What Sovereign Grace Ministries Is Telling SGM Members About The Lawsuit
April 24, 2013 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Sovereign Grace sent the following letter to members recently:
Dear [Member Name],
Last October, we informed you of a lawsuit filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), two of the local churches that were at one point affiliated with SGM (Covenant Life Church and Sovereign Grace Church of Fairfax), and eight individually named pastor-defendants.
As a valued partner in Sovereign Grace’s mission to plant and build churches with the gospel of Jesus Christ, we write to update you on this matter and provide you with the latest details as we prayerfully trust the Lord and submit to the legal process.
The allegations in this lawsuit are vague and largely unclear, but to the extent they can be summarized, they claim that several church members were the victims of physical or sexual abuse by a number of alleged perpetrators at various times and places across a number of years and that a number of pastors failed to report this to the secular authorities. The suit alleges that some of the pastor-defendants failed to properly report the alleged abuse to the secular authorities after the victims’ parents told them of it. There is one pastor-defendant accused of abuse, and these accusations appear to be that he physically disciplined one of his children. We do not believe there was a “cover-up” of sex abuse or pedophiles at the two local churches involved and we trust that the local churches carefully reviewed any reports of abuse to see that the proper response was made. We would encourage any pastor or church member to step forward if they were aware of any such behavior.
Our actions on the legal front do not reflect a denial of real pain for the victims or an effort to avoid the rightful course of justice in these cases. Rather, we are simply exercising our right and obligation to oppose any litigation that claims, without any evidence, that SGM was involved with some sort of conspiracy to wrongfully or neglectfully respond to reports of sexual abuse. We do this while remaining devoted to caring for the victims of abuse and to encouraging our local churches to develop policies and practices to ensure they remain places of safety and healing. In the interest of pursuing truth, we are obligated to answer and defend accusations against our ministry, even at the risk of a perception of marginalizing our regard for any victims and their families. We regret this challenge and, again, commit to do all that we can to seek truth and minister to all who are affected by these allegations. If the process of review and evaluation of this case uncovers any issues of which we are not aware, the Board stands ready to address those concerns in a manner that pleases God and respects and cares for those affected.
We will keep you informed of any progress in the ongoing litigation and ask for your continued prayers for a just resolution to this lawsuit. We have received questions about the use of the 1st Amendment as a defense. Please make sure to read that section below. Here are the updates:
Motion to Dismiss Filed February 25, 2013
CarrMaloney, SGM’s counsel assigned by its insurer, determined there were a number of valid reasons to file a motion to dismiss the case with respect to SGM. As their motion states: “Plaintiffs’ First Amended Complaint is a vague, confusing document that fails to state any legal or factual basis for the claims against Defendant (SGM).” Because Plaintiffs’ complaint is so vague, it is difficult for SGM to know the specifics of the incidents that have been alleged. Further, the alleged reporting of abuse would have been handled at the local church level and therefore would have been a matter strictly left to the local churches, not SGM. SGM does not have the authority to control local churches or govern their internal affairs.
Below is a summary of SGM’s Motion to Dismiss, as filed on February 25, 2013. The entire motion is 25 pages long and is a matter of public record. Because many of the deficiencies in Plaintiffs’ allegations are applicable to all defendants, several of the arguments SGM made were similar to those made by the other defendants. The following is a summary of our arguments. (The sections below in quotes and italics are taken directly from SGM’s Motion to Dismiss.)
- “[Plaintiffs’] complaint is so vague and factually deficient that it is nearly impossible to tell who committed the acts of abuse and when and where the alleged acts of cover-up occurred, much less how old the alleged victims were both then and now. Plaintiffs appear to have done this in a deliberate effort to deprive SGM of the factual grounds that it is entitled to for various defenses, including statute of limitations.”
.- “By alleging the alleged tortious conduct was a product of the churches’ teachings that conditioned the church members to “unquestioningly obey” their “spiritual leaders,” Plaintiffs have put the spiritual and doctrinal affairs of SGM and the local churches directly at issue. Plaintiffs allegations therefore violate the Free Exercise Clause of the 1st Amendment and must be dismissed.”
.- According to Maryland law, Plaintiffs have failed to state valid claims or have no legal basis for any of the alleged torts against SGM on grounds of negligence, infliction of severe emotional distress, conspiracy to obstruct justice, negligent hiring and supervision, or misrepresentation. In addition, the Motion to Dismiss includes a number of grounds for dismissal relating to each individual plaintiff, including statute of limitations and lack of legal standing,
.- Even if Plaintiffs are able to show that their case satisfies the legal criteria for stating valid claims, they still have no grounds to impute liability to SGM based on the alleged acts of the other defendants. It appears they are alleging that SGM owned and operated both CLC and SG Fairfax, and that they can therefore impute to SGM any liability these churches have for the alleged cover-up actions of their pastor-defendants. However, SGM does not own, operate, or control any churches. And, at the time of the alleged conduct, SGM did not employ any of the defendants who are alleged to be “personally involved in the events that led to this lawsuit.” Therefore, there are no legal grounds to impute liability for the actions of the individual-defendants to SGM, which is simply a religious denomination, and does not control or govern the local churches.
1st Amendment Defense
The second point summarized above addresses the 1st Amendment defense. Plaintiffs claim that the alleged abuse and/or cover-up was a product of the local churches’ religious teachings and doctrines that ordered the church members to “unquestioningly obey” their pastors. Our First Amendment defense points out that such a claim cannot stand because it asks the court to inquire into the legality of the churches’ beliefs. It is a matter of religious liberty to not involve the courts in determining whether the doctrinal teaching and pastoral counseling of a ministry or church is done correctly in their eyes. That is why this is included as part of the legal defense.
I want to strongly emphasize that we are NOT in any way using the 1st Amendment as a defense to somehow protect sex abuse or a conspiracy to cover up crimes of any kind. We fully respect the gift from God of established legal authority according to Romans 13. And we strongly encourage all our churches to fully comply with all laws pertaining to the reporting of crimes in their state.
