Free Discussion
September 19, 2014 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Guy tells me that the previous post was simply overloaded with comments, so let’s start a new one.
Feel free to post anything related to Sovereign Grace Ministries…or, tell us a bit about your SGM experience. What attracted you to SGM? How long were you part of SGM? Are you still part of SGM, or did you leave? If so, what made you decide to leave?
Or, if you were never part of SGM but are now interested in this discussion, what is it that you find interesting?
© 2014 – 2015, Kris. All rights reserved.
I was never part of a sgm church. But i was part of a group that eventually became antioch church in waco, tx. Which has had it’s small controversies. Most folks know about this group because 2 of their members were held hostage by the taliban in 2011 but were released. If my memory serves me correctly the founder Jimmy Seibert thought about going to an early version of the pastors college back in the late 80s but was told he would be only stacking chairs so decided not to go. Craig Cabannis was also a part of this group in the 80s as well. I have always liked the music from SGM and have been wondering how Steve and Vicki Cook never came up in the conversations about bad leadership.
Wonderfully accepting unconditionally loving relationships attracted me to SGM.
Was part of SGM for at least 10 years. Went to 3 different churches.
Decided to leave when I realized that the relationships at the current church, CFC, had been horribly conditional and phony.
I try to check in here once a while to make sure I don’t fall into same traps.
A genuine thank you to Kris and Guy for keeping this blog open for so long. It has provided me with important connections to help me not be so vulnerable to evil actions of self-centered egotists again.
Hi. I’ve never been in SGM, but because of my history of childhood and adult sexual, physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual abuses, I have been researching and reading many blogs and websites for years, to learn and know that I’m not alone. So that IS can begin to heal. If anyone’s interested, my story is at this link.
http://waitingforthetrumpet2.wordpress.com/
Patrick
When you were part of AMI? Our sgm college ministry went to a couple of world mandate conferences in the late 1990!s and I thought jimmy siebert was a good guy but a few years ago I came across an AMI blog like this one and I was very surprised at the stories of authoritarianism.
Out of curiosity, was RGIII ever a part of AMI? I used to be a part of maranatha in college and maranatha always tried to recruit high profile athletes on campus and I am curious if AMI ever tried to do the same
You may have missed this and Brent’s post reminded me of it. Lou Gallo’s resignation announcement on July 6, 2014.
http://sovgracefairfax.publishpath.com/lou-gallos-announcement
Lou starts:
Lou ends at about 5:09, applause begins and then the mic is apparently muted. Another mic appears to open around 5:39 and it’s Mark’s turn.
Then begins the prayer time. Fifteen years of ministry wrapped up in less than eleven minutes.
So what was learned about the “why” behind the resignation?
Lou’s statement of, “… but now I find myself in a place where I need to receive care more than in a place to give care.” has been code for many years for “discipline” and “degifting”.
“It will be a time when I will be turning my attention to finding a new career…” seems to indicate that he’s no longer qualified in his present career.
So did he quit or was he let go?
If Lou was so great, as Mark seems to indicate, what was motivation for finding a new career?
Mark says, “For now, we’re processing this news ourselves…” Really? You didn’t know anything about this until recently? I thought relationships here were supposed to be on a really deep level here, especially among the pastors/elders.
There’s zero explanation here. Another one bites the dust. Impeding lawsuit, perhaps? Jettison the problem before it hits that fan so you can get some distance? Without real information, they only feed speculation.
You can take the church out of Sovereign Grace Churches, but it seems extremely hard to take Sovereign Grace Churches out of the former Sovereign Grace church.
Nice job, Fairfax.
patrick, too would like to know the backstory of why the Cooks changes horses (SGM churches) multiple times over the years and ended up back with CJ in Louisville. The full story has not emerged but, they were never in pastors leadership as far as I know.
So… The “Lord” gave Mark a verse for Lou in the bible to flee to another town? Lou is being persecuted ? Like the disciples? No wonder Former and current SGM verses are falling apart. None of them hear the Holy Spirit any longer.
