Kids As Proof…Kids As Pawns
March 7, 2012 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
A reader directed my attention over to what “IntheNICKoftime” posted this morning on the SGM Refuge site:
Pointing something out here about SGM families and kids.
Bridget is appalled that Detwiler would mention Harvey’s kids. But SGM uses the kids as pawns all the time. It is actually a symbiotic relationship where both SGM and the kids benefit from the relationship. SGM has the kids prance out in front of people to show was Godly men they are and how well they handle their family. They also strut them out to demonstrate the effectiveness and veracity of their teaching. So SGM Pastors have little compunction in using their children to further their career or their teaching or their control over the congregation. We see it all over SGM. The kids get preferential treatment from the church and in the case of sons, they get jobs in SGM churches.
Jared Melinger, Lord and master of CFC is the son of Ken Melinger, who is Lord and master up in Harrisburg, Pa. So there is a little bit of nepotism or influence pedaling there.
Father/son duos can be seen with the Kauflins at CLC, with the Shorey men from the Philly area, with the Sassers down in Apex, N.C. and the Richardsons out in Gilbert, Az. There is Benny Phillips and his sons in south Orlando and Danny Jones and his son in north Orlando.
A bit of a different family connection is the Donohue brothers, Bob in Ashburn, Va., and Jim at CovFel with Harvey. Likewise, the two Hinders boys, Dave and Vince down in Fairfax.
You have a similar “relationship” through marriages with the THREE sons-in-law of CJ that were employed by SGM churches (CLC and FCC/Fairfax). Ditto for Ricucci, Layman, Boisvert, Glass, Altrogges, & Mays. Kind of like a family business!
What’s up with all that?
SGM/CJ/Harvey recognizes the control they get when they employ members of the family. There is absolute fealty. But, if one relative should step off the reservation, the other can bring them back. If that doesn’t work, SGM can threaten the remaining family member to coerce the rebellious one back. Leaving the reservation, however, is rare. Father and son often have the same temperament. If dad was controlling and lording, it is extremely likely son will be as well. And why not, he learned, from the earliest age, at the hands of a master! Like father, like son!
And the two can share information and be in informal meetings anytime they are together, at home or during holidays and birthdays. They can play good cop, bad cop with aplomb because of their close connection with one another. They can connect/chat/gossip/conference with twice as many peole outside of the office. And…the father/son cache’ is multiplied because now you have a three generation display model to hold up in front of the people…”Wow, look what we have done!”
And on the flip side, when one father/son/brother/cousin/in-law messes up, as half of the above mentioned names have, the other half of the duo can be used to mitigate the fall out, mop up the mess, and spin the PR so that the sheeple in the pew think everything is alright. SGM makes on half of the pair the counselee and the other half the counselor. One is the problem, the other is the solution. Quite convenient.
So, while I don’t condone everyone’s kids being part of this, when pastors have used them as a cudgel to beat us with for many years, they don’t automatically become off limits when the kids mess up. It’s like Harvey sending out his daughter to do battle for him and then claiming you can’t hit back because she is a girl! The “kids” sword cuts both ways. The sad fact is that the pastors have used their kids as tools for so long. (There must be something in the bible against this.)
I think this comment contains many good observations.
For a long while, we’ve been discussing various aspects of what happens when leaders’ offspring themselves become leaders. One older post that continues to generate traffic here is The Mahaney Ladies And Their Truman Show. In that post (which I’ll warn you in advance is somewhat meandering and LONG), I talk about how the daughters’ seemingly pretty, pleasant lives and lifestyles are used to validate certain rather specific teachings about women and what the Mahaney family (and by extension SGM) would believe to be a woman’s “highest calling”…when the reality is that if their dad had not been C.J. Mahaney, celebrity leader of the SGM family of churches, it’s highly possible that they would not have had the luxury to make the “home arts” their full-time “highest calling.”
Here is an excerpt of that post, part of the conclusion:
I wonder how much harm the Mahaney ladies’ blog has done to the women who read there and come away with the impression – as I initially did – that it all comes down to “right doctrine” (that is, SGM doctrine) and nothing more…that if they just implement SGM’s teachings on “Biblical Womanhood,” they too can have glossy hair, sparkling eyes, and husbands who make enough money so they can stay home and focus on the “truly important” stuff like homemaking?
How many women are inspired by the Mahaney ladies’ teachings, are following all the SGM mandates, are doing everything correctly, and yet are still stymied by lives that will never, by any stretch of the imagination, be quite so wonderful?
Especially because as we all know, there IS only one CJ, and the Mahaney ladies have the corner on THAT market?
So I’m in full agreement with commenter “intheNICKoftime,” in that Sovereign Grace Ministries has for decades been a place where being a leader’s child is a position that can be a huge burden…but can also have huge, self-serving benefits.
I’m still of the opinion that the “sins of the children” – particularly the sins of adult “children” – ought to be off the table in discussions about a man’s fitness for ministry. From one perspective, it’s actually a good thing that Dave Harvey, SGM’s recent acting president who oversaw C.J. Mahaney’s absolution and reinstatement, was let off the hook for his family’s issues. Perhaps that is an indication that SGM has finally decided to embrace grace in a real way.
