A Thought-Provoking Comment
August 17, 2012 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
In the previous post about Redeemer Church of Charlotteville’s departure from the Sovereign Grace Ministries family of churches, a reader – “Empty” – said the following:
I have a concern that I have never seen addressed… I don’t know what the answer is, but honestly, the idea of churches leaving doesn’t thrill me. I am very anti-sgm… they sicken me. I spent far too many years of my life there and will never, ever go back. Not even to a church that used to be a part and has left. I want to be forgiving and I know that people can change and grow, but I also know how ingrained the sgm way becomes and have little to no faith at all that leaving will change a lot. I guess what I’m trying to say is, there is a certain sense of “safety” in being associated with sgm because I know to stay away, and many others do, too. But when a church leaves and is independent or joins another group, it is still going to have the same mindset and the same issues, just under a different name, and there won’t be that sgm warning label. I’m terrified of ever getting involved with something like sgm again. Nothing is new — yes, there is lots out in the open now that was concealed for so long, but come on, it’s been there all along, and many of us saw all the junk years ago. The main thing different now is that more people are talking about it after being hushed for so long under the “gossip and slander” cr*p. If they had left before it was looking “cool” to leave, they would have had my utmost respect. But leaving now, when they know they have a fan base of anti-sgm’ers? Um, no, I just see a bunch of churches going off on their own (or starting a new group) that is no longer associated with sgm but is still full of the same stuff. Yes, God can and does change hearts — but behavior is deeply rooted and it’s not going to change just because a church is no longer part of sgm. Pastors have been trained a certain way, and have patterns that have become a part of them — so much so that I have no doubt they don’t even realize how far off they are. I know my feelings are strong, but honestly, the only hope for true change and reform to me is that it all comes crashing down and any new churches start from scratch with brand new leadership.
What do you think? Is leaving the SGM organization an adequate solution for a Sovereign Grace Ministries church that wishes to address SGM’s issues?
© 2012, Kris. All rights reserved.
I agree with this post and have wondered the same thing. I cannot imagine a church that has left sgm would be able to change enough to distance itself from all it has embraced. Are they going to start having family meetings or classes called “We were wrong 101”? Unless by some miracle they repented and had the members all on board to the changes, I can’t see that happening. Something attracted them to sgm to begin with.
I am in agreement with Empty. I couldn’t begin to see an SGM pastor as trustworthy. I fear that they will just create their own little kingdoms/fiefdoms. Maybe they won’t. But until they can get out of pastoring for a while and learn what it’s like to be a regular Christian without power, I know for us sheep, it can take a couple of years to start seeing clearly after leaving SGM. How much harder must it be for a pastor who not only had to drink the koolaid, but to bathe in it to survive. Pulling out of SGM is a start, but no where near adequate enough to avoid not being as abusive as they had all along. (And yes, I am sure not one SGM pastor who pulled his church out thinks he is abusive. But guys, I am telling you, there is such a mind mess up there, that you were effected and it will take years to clear the cobwebs out. God may be leading you to remain as pastors and if He is then I encourage you wholeheartedly to obey him and follow that. But unless He is making it quit clear, please, consider doing something else with your life and allow the people of God to be lead by someone who was not in SGM or effected by its ministry.)
going back to the last thread…..
FSGP……you are sooooooooo funny…….
thanks for the humor.
A resounding “Amen” to this.
It is my contention that anyone who has spent any significant amount of time in this system needs apostolic and prophetic foundations either correctly established or re-established. This goes to the heart of issues of why we were in this thing in the first place. In my own experience, the real healing/restoration accelerated when I met genuine Ephesians 4 leaders who were able to help me work through these issues and help me to recognize my completeness in Jesus (Christ in you is the hope of glory) But here is the key. Those leaders have to be free of the desire to control and franchise God’s people. They must be men (or women) willing to “spend and be spent”, with no requirement or demand for loyalty to them. I would suggest that the “churches” that leave and those considering leaving bring in leaders as I am describing who will be able to work through these foundational issues, BEGINNING WITH THE LEADERSHIP. And there must be no sacred cows. Some of these pastors who have been in place for years may need to step down, at least for a season, while their genuine NT gifting can be discerned (has God called them or were they simply appointed by men?) And if they are genuinely called, their own souls need to be healed and the value system of the world (control and manipulation) purged from them before they can effectively lead others. I pray not just for escape from SGM, but from the spiritual strongholds that dominate the organization, for every person (leader and non leader)
In the interest of full discosure I spent more than a decade in an SGM church. And one of my joys is watching people grow in wholeness in Jesus after they escape this system. One friend of mine, a month into his journey called me to say “I feel like I’ve been born again, AGAIN” I’m believing the Lord for testimonies like this to be repeated many times over.
