It is your time. Do not think you can turn a blind eye or say, ”i don’t know what to do” one more time. Do not think you stew so comfortable that you will not reap if you turn a blind eye one more time, tonight. God’s heart is for the poor and afflicted. Those who suffer in silence. Please, do not forget them as you listen tonight.” !
Stunned #13 “Dave needs grace. But he does not need anyone to attribute qualities to him, which he does not possess. Please, people of SGM, STOP being enablers. STOP getting in God’s way by excusing sin in Dave and CJ’s lives, as well as the other SGM leaders. As long as you support them (with anything but love and friendship), these men will NEVER need to fully come to Jesus. Please, if you love them at all, get out of God’s way! Allow God to work and stop protecting horrible behavior.
How much longer will you do this? How long before you realize that enabling is not love, but is only harming these poor little creations of God? It is time. Step away and learn the true love, grace and freedom in Jesus for your own hearts. You wouldn’t believe how good the air is out here.”
Elsie #17 “After reading about tonight’s meeting, I was moved to pray, and the Lord laid on my heart to pray specifically for a spirit of conviction to fall upon Dave and the church tonight, and for everyone in that room to be moved to repentance as each has need. I know that Satan, the father of lies, often convinces God’s people to be fearful of transparency, to dread truth to be exposed for fear of shame, humiliation, and rejection. But it is such a lie! When we are transparent and truthful about our own sin because of the Holy Spirit’s conviction (not the condemnation of others’ sin-sniffing), and we humbly confess our sins, we are FREED from Satan’s lies and we can then see the truth clearly, knowing God’s forgiveness and sometimes even men’s forgiveness.”
Brother’s and sisters, as many have already said, lets be in prayer for this meeting at CFC, especially for Dave. I have seen a profound work of the Holy Spirit in men who genuinely repented of their sin regarding the deception and abuse of God’s people. In their brokenness they begin to see what they were unable to see before. Scales fall from their eyes and the truth and reality of their sin affects them profoundly. This is the awesome work of the Holy Spirit and is why the blogging world has remained insistent that SGM REPENT…. it is so that they can be free.
Without repentance they will not see and no one will be reconciled or healed. So church, let’s carry our brother’s and sister’s burden tonight, that the Holy Spirit of God Almighty falls upon everyone present and God has His way with His people.
I didnt see this posted yet. Brent has a new post up about the meeting tonight at Cov Fel. Some details about past abuses.
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2012/3/4/dave-harveys-deceitful-leadership-covered-up-and-left-uninve.html
I also think it’d be interesting for SGMers to consider why these sorts of revelations seem so devastating.
In “normal” Christianity, there’s still a level of pressure put on PKs (pastors’ kids) and the pastors themselves. The Bible does tell us that a leader must have his “household in order.”
But I think in “normal” Christianity, there’s much less a sense that a PK’s youthful issues would somehow invalidate his or her dad and the dad’s ministry.
In SGM, however, the way that pastors are elevated and given authority and placed on a pedestal is due in large part to the pastor’s “successful Christian lifestyle” – as evidenced by his “orderly” family and kids who all toe the SGM line.
I’ve long gotten the sense that the main reason the Mahaney ladies blog and write their books is because they see their lives and their lifestyle as setting some sort of example…almost like one big long advertisement for their dad’s “sound theology.” Conversely, I think CJ sees his daughters’ “successful” adult lives as proof of his own worthiness to teach and to lead. That’s why they’re so free with their pretty sepia-toned vacation photos and shots of their nice granite countertops and well-appointed homes.
Deeply embedded in the SGM mindset is the belief that a pastor’s teachings are validated by the outward behavior of his family. SGMers have been taught to put a great deal of stock – indeed, have a great deal of something very closely resembling PRIDE – in this. When we were part of our SGM church, I can totally remember the wide-eyed admiration everyone had for the exemplary lives they knew their pastors (and pastors’ families) led.
The idea that SGM is a superior organization because it places higher standards upon its pastors’ personal lives is what I think SGMers are going to have to grapple with – and overcome – in the days ahead.
I would highly recommend reading Brent’s latest post. While I know that some of you have grown weary of Brent’s dogged persistence in hammering away at the same old themes, I think this new post will help people to get a better handle on other aspects of Dave Harvey’s issues.
Related to my #41 is something interesting that was just emailed to me. Along with a sound file, someone sent me the following transcript of an excerpt from a sermon by CJ Mahaney:
The idea that an SGM pastor has the authority he has because of his own above-reproach lifestyle is something deeply embedded in the SGM culture.
“Dave has also been covering up serious issues in his family for a long time. These clearly disqualify him from Christian ministry” ( Brent’s latest)
I don’t know what’s up, but I find the mentality that what grown kids do disqualifies Daddy to be crappola. Eli did not discipline his kids and God brought judgement on him, but Samuel’s kids did not turn out godly either and God did not judge him for it. One can presume that Samuel tried hard and Eli did not.
