“Wow’s” Story
January 21, 2013 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Kris says: If you’re visiting the site because you’re interested in the lawsuit filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries, you can view the original filing here. The amended filing is here. For those of you who are new to the site and are interested in understanding some of the assumptions and the mindset that could cause leaders to behave in ways described in the lawsuit’s allegations, this post from 2011 does a good job of connecting the dots.
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Here is commenter “Wow’s” story:
I haven’t revealed much of my story, and it doesn’t warrant the horror of the sexual abuse victims involved in the lawsuit. However, I read and understand exactly how and why parents accepted the church’s stance on these abuses, because I did the same thing in a different way.
When we came to SGM (then PDI, the original), my husband was caught up in living a very ungodly life including multiple counts of adultery. I was encouraged to win him over with my silent, submissive spirit. I tried very hard to do this, including much prayer, fasting, and worship. One day he “felt the Holy Spirit” enter him and gave his life to the Lord. I was so relieved, as were our children, that our family would finally be healed, as we had suffered numerous separations. He confessed to me all of his past infidelities. My heart was ripped to pieces, but through counseling at the church, I was made to see how sin was sin and I needed to forgive him and he needed to forgive me. God’s best, I was told, was that we be reconciled and forgive one another. All sin was equal. There was no room for my feelings, and somehow every time I walked out of there the focus seemed to be on how I needed to change.
Two years later, my husband got into another affair, this time producing a child. I wasn’t told that I had to reconcile with him, nor was I released to divorce him. I was instructed to seek God for an answer. Understand here is where the system speaks for itself. There is no glory or redemption seen in divorce (or there wasn’t at the time), so the unspoken pressure, if you’re to live up to the SGM family model, is to overcome the sin of the partner through forgiveness. There’s no mention of forgiving but moving forward in a manner consistent with the destruction a spouse has done.
I forgave my spouse, and we moved away from SGM. This ultimately was a great thing, because I stopped expecting him to live up to that model and he stopped cheating. However, I went away believing in a God who neither cared about my feelings or truly loved me, as He sovereignly allowed all of these things to happen to me when he could have prevented them. I was depressed and suicidal, but remember, it was a sin to seek outside professional help. I couldn’t get counseling or medical treatment. The problem had to be rooted in sin–my sin, and I needed my self-confrontational manual to dig it out.
When anger and resentment finally dared to surface, I filed for a divorce. I walked away from God, committed adultery, and did attempt to end my life, ending up in an ICU with my husband by my side. From that point on, he endeavored to love me like Jesus, religion aside. It took quite a while, but he became that husband that SGM men ought to endeavor to be. For him, it isn’t a role he’s playing in order to live up to the image, rather it’s laying his life down in order to treat me as his own body. I’m happy about that, and I’m thankful for him.
Why then, do I still resent SGM’s spoken and unspoken pressure to be in faith for my marriage? Because it was without compassion toward my feelings and experiences. I was the one constantly having to strive to do what they themselves didn’t know a thing about, but would they would learn through future generations of their own. I resent that I wasn’t told that God was as faithful and redemptive in divorce as he was in marriage….like I had to make the miracle happen with my unswerving faith. I resent that I was taught that spanking my children would change their hearts, and that living the formula would produce godly offspring. I now have godly offspring because God was faithful in my giving up on the formula. I was on a leave-of-absence from my faith for the three years following my departure from SGM, yet my children began to thrive when I stopped seeing only the sin in them and started enjoying them as the individuals God had created them to be. I adore them now, whereas before, I saw nothing but the sin I needed to weed out in order to keep them out of hell.
It’s all grace, I know that now. I’m still healing from the legalism and the formulas I absorbed. I truly don’t think they understand the hierarchy they create in their polity. Their own lack of willingness to honestly communicate true and deep failure works to hold themselves up in front of wives whose husbands’ real and deep failures seem so pathetic by comparison. So many wives have confessed to me their habits of comparing their husbands to the leaders, with the husbands coming up short.
When will they realize they are not serving the members while holding onto their pride? When will they say, “I stand up here and pretend to be more than I am so that you will revere me, yet I work to lower your view of who you are and who your family members are in Christ”? That’s what I want to see. Tear down the pedestals. Look for God’s redeeming grace in failure as much as you do success. Understand that we are doing our best to live godly lives in a fallen world, and for Pete’s sake, stop expecting us to be perfect in what we say or do, and how we deal with our concerns with you. Listen. Hear us. And consider, truly consider, coming off your prideful pedestal and repenting for the mistakes of the past.
© 2013, Kris. All rights reserved.