BUT, if that is really the case, then it’s like everything else that changes within SGM. I wrote the following yesterday, as a comment on the previous post:
The way that SGM’s leaders shift and change things really bugs me. I mean, it’s nice that life might not be so graceless and judgmental for the oblivious members who have only joined recently. But there’s something patently dishonest and untrustworthy about an organization that will emphasize a topic enough that it becomes a lifestyle trend for the majority of its members…and then, when that lifestyle trend proves not to be as perfect or ideal as leaders thought it would be – particularly when it makes the organization look bad – leaders initially engage in denial that the trend ever really existed, even as they are working fast and furious behind the scenes to back away from the teachings that produced the trend.
Then they present their new ideas in kind of an off-the-cuff manner, like the new thinking has already been in place for an undetermined length of time and people just need to get with the program. They portray any extreme application of their old ideas as just a big misunderstanding, which would be primarily the fault of the member anyway.
I can remember when this site was new, I talked quite a bit about SGM’s rigid embrace of parentally-controlled courtship. It seemed pretty obvious to me that courtship had been taught and portrayed by SGM pastors to be the spiritually superior process of finding a spouse.
Back in those early days, SGMers would come around and try to claim that young people were actually free to date and that nobody was really that hung up on courtship. They would point to a recent teaching from Josh Harris where he said stuff about how it was OK for a guy and girl to go out for coffee without there being a formal courtship relationship…and how his Boy Meets Girl book had been misapplied and that he’d never actually meant to set up some hard-and-fast system.
Yet it’s obvious that there WAS some sort of hard-and-fast system, at least among pastors and their own kids. How many pastors’ kids ended up with their spouses through dating? And how many got married through courtship? The vast majority of pastors’ kids who got married did so by doing some form of courtship. As did the vast majority of young people from families who had been part of SGM for a long time.
So, sure – maybe things changed. But if something can change, doesn’t that mean there must be some sort of open and public acknowledgement of the fact that the previous conditions actually did exist?
(And when is anyone going to apologize to us here for trying to claim to us that we were wrong and there were no legalistic trends?
)
I think a big reason for this slithery sneaky approach to change is concern for SGM’s image in the eyes of the non-SGM Christian world. Because SGM’s leaders always have one eye on how things might “play” to the rest of their Reformed Big Dog cronies, they are prevented from dealing genuinely and honestly with the damage to their own people, damage the leaders caused with their faulty teachings and legalistic approach to those teachings.
SGM leaders really need to stop being so concerned with protecting the organization’s image. They ought to direct that concern toward the people in their churches. Yes, it may be a bit uncomfortable initially, for the outside world to gain an awareness of just how wacky the SGM culture has been. But in the end, honesty can breathe new life into the organization – really, it’s the only way new life is possible.
To try and wrap up all the pieces of this rather scattered and lengthy post, I will reiterate what I said a couple of days ago:
It’s about the hypocrisy!
And, this:
I hope that SGMers focus on the important questions, rather than upon whatever personal issues may be revealed. I hope people think long and hard about what they’ve been taught to expect out of their leaders – and what it means when it comes to light that leaders don’t live up to those expectations but are nonetheless enabled by the pyramid structure of the organization’s government to turn around and demand that those beneath them continue to follow the expectations.
What is this culture that C.J. Mahaney has created and presided over for so long, anyway? Should C.J. be starting a new church? Would SGM really be any different in a new location? What does it mean for an organization, when one of its defining characteristics – the authority of its pastors, conferred upon them in large part because of their exemplary “biblical” lifestyle – is revealed to be more about image and perceptions rather than rooted in reality?
What do YOU think?
© 2012, Kris. All rights reserved.
What’s the Ennis connection? Not sure I follow where his name falls into place here?
I posted this over at Refuge earlier, so this is just a paste:
I have to say, that I think Brent shows very little concern for Dave Harvey’s children. I knew them when they were younger, and they were cool kids.
I understand the duplicity of saying, “This is how you will raise your children-or we will invite you to leave this church” while all the while your children are off running amok…but I have a problem with listing the specific issues of an adult child who had the misfortune of being born into an SGM leadership family. It just makes Brent look like the Jose Canseco of SGM.
The other issue I have with Brent-is that his focus is solely upon the leadership. He whines about ajudicate this, investigate that…but what about the real crimes that were committed under his watch on the board? Where is the call for an investigation into CLC and it’s handling of sex abuse, spousal abuse at Chesapeake and the like? He seems to show very little concern for anyone other than pastors.
Izze,
I can’t answer your question, but hopefully Nick himself will show up and explain his point.
—————
Musicman,
I share your concerns. I really wish Brent hadn’t tried to “play hardball” in a way that came across as so mean-spirited toward people (the Harvey offspring) who never asked to be raised in that world.
I’ve said before, I believe that Brent is still emerging out of the SGM fog and probably doesn’t have a clear perspective on all of SGM’s problems. If it takes awhile for ordinary members to get the real lay of the SGM land after leaving, I imagine it would take a whole lot longer for someone who has spent most of his adult life and professional career as part of SGM’s leadership…indeed, someone who was instrumental in creating and enforcing a lot of the procedures and policies that ended up causing some of SGM’s dysfunction and abuse.
I think Brent is still grappling with how much of the SGM-enforced belief system to keep and what he needs to throw out. It’s possible he hasn’t even gotten to the point in his departure of realizing that there’s stuff he needs to throw out. (Like the legalistic approach to evaluating a leader based upon his adult children’s behavior and lifestyle choices.)