“Then I told the other pastors of my decision, Mark told me that while he was praying for me that morning, he read Matthew 10. That chapter is about Jesus calling the twelve disciples and then His instructions for sending them out and verse 23 really spoke to me. Jesus says, “When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next.” I never really saw it that way before that it is an encouragement that change is not a sign of failure or is ungodly but on the contrary it is in keeping with the provision of the Chief Shepherd.”
This article was mentioned in a Bible study I attended today. “5 Things that KILL a Strong Leadership Finish” by Ed Stetzer. Interesting reading.
1. They did not trust the very people they developed for succession.
2. They fought over things which were just not that important.
3. Their identities were too connected to their movement.
4. They grew angrier as they grew older.
5. They could not hand over what they helped create.
http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-blogs/165293-5-reasons-some-leaders-finish-poorly.html?p=1
Perhaps should set sail with the S.D. Ligonier: “Ligonier Ministries to Offer a Winter Cruise in 2015: Theme is Enduring Persecution and Suffering Faithfully”
http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/09/20/ligonier-ministries-to-offer-a-winter-cruise-in-2015-theme-is-enduring-persecution-and-suffering-faithfully/
Last post: Perhaps Lousy should set sail.
Sorry, autocorrect is killing me. Lou should set sail
One post could not accurately answer Kris’s question about” why you left GOB/SGM/CLC” after 30 years except by God’s mercy to finally connect the dots of “inconsistencies” and through the writings of other believers.
About two years ago-my mind was drawn to Galatians 5:1 “Stand fast in the liberty where you have been made free and do not be entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” After consistently praying for this freedom
in Christ while simultaneously the scandals unfolded-the bondage became apparent. The words to describe this epiphany/eureka are best said by Charles Newbold in “His Presence in the Midst of You” as he describes
his understanding of the “deeds of the Nicolaitan’s” in Rev 2:5, 14-15. (Free e-book online)
“Nicolaitan’s means “conqueror of the people”. They are those who have separated and elevated themselves as clergy over the rest of those who profess to be Christ’s followers. They are those in ministry who rule
according to the flesh and not according to Holy Spirit. They are ambitious to advance themselves in power, position and riches. They oppress and use God’s people for their own advantage. They do not exist to
serve the people, but to bind the people into serving them. They exercise tyranny over God’s people in spirit, soul and body. This is an abomination to God.
By demanding false allegiance to themselves-(spiritual covering)-teaching a false doctrine of submission to their authority-they deceive God’s bond-servants. The deeds and the teachings of the Nicolaitans
are grossly deceptive because they do them in My name. People are led to believe that their sacrifices of service and contributions of money to these Nicolaitans are as unto Jesus. This is a lie and a deception.
It runs completely contradictory to God’s will, heart and word.
Those who practice these things are controlling, manipulative and possessive. They claim ownership over people. Anyone who dares to cross them are made to feel rebellious, shameful and defiled. They are abusive.
They violate the precious liberty Jesus has given to His bond-servants, for “where His Spirit is, there is liberty-2Cor 3:17).” (Please do respond with wrangling about some jot or tittle and miss the point in this
excerpt-the authors insight is noteworthy and if you don’t get it-don’t depreciate it.)
Out of Babylon — spot on!
I don’t think the Cooks’ life story is very relevant to surviving SGM, so I’ll summarize briefly and hope that will suffice. They went to FL to help their friend T. Twining develop worship teams in the SGM churches there. The subsequent moves (to MN then MD then KY) were practical career path moves to support the family financially as situations and opportunities changed.
Patrick-
Steve and Vicki Cook were never leaders. They are(IMHO) gifted song writers. I love their songs. Steve has worked for either the church(CLC) or SGM at times over the years. I think he still does work for SGM. Why they have not taken off the blinders and see what SGM for what it really is I don’t know.
Anyone run into the issue of your new church singing PDI songs? We get them every once in awhile. I struggle singing them. Especially bob Kauflin rearrangements of famous songs. They sung “at the cross” a few weeks back. With decades of cross-focused teaching (and not enough grace and victory in Christ encouragement), I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to sing them with the joy that I once had. Hopefully new great worship snugs come out to where the old SGM songs just go away.