Terry,
Thank you for taking the time to share your story. While I’m sure your posts were of good intentions on informing the blog about the behind the scene stuff, some of your facts were a little off and I just wanted to set the record straight.
You said that Tom Wilkins was “demoted by the SGM heads, (Shank, etc.)” I know that this might not seem like a big thing, but having the facts straight will keep this blog from losing it’s credibility. Anyway, Tom was actually the one that contacted Tony Walsh (who was not only the senior pastor of CoG before he left to Vancouver, but also oversees CoG). Tom felt that he was not the right man to lead the church as the head pastor. He was not demoted against his will or for any “degifting” reason.
I agree with you about your account of Efisio. I too feel like they handled things very wrong there. He left a great job to go to pastors college, only to lose his job later and have to look for work during the worst economy we’ve seen in years. I also believe they were not cared for as best as they could’ve been. But if you know Efisio, you know he is fiercely loyal, so that is why they have stayed there.
Tom is now in the transition of stepping down as a pastor all together. Again, not because he was demoted for degifting reasons but because that small church in El Paso can’t afford to pay two full time pastors. He does have a severance package until June and he is pursuing other avenues for income. I pray that he will find something soon. However, the congregation would love for him to stay, they just simply don’t have the funds to pay him.
Ricky was surprised that he would be staying in EP as he thought he would be going somewhere else and for a time struggled with the idea of staying there. While his dad is “rich” he has never been a pastor and has nothing to do with the fact that Ricky is now leading this church. Ricky is young and has already made some mistakes in how he has counseled some of his congregation, but he is learning.
You have to understand that EP is unlike most SGM churches in the sense that most of these members (like your mother) have been there from the beginning, helping build the building they are in now with their own labor, tools and time (most of their names are on the 2x4s of the building), and they feel like family to each other. As a matter of fact, most of them are actually blood related family. Others went to high school together 30 years ago, they work together during the week…..they are a family. Even though all this crazy stuff is happening in SGM, most of them don’t understand how it actually affects them. Some of them don’t even know what the actual role of SGM is in their church. My wish for them is that they will realize that this organization is only a hindrance for them instead of a blessing and leave SGM.
I hope these clarifications help.
Persona,
Yes that’s Eric but that video shot could have been taken at the last singles conference or a little later if that was the pastors conference at what looks like the Florida hotel where they have all their conferences now. A lot has happened since that shot was probably taken. Time will tell where Eric stands in all this.
Beenaround @50 — In your last paragraph you refer to ‘transform’ attendees. I think you mean ‘Transfer’. lol. Would that it was titled ‘transform’ and that there was transformation among SGM leadership. Then they might have something worth ‘transferring’ to the next generation.
Critical Mass: Someone else did the math for me, but look at the travel budget:
$560,660 in travel expenses (If the average travel day cost them $280 per day, that translates into 2002 travel days, or 133 days of travel for fifteen SGM employees.)
If you consider there were 10 guys doing regional oversight last year, plus Bob K. and Jeff P bringing you to 12. If you assume that the average trip with air fair, hotel, and food costs $1,000 per trip (some cheaper, some more expensive).
Those 12 guys would have to have made 46 trips each last year to spend the amount that they did.
I find it highly unlikely that amount of travel took place and if it did, why?
Critical Mass @49 — I love your last paragraph regarding the Haiti RELIEF Fund. I gave a large (for me) amount to that fund and was surprised to learn how the money was used; given to ‘trusted’ somebodies. But I want to know the name of their organizations. Then a letter came in the snail mail giving the same BS and it said that this was the FINAL update for the Haiti Fund, as if he (I think it was Hill) was saying “that’s all we have to say about that; that’s our story and we’re stickin’ to it! Screw you”. They must know their ‘story’ sounds shady and not really accepted by congregation members who gave in good faith, thinking SGM knew what to do and would do the right thing. Oh, how naive I was!
Critcal Mass – This is from the SBC’s financial report –
It would be refreshing to see that example in SGM. The SBC spent a fraction of what SGM did in travel BTW.
A question to throw out there. How will the growing SGM lawsuit affect Sovereign Grace Redeemer of Arlington and Eric Simmons? Since Simmons was at CLC for years are we to expect that he will be deposed as part of the investigation? Will this lawsuit financially effect Redeemer?
Jenn, I tried to imagine what could be in there but without a footnote defining what is charged to Travel and Hospitality it’s too hard to know for sure. There was a $100K increase over last year in the Administration area. That’s likely all the travel costs related to board and polity committee meetings. There’s a big cut in Conferencing. Fewer subsidies for volunteer staff? Fewer dessert receptions? Maybe they converted from Starbucks coffee to hotel coffee. We really can’t know for sure.