And don’t forget the Altrogges up in Indiana, PA. Sr. Pastor Mark and his son Steven is a pastor as well.
I just checked out their blog–wonder if this latest blog post has anything to do with Brent’s latest attack?
I haven’t heard much about the Altrogges in all of this mess. Seems like they would be pretty pro SGM because of SGM Music–does anyone know?
I was a long-time member of CFC and many very close friends are still there in the middle of this. To be honest, I don’t know who is telling the truth anymore. All my former “heroes” of the faith are surrounded by scandal. When I ask friends still “in” how they are processing things, I get responses along the lines of “Well, they ARE human and we shouldn’t have put them (the leaders) on pedestals” or “Nothing surprises us anymore.”
This is so flabbergasting to me! How can they still be there???? :koolaid
This week I’m visiting a friend who was involved in a cult (and went though deprogramming) to get some help. Also, the dynamics between me and my husband are still affected regularly by the roles and burdens we sought to take on in SGM leadership. We are “free” in that we aren’t part of things anymore — but certainly not free in that so many we love and respect are embroiled in all this.
I babysat the Harvey kids…and I really feel for them right now. It is deeply troubling to me.
Meant to leave a link to the Altrogge blog:
http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2012/03/how-to-not-win-someone-to-your-side.html#comments
The issue of nepotism always bothered me. It’s one of those things people don’t advertise to their guests because it doesn’t look good. It makes sense that many of the original pastors at CLC were related because when the church only has 20 people, they all marry each other.
But, to carry it on after that first generation is hard to justify. The greatest concern would be that of “gifting”. I’ve seen very few pastors that seem to fit the description of “pastor” or “shepherd”.
Despite, the much talked about story here, Gary Ricucci has been one of the few pastors who seems to genuinely CARE for his flock. He is the one who prays for the sick. When a preschool girl died, he actually went into her hospital room after everyone left and prayed fervently that God would raise her from the dead. He gets to the hospital before the family. He has walked through countless funerals and weddings. Caring for people seems to be what Gary loves to do. I can’t say a lot of pastors in SGM have that trait. There actually seems to be a significant lack of pastors who care, but some probably do.
Although I’ve never done a topical study on it. The description of a shepherd in the Bible seems to be more about “caring” than it does about “teaching”. But SGM has made the most important quality “teaching” and “leading”. It also seems as in the case of Ashburn, “teaching” requires prerequisite “knowledge”. So, if you play that out, it is all about who is gifted to “learn what SGM wants to teach” rather than who is gifted to “pastor”.
I think the true compassion of a shepherd is a fairly rare characteristic, although many people could “lead” or “teach”. The chances that every relative in your family and everyone your family marries are all gifted for pastoral ministry just seems statistically very unlikely.
My mistake. I read somewhere that Ennis was related to Garry Ricucci but at your questioning I went back to verify. It was Pat’s wife! And on further investigation she lived with the Ricucci’s but is not related.
Sorry. So take out Ennis and put in Altrogges.
A friend asked me earlier today about what I thought about the latest volley between Brent and CFC. Here’s my response:
Sad. Very sad.
Where are the evidences of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance displayed by leadership towards one another or towards current or former members?
Where has there been true, open and honest accountability amongst the leadership and truth dispensed to the members?
The failings of this leadership screams for accountability to the flock because they have proven they can’t do it otherwise.
In the meantime, the lost are still lost, the hungry still go hungry, the wounded remain wounded and the gospel is not preached….
Whatever this is, I can’t really call it “church” as this isn’t what church is supposed to be.
We are calling it nepotism, when the word we should be using is elitism.
Nicks comments are right on target.
The issue is a clear lack of understanding by sgm about the huge double standard Dave and C.J. have put into place.
C.J. whispering I would never do that!!!
He used a kid to take over a SGM, So no i dont believe Brent is wrong. They wrote the play book and we are just calling the same plays.
One thing I have noticed recently is about how SGM answers when someone points to their hypocrisy in recent months in regards to former pastors being asked to step down for “much lesser” issues within their family or life than we are seeing of higher leaders now. It seems they want to divert the questioner by saying something like “We had bad practices, why should we continue on with our bad practices now that we see things differently”. This is frustrating because it seems that they “see the light” when it is in regards to them. I truly hope they see the ignorance in calling a pastor and his abilities to question based on the actions of their grown adult children. If they see a shift on how they dealt with pastors in the past based on the pastor’s kids behavior, they need to speak up and admit their wrong. Own it! I won’t hold my breath. Unless they do this, Dave Harvey sitting as SGM president for the past 8 months just looks so hypocritical.
Another thing about all these connections between families in CLC, I will say that when I realized their was this inner circle among CLC folks based on their last name, I felt pretty “left out”. It was very difficult to make friends with people who grew up together, and they didn’t seem interested in opening their “circle” to new comers whose last name didn’t have “power” or “talent”. That’s just an “observation” I had with my time at CLC.
Nick #8 — What is the Boisvert connection you mentioned earlier?
