Deceptive Disclaimer?
March 5, 2013 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Here’s an update for those of you still interested in the topic of Tim Challies’ February 28 blog post telling people how to “think biblically” about C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries . . .
I said a few days ago that although I was glad to see Mr. Challies finally writing something about SGM that wasn’t an advertisement but actually made mention of the lawsuit and questions about C.J. Mahaney’s fitness for ministry, I was puzzled by how he prefaced his post with this disclaimer:
Before I begin, it may be useful for me to explain the nature of my relationship with C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries, though there is actually very little to explain. I recall meeting Mahaney only one time and for no more than two or three minutes. To my knowledge we have never corresponded by email or any other media. He and I have never shared a speaking platform and I have never spoken at a SGM event (though I did liveblog a couple of them several years ago). All this to say that I write as an outside observer rather than as a personal friend and write this article primarily for the benefit of other outside observers.
I went on to point out that while Tim Challies may not have met Mahaney often or shared a stage with him, it was nonetheless true that Mr. Challies has been one of SGM’s and CJ’s frequent promoters through his many positive mentions of them on his (in the Reformed world) fairly high-traffic blog.
But apparently, there’s something more, something that goes beyond the fact that Tim Challies has been a big fan of C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries. There is a business relationship. Check out what the Wartburg Watch gals dug up:
[Tim Challies] is a co-founder of Cruciform Press . . .
. . . Challies first announced Cruciform Press in an April 2010 post on his website. In case you missed it, here’s the exciting news:
“…let me tell you about an exciting new venture I am involved in. Let me introduce you to [insert drum roll here] Cruciform Press.
Cruciform Press is an alternative publishing company designed from the ground up to operate in the digital marketplace. And it officially launches today.
This is a collaborative effort between Kevin Meath (book editor extraordinaire who has edited books for authors like C.J. Mahaney, Paul David Tripp and Dave Harvey), Bob Bevington (an entrepreneur and optometrist who also happens to co-author books with Jerry Bridges) and me. Together we see the need for a model of publishing that begins with, not extends to, the new realities of this digital world.
As a publisher getting its start at the cusp of the digital age, our model is slightly different from traditional publishers. We are focusing on books between 10,000 and 25,000 words (roughly 50 to 100 pages) and will offer them at great prices in print-on-demand, e-book and audiobook formats. And we intend to publish a new book on the first of every month.”
Cruciform Press Founders
As mentioned above, Cruciform Press was co-founded by Kevin Meath, Bob Bevington, and Tim Challies. Meath serves as the Publisher and Editor hat, Bevington is the Executive Director, and Challies is Strategy and Acquisitions.
We believe Kevin Meath is the Smoking Gun. Meath’s bio on the Cruciform Press website says it all. Here’s how it begins:
“Kevin has more than 25 years professional experience as an editor, including eleven years as chief editor for Sovereign Grace Ministries. He has worked on more than 40 book projects for the Christian market, and has edited for C.J. Mahaney, Paul Tripp, John Piper, Jerry Bridges, Joel Beeke, Richard D. Phillips, Scotty Smith, Dave Harvey, and many others. He has worked with Multnomah, Crossway, Reformation Trust, Shepherd Press, New Growth Press, Founders Press, Sovereign Grace Ministries, Revive Our Hearts, Focus on the Family, Desiring God, and others.”
Meath also features testimonials by the likes of C.J. Mahaney, Paul Tripp, Bob Kauflin, Dave Harvey, and Gary Ricucci. Also, you might be interested to know that Kevin Meath was heavily involved in the publication of Sovereign Grace Magazine. He writes:
“Sovereign Grace magazine was published for more than 20 years, most of that time as a bi-monthly. I served as Editor for the final seven years.
