Departures
January 1, 2013 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
As we say goodbye to 2012 and hello to 2013, I thought it would be interesting to note a couple of departures.
First, Dave Harvey is departing from the Sovereign Grace Ministries Leadership Team.
Secondly, the buzz is that the Chesapeake (Virginia) SGM church is also departing from Sovereign Grace Ministries. There isn’t (yet) any official announcement to link to, but I’ve heard this bit of news from several folks and would be surprised if all of them were wrong. It’s always a possibility, or, like one of the churches in Florida a few months back, it may just be a question of timing. Have any of you heard the same thing? Any of you at the Chesapeake church want to ask your leaders if there’s validity to this story?
Finally, as a departure (of sorts) from the previous conversation, I thought it would be interesting to allow you, the readers, to have a go at responding to an email I received a few days ago. Someone wrote to ask the following:
My questions are this, I have read your blog off and on for the past year or so. and I don’t understand the purpose of it, how this blog is honoring to God? I understand that people have been hurt by sgm and I know several of them (specifically people in the [Church Name]).
Especially for you, since you were never specifically hurt by them. In my opinion it comes across as gossiping and slandering or in other words, beating a dead horse. I don’t agree with Sovereign grace and CJ, but I also don’t see how talking about how horrible they are is good either? Sovereign grace, although that have/had some mixed up principles they have and continue to preach and advance the Gospel, which is our calling as christians.
Also we are all sinners, if you find me a perfect church or a perfect preach and I’ll call you a liar or blind. So in other words, the exact same blog could be written about many other churches.
I guess I just don’t see what the good is in this? it doesn’t further the Gospel, so why?
Like I don’t see anything on here saying like sgm is teaching this wrong, so this is what you should do, or this is what the bible says. it just complains about what they are doing or have done.
Sorry for rambling so much, hope to hear from you.
Well, readers – any of you willing to help me out and answer our concerned correspondent?
Happy New Year!
© 2013, Kris. All rights reserved.
To Frustrated #61 and others-
I’m one of the 40% at CLC who didn’t vote. I wanted to, I planned to; however due to significant illness, and overwhelming family issues at the time, I forgot. (I would have affirmed the separation of CLS from SGM) I also have a young adult child who didn’t vote. I believe it was because he saw most of the issues as relating more to the older adults.
Don’t read too much into that 40%. It’s difficult to get full participation in voting. – Any voting.
5 Years,
I agree with you on most things as of late but as a total side note from this self confessed real estate junkie (I got it bad), in my opinion (and countless real estate economists’ opinions), real estate is a baaaaad investment right now. If someone wants a house, cool, go get one. But to buy a property for an investment, other than rental properties, would not be very risky. According to those in the know (not me), the real estate market isn’t going to become a good investment probably until 2025. Way too unstable.
Just thought I’d put that PSA out there for all the dozens of people who come to this site looking for investment advice. ;-)
Diane, yay! I am glad you saw my note. I was worried that you thought I had not seen your previous posting.
And on that note, Oswald, my brother, I read what you said, too. And my heart felt sad that you understood what I have been through. So many people forget that it happens to men, as well. I am so sorry to hear you endured such horrible treatment, Brother. I want to say something about God and healing, but it rang empty in my ears as I wrote. I have no idea what you are experiencing but I am glad you said something. Too many men suffer in silence so maybe you speaking up will help someone who reads here. Thank you.
Stunned idiotically said, “If someone wants a house, cool, go get one. But to buy a property for an investment, other than rental properties, would not be very risky.”
I meant to say, “would be very risky.” Please, ignore that pesky NOT.
Stunned
who kind of acquired some property lately and REALLY hopes it won’t all go to pot
In response to justme #44,
I think we have a difference in perspective. I view SGM as a very dangerous cult, primarily because of its methodology and the extensive harm it has caused in the lives of many a saint. I believe SGM is analogous to a family where serious abuse has been discovered by other families in the neighborhood. I realize each family might respond differently regarding the abuse. For example, denial is a very common response, i.e “not in that family”, but does nothing to protect those being abused or dissuade others from exposing themselves to such abuse. I believe responsible and loving neighbors call Child Protective Services (CPS). The blogs have been an effective means of sounding the alarm and, in keeping with the analogy, calling CPS. CPS in this case is the church at large.
SGM has provided plenty of evidence, over a long period of time, regarding their abusive practices and their reluctance to repent or change. Recently, SGM has reinforced their decision to maintain power and control over others (SGM’s recent polity position) and thereby continue their abuse. Thankfully, an increasing number of churches are making a wise and prudent decision to leave. The definitive action by members, pastors, and entire churches to leave SGM is what proves most helpful and loving in preventing further abuse and harm to God’s people. Vacillating or being reluctant to report and/or expose abuse is very harmful to those being abused, nor does it help the abusers get the help they need.
