The Mahaneys on Lance Armstrong…and Brent on SGM’s True Counseling Policy
January 25, 2013 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
It appears Chad Mahaney, C.J.’s young-adult son, has taken up the mantle of writing about sports. In the same way that his dad cluck-clucked over Bill Belichick back in 2008 and tried to turn Tiger Woods’ woes into a sermon illustration in 2009, Chad himself pontificated Wednesday about Lance Armstrong’s sins.
I will never understand why these guys use the shortcomings and failings of professed non-believers as fodder for their own moralizing. Also, does anyone else join me in wondering if either C.J. or Chad followed their organization’s own rigid Matthew 18 policy by first approaching Belichick or Armstrong with their concerns privately before calling these guys out publicly?
(Yes, I’m being slightly tongue-in-cheek here. I don’t actually wonder if Chad Mahaney rang up Lance Armstrong to try and approach him privately about his sins before writing about him on his blog. I’d guess that Chad and his dad both assume that public figures are free game for their blogging. But considering how big a deal a lot of C.J.’s followers often make about Matthew 18 when it came to this site and others like it, it’s still ironic that such high-profile SGMers don’t seem to hold themselves to the same standards they expect others to follow when commenting on their own public ministries.)
And what about the irony of Chad’s quoting C.J., and the irony of C.J.’s own remarks about “secret sins”?
Chad shared the following from something his dad wrote:
And this story should humble and sober us. It should make us ask: Are there any so-called “secret sins” in my life? Is there anything I have done that I hope nobody discovers? Is there anything right now in my life that I should confess to God and the appropriate individuals?
And this should leave us more amazed by grace because there, but for the grace of God, go I.”
“Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper” Proverbs promises, “but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy (28.13).
Then Chad ends the post with this zinger:
If we lie, our story will seem perfect in the moment, but it will always end “bad and toxic.”
I wonder if C.J. reads his son’s (or his son’s ghost writer’s) blogging efforts? Or even his own words?
——————————
In other news, I was intrigued by something Brent Detwiler published yesterday. In a post in which he discusses the possible legal tactics Sovereign Grace Ministries may take when defending itself against the recent lawsuit filed against the organization and several of its leaders, Brent – former apostle and former second-or-third-in-command within the organization – acknowledges something which many SGM defenders have tried to claim wasn’t actually true.
Over the years, we’ve often discussed SGM’s unspoken – though still very real – requirements for remaining in good standing with one’s church leaders. One element many survivors have noted is that they were expected to seek and follow counsel from their pastors about anything remotely significant in their lives. Many of the situations of spiritual abuse occurred when SGM members resisted their pastors’ counsel or disagreed with their pastors’ assessments of the members’ sins.
SGM defenders have tried to claim that such counsel was something sought willingly by the members and not actually any sort of requirement.
But now we have Brent Detwiler himself (and again, remember, up until just a few years ago, Brent was one of the top leaders in the SGM organization) acknowledging that of course members were expected to seek and follow counsel from their pastors. He says:
Everyone knows SGM pastors expect, and people have been taught, that they must come to their overseers with their problems because they are the God ordained means of help. To not come is sin. To not follow their “biblical and spiritual direction” is also sin. No member in a SGM church would consider it a voluntary to seek out their pastor if their child was sexually assaulted by a family or church member. Such a pursuit is mandatory per SGM teaching.
I wonder what some of these SGM defenders are thinking about all this stuff nowadays. Do they still want to argue that there are no unspoken rules, no unspoken yet binding expectations, that really did govern SGM’s culture? If so, they’re going to find themselves at odds with what even one of C.J.’s former head honchos says about this practice.
© 2013, Kris. All rights reserved.
@CLCers – Good grief…I feel your pain…reminds me of my “Fundamental Baptist days…LOL. I guess my having a “quick smoke” on the side of building between Sunday morning prayer group and the service would constitute for immediate “defrocking”.
Diane 100 The original title of the book included Larry’s eldest son’s name but, he was counseled to change it and it was changed to “God, the rod and your child’s bod.”
@Diane, I think they are two different books; but I’m not sure. The “Loving” book may just be a retitled update. It’s certainly a better title; even if the content is no less poisonous. And he stands by the teaching.
OK..thanks.