When it came time to plan an issue, C.J. Mahaney and I would work together to identify the issue theme, as well as the lead teaching articles and their respective authors. I would then work with the authors of the teaching, news, and testimony articles to bring the issue to completion, although sometimes I was also tasked with converting a sermon transcript or book chapter into an article on behalf of the author… The issues shown here included articles that later contributed to several books, including C.J.’s Humility: True Greatness, Living the Cross-Centered Life, and Worldliness, and Bob Kauflin’s Worship Matters.”
According to the testimonials link above, here are some of the projects on which Meath has collaborated:
When Sinners Say “I Do”: Discovering the Power of the Gospel for Marriage – Dave Harvey
Love That Lasts: When Marriage Meets Grace – Gary and Betsy Ricucci
Songs for the Cross Centered Life – Sovereign Grace Music
Upward: The Bob Kauflin Hymns Project – Sovereign Grace Music
Sex, Romance, and the Glory of God: What Every Christian Husband Needs to Know – C.J. Mahaney
Biblical Foundations for Manhood and Womanhood (Foundations for the Family Series) – Wayne Grudem
Valley of Vision – Sovereign Grace Music
The Cross Centered Life (both editions) – C.J. Mahaney
Awesome God – Sovereign Grace Music
Savior: Celebrating the Mystery of God Becoming Man – Sovereign Grace Music
Preaching the Cross – Together for the Gospel by Mark Dever, J. Ligon Duncan, R. Albert Mohler, Jr., C.J. Mahaney (2007)
All We Long to Sing – Sovereign Grace Music
Pastoral Leadership for Manhood and Womanhood (Foundations of the Family) – Wayne Grudem and Dennis Rainey
Why Small Groups? – C.J. Mahaney
So, while Tim Challies is not best buddies with C.J. Mahaney, he is business partners with a former long-time SGM employee who collaborated with most of the bigger name SGM authors and musicians and retains good enough relationships with these SGM leaders that they provided him with the testimonials cited above.
I don’t know about you guys, but I confess to being rather shocked. Doesn’t it seem deliberately deceptive, to offer up a disclaimer worded just right so that your readers will think you’re an “outside observer” and not a “personal friend,” when the truth is that you run a publishing house with someone who has a decades-long history of membership in SGM as well as connections to just about all the key SGM books and materials the organization has put out?
Does it even matter whether Tim Challies is not C.J.’s “personal friend,” when he is business partners with someone – Kevin Meath – who has such an incredibly far-reaching SGM pedigree and continues to use endorsements by C.J. Mahaney and other SGM figures to boost his own credibility?
I mean, wouldn’t Mr. Challies’ words about his lack of a close relationship with C.J. have been completely meaningless if he’d gone on to disclose that he actually does have this other connection to Sovereign Grace Ministries?
What does this sort of obfuscation tell us about Tim Challies’ ability to “think biblically”?
At the very least, it seems to me someone’s a little bit confused about what the Bible actually teaches about truthfulness. In God’s eyes, it’s not enough to adhere to the technical truth. (Just check out how Abram and Sarai got themselves into trouble when they told a story that was technically true – Sarai was indeed Abram’s half-sister – but not the full truth.)
I’m bummed. I have had a considerable amount of respect for Tim Challies in past years. I actually did used to believe that he was someone who had some good thoughts about “thinking biblically.” Now, though? Not so much.
© 2013, Kris. All rights reserved.
Ouch. Sounds like the RealTim is plenty fake.
FakeJohnP, FakeBrent, etc are definitely humorous. But I got the biggest laugh from #133, Jenn’s quote of the SGM worship conference press release: “…global family of 70 churches.”
Global? Can 70 of anything cover the globe? Maybe the one in my living room.
Here’s a thoughtful, thorough discussion of the lawsuit and CLC/SGM culture from a fellow former CLCer and commenter here on Survivors.
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/6788/a_church_group__a_lawsuit__and_a_culture_of_abuse/
Anne — CLC 1986-2007
Oh my goodness, this is quite the reach!