Just Saying, post #7, interesting you should mention Gary Ricucci as so caring…I would like to hope that he has learned better from the ignorant way he treated me and my family, but I would have expected that if he truly realized how horrible it was for him to say my ex-husband was not a pedophile, but “attracted to the woman she was becoming”, about my 11 year old daughter, or to tell me my poverty was self induced because I would not ask the judge for leniency, to keep the perpetrator from a jail sentence..if he truly recognized the horrible ignorance these statements, and other treatments of my family were, I would think that he would have responded to ExCler’s letter she has written for the past 20 years. Not a word has come forth. Someone said he has kept quiet to protect my family..really? I say not! He showed up on behalf of the perpetrator in court year after year..who was that protecting? My family has told it’s own story-the good, the bad, and the ugly! no, he is not “being silent” on our behalf, I can assure you! There was an instance of a very ugly rumor going around about my family..Gary actually told it to me. It was an untruth, but I was trying to believe the best, and consider it a misunderstanding. I asked Gary for the source, so I could speak to them directly, and clear up the misunderstanding. Gary refused, and did not even want to take the time or effort to correct the the gossip or the slander! My experience is that Gary can “seem” so caring, when it is the “right people”, and the “right situation”. I would say I have experienced much more care from Robin Boisvert over the years than Gary Ricucci! Yet, I do not think I could trust any pastor who has been part of leadership for as long as either of them, because how can any man rightly care, yet watch all of these horrible things take place in their own church and do nothing? SMH
@ Just saying
My experience with G. Ricucci is sooo much different than yours..just sayin’.
Izze –
You’re playing my favorite broken record. :D
These guys don’t seem to understand that if it’s really true that their underlying beliefs about a matter have changed (and not just that they aren’t going to execute consequences because “one of their own” is now who is caught in a legalistic trap brought about by their teachings/beliefs), they have a responsibility to their people to proclaim this change in thinking. They must proclaim their change of heart publicly, expressly, and specifically, to as many people as possible who were misled by the old teaching/belief. They have an even greater responsibility toward those who were adversely affected by the consequences of their old beliefs/teachings. To those folks, they owe apologies and, where applicable, restitution.
For example, if it’s true that they’ve now realized that they were wrong in de-gifting pastors for “not managing their families” (or some such), they need to seek those men out, apologize to them, and humbly ask those men what could possibly be done to make it right. Perhaps that would involve issuing public statements on the SGM website about how the old teachings led them to legalism that harmed men. Perhaps that would include open letters (also published on church/organization websites) that would lay out how the men were wrongly disciplined, maybe addressing possible misinformation that went out, and then laying out a clear explanation for how and why the leaders’ beliefs have changed.
Until SGM does something like this, where they are making a clear, honest effort to acknowledge publicly and specifically how and why things have changed and to seek forgiveness from victims of the old policies, it seems far more likely that there are new policies only because the same guys who so gleefully extracted vengeance on others don’t want that same vengeance executed upon themselves for their own bad behavior.
“Change” without real repentance, real tangible steps to right past wrongs, isn’t true change. It’s just more self-serving hypocrisy.
I went to CFC for several years and I will confirm that I felt uneasy in my spirit about Jared and the issues Brent brings up with him sound 100% accurate to me based on my experience. Kudos the men who supposedly are standing up there according to Brent because that church has a reputation that even if you ask questions you’re going to get talked to by cg leaders and pastors
Here is how I have first handed seen it work. If there is any person that can help me to understand the way this plays out, I would love your imput. These are FACTS.
Right now in church “A” a man in leadership is being cast out (meaning shunned) and labeled an “unbeliever” because he has chosen to leave SGM and marry a Christian woman (Also ex-SGM). They have stated that he is not ready for marriage since he doesn’t obey his parents anymore.
They have said these words, “OUR SON HAS STOPPED DOING EVERYTHING WE, HIS PARENTS HAVE BEEN TELLING HIM TO DO.” They are after all, Care group leaders and thats what they do….care for everyone. (tell them what the Biblical thing to do is using the SGM secret lingo interpretation of scripture which is NEVER, no really…no sarcasm here… they REALLY BELIEVE THEY ARE never never wrong) So there is now NO as in ZERO family member that will speak to the man from church “A.”
He is dead to his family unless he repents of dishonoring them.
In steps the Pastor A who labels him rebellious and disrespectful. There go all the friends now too.
I am not speaking of parents who are telling him to stop sinning…(unless it is against them) No, the parents want him to handle his home, taxes, phone calls, social events the way they say. He does not live in their home. Under normal circumstances you might say that maybe the apron strings just need to be cut. But the slander completely undermines that theory. Now 3 churches later these awful slanderous lies about the son are wide spread. He is in a forsaken barren land and the family said, “Aren’t you reaping what you have sown, Son?”
The Pastors of all THREE churches are in total support of the leaders. There is NO questions directed toward the parents. Not even the obvious, “get the log out of your own eye before you start hacking at your son.”
RULE #1 Don’t get married to someone even if there is no biblical reason NOT to if your parents and pastor don’t like the idea.
By the way, Kris, this story has alot to do with the old ways of dating/courting clashing with the new ways. Since no one in church “A” agreed with the old way, the couple did what church “B” does.
This was a disaster of epic proportions leaving people, familes literally stripped from the love they thought their family had for them.