Just wondered why the God Rod book was not on his resume…if it indeed was one of his popular books. If the title was good for him when he wrote it, why is it not good now, I wonder, if the Loving book is considered to be an updated version?
Oh…and how awful to have had a child’s actual name on the God Rod book. What???
So, Larry’s son sins and Larry gets put on hold and put under a microscope. C.J.’s son sins and nothing happens to C.J.
Uncovering SGM corruption is like peeling an onion. Layer upon layer. A pedophile ring at the church school? What next? Pornography? Prostitution?
In the article which Kindred links to, the author says in regard to ‘purity balls’, “Wilson’s wife, Lisa, says that they wanted to create an event with “elegance, romance and extravagance, all the things girls find attractive” in a way that would “touch the intrinsic soul of a daughter” and leave her saying “I am beautiful and worthy of being pursued.” This is to be stressed and enforced by the father and a girl is to learn that her sexuality never belongs to her but rather first to a father and then to a husband.”
An romantic event for your father to share with you. Isn’t that what every teen-aged girl longs for? WTF?! I think I am going to be sick. My creeper meter is going off. NOOOOO teen-aged girl wants to share a romantic night with her father. Oh, I actually feel sick reading this.
This is NOT about SGM. Sorry to digress. I saw these comments on the link to the Purity balls. The videos have been removed. Did anybody ever hear of this sort of thing before? I have to say that on a scale of 1 to 10, this thread has been sending my barf meter to 11.
By all reports, what the Tomczak son in question allegedly did was far worse than what the Mahaney boy allegedly did. FAR worse.
Here’s what bothers me most in the cover-ups, though.
PDI/SGM leaders kept quiet about the Tomczak boy’s sexual sins/crimes at the expense of his victims to protect the Movement. They forbid gossip, told a cover story, reassigned Tomczak, and paid off some people to be quiet and go away. More than once. This allowed the boy’s sexual predations to continue, creating more victims with destroyed lives, all so that PDI/SGM could continue to look good.
Tomczak had been the the charismatic leader, teacher, and author back when C.J. was not much more than his little comic sidekick. The ministry was initially built on Tomczak’s ‘anointing’ and appeal, much more than Mahaney or anyone else. I think that is a big part of why they dealt with Tomczak behind the scenes for so long. They eventually put Tomczak under pastoral discipline for failing to keep his boy in line (among other things, perhaps, now revealed in the lawsuit).
While that was in process, the always-competitive Mahaney won the King-of-the-Hill battle for power, and Larry was effectively sidelined. He announced he was leaving, which would shake the foundations of PDI for lots of people. Then he threatened to speak out against the stealth switch to Reformed doctrine as his reason for leaving the so-called pastoral discipline process.
Mahaney threatened, coerced, and blackmailed Tomczak to at least leave quietly if he wasn’t going to stay. Mahaney said he would expose the Tomczak son’s sins/crimes if Tomczak brought up a difference in doctrine.
SGM pastors apparently think this was because C.J. was “caring for Larry’s soul” … really. And now with Tomczak publicly exposed for his own crimes, Mahaney may be spun as the hero on that one. (As well he might in the rifts with CLC and Fairfax, too, since they are now named as the churches with the abuse cover-up problems in the lawsuit.)
Anyway, here’s the thing to me. Mahaney used coercion, bribes, and force of authority to cover up the Tomczak sins/crimes when it suited him for the sake of the ‘Movement’ with little or no thought to the victims. Then he turned right around and was equally willing to use coercion and force of authority to expose the Tomczak sins/crimes when it suited him for the sake of the ‘Movement’
Bottom line — it was all about what was good for what Mahaney’s kingdom. He may have told himself it was for “the Gospel” but his version of ‘good news’ isn’t much like Jesus and wasn’t very good news to anyone who got in his way.
Mommy2boo,
I am so terribly, terribly sorry that your little boo has gone through such a horrific thing and that your other little boo had to have his/her innocence shattered, too. I wish there was something we could do to or a magic wand to wave to make it never have happened.
Many, many hugs,
Stunned
Another thing — the recording of the blackmail exists, or at least it did. I would be curious if it were to be played for the general public (say, in court or even on the internet) if anyone except C.J.’s staunch supporters would think it was an evidence of caring for Tomczak’s soul. Seriously.
