Free Discussion
September 19, 2014 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Guy tells me that the previous post was simply overloaded with comments, so let’s start a new one.
Feel free to post anything related to Sovereign Grace Ministries…or, tell us a bit about your SGM experience. What attracted you to SGM? How long were you part of SGM? Are you still part of SGM, or did you leave? If so, what made you decide to leave?
Or, if you were never part of SGM but are now interested in this discussion, what is it that you find interesting?
© 2014 – 2015, Kris. All rights reserved.
I don’t think CJ would come back to CLC unless he was compelled by force.
While I am sympathetic to Josh Harris’ upbringing and manipulation by CJ. I do hope that he will come clean.
Maybe the separation of time and space will allow him to see things more clearly.
Pete,
No SGM-speak, just English. Cynical, speculative posts don’t help me understand the situation, just the mindset of the posters.
XianJaneway,
Good definition. I’m not claiming cynicism is a sin. I’m with you in “Won’t get fooled again” (you reminded me of The Who). I think Joshua is, too.
However, cynicism can also blind people to acknowledging things that don’t fit in their cynical minset, like Josh’s references to the arrangements with CJ’s apostleship and dictating his successor being bad ideas. I think Katie found a good balance in interpreting Josh’s references to CJ.
Speaking about CJ Mahaney “the blackmailer in Chief” of SGM. Did you guys see Todd Whilhelm’s latest post about attempts to revive CJ?
http://thouarttheman.org/2015/01/23/gospel-glitterati-attempting-to-get-mahaney-back-in-circulation/#comment-10515
I wonder when Paul was putting together scripture and he called for people to be Bereans is it possible that it was becuase he feared organizations like SGM down the road? Organizations that would slaughter and destroy the sheep? When Jesus warned of wolves was he thinking of people like CJ Mahaney? Dave Havey? In the Lord’s omniscience did you think of people like CJ Mahaney? When Jesus taught about false prophets and false teachers did he have CJ Mahaney in mind? I’m just asking.
Some of you guys really need to learn critical thinking skills. My theological burn job came from Mormonism. It hurt, it was painful….I went through hell as a 22 year old college kid. But my learning from that experience later kept me away from Soveriegn Grace. I leanred how to think critically and apply that thought process as well. That pain at 22 saved me from further pain in my 30’s from a highly questionable organziation and sect.
Dave,
Fair enough but just know that saying something is “not helpful” within CLC/SGM means that you don’t like what someone is saying or doing and you want them to stop it.
Eagle, good questions there. A lot of us are wishing we saw “back then” what we see now. This blog, along with Brent’s and Refuge, has helped us see a lot of things we brushed under the rug for years. I saw a lot of red flags but didn’t know what to do with them until these conversations started in public.
The history of communication from SGM and CLC has often times seemed cloaked in obfuscation–things seem rarely to be what they are. When leadership does not clearly communicate, people will tend to speculate. Clear, unambiguous statements that are true would be most helpful to the hearers. People speculate here because it would seem that in numbers and variety of experience there seems to be the keys to cracking the code, so to speak. It would be interesting if just one Sunday a month, the leadership would commit to speaking unambiguously–if they feel like they cannot speak the truth directly, just say we are unwilling to share the truth with you, rather than the cloaking, misdirection-type language, which though flowery and sweet still does not leave the listener knowing more than they did before. The more leadership admonishes the congregation not to speculate–well it is like telling someone hanging from a cliff not to look down.
Pete,
Gotcha. I’m sorry for failing to explain what I was thinking. I understand that my doing so was not helpful.
:-)
Dave MacK-
I would greatly appreciate a response from you on this, given your credibility:
1. Is it correct, as Paul Kellen has posted, that before the NM trial Josh Harris told a TV interviewer that in the history of CLC there had never been any sex abuse cover up?
2. Is this quote which was posted earlier in this thread true:
“During the Morales trial Grant Layman swore under oath that all the CLC Pastors, including Harris, held a meeting in which they agreed (and conspired to obstruct justice in the process) not to report that Morales was a self-confessed pedophile because they were afraid of lawsuits.”
3.If both are true, did Josh ever apologize with no excuses?