I believe there should be an appropriate urgency demonstrated by those in a position to speak out where abuse is concerned. I believe the spiritual well being of our brothers and sisters who remain in SGM is in jeopardy. Consequently, there is an urgency that attends my soul and is reflected in my perspective.
Great post, Uriah! I never thought of it that way, but the analogy is spot on. I don’t know if SGM could really be considered a cult, but they behave like one in certain ways.
Uriah,
I appreciate your perspective, sounds quite reasoned. i like how in the second half you also establish that painting everyone in a SGM church the same is not an accurate portrayal, and i’d add potentially harmful to them. you said, “an increasing number of churches are making a wise and prudent decision to leave. The definitive action by members, pastors, and entire churches to leave SGM is what proves most helpful and loving in preventing further abuse and harm to God’s people.” it was good to see the distinction made in comparison to those who do not leave, nor seem to express a concern for others.
i hope you have understood my concerns from initial response. those seem very pertinent and perspectives can be helpfully influenced by them, so as to prevent mis-judging people (as i believe you did in my case), and potentially causing harm to others; much like how folks say SGM members have treated folks harshly (i mean only the SGM members, not leadership). i don’t believe folks here want to do that.
irt BK’s house situation. did SGM say that the housing of the leadership was a cost issue, or merely the local area housing for those working at SGM and potential PC students. i remember reading the later.
since it wasn’t responded to from my earlier comment, “stalking” BK through google is OK? enough has been said both directions regarding the “should he have, or should he not have.”
i wonder how many of us could withstand the same scrutiny as placed upon BK and some others. i think i mentioned this in the past. personally, i WANT a house like BK!!!! WOO HOO!!!… ok, back to reality. :) i’m sure there are those who may consider my home too big, “christians shouldn’t have such big homes.” (i’m not using that last line to contest any content on the blog here, just pontificating).
lastly, i asked for any professional input earlier. it was waved off. i found that quite odd in a blog where folks are to find healing. maybe it was merely the context, but in all seriousness, there has been much cry out from many folks for professional, degreed, experienced people to provide leadership in SGM as it’s deemed to be an organization that doesn’t have the same. to call for something like that here, i would think someone has those credentials, shouldn’t merely be passed off so lightly. i was thinking it may be helpful to get some input regarding human-behavior, especially with the efforts that were employed to scrutinize BKs home. that seems kind of scary.
Uriah #105 – Wonderful post! Thank you. I totally agree and hearing how you explained it is very helpful.
justme said, ” it was waved off.”
Might I suggest that one can’t really know the reason as to why one of the things one said was not specifically replied to? That possibly, one can’t know whether they were waved off or not? Waved off, to me, seems to indicate an attitudinal disposition and a bad attitude at that. Saying that something was waved off can seem as if all the tens of thousands who read here are being accused of having a bad attitude toward you or your words. (In my opinion, of course. But I’m betting that there are others who get that feeling from reading some of your words.) Could it be that that specific question of yours was not answered, without it being waved off? Heaven knows there are tons of things I say that aren’t directly addressed. I really can’t say why nor can I decided that I or some of my words were waved off.
Nickname said,
I totally agree with what you say here.
One notable aspect of SGM’s culture has been how leaders occupy a different sphere than do ordinary members. The different rules about what constitutes gossip within SGM are a perfect illustration of this. It’s not “gossip” for a bunch of pastors to sit around and share personal knowledge of members’ shortcomings and struggles – even though they allow that knowledge to influence the level of respect they show to those members or do anything with members’ private information that would be the usual results of actual gossip. Different rules apply to pastors.
SGM pastors’ privileged status is something that feeds and perpetuates itself, too. Without actually being taught directly that their pastors are a cut above them, members very quickly come to understand this dynamic on an instinctive level. The way pastors use public praise is one of the more effective tools used to help create and sustain a sense of separateness between leaders and members, as well as to motivate members to become what their pastors want them to be.
This is why the various couples didn’t mind having their stories (and often, their real names) included in Josh Harris’ books. To be singled out and recognized publicly for living the SGM lifestyle well was hugely flattering. M was already part of the SGM royalty before her story, complete with journal excerpts, was featured in Boy Meets Girl. But having her courtship and marriage immortalized in a book as a shining example of how to do everything right just further elevated her…even though anyone with a shred of common sense should have recognized that telling the world you weren’t actually interested in or attracted to your now-husband until a friend pointed out his godly characteristics was a grossly insensitive and tacky thing to do.