Empty says it all.
K Brault is still the same man. He is no longer associated with an organization that breeds abusive men, but he WAS TRAINED by that organization AND rose to a high level in the structure.
Just because he no longer has a SGM trademark on his website doesn’t mean he is a different man, that he has adopted new ways!
He is still the same domineering, lying, abusive, controlling, deceptive man he showed himself to be at Chesapeake! He is just wearing new colors.
And Empty said that as long as he/she can see the SGM brand she knows to stay away. Kind of like the Mr. Yuck face on poisonous cleaning products. And Empty asks how many domineering, lying, abusive, controlling, deceptive pastors are out there now under new names in churches that don’t have a MR. Yuck face on their website!
Old Timer – from the last thread
I think they are trying it at the prayer sessions because it has been so long that none one remembers how the Holy Spirit works in Sunday sessions. The Spirit has been contained for so long that people no longer know how to listen for the Spirit’s moving in the congregation.
I think this is the way CLC is trying to bring the Holy Spirit back into a church that claims to be Charismatic.
I would suggest looking for two things in churches that separate:
1. Rejection of CJ’s leadership (as well as the leadership of others who have played along with him).
2. Reform of church polity and practices.
If they can’t hit both of those points, they’re only acknowledging part of SGM’s problems.
I’d love to see SGM develop a polity structure that required SGM leaders to be be voted into office by SGM pastors and then publish vote tallies to member churches. It would be interesting to see what other leaders might be nominated to serve as President of SGM and how the votes would add up for or against CJ. In my mind that would give a clear indication of where SGM as a whole stands towards CJ’s leadership.
I agree with Empty and the rest.
Anybody who has been functioning within an unhealthy, abusive environment needs counseling or some kind of “deprogramming” to get healthy. Man is “body, soul, and mind”…the spiritual requires all 3…“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” There’s some **SERIOUS** damage to work through when you’ve been abused spiritually. It’s accepted that people need counseling after being in an abusive marriage or raised in an abusive family. An abusive, unhealthy church environment should be viewed as the absolute worst.
Sadly, I’ve already observed some former SGMers make unhealthy choices in their new “church” selection. It’s understandable. They don’t know what healthy should look like.
Empty:
I’ve been personally struggling with the same concerns and you’re not alone in your strong feelings.
Even though a pastor/friend that I’ve known for many years “woke up and smelled the coffee”, what else have they known? How much has the previous authoritative mentoring and false examples of leadership/humility influenced and permeated how they analyze the necessary decisions, direction and counsel to and from others in the now non-SGM church?
The SGM filter isn’t replaced overnight with a new one.
And I think you’re right about the danger of some of them no longer wearing the “SGM Warning Label”. It’s much easier to tell the good guys from the bad guys by the color of the hats they wear. Some of them have new hats now but I think it’s going to be awhile before we know what color that new hat might turn out to be.
Character and trust is proven over time. It doesn’t automatically come along with a new label.
I attended a Wednesday evening service a couple of nights ago and enjoyed being in the presence of pastors that had decades of proven faithfulness in their denomination. The senior pastor has been in the ministry for 35 years and the pastor that oversees “Primetimers” and visitations graduated from Bible College in 1955.
We met with that senior pastor a couple of weeks ago for well over an hour. “Wisdom and the Word” are the words I would use to describe what I heard in the time we spent with him.
“The old sheep know the road.”
Sadly, we spent 20 years in the presence of mere players.
Roadwork said…
So true…how sad that SGM doesn’t “get it.” The old aren’t valued. Young men in their 20’s as pastors. The young “targeted audiences.” With all the scripture that speaks of the wisdom of the old, how do they miss it?
Maybe we can list all the things members of SGM churches should look for in a healthy church environment. It might help them assess whether to stay or flee and what to look for in another congregation?
One thing we have been gratified with in the congregations we have visited is virtually no deification of the leaders.