Tomczak and Mahaney and those early guys were damaged, dysfunctional novices who were touched by a great God and thought that gave them superior greatness. Their zeal and longing and egos exceeded their wisdom and experience. They weren’t ready to be leaders. They really weren’t even good followers. They seized on various winds of doctrines and institutionalized them. SGM may go down in history as a denomination shaped by the disorders of its founders.
I agree with Stunned. So shocking how uncaring the pastors were/are. How could anyone not put these kids first? These families? I deeply wish it never happened nor the treatment following.
5 Years and Stunned,
This kind of stuff has been making me sick for years. I’ve seen a similar mind-set at CrossWay. I’ve seen it among many of the folks we homeschooled with. I’ve seen it at the OPC church up the road. And I’ve seen it within the Wilsonite groups (Doug Wilson).
God help them all.
I pray that the kids who have yet to realize that what they’ve been raised in is sick and unhealthy will come to realize it, and that there will be good Christian counselors out there to help them.
Chances are many of our readers know or will come across some of these kids (by kids I mean 20 and 30 somethings, as well) and will have the opportunity to minister to them in some way. It could be sharing what you’ve read, listening with a compassionate ear, or providing a shoulder to cry on. Many of the kids will be mad at their parents; and the sad thing is, many of the parents were only doing what their pastors and author gurus told them to do, thinking it was the wisest and most biblical way to parent. It’s all so sad.
Never Again- 109- very good post!
Thanks, Stunned.
I wish I could wave that wand, too, but I have to say that little boo has come very far in his/her healing and seems to have been relatively unscathed because of her/his youth. And while God is the only one who knows why something like that happened, or what good will come of it, I take Him at His word when he says that He will work all things together for our good, and that one day we will see in full and understand. The other parents and children who have gone through this will, too.
And I would just like to reiterate that our incident did NOT happen in an SGM church, we do not attend SGM anymore, the perpetrator NEVER attended SGM either and none of this has anything to do with the pastors or staff there. My only intent in relating the story is that up until now it has been unfathomable for me, having gone through this, to learn that the parents had to bring their children back in to face the person who did that to them. Especially knowing that the first bit of counsel that I received from anyone trained in the field was NOT TO DO THAT VERY THING. And I keep trying to put myself in their place and to imagine how hard that would be. I think I’d get physically sick. In fact, I honestly would leave the church before I’d do it. I’d just flat-out refuse. Our own perpetrator was a family member, and I just can not see them again ever or for at least a very very long time. But in that culture of being unsure of their own judgment, of trusting their pastors so much, of believing that if something felt uncomfortable to them, it was good because it was more biblical or holy – only in THAT culture could it be understood. (And that culture is hard to understand for people who have not been there.)
Oh, Mommy-2-boo, my heart breaks for you and your little ones in this situation. I’m so glad you were treated with kindness and dignity. What a terrible pain to bear.
The pastor of my ex-church recycled the “be on time” sermon several times through the years. In a stained-glass church setting with pews, very few people come in late, and if they do, it’s because of a flat tire or something. And very few people have to get up and go to the restroom, but they know that the service will end after about an hour, give or take a few minutes. But even if they did, I cannot imagine the pastor saying anything about it.
At one point in our SGM history, they hit the congregation hard with the be-on-time issues, and instructed the ushers to write down the names of those who were late and turn them into their home group leaders so they could be uh, corrected.
My husband served as an usher for years. When he got this directive, he said, “Nope. Not gonna do it. I’ll count people. I’ll tell you how many people are late. But I’m not taking names. The same people are late all the time anyway, and they’re not going to change their habits, and I’m not here to report them to anyone.” After he refused to squeal on the tardy, they dropped that idea.
I’m surprised they didn’t kick him off the usher team. He served several stints as head usher, several years at a time, which was no small headache. Funny thing though. From time to time, other ushers got called up front and thanked for their years of service, and received those weird standing ovations, whistles and cheers. But in spite of being an usher for 20-some years, and serving as head of the team for about 10 of those, he never once was ‘honored’, probably because he refused to turn in names. It didn’t bother him one bit — he wouldn’t have wanted to be honored anyway. But it was almost as if they honored someone else as a “we’ll show HIM” kind of tactic. So crazy.