Another odd aspect of SGM’s culture is that as long as you are now “with the program” – especially if you’ve become part of SGM’s glitterati, as Josh’s wife did – being open about your past sins is automatically a badge of honor, proof of your humility. People are taught that to give any thought to the ramifications of sharing certain information publicly is to engage in the sin of “fear of man.” Even if a part of her had wanted to keep her past sins in God’s own sea of forgetfulness, there was no way Shannon H could have objected to the use of her story without running the risk of looking less sanctified. Embracing one’s own “worst sinner” status is social currency within SGM…again, as long as you are presently endorsed by pastors as having your act together.
This whole dynamic of leaders singling out certain members for public praise is one of the huge reasons why SGM’s culture was so homogenous for such a long time – why SGM members all made very particular lifestyle choices. It also helped in a significant way to maintain a division between pastors and members. Pastors are the only ones who get to dispense public praise…they are the only ones whose public affirmations truly matter. So everyone under their leadership is motivated to strive for pastors’ approval and recognition.
It is like one gigantic dysfunctional family where the children compete to out-perform one another for the sake of a pat on the head from Dad.
If I had to guess, I imagine Josh Harris would do a lot of things differently now that he has begun to see the light and recognize (flowery soft-peddled language notwithstanding) how CJ used and manipulated him. So, probably, would a lot of those who gave their permission to Josh to share their stories.
One aside – it’s my understanding that at least some of the stories within Boy Meets Girl actually were shared using pseudonyms…but the details shared were such that even still, the characters were easily recognizable to anyone who knew them.
stunned,
you said, “Could it be that that specific question of yours was not answered, without it being waved off?”
yes, I agree. this is a great point!
stunned, previous comment was to your entire post… not just the quoted. i need quote lessons. :)
see, above, see how nice Kris’s posts look (and others)… :)
I do have a serious issue with SGM leaders giving the illusion of a upper-middle class lifestyle on a single-income. The stay-at-home mom issue has been pushed by Carolyn Mahaney all the while her family displays a pleasant, comfortable lifestyle easily financed by one income. While there are people that would say budgeting will get you this lifestyle, this couldn’t be further from the truth. Very few families nowadays can afford the luxury of an upper-middle class lifestyle on a single income, especially in light of the recession and high unemployment. What works for the Mahaneys and Kauflins may not work for everyone else, despite the opinion that a single-income family is “God’s best” it is something many middle-class families cannot afford.
I am sure it isn’t reality for most families and especially families living on one income the lifestyle that the Mahaney’s portray on their “girl talk” blog. I doubt most families can afford the opulence you see portrayed there. I wonder what friction the “girl talk” blog creates in young families that can’t be like the Mahaney girls?
How does it affect a father who is just starting out in his career trying to do the best to support his family? Does that wife and mother think she just isn’t good enough or not doing all that she should to make her budget stretch like the Mahaney girls are able to do with presumably a much higher income?
A lot of single income couples have to embrace buying clothes for their kids at 2nd hand stores, not having the nicest furniture and house, etc. all to pay the real price of mom being able to stay at home with the kids. It is a shame that Carolyn and her daughters are painting a fantasy picture that for most is unattainable.
Uriah………in response to your # 22 and # 105
This issue of personal and collective responsibility is a fascinating and very timely issue that is extremely relevant to the current SGM abuse discourse. All current (and former) SGM members must address this issue in their own lives and help their children understand the importance of this responsibility.
For those of you who want to explore this issue further there is a very good study guide and worksheet produced by the National WWII Museum that covers individual and collective responsibility as it related to the German people under the Nazi regime.
It can be found here: http://www.nationalww2museum.org/learn/education/for-teachers/lesson-plans/pdfs/when-they-came-for-me.pdf
The study relates to the famous quote by German pastor Niemoller;
“In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade
unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I
didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to
speak up.”
–Pastor Martin Niemöller, 1945
In any collective group in which ongoing abuse is practiced there are both individual and collective levels of responsibility that must be addressed.
….silence is consent…….
N.S.L.B.
Steve 240- #115
Your post resonated with my heart. My past experience within the SGM church that my family attended was greatly affected by this “standard” single income-mother stay at home. At a corporate church level, this “standard” was consistently taught but more importantly the culture among the people was communicated with much more intensity.
My wife worked a job.
The dirty looks, the ugly comments to me and my wife by SGM people who supposedly cared for us was nothing more than passing judgement (pure legalism). I cant tell you the pain these interactions had on both of us and ultimately had on our relationship.