But while we’re at it, I did see someone recently who had Challies’ book on the same bookshelf as Ceej. So maybe there is more to this connection than meets the eye!
Conspiracy!
Johann,
I’m not saying there’s a conspiracy. It’s just really disingenuous of Tim Challies to try, on the basis of the fact that he’s not friends with C.J. Mahaney, to establish himself as an outside observer, when all along he is actually business partners with a (former?) SGMer who obviously would have a vested interest in propping up the reputations of the very men he uses as references for his publishing business.
I understand the impulse, but I think this is a pretty shaky accusation. There is plenty of substantive material catalogued here on this site to keep a serious conversation going without diverting into these kinds of far-fetched and presumptuous speculations.
Johann,
What are you saying is “shaky”? You don’t find it odd that Challies would say he hardly knows C.J. Mahaney, but is a business partner with a long time SGM editor and together they regularly publish SGM books? Instead of calling himself an outsider, shouldn’t Challies have said, “I have deep financial ties with SGM through publishing, though I don’t know C. J. Mahaney well”?
I see Challies’ spin and timing as a futile, last-ditch effort to support his dear friend and hero, CJ Mahaney. He obviously admires CJ and he even sounds like him so, it pointless for Challies to claim he is not close to him in any concrete way. Do these guys really think we believe everything they say?
En serio?? This is amusing that you’re making this your ground.
El Pastor, if Tim Challies is regularly publishing SGM books, why don’t you give us a short list of the various SGM authors and titles? Surely there must be many to choose from. CJ? Kauflin? Ricuccie? I must be missing them.
“Deep financial ties”?? Give me a break.
If this is the direction of the SGM watchdogs here, the substantial concerns must be less severe than I thought.
It’s no “impulse,” to believe that Tim Challies’ obvious conflict of interest should have been disclosed before going on to literally call himself an outside observer and then go on to tell his readers to believe the best of CJ and the other lawsuit defendants while advising them to learn as little as possible about SGM’s issues.
And then calling that “thinking biblically.”
Come on! Really?
It’s a bit like someone who writes a restaurant review but fails to mention that he’s in business now with one of the guys who used to help the restaurant owners advertise…and still uses the owners’ endorsements of his advertising prowess.
Also, Johann, a discussion of Challies’ strange lack of disclosure about his business relationship with a longtime SGM editor has nothing to do with whether or not SGM’s issues are “substantive” enough to warrant talking about. I said at the outset of this post that it was for people who are still interested in this topic. If that’s not you, that’s fine with me.
Those of us who have been watching the SGM situation unfold for awhile (in my case, since 2007) understand that part of what has enabled SGM’s abuses for so long is the willful blindness and silence of the other leaders in the Reformed world. As a blogger and reviewer, Tim Challies has become a person of influence in that world. He bears some responsibility for SGM’s rise to respectability. His multitudes of mentions of SGM and SGM authors and CJ himself have certainly caused people to become part of SGM churches. (I know, because Guy and I were one of the families who showed up at SGM because of the good buzz they were getting in the blogosphere.)
To finally piece together a tangible connection between Challies and SGM – especially in light of his own recent disclaimer insinuating there IS no such connection – is rather remarkable.
And discussion-worthy.
If you don’t get that, it’s OK. Sometimes it takes awhile to piece together everything and understand how SGM has hidden behind the glossy press it’s gotten from the likes of Challies.
But don’t presume to tell those of us who have been longtime observers what we should and should not be talking about.
Johann 8
If you cannot correctly spell the names of the principals involved, you probably aren’t among those who should be following this case closely.
Concerning the ‘Fake’ twitter accounts in the previous thread…I would not be surprised if the Piper one was created by Abraham Piper, John’s #3 son. That guy has a great sense of humor, while being irreverent and relevant at the same time. And, IMO he loves a good joke, even (or especially) at his father’s expense. Though, I think he loves and respects his father…just probably figures ‘the old man can take it’, and knowing his father is secure enough. But, who knows, I could be wrong.