4. If #1 the TV quote from Paul Kellen is true, but this quote #2 about the secret pastors meeting is false, and so we only need to look at #1…… did Josh say he was ignorant when he talked to the TV camera? Or did he say it was sort of true because Nate was no longer IN CLC….it depends on what the meaning of “is” is- I mean the meaning of “in”? Or did he admit he lied?
I think I have followed this blog well, but the real question for me is the TV interview, if Kellen quotes it accurately. Was there a public apology if Josh lied?
I am also curious if you know anything about that alleged secret meeting.
Thanks for all your imput by the way.
@ X……
Very well put.
“The truth is that Joshua Harris was indoctrinated, programmed, and used by the people who were supposed to care for him and mentor him. I honestly have great sympathy for the man–I can’t imagine what he’s going through, as he realizes his mentor was likely a narcissist, & his father’s mentor (Gothard) was a predatory, malignant narcissist.”
I’ve been through a few situations in my past realizing that somebody I loved and admired and perhaps wanted some sort of relationship with was a sociopath. You don’t see it when they are courting you with warmth and outer Christian pretenses. You start to see it when you watch them treat another like a roach to be squashed…and then when you ask them about it, sure there must be some mistake, some explanation…….you become a roach. Then you see it. But it can be agonizing.
Was anyone else left scratching their heads at Josh’s contradictory statements yesterday?
He made statements about ‘many mistakes’ that were made on his watch but then, he declares that he doesn’t ‘regret’ anything.
He says God was responsible for all that transpired. Does that mean he believes God orchestrated the sinful actions and cover-ups or that he orchestrated everyone getting exposed? If, he is asking for repentance and change, why have they changed so little?
He makes several complimentary comments about CJ but then questions CJ’s good judgment in installing someone lacking training, like Josh, to lead such a large church? Does he consider CJ wise or a fool? While I am not looking for him to throw CJ under the bus, rewriting history doesn’t help anyone involved.
Josh says he wants to enroll at Regent (btw, has he been accepted?) to be exposed to a wide variety of thoughts. Nice! But then, he tells people (who know him fairly well-some since childhood) ‘to shove their opinions in their prayer closets.’ That was arguably his most passionate comment so, we can see he is not quite ready to hear opposing views.
You can’t have it both ways, Josh. Please own-up to your most public sins before you leave CLC. That is what ‘finishing well” means in this scenario. Now is your opportunity for true public repentance. That is the way to gain the grace to change and start over fresh.
Contradictory teachings are a hallmark of SGM. I used to work hard to parse them out over the decades. Of course, you never know what has transpired behind closed doors so you are always left a bit in a quandary. It helps to look at the way they have staged this announcement. For instance, they waited until many other pastors left. I now wonder if some of them left because they knew Josh was planning to leave? And, did the loss of tithe contributions have anything to do with Josh’s decisions? More importantly, are there things left unsaid about the future of CLC? What announcements are forthcoming? Who exactly makes major decisions at CLC these days and who will make those decisions once Josh leaves? So many questions and so few answers.
The manner in which CLC pastors inform their audience, is one way the leaders get to do what they want and appease their clap-happy audience. Not much seems to have changed there in spite of name-changes and shifts of leadership.
I think it might be best for them to sell the property, pay back CJ for his basement digs and, everybody follow Josh’s example and, migrate elsewhere to detox.
I posted this on my Facebook page yesterday. I’ll be back on Survivors in 6-8 weeks.