My caregroup leader took the opportunity to call me out in front of my wife one day and challenge me “to live a life of conviction” referring directly to my wife needing to quit her job although I was unemployed at the time. Not once did he offer to help. Not once did he come along side us and share our struggles and offer to financially help. He made a sweeping judgement about my faith based on this single issue.
BUT
What really got to me in all of this was the seeds of doubt planted in my wife. Not living a life of conviction communicated a lot. At a minimum, my wife at least entertained the thought that maybe I was not a spiritual leader. Maybe I did not want to provide for my family? Maybe I did not have the ability to provide for my family…these words planted doubt. I felt like my relationship with my wife was being judged through insidious seeds of doubt. At that moment, I felt like I could be losing my wife.
Fortunately, we fled Crossway Community Church in Charlotte and have since moved into a healthier church culture where relationships are built up based on love as opposed to subtle judgements that create conflict and separation.
SGM- Not that it matters now to me, but if you are going to impose your elite “standards” on everyone maybe you, SGM, could offer real tangible financial assistance for families making this decision since it is such an important self-imposed standard.
justme, I am awful at the quote thing, too! Kris has posted instructions a few times, but this old gal just can’t seem to wrap my head around it or recall, when it’s time to post. :)
In comment 115 the first paragraph was suppose to be a blockquote where I was quoting someone else.
Free To Seek Truth
Sorry to hear your story. What did your pastor expect you to do when you were employed and your wife working to try and help bring in some income? Quit her job and your family be even worse off.
It is sad that SGM portrays a lifestyle where if you don’t make a middle class income then something must be wrong with you spiritually. I doubt most can attain the lifestyle that the Mahaney girls portray. Most don’t have husbands with apparent cushy pastor jobs and a rich father(C.J. Mahaney) who can fund extras that most young families don’t have.
Well said Quizzler #116! I believe you have captured the essence and importance of the most fundamental problem regarding SGM’s ability to do propagate the spiritual abuse of its members……. the silence and acquiescence of those ultimately responsible to stop it… the church.
There is much irony in this revelation in that the abuse which occurs in SGM is tolerated because members are systematically taught they have no responsibility or authority whatsoever to insure abuse is not tolerated, particularly with regards to leaders. CJ’s defiance and disregard toward CLC is a perfect example of this phenomenon. In SGM’s world, leadership is never accountable to the people. It is always the other way around. There is a spiritual emasculation that takes place which leaves members impotent to affect change. The irony is, members in SGM churches willingly submit to the knife. This is why I believe people who remain in SGM are deceived…. no one in their right mind would ever do such a thing. This was my own condition until the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see what I had allowed to happen.
SGM has recently codified the spiritual impotence of the remaining members of SGM as reflected in their new polity. I think your post #116 helps to expose the gravity of what is at stake and the responsibility we share as fellow believers.
I praise God for all those who have had the courage to speak out against SGM’s atrocities and who have voted with their feet and pocketbooks when their voices were ignored. I pray that posts like The Quizzler’s #116 will sober people, wake them from their slumber, and provoke them to action.
It is most freeing to shake off the shackles of SGM’s oppression and fight for those who remain in bondage. Thanks to all my brothers and sisters who return to the fray in the hopes that another might be freed.
Free to Seek has made an occasion for reflection.
We adopted a suped-up Christianity and an ethos of suping it up further.
One method of jump starting the fading je ne sais quoi that gave that suped-up feeling was stricter rules.
The stricter rules became intoxicating and bewitching to us.
And the gospel was, in effect, nullified.
Steve-
IMO, my decision for my wife to work was seen as a faith issue. I was viewed as weak or being less than because of our decision. Their expectation was to live off of savings and faith. Although my care group leader did not know my level of savings the conversation was especially enjoyable given their millionaire status.
As far as pastor Mickey, IMO and based on my experience, he likes to lob grenades and send his loyalist in to assess the damage if I may use this analogy. Then he can deny any direct influence on a particular issue and even state he is trying to take the church in a different direction. He is a very clever manipulator. Although recently many of his loyalist have seen his MO and left the church while other long time loyalist are recognizing this as “man-based theology” and sticking it out hoping for change.
That is what makes the caregroup dynamic so critical to their system. You see, we hardly ever if ever studied the Bible at caregroup. Most of the discussions centered around our perspective on the recent message given by Mickey or staff member. This discussion seemed to be more about our level of agreement with what was taught then really bringing more scriptures to the table and vetting out the topic. It was controlled. Further, there were regular meetings between our caregroup leader and the sphere pastor…I wonder what they talked about? It seemed that the level of spirituality of a person was based on the level of agreement with their “right” perspective.