Imagine going to a church for decades and something as serious as this goes wrong and you are left for the rest of your life knowing your family members choose loyality to a system in Sovereign GRACE CHURCH over LOVING YOU UNCONDITIONALLY. Forget about, “thinking the best.” Forget about, “they are the worst sinners they know.” Forget about, “thinking more highly of others then ourselves.”
Now that is church A. Church B is next. The TRUTH BE TOLD.
RE my #15 –
Recently, a reader wrote me and said that he’d been going through the archives and had come across the stories by M and K about the demise of their marriage. The reader was appalled that many of us here appeared to take K’s (the husband’s) side.
I answered him by saying that first of all, I don’t think a lot of us were particularly thrilled to be part of a discussion about a family’s personal matters. Yet the M&K situation was discussion-worthy in that no matter how M’s defenders wanted to parse the couple’s separation, one of the facts was that M was supported in her decision to NOT “follow her husband’s leading.” She was NOT placed under any kind of church discipline – as many other SGM wives have been over the years – for failing to submit to her husband. She was NOT counseled to stay with her husband, even though by all accounts there was no physical abuse…and many SGM women have been counseled that they must return to husbands who have physically abused them.
Apparently, because of who M is and who M’s family is, a new level of understanding and grace was extended to her. The old hard-and-fast rules for SGM marriages were laid aside. It was, apparently, perfectly OK for an SGM celebrity’s daughter to refuse to move when her husband wanted to move.
Now, as I said when all of this happened last May, I personally had a great deal of sympathy for M and totally understood why she did not want to leave her parents and the only life she’d known, to move to a strange country with 5 little kids. I could put myself in her position and empathize.
The fact is, SGM was wrong in the harsh counsel that pastors were taught to give wives. There were many situations that SGM pastors grievously mishandled, in terms of unyieldingly and unquestioningly instructing wives that they’d be sinning to not follow and submit to their husbands’ leading.
So if SGM had changed its position, and a new-‘n’-improved grace-filled marriage counseling was now the norm, great.
But – again – if that were the case, then wow, what a whole lot of undoing and repenting and back-pedaling they’d have ahead of them! What a lot of wives they’d need to track down and apologize to! What a lot of explaining they’d have to do to everyone who’d been adversely affected by their old hardline position!
As far as I know, none of this has yet happened. So, whether any thinking/beliefs/teachings about wives’ following their husbands’ leading has actually changed or not remains unknown, except in at least one high-profile case where the ordinary rules and counsel were bent to accommodate the desires of one of their celebrity leaders.
The wrong here is not about the sins or missteps of the individuals. The wrong is, as I keep saying, the hypocrisy – the different standards enjoyed by leaders, versus the standards applied to ordinary run-of-the-mill members.
I don’t know….On one hand, I feel like Brent shouldn’t have brought up Dave’s kids…especially grown kids. But, on the other hand…well…I think it’s totally germane.
Here’s why…
Dave’s kids didn’t just wake up one day and say “I’m going to turn my back on everything I’ve believed and rebel.” Nope, their stories started many years ago. Perhaps Dave has zero control over how his kids have ended up as adults. BUT…the point isn’t that his kids are having issues. The point is that had Dave done whatever necessary back when the problems started, he wouldn’t have to call him out on it now. (I’m thinking “everything possible” would have involved leaving SGM altogether and finding a new church)
If he had listened to CJ in 2004, perhaps that one son would be OK today (OK is relative as OK to SGM is probably different than OK to the rest of the world). If he had listened to CJ in 2004 and the son went wayward anyway, then Dave might not have been held to account for his son’s actions.
I don’t know if that makes sense. But, I “get” why Brent did what he did. It’s not pretty, but I feel like in ways, it was necessary.
And ErciNS….I betcha the first “pastors” were not getting fat paychecks, having fancy offices, a fancy church building and half-a-million-dollar houses either. There is a church in my town that is run much like what it seems that your pastors are trying to convince your church is “biblical.” I’d say their model (the church in my town) is more what the NT definitions had in mind. The church is run by “elder leaders.” Those guys are not on staff and, while they may take a small stipend, they are not paid staff of the church. There might be one guy who is “staff.” They share the duties of running the church and giving sermons. It’s a beautiful thing and it works really well. I even think the main guy wrote a book about it. If you PM me, I’ll get the title for you.
Sid
I always hated it when SGM pastors would flaunt the success of their kids as an example of what a failed christian I was :( My bad for haveing a less then stellar upbringing , going to public school and haveing to work for a living :P
I do agree with Brent bringing up the kids. Like others have said its not like they just turned 19 moved out of the house and became crack monkeys ……
Just because I’m a statistics nerd, how many pastors in SGM are related? And how many pastors are there total?
I counted 31 in Kris’s post, and there are 86 SGM churches (yes?), and assuming 3 pastors per church (a safe guess), 31 out of 258 pastors are related. Or a ratio of 1:33, amounting to 12% of the total pastors. Can someone provide better numbers?
@Kris #18 –
SGM has really painted themselves into a corner here. Their theology has put leadership in the position of having a special connection to God that normal sheeple (I don’t know who came up with that word, but I love it) just don’t have. They seem to somehow be mystically protected from being wrong when they speak into the lives of their followers – I know this has been mentioned before, but it’s sort of like the Pope’s “Ex Cathedra” on steroids, because it goes a lot further and is a lot more intrusive into the small details of individual situations.