It’s a large number and 2011’s number was much higher. I’m left guessing that there is something else in there we’re not thinking about.
Argo at 4:31,
You paint an good picture of the doctrine and how it covers all areas IF you are a leader. The bottom line: man has no real volition. So whatever CJ does or does not do, it is due to God. Cj simply becomes the center of it.
A great way to describe it is: Self deprecating narcissist.
It is cognitive dissonance which is why folks have a hard time pin pointing it. Narcissist, manipulators, etc major on chaos in thinking (he is successful but only because of grace—he is a lowly sinful humble man). He is the biggest sinner he knows, remember? (But look at my great life it has to be God blessing me! Listen to me and imitate me you can have a great life, too)
CJ is constantly communicating 2 different concepts as one. This makes God capricious and a respector of persons.
This keeps you off balance and looking to him and his sychophants for answers.
Many here are trying to pick one or the other. CJ communicates both depending on the audience and time.
He has had a good run as a manipulating narcissist and celebrity Christian. It might have exploded sooner if he had not been running in the circles of…early on…such contemporaries as Piper, Driscoll, then…. Mohler, Dever, etc. They provided some gravitas. Then again, getting more and more famous could have been the catalyst.
I am simply blown away he has any credibility at all with anyone. My guess is like what happened to Driscoll with the big dogs will eventually happen to Mahahey.
Now it is “Mark who”? And remember, the SBC had partnerships with Acts29, etc. He became like the aids virus. They just erased him out.
That will be harder to do with Mahaney because of T4G. But wait and see, if they get enough followers disgusted and see even a small drop in registrations, etc, he will get dumped. CJ knows this.
@digdeeper. Thank you for the update and clarification. I never felt Tom was demoted for degifting (whatever that SGM mumbo jumbo verbage means). I’m sure Tom did seek out Tony. It’s called a “squeeze” play. Had this been handled correctly from the beginning (i.e., Ricky mentoring under Tom or someone else) then Tom would never had to approach Tony in the first place. I understand CoG cannot sustain two pastors. Regardless how one wants to view it, Tom was forced out. Tom is too nice of a guy to call a spade a spade. Ricky should be the one to step down if only out of respect for Tom and his family. Ricky is young and resilient. Tony, Shank, could have just as easily relocated Ricky to another SGM church or invented a position like they did with Tony…or, they could have invented one for Tom too. I know and understand the members but many who have their names carved on the 2×4’s are gone…and more are in the process of leaving. If the members don’t know how this SGM debacle affects them it is because leadership has failed to tell them why. They don’t know nuttin because no one tells them nuttin. My mom wanted to leave many years ago but never felt a release from the Holy Spirit to do so…that’s between her and God I reckon. Just because people have been there a long time or are related to one another doesn’t excuse their being ignorant of SGM’s escapades. Just because folks have been their a long time doesn’t mean the have to eat crap sandwiches every time they’re served. I started going there 1n 1979 when it was called Son Life…before many of the people you are talking about even started going there…again, many of the “pillars” are gone or on their way out. I’m sorry, I don’t buy for one second this was Tom’s doing…oh, he may think it is…or, you may say it is…or, they may have made him think his leaving is of his own accord…Tom was squeezed out quietly and neatly…it’s just typical of how SGM does business. And Tom being who he is isn’t going to say a peep or make a ripple…why?…because that’s how SGM trained him. Don’t misunderstand me, it’s not you I’m upset at…I’m just like everyone else on these blogs…I’m just fed up with the hacks who have forgotten what transparency, accountability, and the ability to say I am wrong is…or to say forgive me I was wrong…I repent at all costs…I’m fed up with hacks who believe it is not the congregations business to know anything…I’m fed up with the Paul like greetings that grace every memo that comes out…I’m fed up with hacks who spend $140,000 on a pastor’s conference but not a corporate dime to the poor and oppressed…I’m fed up with hacks who spend almost 1/2 million dollars on an AoR report and it ain’t even worth wiping one’s behind with…shall I go on?…OK…I’m fed up with hacks who no longer tell their congregations on what they believe or what their doctrinal beliefs are…oh, you got the generic ones on their web site that every church in the country uses but no one really knows what SGM believes in anymore…this was one of my mom’s biggest beefs. The only reason I know what I know is because I ask point blank. I’m fed up with hacks who don’t believe in promoting prayer anymore…I mean really promoting it like they used too…I fed up with hacks who no longer ask folks from the pulpit whether they want to accept Christ or not…I’m fed up with hacks who suppress the members giftings, etc, etc, etc,…I’m tired of the local SGM churches who think it’s none of the member business about the law suit…the sexual stuff…so everybody is left to assume this or that instead of being transparent about it all. I agree with the commenter that stated anyone who stays in a SGM church whether they know what is going on or not is supporting and condoning this sick SGM culture. This is what I’m upset about and I hate seeing good men like Tom and Efisio duped by a bunch of “we used to follow the holy spirit” hacks. I’m the least of the least…I wish I was half the man that some of these members are…but I know a crap sandwich when I see or smell one. But that’s just me. If you want to divulge your anonymity and talk with me on my email then maybe Kris will be kind to do so.