Speculation on my part … how long do you think CJ Mahaney will WANT to pastor the church in Louisville? Think about it … starting a new church is HARD WORK. Even if you have a bunch of people helping you in the process. He has lived the life of Riley for the past 15 years or so. Now he has to prepare at least 2-3 messages a month (even if they are retred messages). He’s 60 years old … he is “starting over” … he knows the life of luxury and jetting around the world on a whim. I think the “shackles” of Louisville will get to him sooner than later. I think he will quickly pass that baton to someone else and end up “retiring”. What do you think?
Kris said in #111:
“This whole dynamic of leaders singling out certain members for public praise is one of the huge reasons why SGM’s culture was so homogenous for such a long time — why SGM members all made very particular lifestyle choices. It also helped in a significant way to maintain a division between pastors and members. Pastors are the only ones who get to dispense public praise…they are the only ones whose public affirmations truly matter. So everyone under their leadership is motivated to strive for pastors’ approval and recognition.
It is like one gigantic dysfunctional family where the children compete to out-perform one another for the sake of a pat on the head from Dad.”
I believe this is exactly how these messages were communicated. By exalting and lifting up certain individuals with certain accomplishments or qualities it was communicated to the body of the church that, if you want to be somebody in SGM, you needed to be like them, too. Your marriage should look like theirs; your children should act like theirs and your life should depict all things SGM. For a man to be recognized and then given leadership responsibilities, he needed to first be a professional (very few blue collar guys made it no matter how much they resembled Jesus), then he needed to be able to carry his own in a conversation about sports; he needed to have a pretty submissive wife who dressed like the pastor’s wife and wore her hair like hers; his children had to be obedient in public (and he had to have children– barren couples were rarely, if ever, accepted into leadership). I think the line between what was the SGM way and what was really Christian godliness became fuzzy for many of us. We thought that to be godly meant we should have families that look a certain way, talk a certain way, and live a certain way… the SGM way. We mistakenly thought that if we were honored by the leadership for achieving these things, then we must be pleasing to God and doing pretty well spiritually. This cycle was perpetuated over and over again. Sadly, I was caught up in this and promoted it through my life and speech. For that I am truly sorry.
Steve 240 @ 9:20 said
“A lot of single income couples have to embrace buying clothes for their kids at 2nd hand stores, not having the nicest furniture and house, etc. all to pay the real price of mom being able to stay at home with the kids. It is a shame that Carolyn and her daughters are painting a fantasy picture that for most is unattainable.”
This is so sad. The control SGM feels entitled to burden people with regarding decisions that are to be made by each family and for what is best for each family. Is this still being taught? I’ve said before I’m an outside observer of SGM so don’t know.
But this is bugging me. As I was reading these comments about homes and single incomes I got to thinking about comparing. If I understand correctly, Carolyn Mahaney was to be imitated…her family life was the model. So, one would have to compare one’s own life with hers to see how well one was making the grade. Yet- we have her speaking last summer at TGC on “Snare of Compare” and how sinful comnparing is. IOW- do compare, observe how well the Mahaneys are doing it, look at your own life, see how you are missing it, yet don’t be envious because that is a horrible thing to do. So now one has the burden of the guilt of envying a lifestyle that is supposedly the best and biblical way, and you do;t have that and don’t see how you are ever going to. Right.
She mentions in her Snare sermon at about the 22 min mark that God ordains all these things we do not like in our lives. She is going through a list of things we may not like in our lives…we wish for a better income, prettier face, nicer body, bigger home, we wish for our husbands to be the spiritual leaders when they are failing in that area, etc.
She says, “God, in His good and wise providence, specifically assigned this (undesired or event-fill in the blank) to you and me so that we might glorify Him.” They are “divinely appointed opportunities to glorify God.” OK-fine–that is her belief and I am not wishing to comment on that. So, isn’t it true that these divinely appointed opportunities would include the husband that does not have a job thus necessitating the wife to work; or, the husband that does not have the best paying job and needs his wife to work to make ends meet; or, the husband who is not being the best “spiritual leader” in the family and the wife is very discouraged by that? All these would be undesired events — appointed by God, according to her beliefs.
I do not get why the Mahaneys insist on their lifestyle being a model for people (and wanting confomity because their’s is the “best” way) when she says in this sermon that these “undesired events” in our lives (not having enough money to be a one-income family for example which would be considered an undesired event in her eyes because the wife would then have to work) are God ordained and we should be of good cheer because God will be glorified by them. Shouldn’t people embrace their two incomeness instead since it was ordained by God to give Him glory instead of trying to “fix” it and live according to how the Mahaney’s define it? Isn’t that going over God’s head? Not getting it.