Dave McKenzie, I understand that Todd Twining recently took the position of worship leader at St. Ignatius Catholic Church in Baltimore. That was a bit surprising to me.
Mark Mitchell just sent an email to Covenant Life members. The major points:
“the Maryland Court of Appeals has denied the recent petition filed by the plaintiffs in the civil suit against our church. The lawsuit is officially closed.
we’ll be making plans for an October Members Meeting where we will process the lawsuit and the results of the Independent Investigation with you.
let’s continue to remember and pray for those who have experienced the devastating impact of sexual abuse, both the victims and their families.”
Dave,
That would be quite disappointing. However, even if the Maryland courts dismiss the appeal, the Lord’s justice will still prevail. I’m also under the impression that there are still other lawsuits underway or about to be filed? Brent?
Somewhere: Brent’s post said the lawsuit would be in MD, which would not include CLC.
Somewhere: Brent’s post said the lawsuit would be in VA, which would not include CLC.
Formersgmer – i was never on staff with ami. And if my memory serves me correctly they never brought athletes in. What sgm church were you a part of?
@Somewhere in Time – I’m glad you brought that up. At my new church we sing a wide variety of songs, including gospel songs. But very occasionally we’ll sing SGM songs. You can always tell because of these characteristics: 1) They have lots and lots and lots of words 2) They go on and on about theology and 3) They talk about what worms we are and extol the cross exclusively
Recently we sang one, which was written by a somewhat newer member of CLC, and I had to literally sit down and couldn’t sing it at all. I don’t know that I’d have trouble with the hymn remakes, but that’s just me. It’s hard when there’s a trigger from your past.
I recently also had another trigger. My pastor told us he was going to talk about God’s power in his sermon, and he instead talked about the second year of our building fund. He also included other parts in that (e.g. memorizing scripture as a church, meeting to pray,etc.) We will have a weekend where we make our pledges in all areas, and needless to say, I will not be attending. I have no interest in attending another “rah rah” fest at church for the rest of my life. And don’t blindside me by talking about money when you say you’re talking about something else. CLC beat their building friends to the freakin ground. But at least they were honest that they were going to talk about. I may give you my money voluntarily, but don’t wrestle it out of me.
@Somewhereintime
Struggling with SGM songs? How could you? I listen to this beautiful song about the Holy Spirit by Bob Kauflin over and over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ayGCk2V_mY
What’s that you say – this song isn’t praising the Holy Spirit, but rather C.J. Mahaney? I guess I will have to rethink my love for SGM music! :)
Seriously though, I am right there with you “Somewhereintime.” I have real problems singing any SGM music. We utilized them quite often in the Mark Dever knock-off church I formerly attended in Dubai, but I have yet to encounter an SGM song in the Anglican church I now attend!
In a similar manner, my brother ruined the song “It is Well With My Soul” for me when he forwarded me this link:
http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/spafford.html#.VCO2z0uHkd8
Admittedly we are all sinners, therefore no songwriter will be perfect, but I don’t see the need to sing songs written by blatant heretics nor those who have played a part in conspiring to cover up the sexual abuse of children.
Yes … Triggers are a good word to describe how I go from feeling great to spinning down a dark hole when I hear SGM-like speech or SGM songs at church. My wife is helping me overcome these episodes.
I never liked Bob Kauflin. To me he always came off as smug and self important. I finally lost all respect for him when, attending a small group,leaders conference, he came up with a “prophetic” song about men wearing toupes. Then I started seeing the old great hymns rearranged with Kauflin putting his name on the song. You gotta be kidding me right? Nope.
He has always been a Mahaney Lackey. Always will be.
I am never encouraged when I hear SGM songs sung in our new church. It happens every once in awhile and I won’t sing them.
I find most of them dirges with heavy finger pointing at our guilt before God. I just don’t believe God looks at his sons and daughters and thinks of worms. As Believers, we reflect him, not one of his lowliest creations.
why are the comments backwards now? or is that just me…
Wow…triggers.
That nails it. I too have “triggers” – especially SGM music.