One Sunday about two years ago, I was told that the pastor spoke for twenty minutes on the lateness issue before the sermon even started. Afterwards, a husband spoke to the pastor and said, “My wife was 5 minutes late this morning. She got up at 6 AM, cooked a casserole for a family who just had a baby, delivered it, put our dinner in the oven, then got kids dressed and ready, and drove them to church — and instead of being welcomed and encouraged to worship, she was hit over the head for being late and told that her lateness was because she considered her own time more important than yours.” Personally, I’m thinking that 20 minutes of telling people they need to show up earlier so they can listen to you is a good way to make people decide not to listen to you, ever again.
Someone up the thread commented on the elite status of the worship team. I hate to admit this — I should’ve run for the exit and saved a decade or so of trauma — but one of the first sermon illustrations I remember from the senior pastor was about a woman who said she wanted to sing on the worship team, and felt strongly about it. And the pastor’s answer was, “No. Not now — WE’RE in charge…”
I remember when people would come to the church and say things like, “OH, I’m so excited about the worship team. I’m a guitar player, and my son is learning — can’t wait till we can join.” I should’ve done them the favor of saying, “Fat chance”. If, and that’s a big if, you were considered worthy enough to even be considered for the worship team, you were invited to come to every rehearsal and sit in a chair on the sidelines and listen without participating for a period of six months to a year — and then, if you were deemed somehow spiritual enough to join the worship team, only then could you actually play your instrument or sing.
Except, of course, when a guy who had actually played on some recordings somewhere showed up. He was on stage playing keyboards the 2nd week he came to church. He was a terrific musician, a great guy. But fifteen years later, he was told he was “too old” to be on the team. As if, somehow when you turn 40, your ability has disappeared.
But if that were the case in every situation, the guys who write, produce, and rake in the royalties should’ve been sidelined two decades ago.
And I remember one of those bigwigs, when he came down to spend a week-end with our worship team, making fun of a woman who asked, “When do I get to sing with this wonderful worship team?” And his thought was “NEVER.” Everybody laughed, because they were IN, of course, and all I could think was how snobby it was.
Someone else mentioned the crazy stampede for seats at Celebration. Don’t get me started. The first time I attended Celebration and saw that happen, all I could think was, “These people aren’t the poster-child Christians the ‘movement’ says they are.” It was the rudest, most selfish action I had ever seen in a gathering of any sort, Christian or not. Right up there with WalMart on Black Friday.
Oh, freedom!
Mommy2boo – I am very sorry I misunderstood. Please forgive me. Regarding, ” I take Him at His word when he says that He will work all things together for our good”….I was physically and sexually abused growing up. Then, I added to that being spiritually abused as an adult. I can say that God has worked it all for my good. I told my pastor that if I could go back and change that stuff in my life I wouldn’t. It is part of what made me who I am and made me seek God all the more. Sometimes, when I see a dad and daughter that really love one another – my heart hurts; but, only for a brief moment. I have given all of my past to God and He has given me way more than others took from me.
Nickname – Your comments on the stampede remind me of a funny facebook post the day after Thanksgiving: “Black Friday: because only in America do people trample one another for sales the day after being thankful for what they already have.”
Regarding CJ’s teaching to dress “modestly”, I think doing so was just another indicator as to who the pastors can trust. It was a measure of which husbands/fathers had their wives/daughters in line. It was another test of how “spiritual” the husband/father was.
This was only one of the tests. Another was simply how each man spoke. If a father mentioned in caregroup that he was going to talk to his son about “the birds and the bees” or have “the talk”, it was considered worldly. My former caregoup leader, who I believe had good intentions, spoke in a way that always spiritualized the most common tasks. Instead of just chatting with the men about an impending talk with his adolescent son, he sent an e-mail with the subject line, “Special News!”. In his email he explained that he was going to take his son on a weekend camping trip “to shepherd him into manhood”. When I received this e-mail, I thought that only in SGM would someone understand his intentions. Outsiders would think he was a molester or going to hire a prostitute. The letter asked for prayer, but in some way, I thought it braggadocios. I thought that he was announcing that he was more manly because he was the first to talk to his son about sex and sexuality. He was leading the rest of us, expecting we would follow his example. After “the” weekend, he sent out a follow-up email to tell everyone about how successful he was. His son had listened, learned and was rewarded with a commemorative sword.
I don’t know if CJ or any of the pastors taught specifics on how to talk to sons and daughters about sex. However, I think there was great pressure to appear to be “spiritual” among others inside and outside the church. I understand bearing fruit. But these displays were classic CJ. They had a false appearance of humility. They were instead expressions of pride and elitism.
Dressing modestly, spiritual speech, and excessive control of one’s family were all markers of a man’s potential for leadership. SGM did not only produce Stepford wives, but also Stepford husbands.
I find the comments in this thread to be some of the more disturbing stuff I’ve seen (except all the molestation at SGM &CLC).
This group was a full-on cult at least a decade ago by the stuff I see here, likely from the cultish PDI name and origin, and it got worse from there.
I don’t know how anyone could sit through those comments- any single one would send most running for the door. The brainwashing and mind control is deeply disturbing.
I truly fear for those who don’t realize they need to flee all SGM churches NOW. (that includes the cult factions that left recently like CLC, who created most of these cultish beliefs).
Seriously, telling you when to pee? Ushers at the door reporting tardiness?
At this point, anyone who stays kind of enables what happens next, and to some extent will own what happens to them in SGM part 2. Like most sequels, probably worse than part 1.
A commemorative SWORD? This is cracking me up.
Ok, any of you grown sons out there — what was your real take on the camping trip that shepherded you into manhood. How did you keep from laughing?
Oh, I am sooo glad our kids were pretty much grown by the time all this foolishness started.
#120 We like each other.
I am reading much of these experiences for the first time. Much of it prompts me to educate myself on the “Shepherding Movement”…for my own enlightenment. I know many of the SGM churches say “we aren’t like that”…I was personally told at CoG that they were not like that. But that’s like my child hanging out with kids who enjoy torturing animals and when caught my child tells me “Yes…I was with them but I didn’t participate…I’m not like that Dad”. In my opinion, the SGM churches who are quick to say…”We’re not like them” may be some of the most damaged of SGM churches. Why would a SGM church continue to pledge allegiance to the SGM brand on one side of the pendulum while on the other side of the pendulum always having to cry out “We’re not like them”. Good grief…that’s like saying…”We’re not molesters, perverts, or abusers but we sure do enjoy their company and hanging out with them!” My “Watchtower” alerts to CoG pastors, have for the most part, fallen on deaf ears. There’s nothing more I can say to them that they haven’t heard already…by me and others much closer to them. My intent writing on this blog is not getting people “on my side”…I find the blog therapeutic in my need to release my frustrations so they don’t build up and explode. Thanks for listening.
Terry – “In my opinion, the SGM churches who are quick to say…”We’re not like them” may be some of the most damaged of SGM churches. Why would a SGM church continue to pledge allegiance to the SGM brand on one side of the pendulum while on the other side of the pendulum always having to cry out “We’re not like them”. That is so true!!!!!!!
A commemorative sword?
Well Jack Schaap has something to add to that which I won’t even post the link too(saw it on WWW a few months ago) but I can’t believe that his congregation watched when he polished the sword and didn’t say anything. (google it if you want to watch it on u tube).
Just shows me that people in the pews are extremely naive, gullible and trusting….just like a few of us with pdi/sgm in years past.
Better to be questioning, skeptical and doubting than believe everything someone tells you.
Now that’s where believing the best gets you….in position to look like a fool. Fool me once shame on you…fool me twice shame on me. Proverbs 26:11 Like a dog that returns to his vomit is a fool that repeats his folly.
Director Of Mars Hill tweets about SGM 1st amendment defense
https://twitter.com/justinholcomb/status/295311294066720768
Enjoying Freedom,
Mars Hill may want to be careful. Mahaney was one of Driscoll’s “mentors” back when Driscoll was in the ‘ingroup’. But then, Mars Hill has had such a staff turnover that this young guy probably does not even know…
Kris said:
As one of the person’s that has brought up Chad’s alleged pot smoking incident, I also was careful not to use Chad’s name back then. I would agree that with Chad now being adult and him now “joining the family business” that listing his name is fair game.
I did then and now see it more of an issue with C.J. Mahaney and him lacking integrity and not abiding by the same standards he imposed on other leaders. As we have seen now, this wouldn’t be the first time that C.J. Mahaney didn’t live by the same rules he imposed on other SGM Leaders. With C.J. Mahaney being so lacking in integrity to blackmail the group’s cofounder (even consult a lawyer to see how legal it was) then it wouldn’t be surprising if Mahaney covered up his son’s sin as has been alleged. I also wonder what other hidden sin’s Mahaney has that haven’t been revealed.
I still find it appalling that C.J. Mahaney with his son could write a blog entry about your “sin finding you out” with all the sin that Mahaney has done that has “found him out.” Mahaney kind of reminds me of when Jimmy Swaggart made remarks about Jim Bakker’s at the time recently revealed sin when at the same time Swaggart was doing the same thing (but hadn’t become public yet). I remember one time hearing how Mahaney even criticized Swaggart for his hypocrisy but sadly is now doing something quite similar.
Nickname,
I hate to say this about your comment but you know what it reminded me of? The couples we knew who had come out of the cultic Amway groups back in the 90’s. Their stories sound just like what you described when it came to the conferences, seminars and being on stage, ‘edifying’ their leaders constantly, even the being late stuff. Same exact stuff!
I came to the conclusion the only way to be in one of those groups was to check your brains at the door adn become a perpetual adult child seeking the approval of the great parents. From what I gather, it is a culture they create and people get caught up in it.
Steve240: The reason why CJ and son can post things like this is because people like CJ do not see their own sin. It’s true narcissism. I saw it with my former pastor. There’s another pastor I have been following who this week is promoting his series on false teachers and how to spot them. He’s talking about himself and can’t see it. Narcissism. Plain and simple.
Enjoying Freedom @127 — Concerning the tweet from J Holcomb regarding SGM…I hope this will be a catalyst in drawing comments from others who have been quiet on the subject.
Concerning the Gospel Coalition conference… it is mentioned at CLC site as a worthwhile conference to attend. Does this indicate that JH has not been snubbed by TGC, but maybe he is not a speaker by his own choice. He has a lot on his plate just now.
Oswald 132 CLC is sending people down to lead the TGC Nat’l Conference hospitality team. So, I guess they are still involved.
@oldtimer,
Here (at the same site where Larry Tomczak posted his response to the charges in the lawsuit) is Jack Schaap’s defense. He was stressed out.
http://www.charismanews.com/us/35166-former-pastor-jack-schaap-blames-affair-with-teen-on-personal-problems
But even more interesting I find the response of someone using the name Rosalie Dann; who scolds the commenters for discussing Jack Schaap’s sin AND blames church members for their leaders falling into sin. We did not sufficiently support them or pray for them.
Oswald & Enjoying Freedom – Re: J Holcomb – Oswald was right. He didn’t know. He has been informed. Whether or not he cares, who knows?
God is exposing idols in His church. He’s coming back for a bride…not a prostitute. I’m not exempt either…been some serious “heart exposure” within my own life. SGM has made ministry an idol…above God. Everyone pointing fingers…it’s the leaders fault…it’s the member’s fault. I’m waiting to hear “It’s My Fault”…not holding my breath though.
Julie Anne said (about Mahaney & son writing about your sin will find you out):
Narcissism with Mahaney is quite an understatement unfortunately. If ever there is an example, Mahaney is one about where in Jeremiah it says the heart is “sick.”
It is just surprising that so many people in SGM tolerate something like this. This would include pastors of local SGM Churches. Apparently Mahaney’s charisma is enough to make these leaders want to ignore Mahaney’s hypocrisy.
Do I sound unmerciful and hardhearted? I worry that my reactions are too far to one side. I feel zero mercy. Capital punishment for this cr@p.
This is from Phoenix’s link.
This creep is in his 50s, counseling kids at a school, and starts up an affair with a counselee who is 16.
He gets 140 letters of support!!!!! ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY freaking letters of support. Can you imagine the lifelong damage to the soul of the girl? He was a charmer, he seduced her, and people are writing letters of support?????????? Aren’t we supposed to want to amputate some gonads and lock these guys up for life? What is the matter with people???