Wow, such great posts! 116 needs to be posted again, too. This gets to the pith of it.
We know some Christians who are in a prosperity gospel/positive confession church, another doctrine which is sweeping American churches. I even heard from one of them, that Jesus was a very wealthy man when He was here on earth. What has been said in several of these recent posts is exactly how those churches think and teach, they are greedy and taking advantage of the needy. Also, how Job’s friends, although well meaning, thought and spoke.
I think another good point was made about the SGM church being responsible to help members instead of vilifying and putting wedges into relationships.
Steve240 – 115 says: I do have a serious issue with SGM leaders giving the illusion of a upper-middle class lifestyle on a single-income. The stay-at-home mom issue has been pushed by Carolyn Mahaney all the while her family displays a pleasant, comfortable lifestyle easily financed by one income.
I disagree that the Mahaneys are a single income family… Although Carolyn Mahaney is a stay-at-home mom, she writes books that are heavily promoted by “lady-leaders” in churches at ladies conferences, seminars, retreats ect.. And to the best of my knowledge they are not given away but rather sold. I HAD to buy couple of her books on our at the time single income budget. I don’t think women give much thought to that. Extremely hipocritical of the Mahaneys though. Do you think if I wrote a book on how to be a godly wife, mother, and a full time employee and do it successfuly anyone will promote my book from the pulpit? Just a thought.
I wish all of these guys financial success, truly, I do, but not at the expense of members, not using time they are paid a salary for to generate additional revenue, and not using their position to gain additional perks. As far as a COLA due to the move – it is normal for your salary to be adjusted to fit the new market value of your region. The other question is whether these guys need to continue to make such a high salary, given that SGM is obviously been a platform for them to do very well financially. I hope Bob rights tons of music and makes a killing for it – just not using SGM time.
The other side of why the finances are important is because it is closely tied to the leader worship within SGM, the lording of authority, and the way are likely to not speak out against SGM to preserve their own income.
One last thing. I have nothing personally against Bob. He has always been kind to me and he seems like a genuine, gentle guy. Some won’t like this characterization based on Kerrin’s story, but unless I see something different, it is hard see changing perspective solely on Kerrin’s side of the story without corroborating evidence. All that being said, no one made Bob move to Louisville. He chose to go – he owns the decision. He has chosen to remain loyal to the men who consistently affirm CJ, despite his actions. We could all speculate as to why, but I am sure he believes CJ is in the right.
Bookhead #101 – thanks for posting. I think that your input is probably more insightful than speculation. It does seem that many of the younger people in SGM really don’t care about these issues, perhaps because they (especially if they are newer) have not been affected by them as much.
UD2 118 Good Points!
Reminds me of Amway. Back in the 70s/80s Dexter Yager developed a business of books and training stuff to go along with the Amway business. He became very wealthy, not so much from selling soap, but from selling his books. He had a lg downline buying more of his books than soap.
CJ, DH, MM, AF, BK plus wives writing books selling to the sheeple wanting to live the lifestyle of the saved and famous. They rob God by preaching a CJ gospel, selling CJ lifestyle books at the expense of pointing to the True Gospel. But remember don’t waste your sports.
UD2, but, like most of us who bought books and music, you wanted to grow in the Lord.
Jenn, I appreciate what you’ve said about their right to make money and be successful, but that it shouldn’t happen on SGM time. That is something we may never know for sure.
Thank you, Ellie, for the hints on blockquote! Let’s hope I got it right.
Diane said:
Great points, Diane!
And for an interesting scientific perspective on jealousy (as opposed to the C. Mahaney version, which to me has many logical holes in it) check out p. 4 of a Psychology Today article:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200906/jealousy-loves-destroyer?page=4
They talk about jealousy stirring up different parts of the brain in men and women.
“In men, jealousy activates the amygdala and hypothalamus, regions rich in testosterone receptors and involved in sexual and aggressive behavior. In women, by contrast, especially in response to thoughts of emotional infidelity, activation was greater in the posterior superior temporal sulcus, a region implicated in detection of intention, deception, and trustworthiness as well as violation of social norms.”
The “reasoning” that Carolyn was presenting, with probably the best of intentions, would have driven me crazy if I were in person. Inviting people to model their lives after her, an impossible model of someone who gets free publicity for her books, does not have to even go on tour – many people used to go on tour to promote books – and so many other perks – what crazy-making.
Diane, thank you for pointing all of this out. And no, I am not jealous of you for doing so. :-)
@Wanderer #73: By “mainline churches where the gospel is not taught” I meant churches that have adopted a liberal theology and no longer believe the miracles found in the Bible are historical events – whether it’s the parting of the Red Sea, the virgin birth, the feeding of the 5,000, Jesus restoring sight to the blind, the resurrection of Jesus, or any number of other miracles found in the Bible.
I was just making a distinction to say, the members who have some into my SGM church from other churches already held to a view of Scripture that SGM affirms. They haven’t come from churches SGM would consider outside the realm of orthodoxy.
Whirlwind #140, I hear ya.
It is tough to put a label on the churches outside of SGM that do not believe
some of them are mainline churches, but some mainline churches do believe these things. And there are non-mainline churches that might have leaders who believe these things, but the leaders don’t emphasize them much…very confusing.
I see the point of trying to use a simple label to refer to many churches at once, but that can prove to be difficult….
Congrats 5Years on the bold!!! Whoo-HOO! Can you now do a blockquote?
Please be advised that if you use html tags to format your comments, you do so at your own risk. I don’t usually have the time or the inclination to go in and fix people’s messed-up tags…and I also don’t like a ton of bizarre formatting to muck up the page and make it hard to read. (In other words, please don’t do the fancy stuff unless you’re really confident you know what you’re doing…PLEASE??? Thanks!)
Diane#126:
EXCELLENT post! To address your question of whether the decision to be a stay-at-home is still being taught in SGM, it really depends. Sometimes it is not taught rather an unspoken expectation. In other words, if you depart from this you may just notice people distancing themselves from you conveniently. Sometimes, as in the other stories I’ve read here, fellow church members outright confront you or your husband for “allowing you to work”.
What bogs my mind is that this mentality has no ability to comprehend other people’s choices. Believe it or not, some women ENJOY working and find themselves fulfilled in a job(part-time or full-time). Some women don’t want to have tons of kids and feel they can only afford 1 or 2. Some women would rather not homeschool and prefer to send their children to a public or private school. Some women don’t feel it’s their Godly calling to marry and are completely fulfilled in that.
Having listened to a few of Carolyn’s sermons, I don’t think she gets that other people view things differently than she does. What’s worse about that is that she attaches the label of “Biblical” to her lifestyle to promote it as more godly.
And “two incomeness” can be very God-glorifying. Some women have gifts in tending to their homes, some don’t.
Uriah said, “It is most freeing to shake off the shackles of SGM’s oppression and fight for those who remain in bondage. Thanks to all my brothers and sisters who return to the fray in the hopes that another might be freed.”
Beautiful.
Pfft said, “The stricter rules became intoxicating and bewitching to us.”
Hmmmmm….
Diane,
Your post #126 was spot on. Only one problem. You tried to bring logic into it. Stop doing that, Silly. (Of course, our human minds can’t help but be logical, so if your life is not working out like the Mahaney’s yet you still believe them, you are left in a very painful place. Are you doing something wrong? Has God forgotten you? Turns out, there are a surprisingly high number of angry moms in SGM. Because, you see, they ARE doing everything “right”. They are knocking themselves out to trust God, keep a pure heart, etc, but their lives are often just not looking like it’s “supposed” to. It’s hard not to be let down (but that would be self pity, so you’re in sin and have to repent over and over and over again) or not to find yourself angry at things that don’t make any sense. Then you’ll draw your tree and root picture and end up with your sin that you are expecting something. Then you are wrong and in sin, too. Heaven forbid that the pastors just say, “Hey, we were wrong. Turns out life isn’t a formula and we DON’T know God’s will for your life. So just look to Him and He’ll show you what’s best for your family. We’re sorry.” Then people wouldn’t be living in this mental confusion/condemnation so often. They’d just go, “Hey, this is how life works for us. Good for you if it’s different.”)
UD2, good point.
Ellie and Marie, thanks for the help with the quotes. I had to say, it was fun to watch your first couple of posts to explain it.
Kris, you have no worries from me! I’m a Luddite by birth. New fangled technology? *grumble, grumble, grumble*
Stunned #103 — I appreciate your words of compassion for me. But, while I have not stated my gender here, neither have I corrected people who called me ‘buddy’ or other male titles, and assumed I was a man. So I feel I must do that now and state that I am not a man. Thanks for your understanding.
Your sister in Christ, Oswald. (a nickname given to me by my sister as a teenager)
Oh, ha ha ha ha! Boy, did I make an assumption!!!! Please, forgive me, dear Sister.