Re:doctrine The reason it can be argued that the doctrine here does not matter that much, is because most these cases happened before SGM was reformed, and SGM’s self absorption, belief they are better than everyone, and extreme trust in their leaders and holding them up like God has been consistent through all of there doctrines. The one thing that hasn’t changed, that has been more consistent with the doctrine of CJ’s catholic upbringing, is the authority of the leaders. This issue has been consistent, regardless of doctrine. In everyone system of doctrine there are those who twist it to make it about themselves and give themselves authority. You see that in calvinistish churches like Driscolls or in extremely charismatic churches, or mega churches, or baptist churches. Even when many of those have doctrines/sets of rules and creeds to specifically prevent that from happening. The problem is, that even if you have all the safegaurds in place, if you have charismatic leaders who can built a cult of personality around them, everything can be gotten arround. This is what I see from SGM and CLC, they are about themselves, regardless of doctrine, and the doctrine changes have never been really central to them, if anything it can be argued that they go to whatever doctrine a. fits there thoughts of the day and b. is the popular one of the time, so that it ultimately builds them up. Though I will say in all the cases, it is always a b*****dized version of the doctrine, edited to keep them in power and make it all about them. That is why, to me, it is frustrating when people link what is happened to reformed theology. First, they do not have reformed theology, just a twisted version of it, and second, if you have been around, these issues have been present throughout all of their theology.
As a point of historical clarification, the Arminian and reformed distinctives did not really start with the reformation, it was just a rehash of the Pelagianism stuff that Augustine fought against (and can be argued is a rehash of Paul vs the Jewish thought of his day).
Kris “I wonder about the damage that all the marriage and parenting teachings did to the run-of-the-mill SGMer over the years. I know it’s not as horrid as the mishandled abuse situations. But I bet the “Follow me (even though you really can’t because you’re NOT me)!” sermons have wreaked more havoc in more relationships than anyone imagines.”
I think that part put so much pressure on us. Even women that worked full time were STILL expected to be a perfect duplicate of the Carolyn Mahaney or the various successful homemaker paraded before the congregation on Sunday mornings. That is why one of the teachings, “Doing it all – and doing it well” comes to mind. We were supposed to do it all. Like the one woman paraded that did something like get an electrician’s license in order to save her husband money…
I think I am finally starting to think they are not just misguided people striving to love Jesus – that made some mistakes along the way. They (at least years ago) had a very defined system of control, overpowering, and brainwashing. We were all being trained to be loyal followers of our leaders..more than followers of Christ.
I have gone back and forth about whether to spend time here or not. I admit I struggle when things get sassy sometimes. But, I also see that there are things I need to understand about what happened and admit that they were not misguided happenings…but intentional control and maybe even brainwashing. I know loyal followers freak over that – so do I. I wish I didn’t even have to wonder if that happened or not. I wish it was clear that it didn’t. But, for me – it just isn’t clear.
Does anyone know where Crossway in Wisconsin (Mike Bullmore) stands on all this? With SGM or with Harris? Or somewhere else?
Oh…and Kris….I don’t wonder about the damage done. I work hard all the time to undo it. There was a lot of damage done to me. Not just from that but way more. And, when I read Wow’s story – I had to wonder how many people ended up suicidal (I did); or succeeding at killing themselves. It is supposed to be Good News right? No one I read about in the gospel left an encounter with Jesus feeling like they wanted to die. Judas is the only one – and his was not an encounter with Jesus but a betrayal of Jesus. The fact that SGM left many wanting to die and that they wounded so many – and don’t care at all – says enough about their character to me. To bad it doesn’t say anything to them or their hyper-loyal followers.
Here’s what I’ve been wondering: Why is this story not a headliner for every news show on television? With all of the Penn State stuff, combined with the recent coverage of Scientology, I woild think this story should be bigger than it is. Maybe it’s naive of me to think this, but I feel like big media coverage would force the RBD wagons to stop circling around SGM and members couldn’t block out information anymore. In other words, it’s easy to defriend people on FB and avoid these blogs, but blocking out The Today Show and 20/20 is not so easy. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t wish ill on anyone, but I do wish for people’s eyes to be opened.