My family left CLC the summer that the documents hit. After visiting many churches we found one that we believed was going to be our new church home. The second week we attended, the worship team sang an SGM song. I walked out. I simply could not worship a God of love and truth with a song tied to an organization of control that covered up child sex abuse. I wrote to the worship pastor about royalties of the SGM songs going to SGM church leadership and filling the coffers of a church involved in a child sex abuse lawsuit. After receiving no response, I sent the same plea to the senior pastor who was well aware of SGM & CLC issues. Apparently I was not the only one who voiced concern and the worship leader was instructed to look for non-SGM material. And you know what? There were a lot of worship songs that were just as good – songs that pointed to freedoms in Christ as well as Christ’s sacrifice.
For the past couple of years the church has been SGM music free. Then a couple of weeks ago, I was very surprised to hear an SGM worship song. Again – the trigger. However, I didn’t walk out. I just sat down. As this new church grows and as new people become involved, not everyone knows the SGM story. I’m actually concerned that as time passes, the horrors of SGM and CLC will fade.
Now with the law suit closed, I’m wondering if the guidance to use music other than SGM will be lifted.
Of course there are other “triggers” as well – building fund, youth volunteers who invite kids to “unofficial” youth retreats, ballgames, etc. I’m still very hesitant to say yes to those in our new church organization who graciously invite my kids to functions.
It’s been three years!
As a former SGMer I have been as critical of SGM as many others, but I must say the recent bashing of SGM music here is like throwing out the proverbial baby with the bath water. I agree that Bob K. is a CJ lackey, but that does not d**n everything he has ever done. For those of us who lead worship or play on worship teams there has been much to learn and gain from his writings, the Worship God conferences, his on-site workshops, and of course his songwriting. There are also a number of other SGM affiliated songwriters (Altrogges, Cookes, others) whose songs have been blessings to many and who were no doubt positively influenced by BK. I mean no disrespect to those who just can’t stomach anything SGM but think that credit should be given where credit is due.
Stvmac,
Regarding Kauflin, I WILL throw the baby, the bathwater and the bathtub out all at one time.
Give me your opinion of the following person. A decorated World War Veteran. A dynamic and fervent anti-communist leader, an incredibly gifted orator, a leader that brought his country from economic dispair to one of the leading economies in the world and one of the most charasmatic men in the history of the world! Like him? That’s Adolf Hitler.
Kauflin isn’t Hitler, however the comparison proves that a horrible person can do wonderful things. Whereas Hitler could be considered one of the most charasmatic individuals in the 20th century and a great leader, he will go down and the most evil and vile person to have lived during that time as well.
To your defense of Kauflin … so he writes worship songs, has conferences and is looked upon as a leader in the worship music industry. That’s Great! However, he is also one of the most self-important men that I have ever met. More importantly, his loyalty to CJ Mahaney and SGM is well documented and clearly seen as a loyalty greater than the one he SHOULD have for Christ.
He has ACTIVELY participated in the coverup of Mahaney’s sinful acts and completely blocked Harvey and Detwiler from pursuing CJ for areas that were of grave concern (which ended up being true where we all now see the result of unaddressed sin).
Kauflin even challenged and blocked the Board of Directors multiple times when they tried to address Mahaney’s sins. Even in the correspondence between the Board of Directors (Brent’s documents clearly shows) all you see Kauflin doing is protecting Mahaney. No care whatsoever of the serious issues that Mahaney was doing.
Why was that? Because Mahaney was Kauflin’s meal ticket? Somehow I believe the answer to that is a resounding YES! Where is Bob today? Oh, that’s right, Louisville. Most likely stroking CJ’s ego each and every day.
So I am going to give credit where credit is due. Bob Kaulfin is a man whose ACTIONS speak much much louder than the WORDS and/or MUSIC that the man has said or sung. He has followed the broken path of many christians before him that have sold out his soul for worldly gain and for the fear of man.
I’m encouraged now to discuss SGM songs with my new senior pastor. We shouldn’t be singing ANY songs from an organization that actively protected child molesters, actively propped up a pastor who has serious and detrimental sins that he has not repented from, and an organization that has DESTORYED hundreds upon hundreds of families and individual’s lives.