When these troubling issues hit the leadership themselves and they need to adjust course to save face, they usually claim to have come to a “better understanding” of truth… unfortunately, that presents them with a logical conundrum. Either they were wrong before (meaning they don’t really have that special connection with God), or God changed His mind (and who’s gonna buy that?).
They can’t win. :beat
One possibly beneficial result of the dragging of a few adult children of sgm leaders into the spotlight, it seems to have finally woken up the next generation to reflect and comment on the serious issues confronting their denomination.
For the past four, I have heard nary a peep out of them. But now, the Harvey Reality Show is causing lots of flack among the youth, especially those who know the Harvey family.
No matter what opinions are held about this case, it is good for the younger generation to consider what is happening and begin to participate in the solution. They are the future and they should not put their heads in the sand or tape their mouths shut.
I’ve been following this blog since pretty much the beginning and one thing I have noticed is that most of the people on here are forgiving, humble, quick to admit fault and very concerned for those wounded in the church. What a contrast to what we are seeing from some of the men who lead SGM. While I do have compassion on the Harvey kids and will pray for them, it’s pretty obvious that what the Mahaney and Harvey families are experiencing is directly related to the lack of humility in the men who lead these families.
I have shared this before but still it always baffles me how SGM can claim they believe in a “sovereign grace” where God only elects certain individuals to salvation and hold pastors accountable for especially the actions of a pastor’s adult children. Why blame a parent when they claim it is God who decides who becomes saved. Those not “elected” to salvation have the “total depravity” which is what the “T” stands for in TULIP which gives the 5 points of Calvinism.
SGM’s actions seem to indicate they really don’t believe in this doctrine.
With that said it is sad that they have applied this standard to SOME pastors. It seems like top leaders and those related to other pastors (nepotism) get more “grace” then other pastors. It should be applied equally to all if they have this.
The SGM church in Spokane, Grace Christian Fellowship,has Bill Farley (Father) as Senior Pastor, Son as Assistant Pastor, Son-in-Law as Pastor in Training, all the Elder staff except for one is related to the Senior Pastor. When I questioned this type of familial leadership, the explanation was, “It portrays the example of the Levitical Priesthood of Father passing on the leadership to the Son.” Besides this and other obvious biblicaly questionable teachings,my husband and I left after attending only a few months.
Shocking. And to think they call themselves Reformed.
To All –
The beginning sentence attributed to me above by intheNickoftime is not accurate. You can read what I actually said over at Refuge, along with the comments between intheNick and me. All is good!
Apparently Brent took down some of the Harvey family detail from his blog. IMO that was a good move, although you can never really take back all the repercussions.
(I also posted this on the Refuge blog.)
It’s true that Brent can be criticized for this or that. But let’s remember something. He is doing this virtually alone! He can only be criticized because he’s put himself out there, “in the arena,” for all to see. He has made himself vulnerable. Where are all the other pastors who are not supporting CJ, Dave, etc.? Timidly watching from the sidelines, waiting to see what happens. Or maybe supporting Brent, but out of view.
Brent said that some non-leaders had prevailed upon Harvey to confess on Sun. night. That’s the first I’ve heard of anyone else actually doing something. Typically, it wasn’t the frightened “leaders.” Maybe Harvey wouldn’t have pulled out if leaders had been coercing him.
Of course he doesn’t do everything the way “we” would want him to. But without him, it’s likely that SGM by now would have gone on with business as usual, despite the justifiable complaints of those who have been hurt by it. Maybe it IS going on with business as usual, but I doubt it would have been exposed as much as it is now if Brent had given up, as many on FB have wanted him to do. And of course it was he who first really brought it out in the open. The stories of abuse were, sadly, pretty much ignored by SGM, it seems.
For the record, I’ve never met Brent. I just admire him for taking a stand.
To answer Tom’s question in #21, I have a feeling that “intheNICKoftime’s” list is not exhaustive. If we were able to sort through all the connections through marriage (where, for instance, sons-in-law would have different last names than their SGM pastor fathers-in-law), the list would probably get longer.
I also get the impression that the older churches and/or those with tighter connections to CLC exhibit more of this trend than the newer SGM churches, particularly the adopted SGM churches.
“Fried Fish” said,
Awhile back, someone (I can’t remember who and am too lazy to go back and hunt) made a very insightful observation, which was that SGM does indeed believe that as pastors function in their pastoral role, it is essentially impossible for them to make mistakes.
The reasoning goes something like, as they operate within the authority God gives them, they become equipped by God to do whatever He intends them to do. If that turns out to be something that harms a member – oh well, it was “God’s will” anyway.
I’m not putting this quite as clearly as the person who originally stated it, but if you study everything SGM has ever put out about pastoral authority, it becomes clear that they believe they cannot REALLY make mistakes as they do their pastoral work.
And the phrase, “…we have come to a better understanding about issue XYZ” – well, that is precisely how they explained the shift from using the term “apostle” to calling their area managers “regional leaders” (or whatever they’re called now).
I think they like to portray any changes they might make as evidence of how humble they are, willing to listen to what the Reformed Big Dogs might be “speaking into their lives.” Coming to a “better understanding” does sound humble, without ever actually admitting that their previous understanding was out-and-out wrong.
Since CJ and his SILS, and BIL, left there are currently no pastors at CLC who are related even by marriage.