With these commitments firmly established and understanding the nature of this lawsuit, we must use all appropriate legal means to address the spurious and defamatory charge of a cover up of sexual abuse as well as all the destructive legal implications that come with this lawsuit.
Please note that our November 17, 2012 statement referenced this First Amendment issue prior to the filing of the Amended Complaint. I hope this explanation adds any needed clarity as to why it is necessary for our legal counsel to make this defense.
Next Steps
Now that SGM legal counsel has filed their Motion to Dismiss and the Plaintiffs have responded to the motion to dismiss, a hearing is scheduled on May 17, 2013 to consider the defendants’ arguments for dismissal. After this hearing, the judge will rule on the motion, normally within two months of the hearing. So, as we have communicated before, this is more of a marathon than a sprint. If the suit is not dismissed, the actual court date is currently scheduled to begin on February 3, 2014, but there are many things that could happen before then including judgment being granted in favor of some or all defendants based on the evidence presented during discovery.
We are all pained by a process by which we are perceived as “guilty until proven innocent” through a “trial” seemingly already taking place in the court of public opinion, resulting in myriad questions being asked based on incomplete information presented online. But, we are providing this information to ensure you that we are doing all we can to address these charges and address them in a way that honors God, and the members of Sovereign Grace churches. Thank you for your prayers and support.
Sincerely,
Tommy Hill
Director of Finance and Administration
Thoughts???
© 2013, Kris. All rights reserved.
Correction: There was one death of a young adult in a traffic accident.
Wasn’t there also teaching, especially by Mahaney, questioning the need to take medication for any type of mental illness? I am sure that medicine has been overprescribed but there as I understand there are chemical imbalances that some people need medicine for. Have someone like Mahaney question the need for any medicine could lead to people who need medication not taking it and having various issues including suicide.
I must admit to some level of discomfort regarding the topic of suicide; I have taught in public schools for greater than two decades (a second career) and have observed (and felt to some degree) the devastatation to families and communities that the suicide of a young person creates. The complexity of reasons for a young person taking their life is such that I resist, personally, the temptation to assign this or that reason for it. There is no explanation adequate for the family and friends, and though I empathize with those who recognize that authoritarian church systems may add to the fabric of issues that influence suicide, I think it best to not assign blame. If there is ever a time for mercy and grace–this is it.
I don’t comment on here very often but I couldn’t stay quiet about the topic of suicide. With a congregation of approximately 450 members, we had 2? suicides, many attempts or cries for help from others. What I observed was a shunning or condescending attitude toward those that attempted or had thoughts of suicide. One member attempted and was hospitalized many times with the attitude of “This is a sin issue”. I watched young adults teeter on the edge and struggle with not being able to see the grace of God. All they saw was their sin issues. Yes, some could have long term depression but ,in my opinion, SGM’s bent pushed them to the edge and over. The eulogy given at one beloved son’s funeral was his lack of faith and his sin. Mourners who were friends of the family almost got up and walked out but stayed to support the family. We also had talks about the shame of being on medication and for those suffering from depression. One young adult begged for people to call her during the week and pray with her. NO ONE CALLED!! The caregroup leaders were notified and aware. Fortunately, my daughter had been checking up on her but I had to call the mom to alert her to her daughter’s distress.
Suicide is definitely a difficult and very complex topic, and I agree with those who say it’s not a good idea to try and assign blame to one factor or another.
However, I do think that SGM, with its heavy anti-psychology, anti-therapeutic movement, and anti-medication biases would have to be one of the worst environments for someone struggling with suicidal thoughts. I was reading through the transcript of Andy Farmer’s 2009 The Pastor and the Counseling Process teaching again the other day and was once again struck by just how little of an understanding it sounds like SGM’s leaders have of mental illness. Mr. Farmer proposed to his audience (comprised of pastors attending the November 2009 SGM pastors’ conference) that when approached for counseling, it’s a good idea for a pastor to sort of test the waters and see how willing a counselee is to follow advice and work on their problems. Mr. Farmer suggested that if a member came for help but could not implement at least one or two simple suggestions, then the pastor should not continue to counsel him or her.
It was said in a way where it was obvious that a counselee’s lack of apparent effort to follow the pastor’s suggestions would be interpreted as something that reflected poorly on the counselee, where the counselee would be judged and assessed based on his ability to “help himself.”
To me, this shows SGM pastors’ tremendous lack of knowledge about serious mental illnesses. The person in the midst of really debilitating depression oftentimes simply cannot “just do it” and pull himself up by his bootstraps, so to speak.
Yet in that same teaching, pscyhiatric medications were spoken of in quite a negative light, as something that the pastor should guide the counselee to avoid. Other sources of professional counseling – including professional Christian counseling – were also disparaged.
I cannot imagine being an SGMer struggling with true mental illness, seeking help from my pastor (because that is clearly the only source of help SGM finds acceptable), only to have the pastor place secret conditions on whether or not he will continue to help me.
Again, I would never suggest that SGM is solely to blame for a member’s suicide. But at the same time, if someone were suicidal, it’s hard to imagine a less helpful environment.
ToProtectTheInnocent – I was one of those people who contacted all of the ladies in my homegroup/caregroup and basically said “I feel like I wanna die. I just wanna die. Please pray for me”… I probably sent it to 7 – 9 ladies in their early 20’s (I was 20 at the time). NO one called or emailed back or anything. On Sunday like 5 days later, someone said “Oh I got your email, how’d it go that night?” I basically said “Well, I am here, so I didn’t kill myself.”
Thankfully, I ended up in a church after that where I was VERY loved and cared for and God was able to heal many of those wounds and hurts, but it still makes me feel sick inside that no one cared enough to even email back.
I am a current member at an SG church. The members did not receive this letter from the elders. It was not included in the SGM email newsletter either. From the wording at the beginning, “As a valued partner in Sovereign Grace’s mission,” I would guess that it was sent to SGM donors. If that is the case, the elders at the church I attend would have felt no reason to pass it on to members because this particular church does not give any money to SGM.