God is my father. I am His own adopted child. Is God a rotten Dad because of things I do?
David had Absalom, and he also had Solomon. Timothy’s father was not even saved and he turned out great. Isn’t there more to it than only Daddy?
I know a pastor with three sons, two in ministry and one in drug rehab. Come on, don’t the choices of the kids play a part in how they turn out?
Franklin Graham went through a rebellion for years, he turned back to the Lord in his 30s. Jack Miller (great guy, started World Harvest Missions) wrote a book called Come Back Barbara about one of his children who took a rebellious immoral path for years (now married to a pastor).
My husband is a good father. I could hold up our child who is active at church and considering missions, or I could hold up the one who works hard at his job and is a good husband but has many doubts about Christianity. I could hold up another who reads Jonathan Edwards and John Piper, or the one who wastes hours on (in my opinion) stupid video games. They all had the same dad.
Kids make choices. I know over at CCEF, kids with big problems as young as 14-15 are treated as adults making bad choices. That’s young!!! I talked to a counselor there once about one of my kids acting up at age 15 (lies and sneaky behaviors) and I wanted to take the blame, and they insisted that I stop it and recognize that the child was making bad choices.
I don’t have all the answers. But this sick church culture where a teen kisses a girl or sneaks off to an exciting R movie or tries a lungful of pot, and Daddy is immediately disqualified forever from ministry, is just stupid.
A couple thoughts:
I am struggling with what I should read and not read, especially if some of Dave’s issues involve his family. It is getting into that “none of my business” arena. And, while I do not believe that Brent has been guilty of slander, at what point am I just as guilty if I come to the blogs tonight hoping to read info on Dave’s family? I am just thinking out loud here, and wondering what the rest of you are thinking. I certainly want to pray tonight.
In reality, I scratch my head sometimes and wonder if I should be reading or posting at all. What I keep coming back to is accountability. SGM has put themselves into a position where the only accountability they ever received started with the blogs. Furthermore, without the internet, who would have seen Brent’s documents? Without the blogs and Brent, these men would have continued unchecked. So, while I wonder what my role should be as far as reading, I also believe that the SGM board should see the blogs as being God-sent.
When you are confronted about sin, imperfect confronters does not minimize your sin. I learned that a long time ago about myself – it is time that SGM sees it.
5years,
RE your #44 – :goodpost :amen
When I read that line from Brent’s post, it occurred to me that this is one of those things that reveals how Brent may not have yet worked through certain incorrect aspects of his own SGM beliefs. It sounds like Brent still buys into the assumption that a leader’s kid’s sin disqualifies the leader from ministry.
His religion is then based on the works of his life. Everyone is looking at what he wanted them to see.
The revealing and uncovering of the wrongs committed against God and and our brothers and sisters in Christ is necessary, but there is no joy in it at this time. I pray the Holy Spirit will reveal all that is amiss in the lives of these leaders, that they repent, and that restoration will ensue. I pray that they and their families seek the Lord with all their beings as they move on from this point in time. I pray that they know the forgiveness of God and those they have damaged as they seek them out to ask forgiveness. God have mercy on the children involved, and let the coming months be a testimony to them of the perfect ways of God who sent His own Son as an act of love to retore us to himself. To God be all glory!
@5years (#31) – No, for the sake of the Kingdom of God Dave was NOT right to “keep his mouth shut about CJ’s dark side publically…”
That idea is the lie that they have gone by year after year–that the Kingdom of God is better served by coverup and deceit than by truth.
To hide an unpleasant truth “for the sake of the kingdom of God” shows a lack of understanding of the true nature of God and His Kingdom. God is not all about unhappy truths that we don’t find out until we’ve been there awhile, that people don’t talk about but just shake their heads and give meaningful glances. “God is light, and there is no darkness in Him.”
I don’t know just HOW Dave H. should have spoken out. But to know what he knew, and say nothing, and praise CJ in public–that was wrong, and it was no kindness to CJ.
Kris and 5years-
I sooo agree with you! None of this should be about anyone’s kids. This is about SGM leaders and how THEY conducted themselves in all regards. It’s not even about doing everything right – no one expects perfection (except them). It is about what they have done to bring harm to others under the guise of serving God. It is about abusing their positions.
5years #44, I understand what you are saying about a childs ability to choose their own path whether a “good path” or “not so good path;” and also that, over and above that path, God is still at work, just like in “come back barbara” or franklin graham’s turnaround. I understand about not holding a parent accountable for that.
But it is still very sad to see the effects on a family, when a father has raised them in an enviroment of deception, and lies and “keeping secrets” for the “good of the movement.” When that father’s own “blind ambition” has so blinded him, that it became “acceptable practice” to pass on those very tools of deception to his own children.
I pray: freedom for Dave’s family, freedom from deception, freedom to be all that God has desired them to be. God loves them very much! I pray freedom to live genuine and unafraid and truly understand being “accepted” in the beloved. I pray freedom to breathe and not be judged. I pray freedom!