Is it ironic to anyone else that Detweiler is now using DH’s kids to coerce repentance, similar to CJ’s threats against the Tomczaks? The difference here is that Detweiler actually revealed details about DH’s kids.
I’m all for reforming SGM, but I really wish Detweiler would have chosen to be the bigger man here.
Check out “An Appeal from Thirteen SGM Churches for the SGM Board to Stop and Listen” – just posted by Brent. http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2012/3/7/an-appeal-from-thirteen-sgm-churches-for-the-sgm-board-to-st.html It originated with the Fairfax church and is also signed by 12 other churches, including CLC.
Regarding an SGM leader’s child being sent off to a boot camp type program–is this common practice within SGM churches?
When I attended a PDI church, a teenaged girl was sent off to some type of behavior modification program–I think it was in Texas. I felt so sorry for her. She was homeschooled and controlled by her parents all the time. She literally wasn’t allowed to do anything. She started sneaking out of the house, and ended up being sent off to this school. I don’t even know how her parents afforded it as they didn’t have much money. I got the feeling that the pastors of FCC had recommended this school. I recall her brother was in about fourth grade and couldn’t even read yet. I was really concerned about what kind of homeschooling they were even getting. Those kinds of things really bothered me. I didn’t quite get why certain people would just take everything to the extreme like that.
I don’t read or comment here often, usually because I’m sickened by what I read.
My family and I moved away from SGC Fairfax after being led by God to live in another state. We were amazed and rejoiced at His provision for us that enabled our move and for us to attend to a sister (SGM) church. We had only inklings of the disaster that was coming to SGM.
Shortly after moving we began to read the Survivors blog. At first, like many SGMer’s I took this to be a bunch of ‘haters’ with an axe to grind who didn’t care about honoring God. I’m sorry for thinking this about all of you.
As we read more we began to recognize the stories and the people in them. This was shocking because we could verify the events and the people from our own perspective and the truth of what was being shared here was and is undeniable. I’m still disturbed that the veil of secrecy over our church in Fairfax was so well kept that we knew nothing of what our friends, brothers and sisters were suffering through at the hands of our leaders. I would like to think that had I known then what they were going through that we would have been able to come alongside and help. But something tells me that at the time I was so steeped in the cultish teaching & practices that I may have condemned the innocent in agreement with the leadership. So powerful were the blinders that we had on back then. Now that I think about it, I did act like this towards a friend of mine; nitpicking and meddling – sin sniffing – in his relationship with his wife as if I had some special insight only available to Caregroup leaders. If he ever reads this; please forgive me I was wrong, so wrong. You and your wife were such good friends of ours and we truly miss your friendship. I’m sorry for the arrogance I showed towards you and for the part I played in the whole issue with Vince and the leadership class. I was a pawn and gladly played the part just to feel like I was ‘somebody’ in SGM.
That was then. Now we’ve ceased financial support for SGM and will not again support them with anything but prayer for the truth to free them from the bondage they are in. It is truly a shame that those who showed such promise in their zeal and devotion to God missed His guidance so completely, becoming shepherds who abuse the flock. May God deliver all those who are still in bondage to thier “care”.
If SGM & it’s abusive churches really want to serve God’s people they will issue a public apology on a Sunday morning and invite everyone who has been under thier leadership to come to hear it along with thier resignation. I know that many wouldn’t come and for good reason but the offer needs to be made and the genuine repentance needs to be shown. But alas, I am an idealist dreamer who once believed that SGM really had something to offer the church as a whole. Now thanks to the failed leadership of CJ and his crew we have another example of a destructive, abusive, cultish religious group that is now imploding for the world to see and further mock God. This really angers me! God will judge them for thier hypocrisy and pride. May he have mercy on us for letting this go on. We truly worshipped a false god during this time in our lives.
Thanks for reading my ramblings, may the Lords blessings be on you all.
MAK #32
Still on Staff at CLC:
Grant Layman(CLC), Carolyn Mahaney’s brother
Enrolled this year in the PC:
Josh Murphy(is sponsored by CLC), married to Kelley, daughter of Gary Ricucci (SGM-PC)
Kris # 30
Other SGM pastor-son duets are:
Bob Kauflin (SGM) and Jordan Kauflin (Arlington)
Steve Shank (SGM) and Travis Shank (Phoenix)
The Pastors in Cuba are father and son
Nathan Smith (Bristol, UK)is married to the daughter of the asst. Pastor, Peter Bowley
Another surprising connection through marriage is:
Beverly Butler(Dayton,OH), one of Doris Tomczak’s sisters and,
Bob Donohue(Ashburn) is the identical twin brother of Jim Donohue(CFC)
I knew stuff about the Harvey kids but I would never throw them into the fire for a few seconds of vengence.
What the hell has Brent mutated into?
Now, Harvey is the worst sort of two faced liar but throwing the kids under the bus, how dare Brent.
God has given everyone including our children free will.
I wouldn’t hurt someone’s family no matter who they were. And if Brent and his leadership cronies took my situation seriously back in the day, balance could have been restored and we wouldn’t have these self-absorbed monsters in the first place.
I am outraged.