Post #61, “That is why, to me, it is frustrating when people link what is happened to reformed theology. First, they do not have reformed theology, just a twisted version of it, and second, if you have been around, these issues have been present throughout all of their theology” …I am sorry that frustrates you but maybe I can help explain how people think that because I used to. I was at CLC when the switch happened. I think the control was there before the switch but it went into high gear or more openly with the introduction to Calvinism. And, for me, the messages about total depravity where a huge part of the abuse. It took me being out of SGM for many years before I could separate that from the abuse. Before I could realize that “total depravity” is not abuse – but it was a tool in their toolbox that they used, just like many other tools they had. They used it to say how bad, bad, bad I am – and how I need them to know what being good is. I even had a pastor tell me that I am too sinful for God to show me my sin…so I just need to repent when they tell me what my sin is. Totally depravity was used to control me….but so was many other things they twisted and used. It took me a long time to see the difference.
Digdeeper, not to be fresh in the least, but I would like to suggest that you dig deeper into the story that you believe about this situation. There is more going on than I believe you know of.
The Counsel of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood was created in 1987 to combat the perceved threat of evangelical feminism. CJ is on the board. Wayne Grudem is on the board. The banner that SG waved in the 90s included those against the therapeutic movement and against evangelical feminism. I believe that the influence of the men on this counsel including that of Wayne Grudem probably influenced CJs theology shifting SG from the charismatic to the right wing extremist psuedoreformed direction. Homesteaders and Patriarch types flocked to the churches to be with like minded folks. Somewhere along the way the freedom of the gospel was lost and a pattern of dysfunction developed. Christ followers seeking freedom in worship but reformed in doctrine also filled the church later, but these are the ones who suffered the most in my opinion.
Mary #62: “We were all being trained to be loyal followers of our leaders..more than followers of Christ.”
So true.
re:Mary I agree with them using total depravity to control 100%, drove me crazy while I was there, one of the reasons I left. I wasn’t at CLC from the beginning, but was friends with people who were and was in that area my whole life, and my impression is that before the depravity being used as control, being in the spirit was used as the theological term to give them control in much the same way(at least that is what I and others I knew experienced). I completely see the reasons people associate the doctrine with the problems, CLC is a master of using the doctrine for there own devices (and sadly the friendships with the other reformed and psuedo-reformed people haven’t helped). I just think that the doctrine was always a tool for their control, not the reason for it.
sorry, submitted early
continued – Mary, I completely agree with you, it is all tools in their toolbox, and whether whatever theological view we have, or we think is deficient in CLC/SGM (and it can be they are too reformed or not enough), there are people with the same theology that do not engage in the same heinous acts that have happened at SGM and they do not treat people the same way. The issue has been in the leadership from atop, not as much in the theology, at least as I see it.
presby, amen.
If you came to your SGM church looking for Jesus and came away with suicidal ideation or attempted suicide, raise your hand. If you felt trapped with no other way out, let’s see how many of us there are.
This reminds me of when I was in a relationship (that would no way be approved of by the church). My behavior in the relationship was erratic and confusing to the guy because I was so freaked out about what the church would say about him or what God would do to me if I stayed in it. I was really, really hurt when the relationship ended. I couldn’t make the guy understand where I was coming from because he had never been involved in such insanity. (Thank goodness for that). I will never forget being just absolutely trashed over this the night the break up occurred. I called one of my friends from church and she said,”Do you think God might be disciplining you?” I cannot even begin to describe to you the condemnation I felt when she said that. Now who would I turn to? I couldn’t go to God – He was apparently upset with me, too!
#73. Part A no. Part B no. Part C (trapped) YES YES YES raising both hands.
presbyterian # 70 – “I just think that the doctrine was always a tool for their control, not the reason for it.” I can’t tell you how freeing it was for me when I realized this. It was VERY freeing.
Stunned, thanks for the suggestion. This is the story being told to the church by Tom himself. So, unless someone in the “inside” is going to share privileged information, there is no way for the congregation to know the truth since you are alluding to ulterior motives.
This is what I find so frustrating about SGM in general. They feel we are unable to handle all the information and therefore only give us the information they deem necessary. I constantly used to feel like the message was being manipulated to fit some hidden agenda. Until I found the blogs, where people where talking about behind the scene stuff, I didn’t know what that agenda was. It seems all their messages are trying to manipulate or prepare the congregation for what they may hear about, but most of them just think it’s a regular message.
Speaking of hidden agendas, I find it interesting the CJ’s most recent sermon was on Phil 2:19-30 and titled Whom Should We Follow. I’ve attached the link below (I hope it works). If you start listening at around 19:30 he says “Those we admire, we watch. Those we admire and watch we are influenced by. Those we admire and watch and spend time with we are influenced by and we conform to.” (Around 21:31) “You will eventually become like those you admire, study, watch and spend time with.” It’s interesting that he goes on and on about being interested in the welfare of others and what would others say about you because you’re being watched. “What are those watching you learning?” I just can’t imagine that he could give this sermon with a straight face with all that is going on. His congregation must be thirsty cause that kool-aid sure is quenching. Sickened regarding his message.
http://www.sgclouisville.org/sovereign-grace-church-louisville-sermons/sermon/2013-01-20/whom-should-we-follow—philippians-2:19-30—c-j–mahaney
Just Saying # 73 – both hands raised. I was very suicidal and trapped! It was only by God’s grace I am here today.
Presby 61- excellent.
Mary…wow, that was a twist even I never heard at SGM, but I’ve been out a while.
“I even had a pastor tell me that I am too sinful for God to show me my sin”.
Crazy. John 16:18 says “And He (the Holy Spirit), when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment”
The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sin(not accuse, but convict) as well as lead and comfort and all the rest. Often the work of the Holy Spirit is very deep and private…we alone can see our own unbelief or lack of love or whatever. SGM has nothing to do with true Reformed doctrine on this. Total depravity does not mean anybody is 100% depraved- all men are still image bearers- but instead it means that every part of us is fallen in Adam- not just our bodies but our souls, including our wills, so nobody can come to God unless the Father draws him. But once saved and born again, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, Immanuel, God with us. And that indwelling spirit convicts us of sin when necessary.
I wish you would name the pastor who said that. That is almost blasphemous, to say the pastor must do what Jesus said the Holy Spirit will do. If you are willing I would name him if he never apologized. This cr@p has to stop.
Terry- Timothy travled with Paul for over a decade before he went on his own. He apprenticed into his 30s. Tom was one more victim of CJs “Timothys” who were not Timothys at all, just young zealous loyal guys with shaved heads to toe the party line. Did any of the PC grads spend 10+ years as apprentices?
I have said this before, but there is something that seems emotionally gay about CJ (not accusing him at all of infidelity to his wife.) Some sort of seduction of adoring young men. It isn’t sexual, maybe they just want a daddy. But whatever it is is perverted. It was noticable even in the 90s before the PC even started.
Just saying- I never saw so many clinically depressed women in a church. I talked to a counselor once who said that when you are forced to submit to an authority that does not care about you but just demands your submission ( father, husband, boss, pastor, civil govt) the normal response is rebellion. People feel rebellious towards having to obey authority that is just out for themselves.
In a church where rebellion is the chief sin, you have to squash all the anger and hurt and rebellion, it is forbidden. So you squash it under a thick lid of depression.
I could see the anger underneath some of them. Explosive almost. I can’t imagine the inner turmoil and self hatred. yeah, suicide seems a logical result.
just saying # 73, me and my 11 year old son can be counted in that group. What a glorious false gospel they preach when my child wants to kill himself because of it.
Where is that millstone?
Dear 5 years. I just don’t have the courage to say who that was. But, he really did say that. And, when I told him I felt falsely accused not only was I so deep in sin that the Holy Spirit couldn’t tell me but they were without question correct in their judgment of me. The reason they were right was because the bible says, “Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.” And, that verse means that they are able to make right judgments….how crazy is that? I would have taken it better if they asked me to pray and acknowledged they could be incorrect. So much for that humble thing they brag about. The thing that most perplexes me still though is not just the twisting of scripture and doctrine but the outright lies. I was once confronted for disobeying…something I was never told to do. Yet, I was judged and tried and sinful if I tried to defend. I love Jesus. During this time I was not in any gross sin. I was praying, reading my bible daily, and truly seeking Jesus. But, I think it is all part of breaking you down so you think you need your leader to guide and direct every detail of your life AND relationship with God. Such weirdness.
BBinMP – I am sorry that happened to you. I hate when people say that about God’s discipline. When God convicts me of sin and asks me to do something that feels next to impossible or very painful…there is still a measure of joy that comes with it. There is peace and joy and even though it will be hard – there is hope. So, His discipline is not hateful punishment – I always feel loved when He disciplines me. And, if you had called me that day I would have asked if I could take you out for a cup of coffee, I would have wiped the tears from your face, and asked you questions to draw out your heart and let God take you to where He wants. So sad. I had a friend that was sick and needed an operation and her CGL asked her if there was any unrepentant sin in her life….shesshh!
Dear DigDeeper,
I completely understand your frustration. And, please know, I am not trying to frustrate you further. I really am not. In fact, I wrote and re wrote and erased that message to you several times before deciding to finally say it.
I can’t say too much but I can add that one of the very early church members of that church came on to this site back near the beginning. He was a full-on fan of your church and of SGM. For a long time he sought to bring truth to us. We all came to love him, even when there were times some of us disagreed with him. Sadly for him, as he found out more truth, he sought to bring it to the church and to SGM. Surely, these godly men whom he had known since he was a small child would rejoice in seeing the truth.
Things didn’t work out for him in that way. The more truth he saw, the more he prayed, the more God revealed to him. I don’t want to go into detail of what happened to him because it is his story. I can say that his relationship in his family was strained to the point that, to save the relationships, he stopped posting here for a long time. I suspect he still reads here from time to time. (If you are reading here, hello, Old Friend.)
He eventually left that church which he loved SO DEARLY. It broke his heart. I can guarantee you, his name was on those beams, as was the name of his family members. Names you would know.
I believe that what happened was that his questioning and truth telling slowly “infected” his relatives. And some of them, though they initially rejected him and caused him much pain, ended up apologizing to him. These poor people are wrestling with these truths. I think their eyes are beginning to open.
Again, I wish I could say more, but I am trying to respect this precious brother, who in turn is trying to respect/protect his family members, whom you would know.
To add to this, I can say that I have spoken with exSGM pastors who told me that what they said to their congregations about why they were stepping down was NOT 100% truth, but at the time, they were convinced by SGM that it was better for the church members for their pastor to lie, than it was for the people to know the truth. (This sin either makes one’s heart colder to the Holy Spirit or it tears into the conscience and years later, they still feel the shame as they tell their story of well intentioned deceit.)
I admire your willingness to recognize that what you know was told to you by those who may have sought to keep you in the dark. And your desire to dig deeper. That takes courage. It is easier to scurry into the darkness. The darkness is at least, familiar. And safe. And it doesn’t cause you to make decisions or stand up for integrity. Or demand integrity from your leaders. I know you’re not in an easy position. Seeking out truth can screw up your life. Change it. Rock your world. I hope it does nothing but bring you peace and closer to God.
Stunned
Joyful and Free (81 & 82) – Millstone indeed! How sad for your child! So, not the experience I see kids having at my new church. They are having fun and really engaged in discovering who God is. I love seeing them WANT to learn about God. I take it by your name things are much better now :o) Joyful and free is beautiful!
BBinMP, so sorry you experienced such pain, instead of comfort.
Mary, you’re the kind of friend everyone needs! Your friends are lucky to have you.
Just saying….
For me, it goes without saying (because it’s been said), but the disturbing thing is I told them I was suicidal before I left, and the only counsel I was given was that it would hurt my kids. That was in a phone call. There were no referrals for help, no calls to my husband that I needed to be protected, etc. I told them that every room I walked into I identified every item present that I could use to end my life. I was not released to go for medical or professional help. I simply had more guilt added to my pile that it would harm my children.
Regarding what Presby said in #61, and what others have said along the same lines, this quote comes to mind in a book I’m currently reading (Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes by Kenneth Bailey): “In every culture the message of the gospel is in constant danger of being compromised by the value system that supports that culture and its goals.”
When I read that, I thought, SGM! CLC! And, unfortunately, this is the case in lots of churches who like to hold up their particular “issue” to divide the biblical from the unbiblical. Which is why, no matter what shell game the SGM leaders are playing w/ their polity, not much is gonna change, because it’s still the same men shifting the pieces on the game board.
@just sayin #73
Both of my hands are raised as well. I too contemplated suicide on several occasions and suffered serious depression. One of my friends left the church and I remember running into her at the store and just crying because I wanted to leave so bad but had been told over and over again that I was the problem and wherever I went I would take the problem with me. I definitely felt trapped. Finally, when the documents were released my husband and I realized that everything we thought was going on really was. For so long we thought we were the crazy ones. The next Sunday, my husband went to a care group leader’s meeting to discuss Brent’s documents. He said he would know right away if they were going to be repentant of their ways or if it was going to be business as usual. The pastor had just gotten back from one of his many personal retreats to go fly fishing. The pastor said that he hadn’t had a chance to read the documents. He said he started to read them but then he stopped because it felt like gossip and slander. (Later we found out the documents had been sent to all the churches and pastors months prior before they were released to the public). CJ was scheduled to speak at our church within the next few weeks, so I wrote a letter to the pastors with my concerns and cited 1 Timothy 5:20-21 that says “As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.” Shortly thereafter my husband met with one of the pastors and told him that he no longer would be a care group leader, that he would no longer be an “extension of the pastoral team.” The pastor then asked my husband if he knew about the letter that I had written and if he had approved it. My husband told him yes he had read it but that I didn’t need his permission to do so. Long story short, we left the following Sunday. I look back now and remember being so scared. Actually I feel like such an idiot when I look back on that now, but it reminds me of how much power I had given them in my life. I had elevated them above Christ. So no the problem isn’t “doctrine”. The problem is the leaders.
BINGO. Classic cult techniques.
Mary, my church was not nearly so bad, thank God. I understand you prefer to presevere your anonymity and not name names. I am curious though, was your pastor a PC grad? Or somebody who grew up in it all since childhood? Trying to wrap my brain around just how these guys end up as pastors.
Digging-deeper@51 and Terry@60 –
This story sounds familiar. Actually, it sounds like a rerun of what happened in San Diego several year ago, except it didn’t quite get pulled off. The young guy went somewhere else.
My guess is they (SGM) want the young guys leading so the churches will draw young families to the church. It is marketing to the target group. Do people not realize that this is exactly what CJ declared he wanted to do? I wouldn’t mind any of this if the men were qualified and NOT pulling people into the SGM vortex. The young men are not qualified because they don’t seem to see the damage being done by SGM.
Michelle, that is a powerful story. Thank you for sharing it.
Stunned – Thank you :o)
Two Feet Out – “it’s still the same men shifting the pieces on the game board.” How sad – but true.
Wow – ! When you said, “I went away believing in a God who neither cared about my feelings or truly loved me” that rips my heart out – because I went away from SGM believing the same thing. I have been through alot of trials in life – but none as dark as being a Christian and having your belief changed to the idea that there is no love or hope in God. For a Christian that is losing everything including our reason to live. I am glad you are healing from the legalism. For me, that healing has come slowly and taken years. Their roots went deep into me and I am still plucking them out!
Terry & Deeper,
I didnt want to start a heated discussion, but Terry just explained what I understood.
Because, things just dont happen in SGM like Deeper says. Middle aged family men who have been a head pastor for a number of years just dont sit up in bed one morning and decide that they arent right for the job and go in and tell the big boss they are not right for the position, while not having a plan B. It just doesnt happen like that in real life. In SGM life you get that story on a regular basis but everyone understands it is really spin, not the real reason.
And the way you know it is spin is because there is a press release and a perfect story to cover. In every episode where someone from my church or the churches of my friends has to leave or chooses to go some place different on their own accord, there is the story and the things that will be lost and the things that they are in faith for and the problems they are leaving and the problems they will face, yard sales, going away parties, etc. etc. There are no perfect stories in life but Deeper relates the “real” story, the perfect story of how Tom decided this all on his own, and Ricky was just in the right place at the right time. No Machiavellian machinations in El Paso. But…Shank was involved. So you KNOW there had to be string pulling going on in the background.
I appeal to Deeper to think back…in all the times people left SGM Church elder positions…how many of them have been for honest reasons like moving home to take care of parents, or death in the family, etc. I can only think of one. Now…how many were cover stories? How many times did someone drop out of eldership but still stay at the church or stay in the neighborhood? It is always the old “spend more time with the family” excuse.
And whether Tom is too loyal or too much the gentlemen or even clueless…doesnt change the facts! He was maneuvered out of his postion to put someone else in and the person doing it had their own reasons for making the switch. It is the SGM way. Dont believe it…call AoR, they can put you in touch with over 100 ex pastors who will tell you the exact same story!
5 years – He was a member of the royal family :o)
Mary #83 thank you and we are set free. My son begged to go to our new church’s youth retreat coming up. God is healing us and He is teaching us how to hear Him again. We are starting all over again and getting to know our amazing God who loves us and cares for us and always stands with arms open wide to us.
Michelle, “I was the problem”….they are so good at that. That is what I am trying to untangle now. The cords of SGM crazy for me are many and I untie them one at at time. This week that is the cord I am working on. I was a very compliant brainwash-ee. Now, when someone sins against me – I feel like I failed. They drilled into your head constantly that we were the problem. Now matter what was going on – they could blantenly sin – and we were the problem. Search out your sinful heart – not look to God. So self focusing! It is all ugly business really.
Diego in #68 –
Well said, Sir! I heartily agree with you!
JoyfulandFree – I praise God that you and your son are free. God cares for His children! I love that your son wants to go on the youth retreat. I really love that!!! I am joyful and free too – but I occasionally have something pop up and I have to wrestle with it, seek God, and kill the beast – LOL. But, it is with more and more confidence and strength each time. I am joyful and free but still occassionally untangling but then there is more joy and freedom! God has been really faithful to us both!