Whirlwind points out to great qualifications for churches/pastors that leave.
Sadly, you have not seen #1 happen in any church yet. CLC and Fairfax are being all graceful and playing the member card to let CJ slide. They know he has gone over to the dark side. I dont see why the refuse to call a spade a spade. The SGM leader has clearly had sin in his life as evidenced by Larry, and Detwiler, and Che, and Chuck Thompson, etc. Then there is the secondary influence from his leadership choices in many of the churches. Then there are all the de-giftings that he authorized.
It is as plain as the nose on your face, that CJ has left the reservation as far as christian leaders are concerned. He will be at the Lord’s table in the end, but for the time being, he has left the reservation…but no pastor is willing to say so publicly.
So we see several #2’s lining up but we have yet to see a #1.
Sad.
And just to throw something out there…
We have not heard why there was a nice announcement for Brault and the Charlottesville Church, while at the same time the Bradenton, Fla Church just quietly dropped off the SGM website and denomination.
I guarantee there was a deal in there some where.
**Non sequitur alert — read no further if you are really into the actual thread.**
Several comments in this thread reminded me of one thing that always stuck out to me about my SGM connections. Their prolific use of the word “sadly” [almost exclusively in written correspondence, never in speech] seemed very strongly connected to all their other SGM-ese. Beyond the general irritation of it often being employed as a dangling modifier, in SGM it seems to have a very passive/aggressive and manipulative flavor. I was going to provide some examples and a little more analysis, but I think it speaks for itself and you probably know what I mean. It prefaces any thought by casting a negative shade on whoever or whatever is going to be addressed.
Incidentally, I did a search on the main SGM site for “sadly” and it returned a ton of hits — mostly from blogs of the head honchos. Hmm.
Hopefully, you all will find this interesting. See what just happened? Who’s hopeful? You? Me? Finding things interesting? Who knows?!
Brent has a new post up
And just when we thought there was going to be nothing to do this weekend except look up all the uses of “sadly” at the SGM website, Brent put up a new post at his blog: http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2012/8/17/the-ethical-demise-of-sovereign-grace-ministries-part-2.html
And btw, Kraftig, I did the search, too. It’s kinda weird, you know?
What Whirlwind said in #7.
To elaborate, though, I do believe that God can work miracles in local congregations. That being said, there has to be some real, substantial change. The messed-up polity (that allowed CJ to stay in place for an indefinite amount of time simply because he started the organization) needs to be replaced. A model by which congregations nominate elders, who in turn select a regional and/or national leader on a regular basis not only makes sense, but it seems to be the most biblical…of course, that is influenced greatly by one’s view of apostolic authority…
This point has been discussed before but never a blog entry. This is certainly a good point that even if a church withdraws from SGM, they will in all likelihood still have the SGM culture. To change they will need to acknowledge the problems with the culture as well as repent of it. So far I haven’t heard of any real acknowledgement let alone repentance. You have heard of a little at CLC but nothing really significant.
It is kind of like the old statement “you can take the boy out of the country but not the country out of the boy.” Put another way you are destined to repeat the parenting mistakes your parents did unless you become aware of them and take steps to change or not repeat. The way that SGM has done church is so ingrained in the people including leadership that it won’t change unless its problems are acknowledged and things done to change them.
Some of the cultural problems I see with SGM are:
– Disagreement with leadership being called “gossip” or “slander” and its use as a way to stifle any dissent or even questioning.
– Being unheard of to agreeably disagree. Josh Harris even included in one of his messages about the need to do this. Apparently this is a new concept at CLC.
– The either agree with leaders or if you question find another church mentality of leaders.
– Leaders using the ploy to categorize “correction” regular members bring as being with a “wrong attitude” or being “bitter” etc. and leaders then using it as a way to disregard or “turn the tables” on correction.
– One leader having no real accountability and a lot of authority. C.J. Mahaney being the group’s “pope” is an example as well as Sr. Pastors that have a lot of latitude without really being accountable to others. Lay elders that have secular jobs could go a long way to change this problem.
– “Worship” of men vs. giving the glory to God. One evidence of this was the long amount of applause they would give when leaders were introduced, especially speakers from other churches, especially the “pope.”
– Regular members and lower level leaders not recognizing that leaders “above” them are fallible and to learn to question what these leaders say. Currently there is almost a “follow the leader” mentality.