Brent Detwiler Joshua’s greatest need is not formal study. He needs courage, integrity and an uncompromising commitment to Christ. A good seminary will increase his knowledge of the Bible but it won’t produce truth or wisdom in the inward man. “Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, and in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.” (Psa 51:6) Going to seminary won’t relief Joshua’s conscience or end the conviction of the Holy Spirit in his life. Larry Tomczak, C.J. Mahaney, and Dave Harvey all ran from the dealings of God. Josh is following in their footstep. What he needs most is to deal with the deceitfulness, broken promises and man pleasing that have often characterized his leadership since becoming sr. pastor in 2004. For example, Josh and his pastoral team decided not to report Nathaniel Morales to law enforcement in 2007 out of concern for a lawsuit even though they knew Morales was a serial, predatory and self-confessed child molester going back to 1980. In this regard, crucial evidence of an incriminating nature was withheld by Joshua, Mark Mitchell and CLC lawyer, Lars Lieberer in their oral reports to CLC in October. The “independent investigation” was neither independent nor credible. Over the next 6-8 weeks, I hope to finish a book length expos’e on the subject. It will prove their guilt in no uncertain terms. For years I tried to help C.J. in private. I never intended to send out the documents to the SGM pastors. Only his lying and intransigent made it necessary. Now, I am at a similar crossroads with Joshua and the CLC pastors. I have made every effort possible to meet with them in private in order to help them. They have no interest. It is now time to present the facts in keeping with Scripture. The cover up must be exposed. I have never desired the demise of SGM or CLC but both have come to pass. It is the Lord’s doing. I hope revival comes to CLC but that won’t happen until Joshua and the pastors deal with the past and pursue “truth in the innermost being” in the present. As it stands they have demonstrated no willingness to do so.
5Years,
I don’t have a way to verify those statements. I have not seen the TV interview with Harris nor do I have recordings or transcripts of the Morales trial. I don’t recall hearing anything about quote #2 in the months surrounding the trial. If that is an accurate reporting of Layman’s testimony I am surprised that no one seems to have mentioned it in May or June. The only quote from Layman that I saw at that time was his statement that he believed he should have reported Morales to the authorities, and did not.
It sounds like Brent has documentation beyond what I have seen and I look forward to his reporting when it is ready.
Here is the news report with the interview with Josh.
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/10/sex-scandal-church-turned-deaf-ear-to-alleged-abuse-81189.html
Here is the quote:
I think the most significant take-away from Josh’s message comes from what he said indirectly. By emphasizing his inexperience and lack of education as the reason for going away to study, Josh was admitting that he has not done a good job running the church and that he doesn’t think he can in the near future; and by advising the remaining pastors to find a replacement outside CLC he is saying that those who are within the church cannot do the job, either.
In other words, Josh thinks CLC is in really big trouble. If the church was in fine shape, neither of these statements would be necessary.
I agree with persona – after reading the transcript, I think Josh sacrificed basic reason for positive spin. And requests to refrain from speculation are, within CLC/SGM culture, always an indication that there really is something else going on behind the scenes.
I think before several of the people on this blog feel that they can place themselves as Josh’s judges, they should try to think how hard might have been to get to a place ready to be deprogrammed and free from a cult or a cultic type charismatic personality like CJ. I know people that never make it to that point or and never recuperate from such an experience.
Yes, we all will be accountable before the Lord for all our actions and failures. I am glad God is more merciful to each other than most of us are to one another. Have you ever been in a cult where you admire and trust the leader who happens to be in error? Let me tell you, it takes a lot before you can even realized that that someone you highly admire and trust had been using you and manipulated you to his/her advantage. Some of us here need to ask God to learn what mercy is. Maybe some of you are already perfect and can throw the “first stone” at Josh, but I have long way to go.
Mary Melissa, I think it will be easier for some to show mercy to Josh and the other leaders when they begin to hear those same leaders call for mercy and restoration for those who have been digifted, shunned and shamed by their leadership. Mercy needs to flow in all directions.
Pete Berry-
Thank you. I never saw that link before. Ok, if Josh knew about Morales, then he lied.
Is it correct to say that some pastors read a confession out loud about this subject, and confessed they lied? Is it correct to say that those pastors might feel like they confessed their sin and now it is covered by the blood of Jesus? (I can understand that, even if I think it is not enough to confess and there needs to be restitution to victims.) Did Josh admit he lied to this reporter?
Dave- Thanks. Yes, I suspect Brent’s expose will be a doozy. I remember a long time ago he said something about writing affadvits relating to the SGM polity, when they put out that nonsense that every church was independent and there was no control over churches from the top. That was an outright lie. I am sure he knows a lot that was hidden.