Justawife –
I completely agree with you that attributing mental illness and/or depression to sin issues only (or at all) is wrong. If a church is going to claim that, then they need to say that all illness, deformities, birth defects, and cancers are caused by sin. None of which I believe. I would attribute most of these things to life lived in a broken world. On the other hand, we can personally contribute to “some” illness and disease (including mental/depression) by lack of proper care to our bodies and exposure to things that cause harm to the body, unknowingly and knowingly.
I agree that great harm can ensue when mental illness and depression are treated differently than any other illness or disease. There are many Christians out there who still believe that mental illness and depression are not medical issues because there is no “proof.” Therefore, they continue to say that it is “only” a spiritual issue. To me, such people are like some surgeons who didn’t believe in “bacteria” (because they couldn’t see them) and caused harm to many patients because they wouldn’t heed the new warnings to sterilize their hands and instruments.
In all of this, the worst thing is that mental illness and depression is often suffered in silence and alone, going unshared and undiagnosed, when help is available. As Rick shared above and I shared earlier, there is no way to attribute suicide to one thing, and it is devastating to everyone who new and loved the person.
Brokenhearted –
So sorry that you couldn’t find help or someone to hear you. I’m glad to know that you ended up somewhere you could, and did, get help. Honestly, we all need to be better listeners and not brush people off when they might say something that makes us uncomfortable. We may not have the answer or the cure, but we can all listen and help point someone to where they can find help. If someone shared thoughts of harm to self or others with me I would immediately, in person if possible, suggest they see a doctor, go with them if they desire, pray with them and for them, and follow up with them often. It is not normal to express these things and it is nothing to put on the back burner.
What a sad, sorry state the church is in. Where is any discernment, human kindness, and plain old common sense?
Luke 16:8 – “[…] for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.”
Our church has left SGM. However, before we left, we had been a church very much influenced by CJ. One of the most damaging influences was the authoritative stance
taken against therapy and medications. I was known to be a very joyful person. After
over twenty years, I suddenly began to experience anxiety to the point I couldn’t sleep enough to function properly. A friend called me every day knowing I was suicidal. I
went to see my pastor six times during a six week period innwhich Imcouldn’t sleep more than three hours. I told him each time that I didn’t want to live anymore. Finally,
I concluded it would be best for everyone if I was dead. After over dosing on sleeping pills, someone happened to notice a car not usually seen on their street for the entire day – they called fhe police. I was very fortunate to live.
When I had been there for eight days – I explained the sleeping pills they were giving me weren’t working either. The “doctor” said, “I’ll prescribe the strongest thing we have.”
I went home that day, took the pill and slept 7 hours. It wasn’t a sleeping pill – it was an anti-anxiety pill. The guy prescribing didn’t even understand what he was treating. No
doubt my pastor understood the sleep deprivation was due to anxiety. Obviously, he had been trained against medications. I don’t fault him. My only question is that CJ was on the board of CCEF. I know David Welch understands there are situations that require medication but he would also advice counseling. CJ learned much from these men – I’m wondering why he didn’t learn this from CCEF?
Our church now recognizes this and if I had had that experience now, I believe I would be sent to a counselor who would identify my anxiety as the source of my depression and treat it accordingly – I have to conclude the God Himself rescued me.
Would genuine humility have asked and learned more from people at CCEF – especially being a board member? I wonder why CJ’s relationship with them waned. I don’t blame my church or my pastor. What I applaud is the willingness to learn from facts. I believe this is just one area in which our community has grown and changed. I believe our community is trying to identify and undue things that are so typical of SGM – an association of churches which have experienced the consequences of one man rule.
To this day I have not seen anything said or written by CJ that would indicate any responsibility in using his prophetic gift to convince so many people that seeking pro-
sessional counseling and medications would not be beneficial. It has caused much damage, and yet, once again, there never seems to be ownership on his part of anything that has gone wrong with SGM – hurting many. It is one of the most
perplexing things I’ve encountered in my life.
BokenHearted,
I am so sorry to read your words in #156. I think the rejection that is experienced in what you described is so painful. I have lived it and felt it many times…especially in my SG church. Of all the things that the Church is called to be is….loving. It is supposed to be the quality that differentiates us from the world. I have often found the world to be more loving, kinder and more caring than the Church. I am so happy for you that you found a church that has been used by God to heal and love you. I have found one since leaving my SG church, too. It is a blessing and not easily found today. What a great ending to such a truly sad story. I feel sick too when I think about what you described…because it is sick that no one returned your email.
Broken Hearted and My Experience, I’m so glad you have good situations now! It’s a sorry state of affairs when someone sincerely reaches out for help from other believers and doesn’t get it.
“My Experience” said,
This honestly is one of the main reasons I continue to be interested in discussing SGM and its problems. While there have obviously been many changes and improvements over the past 3 or 4 years, I do not believe there’s ever been any real express, detailed, public teachings acknowledging the old teachings, admitting where they missed the boat, and then “unteaching” the old teachings by establishing what a better way would be.
This holds true for so many of SGM’s cultural oddities – the push to homeschool, the condemnation of dating and the smug, self-righteous embrace of a rigid courtship system, corporal punishment as the “only truly biblical” approach to child discipline, the idea that members need to seek pastoral input for major personal decisions, the idea that pastors “stand in the very stead of God” and can’t actually make any real mistakes when they are operating in their pastoral position, and this big one, the anti-counseling, anti-therapeutic, anti-medication, anti-mental health teaching.
Yes, once they were called out on these things, or had the abuses pointed out to them, they would claim they didn’t actually teach them. Or something like that. Occasionally there’s been the acknowledgement of mistakes…but with the push to put the responsibility back on the hearer of the teachings rather than the teachers themselves, by trying to blame the hearer for “misapplying” things that the teachers had never meant to be taken so legalistically.
There’s been the occasional spot of seemingly truly heartfelt apologies. But even then, there’s been little in the way of express unteaching of the old mistaken ideas. If a pastor has really and truly ditched the belief that – for instance – all mental health problems are automatically sin issues and that it is their role to weigh in on medication decisions and try to steer members away from psychiatric prescription drugs, then he needs to acknowledge that yes, indeed, he used to think that…but that his thinking has now changed, and here’s why.