– “Submissive pyramid” where people move up in the organization based on how well they submit to those “above” them and how well they can control those “below” them on the authoritative pyramid.
– Nepotism.
– Worship of the group’s reputation to the point of not calling out sin rather than exposing sin that might risk the group’s reputation.
– Group hubris where they think they are the “model” and found the right way to “to do church.”
– Leadership changing direction and not announcing the change.
– A one way of doing things mentality. Examples include courtship,homeschooling, and parenting methods.
Hey Brent…..
What are the numbers like these days for hits on your website? Like let’s say how many people read the last few posts? Are you getting many hits from the Gaithersburg area? Any feedback from current SGM pastors who respond in confidence and see the light?
Just wondering. Thanks.
RE: Persona #11
A short list, off the top of my head, and certainly not all inclusive.
Look for a denomination with:
A proven history of faithfulness to the sacred scriptures and what’s contained therein.
A proven history of solid faithful leadership.
Local leadership that’s not afraid of accountability to the congregation.
A proven record of missions and help to the needy.
Look for a congregation:
That is diverse in ages (mandatory) and ethnicities (admittedly more difficult).
That accepts all types, in whatever condition they are in, but points them in the direction of Christ and the New Life that can be theirs through Christ’s atoning sacrifice, shed blood and resurrection.
That focuses on prayer.
That ministers to the local hurting and needy.
That supports individual missionaries.
That’s not afraid to partner with other groups that also hold fast to the scriptures in order to better minister to the hurting and needy.
That communicates openly and honestly about their vision, direction and challenges.
That’s not afraid to change their Sunday morning routine.
That’s focuses more on the needs of others outside their church.
Avoid a church:
Where it seems too many of the leadership and/or administration are related by blood or marriage.
Where most all the membership are in the same stage of life.
Where most all the membership have all the same convictions.
Where it requires taking time to understand some of the buzzwords or lingo that’s often used in conversations.
That finds excuses not to partner with other groups.
Where the Sunday morning routine is rigid and unmovable.
That discourages a saint’s use of talents in the community at large.
That focuses on itself more than others.
That sees one gender as less wise, less discerning, less Spirit-led, less anything than the other gender.
That regularly takes “missions” offerings in order to build its own stupid building.
That finds flaws with every organization outside of itself.
Gee… Are we trying to avoid SGM or the Local Church Movement (Watchman Nee, Witness Lee)? More similarities than differences?
This was something I was pondering myself but also how many people that left the ministry and still carry some of the strong “beliefs” that SGM once carried. Not that some of the things that I learned were necessarily “bad” but the overall mentality.
SADLY, I too am not hopeful old SGM pastors can sort through all of the brainwashing they’ve had to find a “biblical” church model. It’s all they have ever known. For forty years, they have rejected all of the things learned throughout church history and reinvented the wheel. Can they now go back and start over? They have no idea what a healthy church looks like.
The other frightening realization is how much the OUTSIDE world has been influenced by SGM while we were in captivity. When I visit other churches, and tell them I am from a SGM church, they immediately rave about CJ. He’s everywhere.
There is no place to go.
What bothers me most is that this concern extends not only to SGM, but to many, many Reformed churches out there. There is something in the air that is encouraging them to become extreme complementarians, extreme accountability / shepherding, etc.
M —
This is a partial answer to your post #23. I read it sometime back in ’03 to ’05, and it is still salient today: http://gregscouch.homestead.com/files/Selfcritique.html
I am doubtful that any of the SG pastors I knew could change if/when they leave SG. The label may change but the product will remain essentially the same. Look at it from a bigger perspective. Did the denomination change when it switched names from PDI to SGM? I didn’t think so. Expect the same if SGC of Suburbia changes to Grace Community Church of Suburbia. If a pastor leaves SG, ask him politely why he did so. Three weeks later visit him and see what books are on his desk and shelves. Ask him what podcasts he is listening to. Ask him if there is a change in what he reads and listens to. Ask him how his intake of Scripture has changed. If he is reading CJ’s book on humility, listening to some permutation of “The Sweetest Place on Earth”, and prooftexting a sermon series on dealing with enemies, move on. If he is still wearing a tshirt from WorshipGod, T4G, or the PC, move on quickly.
Change is not likely.