I’ve just read the post from Brent re: the letter from the Fairfax church and others who signed also. I am of course, disappointed, but not at all surprised, that Cov Fel was not there. I thank God for all those men who were courageous enough to put their names to the document. I wonder how many other individual men would like to have signed but did not have the unity with their pastoral team members. I’m sure there are some like that. Probably no one would want to display disharmony within a church. It remains to be seen what happens next. They all need our prayer support.
DB –
What I find difficult is that all these kids are basically, by SGM’s standards, supposed to be saved and walking with the Lord. If they are not, and they rebel as teenagers, then the parents are responsible for their unbelief and their rebellion. YET, no one but God can change a man’s heart. I have heard stories of children not walking with the Lord when they were older. I’m sure some are saved but rebelling, but I also wander if some children were actually redeemed when they were young or just controlled? A person who doesn’t choose God by free will is not redeemed. Of course, only God knows the heart of a man and I am not here to say who is or isn’t saved. It’s just that with the serious control issues in SGM, you have to question if children have performed for appearances sake.
MAK #32:
Grant Layman is related to CJ by marriage. Grant is Carolyn’s brother.
hey this is d mays. i rarely read this site, but i was so pleased to that my family made the royal cut!!
to the writer (and readers), as you’ve alluded, my father works for sgm. he’s the geek in the back room making the website work. pretty sure nothing sinister going on there. (OR IS THERE??????? please. it’s the man’s day job.)
his niece married a riccuci. his NIECE, dude. him having his job and her relationship and subsequent marriage were about as related as i am to the queen of england. and again, he’s the geek in the corner doing computer programming.
seriously, GO EASY ON THE WORLD.
So what happens if all the SGM churches do not affirm the naming of new board members as put forth by the interim board? Will they just proceed without those not affirming? There will probably be some kind of answer to the Fairfax church soon.
DB,
You forget, Brent and crew don’t believe in free will. They are all Calvinists.
Funny thing is that they believe in Unconditional Election (God saves those that He elects to be saved), but they then hammer the pastors (unless you are Dave) for their potentially non-elect children for not being good Christians. Go figure.
All this activity by SGM to get the new board installed as quickly as possible, is to beat the letter from AoR. CJ and Dave have nominated potential new board members,then tell the churches to vote in the new board (votes were due today). The AoR report comes out and it may be pretty bad for SGM. They will say it is a new set of people on the board who the pastors elected, we are woking on a new polity that will fix everything. There is noone from the old board to answer any questions about the AoR report, but the new board says we will make changes. CJ and his friends head to Louisville to start a church. In a few months the new SGM board finds that Dave is over his stress and elects him Pres of SGM. Such a sham, SGM really thinks people fall for this stuff.
More family connections:
Bob Kauflin is related (indirectly, through several marriages) to Jimmy Cannon (SGM Joppa)
Before Jimmy took over at SGM Joppa, his dad was the pastor there
Jimmy’s BIL is Jason Reyes (SGM New Jersey)
Greg Somerville’s (CLC) daughter is married Josh Blount (Living Faith Church, WV)
These are just pastors; I can think of several more that involve staff.
Now there’s nothing wrong with family connections. I suspect lots of PKs in other denominations go on to be pastors, too. But I will admit that the inter-relatedness of pastors within SGM has been something I’ve thought a lot about. Hiring family isn’t necessarily bad — the person may indeed be the most qualified for the job. But even so it creates all sorts of conflicts of interest. In the worst case, you get what happened with CJ and his sons-in-law. In the best case I still expect that bias and preferential treatment creep in from time to time.
Inherently there’s nothing sinful any of this, but there is a reason why most government and commercial organizations shy away from doing it.
Yes, I know that Grant is Carolyn’s brother but my point was that the current pastoral staff didn’t comprise of family members amongst themselves.
Oswald –
Who knows what will happen. They may be happy to move on with only those churches that question nothing. It would make life easier for them with no push back. I am confused about so much of what they are doing right now my head is spinning . . . CJ in, Harvey out, moving to Kentucky, no membership agreement finalized, voting on board members who are in agreement with(?) the unfinalized church membership agreement, board members that were chosen by the chosen, only ordained pastors can vote (which leaves out many elders), vote in 10 days. Oh, I think I have it – CJ IS BACK IN THE LEAD.
yes, and don’t forget Franklin Graham is the son of Billy Graham…just because fathers and sons go into the ministry doesn’t make them evil.
Furby said,
I agree that it’s not “wrong,” per se. But there are very good reasons why even secular organizations have deemed it a bad idea.
These reasons – the potential for conflicts of interest, partiality, and so forth – are magnified within SGM because of the way that SGM leaders are expected to hold themselves accountable.
If SGM members had a voice in hiring and firing decisions, the nepotism wouldn’t be quite as big a deal (although still awkward if, for example, a congregationally-selected board of elders has to discuss whether or not the pastor’s son is truly the best-qualified guy for a particular position). But with the pastors making these decisions, the potential for impropriety gets amped up. The Bible tells us to avoid even the appearance of evil. Why would SGM pastors want to put themselves in the position of appearing to show partiality by hiring their own sons or putting their sons on the short list for the Pastors College, when there are other potentially better-qualified people just yearning for that same opportunity?
No, nepotism isn’t a “sin.” It’s not necessarily wrong. But it violates all good common sense, and it certainly doesn’t embrace the “avoid bad appearances” principle from the Bible.