Whay don’t people get it about children, and that verse about not making them stumble or better to be drowned? Why don’t SGMers get it? Why don’t people realize that kids are to be protected and nurtured and valued above our own wants and reputation? Why do people support wicked pastors at the expense of children? I just DO NOT GET IT.
AAAGGGHH.
Kris said:
With Mahaney supposedly being a Calvinist I wonder even more. Doesn’t Calvinism teach “total depravity?” If Lance Armstrong isn’t a believer, what more would a Calvinist expect of Lance Armstrong? “Total Depravity” is what the “T” stands for in TULIP.
If you look up “total depravity” in Wikapedia you will get this:
If Lance Armstrong is “enslaved to the service of sin” why would Mahaney expect any better? I don’t believe in Calvinism but just am baffled when someone who supposedly believes in it wants to criticize a nonbeliever when what they teach one would expect this kind of behavior.
Dear 5 Years,
I think God appreciates your passion for this young girl and his other victims. That is a good thing.
These same people who wrote in to support the predator instead of the victim were the same people who watched this predator go through the following disgusting sermon. It’s only 2 minutes long but don’t watch if you are feeling sick to your stomach.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr0UpQXYkGs
After watching that video, I agree with 5 years…
Off with his gonads!!!
I watched that video a few months ago. I couldn’t believe that this was a teaching to a group of youth and that all the adults just sat there as if it was normal . . . Amens and all :( The man should never be around children again.
Oswald #132 Joshua Harris is a council member for TGC (of course so is CJ). CLC is heading up the hospitality/greeting teams this year. Apparently, we’re very interested in supporting this conference.
One new thing at CLC today, the message was on healing today, there was prayer for healing, and also they annointed with oil and had oil now available at the front of the church. This hasn’t been done in many years (not that we haven’t prayed for those who were sick). Another step back to our charismatic roots!! Nice to see.
” Joshua Harris is a council member for TGC (of course so is CJ). CLC is heading up the hospitality/greeting teams this year. Apparently, we’re very interested in supporting this conference.”
Josh’s stubborn refusal to break from false teachers and from unholy alliances built on money reveals much about what matters to him. Are people who “believe the best” at this point simply seeing only what they want to see?
Didn’t Jesus and several others warn of associating with false teachers? The only conclusion can be either:
A) josh doesn’t know those passages
B) he agrees with the conference speakers’ teachings and doctrine
Both equally disturbing for a full time “shepherd” of God’s people, and something to think about.
MAK…I am shocked to hear they didn’t do James 5 prayer all along. nice news.
stunned, I watched it. He knows exactly what he is doing. Revolting. Lock him up for life.
Did you see this quip in the comments?
“I don’t think it’s cocaine…I think it’s simple lust and insanity.”
I don’t know why people flock to hear these guys. (Never could figure it out with CJ either.)
Phoenix @134 — “[Rosalie Dann]…blames church members for their leaders falling into sin”. In a way, I think this is partly true. Whenever CJ came to CovFel, it was announced well in advance so we could invite others to come and hear him, as if he had some information that no one else could give, the real inside track. You might have thought that God himself was coming to speak. How could these guys not begin to think that they really are ‘all of that’. And I wonder if we don’t assume that our leaders are so spiritual and above us in purity and biblical knowledge that they surely don’t need us underlings to pray for them.
Just sayin’.
Concerned @ 144,
Those are pretty broad (and I think unfair)statements about Joshua and The Gospel Coalition.
Could you be a bit more specific?
MAK @143 — There have been hints of charismatic roots showing at CovFel, too. CovFel does have once-a month healing after each service for any who want it. And there has been personal prophecy for people given who came forward at the end of the meeting. We used to have ‘Holy Spirit Meetings’; prophecy, healing, personal prayer/ministry, etc, but those have not been seen for some years.
Steve240 @139 — PLEASE don’t go to calvinism again, as Kris has asked. This is not the place. And we need not look-up td, we’ve heard it a hundred times here, and debated it’s meaning.
But you are right to say that doing the right thing should not be expected of a non-christian, because ‘the heart is deceitful above all thing and desperately wicked, who can know it’.
@149 — ‘the heart is deceitful above all thing and desperately wicked, who can know it’, Jer 17:9. This verse sounds like a description of total depravity. (couldn’t resist, sorry)