When looking for a new church I would suggest examining these 2 things (among other considerations): the budget and the church calendar. Churches are groups of people and people as individuals tend to spend time and money on what is most important to them. The collected priorities of the individuals tend be the priorities of the whole.
For example, if you are passionate about mercy ministries and you see that a church spends $0 reaching out to the needy, you may need to look at another option. If evangelism is your thing and the church has no training sessions on its calendar as well as no planned evangelistic events, move on.
Also, look at staffing. Churches tend to staff the areas important to them. Staff consume a portion of the budget (money) and spend their time on things (calendar).
Happy hunting,
Former SG Pastor
I think the comments today are exceptionally interesting and insightful. Roadwork, your list of what to look for and what to avoid when searching for a new church home is really good.
Just a quick thought. SGM considers members unsaved when they leave there respective church. I know, I was asked/questioned/told when I left. As the churches leave, I wonder if the SGM mother ship considers the whole church unsaved?
As far as the current discussion, the horse can leave the water hole, but if that’s the only water the horse knows how do you get it to drink something else?
I pray as the churches leave everyone is completely honest and open. Something new for many folks.
Mr Stretch
Hey FSGP.
Really like your first paragraph. I’m trying to figure out what to do with all my old Celebration t-shirts. Can’t decide whether to burn them (seriously) or use them for changing the oil in the car.
Esso or Exxon? It’s the same old gas… They need to prove otherwise in word and deed.
Also, as I was reading Brent’s latest post, it occurred to me that we need look no further to find a great example of someone who has left SGM but has not seemed to repudiate much of the SGM mindset.
I’ve said on many occasions that I respect and appreciate Brent for the way he came forward and spoke the truth as he saw it. Although I have certainly not agreed with some of his responses to his critics – particularly the relentless way he seems to go on the attack at the slightest appearance of even the most sincerely and gently offered corrective advice – I still have to applaud the way he documented everything and worked so hard to make his side clear. You can say what you want about him, but he has remained consistent throughout this entire process.
That being said, though, I think it’s very clear that while Brent has rejected CJ and believes CJ to be unfit for ministry, he has not actually worked through much when it comes to the broader ideas and beliefs he was taught and then himsef propagated. I don’t think Brent has any real perspective on what is dysfunctional about SGM, beyond, of course, CJ’s own wrongdoings. He sees nothing ironic about accusing Mickey Connolly of engaging in cultlike behavior, but he’s never publicly discussed or even acknowledged his own decades of contributions to that same cultic system.
In any discussion of SGM nowadays, it’s important to keep in mind that CJ is not actually the problem – he’s merely a symptom of the problem. If it hadn’t been for the cultic dynamic surrounding him, CJ would never have been empowered in his years and years of autocratic behavior, his authoritarian abuses, his flagrant flouting of the rules he so easily imposed upon other pastors, and, ultimately, his blackmail of Larry T. CJ was enabled, by all those around him, including Brent, to become what Brent now so despises.
And until that whole system of thinking is understood and then rejected outright, I don’t think real and lasting and meaningful change can really take place.
I’ve been saying this all along, over and over again, but it remains true: it’s fine for SGM to change course over a particular teaching or practice (like promoting courtship as the “more godly” way to find a spouse, or putting pressure on people to homeschool). Nothing at all wrong with that. But if that happens – if, say, the Powers That Be decide they no longer want to insist that the “only godly” way to raise children is to spank them until they look all adults in the eye, for instance – then they need to clearly and explicitly say so, with the same intensity and in the same venues as the original now-rejected teachings were promoted.
It seems to me that while it’s a good first step for churches to distance themselves from SGM’s dysfunction by shedding the SGM brand, it might not be very meaningful in the long haul, unless the leaders and members all go back to square one and re-examine everything they ever taught and believed about authority, the role of pastors, accountability, polity, the theology behind being “the worst sinner I know,” and any number of other problem areas. Nature, as they say, abhors a vacuum. So does the person who has found SGM’s authoritarianism to be something within their comfort zone – and that includes pastors and other leaders. Someone who was part of an authoritarian system once will be far more likely to succumb to another such system (or continue in the general practices of the original system).
5yrs – ;^]
RW – I had more closet space, more room on my bookshelves, and boxes of empty 3 ring binders when Ms FSGP and I debrided our home of SG (and associated) relics.