I wouldn’t want to sing worship songs written by Adolf Hitler no matter how wonderful they may sound or doctrinally sound they are. I choose to do the same with Kauflin and any other SGM music.
I don’t know why comments are showing with the newest first. I hate it and have tried to change it in the settings but have not been successful. I’ll have Guy take a look at things later on today.
Somewhere – while having that conversation with your pastor you should probably make sure that Amazing Grace is not on the playlist either. You know about that John Newton!!
If someone writes a new melody and new words for a chorus to an old hymn – like Chris Tomlin did with Amazing Grace – My Chains Are Gone, they must put their name on it for copyright purposes. I think if you look closely, the credits will detail what the new writer provided (original words by xxxx Additional lyrics by XX and music by xx) There are some industry practices for this type of thing and Bob is not making them up. Writing new melodies for hymns to make them more sing-able is perfectly legit. Sometimes I preferred the original melody, but other times I was grateful because the original ones stunk.
Truthfully, I can live with some old SGM music, but I prefer the old stuff. Most of what was written over the last 10 years won’t last, anyway. I think some of the classic Altrogge stuff will (I Stand in Awe, One Pure and Holy Passion, Forever Grateful) but those songs had a different emphasis. The cookers probably have a couple as well – Before the Throne.. but overall I can live without it. I probably would not attend a church that had a steady diet of SGM music as it would likely be pointing to bigger problems.
Stvmac,
That being said, I always wondered why people highly regarded the namesake of Calvinism, John Calvin. He was an unrepentant murderer who had one of his “enemies” (Michael Servetus) burned at the stake for heresy. How Christlike is that? Should we follow the teachings of a murderer? By the by, I have read JI Packer’s “defense” of Calvin and I do know that the base principals of calvinism were set up by the council of Dort. Packer’s logic is the same logic that allows the types like Mahaney and Driscoll to remain in the pulpit.
So … I’m not singing Bob Kauflin songs, I’m not reading John Calvin’s writings and I refuse to follow people like Mahaney, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Driscoll and all of the other clowns that spit in the eye of Christ.
Wow, somewhere, that is exactly what I think about Calvin and had thought it from the beginning.
That Calvin had a real big problem and we were supposed to follow his brand of religion.
No thanks.
I have observed that our particular take on God is revealed by the men, and women, we admire and follow.
Its amazing that the man charged with the abduction of Heather Graham, the missing UVA student, was expelled from Christian Liberty after raping
a girl on campus. Another example of a “Christian” organization not taking responsibility and protecting future victims.
This is what evangelical Christians are missing. You don’t and should not follow pastors, leaders, groups, churches, waves, etc.. You follow Christ and Him alone. If you are able to find a church that is healthy and does it “well” then great. Just don’t get caught up in their movement and don’t desire the attention of pastors and leaders.
I think that there is something within the hearts of Christians from the United States that makes them want to be a part of something big. Something important. Something different. When in fact the Holy Spirit is calling us to Christ and Him alone. Remember, what really matters is your heart before the Lord and your actions.
@stvmac – I for one am not bashing SGM music. I was just saying it often triggers some emotional responses me that make it difficult to worship. Kind of like someone who was physically abused might reflexively raise a hand to someone who grabbed them from behind. I am not going to bash anyone who wrote the music, because I’m sure most of them had good intentions. And I agree with whoever said that the older SGM music was better. Less words, more to the point, less bashing of sin. There are actually some of the older songs I like.
@Out of Babylon – that’s so tragic! For some reason I didn’t hear that part on the news, but they did say he had some misdemeanors. I knew something in the story wasn’t adding up! I really had a gut feeling that he was a person who had not been confronted with his faults or sins – before I knew how serious they had been!
Jenn Grover: Amen to the Altrogge songs – I believe – without a doubt – he is one of the few in SGM’s history that has always the heart to follow Jesus above all else. I also think he has true pastor’s heart that loves and serves his flock.
Babylon, according to CNN, the woman said not to go forward with the case and there was not enough evidence to arrest him. Not sure what else LU could have done.
It’s time for everyone to move forward from here. This has occupied far too many speculation hours.