Really, Johann? This is a HUGE conflict of interest and completely eviscerates Challies assertion that he is little more than an impartial outsider with no connection to Mahaney. C’mon!
I’ve spent the past several hours reading ‘The Stories’. I was not familiar with some of them. The whole experience was very enlightening and often very sad, and maddening.
I was especially struck by a sentence in Greg’s story, where he says he had been left uncovered in prayer, and the effect it had on him. It reminded me of how very important it is to pray for people, especially those who we are a part of or who are a part of us, like children, grandchildren, spouses, parents, our government; those whom God has put in our way.
Extremely sad and frustrating things going on in Sovereign Grace Church of Chesapeake, VA.
SGC of Chesapeake decided (don’t know if the Congregation voted or the Pastors decided)to formally sever ties with SovGraceMin, Sovereign Grace Ministries, SGM several weeks ago.
Since then they’ve excommunicated a former member with a 25+ year history with the church, including being an member or the original church planting team with Steve and Janis Shank.
Seems this member wasn’t (or hasn’t) shown up to church enough.
Seems that this member didn’t go to Care Group/Home Group enough.
Seems this member’s wife and children were going to another church.
The problem occurred when this member found out they were dismembered/excommunicted by accident.
They pursued the Sr Pastor and set up a meeting to discuss why this member’s church membership was removed/revoked/excommunicated.
The Pastors are telling everyone (well, those who inquire) that this is NOT excommunication because it’s not censure/discipline.
Oh, I see.
Take someone’s membership away (and all the privileges that come with membership)and tell them they’re not being disciplined.
Here, have another glass of Kool-Aid while we’re at it.
It’s exploded in a messy mess (gasp) all over facebook with the latest debacle being this:
A defender of those in power (never the wounded or the abused, mind you) posted two days ago that they had a “picture” from God about the facebook people who were throwing logs on the fire and attacking Jesus’ church.
He linked online discussions and social media discourse to the “unnatural fire” that Nadab and Abihu offered to God in Levitus 10 which resulted in God sending holy fire to consume them (kill them).
Several people added to the discourse and prompted the original poster to the ‘meaning’ of the “unnatural fire” etc.
Someone attributed it to what happened to Ananais and Sapphira in Acts 5.
The writer/poster shares their “picture” from God rebuking and warning this person facebook friends not to tear down the church with their comments on facebook.
I found it highly offensive.
I felt violated and threatened.
So far very few people (I think 3-5) have “Liked” the post.
That’s telling in and of itself because usually when someone from this church posts something negative about the blogs, Brent D., gossip/slander, etc., the post thread BLOWS UP with “Likes” and positive comments.
Maybe it was just too ‘out there’ to try and link social media discourse and the bringing of a church conflict to facebook with offering “strange fire” in the temple and being consumed and struck dead by God with Holy Fire.
A great stretch was the whole Ananais and Sapphira ‘connection’ they tried to make.
I guess selling a piece of property, holding back part of the sale and lying about it to the apostles and God is the same as bringing a conflict with your Pastors and your church to a social media venue because you don’t have a a means or an avenue to have or grievance/conflict/problem heard or mediated?
Uh oh. Those posters are looking at some pretty serious censuring – being struck down by God or falling dead backwards out of a window and being eaten by dogs.
Scary stuff.
On top of all that – the church’s young adult ministry, Access, invited(or was it the Pastors?) Nathan Sasser from SGCL to speak at their monthly Access Meeting.
In fact, he spoke at a mini-conference Sat. morning and Sat. evening.
Lots of love-bomb posts on facebook about that as well.
Sever formal ties with SGM but invite Sasser to Access?
I just don’t get it.
(Is the nausea I’m feeling about all of this normal, you think…?)