Kris – #29 – Fantastic insight. To the best of my knowledge Brent has not apologized to those of us who were misled by all the years he smiled for photos with CJ, Dave, and SS and had his snout in the SG trough. While Brent is quick to yelp about the lack of instantaneous response that he gets from SGistas, he himself has failed to respond to those of us who have questioned him over the past few years. He allows no dialog on his website. He fails to demonstrate behavior that he demand of others. Every time I glance at one of his posts I am …
… exuberant that I am out,
Former SG Pastor
Interesting. I have left the SGM church I attended. I speak with the pastor often and it seems they, like many other SGM churches will be leaving very soon. The problem I have had is when I meet with my old pastor (We have met several times) I have expressed a concern for the “remnants” of the SGM mindset and wondered what he thinks needs to change there. There doesn’t seem to be much of an answer because he doesn’t feel like he has been part of the things that were uncovered in SGM. Yet, there are may things that have been done and continue to be done the exact same way. There is still top down leadership, although there is accessibility to the pastors, they are hand chosen men. There seems to be a desire to change but I really think there is a dis-connect between the way he sees the church and the way it is.
I don’t agree with empty on this.
What do we want Churches that leave SGM to do, disperse and disappear?
I personally think that would be a horrible outcome.
Churches have problems whether your in a sgm church or a baptist church or evangelical church. Their will always be problems with pastors, deacons, elders etc…..
I think that the real thing to ask yourself is do you fear SGM or do you fear churches in general?
I understand the theory behind what most of you are saying in your comments.
If i take the label off a bottle of coke and sit it in front of you does that make it anymore or less a bottle of coke?
I hate to break it to you but its not that simple.
I firmly believe God is all about closing the doors of at least the most unhealthy SGM churches. That would effectually disperse the members to join healthier fellowships or new, smaller, churche-plants.
I do not think God is blessing mega-churches. It may seem like it on the surface because they are so large. But, along with growth comes protection of reputation and the preservation of wealth. And, I believe that grieves the Holy Spirit more than we know.
We prefer the founding of new churches over joining any church that is the least bit impressed with SGM.
Kris @29 – You are completely correct on this one! How much easier would it have been for Brent’s message to be received if he would have been first to renounce and repent of what he and other leaders had done. I just don’t think he sees that it is the system and what it taught. He believes that it is “individual” character issues only.
Another Joe said, “What do we want Churches the leave SGM to do, disperse and disappear?
While I don’t expect it, yes, that’s what I think would be best. Tell the people that we have been under the influence of SGM for so long that we really don’t know up from down, and encourage them to find a stable church where they are encouraged to use their giftings, to grow, and to find peace and acceptance in Christ.
He also said, “I think that the real thing to ask yourself is do you fear SGM or do you fear churches in general?”
I don’t think I “fear” SGM…. but I have been crushed by what they have done to my life. And I do “fear” ever being in a place like that again, so in a sense yes, I do fear churches in general – because I don’t know who to trust. Right now, I don’t trust anyone. My faith that was once strong and joyful has dwindled to near nothing.
I had no idea my comment would become a post… I would have taken more time to word it and make sure I made sense if I had! :-) And, I know that people who have not had parts of their lives destroyed or damaged by SGM do not understand the strong stance I take. Not that it matters, I have no say in what happens in SGM. I just know that I cringe when I hear people getting so excited that some churches are leaving, as if that is something really great and means they are going to be different.
As Steve240 said, it is natural for us to parent like our parents – even when we see things in our parents that we don’t like, we tend to repeat those same things in our own lives – don’t ya hate that? Likewise, EVEN when sgm pastors see “problems” with the upper eschelon, they usually don’t see it in themselves (otherwise they probably wouldn’t be leaving – after all, if they’re leaving sgm, they must think they are different) OR, they don’t think they are as bad. They WILL repeat the same things, the same patterns, the same authoritarian leadership, the same style and type of preaching… they don’t have much other choice. The primary way to change is to find someone who does it differently, who gains your respect and you think “THAT’S what I want to be like” and then study them, see what they do differently, and learn how to be different. It doesn’t happen overnight, and in the case of sgm and their indoctrination, I truly believe it will take years, if not decades, for anyone who has been an integral part of this organization to get things worked out in their minds and in their hearts – I think that is true of us lay people and even more so of those who have been in leadership. Even if polity changes in a “local church” (am I the only one that gags at any phrase that I heard repeatedly in sgm? I don’t know if that is an sgm-term or not, it’s just the only place I’ve heard it…), and that is a very important change to make, polity is NOT the only issue. If you have a church with an sgm pastor and an sgm congregation (do they even use the term “congregation?”), you are STILL going to have the same wrong preaching, wrong emphasis, focus-on-your-sin, smash-your-face-in-the-dirt-and-tell-you-how-awful-you-are-and-you’re-not-worth-anything-even-though-I-am-a-worse-sinner-than-you-are, NOW-we’re-really-the-best-church, it just won’t be officially affiliated with sgm.