My deep suspicion is that we don’t see very much of this kind of explicit acknowledgement of misguided teachings, or explanations for changed thinking, because a lot of these pastors aren’t even really sure why they supposedly changed their thinking. They are merely doing what they’re told to do – which they are being told because the organization has become embarrassed by the old practices.
There’s a lot of lip service being paid to the idea that things have changed…but precious little in the way of explanations for why the old ways were wrong and what the pastors now think and why they now think what they think.
Totally off-topic…but really is truth and encouragement ever off-topic? :)
This is my absolute favorite rendition of “Pilgrim’s Progress”. My son reminded me of it today and how we used to watch when our kids were young. If you need boldness and encouragement for persevering in your faith in the midst of trials, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_c22M_Z9jc
(Also, all the wonderful character voices are by the same actor, if I remember correctly)
Kris,
In observing how u respond to people like me that seem bent on reporting good news from the home front of their “once SGM church” (don’t be shocked! ) I enjoy the fact that u aren’t too quick to “celebrate the glorious reformation” of these churches. This
is good for me and others. If we’re honest with ourselves, we’d admit we often interpret
the same data to fit what we would want to believe about reality. Why wouldn’t I be more tempted to interpret “good signs” with more significance then u would? I’ve been here a long time, have precious history with friends, see sincerity and heart change in
some pastors, and feel I have an avenue to communicate.
Because it was so bad in my experience, my inclination is too be too excited by
changes for the good – I can be naive. I have to be careful of the “believe the best”
at the slightest sign of change in the right direction which is part of SGM’s DNA. DNA –
is hard to detect. John the Baptist (a prophet) was after the root of the tree – he wouldn’t
settle for “the appearance of change.” U can lose ur head (even when u’re the one that actually has ur head) when u insist on getting at the root of problems because u know if u don’t, like thistle weeds, they come back again.
For this reason, I am absolutely unapologetic about participating in this blog. I may get corrected for certain things by people close to me who do love me, and I love them for doing that for me. On the other hand, despite seeing good things ( things being seriously worked on that I am privy to), there are a number of apparent inconsistencies
which I’ve questioned openly here. I don’t always do it in the wisest way. This is where I appreciate friends who, though they believe what I’m saying is true, they explain to me how to shoot straight without unnecessarily betraying trust – and will even tell me it makes them afraid to share things w me that might end up in the public domain when it was private. I’ve made this mistake.These are friends I trust – they tell me the truth – out of love – not hurt – to help me. They will speak this truth so it truly penetrates and helps purge me. It helps me not sacrifice righteousness “for truth” – both are essential (the ends don’t justify the means.)
On the other hand, one issue that concerns me (among others), is captured perfectly in your last paragraph. I think it’s worth quoting:
“There’s a lot of lip service being paid to the idea that things have changed (here I would simply say that I don’t believe it’s mere lip service)…..BUT PRECIOUS LITTLE IN THE WAY OF EXPLANATIONS OF HOW AND WHY THE OLD WAYS WERE WRONG, WHAT WE ARE REPUDIATING AND ATTEMPTING TO ERADICATE, WHY BASED ON SCRIPTURE, AND HOW” (a very loose quotation! – forgive!)
You’re perhaps more objective than I am (I need that – just as I need adjustment from my friends). As I recently read an article by Charles Simpson (much respect), he spoke about the terrible breakdown of TRUST in every area of life (on his website). He writes that TRUST is the true currency is society. He said, “Seek to trust, but verify.” This is
the opposite of blind, SGM, trust. What we tend to call the Big Dogs around CJ (I don’t like that term – they are people), need to be humbled by Simpson’s article : they’ve chosen to trust without any verification : a total lack of wisdom and obvious signs of false loyalty and partiality.
SGMS helps me not to assign so much good to real changes that I ignore other things that don’t settle right with me so I’ll at least ask the questions that need to be asked (if only for me.) There should come a point where we as a people aren’t always asking, “What Is The Truth?” but those who know the truth, are telling us, no matter how politically incorrect, how inconvenient, and how painful he truth may be. The church must not make decisions about what it communicates in the way of truth based on popularity or acceptance by “big time” ministries. The local church must be willing to please Jesus no matter what rejection it may experience from powerful, wealthy, and entrenched religious power groups – such as (you fill in the blank).
We say, “Jesus plus nothing equals everything.” Nice words. Do we believe them? To want real truth without forfitting godliness and compassion, is what I think would please Jesus. Our very disdain for the lack of integrity we see, can unwittingly lead us into compromise which it has me more than it ever should i how I speak or failing to use words seasoned with grace. “The kindness of God leads us to repentance” ; but sometimes real kindness is truth we need to hear which our pride our stubbornness doesn’t want to hear. “Behold both the kindness and severity of God.” SGM is falling faster than we imagined – but His heart is kind.
Unfortunately, not all suicidal church members suffer from mental illness. I think we have seen here again and again that spiritual abuse in and of itself has tempted people towards suicide. When those in spiritual authority over you also condemn your soul and blame you for pride if you object, there is no way out. Suicide is the natural consequence.
As for those who are mentally ill, there are so many people who have clearly never been treated or diagnosed as suffering from mental illness. Their lives are full of turmoil and conflict that could have been prevented. How many men with reoccurring episodes of rage could have had happy families with well adjusted children if they had been properly treated?
If C.J. changed his views regarding psychobabble, he was definitely too proud to admit it to those who sat under his teaching for decades. Still today, members enforce this false teaching on one another, condemning those who seek psychiatric care.
Regarding Charles Simpson mentioned by someone (Paul K?) in an earlier post, he was one of the infamous Fort Lauderdale Five who spearheaded the shepherding movement that captivated Mahaney, Tomczak, etc., in the founding of what is now SGM.
I have read that, after the group disbanded, Simpson is the only one of the five not to publicly renounce the error and harm of the shepherding movement.