And Johann @#5 and #8
If you can’t see the relationship between Challies’ and C.J. Mahaney (and Sovereign Grace Ministries) after all the ‘dirt’ and info that Kris and the gals at the Wartburg Watch dug up starting with Kevin Meath (Former SGM employee/Magazine Editor/Ghost Writer), Cruciform Publishing (partnership with Challies and Meath), and the 26 (count ’em) PAGES of blurbs, hits, reviews, plugs, articles, etc., on Challies’ blog mentioning, reviewing, or regarding Mahaney, and SGM…
Well, I don’t think anyone could convince you that water is wet or the sky is blue either.
Have another glass of kool-aid, my friend.
It’s usually red and sickeningly sweet.
Just because a church leaves sgm doesn’t mean sgm leaves them. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
These people are deluded if they believe they can force a member from their church…oh they can do it-that happened to our family also. I guess they are deluded.
Well, I suppose they own their particular brand of church. And if you don’t play the way they want you to-you can go home.
I think I’ve heard that before when my kids were little. We’ll play the way I want or I’m not playing with you.
not to beat a dead horse but Johann
To lie is to deliver a false statement to another person which the speaking person knows is not the whole truth, intentionally.
This is just another way SGM has infected the reformed world, inside and out.
That is why it is mentioned here. Keep reading please. Go back to the top of this page and read “The Stories…” Then please come back and comment.
Sorry, continued from above, another definition at Dictionary.com is:
lie
1 [lahy] Show IPA . noun, verb, lied, ly·ing.
noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood. Synonyms: prevarication, falsification. Antonyms: truth.
2.
something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3.
an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood.
4.
the charge or accusation of telling a lie: He flung the lie back at his accusers.
verb (used without object)
5.
to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive. Synonyms: prevaricate, fib.
6.
to express what is false; convey a false impression.
What do we say now, if TRUTH be told, you tell me, is SGM continuing to LIE?
This was referring to Challies and also to SGM Leaders.
Maybe that is the problem. Challies and SGM Leaders are so use to dumb sheep that would always “believe the best” and not question. Apparently they still have that same mentality.
I’ve been thinking more about this whole thing, and it sort of boggles my mind that anyone would try to defend the kind of parsing that Tim Challies did in his post about how to “think biblically” about CJ and SGM.
What if, instead of writing that paragraph at the beginning in which he attempted to establish that he has no friendship with CJ Mahaney, and is therefore an outsider, he would have said something like this:
Would anyone have thought that his other claims, about not being buddies with CJ and not having ever shared a stage with him, even mattered in light of this business partnership he has with Kevin Meath?
It begs the question, why didn’t Challies mention Cruciform Press and its SGM ties?
Is it because if he had done so, people would have thought that he wasn’t actually concerned with “thinking biblically” as much as he was concerned about CJ’s and SGM’s reputations?
For all the kool-aid talk around here, it sure seems that the gullibility and suspicion factor on this thread is high.
Like Mr. Darcy, it’s seems that you never look upon a woman (read: anything or anyone associated with SGM) but to spot a blemish.
El Pastor, I’m still looking for that list of ways Challies has “deep financial ties” with SGM.
Johann said,
I’m not El Pastor, Johann, but I’ll do my best to break it down for you.
Along with two partners, Tim Challies runs a business called Cruciform Press.
Cruciform Press was presumably begun to sell books and make make money for its owners.
One of Tim Challies’ partners at Cruciform Press is Kevin Meath.
Kevin Meath was an SGMer for a long time (at least 20 years).
Kevin Meath’s career has been primarily built upon endeavors with SGM guys like CJ Mahaney. He even cites his work as editor of the PDI/SGM magazine as a professional accomplishment.
CJ Mahaney, Bob Kauflin, and other SGM authors, along with several SGM sympathizers, have provided Kevin Meath with endorsements so that he can promote himself and his accomplishments as an editor and publisher.
If CJ’s/SGM’s reputation becomes sullied in the eyes of the people who comprise the target audience for books from Cruciform Press, endorsements from CJ and the other SGM employees and sympathizers will not hold much clout – and could likely become detrimental to Kevin Meath’s (and Cruciform Press’) credibility.