I will now always think of you as Wallis Simpson, my glamorous sister with a masculine sounding name.
Again, I am saddened to know that you understand my history and that we share that. But am glad for the new life you have.
Many hugs,
Stunned
Thanks, Stunned. And hugs back to ya.
It feels kinda safer sending hugs your way now that I know you’re a woman. ;)
Diego,
I’ve commented on the similarities between AMWAY and SGM on several occasions. The exalting of “upline” and the duplication of “everything upline” in order to be a successful AMWAY distributor is very similar. In fact, it’s downright uncanny.
We were in Dexter and Birdie Yager’s “downline”…Triple Diamonds Rick and Sue Lynn Setzer were our sponsors.
Who would have thought “a family of churches” would succumb to pyramid/multi-level marketing techniques to “build their business”…uh, I mean spread the gospel.
Looks like you did fine, Marie. Glad to help.
Ellie ~ going back to lurker mode
@ Marie 133~
Thanks for the link–that was interesting! “Because jealousy is accompanied by a sense of inadequacy, it is hard to bear, says Stosny, and most people convert the discomfort into anger, which they regulate by trying to control a partner—distrusting them, going through their belongings and cell phone call logs, making accusations, behaviors more likely to drive a partner away. “The trick is you have to control jealousy within yourself. You have to do something that will make you feel more lovable, because basically you feel unlovable when you’re jealous.”
Make yourself better and better. (Or at least convince others you are.)
@ justawife 137~
So- conform or kinda sorta find yourself being excluded. What a death sentence some women must have felt (or feel) going to a church where “we won’t really accept you if you are not just like us” is the reality. Makes me very sad for them.
@ stunned 138~
“Heaven forbid that the pastors just say, “Hey, we were wrong. Turns out life isn’t a formula and we DON’T know God’s will for your life. So just look to Him and He’ll show you what’s best for your family. We’re sorry.” Then people wouldn’t be living in this mental confusion/condemnation so often. They’d just go, “Hey, this is how life works for us. Good for you if it’s different.”)”
No kidding. But it’s funny because she does say something similar to that at the end of her snare sermon (although she does not give the SGM definition of what following Jesus means, but I am guessing it is more akin to following/obeying what leaders tell you to do rather than a vibrant relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit guiding you) so I do not know what she means exactly when she says we are each to follow Jesus while not comparing how our lives look to others.
I mean, if I had not been reading the comments here, the abuse accounts and documents for the past year and a half, I would have thought her sermon was not so bad–(other than attributing “sinful comparing” to Peter, which I think she reads into the verse). She says, don’t compare…you follow Jesus. I would be thinking–sounds good, but I don’t know if she is much into the freedom for the individual believer to live their life as s/he is led by Jesus to do.
“(although she does not give the SGM definition of what following Jesus means, but I am guessing it is more akin to following/obeying what leaders tell you to do rather than a vibrant relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit guiding you”
Amen, Diane! That is very astute of you. You CAN’T trust God to lead you. Your heart is wicked above all things. You can ONLY trust others to tell you what God’s will is for you. It’s so sad, ’cause as life turns out, God really IS big enough to speak to you, if you’re just open to Him.
Interesting post on The Wartburg Watch:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/01/02/difficult-stories-from-former-sovereign-grace-members/
Kris,
I accept your admonition about not using HTML tags if/when one doesn’t know what he is doing. Guilty! My #70 is almost all in bold when I was aiming for one sentence. Looks as though I was trying to overpower everyone else, like having a bumper sticker that says, “My Bold can beat your non-bold.” I asked Guy in a private e-mail to fix it, but I suppose it wasn’t fixable or he didn’t have time, etc. Sorry. Maybe I’ll take HTML lessons at our city’s senior center. I got the bold started but could not turn it off. My bad.
FO said, ” “My Bold can beat your non-bold.”
:D heeee
I actually listened to Carolyn’s “Snare of Compare” talk live on the internet when she gave it. I have never listened to her before, and I was half expecting someone somewhat arrogant and off base. Yet she came across to me as rather humble and gracious. She basically mentioned that she was not happy about recent events that were causing her to have to move, and that she was dearly going to miss her old friends. I don’t recall her at all putting forth herself as an example to follow. It was last June, so I don’t remember everything about it. The one thing I do remember though that irked me was her saying that “cj had to speak correction ino her life” over her attitude about moving. I wanted to scream at her that it was CJs arrogance that was turning her life upside down, and that it was OK for her to get angry. It really bothered me that he was turning the scales on her to make it sound like SHE was the one with the problem. Maybe her talk is still online?