Brent-do NOT speculate. You have tendency to take a lot of facts and sometimes move into speculation. You did it trying to guess who I am and you were wrong. If you want your expose to matter, then stay with facts. I don’t mean to discount the testimony of abuse victims, where they cannot prove the abuse and SGM claims it is made up. I don’t mean that. Sometimes we have to go with gut instinct on who we believe, and I believe the victims. What I do mean is, don’t give SGM/CLC any opportunity to trash the whole expose because you speculated on subjects where they can prove you are wrong. OK? Will pray for you.
Mary M:
Many of us who comment here fled the cultishness of CLC over the past five years. Josh is a late-comer to realize the need to evacuate.
Many of us have been battered in similar or more horrific ways than Josh and have yet to receive personal apologies for abuse at the hands of the remaining CLC pastors, including Josh. That may be why some have little patience for double-speak and obfuscation.
Abuse of a member or a child of a member from those in a position of power, is worse than the wounds a leader incurs as a result of his own poor leadership.
Brent-
When are you going to write your own book length, “Mea Culpa” ?
I would be more comfortable with your pursuit of the truth, if you started with yourself.
Mary M:
I don’t pick up that people are being unmerciful; quite the contrary. I think for the most part they are making strong appeals for RELEVANT repentance. The reasons Josh gave for leaving are irrelevant and have nothing to do with the root issue(s) that need to be repented of.
Actually, I don’t think Josh or any SGM leader has repented of the root sin that caused and continues to cause such angst and harm in the church. In most cases it has not even been put on the table, and if it has, the leaders have dismissed it out of hand. I know this from personal experience.
As I’ve said before, issues of sexual abuse cover-up, lack of transparency, and broken promises regarding polity are all horrendous but they are still symptoms of a deeper and more fundamental problem, which is the root cause of all the symptoms.
At the end of the day, it does not beget healing and freedom for anyone if the root remains intact. This is why CLC and the leaders keep going in circles. They are not scratching where it itches, and so the itch remains.
The symptoms, in and of themselves, are definitely sin and need to be acknowledged and repented of but how much better to lay the axe at the root? When the root is exposed, the axe can be laid to it with accuracy and terminal effect. This has yet to happen.
Having personally confronted many a SGM leader regarding the root sin, I can tell you they do not have a clue and/or categorically reject the notion of what the root sin might be. I also believe that many who have come out of a SGM churches have this same difficulty. They only know something was terribly wrong but have difficulty articulating the fundamental problem.
It is disheartening to see Josh and many others who have left SGM remain befuddled and confused as to what fundamentally caused the lion’s share of problems cited on this blog.
Now that Josh has had the guts to admit that he was unqualified for leadership, and was place into leadership in an improper way, I call on all CLC pastors to follow Josh’s leadership and resign immediately. Only two current pastors — Keith Welton and Robin Boisvert — have seminary training. All were either installed by CJ or by Josh — neither of whom had adequate authority to “ordain” anyone to ministry. Therefore, show some backbone and resign.
CLC members — bet you wished you could have your votes back from last week when you all voted to keep them as elders. Abandon ship!
Off topic – from the left coast – the deceit continues….
SG Pasadena has launched a new website.
http://www.sovgracepasadena.org/
On the home page is a panoramic photo of a service, I find this deceitful as the picture is at least 2 years old. There are many in the picture, including me, who have left the chuch in the last 2 years. Also, I believe it was taken on an Easter Sunday due to the size of the congregation (guests)and the clothing I was wearing.
Just gowes to show the SGC/SGM deceitfulness is coast to coast!!
Come on Ron & Lynn, you could have at least used a current picture!!
AbandonShip–
CLC has not had a vote regarding the existing elders/pastors, and they have stated that they intend to be grandfathered in and not voted on. (Whoever’s left by the time the constitution is ratified….)
Well one thing that may happen with Josh Harris after he leaves the area and is no longer part of CLC will be his seeing just how deceived he was. I have had at least two people tell me that it wasn’t until they left CLC that their eyes were opened and they saw just how deceived they were.
As companion to the video link and quote above from October 2012, below is what Josh said, in part, after the Morales verdict on May 18, 2014.
Matt Redmond addresses it here: http://mattbredmond.com/2014/05/19/josh-harris-and-the-handling-of-the-nate-morales-issue/
I also recall Josh responding to a question about how his October 2012 statement could be true in light of the information that came out on Morales. I will try to find that as well. It was the along the lines of they didn’t have the right information.
I think it is terribly difficult to separate from the SGM way of doing things and it appears even more difficult fir pastors to do so. I think it can take the time and space Musician referenced to see some of those things more clearly.
I do also wonder what the, “rest if the story” is. When was the last time any of these guys really told s the whole story? I am not sure that they ever have.
I get Pete Barry’s skepticism and I also get Dave Mackenzie and Mary Melissa’s charity. Why does it have to be one the other? I think it’s because we have let “them” define us. We either believe Josh or we don’t. Why? Why can’t it be both? Why can’t we say, “I saw what appeared to be a genuine response from Josh, but I know from my experience, there is always more to the story. Lord, help me discern!”
I know, personally, how hard it is to trust what you are being told and I don’t think I could (well, I know I could, but I shouldn’t) ever chastise anyone who doesn’t believe a word they are saying, but let’s all recognize that we all probably have areas of blindness and bias that are shaping our views. Sometime those biases help us see things legitimately and sometimes they get in our way, but let’s not accuse each other of lacking critical thinking skills or critique each other when we have different perspectives.
When we insist that other people must share our views on these issues we are right back to the old SGM ways.
I am glad God is delivering Josh from SGM, my concern is for the pastors left in CLC and the people that don’t see who CJ really is. Josh will be going to a school who has women teachers, teachers from different denominations and non denominations which shows a clear rejection of the SGM’s theological errors. What I don’t understand is that Clarksburg has over 100 people that still worship CJ and think highly of SGM as an organization. Some of them are my friends, I don’t understand how intelligent, nice and educated professionals can not see the errors in SGM. This is a proof that CJ has some kind of power over them. I would not be surprise that SGM and CJ will come back to Maryland. They aren’t doing well in Kentucky. Although, I think the Pastor’s college has been closed. They are operating at a growing deficit. It would seem ideal for both organizations, CLC and SGM to be reunited. Anything can happened with the current CLC pastors now left to lead.
Has anyone ever heard of that college that Josh is going to attend? Are they accredited and if so by what organization? Can one really complete a degree in a year? Seems its too short of a time, unless its a fly by night program that gives credit for life experience. I am hoping its more than something like the SGM ‘pastor’s college’.
lae,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regent_College
Thanks Dave!
I also decided to go to the webpage of the school directly and look at the programs. There are 2 that are one year programs. This is the information for one of the programs:
Goal
Gain a foundation in the Christian faith, and find out why theological education is important for the whole body of Christ, not just those working for churches or parachurch organizations.
Credit Hours
24
Completion Time
minimum 1 year full-time
Requirements
You must have a bachelor’s degree
or
be at least 28 years of age and able to demonstrate how your life / vocational / educational experience can be seen as equivalent to a university degree.
Foundational Courses
Get a taste from the core of the master’s degree programs and become familiar with an overall biblical perspective. This will serve as a foundation for your other courses.
Concentrations
Concentrations are not part of the GradDipCS program.
The other one year class was for after taking one of their other classes.
+++++++++++++++++++++
So, it looks like a watered down lay person’s type of program, not the higher level I was hoping for, and yep it is the ‘life experiences can substitute for a BA’ type of a college.
SOOOOOOO many homeschooled folks go for these colleges instead of an accredited one that meets some external pre-set standards.
I was hoping for more, oh, well….
I will have to admit, I do not see how in the world this has become all about hating on Josh and the people of CLC.
My gosh.
The people who remain at CLC are primarily those who were victimized by the pastors who left with SGM. They were the ones whose stories first spattered these blogs. They were the ones calling for reform. They were the ones Josh first took a fall for. Then, Josh experienced what it was like to also be dismembered by his mentors in SGM.
They are victims. They find solace in the comfort of one another, for the first time speaking freely amongst themselves about their abuse.
If they want to stay there and hold one another, that’s their business.
I cannot believe how the blogs are continuing to victimize those who have been spiritually abused by attacking them for staying at CLC. Shut up already. It’s none of your business.
I cannot believe how the blogs have somehow twisted all of this to make it about Josh? Do we remember who the tyrants were in this story?
This isn’t a CLC problem. The problem has relocated. Let the people of CLC regroup any way they please and stay out of it. They are victims.
Eagle- if Wartburg truly sent you to spy on a meeting, which you apparently did with glee, they are irresponsible. This isn’t some sort of recreational event. This is heartbroken people losing all the people they love.
You have no story and they certainly shouldn’t have given you weeks of their blog to tell it. I tried to read it. You seem to have some obsession with a male coworker who was married with children. And, you were traumatized by being invited to church because you were Mormon once. And, you read a bunch of crap online about sex abuse in SGM, which has largely been proven false. And, somebody accused you of I never could figure out what. And, so you are a victim and are devoting your life to recovering from it?
You are a troll. You are the latest DPV – someone chiming in who has no authentic knowledge or reason to be speaking on this issue. Go away and get your own life.
BD – Leave CLC alone and keep your focus where it belongs.
They only people remaining at CLC are the victims this blog once protected.
Let them be.
Let me give you a concrete example of where my skepticism comes from. The CLC forum admin had two meetings with pastors at their request to discuss the forum. In those meetings, they expressed there displeasure and disagreement with how the forum was run. In some cases, pastors disagreed that the forum should even exist.
After the second meeting, Dave Brewer approached us as the meeting was breaking up. He told us that they were drafting a letter to inform the church that Josh and Kelley Murphy, who were attending the pastors college on CLC’s dime, were not going to serve in CLC as planned because of the recent disagreements given Kelly was related to CJ. Dave was concerned how the congregation was going to respond primarily because of how the severance issue went down. He asked us to go back to the forum and poll the members to see how people might react (“hit the street” was how he put it). I was personally dumbstruck. He had just spent the past two hours telling us the forum was wrong and now he wanted to use it because he was scared of the congregation’s reaction. We declined. Incidentally, I told him then I personally didn’t see a problem with Josh and Kelley moving on.
I came away with the impression that the pastors were cowardly and had no moral center. Also, it was a very clear example of the difference between what really happens behind the scenes versus what most members see. Disappointing is an understatement.
He did end up sending us a draft of the letter and asking for our feedback. The three other forum admin discussed it and sent back some editorial comments. I could not find it in myself to participate. As I said, we didn’t ask for forum members feedback.
This is just one example of the dichotomy between reality and what was put forward that I experienced.
Finally, lest anyone question whether this story is true, below I have included a copy of the actual email Dave sent the four forum admin.
Just Saying, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Seriously.
And Eagles are an endangered species. In the 24th century, we don’t take kindly to people shooting at them. ;) Who made you the Eagle-Whisperer, that you are almighty and can see into his subconscious? I truly hope Eagle lets your comments roll off his back, because you are way, way out of line and way off.
Just Saying, you said,
Eagle- if Wartburg truly sent you to spy on a meeting, which you apparently did with glee, they are irresponsible. This isn’t some sort of recreational event. This is heartbroken people losing all the people they love.
—
Wait till this evening when you see my pictures uploaded. :-) Lets see Sunday I penetrated Covenant Life Church, do you think I have a possibility with the National Clandestine Service of the CIA?
Since you won’t do your homework on what I meant by North Korean Minder I am linking this Reuters news article for you to read. I found the treatment similar in many ways. I did think I was going to get kicked out for taking a couple of pictures of some books. And I missed the opportunity to breathe in peace, especially with someone breathing down my neck. Very unique experience.
So SGM and former SGM churches have an effective totalitarian system that would make the East German Secret police (Stasi) jealous. Oh well….I did what I did with joy. The more people realize that Covenant Life Church is a cult, a sect and learn to stay away the better. The more people leave and find freedom from CLC the better. I find it interesting that I knew more about the news in advance then people at CLC who call that place home. If an outsider knows more about the news and inner workings and what is to break than an insider…well what does that say. That tells me its a warped place in many ways. I’m sorry but I won’t sugar coat hard truth sweetheart.
Here’s the article about North Korean Minders
http://blogs.reuters.com/photographers-blog/2013/08/09/five-days-with-my-north-korean-minders/
Noooooo Eagle, you’re a RACIST!!!! ;)
Wow this made my eyes pop out!” 8-O
Just saying said the following,
“And, you read a bunch of crap online about sex abuse in SGM, which has largely been proven false.
I have an announcement folks!!! Just Saying thinks the stories about sex abuse in SGM have been proven false. So sex abuse isn’t a problem in SGM? So I take it that those stories up top are all fabricated? Wow think of all the people who lied under oath in the Nate Morales trial. Think of the way the police department was out to slander and shame CLC. That poor church. The poor victims…CLC…instead of the kids who were sexually abused. So the SGM sex abuse stories are false? Really? Good God!
You know the old saying that you can tell the person is lying when their lips move. Sad to say but you can tell when CLC/SGM Leaders aren’t telling the whole truth or at least obfuscating it when their lips are moving.
It will be interesting one day when these leaders have to give an account to God for their actions.
just saying said:
I sure would like to know where the alleged sex abuse “has largely been proven false.”
The multiparty lawsuit was dismissed due to legalities including how late they waited to file the suit. A shame it didn’t go to trial so we would get a better determination of just how true what was alleged in the lawsuit was.
Grant Layman testified under oath that he new about the actions of Nathan Morale molesting boys at CLC and didn’t report it. The fact that Layman and other CLC pastors would hide this sex abuse makes you wonder what other sex abuse they have hidden. I have no doubt that there is more especially when Josh Harris had previously denied what Grant Layman testified under oath.
If anyone needs to get their facts straight you do “just saying.” Are you going to claim Noel’s story is false? What about Happy Mom’s story or what David Adams did to his step daughter? Have these also been proven false?
Just Saying….Mormonism was an experience. It was hell, it was difficult and hard. Having to face reality about being in a cult was challenging. I moved from Montana to California which helped me get away from it. It haunted me for years, I beat myself up for years and being burned like that taught me a lot about discernment. I had to face my own cognitive dissonance. It taught me about questioning. The importance of asking questions. The importance of reading, investigating, looking at different sources in making my decisions. Being burned is painful. I think a lot of people here know what it means to be burned. And I grieve with them. Plus I think of what I put my family and some friends through. I was filled with a lot of shame. After I pushed back from Mormonism and walked away I decided that I would not get involved another cult and I’d work hard to stay away. That was a promise I made myself. I didn’t want to repeat the mistakes from my college days.
Fast forward to 2012 and the pressure I was under to attend Sovereign Grace. I worked hard at staying away. After exciting and walking away from Mormonism in college, Sovereign Grace had so many red flags it was stunning. SGM Survivors reminded me of exmormon.org. When I posed questions about Redeemer Arlington on Survivors I had people who reached out behind the scenes telling me it was a cult and to stay away. One of those people came to my baptism and told me that I made a wise decision in staying away as Sovereign Grace is not healthy.
These are the reasons I had for staying away. Sovereign Grace is a sick and twisted denomination. If it were indeed healthy blogs like this would not exist. I wish it weren’t the case, I honestly would love to be proven wrong. But I am not going to get involved and I wanted to stay away from a cult. The people who warned me to stay away or cautioned me I thank them for their love and sincerity. I thank them for caring about me. It meant the world to me and those who warned me and took the extra effort to reach out from behind the scenes I love them.
Oh and Just Saying when you approach 140 people and repent of your sin and ask for forgiveness THEN you can take a shot at my integrity and character. Until then can I recommend you read the book True Believer by Eric Hoffer? You might find yourself in there.
Eagle – I’ve heard that the true test of one’s integrity is to approach 141 people in repentance…
Sorry, I couldn’t resist a little levity. You’ve mentioned this just about every time you’ve talked about yourself, so this frequency is starting to seem funny. I don’t mean any harm, but maybe you will take offense, so I will apologize in advance.
Regent College is a very respected Canadian Seminary that has had many well known faculty and bible scholars. It is known more for it’s graduate programs and it was a surprise to me they even gave out undergraduate degrees. It is common for Pastor’s across North America to take a class or two at Regent while on a sabbatical or on study break.
Some notable faculty emeriti include Eugene Peterson, Maxine Hancock, Gordon Fee, J.I. Packer and Bruce Waltke (from Wikipedia article on Regent)
Isn’t there an ex-SGM church in Vancouver, BC?
Hey guys… and gals, we better calm down. We don’t want Guy coming on here having to reprimand us.
It’s like having dad show up unexpectedly when the kids are in a knock down drag out fight…….it get’s real quiet, real fast.
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—> Thatz gotta hurt?”
hmmm…
Da Ceege is a proverbial religious confidence man…
He was Josh’s mentor,
Krunch !
What does that make Josh?
(Blinded by da Light?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOR_WJF6Bp4
Watch da cameras…
Sopy
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Pete Berry,
You hit the nail on the head-who is left in power now? The two Trojan Horses who were part of the meeting in 2007 where it was brought to the leaders attention by Mr. Bates that Nate was at it again under the guise of religion. Robin Boisvert and Kenneth Maresco are still behind the scenes pulling the strings and are the strongholds that keep any type of reform from being realized. Neither of these two men publicly renounced the practices of the former administration. They are behind the scenes like puppet masters pulling the strings the same way C.J. was behind the scenes pulling the strings. These two have been at it for the past 30 years and they are really good at totalitarian control, making people feel uncomfortable in their own church, eyeing people suspiciously who challenge the status quo, talking out both sides of their mouth’s with feigned words through condescension and marginalizing sincere disciples. And “their mouth speaks great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage”. Jude 17 Both of these leaders are saturated with that disdain and contempt towards those who have no position in their hierarchy only their position in Christ from which to speak.
They made it very clear the new pastor will be coming from outside of CLC or SGM circles. They are looking for fresh blood because they know they need it.
I believe all the pastors involved publicly apologized for the 2007 incident. What more do you want?
just sayin
Most healthy organizations publicize crimes committed in their midst.
They do this to:
1. Make sure other victims come forward
2. Root out any other similar criminals in their midst
3. Allow victims and their families to be heard, affirmed, and to begin the long road of healing
A simple, “mistakes were made, let’s move on and forget about it” is almost as bad as the cover-up of these crimes.
It’s the least they could do, and they have refused to do so, as far as I can tell.
I believe all the pastors involved publicly apologized for the 2007 incident. What more do you want?
Restitution.
I would not think somebody was repentant if they didn’t offer to clean up the mess they made.
Speaking in broader terms than CLC, like including Fairfax, etc, at the very least you offer to pay for counseling. Around here it can be 100 a visit for even Christian ones. That’s 5,000 a year for once a week. 10,000 a year if twice a week. If a child needs to be hospitalized for a time, like Wallace’s girl, you find out if the insurance pays it fully and if not, you pay it, even if it is 4, 5,6,8,000 a month.
CLC had the money to make some restitution, at the very least to exCLCersMom and her daughter. They could have given something for all the anguish. Even our unsaved secular legal system recognizes that money can’t give back what was taken emotionally, nevertheless money is used to return justice to the victims of abuse.
Of course CLC is going broke. I believe if they had told the lawyers to shut up and had then made financial restitution, God would have honored that and blessed their finances.
Anybody can say they are sorry. It is making restitution that proves you really are sorry.
somewhereintime,
Regarding your response, don’t let vengeance cloud your judgment. Harris’ family has without doubt experienced great pressures, and don’t think for a second that if it got hot enough over there, she’d put him on notice to fix it or else. You think that stuff pulls you close? Think again.
Do you think I’m giving him a pass? Wrong again. He’s been pulled off his pedestal. Actually, he’s been beaten until he fell off of it. And, if he is legally culpable, the authorities will have an easy time finding him.
Failure is apparent. Let it go at that. All of the spin-doctoring in the world won’t change that, and besides, Covenant Life is apparently hemorrhaging red ink, which cannot last long.
Let the man pass from the stage. There are plenty of spin-doctors to whip between now and doomsday.