If Kevin Meath and Cruciform Press lose credibility with their book-buying audience, Tim Challies won’t make any money from this business venture.
That’s what’s called a deep financial tie.
Now quit being deliberately obtuse.
My jaw dropped when I read this over at Wartburg Watch. And Challies’ business relationships are none of anyone’s business UNTIL he comes out and starts claiming impartiality. I don’t give a rat’s behind who he does business with. UNTIL he starts trying to lead people to believe that he has no ties to CJ Mahaney, SovereignGraceMinistries, Dave Harvey or the other financial ties he has to this and other groups is not OK. I never read the guy and for the life of me, never understood why anyone cares what his or any other person’s opinion is on any subject. But clearly people do and he has an audience so he KNOWS that hundreds or maybe thousands of people are reading him and he has an influence on those. So WHY wouldn’t he come out and just say, “Look, I am about to write about CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries and just for full disclosure, here’s the connection…”?
How hard would that have been? Or even to remain silent about the connection? (That would have taken far less integrity but still.) However, to make a point to say that there is no connection? Why, when there is a connection?
PS. When my local news station says anything about a larger company, who owns them… (what is it? GE owns NBC or used to)… they always preface it with, “GE owns our station”. How does this group of supposed non-believers have more integrity than this supposed Christian writer?
Stunned
who messes up plenty of times, too
Kris,
I’m shocked at you – you should recognize a clear troll when you see it! (Johanna) stop feeding!
Thanks for the challie$ post- it really connects the dots really well. We all knew money or power was involved, now we know how.
Very helpful info in understanding this diverse network of scoundrels, abusers, and thieves.
The link above (March 5, 10:47PM)to the article by T.F. at Religion Dispatches, is the best attempt I have read to get to the root of why these abuses have occurred.
“Concerned for the kids” said,
Actually, you’d be surprised at how often these Johann-type defenders aren’t really trolls but genuinely believe what they write. I find it fascinating (sometimes) to engage a little with them. It can give us a window into the mindset of people who deliberately suspend honest thinking and engage in all sorts of logical inconsistencies to maintain their hero worship.
For instance, I’ve noticed that a certain type of individual really needs to believe that his favorite authors/preachers are automatically above the normal human temptations the rest of us face – even though this person also affirms doctrines of the indwelling sin nature and would say that everyone, even believers, can still be lured by the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life. This person affirms this – except in the case of his favorite blogger or author or preacher. Those public figures are somehow too holy to succumb to ego or temptations of fame…or a desire to have a successful publishing house.
Virginia #27, yes, it is. I had the privilege of reading a earlier draft — and follow her blog.
Anyone know if SGM has announced CJ’s resignation as Brent indicated yet?
Anne– CLC 1986-2007
I’ve been thinking maybe my posts have an invisibility cloak/comment-shielding mechanism — thanks for breaking through.
Kris said:
Very good way to put this.
One example that comes to mind is ExCLCer’s Mom. CLC members had and some still have in their mind that Gary Ricuccis and John Loftness both could really do no wrong etc. Thus they had to assume or find some type of action that ExCLCer’s Mom did something wrong to justify their treatment of her.
A lot of people weren’t even open to the possibility that these two leaders could have done something wrong and had a high esteem of these leaders. Thus they had to find a way to justify the leaders’ actions so that they could continue their belief that the leaders were so grand etc.
Johann, unless you have lived it, it would seem overly suspicious. I am guessing you are not an SGM person, but a devoted Southern Baptist and probably a big fan of in crowd” (Dever, Mohler, etc..)But when you have been given partial truth time and time again, you become trained to look for it.
Hi Oswald, comment 12
Jared Wilson is @FakeJohnPiper
http://gospeldrivenchurch.blogspot.com/2011/09/some-reflections-on-being-fakejohnpiper.html
Brent has a new post up:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2013/3/6/the-watergate-scandal-and-sgm.html
A thought about links that get posted here…..
I am sure that as the lawsuit progresses there will be more and more articles, both secular and Christian, and many (are already and) will be well researched, accurate, and insightful.
The thing is though, what would the same blogger say about me/us, if they researched us?
For example, a recent blog link about SGM, if written about many of us instead, would probably rip us to shreds because:
1. We think homosexual practices are sin.
2. We think nobody comes to God the father except through Jesus Christ, and all other religions are false deceptions.
Now, among Christian bloggers, who are accurately decrying the terrible things in SGM, are those who would write equally critical things of me because:
1. I think- however it is you picture this works out in practice- that the bible teaches wives submit to husbands.
2. I hold to many Calvinistic/Reformed doctrines.
3. Or- even worse in some circles- I hold to some charismatic teachings.
4. I believe in creation and not evolution.
These are just a few examples. The list could be much longer. So in reading and posting links, it is well to consider if the writer would consider you to be just as terrible and horrible and worthy of criticism as they do SGM.
At this point, I tend to think Kris is the most level headed all around commentator on the subject on the internet.
************
H but H….your nausea is healthy. The stomach is meant to reject poison and vomiting is protective. We should all have a barf bucket handy reading here :)
Acme, that article was so articulate! I wish I could put things so well.
Stunned
5 Years, but why should it matter what someone else may think of us? Truth is truth, no matter what. Heck, I find some of the smartest people I know can’t stand me. ;)
5 Years said, “H but H….your nausea is healthy. The stomach is meant to reject poison and vomiting is protective. We should all have a barf bucket handy reading here :)”
AMEN!
Oswald….come on! There is another Fake John Piper account on Twitter. Though it hasn’t been updated in the past couple of weeks its due for an update! :-)
In the past “Pastor John Piper” commended SGM on practicing “The Gospel” of making 3 year olds forgive their molester.
THEN “Pastor John” issued an edict requiring all young woman at Bethlehem Baptist to be circumcised.
THEN there is the next “Desiring God” conference which is being planned in the Pakistani Tribal areas on the Afghanistan border. Plenty of Mullahs will be in attendance! :-P Maybe Mullah Omar will make a surprise visit and teach about doctrine. (hint, hint)
I would like to see “Pastor John” issue a fatwa calling for the execution of Greg Boyd, but I don’t know if I’ll run afoul of Twitter. :-P
When I read that Tim Challies article I was livid. As I explained on Wartburg Watch…there is another title Tim Challies can add to his resume:
Professional Liar and Brownnoser
Maybe he should also take an ethics class or two. Every job I have had required ethics training. His must be the exception.
5 years, who is the “we” of your post?
I’ve been on this blog since 2009. You only occasionally speak for me, even though we attended the same celebrations — the one where Bob Kauflin talked about depression and others.
There are a number of folks who read and comment here who disagree with your positions on Calvinism and complementarianism and homeschooling — and you regularly jump on to tell us not to throw the proverbial babies out with the bathwater.
Kris,
Wasn’t there an earlier post describing Tim Challies’ website/blog and his ties to receiving income (through Amazon because of the books, etc., that he reviews and recommends?
Was that a bad dream I had…?
Anyone?
Acme – I really appreciate your posting the link to the Religion Dispatches piece here and at TWW.
T.F. Charlton is a gifted writer, and quite insightful. I like her blog – and I disagree with her on some points, but I think it’s easy to “agree to disagree” with someone whose work is so thoughtful and nuanced.
5 Years – you can only speak for yourself, no? Not all of the commenters here, or on any other blog, for that matter.
Also… I honestly can’t imagine myself being 100% in agreement with any blogger or journalist. If I was, I think I would need to start questioning why I was doing it, because it would be pretty much the same as those who have given rubber-stamp approval to those in power at SGM (presently and formerly).
“… because it would be pretty much the same as giving rubber-stamp approval…”
(I know it’s after 12;00, but I’m still not awake!)
From Kris’s post:
“In God’s eyes, it’s not enough to adhere to the technical truth. (Just check out how Abram and Sarai got themselves into trouble when they told a story that was technically true — Sarai was indeed Abram’s half sister — but NOT THE FULL TRUTH)
NOT THE FULL TRUTH IS THE M.O. OF SGM — duplicity deceit lying — served up as “thinking & responding Biblically”
WHY????? To continue on in what they have constructed, manipulating the congregants to “DELIBERATELY SUSPEND HONEST THINKING AND ENGAGE IN ALL SORTS OF LOGICAL INCONSISTENCIES TO MAINTAIN THEIR HERO WORSHIP.” (quoted from Kris)
Hurting but Hopeful #15 reports the continuing duplicity in the Chesapeake church (Home of “Esthers Story” and the exposure of horribly abusive [former] pastors and SGM leadership). Stripping a member of the original church-planting team of his membership, yet telling congregants it isn’t excommunication because he isn’t censored or disciplined. (no membership = no voice or standing) AND this person was not even told about his own dismembering by pastors—but discovered it by accident??!!
WHY do SGM pastors and leadership have no conviction or courage just to SPEAK THE FULL OPEN TRUTH???????
Even if the truth isn’t what others may want to hear—truth is always best! Deceit/lack of full truth DECEIVES people.
The snake of deceit slithers everywhere — Challies, too, has bit into the SGMese speak of duplicity/incomplete truth, even titling his post how to “think Biblically about CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries”.
Thinking Biblically requires SEEKING TRUTH. Actively desiring to know truth.
In our own courts of law a witness is required to state “the TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH”
Truth is required to bring about rightness and justice.
5years,
It sounds as though you are proposing a litmus test for reading, considering, linking commentary on the SGM mess, I.e. whether the author agrees with you about your checklist of disputable matters. Are you?
You have also given the impression that acceptance of your views and specific affirmation of them is very important to you. Do you have the courage of your own convictions or not?
Rest assured that all regular readers here know your opinions on these issues and others and will consider them as appropriate. I would gladly work , worship, or enjoy communion beside you as a fellow believer but you do NOT speak for me or guide who I will read or listen to.
Shall we be on about His work now?
5yearsinPDI @ 34 –
I don’t understand your post. Are you trying to tell readers what posts to read and/or link to here at Survivors? Or that we should only listen to Kris? Although I find Kris highly knowledgeable about SGM and able to articulate her thoughts quite well, I doubt (but I could be wrong) that she desires guru status. I, personally, don’t wish to trade out one type of thought police for another. I think I need clarification.
Not alone I see. I agree with this:
“Rest assured that all regular readers here know your opinions on these issues and others and will consider them as appropriate. I would gladly work, worship, or enjoy communion beside you as a fellow believer but you do NOT speak for me or guide who I will read or listen to.”
I’m thinking people are misunderstanding what 5years was trying to say about the many points of view out there in the discussions about SGM.
The way I read 5years’ comment, it sounded like she was saying that some of the people who are condemning SGM would condemn the organization simply for holding to what many of us would consider to be middle-of-the-road orthodox Christian beliefs.
I’m pretty free ‘n’ easy with the discussion parameters here, but I will say this: please don’t dogpile on 5years.
Thanks.
Kris – I didn’t see anyone “dogpiling” – just responding.
But then, I also saw the mess that happened recently with comments about the women who own/run The Wartburg Watch, and I’m kind of astounded that (apparently) some folks are allowed to slam others – even to the point of (apparently) dictating how they should think – and get a free pass, while others who are simply trying to converse are called out for “dogpiling.”
(Back to TWW I go…)
Kris (again) – the use of “us” is troubling. Maybe the comment was written in haste – and maybe 5 Years can clarify for herself?
Thanks.