To say there will always be problems with pastors, deacons, elders, etc can be a cop-out and excuse. Just because there will always be corruption to be found in churches does NOT mean that there aren’t churches without those issues. Yep, disband and find a healthy church.
Kris@29- Your post is full of wisdom and insight. I too have wondered why Brent is so obsessed with bringing down the top dogs and not dealing with the root problems. In my opinion, a legalistic frame work for Christian life along with a very skewed image of God (character, perspective towards believers and the established new covenant) has led to many broken lives. It appears that Brent has a personal agenda involved that does not include exposing the law-based teachings that led to abuse of authority, judging other believers, dividing the body of Christ etc. True repentance isn’t just saying I am sorry and moving on…it is also taking responsibility and stepping down or moving aside.
I sense a movement toward God’s grace (Jesus Christ) in all of this and a renouncement of religion and all its dark glory.
The Mooresville church plant that Brent led was a text book example of the failings of their SGM belief system…not just practice. In fact, I have never seen such a clear example of a law based system in action across the leadership team and see it utterly fail…its like it was “pre-destined” to fail so that God could show up and turn on the light of his love to quite a few people.
I guess that is the purpose of the law…to bring us to the end of ourselves. However, I have seen a hardening of their hearts and stiffening of their necks among this group of SGM leaders. They are more concerned about their own reputation than admitting that their best efforts to keep and live out a legalistic belief system is broken.
Kris- you having left SGM- are one of the wisest….”unsaved” people that I know!
:Happy:
I’m a former SGM member now living in the Philippines. I have a 25 year old step-daughter who recently left the PMCC of the 4th Watch (Filipino “Christian” cult..Google it). She served them 24/7 for 5 years. She recently left this cult. However, what my wife and I notice is she continues, unknowingly, to filter all of life through this cult lens. It has affected her social skills. My wife and I are thankful she has finally left but we also recognize a huge “mindset” has been etched into her entire being. Apart from a miraculous healing, which we pray for, we understand she has been spiritually damaged which also affects all her other attributes. We are confident God is faithful in completing that work He began in her long ago. Having said that, I wrote an email two weeks ago to my friend who has also left SGM…his brother is still a pastor at the SGM church we attended. I told my friend that I belive his brother is honest and sincere when he states he recognizes the SGM problem(s)and only wants Jesus to lead him and his church; however, I also stated that although I believe this pastor is sincere, I do believe there is and will continue to be a SGM lens that everything is filtered through. I can list the evidence I have already witnessed but time does not permit. Although I have been forgiven for many years now and I am not what I used to be (Praise God), I continue reaping many of the consequences of my bad choices. God has been faithful in reconciling me and renewing my mind from my sin, but it has been nothing short of a process full of grace. I believe as we see the unfolding of churches leaving, we will recognize the shipwrecked pastors/leaders and congregation who will continue (most unknowingly)to filter the world through the very dim SGM lens. I don’t know the answer except a lot of love, grace, and prayer for those coming home SGM experience.
Free to Speak Truth –
You said:
“The Mooresville church plant that Brent led was a text book example of the failings of their SGM belief system…not just practice. In fact, I have never seen such a clear example of a law based system in action across the leadership team and see it utterly fail…its like it was “pre-destined” to fail so that God could show up and turn on the light of his love to quite a few people.”
I’m curious . . .
Do you think that Brent recognizes this?
What reason does Brent give for the failing of this church?
I’m sure you’re aware that Brent’s perspective might be different than yours, which does not negate your own perspective in any way.
Empty:
It’s tough. Admittedly, I am very encouraged when I see Bradenton “identifying and installing” both Elders and Deacons (separate functions) but on the other hand, I would approach any now non-SGM church with extreme caution.