Somewhereintime-that was well said and without the church that you attend having that same goal- that the “Holy Spirit is calling us to Christ and Him Alone” it seems these organizations will always
default to building their own kingdoms. The simplest thing of what matters “your heart before the Lord and your actions” seems so far away from the prevailing Christian culture.
Jenn-You are correct the suspect in Hannah’s disappearance was never charged in a previous accusation of rape because the victim did
not pursue legal action.
I have a request: Recently, while browsing the site, I came across some position papers on divorce and remarriage from CLC written (I believe) in 2002. OF course, instead of keep the link or downloading right away, I thought I’d be able to easily find them again, but now I find I cannot. Can anyone link me to them, please> And thanks.
Kris, I noticed the number count on the right is gone too. The newest to the oldest and the numbers missing might be related, FYI.
TF – another week, another drive by SGMer who feels it is his or her God-given responsibility to tell us what to do. No one forces you to read here.
As a long time member of CLC,I was there at the very first celebration. This was a collective gathering of the handful of SGM churches back in the early 80’s.
I was a member of the worship band and spent many long hours of rehearsal along side the rest of the team in preparation for this special event. Finally, the day arrived where we drove to Indiana, PA and assembled on stage for the last rehearsal and sound check, with all of the musicians at their place.
About an hour before the start of the meeting, a man named Bob Kauflin walked onto the stage. Many of us recognized him as the keyboard player of the Christian band GLAD. Folks gathered around, telling him how happy they were to meet him and how much they loved GLAD.
And then Bob took his place at the piano.
Yes, the piano player, a member of CLC, who had been practicing and rehearsing for many hours with the worship band, was told, one hour prior to the start of the first meeting, to step aside and leave the stage because Bob Kauflin was going to play piano. The young man was crushed. But he obeyed and stepped aside. I saw him off to the side crying out to the Lord asking for help.
When the meeting began, 2000 people saw Bob Kauflin playing piano as one of the gang, a member of the band, joined together with these folks, when in fact he was not a member of any SGM church, and could not name any of the other band members, having shown up only an hour before.
This was the beginning moments of Bob Kauflin’s ministry at SGM – deception, arrogance, hypocracy, and cruel treatment of a brother in Christ.
From this moment forward, SGM experienced unprecedented numerical growth and financial gain in a very short period of time.
What is it with stupid people who think they can go forward in life without taking a long hard look at the past? Its like the lady I know who had four total creeps in a row treat her like dirt, but she never stopped to ask why she got into that sort of relationship in the first place.
If your car gets stuck in a rut, usually the way out is backing up first. If an army is embroiled in a deathly conflict, sometimes the way to victory is a strategic retreat to regroup and rethink.
A hospital admission can make you take a long hard look at yourself. I know a guy who had major heart surgery and he didn’t just go forward. He had to take a long look at his diet of bacon and bakery sweets, and now he eats oatmeal and decent dinners. You gotta go back, reexamine, see what went wrong to get you into a mess.
This is why SGM ended up so rotten. They never took a long look at the terrible abuses of the Ft Lauderdale shepherding movement of the 70s to avoid that sort of top heavy authority structure. They never looked at churches that go from life to death and make the connection that we are dependent on God to move, we MUST prioritize prayer. I am not sure CLC, after the realization that they had turned some principles into legalistic practices, ever bothered to take a much deeper longer backwards look.
When Israel faced famine, God made David take a long hard backwards look at the sins of King Saul (the Gibeonites). David could not go forward until he made restitution for the past.
These people who speak about going forward have no interest in repenting for the past or making restitution, they just want us to know how superior they are. Which is why they will go from one delusion of superior leaders and groups to another. Kauflin went from 70s shepherding under a heavy handed Ron Klaus (John Poole successor) straight into the arms of CJ.
We have got to examine why we fell under the SGM spell ( or Gospel Coalition, etc) or we probably will repeat it again.
Somewhere said it well “I think that there is something within the hearts of Christians from the United States that makes them want to be a part of something big. Something important. Something different. When in fact the Holy Spirit is calling us to Christ and Him alone”.
Hi Tf
Ya know SGM would rather you look at porn than waste your time reading here.