He apparently still believes in the ideas of the shepherding movement and his only disclaimer is against those who applied it incorrectly and excessively. (Sound familiar?)
The Fort Lauderdale Five and their New Wine magazine disbanded around 1984. But Simpson maintained ties with Mahaney and SGM, speaking at Celebrations into the 1990s.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/02/18/did-charles-simpson%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Ccovenant-theology%E2%80%9D-influence-sovereign-grace-ministries/
“What Is The Truth?” == Paul K? .. no way! :)
This is the first time I have written on this site, although I have been reading here occasionally for a few years. I am currently a part of Covenant Fellowship Church and want to point out that while there is definitely more change that needs to happen, I want to encourage those on this blog to hear about some recent experiences I have had. I am writing in response to Kris’s last post about how the churches are not acknowledging that they actually had made mistakes.
Well, for the last 4 weeks at Covenant Fellowship, they took time to do a series called “Life in a Changing Church.” The series was none other than a chance for them to go through many of the major themes that have affected people over the years and talk about how they DID make mistakes and how they are NOW moving forward with changing the way they teach. They confessed that they have emphasized practice over principle too much, being too sin focused, pushing homeschooling too much, having too much of a strict formula approach on parenting, and pushing a “one way to court” model too much. What was yesterday’s topic? Andy Farmer apologizing for the way the counseling they did ignored medical models, etc. He emphasized that they are now very open to accepting that some people do need medication and that mental health issues are real. I need to add that over the past few years I have noticed them talk about these issues differently than the years before that, but they did said that they have done a poor job of communicating changes in doctrinal understanding and practices and want to make sure they don’t make that mistake moving forward. So they made sure to have a sermon series to do just that!! I will also add that I have had some lengthy conversations with a few pastors and they are COMPLETELY open-no defensiveness AT ALL. They even ask do you have anything else you want to say before you leave?? Yes, there is more that needs to change, but this is progress!! I feel like we need to all continue to remember that it is the Lord that makes change which means anything can happen! Nothing is too big for Him to do and I hope we are able to notice the positive changes while continuing to challenge what still needs change!
What is the Truth: welcome. We were all where you are at some point. I think one interesting point about being in transition, as you are, is that how excited we get at the prospect of possible change in the tiniest little things from these guys. I know we should encourage and not despise the days of small beginnings, but the fact that we get so excited reveals a lot abut all of us. It reveals just how unhealthy the culture has been. It reveals just how dependent we all were on the culture. It reveals the fact that for so long there has been zero change. What’s worse is when the promise or hope of change doesn’t happen. Welcome aboard. I think most of us are still trying to get our heads in the right place as we detox.
Anybody know if Josh asked CLC members to not share what was said at the recent Family Meeting. I heard it was 2 hours long but, we have heard little of its content.
Persona-
I don’t think that what we talked about there was newsworthy for this site. Budget constraints, the North Africa team, a brief talk about the lawsuit but not able to say much. I was looking for my notes but do not know where they are.
Blogging is quite an art compared to sitting down face to face, isn’t it – when u consider that perhaps sixty percent of our communication isn’t the actual words we say? Jenn,
thanks for the welcome – but I must apologize for not being better at getting my points across more clearly. The main thing I wanted to say is that I believe there isn’t just a little to be encouraged about in out transition, which in itself can be dangerous because you can focus on say 60 – 70% that truly seems to be being addressed and go to sleep
before having done due diligence in paying attention to SGM DNA cropping up here and there without facing it because, “Well, we’ve changed this much, we’ll get to that patriarchal comment some other day – be patient.” “A little leaven leavens the whole lump” (is that a fitting place for that scripture? – didn’t go to seminary.)
As far as SGM goes, I’m not asking them that question anymore. They remind me of someone who has told so many lies, they’re not sure what lie to tell next because it might contradict a previous lie. They have to keep bringing in new liars to keep the previous ones from going insane. BTW – “It’s just the beginning” – that name might be outdated. Some guy put ‘a poem’ out there called “Did God Really Say ‘LOUISVILLE?'”
When GR is telling CJ, that he’s actually going to ask JC (if he can still hear Him) what
He wants Him to do, I think it’s safe to say that we can hear the tsunami in the distance and it’s frightening. I think we’re more than half way or very close anyway.
SGM reminds me more of Pilate saying to Jesus, “What is truth.” Pilate didn’t believe
in truth anymore ; even the Greeks didn’t believe in truth. They had become sophists :
there is no truth, therefore what matters is public speaking : the art of persuading others. Our slang word for sophistry is spin – when u spin too much you lose your
mind. My grandfather understood this : I liked to read and write a lot – to him that was a waste of time. He would tell me, “You spin” which was his way of saying, “You are about to lose your mind.” I guess he thought his mind healthier than mine : every night he’d say the same thing, “Thank God, another day has passed.” We laughed.
I know Paul K got slammed with a smile (he doesn’t mind) for mentioning Charles Simpson. Guess what? – that helped him read up on Simpson – went to Wartburg blog as well as Simpson’s website. Didn’t realize Simpson was involved with these New Covenant churches that fell apart under Bob Wright’s leadership. He knew some of those churches – especially in Laurel.
From Simpson : “A ‘con-man’ is someone who knows how to use your “self-interest” to
serve his own ‘self-interest’ by giving you a false promise. A ‘con-man’ is a ‘confidence-man’ who gives you confidence for ulterior motives and uses guile to better himself at your expense. The naive are his market (Pro 1). Reagan said, ‘Trust, but verify.’ We should be informed : read, listen, inquire, ask trustworthy friends, check track records, and history.” I read a great book by Simpson called THE CHALLENGE TO CARE ;
I’ve heard great sermons – in the distance past by CJ. Now I must verify if knowing about Simpson is real important to me – it’s not.
But see, he’s using Simpson to further dissect SGM – all because someone gave him a playful tease. In like manner, I’m not embarrassed to be here even though I have trust
that what’s happening in our community isn’t spin, but coming here helps me verify.
The day must come eventually (the fullness of time) when “a reforming church” (reforming from SGM) must be explicit what the nature of the reformation is. Didn’t Luther post 95 clear points of demarcation between the Word of God and the Holy Catholic church and all it’s corruptions. How did he stop at 95? Charitable judgements I suppose.
What is Truth said “They have to keep bringing in new liars to keep the previous ones from going insane.”
Oh my….I don’t know whether to laugh or cry but this seems so true!
What is the truth, I think he ran out of paper. :)
Another thumbs-up for what Kris said in #164:
Sorry… I responded to Kris’s quote but somehow my blockquote HTML thingie didn’t work. (Is there help somewhere for us non-geek people? There used to be a page on this site for tech help. :-))
Let me try that post again, but without the blockquote code:
Another thumbs-up for what Kris said in #164:
“There’s been the occasional spot of seemingly truly heartfelt apologies. But even then, there’s been little in the way of express unteaching of the old mistaken ideas. If a pastor has really and truly ditched the belief that — for instance — all mental health problems are automatically sin issues and that it is their role to weigh in on medication decisions and try to steer members away from psychiatric prescription drugs, then he needs to acknowledge that yes, indeed, he used to think that…but that his thinking has now changed, and here’s why.
My deep suspicion is that we don’t see very much of this kind of explicit acknowledgement of misguided teachings, or explanations for changed thinking, because a lot of these pastors aren’t even really sure why they supposedly changed their thinking. They are merely doing what they’re told to do — which they are being told because the organization has become embarrassed by the old practices.” [end of quote]
There has been quite a bit of discussion in my (former SGM) church about the need for church leaders to acknowledge and publicly identify past, dysfunctional teachings, and not just quietly “move on” the way most of the pastors (and some of the unengaged members) seem to prefer.
Nearly all of our long-time members understand why public acknowledgement and public renunciation of bad ideology is critical for healing and restoration. Many members have tried to make this case to our pastors, but their pleas seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Perhaps this is because new members continue to join the church, and (from an attractional church perspective at least) that makes it seem as if all is well. Or at least, that we are not too badly off.
Anybody know where Crossway church in Lancaster ,Pa stands on the issues ,any loss of members to fund their new building(very overboard may I say).
have faith @170 — I too am a member of CovFel. Thank you for speaking about the 4 part series just concluded at CovFel. It is encouraging to hear the things that were addressed in the series. Many are probably skeptical and wonder how anything good can happen in a church where Mark Prater is on the pastoral team AND is Exec Director of SGM, and where Dave Harvey was quite an influence for many years. My cynical self is taking a wait-and-see stance. I so want to believe that CovFel will be alright. I’m encouraged as my focus is on The One Who is Able. Much prayer has gone before this time and will continue by those who won’t let CovFel go.
I can’t imagine being married to one of them if they act like this at home. My husband is trustworthy and reliable, and when we have conflicts we go back later and try to work it out at the root. We don’t pretend we never said or did the things we said or did. We love each other and feel close to each other. I can’t imagine being married to this sort of thing. Ugh.
Great article by Carl Trueman. I wonder if he has regrets taking part in the 3 man outside committee ruling that stated CJ Mahaney had done nothing to disqualify him from ministry?
http://www.reformation21.org/articles/what-if-life-was-complex.php
Oswald #180 & Have Faith #170 –
It’s been quite a while since my family left CLC. However, shortly before our departure Josh Harris confessed on behalf of the pastors at least four of the points Have Faith mentioned from the CovFel sermon series.
Josh confessed that the pastors had emphasized practice over principle, being too sin focused, over emphasizing homeschooling , and having too stringent formula approach to parenting. Someone else may recall better than me. I don’t remember if he mentioned in that meeting about courtship.
Perhaps I am too cynical, but we’ve spoken about SGM sharing sermons here in the past. Are the Pastors at CovFel learning from their mistakes and truly repenting or are they using Josh’s confession to gain favor from the congregation?
What is truth-
I’m glad to hear that Covenant Fellowship is finally beginning to admit mistakes.
But here’s the rub….I attended Covenant in the 90’s. So for over 20 years, someone like Andy Farmer has been counseling people to avoid Psychiatric help and anti-depressants and instead, telling people that their mental health issues were rooted in sin. For over 20 years, he has possibly added misery instead of comfort to those who trusted his counsel as a pastor.
Does a vague apology, that they are now open to medication and a Dr’s help really cut it? Has he sought out those who he may have counseled in error?
Let me put it another way…what if your local Pediatrician had been ignoring treating infections in children, because he didn’t believe that antibiotics were effective. Despite the overwhelming evidence that antibiotics are sometimes the only way to treat certain illnesses, he persisted in his lack of treatment.
Say he did this for over 20 years and some children died, others had life long health issues from the complications of an untreated illness, while a few were able to recover.
When he finally comes to his senses and admits that he is now open to treating children with antibiotics when deemed medically necessary, do you still want to take your children to this Doctor? Is him simply admitting his mistake enough for all those he may have harmed?
Todd Wilhelm –
Carl Trueman exhibiting a bit of tongue-n-cheek!?
My dear brothers and sisters in Philadelphia, There is a great deal more to be concerned about than just the general concerns about the leadership style and heavy-handedness by the Philadelphia leaders.
I strongly encourage you to read the entirety of Brent’s last post: http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2013/4/28/mark-prater-is-the-best-choice-to-restore-trust-and-unity.html
If Brent’s remarks re: cover-up and mistreatment contain any truth and if the CovFel leaders were truly changing, such behavior would be confessed and repented of, and resignations would follow, in the fear of the Lord.
You can’t just ask these guys general questions about these issues, you have to be specific. Ask them what happened to the former pastors,ask the pastors who remain how no one knew about the issues that existed in Dave’s family and if they did know why no one helped him. After all, these leaders all promised us for years that the plurality of elders provided just this type of care. Was it a cover up by pastors or was it just hidden from the rest of the church.
If men like Jim Donahue, Andy Farmer, Jared Mellinger, and the the other pastors there knew of what was happening and did nothing what shall we think? If they did not know, what shall we think? If they did know and acted wrongfully, what shall we think?
These guys owe you real answers to tough questions. They feel like they owe you nothing. They feel like you owe them.
Fruit Flavored @183, Musicman @184 — While I agree with you both, I want to think that at least it’s a start. We’ll see if it is fleshed-out in real time/life. It seems to be what we have been crying out for here. Even if no one is apologized to or contacted, still a change has to begin and continue. The leaders at CovFel seem sincere.
As I mentioned earlier, I am very cynical and suspicious, but trusting God Who is Able.
The whole of SGM seems to be obsessed with sin. This emphasis on rooting out sin, and “all our problems are because of sin” seems very cultish and controlling to me. Obviously the leadership will help us with our sin; hence, the control. Jesus took care of sin for us by “becoming sin” for us. I think we all need to major on love and compassion, first compassion for ourselves, and then compassion for others. When we finally learn to love ourselves just as we are, the way God loves us, then we become able to love others with the same love. Forget sin, chase after love.
The psycho blinding is hand-in-hand with authority-amok, vis-a-vis heirarchicalism, vis-a-vis monetization. Also, retracting psycho-blinding, as though such retraction settled things, rings of CYA by fiat and is hand-in-hand with authority-amok, vis-a-vis heirarchicalism, vis-a-vis monetization. It, without more, spits in the face of moral excellence. I would be sickened to learn that they have thusly colored the pursuit of peace and, by that example, taught the same.
Jenn @186 —
At CovFel, we were told of Dave’s family problems at a members meeting (not specifics). We were updated about this when Dave stepped down from SGM and again when he decided to leave/or was dismissed from CovFel because of his disagreement with the elders ‘care for him’. Is there more we should know concerning CovFel and Dave Harvey? How can one be sure of another’s sincerity? How does one know when another is outright lying?
Yes, I read Brent’s last post which is linked above. As someone else observed, Brent is mostly about Brent.
I recommended to someone at CovFel to read Brent’s docs. They came back to say they learned a lot about SGM/CJM ways but came away with the feeling that Brent was hell-bent on taking down CJ however he could. This ruins Brent’s credibility and makes him look foolish.
Oswald, I’m not sure that it’s Brent that is bent on taking down CJ. I believe that there is a discipline going on with those who have been the spiritual leaders of SGM. They have hardened their hearts though and have not repented. They look to make all like new, casting a vision, promoting change, promoting man change. But man change without repentance leads to dust. God is allowing the discipline to continue. Some might come to a heart change and repent, but as an organization, SGM days are numbered. We must go beyond our worship of a ministry and find our vision in Jesus only. A passion for Him alone will promote heart change and repentance. The focus on sin and works of man just wears ya down.
Diego @191 — I agree that SGM days are numbered as God’s discipline, and that we must trust in Jesus only. I just observe that Brent’s ways don’t help much, but are an indication of hurt and bitterness toward him.
Oswald, Amen and praise God He can use us sinners for His glory. :)
Virginia- I love what you said!
Oswald, it really isn’t about Dave or Brent. It is about the conduct of the pastors who were on staff during the years the allegations took place.
Brent’s questions, do however, shed some light into the reality, that there is a lot more to this story. I have deleted the questions that primarily addressed Dave. gain, it isn’t about Dave, Dave’s family, or Brent. It is about the integrity of the CFC pastors. If there was no wrongdoing – Praise the Lord!If there was behavior along the lines of the questions below, let there be repentance, reconciliation, and then celebration of God’s goodness.
In the last two weeks, did well respected men in Covenant Fellowship Church, who know Dave well, ask him to step down and make a public confession? (this was in March 2012)
Did these men tell Dave they would leave the church and expose him publicly if he did not comply?
Have these men been silenced by Dave, Jared and the other pastors? Have they been coerced?
Did Dave write a rough draft confession for this past Sunday night but decide not to go through with it at the last minute?
Are people afraid to speak up regarding Dave’s hypocrisy for fear of being shunned or disciplined?
Are people covering up for the Harvey’s?
Were former pastors at CFC removed from staff in the past when they tried to help Dave in his delinquent role as a father?
Have Dave’s sins been covered up by the pastors around him (i.e., Mark Prater, Andy Farmer, Jim Donahue)?
Why did 70 people including close friends of Dave leave CFC in 2007?
Were their charges of manipulation, intimidation, and authoritarianism ever investigated by C.J. and the Board as requested by Brent?
The Wartburg Watch has this posted:
I have no idea where they obtained this information from but is interesting. As others have said, this suit could end up being quite costly for SGM and specific churches mentioned in the suit not to mention Mahaney and others.
Stunned – it was kind of u to help the guy out that was trying to get the truth about some letters that weren’t responded to year after year for twenty years – he appreciated u caring about truth enough to help him. I think he put u in some poem before he ever knew u’d be nice to him. He mentioned to me that he wonders if “Stunned” is a name that still suits u. When people start cracking other people up w statements like : “He ran out of paper” they seem to have regained their equilibrium – humor can be a sign of real breakthrough in healing. He asked me to pass that on to u as another way of saying “thanks” – it was more helpful to him than u know. He’s a friend of mine – too busy to frequent here so I fill him in occasionally on things that might be of interest to him – u sure cracked him up and made his day w that one (Luther ran out of paper – expensive in those days.)
I told him, “Maybe we’re just getting used to being Stunned. Police officers deal w
people in dire situations like their just getting a hair cut – give the cops a break – they can’t cry everyday, day after day, when they probably have things to cry about at
home. Maybe Stunned is a good name to remind us that these day after day
revelations which no longer surprise us are still serious even though a sense of appropriate humor is important to take it all in, especially since we all know the end of the story. When Frodo was caught in the web of that spider, we still enjoy our popcorn cause we know he makes it back to the Shire. How could we face all this if we didn’t know the end of the story?! (If anyone’s looking for an edifying book – a book on heaven that is relevant for life in this fallen world : FOREVER, by Paul Tripp, goes well w what I
consider his most helpful books : LOST IN THE MIDDLE and BROKEN DOWN HOUSE
which are both books about the same thing…..in essence, “Don’t be surprised that
ur dreams and theories about how u thought ur life would go are destroyed by a bunch of ugly facts. Remember where u live : it’s a fallen world. The Bible instructs us about how to live productively in a fallen world and part of that instruction is fixing our hope on FOREVER.” In fact he says we can’t hold up as well as we ought without FOREVER in view. Not that we needed him to tell us that : “Don’t let ur heart be troubled. Believe in God and also in Me. I go to prepare a place for u (I was a Carpenter for a reason.) I
wouldn’t tell u this if it wasn’t true. In fact, I build mansions – don’t be jealous of those whose riches are in this life.”
I take back my recommendation : if we read Jesus more closely, we might not weary ourselves w reading too many books as Solomon finally found out. Jesus says in a paragraph what others (especially Puritans) write exhausting books on w the result that u can’t remember what u read and have no need to remember it since u have no energy left to do it and would therefore sink into depression and would have to read another book by them ON REMEDIES FOR SATAN’S DEVICES (or some such title
such as THE SINFULNESS OF SIN). When my friend told the dude that initially discipled him that we were reading the Puritans, he was STUNNED. “Son, they were a hard bunch. They saw witches instead of flowers. They probably created the environment for authors like Nathaniel Hawthorne (THE SCARLET LETTER). They paved the way for a romantic idealism and return to nature to come forth (who can live without birdsand flowers?) led by the ideas of the man whose prose, poems, and lectures throughout America have been the predominate influence in the formation of America’s Weltanshaung (world -view), namely, Ralph Waldo Emerson (not sure why he kept the “Waldo”), who became a Unitarian, a Transcendentalist, a proponent of Self-Reliance (guess he didn’t like, “have no confidence in the flesh”), and decided nature was God’s handwriting rather than the Bible. Almost all famous American writers trace their roots back to him – most notably Walt Whitman (so honored and so detrimental to all morality) and even a man I love, Robert Frost, who finally, it appears, at the very end of his life, after being utterly skeptical, almost at war with God, wrote, “Jesus
seems to have both defined the problem of human existence and answered it with Himself.” How happy I was to read that!
And Musicman – funny u showed up in my friend’s poem and in his farewell note. He’s
never visited Cov Fel even though Marty lived w his family for a year (he liked Marty a lot and also likes Marty’s sister who leads a Care Group w her husband in the community he is a part of), knew Allen R and liked him a lot, and was pretty close to
Bill P back in the day (abusing him on the basketball court – BP didn’t mind.)
And Virginia – my goodness – so much truth in one paragraph (pray for me!) Isn’t the first thing John the Baptist who came as a forerunner to Jesus to prepare the way for Him and introduce Him to world (John as a type of Elijah – who would argue w that dude?) said about Jesus, “Behold – the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” Why be obsessed with what’s been taken away rather than being absorbed in the One who took it away? I got sick of some guy telling me there was something wrong with me if I didn’t cry about my sin every Sunday – not specific sin – just this general sin that was hiding somewhere deep in the recesses of my heart that I couldn’t even confess because I was unaware of it – and I couldn’t take a leave of absence to
discover it. Then, the same guy wanting me to cry over sin I wasn’t aware of, didn’t
even cry over sin he was forced to be made aware of through 1200 pages of e-mails…Weird…….
Then ironiy of ironies : “The leadership (who can’t detect their own sin since the Holy
Spirit whose job is to convict of sin is apparently inept at His job – He’s only God) will
help us to detect our sin” (insulting the Holy Spirit again! Didn’t Jesus say, “Sin against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but sin against the Holy Spirit won’t?”)
“Major on love and compassion – are u serious?” – might be SGM’s response to that statement! Didn’t Jesus say (why do I keep coming back to the same guy?!) “go and
learn what this means : I DESIRE COMPASSION AND NOT SACRIFICE.”…..And, “He who has been forgiven much loves much.” Didn’t the same guy say, “All the Law and the Prophets are summed up in one commandment : ‘Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as urself’?” Didn’t the disciple who loved Jesus say, “God is love”?
“Jesus took care of sin by ‘becoming sin’ for us” – Virginia – YES!!!! – ICOR 5:21 is a shocking verse – how can such a thing be true? “He who knew no sin, became sin,
that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” That’s just as incomprehensible as “our sins are as far as the east is from the west” – I can’t comprehend either one ! Gees, u just started e-church right here for crying out loud!
Virginia, wasn’t it frowned upon to love yourself – and yet the same GUY (show some respect!) said, “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” How can u love yourself if ur obsessed with your sins -u’ll despise urself! U’ll insult the One Who gave His Blood to
take away ur sins – u’ll not believe His blood is more than a sufficient price to appease all God’s wrath against ur sin – u’ll be in the sin of unbelief – not good – so – yes – love yourself as a human whom God loves – love what He loves.
“Where have all the flowers gone?” They’re all here – but if all u see is sin, u won’t
see flowers. Didn’t that same GUY (I’m a broken record!) say, “Look at the flowers –
decked out more magnificently than Solomon” and didn’t He say, “Look at the birds”? For crying out loud ! He does away with sin and says “Look at birds and flowers – I made them…someone else made sin, and yes, it was a problem, but I’ve taken care of that problem – stop taking leaves of absence from life to find what I’ve hidden within Myself for you!”
Sorry Virginia – I just made a darn commentary on ur beautiful post – get carried away by good news sometimes. Please – forgive !
Jenn @195 — I’m very curious…how could well respected men of CovFel be silenced, or coerced? What could they possibly be threatened with, that would make them keep silent? Maybe all this about men confronting Dave is true, but I can’t see any of them being made to back down, nor can I see anyone confronting Dave any way except in private. Maybe some of these ‘well respected’ are a part of the pastoral team, or the prophecy team, or a long-time CGL.
Steve240,
How could a case be going either way if depositions haven’t even been made yet?
Oswald, after what we learned about what happened to Larry T., how can you be so confident?