(When was the last time you heard the word “Deacon” used properly in an SGM church and not in within their own self-serving context?)
These leaders have fed exclusively from the SGM trough with genetically modified feed for far too long. (Frankendoctrine.)
I would look for obvious tell-tale signs like:
Allowing the wind of the Holy Ghost to direct their Sunday morning.
A fresh love for the deeper things of God.
A longing to reach out to the poor and needy.
A discovering of wisdom from unexpected places and genders (Spirit-led members).
An identifying and willing use of members’ God-given giftings regardless of how those members view non-essential secondary issues.
A renewal of the love for God through writings of a variety of proven saints of God.
A sense of loss for what they’ve been missing for years.
An unstoppable zeal for missions to make up for lost time.
A bookshelf cleared (purged) of all SGM publications.
A new direction in worship – both in music and content.
A willingness to have patience with us before we exhibit any trust in them again.
Proactive distribution of detailed financial records.
And an absolute must:
Caregroups where the CGL is led by the Holy Ghost and free to be led by the Spirit in Bible study exclusively – not by a book or last week’s sermon. (This one in particular is a hot button for me.)
Again, thoughts off the top of my head and not exhaustive.
P.S. Can I trademark “Frankendoctrine?
“Caregroups where the CGL is led by the Holy Ghost and free to be led by the Spirit in Bible study exclusively — not by a book or last week’s sermon. (This one in particular is a hot button for me.)”
Amen, Amen, and Amen! I never understood how any group could consider themselves a church but never study the Bible!!! It was always a book by someone else, or the pastor’s message that we “studied” – and were never allowed to deviate from the prescribed topic. If I could count how many times I tried to ask questions or ask what folks thought about this verse or that verse… but no, they dared not let the conversation go anywhere but where they wanted – any growth or real discussion was quickly cut off. HUGE hot button for me as well – I’m so glad I am not the only one.
Roadwork @ 28; been using mine for painting projects around the house. It doesn’t cover up like the blood of Jesus (oops, I meant “the savior”), but there’s nothing like a fresh coat of paint! :Happy-Grin:
Empty –
Your comment-as-post & #35 read just fine. Ya done good!
I also agree with “To say there will always be problems … can be a cop-out and excuse”. To me that is like when somebody tells me that there are no perfect churches but if there were and I found one and I joined, then that church would no longer perfect. Yeah, and thanks alot for the encouragement.
I think we set our sites too low. I am well familiar with the doctrine of sin. But what about a holy people following a holy book empowered by a Holy Spirit to engage in life-worship of a Holy God? What about that?
Holy cow,
Former SG Pastor
Brent is claiming…
“11 of 13 churches in FL are planning to leave SGM because of C.J. and Mickey.”
I”m responding to random comments. I was just telling a friend today that one of the things I like about my new church is that the pastor is not promoting himself and is not “deified” by others. So refreshing!
Also, just this past week I got rid of my last notebook from a CLC class. It has been many years since I left CLC, but I had kept that one notebook. Now I am totally free and hopefully my mind is decluttered from the bad theology.
Free to Seek Truth (#44) – where did you read/hear that?
Patrick #46
email…hot off the press!
Roadwork #40 – an excellent list. Thank you.
I heard that the SGM church in Indiana has chosen not to leave SGM. I guess not everyone who signed the document wants to dissolve the relationship.
Roadwork:
Kudos on your #20 list the the “not all inclusive” statement. That would be a formula…we’ve seen where formulas(SGM)get us. Always need to leave room for God to be God. As we have witnessed, He has no problem smashing our formula boxes :Happy:
A couple of items leaped off your list toward me and that was:
1. Loving/Serving the poor/needy in and out of the body
2. Focus on prayer (Almost non-existent at my ex-SGM church)
3. Corporately/Individually supporting missionaries…not to be mistaken as “planting churches”
There are other items but these are foundational. I cringe when I think how much money goes into SGM conferences, traveling expenses for “planting churches” here and abroad. I was floored when I learned how much tithe was given to corporate head quarters by some of the larger SGM churches. Not a dime given corporately to dig wells here in the Philippines for clean water, basic medicine, Christian schools, vocational needs for those wanting to learn a trade…my rant. I know, I can find a church that does these things…I did. :Wink: