We’re still here
July 16, 2016 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Many have asked….
Kris and I are still here, albeit not as engaged with the SGM (or whatever it calls itself today) mess. If we choose to do away with this little section of the innernet, I plan on archiving all posts and comments in a tidy (huge?) collection and will make it available.
Until that time comes, feel free to keep talking.
Guy
Kris
I can understand your no longer being as engaged. After all that was exposed and how so many both within and outside of SGM turned a blind eye to it or at least trivialized it one can wonder what else can be done exposure wise. All one can do is sit back and wait for God’s judgment whether this jusgment happens in this life or a future one.
Sadly, I believe God’s judgment will not only be on CJ et al but, on the pack of Big Dogs who have been defending him, throughout.
Shame on all of them!
Thanks Kris and Guy; you will always be included on my short list of spiritual heroes.
In some ways the Big Dogs are worse than C.J. Mahaney. I say this because it easy to not see your own sin but these Big Dogs should have easily been able to see Mahaney’s sin. A shame they chose not to.
In addition to all the ministry, friendship, comfort and support our family has received from Kris & Guy and so many others here, one clear and definitive service has been that the celebrity or famousness of those other esteemed national leaders has been exposed as a toxic mess, and that NO man should be celebrated as “above” or “more” than the rest of us who enjoy the Grace of God.
I’m sure that was never part of what was intended to be offered but I am thankful that there is no longer a pedestal of any kind in my heart or mind for any man, or human. Respect and honor should always be given but not “celebrity status”. I will carry this adjusted attitude for the rest of my life and I’m thankful for it.
Defended said, “NO man should be celebrated as “above” or “more” than the rest of us who enjoy the Grace of God.”
AMEN! (And hi, Defended!)
‘Pedestal-Free Pastors’…great description for the kind of pastors we have now, compared to the ones we at CLC.
If your pastor does not shy away from praise, you should stop praising them immediately. Better yet, find a church that encourages true humility, not the kind described in CJ. Mahaney’s mini-‘book’, of sermon compilations.
Many thanks, Kris and Guy.
I have been edified and blessed here, and learned so much and been challenged in my thinking and my heart attitudes. I am very grateful for all the posters here over the years; together you have shared so much wisdom.
My personal take on things for years has been that God was after more than just SGM, God was trying to say something to the Reformed big dogs with the exposures that have come forth. I can understand them- here you have Mahaney with dozens of churches, not just one church, and he says that we are no longer going to be Arminian, we are going to be Reformed, and voila, everybody starts reading Calvinist books, tens of thousands of obedient sheep. Yeah, it looks impressive if you don’t see the cult control and fear operating.
I kept thinking that as lies have been exposed and so much wrongdoing, they would finally admit something was wrong. I’ve been praying for years. Carl Trueman was on the original panel that decided CJ just had normal human sin and the blackmail was a moment of human anger, and he exonerated CJ. I don’t think Trueman knew the A’s had gotten legal advice and were told not to do it and it was not a brief flash of anger.
Finally this year, we had Trueman and his buddy Pruitt speaking to Together for the Gospel in as fair and merciful a manner as you could ask, that CJ should not be speaking. Did they get anywhere? No.
I know CCEF was confronted with the facts about Dave Harvey. Did it do any good? No, he was a featured speaker at the spring conference .
There are 66 books in the bible with topics to talk about. CJ chose to talk about Job and compare himself to Job suffering from his critics. Harvey chose to speak about suffering pastors, and how pastors suffer when people leave their church.
Really? How can people not see through this?
Up until this spring I kept hoping and praying and getting the sense that God was merciful and patient and forbearing with these national leaders. But ever since the two conferences, the way they ignored truth (Trueman is or was dean of the seminary Harvey went to) has left me thinking it’s all over in a way. I feel like the purpose of all the blogging has been accomplished, there is no more to say, and people have made their decision to go with the big names and kick the victims to the curb.
Anybody new who wants to read up on the subject can find everything they need to know online. If they want to escape SGM, the facts are everywhere. I will add that Todd Wilhelm’s “Thou Art The Man” blog (the man being Mahaney) is a fine resource if anybody ever reads this post looking for information. You don’t have to scroll through a long conversation with hundreds of posters but can get the more succinct version at his blog. He will probably keep it going even if this forum closes, and people can comment, so maybe we’ll see each other over there some day.
Anyway, I still check this site because I like everybody and look forward to meeting you in heaven some day. I have prayed for so many people who posted here, too many to list. But as far as thinking this site will bring about what many of us hoped for, I no longer expect that. Many leaders have hardened their hearts, shut their eyes, and chosen delusion.
I think it is possible God may judge America in our lifetimes. We could see nuclear bombs, plagues, natural disasters, economic collapse, any number of things. I want to spend the rest of my life in prayer and fellowship with ordinary decent Christians, get close to God, and be faithful in prayer. I think the “anointing”, for lack of a better word, is going to leave SGM if it hasn’t already, as well as the big dogs ministries. I think when God shakes, a lot of the crap built on sand will crumble. We can be sure that God is just.
Woe to those who make a little child stumble. Better to tie a cement brink around your neck and be thrown into the sea. Woe to all those who ignored the cry of the sexually abused people in SGM. God have mercy on your pathetic souls.
Thanks for your thoughts 5years.
I think we will see a greatly diminished SGC organization once CJ, Gary, Bob K. and others retire. here are really few others to carry the baton and extend their influence.
Brent posted an update on Morales conviction. According to his post some of the convictions were overturned on appeal:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/three-of-seven-guilty-verdicts-against-sex-abuser-nathaniel.html
When I found ( was led to) this site I read for hour after hour night after night. It was shocking to say the least, all this had been going on in my church? for years? I was told that XXX had decided to leave, not that he had been thrown out and then threatened if he talked. And I believed it. I thought I knew what to look for, I thought I had my family in a good place. how could I have been so blind? The more I looked, here and elsewhere, the deeper the corruption went. Oh not just on line I took off my “church glasses” and started looking at people and policy with the the same cold wary regard I once reserved for used car salesmen and people running for public office. Damm! but I had been a fool. I had been played by some very slick, very practiced shysters. Most of my close friends were just as shocked and angry as I was. Some few sadly just keep on playing the three monkeys ” See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” Many of you here were a great help to me in those dark nights. I cant thank you enough! I still lurk here now and then, just to see how my brothers and sisters are doing. Some I am pretty sure I could put a name to, others I have not a clue who you are. But no matter. Brother you are all the same. As for me and my house, I am still having having problems walking into a church building. I know God still has work for me to do yet, but I have no idea what or where. Some of my children were very much into the “clc life” worthy, plays, 10:31, csb, parking, set up crews etc. Now I think it would take a team of horses to drag them back in. very angry, very bitter. One was for a short time working for clc. when the last straw came last year he publicly and loudly called them out on it, threw the keys to the building at their feet, told them ( in a semi polite way) to go to hell, and walked out. I guess that is the modern shaking dust off your feet.
I hope folks are super honest on their new blog and with their new Senior Pastor. Honesty is the best way to make that church healthy.
I’m still here as well. Deep appreciation for Kris, Guy, Jim, Carole and so many on here.
CJ … “He is a self-made man and worships his creator”
I guess I thought CJ would see the error of his ways and repent and peace and harmony and justice would rule. I thought the other pastors I respected that went to Louisville would step away from him and stand up for righteousness. And holy justice would prevail.
But, after Together for the Gospel and CJ subsequently preaching on “protecting your pastor” because “they are keeping watch over your souls” when utter destruction occurred in his wake at CLC, screw it. Very unlikely I will trust a church again. And almost EVERYONE at CLC I have spoken to has said they same thing.
The children we homeschool and took parenting classes for and trained and sacrificed and purchased thousands of dollars worth of books for have denounced their faith because of his arrogance.
If some of us were not abused before, we are now. And talk about millstones…
“The children we homeschool and took parenting classes for and trained and sacrificed and purchased thousands of dollars worth of books for have denounced their faith because of his arrogance.”
I understand the frustration and sadness that we have all experienced….. But if we find that we got poor results from our SGM experience…. I would think that we share in the blame. God will hold CJ responsible, no doubt, but many of us drank the Kool Aid all at once when we should have been sipping it.
I’ve learned a few things in life that I believe are profound …
1). History repeats itself because the passions of man NEVER change. … From the fall of Adam to today, man’s passions are self serving. Whether it be in governments, work or, unfortunately, church, people will ALWAYS choose what is best for THEM. This is why it’s important to find a church where the Holy Spirit leads. He won’t disappoint. CJ and the rest have all fallen to the traps of the devil. They won’t change and repent. I learned that long ago.
2). The Eagles will never win a Super Bowl in my lifetime. I’m just convinced of it …
Sick with Worry, I agree with you. One of the things that surprised me was how I was overwhelmed by my own culpability back in 2011 when my eyes were opened to the truth. It was like I knew it all along but had chosen and actually made an effort to ignore it and then all of a sudden it was crystal clear.
I chose to worship those men. I chose to look down on those who weren’t part of SGM as spiritually inferior. I chose to, without love, hold accountable those struggling with sin. On and on. It was all under the guise of “taking my faith seriously”. After all, the pastors were so humble. How could you not admire them? Everyone here is so serious about their faith. We really are better. How many times did we arrogantly agree with Kenneth when he said, “Well, those folks don’t have the teaching we have” when referring to Christians outside SGM.
The self-justification and self-deception was rampant. It is amazing the number of people I have talked to who have had a similar revelation when they realized the truth. I would go as far as to say that, in my opinion, one sign that your blinders are really off is when you have a clear picture of your own culpability.
Obviously, that does not absolve the leadership but I agree that the problem is as much with those allowing themselves to be lead as with those doing the leading. That is why a few of us called for a “solemn assembly” back in 2011 but our requests were ignored.
Somewhereintime, I have been waiting for the Eagles to win the Super Bowl since 1975. As my kids grew up and became fans, I tried to explain but they had to learn the torment for themselves.
There is an article in the Washington Post today commenting on I Kissed Dating Goodbye. In case anyone is interested, please see the link below:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/07/27/as-a-young-evangelical-i-believed-a-bestselling-book-that-warned-me-to-stay-pure-until-marriage-i-still-have-a-stain-on-my-heart/?hpid=hp_rhp-more-top-stories_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
Pete Berry said:
If nothing else you need to ask the question of how you could be and stay in such deception for a period of time. If not you just might fall into the same deception.
You mentioned what Kenneth Maresco use to say about having better teaching. Has Kenneth ever confessed doing anything wrong and contributing to this deception?
Steve240,
Kenneth was a disciple of Larry T. In that way, he differed from other CLC pastors. He was also more educated than most of the staff. He did not approve of the busting, pecking-order behavior among the leadership. I cannot remember ever seeing him participate in that and I know one case where he publicly disagreed with another pastor about it. He used to make quite a few references to ‘manliness’ so, fear of feminine dress and behavior was one thing he shared with CJ. He also got involved a little more than most in the process of finding mates for his sons. Ensuring that his sons were heterosexual and married as early as possible, seemed to be priorities for him.
After all was said and done, he was visibly grieved that CJ had such a bad attitude that CJ broke off relating to all the CLC pastors. For some reason it seemed to take him by surprise and, Kenneth was not a happy camper in his last months at CLC. That could also mean he did not agree with bringing on PJ Smythe. Who knows, he may have wanted the lead position himself?
All in all, Kenneth seemed to agree with much of the structure and teaching at CLC, and we never heard him repent personally, only in the vague ways that the pastoral team shared at a meeting where they admitted some things were not done correctly at CLC.
Persona
Thanks for the response. I also remember hearing Kenneth was one of the first persons to contact Larry after reading that C.J. Mahaney had blackmailed Larry.
It is sad that all of the CLC pastors gave a pretty sad and half hearted apology and little if any real confession and repentance for their involvement in how things were done wrongly. With that being the case it is really no surprise that things haven’t changed at CLC.
You stated “CJ broke off relating to al CLC pastors.” Was this what happened after the documents came out and CLC pastors were starting to hold CJ accountable or was this something before the documents?
Steve240 I understand that CJ broke off relations with them after he moved to Louisville which was before the docs were released, I believe.
Persona
The document release (which happened 7/2011) and CLC pastors starting to question Mahaney lead to Mahaney (picking up his toys) and relocating SGM headquarters to Louisville under the guise of moving to Louisvie supposedly saving SGM money. It was touted as “saving money” even though SGM already had a paid for office as part of the CLC building (SGM just had to pay their share of maintenance).
Steve240 Sorry but, I am beginning to loose track of events. I guess the docs surfaced and then CJ moved to KY. So, he may have been ashamed and embarrassed and did not feel the backing of the men he left behind. Who knows why he feels the way he does. But, he did seem to feel betrayed by Josh and the others. I think of it as lack of transparency for more than 30 years but, CJ only seemed to lack transparency to the flock. All the leadership and SGM staff knew full-well what he was made of and covered him well for decades.
Pete Berry- excellent post. We adults can’t blame shift, we chose to join in the arrogance.
I’ve posted this before, but thought I’d give it a repeat:
http://stevecrosby.org/spiritual-abuse/spiritual-abuse-recovery-2
snips: ” I have dealt with literally hundreds of people who have experienced spiritual abuse in unhealthy church environments. I am very sympathetic to their pain and have my own hair-curling horror stories I could tell of the things that have been done to me, my wife, and my children by “leaders” in the name of Jesus. I GET IT.
However, I’ve noticed a difference between those who are quickly restored to spiritual health, and those who often remain in reactionary woundedness for years or decades. Those who recover quickly admit that there was something broken or unwhole in themselves that was a “hook” for controllers and abusers to play on. They do not just blame the perpetrators of the injustice against them. Healthy, whole, functional, adults–especially fully resourced believers (2 Pet. 1:3)–are not easy to control, and less likely to be victims of spiritual abuse.
…….
People will allow themselves to be violated by controlling leaders in exchange for those leaders giving them a sense of false identity and status with something that has the appearance of success, notoriety, and superiority. By belonging to mighty apostle/prophet/teacher so-and-so’s “world changing,” “miracle producing,” “seventh-heaven,” “doctrinally pure,” “city-taking” “soul winning,” “open portal” “last-day revival,” “overcoming,” “man-child,” “Zadok priesthood,” “Joshua Generation,” of restored Davidic worshiper Ministries International, we can feel just a wee bit superior to others: We have a “name” that others do not.
A psychological swap is made: the leader gets sycophantic followers, and the followers get a sense of name, identity, and status from a person or an organization that should come from Christ alone. It’s all an unholy psychological transaction that can be dressed up in all kinds of great sounding Bible-lingo and proof texts.”
The entire essay is good. I hope people will click the link.
5yearsinPDI
That is good information. We have to see what it was about us that lead us to this. If we don’t then we might fall into the same trap again. I imagine this explains why so many people were so u non questioning at CLC and SGM.
So I was cleaning out a closet and behind a box was a cassette tape remember those? Hmm wonder what could be on here?
The label says Pastoral Qualifications by ( wait for it) C J Mahaney
I showed it to my children who just burst out laughing.
One said ” I guess I shouldn’t laugh, but the irony is just sickening ”
Yep, I can’t decide if I should toss it , or listen and take notes, Not sure if I can do that without punching a wall or something.
That is I’d I still have a tape player
:)
Battered but unbroken
I bet that would be nauseating listen to C.J. Mahaney teach on pastoral qualifications. I felt that way when Mahaney talked on the priority of gospel unity:
https://sgmanalysis.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/c-j-mahaney-teaches-on-the-priority-of-gospel-unity-a-priority-for-only-for-others-but-not-c-j-mahaney/
I would be curious to hear what Mahaney talks about children of leaders. Did the sin of a leader’s child disqualify a leader? If so what he say doesabout pot smoking or the recent DUI that Chad Mahaney was recently charged with?
The database says CLC preached the message that Battered found at CLC on 2/18/2001, in case anyone is curious.
Thanks “battered but unbroken” and Todd Wilhelm for reminding us of Chad Mahaney’s sins. How about the Mahaney girls? Anything on them?
Persona,
CJ and the old pastors became unhappy with Josh Harris when he began investigating the stories of victims by inviting them to his house in December and January (because they couldn’t all fit in one meeting). They believed he was entertaining gossip by seeking to care for victims who were giving the safety of speaking in front of other witnesses instead of behind closed doors in offices.
Josh made apologies to the congregation around May for abusive practices at CLC. They were furious…primarily because the abuse all occurred under their watch.
The documents came out end of June/early July.
The family meeting happened where CJ apologized and was escorted out. Josh admitted he was aggravated. He allowed people to speak before an open mic in the presence of witnesses…which WAS THE ONLY SAFE WAY THEY COULD EVER SPEAK.
SGM blew up that week and Josh resigned from the board.
CJ and family went on vacation and pondered their future and never returned after the first family meeting.
Just saying…thanks for the review.
I agree with your assessment about CJ becoming offended that Josh allowed the members to share grievances at his home. I didn’t attend any of those meetings since they were tightly controlled and invitation only, as usual at CLC. It also seemed to me that the Pastors may have mainly trying to find out who had possible cause to sue the church down the road. But, I hope the pastors cared more for those members than that.
I think Kenneth made the mistake of believing CJ when he said he had repented and was willing to stick around. I remember Josh telling the congregation that he thought CJ would agree to work things out.
I also heard from someone who had contact with CJ during the first weeks he was on his leave of absence, that he and his son-in-laws were none too happy with the Family Meetings with open mics, etc. But, we had one foot out the door by then.
All those events are really beginning to fade now that we have built a whole new life. I guess that’s a good thing. We all did our best to scold those that needed scolding and warn those who needed warning and now they are all responsible for what they do with it.
I attended all three meetings at Josh’s house – took extensive notes. BTW the invitation to attend was broadcast widely so they were not “invitation only”.
Penny said “How about the Mahaney girls? Anything on them?”…. Seriously? As far as I can tell, SGM’s hypocrisy was that they produced only average kids as a whole. The sarcastic side of me would think that with all their so-called perfect teaching in theology that they would’ve produced super Godly kids!! It is a stretch to say that they produced worse than average kids. CJ had what…. Four kids? One of them screwed up and CJ applied a different standard to his own family…. Fair game. I would think we are lowering ourselves to their level of sin sniffing if we go after his daughters. Haven’t we learned anything?? They just seem like they are living out their lives. However odd we may think it is.
This is an old post about the Mahaney girls but still quire applicable to them:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2008/08/13/the-mahaney-ladies-and-their-truman-show/
Though I haven’t read their blog for a while.
I drive past Sovereign Grace Church in Fairfax at least once a week and I noticed the other day they’d changed their name to Redeeming Grace Church. Anyone know anything about this?
Hoi, in regard to the meetings at Joshua’s house, it is true that it was broadly announced that they were to happen. But, we were also told at the time that only so many folks could fit into his house. The meeting size was limited so not everyone who wanted to attend could actually attend. The result was, there were a lot of folks that were not allowed to attend. To me, that is a definition of ‘invitation only.’ even though they announced the events were happening.
Reader
You can read all about the name change here:
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/08/04/sinfully-craving-a-new-church-name-sovereign-grace-fairfax-becomes-redeeming-grace-church/
In summary I think SGC Fairfax changed its name since it is no longer part of SGM and perhaps wanted to get away from that association.
Ha – speaking of ex (and current?) SGM/SGC churches called “Redeeming Grace…” I see Steve Shank spoke at Redeeming Grace Church in Franklin, TN on July 31, 2016. I don’t know the history of this church, if it is still SGC or what, but it has other pastors who went through the SGC Pastor’s so-called College. Just fyi…
http://rgcnashville.com/sermons
OutThere
Thanks for sharing the information. Interesting Shank is speaking there but I seem to recall him moving to the Nashville area so make sense.
On the link you provided there is a link you can click on to learn the history of the church. It was a plant from SGM Knoxville TN. Also, if you look on the SGM website they show Redeeming Grace being an SGM Church.
I recall we discussed this church “plant” on here a while back. It was pointed out that this was a typical SGM plant where they place churches in relatively affluent areas and where there typically is already a number of healthy churches (not saying SGM churches are typically “health”). SGM typically does this vs. plant churches in poorer areas and/or in areas that are need of churches.
OutThere
Thanks for sharing the information. Interesting Shank is speaking there but I seem to recall him moving to the Nashville area so make sense.
On the link you provided there is a link you can click on to learn the history of the church. It was a plant from SGM Knoxville TN. Also, if you look on the SGM website they show Redeeming Grace being an SGM Church.
I recall we discussed this church “plant” on here a while back. It was pointed out that this was a typical SGM plant where they place churches in relatively affluent areas and where there typically is already a number of healthy churches (not saying SGM churches are typically “health”). SGM typically does this vs. plant churches in poorer areas and/or in areas that are need of churches.
I just ‘found’ the latest post today, don’t know how I missed it before now. It’s good to see many of the old faithfuls commenting. I haven’t attended a church for nearly 5 years, but have been in fellowship with other believers. I agree with 5yrs comment… “I want to spend the rest of my life in prayer and fellowship with ordinary decent Christians, get close to God, and be faithful in prayer.” And I’ll probably check in here almost every day.
Thanks, Kris and Guy.
Interesting article about abuse and church. http://heidelblog.net/2016/08/on-disciplining-abusers-and-protecting-the-sheep/#st_refDomain=t.co&st_refQuery=/0MIQnC7JBi
Author is a Presbyterian pastor and professor at Westminster. Wish sgm followed the instruction.
Thank you, Kris and Guy, for maintaining the blog and keeping it going. These days, I only check in once a month or so. It has become fairly CLC-centered, which is fine, but doesn’t necessarily apply to me. But the information contained in the zillions of posts here is still important – for though many have put their SGM past in perspective and have moved on, there are those who are just now beginning to heal.
I remember a friend whose tale of spiritual abuse under the guise of marriage counseling is gut-wrenching. Even recently, she still thought of her actions as being ‘under the protection of spiritual covering.’
A quick list of things of some of the horrible things she was told:
-You can’t tell anyone about your husband’s abusive behavior because that dishonors him.
-You can’t go to a different ‘care group’ than your husband.
-You can’t tell anyone that he has left you and abandoned you financially because it would dishonor him.
-Since you have involved secular authorities, we cannot help you, because you are now under law, not under grace, and no longer under our covering.
-What could you have done to keep your husband from becoming so angry? What are your sins that caused his abusive behavior?
-We can’t help you financially unless you take a ‘regular’ job and stop cleaning houses (which allowed a higher hourly amount and she didn’t have to put 4 kids in financially prohibitive childcare) because we don’t fund people’s businesses.
At one point, they sent a letter to either our home group or the entire church, I’m not sure which, cautioning us to not listen to either the husband or the wife. (I wish I still had that letter — I’d love to know if she could sue for defamation of character, etc.) She didn’t know about that letter till I told her, some fifteen years later.
One night, she ran from an abusive situation, in her nightgown, barely clothed, and drove to her homegroup leader’s house with a 6-year-old child in tow, for help and refuge. She received none, for the leader was under their control.
She is remarkably forgiving, and her faith has increased through the trial, but that doesn’t make what they did any less wrong.
As sad and wrong and incomprehensible that this happened to even one person, it’s stunning to realize that this horror was perpetuated upon numerous families. Bad enough that this happened to adults — but child after child after child was damaged and marginalized by the arrogant actions of so-called leaders who had no education or ability to provide marriage counseling.
The millstone is around their necks. But the grace of God is available to all of us, and I hope that before it’s all over and done with, they will repent and make some kind of move to apologize to those they damaged.
Thanks to all who have posted here through the years, and to those who continue to write such clear and thoughtful messages. What you have contributed is important.
–
NIckname
What you shared really wouldn’t surprise me. I remember the discussions about a wife in VA Beach area whose husband was doing some type of domestic violence to her. The leaders of that SGM Church threatened this wife with church discipline if she left her abusive husband.
At least in that case there were some couples that took this poor woman’s side who sadly also came under attack by church leaders. Who were these couples to question leadership? Just unreal.
I wonder if any of these leaders ever truly go to God in prayer asking Him to reveal their sins or even ask God if their actions are pleasing to Him. Based on these actions it appears very rarely.
Steve 240,
Here’s a link to Esther’s Story from “The Wayback Machine”
https://web.archive.org/web/20090129113953/http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/
I’ve heard that that church (Chesapeake) has changed. Maybe someone can confirm this.
N.S.L.B.
Interesting announcement and typical SGM. Pull a pastor from a recent church plant to Philly to aid and abed the corruption there. https://ne.gracecityphilly.com/pastoral-transition-announcement/
The people at McConnell’s church probably don’t realize this has likely been in the works for months and they gave likely gone all out to hide it from the church. Prater and Harvey hid it from the local board leadership when he knew For about a year they were taking Prater out (and at the expense of) the Pittsburgh church.
Either they are covering up another scandal or preparing to move Jarrod to SGM FT, maybe to replace Mark.
Philadelphia’s ills made CLC look healthy, it’s just that Harvey did a better job concealing it… until he didn’t.
Jenn, I’m not saying there might be a cover-up or more than one, here. And, you are probably pretty good at sniffing out corruption. But, do you think they just can’t afford such a big staff in Pittsburgh? SGC Church staffs are huge compared to other congregations. And, the SGC tsunami as well as the recession, did hit some churches hard.
So, I wonder what’s up with the one (and only) pastor at Covenant Community Church in West Philly. Maybe they’re growing and he needs help.
I actually misread it – the first read led me to believe they were going to CovFel. They are just relocating them. As a matter of fact, relocating 2 pastors and wives. When was the last time something like this happened hen there wasn’t a scandal? As a matter of fact, I think it’s entirely possible that Prater was brought back to Philly, originally, to help cover up the issues in DH’s personal life.
One thing you can almost be sure of. Congregants are probably not getting the truth and the leaders are spinning it to themselves as either protecting an elder or serving the congregation.
(In my opinion) the announcement sounds suspicious because (a) it was not full of exclamations regarding how wonderful God’s plans are when “transitions” are welcome (or, correspondingly, bittersweet exclamations of how much those who are moving will be missed); and (b) the church where they will move has announced nothing. But maybe it’s as simple as the PR is not as good as it used to be…
Out There – You nailed it. When was the last time a church got 2 new pastors that it did not involve some type of scandal in SGM?
There is no mention of Andrew Kalvelage in the announcement. He is the lead pastor at Covenant Community Church.
https://www.facebook.com/andrewandchristina.kalvelage?fref=ts
I assume Ian McConnell will be replacing him. Something must be wrong. Ian would not make this move otherwise. If it were for “the sake of the mission,” they would have said so in the announcement.
Someone should tape the “questions and extended discussion” on Sept. 11.
Pastoral Transition Announcement
by Greg Dietrich | Aug 28, 2016
https://ne.gracecityphilly.com/pastoral-transition-announcement/
At a Family Meeting on August 28, 2016, the pastoral team of Grace City Church of the Northeast announced how God has led to send Ian & Rachel McConnell along with Greg & Michelle Dietrich to serve the Sovereign Grace congregation of Covenant Community Church in West Philadelphia. They will be sent from GCC of the Northeast on October 9, 2016.
Greg presently serves as the Pastor for Administration and Operations. Ian has served as the Pastor for Preaching and Vision for the past 11 years and upon his transition, Rob Chisholm will become the new Lead Pastor. Rob has served as Pastor for Music and Spiritual Formation at Grace City Church of the Northeast since 2007.
A follow-up Family Meeting for questions and extended discussion has been scheduled for Sunday, September 11 at 6 pm. If you have questions you would like answered; please feel free to send them to info@gracecityphilly.com.
They have a ‘pastor for music and spiritual formation.’ What the heck, pray tell, is spiritual formation?
Nickname…another name for religious indoctrination?
quizzler
Thanks for sharing the link about Esther’s story. It is good to see that there was some type of repentance by the leadership but am doubtful of how much confession they really did (like to the whole church). For leaders to insist that a wife stay in an abusive situation or be threatened with church discipline shows just how much of a vacuum a lot of these SGM Leaders were in and I am sure many still are.
West Philly pastor is going to Marlton, NJ church. Newer pastor at Marlton moving to West Philly church. I’ve been told that west philly pastor was “not gifted” to be a senior pastor and will now go sit under Warren Boetcher in Marlton.
Problem is that the guy leaving Marlton is well liked and wasn’t trained in the SGM world. Members are upset.
Who cares!
Was the “not gifted” pastor an original pastor at West Philly? Was he previously SGM or were they adopted? Is this one of those shankings where they remove an original pastor and replace him with a company man?
Good question.
Just Saying said, “Is this one of those shankings where they remove an original pastor and replace him with a company man?”
That’s what “not gifted” means in SGM / SGC language.
The West Philly pastor is the original, and he is a PC grad. He was sent from CovFel. They were a long time finding a suitable place for the West Philly church and I think it has not been long since it started, maybe 2/3 years.
The link at Jenn Grover’s first post on Aug 30 says that 2 pastors from the NorthEast church will be ‘transitioning’ to The West Philly church. No mention is made there of the West Philly pastor nor the Marlton Church. We can only wonder, guess, and speculate as we usually do.
Somewhere, is the pastor moving, Jason Reyes?
Nope… Staying.
Thanks, Somewhere.
Mahaney and Piper – Together Again!
A brief blog article highlighting the lack of concern Piper has for victims of sexual abuse in the Sovereign Grace denomination.
Watch the youtube video at the end of the post. A powerful testimony by a woman who was abuse by a pastor.
https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/10/4665/
There has been a big debate going on in Reformed theology land for weeks now, about the Piper/Grudem/manyothermen position on relationships within the Trinity and how the son and Father relate.
Too complicated to go into in detail, but the gist of it is that one side thinks marriage represents the father and son and a subordinate son (Piper, Grudem, Ware, Burk, the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood). The other side (Pruitt for example, Trueman’s buddy who helped protest the T4G speaker roster with Mahaney last spring, and said CJ should NOT have been a speaker) says that they are messing with the orthodox understanding of God and one will, one nature, one essence in three persons. (You know, like a husband and wife don’t have one will and one nature so its a bad analogy.)
Both sides agree on male leadership in the home and church. So it isn’t about that, but more about God and how we understand the trinity, and is the trinity a model for marriage or not.
I read enough to see that this fight will never end. I personally think Pruitt and his buddies are in the right. Before this happened I assumed Grudem was right and never gave it another thought. But, marriage is clearly presented in scripture as Christ and the church, not the Father and son, and when you read about what the church fathers said about the trinity, this Grudem view is highly questionable. It is not necessary anyway, and we need to make Christ and the church the model for husband and wives as Paul taught.
I say all this to put this link in context. Todd Pruitt posted another theology rebuttal to one of the Big Dog crowd, and the response was so mob like he took it down.
http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/another-follow-up-on-my-post-concerning-denny-burks-article#.V9S0WYYrLNO
“I learned a lesson today. It was a lesson I was warned of: Be very careful about taking on men with powerful friends. After being bombarded well into the night by angry emails accusing me of everything but the Kennedy assassination I decided that the satisfaction of critiquing a problematic article was not worth it.
Now, none of Denny’s correspondence with me was inappropriate in any way. I wish however that I could say the same thing about his defenders.
If any of the men from various organizations who expressed to me their concerns about Denny’s article want to give it a try, my blessings. But some of you will wind up in some truly hot water if you do.
I grieve over the state of modern reformed(ish) evangelicalism. Quite frankly it looks more and more like a racket to me. Power has been concentrated in the hands of a very few and they all happen to be friends. Mess with one of their family and it’s only a matter of time before Clemenza is sent out searching for you.
Anyway, at least I got to fit in a Godfather reference.”
My opinion is that he first got on the wrong side of the racket back when he protested Mahaney at T4G. (May God bless him, reward him, and bring the riches of Christ into his life for taking sides with the sex abuse victims).
Things have gotten worse folks. A guy with the stature and understanding of Pruitt calling the Big Dog crowd a racket is serious.
5YearsinPDI
Thanks for sharing this about how Pruitt was basically attacked for daring to question one the theology of some top leaders in the their group. How sad. It sounds like a lot of people don’t want to think for themselves in that circle and are willing to attack any who question the circle’s various popes they have.
You would see something similar within SGM/CLC if you disagreed with their part line and didn’t toe the line as they say.
Steve, in case I wasn’t clear, this is very related to SGM. The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood includes Mahaney on the Council ( http://cbmw.org/about/council-members/) and Purswell on the board. The T4G guys ( Duncan, Mohler, etc) are all part. The mailing address is in Mecca, er, Louisville.
I don’t have a problem as far as my admittedly limited knowledge goes with the CBMW vision and mission. I hold to the old fashioned position that women are not to be church elders nor pastors, and husbands are the head of the home. How that works out would be real different for me and SGM (as my hubby would comment, SGM told him to disciple his wife like I was his child; he finds that ridiculous and is grateful for our equality of discussion and walking with the Lord), but I agree with the CBMW basic premise, I am not an egalitarian feminist. As I recall there have been charges that CBMW indirectly or directly support abusive husbands but I don’t know for sure. Certainly SGM did.
The new President is Denny Burk, and apparently Pruitt took issue with what he wrote about the trinity. CBMW says this in their statement:
“Ephesians 5 calls husbands and wives to relate to one another as a picture of Christ and the church. The picture involves the humble, sacrificial leadership of the husband and the joyful, intelligent submission to that leadership by the wife.”
That’s fine. But some of the CBMW have been on a roll that the marriage picture is God the Father and God the son, with the father like a husband and the wife like the son. Uh oh. Not trinitarian.
We all, men and women, are to humble ourselves like Jesus in Phillippians 2. Not just wives to husbands. The actions of Jesus are a model for all, husbands and wives both. Wives submitting is a biblical teaching, but it reflects the church to Christ, not the son to the father. God is one essence, one nature, one will, one being in three persons with varied workings but the same one God. God is not like a husband and wife.
So now we have the old fashioned Reformed guys like Pruitt and Trueman standing up to the more neoCalvinist crowd that you just can’t do this to the trinity and God. They are using serious words like error and heresy. This was settled at the council of Nicea and the Nicene creed. This is big. This is huge.
I don’t know which guys are in the “racket” Pruitt refers to. Not Burk according to him. We could only speculate who wrote to him. Were any of them SGM, or big name celebrity guys? It was angry accusing letters, not thoughtful theological discussion.
God is really trying to shake up this group. They shut their ears to the sex abuse scandal in SGM, and now there are charges of error and heresy about a serious matter, and they just get angry and close ranks to protect their own. It is “us and them”, not truth and error. Surely not all of them, how would I know, so I can’t make any associations. We don’t see public apologies on this, not yet, or even admitting there is valid concern. Nope, just attack the dissent apparently. One hopes for a public statement soon….but I hoped in vain for a genuine apology about SGM and the bungled inept sex abuse pastoral failures.
I find it all interesting, and do think the Lord is trying hard to shake up a major problem out there.
5YearsinPDI said:
Thanks for the clarification. The saddest part IMO is that this was as you say “angry accusing letters, not thoughtful theological discussion.” How sad.
Isn’t that the way though when you know you can’t defend what you say or at least when there might be enough scripture to question what you are saying rather than debate and discuss you accuse.
Groups like this depend on most of the people not questioning what those “above” them in the food chain do IMO. If nothing else they don’t want someone questioning a top leader. Much of that could bring down an entire organization.
Carl has a good post about it today, and you can read into it why CJ and SGM were defended so much by these people, being the true christian hope against liberalism is their identity, and they cannot have their movement critiqued, even if the critiques are right.
http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/postcards-from-palookaville/all-about-identity?utm_content=buffer341ac&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer#.V9aYflsrKUl
Wow pres, great article, thanks.
I really identified with this: “The problem is deeper. It is one of identity. So it is not just those with money or platform to lose who become angry with the critics. It is everyone to whom these groups give a sense of belonging.”
I used to feel years ago that I “belonged” to the Gospel Coalition, they were my people. Reformed doctrine with a broad platform including Baptists and non cessationists, and without the stricter sabbath rules you find in some R groups.
I thought at first they just didn’t see the shepherding errors with SGM. But as time went by and the stories broke, and then the Driscoll saga, I had to reluctantly face that something was really wrong. It was hard for me, given the high quality of past teaching I’ve heard from Piper, Duncan, Carson, Grudem, etc. Watching CCEF enable some of the SGM guys was depressing for sure. And I lost more than looking up to celebs, I lost the group I belonged to in my heart.
Its worth it in the long run. And again, I am grateful to the many posters here who helped me face some hard truths. The bible is alive and rich for me, my fellowship is genuine, my prayer life a treasure, my husband is so close. But it wasn’t easy getting out of the blindness.
“The language of gospel piety always drips very easily in public from the lips of those who know that the iron fists of the Machine are quietly crushing critical windpipes off camera.”- from the article mentioned above.
Amen and truth.
5 Years, I’ve mentioned on here several times how much I have seen you change and grow and how impressed I am with your willingness to be open about that chance and essentially say, “Hey, I got a bunch of things wrong.” So I won’t go on too much about it now but I don’t think I have ever told you how your example (and legit humility about talking about it) has given me faith and hope for several others, both those who come here and people I know in the real world, that God can lift the veil from their eyes and show them more of God and HIS truth, even when they are SURE they are right. Thank you for that, Friend.
Above, 5 Years said, “And I lost more than looking up to celebs, I lost the group I belonged to in my heart.”
Oh, how I rejoice that you lost your identity in that group! I know it was hard and painful and breaking and I don’t rejoice in how hard it was but I rejoice because I think God wanted your identity to not be with the “good guys” in the white hats who seemingly had all their theology together and did things right but I think He wanted your identity (and my identity and every other person’s identities) with the broken, the lost, the hurting, the sheep led astray, those who aren’t sure of much else other than this perfect God maybe loves them and maybe, just maybe, He even loved us imperfect people enough to send His own son to die and that is enough to know. And that the greatest commandment is to LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul and the second greatest is like it, to love your neighbor as your self.
After identifying with that and those people, why close our ranks any further? Why not love and identify with those who may be confused or wandering or broken and busted on the side of the road or alone in the desert? That is who He identified himself with, the prostitutes and the sinners. Why should we ever strive to be “better” than His example? He loved so that we could love, too.
Pruitt is known for making wild and even bizarre accusations. For example, in his interaction with readers on The Wartburg Watch back in April. He is easily offended and extremely sensitive to correction. That was obvious to all. Later, he went on FB and Tweeter and slandered TWW and exalted himself. I plan to write about it.
I suspect he took down his post concerning Denny Burke because the correction he received was accurate and legitimate and therefore put him in a bad light but properly so.
I highly doubt his comment, “After being bombarded well into the night by angry emails accusing me of everything but the Kennedy assassination I decided that the satisfaction of critiquing a problematic article was not worth it.”
First, I think Pruitt is likely making this up or greatly exaggerating. I’d like to see these “angry emails accusing me of everything but the Kennedy assassination.” I doubt they exist. This is typical of Pruitt in my experience. He makes these kind of statements but doesn’t give any proof or when asked doesn’t provide proof.
Second, you don’t take down a post because of “angry emails.” You take down a post because you have been proven wrong and you don’t want additional people to see what you erroneously wrote – that is, if you’re proud.
stunned- thank so much for the kind words! When we get to heaven I suppose we will all realize how much we were wrong about a lot of things. We see through a glass darkly.
You are right about who we identify with, or want to identify with. I can remember sometimes 20 years ago wishing, longing, that my husband was in PDI leadership so we could fellowship with all those superior leaders. Put money in the plate every week to build the greatest churches in 2000 years. Now I just want to help out normal struggling people with a 20 dollar bill if I have it, or some kind words and a little time. Maybe part of it is just getting older…but I do think a certain cult spell operated and we got our eyes off the ones Jesus would have been ministering to. You expressed it so well, thanks.
Brent, with all due respect, I think you are jumping to conclusions without facts, and calling Pruitt a liar is a serious accusation. Sensitive is one thing, but making up his comments is another. You owe the man some charity. I’ve read some of his posts for years; he is intelligent and seems kind and caring. I never the read the one that got taken down, but you’ve no business making such accusations about his motives or claiming he lied.
Anyway, you miss the point, which is not about his character. The point is that orthodox Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ is God, one with the father (and the Holy Spirit) with one nature, one will, one purpose, one essence. Obviously the subject of the trinity is complex and intricate and one could spend months reading theology about God and the three persons and how they relate and what each one does and how they are one, one God, in three.
What has developed (actually my hubby said it started back at least 5 years ago, but the blog blow up is more recent) is that some very fine theologians and older men noticed that Grudem’s ST and the literature from the CBMW presents God in a distorted way. They present a God that appears to have two wills and two natures and two of a lot of things, by how they correlate a husband and wife with the father and Son.
Maybe they didn’t mean to, and I am sure some of it may be semantics, and when you use the word “person” or “nature” you might not mean the exact same thing as the next blog; words have to be defined. But you would think they would at the very least admit to some lack of clarity in presenting the trinity. You would think that they would humbly admit that the criticisms have at least some merit. You would think they would admit that the NT presentation of marriage is a Christ and the church metaphor, not a Father- Son metaphor, and maybe they should stick to scripture. But no, they close ranks to protect their own.
I haven’t read TWW in a long time. I found that the contempt and disdain for anybody who is a young earth creationist, thinks women elders are unscriptural, or thinks homosexuality is sin, tended to be more than I could stomach. Not sure where they are at these days. It wasn’t just various posters either, I vaguely remember a few cracks from the mods. If his interaction with readers there is anything like what I saw a few years ago, my sympathies lie with him….but to be fair I don’t know anything about it. I am sure you will inform us all when you write it up :)
Pruitt was so vocal that Mahaney should not speak at T4G that I wish you would give the guy a break. It isn’t easy to take on T4G. Anyway, gotta get to work. Hope your wife is OK and cancer free.
By the way, to clarify something from the past, I got into a debate here with a poster about Jesus being God in the flesh. The incarnation is eternal, and Jesus is forever in His resurrected body in created space and time. One day we will be with Him in our glorified bodies. (CS Lewis has some nice writings about the uniqueness of Christianity versus other religions where after death everything is only spirit. But I digress.) To deny Jesus as God in the flesh now and forever, not just for 33 years on earth, is antichrist teaching.
I mistakenly called this correct understanding of Jesus as God in the flesh forever, the eternal subordination of the son (ESS). Maybe I should have called it the eternal incarnation.
Anyway, I thought that was how the term was used, but the big debate now has the orthodox ones renouncing and criticizing “Eternal subordination of the son” because of the way it is being presented by CBMW to describe a wife submitting to her husband out of her separate will and separate nature equating to Jesus relating to the father.
I doubt one reader in ten thousand here remembers or cares what I posted a while ago. But on the off chance that the person who I argued with about ESS sees this, I wanted to clarify. Jesus is God in the flesh forever….but the father and Son do not relate to each other like a husband and wife. So I was wrong to say ESS was right based on the current blow up about what ESS is, which may or may not include the eternal incarnation but perhaps does not.
Did you fall asleep yet? :)
Still awake, 5 Years!
Jesus talked about having faith as a child. I know this isn’t an exact correlation, but for me, that’s often how i think of him; from a child’s perspective. And this is what I once found in a child’s book regarding the trinity. (Or was it something my mom told me?)
I think of God being like H2O. H2O can take three forms but it’s still H2O. It can be liquid, steam or ice.
Keeping it simple,
Stunned
I would also echo what 5 years said about this, I did read Pruitt’s post, and it was nothing that he has not said in many other posts, essentially proving, with quotes, that Denny Burke had/was also teaching ESS. Denny Burke has recently been elevated to head of CBMW, after the previous head resigned (supposedly unrelated to MOS showing he believed in ESS). CBMW and Grudem in particular have gone after anyone maligning them, and have claimed they never taught ESS except once, but then it was shown how several articles teaching it have been scrubbed from their site. This whole issue has gone back and forth, and really has now drawn sides with the mostly presbyterians, including MOS, Liam Goligher and Mark Jones, with the support of essentially all of the Patristic scholars on one side, and CBMW and Grudem on the other side. CBMW now essentially says they do not fully support ESS, but they refuse to refute it, and are just scrubbing anything that taught about it in the past (at least that is my take on this interaction). I saw that you, Brent, clearly are leaning on the CBMW side, and calling for the other side to repent, but the fact is, every patristic scholar I have seen have said that what the CBMW folks are teaching is against the Nicene creed, and specifically Athanasian council. Normally teachings against those creeds and councils are how we define heresy,and Honestly I think if anything they have not gone far enough in calling the others beliefs heretical.
Todd is stand up in general, I don’t think he should have taken it down, but I will say that TWW interchange was interesting and sad. I give him props for even posting there, and hope what he said came through, but it was sort of sad the way the interaction turned.
5yearsinPDI.
You said, “Brent, with all due respect, I think you are jumping to conclusions without facts, and calling Pruitt a liar is a serious accusation. Sensitive is one thing, but making up his comments is another. You owe the man some charity. I’ve read some of his posts for years; he is intelligent and seems kind and caring. I never the read the one that got taken down, but you’ve no business making such accusations about his motives or claiming he lied.”
I didn’t call him a liar and I didn’t claim he lied but I think it is likely he did and/or greatly exaggerated his accusations.
I said, “I highly doubt his comment, “After being bombarded well into the night by angry emails accusing me of everything but the Kennedy assassination I decided that the satisfaction of critiquing a problematic article was not worth it.” First, I think Pruitt is likely making this up or greatly exaggerating.”
I’ve come to know Pruitt and I’ve come to know he will lie and he also make things up. That is evident in TWW exchange and what followed.
He may be lying because
5yrsinPDI said, “Anyway, you miss the point, which is not about his character. The point is that orthodox Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ is God, one with the father (and the Holy Spirit) with one nature, one will, one purpose, one essence.”
I beg to differ. It is about character and theology. Not one or the other. Pruitt has distorted some of the teaching of men like Grudem, Ware and Burke. For instance, everyone in CBMW believes what you have written above. You imply otherwise. That is due to Pruitt, et al. The only point above upon which there is debate concerns the will of God in relation to the will of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each person of the Trinity is distinct. Each has a will. And yet, the three wills subsist as one will within the Godhead. How to explain that is very difficult. Just like it is very hard to explain how three distinct persons simultaneously exist as one God (Trinitarianism: one God, three Persons) but not in tripartite (Tritheism: three Gods, three Persons) and without becoming modalists (Unitarianism: one God, one Person). In both cases, we who are finite can not fully explicate the infinite. We are left with glorious mystery because an infinite God cannot be comprehensively known by us.
You say, “They present a God that appears to have two wills and two natures and two of a lot of things, by how they correlate a husband and wife with the father and Son.” Some complimentarians believe there is a biblical correlation between a husband and wife with the Father and Son based on 1 Cor 11:3, etc. None of them believe there are two natures in the Godhead. That is heretical. They believe, as does every orthodox believer, that there were two natures in the incarnate Christ. His divine nature and his human nature in hypostatic union. No one believes there are two natures in the Godhead. CBMW believes Jesus Christ is homoousios (of the same nature or essence) with the Father. Pruitt, Carl Trueman, Aimee Byrd, Liam Golligher, have misrepresented them and charged them with teaching ontological subordination (Jesus is less than the Father in being, nature or essence) when in fact they have never taught or believed in ontological subordination. Some complementarians believe and have taught functional subordination (Jesus is eternally submissive to the Father by virtue of being the Son) but that is all. Whether his subordination or submission is eternal or only temporal (during his days on earth) is a matter of debate. I think it is eternal because Jesus did not become the Son in the Incarnation. He has always been the Son and therefore happily submitted to his Father. That aside, there is no question Jesus his subject to the Father in priority (i.e., in the divine order but not nature or glory) now and for eternity future. Read 1 Cor 15:23-28. He is a submissive Son while also being co-eternal and co-glorious with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
As a non-theologian dim-witted pew sitter, I have followed this debate on the Trinity with interest. There is much I don’t understand but I found these two items quite helpful.
First is Carl Trueman being interviewed by Janet Mefferd
https://soundcloud.com/janetmefferdtoday/7-13-16-janet-mefferd-today
Next is a youtube video of a dialogue between Dr. Kevin Giles (egalitarian) & Dr. Fred Sanders (complementarian).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0_mYvbgcKE
Todd- thanks. Will look forward to a listen.
Brent….you said:
“everyone in CBMW believes what you have written above. You imply otherwise. That is due to Pruitt, et al.”
“Pruitt, Carl Trueman, Aimee Byrd, Liam Golligher, have misrepresented them”
For the sake of discussion, let us assume you are right. Let us assume their( CBMW) beliefs are completely orthodox.
People who are teaching laymen and pastoring non theologian dimwits (Todd, I would argue with your self deprecation but I am too busy posting to BD) need to be very careful with their communications and definitions and how they parse words and define them. The people who are being criticized are putting out materials for new believers, laymen, and regular pew sitters with no theological training.
Don’t get me wrong- I love Grudem’s ST and he has done a great service in making basic doctrine available to laymen. I will use Grudem as an example here, although many more are involved in the critique.
Grudem has had to go to great lengths to explain what he means to avoid miscommunication. One example is using the word “prophecy” and the gift of prophecy today. Given all the viewpoints, from saying it ceased, to the New Apostolic Reformation and their false prophets claiming to go up to the third heaven and come back with new revelation and prophecy, he can’t just use the word without precise clarification. Grudem’s section on the gifts has quite a bit of explaining, to distance himself from charismatic garbage.
The word apostle had to be defined- apparently SGM found it easier to toss it and call them regional leaders , but I don’t think they ever equated them to James and John and Paul (sure hope not).
Prayer sometimes has to be defined. I know people for whom a prayer meeting is declaring things into being, “speaking the name” as an incantation over things, pleading the blood and binding the devil. They can spend an hour without ever humbly asking God to do anything at all. What they mean by prayer is not what I would mean.
How often did you say something to your kids or wife, and they took it differently than how you meant it? This has happened to me soooo many times. I have to always take responsibility for not communicating better, instead of blaming the ones who misunderstood.
My husband works at a job that demands precise technological communication and sometimes a guy under him misunderstands, no matter how detailed and clear he thought he was. He can’t jump on the guy, he has to realize that there was room for misunderstanding and go over it again with more accurate and more precise directions. This is how mature and responsible people act when they are misunderstood.
Here we have several men with intensive theological training saying that the way the ESS crowd comes off is problematic, maybe even heretical. Instead of trying to take a long hard look at what is being communicated about God to the average person, and attempting to fix the problem, what is happening? Nasty retorts and according to “Presbyterian” above, scrubbing the past. Hillary and Bleachbit…is that really acceptable in the church? Can’t they just say they were poor communicators instead of scrubbing something? Can’t they say they did not communicate well and left room for misinterpretation? Can’t they be mature and say that what they meant and how they came off was maybe not clear for the people in the pews?
No, they can’t. So I suspect Truman, Pruitt, Golligher, etc are hitting a nail on the head.
So does it even really matter much? Trueman says this:
http://theaquilareport.com/in-the-end-it-all-comes-down-to-this/
“Tragically, it has become clear that some of the most influential evangelical theologians today do not describe God correctly. It has also become clear that they have no intention of correcting their errors. As a by-product, some of these errors have been used to enable domestic abuse.”
I believe him. He has many contacts. If this is a big deal in the biblical patriarchy movement and women are being abused by men using ESS to justify evil behavior, then it is a serious issue.
I listened to Carl Trueman on the Janet Mefferd Show and he continues to misrepresent the views of Dr. Wayne Grudem, Dr. Bruce Ware and others. These men have not revised the doctrine of the Trinity as he asserts. Their position should not in anyway be compared to the heretical Arianism of the 4th century as Trueman does.
These men are not ontological subordinationists like Arius (i.e. Jesus is a lesser God than the Father) in any way, shape or form. They have always condemned this position. Rather, they are functional subordinationists (i.e. Jesus has a subordinate role to the Father as the Son that is eternal). That is something completely different and it is a position that has been held throughout the history of the church to the present. For instance by Dr. R.C. Sproul and J.I. Packer (see below). As Sproul says, from all eternity the Son is subordinate to the Father. As Packer says, the Son is always complying.
Trueman may disagree with Grudem, Ware, Sproul, Packer, etc. but I think his position is the unsound one. Nevertheless, I would never imply that Trueman is a heretic for denying the eternal submission of the Son. He on the other hand, has no problem labeling the teaching of these men heretical and thereby effectively calls them heretics.
Trueman can disagree with them. That is fine. What isn’t fine, is for Trueman, Todd Pruitt, and Liam Goligher to purposely misrepresent their teaching and compare it to that of Arius, charge they are revising the Trinity, or claim it is anti-Nicene. The Nicene Creed (325, revised 381) condemned ontological subordinationism. It did not address functional subordinationism.
Grudem, Ware, in fact all complimentarians (i.e. those who believe there are complimentary differences between men and women), like all evangelicals, uphold the teaching of Nicene on the homoousios (i.e. of the same essence or nature) of the Son. I believe Trueman, Pruitt, Goligher need to ask forgiveness of Ware and Grudem for theological slander
“In orthodox Christianity, we say that the Son is equal to the Father in power, in glory, and in being. This discussion rests heavily on John 1:1, where we read, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” This verse indicates that the Father and the Word (the Son) are different and are one. In one sense, the Son and the Father are identical. In another sense, they are distinguished. From all eternity the Father sends the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. The Son doesn’t send the Father; the Father sends the Son. So even though the Father and the Son are equal in power, glory, and being, nevertheless there is an economic subordination of the Son to the Father.” (R.C. Sproul, “What’s the Difference between the Ontological and the Economic Trinity?”, Tabletalk, August 15, 2014)
“The basic assertion of this doctrine is that the unity of the one God is complex. The three personal “subsistences” (as they are called) are coequal and coeternal centers of self-awareness, each being “I” in relation to two who are “you” and each partaking of the full divine essence (the “stuff” of deity if we may dare to call it that) along with the other two. They are not three roles played by one person (that is modalism), nor are they three gods in a cluster (that it tritheism); the one God (“he”) is also, and equally, “they,” and “they” are always together and always cooperating, with the Father initiating, the Son complying, and the Spirit executing the will of both, which is his will also. This is the truth about God that was revealed through the words and works of Jesus and that undergirds the reality of salvation as the New Testament sets it forth.” (J.I. Packer, Concise Theology, p. 42)
If you want to read a personal and technical response by Dr. Bruce Ware go to this link.
An Open Letter to Liam Goligher, Carl Trueman, and Todd Pruitt on Trinitarian Equality and Distinctions
Bruce A. Ware
Rupert and Lucille Coleman Professor of Christian Theology
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
https://secundumscripturas.com/2016/07/08/an-open-letter-to-liam-goligher-carl-trueman-and-todd-pruitt-ontrinitarian-equality-and-distinctions-guest-post-by-bruce-ware/
Brent- you may be entirely correct. CBMW may be orthodox. Yes, this is complex. In a rush and did not read your link yet.
But I think you miss the point. If what is being said is subject to misinterpretation by both laymen and seminary professors, don’t you think at the very least there needs to be more careful communication? In Cor 5 Paul said that when I wrote XXXX I didn’t mean YYYY I meant ZZZZ. Paul had to clarify. It happens.
Why don’t we see clarifcation? Simple, IMO. Because of a bad analogy they won’t admit to.
In the OT the metaphor of marriage is God and His people. There is all sorts of language of being betrothed to a husband, being married, Israel committing adultery. Men and women together related to Jehovah God as bridegroom.
Paul shifts this a bit. We see marriage as like Christ and His church- still God as the husband, men and women together submitting to Christ. But husbands are set an example to be like Christ who laid down his life for His bride.
Marriage is not given as a picture of God the father as a husband relating to Jesus Christ the wife. It just isn’t. You can’t do that to God.
If, as Trueman claims, this analogy is being used to support domestic abuse, then we have a problem. It is one area where I might differ with Trueman and his buddies in that I think the abuse and suffering wives would happen anyway. I’ve seen ESS quotes from Doug Wilson….but take away those quotes and there is still a problem with DW. So how much is it a serious problem for marriages, and how much is it just a theological debate? I don’t know.
But if you and CBMW can’t see any validity to the concerns being expressed, then I think you just don’t want to face that maybe there is a problem somewhere- in communication and/or exegesis of bible analogies, if not actual beliefs.
Brent- read your link. And read what he was responding to:
(http://www.mortificationofspin.org/mos/1517/lets-all-be-nicene?utm_content=buffer51008&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer#.V9m6PoYrLNP)
Ware had said: “It is the Father, then who is supreme in the Godhead – in the triune relationships of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – and supreme over all of the very creation over which the Son reigns as its Lord.” – p. 50
“The Father is supreme over all, and in particular, he is supreme within the Godhead as the highest in authority and the one deserving of ultimate praise.” – p. 51″
“For, though the Father is supreme, though he has in the trinitarian order the place of highest authority, the place of highest honor, yet he chooses to do his work in many cases through the Son and through the Spirit rather than unilaterally.” – p. 55″
Nice of the Father to choose to work through the other two…..( roll eyes). The fact is the divine will to save is one will from before creation began.
Ok, so in the link you gave, Ware said he did not mean the Father has a supreme nature. He means the three persons have different roles in their divine activity and the Father has a supreme role. OK, so already he had to clarify. He didn’t mean a supreme nature/essence. Can you see what I mean about how they come off and how it has to be clarified? If you say the father has a nature superior to the son, you are a heretic. Now he says he didn’t mean nature.
Your article has “As God, they possess the identically same divine nature, and hence are equally fully divine, possessing identical divine attributes, and are of equal infinite worth and glory.” Can you see how different that sounds from when he earlier said “It is the Father, then who is supreme in the Godhead – in the triune relationships of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…”
Can you see how confusing this is? I get confused and I read theology. These men are teaching the average pew sitter. You tell a husband he is like God the supreme father, and what does that mean? Is husband headship in marriage “supreme?” Does the wife just do whatever he tells her all the time- never differs, never speaks up, does not have her own will or own mind? I notice at your link Ware does not address this marriage analogy.
I am sort of tired of it, I mean, Ware appears to see he needs to clarify, so good for him. He is not reiterating that marriage is like God and Jesus, instead of like Jesus and the church. Good for him again. He sounds like he can at least see how his writing was problematic. I’d like to see more of this from the rest of them, but then again, I don’t care anymore.
I’ve been reading Frame’s ST and other Reformed guys and distancing myself from TGC group and their writings. Was it Trueman who said that the celebrity Big Dogs saw themselves as the great bastion against liberalism? Maybe Pruitt?. Anyway, I am tired of the great ones who alone are right and have the purest truth. So many little guys out there with insight, love, and sound doctrine who are not part of the gang. Glad to be out. Thanks for posting.
I love metaphors, they are really, really useful, but they only capture a partial picture of whatever it is you are trying to describe. They should not be used to equate anything.
For example, if I took the metaphor of the Church as the Bride of Christ to the fullest degree, that would make the Church the daughter-in-law of the Father…and then my brain is fried at that point…
I agree with 5 Years…somehow comparing the Father-Son relationship to a husband-wife relationship is not just mixing metaphors, it’s nuts…what does that even mean? Does anyone hear what that sounds like?
This is part of the whole problem…basic common sense is missing.
PDI 5
Since you are the one to bring it up, I think it is only fair for me to ask the following question. Would you please tell me what you think that I believe about homosexuality? I defined my beliefs carefully on a TWW post and I am curious to see how you represent my beliefs. Not what readers say but what I say. From my understanding, my beliefs are consistent with many conservative theologians.
As for female elders and YEC, I did not say your positions are unscriptural. I just happen to deeply disagree with you. Readers are allowed to express their viewpoints freely at TWW. That does not mean that I agree or disagree with them.
Dee-
I have no idea. I have not looked at your site in a long time. I don’t remember anything you personally said about the subject from your fans. Some of the folks were quite unbiblical about homosexuality. If you say it wasn’t you I believe you.
One of you mods made some occasional nasty cracks about young earth creationism, but I’m going back years. Same for disdaining remarks about people who think the bible forbids women elders.
That’s OK…..I realized I don’t belong on your blog, and I read and post elsewhere. I only mentioned it because Brent said that Pruitt “in his interaction with readers on The Wartburg Watch back in April. He is easily offended and extremely sensitive to correction.”
I hadn’t followed whatever it was, but just wanted to say here that I did find your site offensive and can see that any Reformed conservative would probably get jumped on… maybe Pruitt is too thin skinned and Brent is correct, I’ve no idea. I got badly jumped on at WW. As I recall I posted occasionally under another handle from my 5 years one….but like I said I am going way back.
I understand things better now- guys like Driscoll and Wilson and of course SGM have done so much damage that a complementarian like me is going to cause a knee jerk reaction with the word. I get it, but I find it to be sad, maybe because my marriage is so happy and hub is so loving and I think the biblical teaching on male leadership is so helpful in a good marriage.
Anyway, as I said before, Pruitt took on Together for the Gospel having Mahaney on the roster, and I think it must have cost him. There are powerful evil spirits at work over some of the mess. I’ve tasted the edges of getting close to sociopathy in my life (relatives) to know how powerful the evil is that wants to crush you, and to sense the dark spirit forces. I can’t imagine what has come at more prominent people who resisted the SGM darkness. I’ve read enough stories here by people who were minor threats to SGM evils to know how bad it can be. I admire Pruitt for the public stand he took. I am sure many of the celebrity gang turned on him over it. He deserves our prayers and appreciation.
This is one post where Pruitt appeals to T4G not to have Mahaney speak.
http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/an-appeal-to-the-organizers-of-together-for-the-gospel#.V9tjpoYrLNM
Here is one snip:
“Of course, at this point to remove Mahaney from the T4G platform at this late date would do nothing to satisfy most of the critics. It would almost certainly be seen as “too little, too late.” It may well be seen as nothing more than a cynical ploy to reduce criticism of the conference. But that does not mean that such an action should not be taken. It would require a humble statement asking forgiveness for not acting sooner. It would mean taking in no uncertain terms a posture of solidarity with the victims of the abuse in SGM churches.
It should never have reached this point.”
Is being thin skinned and sensitive a bad thing? Maybe being thin skinned and sensitive is what makes some leaders sensitive to the abuse victims, while others come off like cold, hard, uncaring, arrogant, creeps. I think I prefer thin skinned and sensitive. Maybe having some feelings of empathy is better than ice water in your veins when you hear about little kids being molested.
Dee, you and Deb were extremely kind and patient with Pruitt on TWW. I plan to write about his conduct in the future.
I appreciate Pruitt saying Mahaney should not speak at T4G and the organizers (Dever, Duncan, Mohler) should ask forgiveness for asking him to do so. Pruitt, however, made this appeal based upon a morally neutral position on Mahaney’s guilt or innocence. That doesn’t work.
See below.
Todd Pruitt from the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals Calls for C.J. Mahaney’s Removal from Together for the Gospel (April 10, 2016)
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/todd-pruitt-from-the-alliance-of-confessing-evangelicals-cal.html
Kevin DeYoung’s Lack of Integrity Obvious in Reproof of Todd Pruitt & Defense of C.J. Mahaney as Above Reproach Like Jesus & Paul (May 1, 2016)
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/kevin-deyoungs-lack-of-integrity-obvious-in-reproof-of-todd.html
Brent- Mahaney said this:
“in the face of an ongoing civil lawsuit, I simply cannot speak publicly to the specifics of these events. Even with those constraints, however, let me be clear about this: I have never conspired to protect a child predator, and I also deny all the claims made against me in the civil suit.”
CJ has never been convicted by a jury, and is legally innocent until proven guilty. AoR esentially exonerated him of scandalous failings. I think Pruitt knows the truth, but when speaking from his position, one has to submit to the legal realities as they exist. CJ claims he is innocent. Pruitt did link to three ghastly articles about SGM and that’s doing a lot.
A lot of folks are still waiting for your apology about your own conduct. 30 years a great apostle and not a word of how wrong the entire SGM shepherding authoritarian system was, with its leaders on pedestals, including your own part. I think you out to work on your own logs before you go after Pruitt. Just my opinion.
5yearsinPDI,
C.J. is “legally” not guilty only because it did not go to court but as Boz T. has pointed out that is not the same as ethically not guilty. The evidence against him is overwhelming. He and CLC had a policy of not reporting child sex abusers to law enforcement. The District Attorney’s office said so. Josh said so. Corby said so. Robin said so. The victims said so.
Pruitt not only took a neutral position on C.J. regarding the conspiracy to cover up child sexual abuse; he took a neutral position in general regarding all the issues related to C.J. which have been proven, demonstrated, and illustrated hundreds of times. Furthermore, Pruitt lied about his knowledge of this evidence against C.J. on TWW in order to justify his neutrality. I confronted him for his lying.
You are covering ground we have covered many times. And you continue to misrepresent me. I have acknowledged wrong on this site and on my blog. You know that. But I am not guilty of the vast array of slanderous charges you have made against me. These too have been addressed and your errors repeatedly exposed in the past. For example, that I promoted and sold the Ezzo materiel on parenting when in fact I did just the opposite.
5yearsinPDI, you have been so badly mistaken so many times I can’t keep count. That is not only true with me but in relation to so many other people and issues. For example, saying I called Pruitt a liar above. Or your representation of Ware, Grudem, and CBMW above. Or your representation of TWW and Dee above. You make things up and constantly distort the facts. You are not a reliable source or guide.
Or for example, “and not a word of how wrong the entire SGM shepherding authoritarian system was.” My goodness, have you not read a word I’ve written. I formally began addressing spiritual abuse and the exaltation of leaders starting in December 2000. This led to a major confrontation of C.J. in 2004. In 2007, I resigned from the Board as a matter of conscience. In 2009, I left SGM for the same. In 2010, I began producing major documents. In 2011, I stated my blog and written nearly 300 posts. Over the last 16 years I’ve sacrificed everything in order to address the idolatry, hypocrisy, corruption, lording, and lying in SGM. And you say, “not a word.”
As I’ve pointed out in the past and illustrated extensively, your abusive and slanderous writing on this blog has often equaled or exceeded that found in the SGM “authoritarian system.” All my interaction with you has proven fruitless. You continue to attack, slander and misrepresent.
I will be gone the next week. I don’t plan to read here. Have at it. Have fun.
When I return I plan to start posting again on BrentDetwiler.com. There are so many major stories I’ve been working on for a long time but I have not been able to complete due to the medically challenging circumstances Jenny and I have faced the past two years.
Brent, as 5 years has said, the problem is the CBMW crowd has said they do not believe in onotological subordination, only functional subordination, and that they agree with the Nicene creed, but then they also say things that contradict that, and continue to espouse ESS. Many (all?) patristic scholars have said that what the CBMW crowd says is not consistent with Nicene and Athanasian Hersey, and is some of what was fought over in the early church. (5 years quotes are just some of the many). they are now saying that they don’t beleive in ESS, and have not taught it except for once, but have in reality scrubbed it from their website, as has been shown by many
(for the full breakdown of everything related to this, see http://www.booksataglance.com/blog/2016-trinity-debate-bibliography-okay-teach-complementarianism-based-eternal-subordination/ )
What you are also missing is that these people are the same one’s who keep CJ in power, becuase membership on CBMW seems to trump any theology or practice concerns, and speaking ill of someone in CBMW is grounds for the pitchforks to be raised and everyone to go after you. This is what happened to any who opposed CJ (who is an council member and purswell is a board member) and this is what has happened with the MOS crowd pointing out the bad theology over there. Even when they have recanted/repudiated some of it (without admitting they ever taught in error of course) the people are more upset that anyone dare say ill of them.
And for Todd lying – just because you sent him a bunch of documents (that he may have or may not have read) that proves in your mind what you are saying about CJ (and for the record I generally agree with what you are saying) does not mean he is receiving just as much documents/calls/emails from others saying the opposite, or that he has fully examined all the evidence or has any desire to. And he probably believes in general what you have said, but it has not been ruled that way by either the law or the denomination, or the outside consultant, and it is really not necessarily his issue to get into the minutia on deciding (and I agree that all of those never proved he was innocent and had problems). I thought the way he spoke of it was wise – he said that regardless of the validity, CJ should not speak. He didn’t try to become the judge and jury for a situation that he was not put in a place to be the judge and jury or had fully examined to his standards, he still said he should not speak and he didn’t need to know all of those things to say so. I don’t see how any of that is not above board. And calling him a liar seems completely uncalled for.
I think some of these “hair splitting” debates are important, but this is just not where most Christians are in their knowledge or their walks. 90% of the Christians I know are in desperate need of discipleship and personal holiness. The ESS debate does not resonate when you need milk!
Brent…. This is getting to be so over the top that it undermines your credibility, along with others that participate in online drama! I am glad you broke rank and exposed these bozos…. I always figured that CJ rose to rock star status simply because he had the innovative idea to blend reformed teaching with charismatic leanings. I actually think it was a good marketing idea (and lines up with scripture). CJ created the ultimate idol factory and a “job creation” machine for friends and family. But Brent, in spite of all the garbage going on under our noses… I think we bought it because we wanted to believe it. Looking back…. I need to admit that I was foolish. I appreciate what you did, but you come across with an heir of superiority that I wish you could see. No doubt, in spite of SGMs dysfunction, some people have been saved and positively impacted. God is always pleased to use the needle of truth in a haystack of error. When it comes to scholarly teaching, is a lightweight at best. Unless someone needs to hear the basics over and over and over again…. I cannot imagine what was ever so compelling about his teaching. But…. Many did!
I meant to say “CJ is a lightweight at best”. Sorry!!
Nice post Sw/worry
Brent…..where do I start. You are an example of what I mean by people needing to clarify and communicate when they feel misunderstood.
You said: “For example, saying I called Pruitt a liar above.”
You are upset because I claimed you called Pruitt a liar?
You did say this:
“I highly doubt his comment,…….. First, I think Pruitt is likely making this up or greatly exaggerating…… Furthermore, Pruitt lied about his knowledge of this evidence against C.J. on TWW in order to justify his neutrality. I confronted him for his lying.”
Uh…..you doubt what he says, thinks he likely made it up, and say he lied, and now you are upset with me because I said you called him a liar?
I will be gracious- somebody told me you had surgery and maybe you are on pain killers, so I’ll write it off as narcotics. You are normally not this illogical.
Presbyterian made such a good comment I can only applaud it and hope you reread it.
Secondly…I am not giving this one extra minute with google searches going back years, but I am not making up anything I said about WW including the occasional snide and contemptuous comment from the mods, not necessarily to me. I know what happened and I’ve had interactions with others who saw the same things I saw. Like I said, it was years ago. They are welcome to think Adam nursed at the hairy breast of his primate mother as mankind evolved, and they are welcome to go back to God’s alleged perfect plan before the fall where supposedly women could be church elders, if I understand their position rightly. (I suppose it follows that they all go to church naked, and are not ashamed?) I don’t doubt they have helped many victims of Driscoll and whoever else they expose, and hope to see them in heaven. Anyway, I am not lying.
I said you sold Ezzo material? Me? I doubt that, but if so, I must have meant PDI in general in the 90s when I took my Ezzo class and you were an apostle and I assumed you all promoted it. If you spoke up against Ezzo back then, I am glad to hear it. (Last time I was at the store I left my shopping cart by the curb so I hope I don’t go to hell….)
Lastly, regarding your apostolic leadership in SGM for three decades or so. It was recycled shepherding and discipleship, Ft Lauderdale 5, whatever you call it. Of it, Bob Mumford’s repentance was plastered on the front page of a Christian magazine with the words:
“’Discipleship was wrong. I repent. Please forgive me”.
Obviously you and Larry and CJ never got the message, and the authoritarian pyramidal structure with its potential and actual abuses continued.
You just wrote: “Or for example, “and not a word of how wrong the entire SGM shepherding authoritarian system was.” My goodness, have you not read a word I’ve written. I formally began addressing spiritual abuse and the exaltation of leaders starting in December 2000. This led to a major confrontation of C.J. in 2004. In 2007, I resigned from the Board as a matter of conscience. In 2009, I left SGM for the same. In 2010, I began producing major documents. In 2011, I stated my blog and written nearly 300 posts. Over the last 16 years I’ve sacrificed everything in order to address the idolatry, hypocrisy, corruption, lording, and lying in SGM. And you say, “not a word.”
Brent, maybe I miscommunicated. I know you wrote about how bad CJ was, and how bad many other men were. I know you tried to expose corruption in many SGM leaders. But I haven’t read everything you ever wrote- where did you apologize for what Brent Detwiler helped create and sustain for decades? Where did you say that the SGM model for apostles and pastoring and leaders was in some respects a very flawed model?
I know you have addressed how CJ would not play by the rules……but have you ever admitted that some of the rules were wrong, and you yourself were wrong in helping to establish those rules? Did you ever admit to anything you did wrong? I don’t see it. All I see is CJ and the rest being wrong, but never you. Maybe I missed it, I’ve read what you write here but probably not everything you write.
So, let me try again: I asked above- A lot of folks are still waiting for your apology about your own conduct. 30 years a great apostle and not a word of how wrong the entire SGM shepherding authoritarian system was, with its leaders on pedestals, including your own part.
Brent, can you apologize for yourself and like Mumford, say that YOU were wrong? A founding apostle…..did you contribute to the problem? If I missed your apology I would love to see a link, thanks.
I’ve had to do this hundreds of time myself, with my kids, relatives, and Christians from the past. You’ll be so glad you admitted how wrong you were once you do it. Very freeing.
Brent — presbyterian said above… “And he [Pruitt] probably believes in general what you have said, but it has not been ruled that way by either the law or the denomination, or the outside consultant, and it is really not necessarily his issue to get into the minutia on deciding (and I agree that all of those never proved he was innocent and had problems). I thought the way he spoke of it was wise – he said that regardless of the validity, CJ should not speak. He didn’t try to become the judge and jury for a situation that he was not put in a place to be the judge and jury or had fully examined to his standards, he still said he should not speak and he didn’t need to know all of those things to say so. I don’t see how any of that is not above board. And calling him a liar seems completely uncalled for.”
My thoughts exactly. I couldn’t have stated it better, and am too lazy to have tried. And Brent did call Pruitt a liar, (as 5yrs said).
5years….You go girl. I bet your fingers are smoking from trying to type as fast as your thoughts and words were coming to mind. I’ve been there/done that. Thanks for your helpful input.
Thanks Oswald. It gives me no pleasure to write any of it.
Brent said above:
“formally began addressing spiritual abuse and the exaltation of leaders starting in December 2000. This led to a major confrontation of C.J. in 2004.”
Here is Brent in September 2004 to exalt CJ. It as the weekend that CJ handed over senior pastorate to Harris.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rdo7eZCKE
So Brent claims he was addressing spiritual abuse and the exaltation of leaders in 2000, yet he gives this speech in 2004- the same year he had a major confrontation with CJ ??????????????
I actually believe him. I actually believe that behind the scenes he was confronting CJ. Yet he completely compromises his own integrity by giving this speech to CLC. Why?
I can guess why. The same reason my husband and I compromised our own integrity and smiled our way through the last two years in PDI even when the light bulbs went off. Fear. Inferiority complexes (well, us, but probably not Brent). Denial. Not wanting to lose friends. Not knowing where else to go to church. Not wanting to incur the frown of pastors. The same reason I ratted on a particular small group leader’s wife just to get “in” with a pastors wife…and hated myself for so long afterwards, but still kept wishing I could be friends with this woman I had to betrayed confidences to, just to feel “in”. God has forgiven me, but I was under the spell. Watch this video. Brent is so far under the spell. I hope I can be forgiven for this language, but it fits- his head is so far up CJs rear end in this video you wonder he didn’t suffocate. And yet he posts here that he was confronting CJ? Can you see the disconnect, the utter failure of integrity in front of CLC?
Hey, I did it, I bet a lot of us did it, obviously not to Brent’s degree, but we did it. We wanted the leaders to smile upon us. We have to say now that we were wrong, we are sorry, and there was something wrong inside us that got us entrenched in the cult.
Hey, if Brent has ever apologized for this video please send me a link. I will never dredge up this crap again if he has publicly apologized for this.
New post I just published:
“Jonathan Leeman: Parsing Words and Deleting Comments”
Included is the audio of Mahaney giving $10,000 of SGM members donations to Mark Dever.
http://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/24/jonathan-leeman-parsing-words-deleting-comments/?preview_id=4771&preview_nonce=22a3d15fae&_thumbnail_id=3286&preview=true
Todd your link didn’t work. It said Something along the lines that I wasn’t authorized to look at a draft. This link should work:
http://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/24/jonathan-leeman-parsing-words-deleting-comments/
Thanks Todd.
10 years ago a pastor we loved and respected gave us the 9 Marks book and said it was so good and helpful. I took one look at the table of contents and said as nice as I could that I wouldn’t read it and the author obviously doesn’t “get it”. Not one of the 9 marks of a healthy church was prayer. (You can see the table of contents on Amazon.)
The pastor was nonplussed and finally said that he thought they must mean prayer was implied throughout. I said maybe, but a truly healthy church emphasizes prayer. (By prayer, I mean knowing God has to move and we are dependent on him prayer that brings requests before God, I don’t mean the speaking things into being and declaring things garbage, and binding the devil and breaking curses.)
That pastor was a good guy and a praying man and I hoped my comments helped keep him from “the spell”.
Back when the PDI little book “Why Small groups” came out, we all had to read it in small group. One chapter a week. First week we did CJ’s chapter and I spoke up and said CJ does not mention prayer. Audible gasps. Leader said well of course he must, and starts paging through the chapter and I said don’t bother, there is no reference to prayer in small groups. Everybody was dumbfounded.
Hub and I talked to one pastor together; concerns better come from hub and not the lowly female. Pastor must have been aware of it; he immediately said emphatically that in this church we pray in small groups and prayer is important. By my recollection it was about a year later he was “degifted”, and he was a good guy.
Remember when the docs first came out? I never did read all of them, but somebody here posted that they looked in vain in 900 pages for references to the Great Apostles praying together. Asking God to move, begging God for help and wisdom, seeking God to work out the problems…..not a mention. (I do assume maybe they opened and closed with prayer, but in 900 pages you’d think Detwiler would have commented on lengthy prayer times. Prayer apparently was not a priority).
Then CJ spoke at celebration on prayer, and how he really wasn’t into it much and he knew he should pray more and so forth. I remember feeling sad. Prayer is drawing near to God and talking to God, and it is supposed to be so nice, so comforting, so helpful, a sense of His divine presence. It is something we want to do and look forward to. CJ’s message was one of duty even if you didn’t really have your heart in it. That’s a start, we need to pray even when we don’t feel like it, but it was obvious he’d never had a great prayer life communing with God. I realized hubby and I had something he didn’t have, something huge.
I am in a church now with a mid week prayer meeting and the pastors and elders and deacons come to it. We are not dynamic and radical and amazing, just ordinary. That’s OK, I’ll take it :)
It was mentioned somewhere in Todd’s latest post (either Todd or a commented) that sadly the “9 Marks”didn’t mention love. If you read I Cor 13 it tells what someone is (or really isn’t) if they don’t have love.
5yearsinPDI
Good point about how prayer wasn’t mentioned and is quite sad.
A lack of prayer IMO basically goes along with not going to Jesus and and asking what He wants done and doing that. Remember when Paul was forbid by the Holy Spirit to preach in Asia? It might have been a good thing going there but wasn’t what God wanted done.
With the lack of prayer that the SGM “apostles” apparently didn’t do (based on it not being mentioned much in the documents) makes one wonder how much these leaders really went to God and asked what He wanted done vs. them just doing something since in their minds it might have seen right.
It is also interesting that the “9 Marks” from what I have seen makes no mention of Jesus being Lord and that leadership and members are to seek and do His will. Very sad.
I do not have a problem with the 9 Marks. Back in the day, I found them quite helpful, as many churches were headed down the path of having no standards at all. I simply thought that the nine marks were a way to biblically capture some healthy church practices. For the most part I still think that!
I think the bigger problem is that pride crept in. As the celebrity pastors all became full of themselves, it became impossible for them to hold each other accountable. I think of King Saul….. God used him when he was “little in his own sight”. When King Saul sinned and was confronted by Samuel…. What did he do? He blamed the people!
I know more people and families that have been destroyed by LACK of church discipline than poorly executed discipline. Sadly… The nine marks folks and SGM people have been total hypocrites by the way they handled CJ.
Sick With Worry
Interesting how you talk about LACK of church discipline.
From what I have seen especially with the 9 Marks crowd is that their use of “church discipline” is used more along the lines of keeping regular members in “their place.” It is used limit questioning etc. under the guise of it being “gossip” or “slander.” It is similarly used to prevent regular members from sharing at best questionable actions by leaders that might have consequences for a leader(s) if more regular members knew about them. I am sure that C.J. Mahaney’s sin/hypocrisy would have come out a lot earlier if there wasn’t such a broad definition of “gossip” and “slander.”
Also with church discipline you rarely hear about leaders being disciplined as scripture says to do without favoritism. Church discipline is mostly if not exclusively applied to regular members. Maybe this is what you mean by “lack” of church discipline?
Brent has a new post up:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/jeff-purswells-condescending-letter-regarding-disgruntled-sg.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rdo7eZCKE
sigh. Another tirade by Brent. He is probably correct in all his rants about the CJ enablers, the CJ loyalists, and the lies and cover ups. He should know, he was one of them.
Here he is in 2004 doing the exact same thing he accuses others of. If he is to be believed that he had been addressing the SGM exaltation of leaders, spiritual abuse, and the sin in CJs life for at least 4 years prior to this speech, then why did Brent give this adoring speech?
Answer- Brent was the same as all the rest of them back then.
He isn’t now. He has seen the light to some degree. Thank God for a start. But he still will not admit to his own part in the muck and mire, his own enabling and lies and cover ups. Everything these bad guys did, Brent did. Watch it at this link. This is only one brief snapshot of the Detwiler ministry that was just like these evil CJ enablers for maybe 20 years or more.
I know you read here Brent. Why can’t you just admit you were under the spell too, and you fell into the trap too, and say you are sorry and ask the SGM flock you misled and deceived about CJ to forgive you for what you did back then? It wasn’t just other men, it was YOU. I believe they will forgive. I know I would. I fell into it. My wonderful hub fell into it. Most folks who read here fell into it. All we want is a truthful apology.
I don’t think God is going to bless any of your writings if you won’t admit to your part and ask forgiveness. You keep making it about other people. You never make it about you being wrong in the past. It is getting almost repulsive to read these rants as if you were not equally guilty in your past. Hey, I see myself as guilty and I wasn’t an apostle with influence.
We know you read here.
5yearsinPDI – I was the one who posted all those videos. I have often wondered your identity as you have posted many interesting things over the years.
What a great opportunity for SGM to donate all of that money we collected for Haiti last time. Did anyone ever account for that money?
SGM does know that people dig deeper in their pockets to donate to foreign countries and that may be why they ‘open their Mission Fund’ foor places like Haiti. But, from I know, SGM/SGC, does not believe in giving money directly to countries or areas in need. They prefer to filter the money though approved ‘local churches’. If memory serves, the reason SGM stated that they failed to give all the money collected for Haiti was they failed to find an acceptable church to donate the money to.
However, I heard a representative from Haiti say they didn’t always need the supplies people donated to them and it would help them more to receive cash. Of course, that has it’s own accountability issues. But, I wish SGC would post whatever happened to the money collected for Haiti. I hope they didn’t reroute it to plant SGC churches.
Maybe SGC could redirect the aid money to North Carolina this time – there is are a couple of SGC churches there, and many, many people have been displaced and lost so much due to the floods…
Magruder- thanks for setting up that site. It matters that you did.
I did not go to CLC so I doubt we ever met. Sometimes I have thought about not being anonymous just so I could try and meet some people here. But so far I’ve hesitated. I guess if the site ever gets hacked and we all get outed, it will at least be a plus to be able to meet some folks in person.
I knew people from two PDI churches back in the day and we figured out the recycled 70s shepherding by the time we left. We moved closer geographically to a third after we left, and the local home school moms and our pastor had some nasty stories. Mostly the treatment of women and cultish sort of stuff, nothing as bad as the sex abuse cover ups and bungled counseling. I know some people who recently began attending an SGM church and they are clueless about the mess.
The last few years left me reeling at times. You think it is just PDI/SGM and CJ and the A team, and then the internet fills with the Driscoll enablers and T4G/TGC/CCEF enabling CJ or SGM. Thank God I know enough decent people and pastors who love the Lord and live for Him in obscurity or I would have given up on church altogether. The Lord will build His church though, and He will be glorified, despite the terrible failings of his people. Many of the posters here have been so encouraging to me, as much as anybody in my real world.
As somebody said at your site, Brent was part of the abusive church disciple (and degiftings) and now he is playing the victim card. 100%. He has got to acknowledge his own part and apologize. There is no partiality with God, we all have to live this way. It is a fearful thing to lose God’s blessings on what we try to build, if we don’t confess our sins to God and those we injured. I can only wonder if maybe Brent has a blind spot and just does not see any fault in his past so he does not see any need to ask forgiveness. Perhaps in time that will change.
*discipline, not disciple
These posts just make my heart sad.
I understand that you have been hurt terribly by SGM, and I am so sorry for that. It was all a terrible situation, and I am also happy to be out of the mess, as I am sure you are.
BUT
there comes a point when you need to move on and work on your own lives instead of other sinners’ lives. You are all out of SGM and now all I see are these gossipy, angry posts. In the long run, how do these changes help you grow as a christian? I do think this website should be deleted, because I think this website has become a hate-filled, ungodly place for people to moan and groan and be validated in their victim-mentality. You may have been a victim at one point, but now you have stopped becoming a victim and started to be the instigators and culprits.
You made it out. You have a life to live, why not get involved in your own churches to make the changes better than SGM? Help your churches and pastors become better. Make friends and turn your terrible pasts into helpful testimonies.
This negativity isn’t helping anyone, and is just allowing you to be self-righteous and basically internet trolling people and situations that you don’t really know anything about. You keep making judgements and expecting the worst.
What happened to forgiveness and kindness? What happened to believing the best? God can change the most sinful leaders and churches, and he is in control of SGM.
Pastors abused their positions, sins were covered, yes, it’s true, but is this website and are these posts really something you think God approves and condones?
How does it affect your life that pastors are moving churches and “not gifted?” Who are you to judge and determine that “something must be wrong?”
Please, stop this. It’s harmful to be constantly living with such a negative attitude. I pray that you are able to deal with your issues and forgive and forget. Forgiveness is moving on.
Brent has aligned himself with the sexual abuse victims, but as far as I know has never acknowledged or repented of spiritual abuse.
In fact, his continued witch hunt reveals he has not changed.
Brent’s 45 Signs of Pride were the heart of spiritual abuse. No matter what your behavior, no matter what your response to others, Brent found a way to call it pride and turn the tables on you.
The victims of sexual and domestic abuse are victims with whom we can sympathize. Yet, Brent’s teaching on pride is what made the “care” they received during their tragic circumstances so abusive. When a domestic abuse victim is told to look at her own sin, we all see the abuse in that.
But, for the rest of us? There are no words. We can’t explain it. We followed the Holy Spirit within us and tried to speak up when something just didn’t seem right. And, all of a sudden it was about us. All of a sudden Brent’s 45 Signs of Pride appear to show us why every anointed impression we had was actually deceitfully wicked. All of a sudden we are marginalized, shunned, threatened, belittled, rebuked. And, in our confusion, we were forced to denounce what was true and embrace what was false. And, we’re left with no words to describe it and a scrambled view of God.
As long as Brent thinks this is about sex abuse, and not about the witch hunt culture, he is unrepentant.
Anyone know what the Stepford Wives are up to over at the Girl Talk Blog?
From what i can make out, they are selling home decor now.
Just saying – great point on the 45 pride points. Quick note –
I was at the Celebration Conference where Brent first taught the “45 Signs of Pride”. He was about halfway down the list when all of a sudden, CJ jumps up on stage to bring the sermon to an end. Brent let out an angry “what?!?” (pride?) and CJ calmly explained it was time to bring this sermon to a close. (What a relief, by the way.)
That is quite interesting that the Mahaney girls and wife haven’t done a blog post in over 6 Months. Hard to believe. Did they run out of things to say or maybe realize their audience isn’t nearly the size it use to be?
Saddened
You are using all of the old SGM tactics to try and silence people.
If nothing else this blog is great that people can stay informed about SGM and what is ready going on. This type of press at least helps keep SGM in check where maybe the leaders don’t do as questionable actions as they did in the past.
Believe it or not I can comment here and not be bitter.
I would like to know where scripturally you get the concept of “believing the best.” I know that was something that SGM taught as biblical but the bible teaches not to do that in many places.
We see what believing the best about C.J. Mahaney produced and allowed and that sure isn’t pretty. Maybe if people hadn’t believed the best about him and other leaders the fraud that C.J. Was would have been found out much earlier.
Just saying, that was profound. In fact it was one of he most succinct, well articulated and profound statements ever posted here.
We still today run into people who are Calvinists, and find out we are Calvinist non cessationists, and say “oh, SGM”, as if SGM had the corner on that brand. (To a great extent they did/do.)
We try to explain why we are not SGM and don’t want to be, and people don’t understand. They think the entire problem in recent years has to do with the lawsuit and sex abuse related matters. Were the situations truly handled badly (clergy privilege not calling cops) and did CJ really know about any of it and is CJ guilty and look at all the big name people on his side.
You try to explain what life was like in PDI-SGM and how even if the sex abuse cases had never happened and there had never been the lawsuit, it still deserved the word “cult” and “false apostles” and so forth. You may as well try to explain life on the other side of the moon. They find it hard to understand. If they respect you they believe you; if they don’t know you very well you just come off picky and critical. I am extremely careful in what I say any more and to whom.
It is also interesting how the Mahaneysports blog (the one CJ was doing with his son Chad) indicates the site has expired. It doesn’t surprise me that the sports blog has expired since they stopped posting right after it became public that Chad was arrested for DUI.
Still it is shocking that the Mahaney girls have been so quiet for over 6 months.
Saddened –
When someone has been abused, the biggest fight for wholeness and truth involves identifying the abuse and the lies the abuser convinced them to believe about themselves. Then, denounce and disown it. That is the path to healing.
When someone has been spiritually abused, the biggest fight for wholeness and truth involves identifying the abuse and the lies the abuser convinced them to believe about God and His love for them. Then, denounce and disown it. That is the path to healing.
The search for Truth means holding tightly to the understanding that the abuser was wrong. Losing a grip on that means slipping right back into the lies and deception that occurred from the manipulation and coercion that so detrimentally distorted God’s love.
We can’t stop declaring it. I will probably have to “preach it to myself” every day for the rest of my life. It’s the only way to loose the grip they have on my soul.
I think it is very hard for SGM or SGC Pastors to admit their faults or their guilt in functioning as part of the SGM organization. Their livelihood was or is at stake. They might even be convince that ‘slandering’ a leader ultimately brings shame on the church. Also they were trained to be deeply invested in protecting CJ and hiding his deceit. They knew the Emperor had no clothes but, they convinced themselves somehow it was okay. It’s only as we saw the poor character of a few of our pastors, that we lost respect for the whole lot of them. And we knew we could not change the unhealthy system, as they were tightly bonded together for self-protection. We just could not fathom a time when any of them would defect. Brent is only one that did and, we can be grateful that he had the courage to stand against the tide. It may take him years to fully confess his own faults just as it taking Joshua Harris a long time to see his errors. So, I’m not holding my breath for the day they will.
just saying said:
I like to use the example of someone that grew up with say a verbally abusive father and who disciplined and “corrected” his children using this manner. The child will grow up and in all likelihood use that same approach on their child unless specific steps are taken to avoid it. It will also be so easy to fall back into using what they grew up with unless they constantly remind themselves to no use this approach.
Similarly we need to do the same thing having been involved with an abusive ministry call SGM/CLC. We need to consciously and repeatedly make sure we aren’t falling back into that same mistake.
Just saying’s post you just quoted Steve is a home run hit out of the ball park.
I know enough about PTSD to know that generally to some extent the triggers go off for the rest of your life, even if they lessen, but you learn to quickly put off lies and put on truth and not give into whatever it was that happened. But it can be a lifetime battle, with long periods where you think you are over it, and then something happens and the old memories and thought patterns get stirred up.
Lately I’ve been thinking about how important it is to always remember that when I was saved/regenerated/born again, God placed in me a new heart and new spirit. I am more than just a sinner and idolater, and my first identity has to be my union with Christ. It is true that I am a sinner who will always have a sin nature until heaven, but looking back, that truth was used to squash so much joy and walking with God. There is a “heresy of emphasis” that focuses on the cross and sin to the minimizing of the resurrection and our joyful inheritance of the Holy Spirit working within us. I am still trying to sort it all out sometimes, but one thing I do know for sure, is that there was something terribly wrong with doctrine in the later 90s in PDI.
Has anyone heard or possibly seen SGM’s most recent Annual Financial Report? I think their fiscal year ends at the end of July or August. They use to publish it on the website but so far there’s nothing for FY16.
As I recall SGM’s financial report doesn’t come out until sometime late in the year like December. It will be interesting to see what it shows this year. Did they lose money again etc. I haven’t heard of them doing any major fundraising to try and build up their reserves again. A lot of SGM’s assets and reserves were in their share of the CLC building as I recall.
SGC seems to be focusing on international church planting and their Worship Matters dept. They probably make a little money on honorariums, too. But, the fact they have a tiny staff and the Cooks left this year or so, means they do not have enough to hire more people. The L’ville church has swelled a bit but, I haven’t noticed that the staffing has grown. The organization seems stagnant compared to their CLC days.
Persona
What do you mean by ‘honorariums.” If you are talking about speaking fees then I thought the individual speaker keeps that. I think Kauflin’s music is somewhat of a “cash cow” for the group.
Unless Louisville really expands I would hope they don’t add staff. They had quite the staff size for being such a small church. Then again I hope the Lousville church doesn’t expand. ;-).
Steve240
Yeah, each speaking engagement would probably supplement their salaries. I think the Bob K and SG Music is their cash cow. Still, I do wonder why the Kauflins moved-out of their huge house recently; if they had to downsize?
I hadn’t heard that Bob Kauflin sold his house. Good question on whether this was a family choice or something they had to do based on reduced income coming in. It was quite a large house that Bob initially purchased down in KY. I would have figured that he would have already had a nice nest with his history with SGM Music and his band.
Unless his house appareciated quickly I imagine selling so quickly if anything would cause him to lose money.
I seem to recall that initially the SGM Louisville church set up offices in Bob Kauflin’s house.
I wonder if Mahaney and the others who agreed to the move to Louisville ever thought that so many SGM Churches would leave the fold and that their income would be reduced as drastically as it has. I imagine they didn’t especially with the arrogance Mahaney has shown. Even if some close to him had an idea that this might happen I doubt they would have been wiling to approach the “pope” and let him know of this possibility.
I did a little Googling and what is even more perplexing with Bob Kauflin is that they sold their house this past November 2015 and it appears that they didn’t purchase a replacement house. Based on what I was able to find, the Kauflins are now living with another couple in a house the other couple owns.
I wonder what this means. One would think that if they were going to purchase a replacement house in the Louisville area they would have done that by now. Does this mean that Bob Kauflin plans to move somewhere else? It certainly appears that way.
Also, based on the 11/15 sales price and what some Real Estate sites indicate was what Bob Kauflin paid for this house when he moved from Gaithersburg the house increased in value. I doubt the increase covered much more than the cost of sale incurred and whatever upgrades the Kauflins made during their short stay there. They did better than most that sell their house so quickly.
Another possibility is that the Kauflins are having a new house built or remolded, and they are just bunking with someone until the work is done…?
OutThere
That is possible what you suggest but it has been almost a year since they sold their house. Then again there are delays with building new houses so is plausible the new house or remodel.
So Brent has an article up about Wayne Grudem’s endorsement of CJ the last few years. I don’t doubt that it is all entirely correct.
However, once again Brent, the question has to be asked why you won’t apologize for the very thing you keep harping on to others.
Brent, again, how many times do you have to be asked to apologize for your own part? Once, even once, can you say how sorry you are that YOU endorsed CJ as a man of high integrity and exemplary character, even while at the same time you knew him to be a hypocrite? You deceived and misled the entire CLC congregation.
At least Wayne Grudem honestly thought CJ was a good guy. You however, already knew he wasn’t. Yet you stood on stage and gave this slobbering, drooling, kiss CJ’s rear end speech that was pure hypocrisy on your own part. Just admit it. This was after April 2004 when you saw that CJ was “a hypocrite not watching over his own heart.”
Here we go, the third time I link this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rdo7eZCKE
Brent, I would really like to see God bless your endeavors. I really truly would. SGM and CJ are slowly creeping right back to their own position in the neo Calvinist world and I hate to see it happen. I don’t think they have ever very repented of a long litany of problems that goes beyond the sex abuse cover ups.
But I just don’t think you will ever get anywhere until you can honestly tell the world how much you were part of it, how guilty you were, and then from that open and transparent humility you can speak. You can share the allure of how an “apostle” (false apostle) wanted you to be another apostle (he probably saw your many gifts and realized they could help build his mega corporation) and you fell for the position and the honor, and when you began to see the truth, the spell of being on top had such a grip on your soul that you had to keep adoring and worshipping CJ anyway in public, as shown in the link from 2004 AFTER your eyes were open. Brent, you could write such a magnificent book on how this cult got hold of good men and stole away their integrity, and how it mesmerized many in the Reformed community. You can talk about how the grip of the spell captured you. From a position of honesty you could have such a tremendous impact. But it has to start with your own admission of your own guilt.
It’s Thanksgiving..that time to thank Kris and Guy for their hard work and sacrifice. Couldn’t be more grateful for you two!
I agree Persona. We need to be thankful for all the hard work and sacrifice Guy did.
If it wasn’t for this blog and Jim’s blog then when the documents were released exposing all of the hypocrisy within SGM it wouldn’t have had nearly the impact. With the blogs up so many more people became aware and thus the impact vs. not having blogs. Even before the documents came out, the blogs served to get people to start thinking and questioning which was severely lacking within SGM.
It is a shame that so much of SGM Leadership failed to heed the warnings and take the appropriate steps as a result of all of this but one can only warn. The group has now and will continue to suffer the consequences of their poor response and one day these leaders will have to give an account. It they think having their private emails publicly expose just wait till they have to face God who has all these emails and whole lot more and will reveal the intentions of their hearts.
I am sure the SGM Leadership thinks they have a real fear of God but sadly their actions have shown otherwise.
Thank you, 5 Years, for this:
>Lately I’ve been thinking about how important it is to always remember that when I was saved/regenerated/born again, God placed in me a new heart and new spirit. I am more than just a sinner and idolater, and my first identity has to be my union with Christ. It is true that I am a sinner who will always have a sin nature until heaven, but looking back, that truth was used to squash so much joy and walking with God. There is a “heresy of emphasis” that focuses on the cross and sin to the minimizing of the resurrection and our joyful inheritance of the Holy Spirit working within us. I am still trying to sort it all out sometimes, but one thing I do know for sure, is that there was something terribly wrong with doctrine in the later 90s in PDI.<
There was a time when I wondered if somehow I had become a reprobate — hardened to the presence of sin in my life. We were admonished to be alert to sin's deception, and it seemed like someone was always confessing failure or wrong motives. These sorrowful disclosures were shared in small group, from behind the pulpit, or just in everyday conversation. Heaviness about sin was the air we breathed.
I don't remember when I first began to realize that I didn't feel as convicted about sin as some others, but it was a troubling observation. Had I crossed that terrible line into spiritual blindness — just a step away from cold- hearted apostasy?
Thankfully, I was helped to see that a pure heart is something we can actually experience — a living reality, not some kind of Satanic deception. That we can walk with Father God in sweet and child-like simplicity… not fearfully, not obsessed with guilty self-examination… not really needing to think overmuch about ourselves at all, especially when we have tbe sublime Holy Spirit showing us new delights and bringing such comfort and peace.
I do agree with our teachers that the Cross was vitally important. But the cross was a portal — a doorway to relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. "That He might gather all things together in Christ…."
We now walk in newness of life. The old, guilty weights are gone, lifted from us by our burden-bearer and brother, Jesus our Savior, who is "not ashamed to call us brethren."
Blessings to you all… and may the riches of our Father's love, and the sweet fellowship of Son and Spirit bring us all the joy and peace we were created for.
Still no new financial report posted and no response from Tommy Hill. Maybe things aren’t real green for SGM/SGC?
Hi everybody, hope you are all well.
Saw this tonight and thought maybe it might be appreciated by a few readers. It is geared towards women in abusive marriages. I am not one of them, thank God, but the stories I’ve read here about how SGM forced women to say with wicked husbands have been tragic.
http://www.garythomas.com/enough-enough/#comment-247064
Brent has an outstanding article that he wrote that clearly lays out the case of CJ Mahney’s sin and hypocrisy. It also shows the hypocrisy of the three stooges that falsely cleared Mahaney of my wrong doing. Be sure to read it. It’s excellent!
What is difficult, for Brent I am sure, and for people like me that have left SGM, is that it would appear that God has allowed SGM and Mahaney to continue their path without the full discipline of the Lord. Mahaney and his followers and pundits have waylaid their own paths and have left the clear teachings of the Bible to ford their own “truth”. It is sad. Why do believers have a greater love of man than they do for their Lord? How can believers forego truth and Godly response to sin and make up their own gospel?
I do know that God is not mocked… And whether He decides to address their sin here or in the afterlife, I do know that He cares for those that SGM has hurt. He cares for the weak… The ones without a voice and without “prominent” Christian leaders that would stand up for the lowly flock that “need their diapers changed” ( you have to read that part… Mahaney is an arrogant SOB . Sorry… He really is one.).
Good job Brent! I will be praying for the Lord to continue to bless you and your service to His kingdom!
“The church covered it up. The church (ed. SGM) protected Mr. Morales. … The church would cover up for Mr. Morales. … The church would protect a man who molested children. … The church did nothing. … They [the pastors] ignored the fact that heinous crimes had been committed.”] -Jessica Hall: Assistant State’s Attorney, Opening Statement; Monday, May 12, 2014
“This has done incalculable damage to ordinary Christians, not only those who’ve been abused but those who quite frankly get sick of the cover-ups and sick of the self-serving rhetoric at the top. I can understand why people drift away from the reformed faith on this score, and that’s why I think the leaders need to take more responsibility. It’s not, we’re not trying to score cheap points here, we are trying to make the point that our faith is being damaged by the need to preserve certain organizations and certain ministries. That’s a problem.” -Carl Trueman; Bully Pulpit: Abusive Pulpit, MOS, April 20, 2016
Ride high said:
Well I am looking at the past financial report dates (date signed by audit company) and I see:
– 12/13/15
– 11/24/14
– 12/20/13
So you are correct that their report should come out anytime now (but who is counting). ;-)
It will be interesting to see what this year’s report shows. Did they lose money again like they have done in the past 4 years? SGM is starting to get low on liquid assets which means that deficit spending can only go one so long.
Maybe SGM will be forced to push for sale of their share of the CLC building and be repaid at a lower rate?
Somewhereintime said:
It is shocking that apparently no judgment has occurred on SGM except perhaps financial.
Peter said that many would their (false leaders) shameful ways and the truth would be brought into disrepute. Thus it is now surprise that people are doing that with Mahaney.
Peach, thanks for the nice reply. I didn’t see it right away, I think it maybe was in moderation for a bit and I just saw the last posters hadn’t changed and didn’t look up the thread.
I am still thinking about it all. We have an asst pastor who preaches occasionally and the last two times it was all about what sinners we are and our hearts being so idolatrous. I started to have an instant knee jerk reaction to be honest…get me out of here, what about the holy spirit living in me and helping me. But hubby and I talked about it on the way home and really, it wasn’t like SGM, because it wasn’t controlling. PDI/SGM was all about control. This guy was really trying to help people not totally screw up their lives and marriages with porn and bitterness and addictions, and you could feel a sweet heart trying to pastor the flock, even if it wasn’t balanced the way I might have preferred. So the problem is more than doctrine, it was control with SGM. They had plenty of sound doctrine but often it was used to control. I mean Jesus did die on the cross, and the cross mattered, but something was majorly wrong with Mahaney blubbering about the cross and how if we were not passionate like him we were in sin. It was all control to beat down the flock.
Like I said I am still musing through the whole thing. May you never go back to the heaviness, but stay in the joy.
Somewhere- I actually read the thing. I even went to the WW and looked at the thread where Pruitt posted. I believe Pruitt that nobody knew then about the sex abuse cover ups, and his crack about nobody having time to keep up with Brent was right on. These man teach, pastor, and have families. At that point I don’t think we knew the blackmail was premeditated and that CJ and cronies actually asked a lawyer about outing JT, so when the panel said CJ gave way to a human moment of anger I think they were just duped.
Brent horrifies me. Confidential letters from Bo, Sande, and the private confession of JT plastered on his latest. He wonders why nobody will write back to him . If he had gotten permission to post these confidential emails I think he would have said so, but he didn’t. If he didn’t that is the lowest form of behavior.
I am thrilled and delighted that Carl Truman has seen the light and spoken out. I too would like to see him publicly say he was wrong about the 3 man panel report 5 years ago. But he has done a 180 turn and I am glad.
I posted three times here the link to Brent’s slobbering adulation of CJ in 2004, when he had been confronting CJ for 5 years at least according to Brent’s own writings. Brent misled and deceived the entire CLC congregation, not out of genuine ignorance or denial like Trueman, but with full knowledge of the truth. Yet Brent will not apologize for what he did, while writing long rants demanding Trueman apologize for his exoneration 5 years ago. Pure hypocrisy. At this point I think Brent is mentally ill, seriously, and I guess I’ll stop there. I could pick apart more from that post but why bother. I do not think God will bless his blog or his book until he admits to his own sins against the flock, and they were many.
Anyway, hope everybody is well and I still pray sometimes for all the victims. It is hard to watch tares among the wheat, but God knows best in allowing it.
From 5yrs — “Lately I’ve been thinking about how important it is to always remember that when I was saved/regenerated/born again, God placed in me a new heart and new spirit. I am more than just a sinner and idolater, and my first identity has to be my union with Christ.”
From Peach — “Thankfully, I was helped to see that a pure heart is something we can actually experience — a living reality, not some kind of Satanic deception. That we can walk with Father God in sweet and child-like simplicity…”
Thank you both for expressing your thoughts. They are an encouragement to me as I have had these same thoughts lately. Sinner, idolater, reprobate is no longer who we are, nor how we are identified by God. It is good to know that God is teaching me and others these truths at this time. It’s a confirmation that we are not off of the truth in our thinking. Praise God.
I think the problem comes in when our focus is set to anything / anyone but Jesus, ourselves included. It’s all about focus for me. Are you pointing me to Jesus/God or are you pointing me to myself?
Anyone else see the similarities to Soverign Grace’s attack on wiki church (Brent’s posting of CJ’s emails) and how the Democrats are responding to the “fake news” because they got caught with their pants down? Obama is now chastising media outlets for spreading ” gossip” of the Podesta emails. The issue isn’t the lying and cheating, but those that uncovered their hypocrisy.
What we’ve learned is that human nature trumps godliness when your life is a lie and you are trying to get people to look at everything else aside from your sin and wrong doing.
Sin is alive and well and continues to live unchecked in Sovereign Grace.
Somewhereintime.
I talked on the phone with one leader putting on a conference. With regard to the documents he was very upset it’s the reproach that the exposure brought on the church by someone posting them. He had little if any concern about Mahaney and other leaders’ hypocrisy that those documents showed.
In other words he was basically concerned with appearance and not heart and integrity. Sad when you see this.
Somewhere…I thought that, too.
Merry and Blessed Christmas to everyone who still looks in here. Praise God for the beauty of His holiness and goodness. And thanks to Him for His marvelous salvation through Christ.
Merry Christmas survivors!
Merry Christmas Jim (and everyone else).
Jim good to see you posting here occasionally.
A shame that this blog has died down but maybe it has served its main purpose. If nothing else it was great that it was popular (along with Jim’s Refuge blog) when the exposing documents came out. That people were reading these blogs worked out so well that so may became aware of the exposing documents.
A shame that a number despite seeing the exposed hypocrisy of SGM chose to ignore it and continue to support such a hypocritical group but you can only try and reason with people only so far. At least these people can’t say they weren’t warned and were aware of this but chose to ignore. They will one day have to give an account for supporting such sad hypocrisy.
I am glad that a number of former SGM churches chose to leave the SGM denonimation. It was good that some read the documents and didn’t chose to live in denial.
Sorry to a long comment on Christmas. Again merry Christmas.
A very Merry Christmas to all of you as well. Steve, this blog will be part of evangelical neo Calvinist history as long as there is an internet, and people starting to get free of top down authoritarian controlling churches will be blessed to find it.
It is so much bigger than SGM. I had lunch with a couple not long ago who had to leave their church (along with scores of other people) when what was once a nice place went somewhat off the rails. I heard stories to the tune of “submit or shut up” and “the pastor is 100% right and the ones disagreeing are 100% wrong” ( when there is clearly some truth on both sides, and if anything more with the criticized sheep). This church has Gospel Coalition books and materials and you’d think they would have learned a lesson watching SGM, but they didn’t.
Human nature never changes. There will always be church leaders who start out young and zealous and good hearted but end up hard and controlling and arrogant. For that reason, this blog will always be a helpful place to read, especially the old lead off posts to the threads. Thanks again to Kris and Guy, and Jim, for all you have done.
did anyone hear about Detwiler’s son going too the SGM leadership and claiming foul. I think his son Jonathan, said he was never consulted and as a member of the leadership he should have. they did an end run around him and that was wrong. He is confronting them with that now.
Yet God still sits on His throne, still loves us and saves and prepares a place for us where He will wipe away every tear.
Amen, Stunned. Praise His Name.
Whack-a-mole. No sooner do you rid the congregation of one authoritarian leader then another one shows up to take their place. It’s whack-a-mole all the way down. And what will you become if they put you in charge? Probably the next authoritarian mole.
Went to a Christmas eve service in a small church nearby on an impulse, having never been there before. The worship wasn’t polished, the old songs and carols were not “improved by Bob”. I found myself singing really singing for the first time in years. 4? 5?
The message was short and simple, Peace on earth and good will towards men. No “Come and learn more about our church” I am actually thinking of going back.
Perhaps I am finally starting to heal. been a long dark road.
Oh yes, the person sitting next to me struck up a conversation after the service. Turned out we had both gone to TAG back in the ’70s and she had admired CJ and the way he preached. I replied that I admired the man that CJ used to be, or at least pretended to be. ( since I have no idea when he started going off the rails)
Steve 240 nailed it I think. Power corrupts.
Battered-but-Unbroken — that is so wonderful to hear.
Peace and love to you on your healing journey.
Thanks Peach, that means much to me
It’s been a long time since I last visited here. Saddened to see the posts related to Gene Emerson (yes, it had been that long since my last visit).
Unfortunately, another SGM pastor had to recently step down from the Kansas City church after discovery of repeated sexual lapses over the last few years. He even served on the polity committee that came up with the revised church polity a few years ago.
I know this is not unique to SGM, but it is surprising that even pastors that have been in the thick of the SGM controversy over the last several years did not take appropriate precautions to guard themselves against further embarrassment for SGM, especially given all the teaching on humility, accountability, and confession of sin that is part and parcel of SGM.
Please pray for this man’s wife and children, particularly that they can find counsel outside SGM.
This is sad to see something like this happen again. BTW I remember when C.J. Mahaney would say how bad it was to use terms like “sexual lapses” vs. what the person really did. I believe his point was using a term like “sexual lapse” seems to minimize whatever occurred. With the internet and cell phones it so much easier for anyone including a pastor to do something like this now (not heard what the specifics are yet.
This might just be another example of “all the teaching on humility, accountability, and confession of sin that is part and parcel of SGM” only being applied and practiced by regular members and not by leadership especially the higher up the leader is. Also at least for a while a lot of SGM’s teaching was modeled based on the Puritans. This always baffled me that they would do this since the end result of the Puritans wasn’t that good. At a minimum you would think they would have wanted to try and see what the Puritans did wrong and try to avoid those same mistakes.
The Kansas City church’s website when I looked last night showed only two assistant pastors and not the Sr. Pastor. As Whirlwind pointed out I am sure this is especially hard on the pastor’s wife and children.
You didn’t give a name or the act but indicated it was a repeated act over a few years. Doesn’t I Tim 5:20 indicate that in a situation like this that this elder should be rebuked in the presence of all? The next verse indicates that this publicly rebuking should be done without favoritism.
@Steve240, I’m not close to the situation, but it is my understanding that the former pastor is supposed to make some statement before the congregation. The leadership from Minnesota did show up to inform the congregation of what had happened. I would assume one of those meetings is intended to serve the purpose of a public rebuke, but don’t know the details.
I used the term “sexual lapses” just trying to figure out the best way to describe the problem here. “Sexual sin” is equally appropriate. I didn’t give a more specific description since I’m not at the church and didn’t hear the report first hand. Rather than offer a specific description that someone might have later disputed, I just use a general description. I believe the congregation was given specifics around what happened rather than being offered a vague “sexual sin” reference.
Whirlwind
Thanks for clarifying. I wonder if SGM is also going to sweep this under the rug like they did with Gene Emerson? Shouldn’t the book of church order apply here like it was supposed to with Gene?
What did happen to Gene anyway?
I don’t think they did anything to Gene Emerson. He did step down and now is working as a pharmacist from what I have seen.
Five Years : “I found that the contempt and disdain for anybody who is a young earth creationist, thinks women elders are unscriptural, or thinks homosexuality is sin, (at Wartburg Watch) tended to be more than I could stomach.”
On close examination the moderators at the Wartburg Watch blog appear to ride the backs of church abuse victims enabling them to present, among other things, a liberal intepretation of scripture to include thestic evolution and woman in SBC church leadership. They say it is reference and verse bibliclal.
Apostle Paul: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.”
Apostle Paul: “Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,”
Apostle Paul: “For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires.”
More information on the Kansas City SGM Pastor who stepped down:
https://thouarttheman.org/2017/01/14/sovereign-grace-pastor-matthew-wassink-removed-not-c-j-mahaney/
Not a lot more information but some.
CAVR….
Nice to meet you.
Yes….but it is almost everywhere these days in churches.
I think I get it. I mean, I would really like to think there is no hell and “love wins” and everybody goes to heaven. I can feel the appeal of liberalism.
I knew a girl age 19 who had been raped regularly by her Dad from about age 8 to 12. She was a gentle sweet Christian, but told us she could not ever in her life trust a man or marry a man or engage in intimate relations with a man. She wanted romance and love, anybody would, but said she would have to find it with a lesbian lover. I get the pity for her, the empathy for her trauma, the Christians who say that is fine.
And some men are authoritarian arrogant jerks, and nice compassionate churches want to be sure women are protected and there is some feminine balance, so they start up the women elders. I get the concern, I really do.
And we don’t want to be narrow minded and not open to science “facts”, we want to be humble to all the great scientists, so we slide into evolution. (hey, get the book “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown, best book ever on this subject. Amazing and brilliant).
I get it with the caring hearts trying to help people and be sympathetic. But in the end, it is about God who wrote the bible. Is he wiser than us, more loving than us, more interested in people’s good than we can be? Was he smarter than us when He said things in the New Testament about homosexuality and gender differences? Was he trying to do what is best for us? Or do we know better?
Dan Allender who wrote the book The Wounded Heart (sex abuse victims) said somewhere that the hardest thing in his ministry is working with people who were terribly raped and molested and abused and have suffered so much, and at some point you have to get them to see that the biggest problem they have is their own sin. It is hard for the counselor I mean, the counselor wants to just offer sympathy and love and never confront any of the crappy adult coping strategies in the victims. (And yeah, you don’t rush with the confronting, you maybe take a while to listen to the pain before you bring up their bitterness or whatever). But ultimately we are sinners who need a savior, and there is one standard of holiness in the bible for all of us, no matter how deep our wounds and how severe our mistreatment from evil doers. Homosexuality is forbidden. So are women pastors/elders.
I don’t read at WW anymore so I can’t speak to how it is there these days. But I run into bad doctrine everywhere I go. It is like we have become nothing but a nation of victims.
It seems that Charles Schmitt of Immanuel’s Church in Silver Spring has been forced to leave due to allegations of sexual misconduct (thought to be homosexual in nature). I believe he ran in the same circles as Mahoney, Tomczak, etc. and split from them back in the 80s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel%27s_Church
They seem to be actively trying to edit this Wikipedia entry to keep it from noting the recent “resignation”, so access the Wikipedia entry history if there’s no relevant info.
Another old blog was uncovered at http://www.blogster.com/trashedandburned/do-not-understand
RT- back in 1982, CS’ wife Dottie wrote a book entitled “The Delight of Being His Daughter”. ( It was republished in 1998, just looked it up). The original had a chapter devoted to her husband having a “moral failure” after they were married and he was a church leader.
We were in a church back then that was loosely affiliated with the east coast shepherding movement; Larry, CJ, Schmitt, Bob Wright, and some of the Ft Lauderdale 5 spoke at various conferences. I read the book when it came out and was for sale at one of the conferences. Dottie was a plump friendly smiley speaker for the women, I heard her at least once.
Anyway, after that he had another moral failure and the big break up happened. Our pastor heard from the best of sources it was homosexual. So here we go again, eh? Maybe men who used their senior pastor authority not once but twice (at least) to seduce young men looking for a Daddy figure- and the second time after a period of supposed repentance- should be permanently removed from ministry for good if you ask me, but what do I know, I am not one of the anointed great ones on the cutting edge of the prophetic.
You would think CJ would have learned from this. When men do really perverted things with little boys or their own daughters, they should be removed for good from any possibility of doing it again, period end of discussion. You don’t tell wives that hubby repented and has to come back to the home with little girl. You don’t let Nate Morales just move on to the next set of temptations.
I have my own speculative opinions about CJ, given that he- as I have said before here- seems to have been an expert at seducing young men into total devotion to him, shaved head and all, and I thought it was really creepy the way young guys adored and flattered him. ( Detwiler did too). Not saying there was anything physical going on, please don’t mistake my comment, but it was just so emotionally “gay” sort of. I don’t know how to explain it, but it wasn’t true masculinity that we saw, more like a twisted sort of thing that wasn’t normal.
Anyway, I am so sorry for the young guys who get sucked into the web of these sociopaths. May God help them get past it and go on without bitterness.
I could be wrong about two separate events. I did some searching online and one old casual blog comment says Schmitt was kicked out of GOB in 1981. His wife’s book came out the next year…so maybe there was only the one known moral failure time period?
Doesn’t really matter. When a pastor gives way to homosexual sex with men under his care, there has to be so much wrong underneath that. That stems from a lot of deep rooted sin problems and the guy should never have been allowed to say he was sorry and go right back to pastoring. Just so so so so wrong.
Also, you have to ask how many victims never spoke up from fear and/or shame. Ugh. All so sickening.
Five Years : “I found that the contempt and disdain for anybody who is a young earth creationist, thinks women elders are unscriptural, or thinks homosexuality is sin, (at the Wartburg Watch blog) tended to be more than I could stomach.”
Five Years : “I can feel the appeal of liberalism.”
Darline Parsons and Debra Martin have been pushing a liberal feminist and an socialist agenda since shortly after their Wartburg Watch blog daube. Unfortunately the bible holds a secondary position with them. They have been interpreting it as they see fit. They believe they are qualified to do so. Unfortunately at the church victim’s expense.
Apostle Paul: “Such women are forever following new teachings, but they are never able to understand the truth; these teachers oppose the truth just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses. They have depraved minds and a counterfeit faith. But they won’t get away with this for long. Someday everyone will recognize what fools they are, just as with Jannes and Jambres.”
The truth always comes out, for those who have eyes and ears to perceive it. It can only be hoped and prayed for that those precious Christ followers that read at the Wartburg Watch blog will also read the scriptures for themselves and have the courage and discernment to see the truth and act accordingly. Out of the scriptures flow God’s truth, his understanding, compassion, forgiveness, and grace. Used improperly they bring bondage, fear, isolation, deception, control, defeat, and open the door to satan’s evil influences. This is what the moderators of the Wartburg Wartch blog have done. These women have made themselves greater than Moses and Apostle Paul. Their folly shall soon be known to all. Church abuse victims require the refreshing ointment of the pure word of God, not a misguiding scriptural interpretation.
Since about 2008, a historical phenomenon of mediation organizations to keep churches out of court exploded onto the scene, (much apparently is due to the internet exposure of the proliferation of church sexual abuse concealment) also discernment and spiritual abuse blogs began to appear in abundance in 2009 as well. As of 2017, many church attendants have become aware of the abundance of spiritual abuse in the christian church at large and its continued concealment. Many times church leaders once exposed, after a period of inactivity, are once again placed in a position of pastorial oversight. Many of their professional religious associates have been found supporting these reinstatements. This is causing many parishioners to rethink how they do church. Yet, sadly many have dispenced with it all-to-gether.
Jesus Christ: “And because lawlessness will abound, the love (NT greek word: agape) of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved”
Cgg Org: “When there is compromise, or the setting aside of God’s standard of righteousness and holiness, then the submissive love toward God and the sacrificial love toward man will begin to grow cold.
It is a simple cause-and-effect relationship.
In this prophecy, Jesus Christ is describing an ongoing breakdown in the relationship with God.
Since that most important relationship is the source of agape love, if it is waning, then it will be evident in other relationships.” (1)
(1)
http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/RA/k/1492/Is-Love-Many-Growing-Cold.htm
It was around 1981 that Charles Schmidt was kicked out of CLC (I believe Gathering of Believers at the time) originally due to being divisive but then the claim they discovered this homosexual sin. One pastor I talked with not too long ago after this occurred (around 1982) gave me some specific acts that Charles engaged in (or so he alleged).
I have always wondered just how true this might have been. I remember reading a reconciliation statement where Larry Tomczak and Che Ahn and some others reconciled with Schmitt and indicated they brought up some things in Schmitt’s past due Schmitt questioning some of Larry and C.J.’s harsher leadership/shepherding tactics.
This will be interesting to see how true this latest report is. I thought in the past people had posted here rumors of Schmitt doing this recently (as in not that one ago).
It certainly is one thing to consensually engage in this but quite another thing when a pastor uses his leadership position to seduce those under his care and especially even worse if they are under age boys. Time will tell.
Also Schmitt (along with his wife) are still listed as pastors on the church website. Thus wondering how true this allegation is. If Charles had stepped down I would figure he would no longer be on the church’s website but maybe harder to do with a founder.
CAVR….
Checked your link. I hope you are not into British Israel deception. Way to give WW a reason to dismiss everything else you said. You just shot yourself in the foot. Bummer.
We are not into that here. We don’t care if your great great great greats came from Shem or Ham or Japheth. We don’t care if they go back to the 12 tribes, or down the street from Ruth’s Pop in Moab, or next door to the Ethiopian Eunuch. We don’t care if they came from China or Africa or the Arctic circle. Black, white, Jew, gentile, DNA does not matter. “He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart”. Those of faith in Jesus are the Covenant people, bought by the blood of the true Passover lamb. That’s the only identity that matters. Please don’t try and introduce that B.I. cult here…enough people are trying to get over the SGM cult.
Steve- it was true. We heard it from a pastor who was personal friends with Larry and CJ.
Five Years: “But ultimately we are sinners who need a savior, and there is one standard of holiness in the bible for all of us, no matter how deep our wounds and how severe our mistreatment from evil doers.”
Five Years: “I don’t read at WW anymore so I can’t speak to how it is there these days. But I run into bad doctrine everywhere I go. It is like we have become nothing but a nation of victims.”
Almighty God has not called us to be victims but good servants. Being a good servant of our lord and savior Jesus Christ, being nourished by the words of the faith and sound biblical instruction. Paying close attention to our lives and to the holiness found in the scriptures. Let us persevere in these things, for by doing and heeding them we will save both ourselves and those who should be so inclined to hear our words.
Quote: “When there is compromise, or the setting aside of God’s standard of righteousness and holiness, then the submissive love toward God and the sacrificial love toward man will begin to grow cold. It is a simple cause-and-effect relationship. In this prophecy, Jesus Christ is describing an ongoing breakdown in the relationship with God. Since that most important relationship is the source of agape love, if it is waning, then it will be evident in other relationships.”
5years, unfortunately I believe you are incorrect in your present assessment/conclusion. My reference for my comment was only for what I quoted.
The material I quoted (above) was very good.
The quote had nothing to do with any other material that may be found on that web site. I did a web search for such a quote. I quoted my source. I read no other part of that web site. Please understand I am only responsible for the words I quoted. Nothing more, nothing less.
To upset your delicate sensibilities was not my intention.
I know absolutely nothing of what you write below:
Five Years: “Checked your link. I hope you are not into British Israel deception. Way to give WW a reason to dismiss everything else you said. You just shot yourself in the foot. Bummer. We are not into that here. We don’t care if your great great great greats came from Shem or Ham or Japheth. We don’t care if they go back to the 12 tribes, or down the street from Ruth’s Pop in Moab, or next door to the Ethiopian Eunuch. We don’t care if they came from China or Africa or the Arctic circle. Black, white, Jew, gentile, DNA does not matter. “He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart”. Those of faith in Jesus are the Covenant people, bought by the blood of the true Passover lamb. That’s the only identity that matters. Please don’t try and introduce that B.I. cult here…enough people are trying to get over the SGM cult.”
Suspicion and fear was/is a great part of SGM/SGC community.
Evidently I picked the wrong former SGM member to dialog with.
Brent has another post up:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/my-appeal-to-aronson-llc-to-carefully-audit-sovereign-grace.html
This may explain why SGM or now Sovereign Grace Churches hasn’t posted their financial statement yet. Brent has raised a number of questions with their auditing firm. SGC’s fiscal year ended 8/31/16.
CAVR….
Glad to hear you are not part of that church.
You made a mistake it is easy to make. I’ve done it myself plenty of times. You see some good quote and paste it somewhere, and then find out from the reaction that the source is a terrible source. I used to read and post on a politics blog maybe 10 years ago and one time I quoted some conservative thing that sounded good but it turned out to be from the leader of the KKK. (it wasn’t about race, I am not white supremacy!) I had to clarify that I didn’t know and am not in the KKK, but it did more harm than good to post my seemingly relevant quote.
Suspicion and fear? Delicate sensibilities? Herbert Armstrong and the Worldwide church of God was a terrible cult. Apparently this new church has split off from some of it, at a cursory skim, but still holds to some of it. I don’t have time to read it all, maybe they are now within the realm of orthodoxy; I don’t know. You can’t be too careful these days especially on the internet. Every person and every church and every website is fallen and imperfect, but some more than others, and some are cults.
Instead of bashing me, try to be more careful in the future with google searches. You have much to offer and I hope you can take my advice and learn from it, since I have made the same mistake so many times. I “liked” posts on FB a couple years ago a friend was posting from Tullian T’s (rhymes with religion and can’t spell it) book on grace, and I said nice things about the quotes on grace. Now I find out Tullian was in serious adultery and had some false grace concepts. The same friend started posting Driscoll. Sounds good, but I know what Driscoll is like. It’s complicated. Just try to be careful with sources.
Anyway, gotta run……
5years,
You are correct. Don’t receive what somebody says just because of who says it. It is better to search out for yourself to see whether the things said are actually true according to the Scriptures.
RT – Utterly devastating.
Steve240 – Go back and read RT’s link and then see if you can say what you said. How many young men did this predator victimize in the course of his very long life and ministry?
If you are a young man, or old man or a husband or a father or a single guy, and another man in a position of spiritual authority over you, perhaps decades older than you, sexually molests you, he is not just a homosexual engaging in consensual sex. He is a predator and YOU are a victim.
I doubt those who were in the CS scandal of the early 80’s have ever read the blogs. I doubt most of them are living today. Most were so devastated by the experience they probably don’t even know Christians today, even less follow current SGM scandals.
If I understand it correctly, and I beg to be proven wrong, loyal victims seduced by the profound deception of CS were excommunicated along with him.
There is no question, following the very public excommunication of CS by CLC debated loudly on the radio by other Christian leaders who sympathized with CS, one of whom was also engaged in sexual immorality, CLC would be VERY reluctant to publicly address Nate Morales or any other offender. This public fiasco not only damaged CLC, but destroyed those who were victimized.
If anyone knows ANYTHING about that time period, please come forward.
I am so grieved to read that link because a friend once told me that EXACT same story and I didn’t think it could be true. That friend is now dead.
Please talk.
just saying said:
Not quite sure what your point is or what you though I was saying. It sounds like you are operating under the assumption that this one person claimed in that link you cite is true. My statements were based on wondering just how true that statement was.
I agree that if someone does the actions you describe is a predator. If Charles Schmitt did do this and especially if he has a repeated pattern of seducing those under his leadership then I would agree that he shouldn’t ever be allowed to be a pastor. Again I am just wondering how true that allegation is.
One search indicates that Charles Schmitt was married to Dotty for 50 years which means Charles Schmitt must be in his 70’s. One would think at that age he wouldn’t be doing what is alleged but you never know.
Looking at Immanuel’s website this I certainly have seen changes. When I looked a few days ago Charles Schmitt was listed as “Pastor Emeritus” vs. being a pastor. I just looked again and he doesn’t appear to be shown as a pastor on their website (at least his picture isn’t shown like with the others) though Dotty Schmitt is still shown.
Thus sadly maybe there is some truth to that web posting. If so, quite sad. I am sure eventually more will come out though it wouldn’t surprise me if Immanuel’s tries to keep things hush hush. I would be quite embarrassing for it to be proved that their church’s founder did these type of actions especially if they were repeated actions.
CS’s last Sunday with the church was November 20. Here is Guy Carey’s sermon that day. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u23bYwRvhQc
Immanuel’s confirmed during their service today that Charles Schmitt has struggled with “inappropriate sexual contact with adult males for many years.” They stated that there had been “multiple victims and co-participants” and asked for any other victims to contact them. Just saying… is correct:
If you are a young man, or old man or a husband or a father or a single guy, and another man in a position of spiritual authority over you, perhaps decades older than you, sexually molests you, he is not just a homosexual engaging in consensual sex. He is a predator and YOU are a victim.
It is unfortunate that they don’t seem to see the truth in a statement like that but it is good that they showed some level of transparency today.
RT
Thanks for the update. This is sad to hear that Schmitt apparently did this for so long. Again I agree that under this circumstance it is being a predator or sexual harassment or crossing the lines like if a counselor had sex with one of his patients. I would say that in this case “struggled” is not the appropriate word to use anymore thus using struggling would be appropriate for someone who is a serial rapist or child molester.
A shame that it took so long for them to come to terms and admit this was the case with Schmitt and take action. I imagine it was hard for them to do any action against Schmitt with him being that church’s leader and founder.
This happening with Schmitt in my opinion basically confirms that what the leaders of CLC claimed about Charles Schmitt was true. If Schmitt did this for a while it is baffling how he was able to build such a large church etc.
Thanks you Stever240 for finally saying that.
When you scoff at the validity of the victim stories, it is like you are stabbing those of us who loved them.
from RT was a link posted Jan 21. I listened to the entire sermon. Seems the message was quite appropriate for the circumstances they were facing, or about to face, even if they may not have known quite what they were facing, or all that was to be revealed. God speaks to our actual need and addresses what we are about to see and face rather than what we think or guess is the circumstance at hand. This message spoke to me as earlier today I heard another message about threshing and wheat and chaff and fire to burn up the useless chaff, which is good for nothing after being separated from the wheat. I sit up and take notice when I hear something more than once in a short period of time, as I did today. The message I heard earlier was recorded several years ago by James M. Boyce (now deceased).
just saying said:
Just Saying
I am not sure how you can call my questioning or perhaps more along the lines of wanting to verify what one person is alleging as being “scoffing.” This information was on a blog site no one had heard about. Dictionary.com defines scoff as “to speak derisively; mock; jeer.” I don’t think I did that.
Seeing how SGM/CLC lacked ethics in other areas including blackmailing Larry Tomczak and wanting to hide this it wouldn’t have surprised me if SGM/CLC did something similar with Charles Schmitt to force him out. Larry’s reconcilation statement seemed to admit there was some at least exaggeration or bringing up of past events though in that same statement Charles Schmitt admitted his own sin (wasn’t specific). On the other hand, people have indicated that one of Dotty Schmitt’s books verifies that there was some sin done by Charles Schmitt. Thus it wasn’t all a fabrication.
It appears that Immanuel’s is only recently dealing with this situation since one internet wayback site showed the church indicating Schmitt being a pastor even early in this year. From what RT shared it sounds like Immanuel’s isn’t really rebuking Charles Schmitt for his continued sin as I Tim 5:20 calls for and as vs. 21 says to do without partiality. With this being something they are just recently dealing with maybe that is something they plan to do but I have my doubts.
I hope this clarifies what I was saying.
Church abuse victims revisited says:
January 18, 2017 at 12:54 pm
“Five Years : “I found that the contempt and disdain for anybody who is a young earth creationist, thinks women elders are unscriptural, or thinks homosexuality is sin, (at the Wartburg Watch blog) tended to be more than I could stomach.”
Darline Parsons and Debra Martin have been pushing a liberal feminist and an socialist agenda since shortly after their Wartburg Watch blog daube. Unfortunately the bible holds a secondary position with them. They have been interpreting it as they see fit. They believe they are qualified to do so. Unfortunately at the church victim’s expense.”
I would hope that you would first come to us with actual proof on the above. Both of us hold MBAs and are conservative in our politics as well as out economic views. My grandparents fled Russia to come to the States to flee communism and socialism. We refuse to discuss politics on our blog because we wish to focus on abuse issues and not get into fights over who should be President.
Our views on homosexuality would fit into an orthodox Christian point of view and if you take the time to read our blog you will find that we have outlined that in some detail.
You are correct. We believe that women can be elders. Also, Dee believes in an old earth. Deb isn’t sure what she believes in this area. We are egalitarian in our marriages. Dee fas been married for 36 years. Deb for 30. We cannot see how complementarians differ in any way from us in how we live out our marriages. All of our grown children are Christians as are the spouses of those who are married. All of our children have taken mission trips with churches and parachurch organizations. I personally lived for two years, with my husband, on the Navajo Indian Reservation.
Both os us are members of conservative churches.
We do not expect that all Christians would agree with us but we would hope that we would be represented truthfully. We have stood up agains the abuses within SGM and it makes me sad to think that you would not first come to us with your concerns. But we would ardently defend your right not to do so and wish only the best for you all.
Dee and Darline lose credibility here because they are outsiders who repeatedly refer to the SGM sex abuse lawsuit as absolute fact, when those who were there know that although there are some true stories in the lawsuit, for whom we have tremendous grief and sympathy, there are some terrible, vengeful works of fiction in there that completely destroyed the lives and health of those falsely accused.
With that in mind, I read everything on their site skeptically and for the victims of the sex abuse accusers, I view their site very grievously.
Don’t forget their MBAs.
DeeP-
What turned me off a while back was the contempt. It wasn’t so much the actual beliefs, but the ridicule towards those who believe differently.
I don’t agree with all sorts of things in Christianity; I’ve had to try and relate in certain situations with those who are glued to the prosperity teachers on TV. I do not believe in many Roman Catholic doctrines. I don’t agree with my own great husband on every single thing in life.
But I have a problem when I descend into contempt (which I can freely admit is easy to do). Instead, it should be “there but by the grace of God go I”. If a person’s beliefs really bother me I can pray God opens eyes and renews minds. When I read your site after it began, the contempt was thick, and as I recall that included the mods.
To be fair, I have not read at your site in a long time and its probably been years since I once posted there. Perhaps the tone has changed. Back when I read there I didn’t get a sense of people burdened for revival and sick about the state of the church and devoted to prayer. It was more like a contemptuous enlightened group hanging out together, with plenty of belittling cracks tossed in towards more conservative doctrines and people.
I don’t want to spend time going back years at WW looking for examples. Perhaps if this trend is still there you can be more alert. I am certainly guilty myself of looking at certain groups such as SGM and struggling with contempt, so maybe we can say “it takes one to know one” and I’ll work on the logs in my own eyes. But watch out for thinking you are on some sort of higher level of enlightenment than the average Christian. That is what leads to situations like SGM. You are not necessarily more discerning or more godly or more enlightened than old fashioned mundane Christian down the street or on a blog.
Just saying…..
I respect you and I wonder if you can be more specific.
Are you saying you think Loftness is innocent? Or C.L. the father? Can you name names…or initials?
I had sort of assumed it was all true since the lawyer apparently vetted them first. Your post surprised me. I am not in any way saying you are wrong.
5 YEARS –
” Perhaps the tone has changed. Back when I read there I didn’t get a sense of people burdened for revival and sick about the state of the church and devoted to prayer. It was more like a contemptuous enlightened group hanging out together, with plenty of belittling cracks tossed in towards more conservative doctrines and people. ”
I think that continues to this day. Sometimes I read wartburgwhiners – where comments are often reviewed. It makes you cringe.
Dee Paraons,
Your, “Hath God said….” attitude is having a dibilitating effect upon many of the readers visiting your Wartburg Watch blog.
5 Years: ” Perhaps the tone has changed. Back when I read there (i.e. the Wartburg Watch blog) I didn’t get a sense of people burdened for revival and sick about the state of the church and devoted to prayer. It was more like a contemptuous enlightened group hanging out together, with plenty of belittling cracks tossed in towards more conservative doctrines and people….”
Hopkins: “I think that continues to this day(i.e. at the Wartburg Watch blog)….It makes you cringe.
Continued listening to “Hath God said?” at the Wartburg Watch blog is not doing the victims of abusive religious environments much justice.
At the Wartburg Watch blog, a reader would do well to understand that the blog owners at this site, Dee Parsons and Debra Martin consistently play fast and loose with, “Hath God said” and are teaching others to do exactly the same thing. Their posts are replete with examples. One does not have to historically search far in this blog to discover this.
Church abuse victims should please understand that the Wartburg Watch blog owners, Dee Parsons and Debra Martin consistently put their own spin on bible scripture to satisfy their own agenda.
Apostle Paul: “Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction. For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.…”
Apostle Paul: “Hold on to the pattern of sound teaching you have heard from me, with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.”
Apostle Paul: “Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and obstacles that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Turn away from them. For such as these are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive….”
Church abuse victims revisited
I am curious what you are stating or implying about Wartburg Watch.
Are you implying that TWW should stop posting since what they expose can “cause divisions and obstacles?”
They certainly have exposed over the years a lot of hypocrisy in the church that perhaps without their doing this might not be that well known just like this blog has done over the years but with this blog focusing mostly on SGM/CLC. Are you thus saying that this blog is wrong since it would “cause divisions and obstacles?”
Without exposure, hypocritical leaders are enabled to continue.
If nothing else they help people question just like this blog has helped people do.
Steve240,
Apostle Paul: “….cause divisions and obstacles that are CONTRARY to the TEACHING you have LEARNED. Turn away from them…. “
Dave Harvey is on the move again… This time as a part time pastor in Naples , FL.
http://www.summitlife.com/blog/2017/1/17/welcome-dave-harvey-to-the-team
RT
Any further update on Charles Schmitt? Are they going to keep this quiet?
Dee P….
I wanted to respond more adequately. It is hard to explain what I mean. It isn’t just about woman elders or cracks about Calvinists or a list of doctrines. It is more a spiritual tone, an atmosphere.
This is an article by Diane Langberg:
http://dianelangberg.com/work/articles/ProfileofaShepherd-Counselor.pdf
She has worked with many abused people. And, as a woman, she would call her work pastoring souls, caring for them like Jesus the shepherd. I know you want to help victims. I am sure most of your site wants to help them. But there is some sort of Christlike character missing when I look at it (I went over and took a glance, and the tone seems to be the same as years ago). I understand that- my own fleshly tendency is to be cynical. I wish I was like Langberg. I hope you will read it, it is beautiful.
Here are some of her books if you want to learn more about helping the abused:
http://dianelangberg.com/work/books.html
Secondly, I think this article which has been posted here before, and perhaps you have seen it, deserves a prominent spot on your blog. “It takes two to tango”
http://stevecrosby.org/spiritual-abuse/spiritual-abuse-recovery-2
When speaking of adults- obviously not children who have been abused- there is something wrong inside the soul of the victim who could not say “No”, and who fell for the snake in the first place. I am tempted to copy the whole thing here (again); it is a message that your blog seems to need. Yes, of course, some church leaders out there have turned out to be wolves and hirelings and false teachers. But at one point do you and your readers focus- really focus- on the need for repentance inside the victims? Many of these people need at some point to point the finger at themselves. I’ve known abused adult women, and it is tough for them to face what brought them into it and kept them in, but it MUST be faced. At some point we are more than victims; we are messed up broken sinners who ignore warnings and intuition and are looking to people to fill holes in ourselves.
Just a couple suggestions. I am sure you mean well and are doing your best.
ah, why not, worth a repost in its entirety.
**********************
Spiritual Abuse: It Takes “Two to Tango”
How Does Spiritual Abuse Happen?
SPiritual Abuse – How to Overcome It
Overcoming Spiritual Abuse
And seven women shall take hold of one man in that day, saying, “We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach.” – Isa. 4:1, ESV
This is one of those obscure verses with lots of different opinions about what it might mean. I think it has application to the dynamics of spiritual abuse. Sometimes, we can be so broken in our soul, and struggling for identity and acceptance in the wrong places, that we allow those who promise those things for our compliance to their wishes, to spiritually abuse us.
Whether it’s literal or prophetic, I think it’s safe to say the image is of a time of such distress that normal cultural behaviors and expectations are upended. In Bible times, a woman was little more than a piece of property. A woman was a “non-person” in social standing until she married, and more specifically, until she had given birth to a son. Her worth, identity, and value was associated with providing a son. It was not uncommon in Mediterranean cultures of antiquity that a woman would be more bonded emotionally to her first-born son than her husband. I would like to make an application to some kingdom/church dynamics in the day in which we live.
The women in this prophetic image are so desperate for a sense of identity that they are willing to forgo normal cultural expectations of their rights for care in a marriage. They are even willing to share sexual intimacy with a man, just for the removal of reproach—just give us a “name” –a sense of identity and place in the societal order of things.
I have dealt with literally hundreds of people who have experienced spiritual abuse in unhealthy church environments. I am very sympathetic to their pain and have my own hair-curling horror stories I could tell of the things that have been done to me, my wife, and my children by “leaders” in the name of Jesus. I GET IT.
However, I’ve noticed a difference between those who are quickly restored to spiritual health, and those who often remain in reactionary woundedness for years or decades. Those who recover quickly admit that there was something broken or unwhole in themselves that was a “hook” for controllers and abusers to play on. They do not just blame the perpetrators of the injustice against them. Healthy, whole, functional, adults–especially fully resourced believers (2 Pet. 1:3)–are not easy to control, and less likely to be victims of spiritual abuse.
As real as the mistreatment we received may have been, somewhere along the way, abused individuals (assuming adults–not children or minors) failed to exercise their God-given abilities to protect themselves. God has given every mentally whole adult the “power of no” to protect ourselves. How much more so believers who have the indwelling Spirit? The trouble is, we are often not whole, and we often ignore the Spirit’s prompting because of the emotional cost of following what He says to us. Saying NO might cost our friends and social networks. Being Spirit-led takes more courage than people normally think, but then again, courage is one of the first evidences of being a regenerated, Spirit-filled, human being (Acts 1-4).
Being courageous in interpersonal human dynamics is often the hardest for many, especially those who by temperament do not like confrontation or who avoid unpleasant interpersonal situations. Remember, the blessing is not promised to “peace-lovers” but peace makers. Peace making, including making peace for one’s own soul, can be a a very relationally bloody process. It takes courage.
Folks could have said “no” to leaders. Why didn’t they? Could be lots of reasons for that. What was the “hook” in the soul that folks could not say “no”? Folks can leave a ministry or church. They don’t. Why? Could be lots of reasons, some very difficult to face. They could have confronted. They didn’t. Abuse does not happen in a psychological vacuum. Spiritual abuse has a pyscho-relational context that makes it possible. It takes two to tango:
The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule on their own authority; And My people love it so! But what will you do at the end of it? – Jer. 5:31, NASB
We cannot control how others treat us. We can control our responses to how others treat us. We are not hapless and helpless victims floating in a cosmos of powers that bop us around like a ping pong ball. That sense of victimhood and helplessness in the cosmos goes against everything the Bible says about God, us, His promises to us, and power in us. It is culturally popular to play the powerless-victim-card and to demand that folks who have hurt us be “punished,” but you will not find that thinking or spirit in the new testament.
In this blog, I’m not going to deal with the controlling, manipulative, abusive leadership side of the relational dynamic. I’ve dealt with that at length in my other writings and books. If you are looking for a “balanced” presentation, read my other works. I want to talk about the codependent victim side in this blog. This is not about “blaming the victims.” This is not about “who is guilty” and “who is not.” Purge that from your thinking. This is about asking self-reflective questions about human dynamics and psychological issues.
If I have been a victim of spiritual abuse, how did it happen? Are there areas in my soul that are unhealed or broken that make me particularly vulnerable to strong, controlling leaders? If so, God has provision to make me whole and to make sure it never happens again. If I don’t deal with this, I will likely just go from abuser to abuser, hoping to not be abused, but experiencing more cycles of spiritual abuse, which is irrational behavior. It’s like looking for a kinder, gentler, better managed, prison camp. You leave one, go to another, just to be hurt again by someone who is more skilled at using the whip on you than the last camp commandant. The question I have to ask, is what is it in me that is attracted to untrustworthy abusers?
Over the years I’ve rhetorically asked, “What could be so powerful, that normally functional, intelligent, sane, adults would allow themselves to be so clearly violated by corrupt spiritual leaders, to go so far as to support them with time, labor, and money–literally PAYING to be violated by them?” What causes their normal faculties of self-protection to go dormant? There has to be a hook in the soul somewhere, some element of “soul damage.” What is the “soul-Velcro” that makes the whole dynamic possible? It is not a matter of volition. It is normally unrecognized at a psychological level.
I believe it is related to the image in the Isaiah verse: an unmet and unresolved need for identity – “take away my reproach, give me a “name,” give me “status.”
People will allow themselves to be violated by controlling leaders in exchange for those leaders giving them a sense of false identity and status with something that has the appearance of success, notoriety, and superiority. By belonging to mighty apostle/prophet/teacher so-and-so’s “world changing,” “miracle producing,” “seventh-heaven,” “doctrinally pure,” “city-taking” “soul winning,” “open portal” “last-day revival,” “overcoming,” “man-child,” “Zadok priesthood,” “Joshua Generation,” of restored Davidic worshiper Ministries International, we can feel just a wee bit superior to others: We have a “name” that others do not.
This phenomenon is particularly strong in new converts or young believers. They often align themselves with a strongly gifted 50-plus-year-old as an authority figure. Since a young person is often not completely formed in their own sense of personhood, and is in the process of learning (if they ever do) that their real identity is in Christ, they can be particularly vulnerable to the ploys, charms, and manipulations of insecure, controlling, “recruiting,” older leaders.
A psychological swap is made: the leader gets sycophantic followers, and the followers get a sense of name, identity, and status from a person or an organization that should come from Christ alone. It’s all an unholy psychological transaction that can be dressed up in all kinds of great sounding Bible-lingo and proof texts.
Imagine I am a mature “father,” 50-years-old or more, with a strong “teaching gift,” a strong personality, charisma, the flow of spiritual manifestations, and decades of experience. Before me are 500+ young people between the ages of 18-30. These young people have various degrees of unhealed psychological issues and identity needs. I preach intensely and passionately for a week to these people about how everyone must submit to a spiritual father/apostle/leader/pastor (whatever) if they are to satisfy God, fulfill their destiny, or be all that God intends for them, and how they will never reach their potential if unconnected to an apostolic father, and how if they align themselves with a father they will be the last day generation that will change the world by their submission and intercession.
What kind of psychological pressure do you think might be on one of these young people (or psychologically fragmented adults) at the end of the week? What “father” happens to be available at the moment? Who is likely to accrue benefit in this scenario by preaching “sonship” to the vulnerable under the guise of revelation? Convenient is it not?
Do you think many of the folks in the crowd, especially a young person, would have the courage to stand on their own and resist the teaching from the 50-year-old father/expert and say firmly and respectfully: “No, thank you”? I highly doubt it.
Conclusion
I propose that to deny this psychological phenomenon of spiritual abuse is to be naïve. To have the lives of others under our power of influence is a sacred thing, not to be presumed upon. If we have a captive audience of immature, psychologically unwhole, and alienated young people older adults, (or lonely “ministers”!), looking for identity and belonging, and we pummel them for a week with the importance of submission and sonship, we are operating in a soulish predatory spirit, and a form of psychological manipulation and abuse, regardless of whatever justifying Bible verse we may believe.
Our only job is to preach Christ, lift up Christ, and make Him known and exalted in the understanding of hearers. We don’t preach “sonship” unto a man. We preach Christ-crucified, sonship unto Him, and let “sonship-type” relationships between believers at difference stages of maturity emerge as the Spirit births and develops them.
The glorious news of the gospel is that the second thing that is supposed to happen to a new convert after believing the good news is the healing of the broken heart, the broken souled (Isa. 61). Upon a real conversion, a new believer should be awakened to their true identity: in Christ and Christ alone. The overcomer in Christ is promised both a new individual name on the forehead, and the name of the city of God as well! We are to have a new sense of personal identity and a new sense of placement in a community (Rev. 3:12). In fact, a “double-new-identity.” Glory to God! The good news just gets better and better!
It is such a painfully sad situation to see so many sell their souls on altars of ambitious and insecure leaders who promise them a name, identity, status, greatness, and fame, all at the price of allowing themselves to be psychically violated.
It doesn’t have to be this way. If you have experienced spiritual abuse in a church situation, I urge you to forgive quickly, take responsibility for your own soul, repent to God for not using the tools he has given you to protect yourself, find people who can love you without agenda, help you find inner healing if you need it, and be restored to a vibrant and healthy kingdom life. There is a good future in God for you.
Parts of this blog are excerpted from our title: Father-Son Ministry: Reassessing Apostolic and Prophetic Perspectives, available in all formats at http://www.stevecrosby.com.
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Spiritual Abuse – How to be Restored
Overcoming Spiritual Abuse
Copyright 2013, Dr. Stephen R. Crosby, http://www.swordofthekingdom.com. Permission is granted to copy, forward, or distribute this article for non-commercial use only, as long as this copyright byline, in totality, is maintained in all duplications, copies, and link references. For reprint permission for any commercial use, in any form of media, please contact stephcros9@aol.com.
somewhere- looked at the link. The women’s study is using Beth Moore, an Arminian Dispy. Barely any doctrinal statement for the group at all. Quite a change for DH. (They appear to be into missions which is nice.)
“Dee P….
I wanted to respond more adequately. It is hard to explain what I mean. It isn’t just about woman elders or cracks about Calvinists or a list of doctrines. It is more a spiritual tone, an atmosphere.”
That’s exactly what I’ve sensed for a number of years now. Well said PDI
Steve240: Immanuel’s had a “Family Meeting” last night. Many in the congregation attended. Any recording was forbidden, and attendees were encouraged to refrain from “ungodly communication”. They are trying very hard to keep a lid on it, but were called out by one man in attendance for not acting in wisdom: “if this had been going on more than one time, then the people making decisions on how to proceed on this have not been making wise decisions.”
Last night was not an open forum (the man above spoke without “permission”). They confirmed no children were involved and “no laws were broken”.
The presbytery and board still have members of the Schmitt family, and it was mentioned that depending on progress, they are open to “ministry placement” once again for Charles Schmitt. The general feel was that people aren’t drinking the Kool-aid, but Immanuel’s is trying to exert a lot of control on how and when people express their concerns. There is another meeting scheduled for Feb 23.
How many times does a pastor have to slip into sodomy with men under his pastoral care before you permanently remove him from ministry? Ugh.
RT
Thanks for the update. Sad how they are trying to keep this all under wraps and perhaps sweep this under the carpet as the saying goes.
If Charles Schmitt really molested/harassed those under his care or that he was counseling or even members of his church I would question how they could claim “no laws were broken.” Would they be able to say that if he was doing this with female members of his church? It sounds like unethical behavior at best (crossing the counselor/counselee line).
I remember attending Immanuel’s when Larry was speaking there right after the documents came out and they had an insert in their church bulletin about this incident. It was basically a statement of wanting people to ignore and stay out of the SGM/CLC issues or that it really wasn’t our business etc. It wouldn’t surprise me if this type of policy was what allowed Charles Schmitt to get away and hide his actions for so long. It sounds like the “ungodly” communication warning you mentioned they gave this past Sunday night.
I see that Charles Schmitt’s wife (Dottie Schmitt) is still on the board. Who else in Charles family is still on the board?
If Charles Schmitt truly has a history of doing this and that sure seems to be the case then I don’t understand how they could even consider letting him come back in “ministry placement.” There is forgiveness but one just wonders how one could ever trust someone who did this repeatedly for so long.
Steve: his daughter Dianna Whittle is also on the Board of Trustees and the leadership team.. His other daughter Jenny does counseling at the church as well, which I’m sure makes it difficult for victims to get the help that they need.
Another younger pastor at the church was also named as a victim at the meeting. So now it is not only a counselor/counselee issue, but a workplace issue. They informed the entire congregation who it was. Totally wrong since he was a victim, but it seems like they are hoping to take the spotlight off of Charles. They are ruining many lives.
Tragic. Praying for that poor young man.
RT
Thanks for the additional information. We all know about nepotism and how it affected SGM and sad to see apparently something similar at Immanuel’s.
I am sure this all so embarrassing for the church especially if this has gone on for so long. (Possibly even before the incidents at CLC which was called Gathering at the time.)
I applaud the pastor who was willing to come forth to being a victim of this long time predator. By doing so, he has vindicated generations of young men who were too demoralized and ashamed to speak up. If you were enticed with loyalty and affection for this man who was supposed to be your spiritual leader, you need to hear that this was abusive. A man in this sort of spiritual position in your life shouldn’t exploit you in this way. He doesn’t love you. He was using you. Please seek help to untangle the confusion around this and how this could affect your perception of God. I would encourage you to involve the police and seek HIV testing. Victims please come forward and support those who have stepped out before you. This is not your disgrace. Even if you have embraced the homosexual lifestyle after your encounters with this man, you need to see the spiritual abuse of his using his spiritual position in this way. Please step up.
Steve240 said “If Charles Schmitt truly has a history of doing this and that sure seems to be the case then I don’t understand how they could even consider letting him come back in “ministry placement.”
I am sure “they” (whoever “they” are) feel sorry for his loss of income, and want to keep him in a paying position.
OutThere
One search of Charles Schmitt indicated that he was celebrating 50 years of marriage to his wife. One would figure with the age being married that long implies Charles Schmitt could retire but then again you never know.
I haven’t posted here for quite some time, mainly as I have not felt like I have had anything to add to the conversation. I went to see if Brent Detwiler had posted anything new and I was able to access his website. Perhaps he took it down. Anyone else able to access the site.
http://www.brentdetwiler.com
Just there and it worked.
Steve-I tried it again a couple of minutes ago. I was hoping he took it down.
This is an interesting article:
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2017/02/02/Son-of-lawyer-in-spanking-documentary-heads-US-megachurch-embroiled-in-sex-scandal
The article is stating “The son of John Smyth — the Cape Town lawyer accused of abusing boys at Christian holiday camps for decades — has just moved from South Africa to head a US “megachurch” emerging from a child sex abuse scandal.”
This is claiming that CLC’s new lead pastor PJ Smyth’s father has at least been accused of abusing boys. I did a Googles search and you can find other places commenting on this. I don’t remember this being pointed out before about PJ Smyth’s father.
Now I know it is the father and not PJ Smyth himself but a son can pick up certain things like this from his father. Just something for people to at least be aware of.
Did Brent ever sue anybody? It appeared he wanted to do so – maybe the church who fired him? Does that church still exist?
Steve- whoa. Good catch.
It does not mean the son is like the father. It could be the opposite- PJS having tremendous compassion for victims. To grow up in that sort of environment? How many times did the dad beat the son? If PJ escaped and had a revelation of true grace he could turn out to be a wonderful pastor, well able to smash the spirits of legalism and harshness that have infected CLC for decades.
http://mg.co.za/article/2017-02-02-christian-crusader-in-teen-abuse-scandal
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2017/02/02/Top-SA-legal-campaigner-abused-boys-for-decades-in-UK%E2%80%9A-says-documentary
CLC may have ended up with a pastor who is amazingly equipped to understand and help with the spiritual abuse the sheep suffered from the A team and other bad leaders. Or on the other hand, they may have opened the door to a nightmare.
It’ll be interesting to see what PJS says about this. If he covers it up and says nothing on behalf of his father’s victims, then bad bad sign.
More serious allegations on John Smyth: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/03/british-barrister-john-smyth-child-abuse-allegations-church-england-charged-zimbabwe-killing
Drew-I don’t think Brent ever sued anyone although I am sure he would have liked to. The church that he planted was north of Charlotte and folded after he was let go. Some of the people went to the Charlotte church, others who supported him went elsewhere.
Todd has a blog post on Smyth and sone here:
https://thouarttheman.org/2017/02/03/covenant-life-church-sure-knows-pickem/
Interesting but sad information.
As a child of a pedophile, I can say I would have handled this differently than the man above. It does NOT strike me as someone coming out being entirely open and honest. Watching it felt like spin control.
I can tell you 100% that we never felt any regret in being 100% open with my dad’s church and the churches we have been a part of. It was VERY hard on us that we brought Dad before the local police authorities, too and we’ve had to suffer many consequences of doing so but overall, I think that was the right move, too.
God can bring tremendous healing to victims of other pedophiles as they hear us speaking OPENLY and HONESTLY about what transpired in our family. I will NEVER forget the one elderly woman who came up to me after a church meeting where my brother and I spoke about Dad and what he had done. This woman, for the first time in her life, unburdened herself by telling me that she had been sexually molested as a small child. Imagine the shame that woman had carried 70+ years. Jesus used the openess to show her that she did NOT need to carry anymore shame.
Spin and information control does NOT lead to that kind of powerful healing. PJ, I beg you, join my family in the light and see what God can do.
PS. I felt sick and grieved watching that short video steve posted.
PPS. I regret that last two sentences. I have no idea what PJ is going through right now and I should not have judged him. Time will tell the work God is doing there, too. I am sorry, Brother and will be praying for your family. I still long for you to contact me here if you need to. It stinks to go through what your family is going through. Search for truth and you’ll find Jesus there, no matter how ugly it may get. My prayers are with your family and you.
Nice comment – it pretty easy, in these blogging times, to point the finger at other people without really knowing what’s going on in their insides.
I’m not personally familiar with CLC but a blog critical of TWW suggested they had “slimed” the members of CLC because of their pastor’s father.
I have read for years at both SGM Survivors and TWW; I highly value both blogs–it takes great courage for the blog hosts to allow unfiltered, uncensored comments. I do not share the view of some that TWW slimed the CLC congregation; I think after CLC’s negative experiences with celebrity leadership, I think there is concern that the immediate embrace of another celebrity raised some red flags.
All those parenting classes. All those clubs. All those homeschoolers. All those Christian teachers. All those classes. All the man hours in children’s ministry. All those spankings. All the kids chanting “Fine, thank you. How are you?” All of the conflict protecting kids from worldy media, activities and friends.
And in the end? What caused an entire generation of our children to stumble?
Answer for that Louisville.
In the end, you were the greatest threat to their souls.
Why won’t you answer for that?
Who was the greatest threat to their souls? Harold Camping? I feel like I missed something.
[ The children of life-long Catholics have deserted in mass apparently. I kinda think it’s more than just one man – other than Adam ]
Interesting –
http://www.salon.com/2015/07/28/why_millennials_are_abandoning_the_catholic_church_partner/
For the second generation adults in Sov Grace, who played by the rules and embraced the vision, having their leaders abandon their churches with no apology or repentance and no attempt at reconciliation has for the most part caused catastrophic distrust of the Christian world and all that goes with it.
Although some are stepping forward to a deeper level of faith towards God in an effort to find something authentic, an enormous percentage of them will take decades to heal spiritually.
“All those parenting classes. All those clubs. All those homeschoolers. All those Christian teachers. All those classes. All the man hours in children’s ministry. All those spankings. All the kids chanting “Fine, thank you. How are you?” All of the conflict protecting kids from worldy media, activities and friends.
And in the end? What caused an entire generation of our children to stumble?
Answer for that Louisville.”
My son attended the CLC school in the mid 2000’s. His class chose CJ Mahaney to address the class at graduation. This was one of the last group of seniors who would personally know CJ. He declined the offer saying that if he spoke at this graduation, he would have to do them all.
What an arrogant statement to make. I can’t think of a more critical moment for high school grads than at graduation. What a great opportunity to share the gospel of Jesus and give them the greatest/only hope as they step out into the world. He SHOULD have been speaking at ALL of them. But, as usual, he was off somewhere else having lunch with a new-found “friend”. He never was “among” us as scripture demands.
It’s a slow process, but little by little I’ve gotten better at not blaming others for my decisions and attitude. You can’t control a whole lot of things in life, you can control your attitude however. That’s what I’m always working on. Blaming my pastors for my spiritual inadequacies never helped me mature.
SGM’s budget is now up:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/churchplantmedia-cms/sovereign_grace_churches/sgc-2016-financial-statements.pdf
This year they didn’t actually lose money. Contributions are up slightly.
This is very sad. It would truly bring so much glory and honor to God to see in these comments how we used those painful times to draw closer to God. How the cross overcame what God has allowed in our lives and to let God do what He said He would do. Jesus never demanded any apologies from people He forgave and redeemed with His own life. Even when He was on the cross, He didn’t demand the guy next to Him to apologize much less say or else Lord will not bless you if you don’t apologize. He just said, today you will be with Me in paradise. I am most humbled when Jesus told the Pharisees “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” After that, He just told the woman that neither Jesus condemns her. My heart is broken and compelled to write to us all. We are given the same amount of time – 24 hours in a day everyday, no more no less and I see folks here spending so much time worrying who got a house, how much money is someone making or losing, etc. When there is so much need out there to walk the Word. I would like to be able to show God what I’ve done with the 24 hours He gave me and for Him to tell me welcome home faithful servant. I am sorry for what some of or all of you have gone through. God is in control and allowed for us to go through very hard times for a reason. I hope and pray that we use those very hard moments to draw closer to God and let mercy and grace flow through us to those who hurt us and love them just as Jesus commanded. If we love Jesus the way we say we do, it won’t be hard for us to love those people unconditionally who hurt us the most. I myself have gone through very painful times with people who I thought to trust. However, I let God use those moments to teach me how to love like Jesus. I pray for us all to do the same. And most of all, may we spend more time plucking the log out of our own eyes before we try to pluck for God the speck from other’s eyes. My name is Mary and that is my real name. If there is anything I can help any of us with anything at all, please fell free to reach out. God bless us all and peace be with you all. In His service, and faithfully all yours, Mary.
Mary – Thank you so much for your care.
As in the case of domestic violence, the key to healing is to denounce the abusers manipulative grip on your identity.
Denouncing spiritual abuse is the key to restoring ones identity in Christ.
As soon as we start calling wrong right, and start thinking it is all good and God is moving in their ministry, we are slipping back into cognitive dissonance and the Gospel is perverted.
It isn’t all good. It is wrong. And God chose to reveal that so that those manipulated by a perverted Gospel could be restored to Him.
Until they have acknowledged their abusive history and publicly repented, they are calling their victims liars and continuing to twist their minds.
We can forgive them. We can love them. But, we can’t call what is wrong right.
Trying some more.
When the leaders of SGM, who were abusive in the 1980’s and 1990’s at CLC (and other churches), who fled when confronted in 2012, deny they were abusive and worse yet tell Christian leaders and others that CLC members and current pastors are gossips and slanderers and even liars, and even claim THEY are persecuted, THEY are the slanderers. THEY are the accusers of the brethren.
WE are the brethren. Remember that everybody…no matter how many great songs they sing.
Sounds like we should do what they did to us. Have no contact with them except to rebuke them and call for repentance and otherwise treat them as unbelievers.
I don’t think there’s any healing going down that path – sadly. I gotta leave revenge to God.
“Avoid such men as these” 2 Tim 3.
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
I’ll venture to say that I can see “slanderous, brutal, and conceited” in the events of SGM past.
True Christians can do such things. They repent. True Christians can sin badly and be restored. There is a difference between weak and wicked. The weak sin and feel guilty and aware of sin; the wicked are without conscience and feel no guilt. Instead the wicked brutally accuse those who confront their sin and hypocrisy. The weak have enough conscience to feel guilty.
With hirelings, wolves, and false apostles there is no repentance, just continued seducing of the unstable or gullible.
Those deceived by them may be genuine Christians. It is impossible to know which Reformed Big Dogs are godly but deceived. Carl Trueman has done a 180 since his original exoneration of CJ and I still hope to see that with other leading figures. How many of them are in it for the money right now (ie, hirelings) I don’t know. Maybe none, maybe only few, maybe it is just powerful deception. CJ has “help”.
Anyway, I agree that we must forgive everybody, and leave no room for revenge, that belongs to God. No bitterness, no pride allowed. No licking our wounds anymore instead of facing our own problems that let us get sucked in, facing our own sins, and going on for God’s kingdom.
But at the same time, Paul commands us by the Holy Spirit to avoid such men as these. Which men? You will have to form your own opinion. But I venture to say that if the poster Mary is hanging out with Mahaney, she is disobeying scripture.
“But I venture to say that if the poster Mary is hanging out with Mahaney, she is disobeying scripture.”
5 years (I’m sad):
I go to Church of the Redeemer. I briefly went to Covenant Life in 2006, Journey’s and Church of the Redeemer, but very briefly because I spent most of my time overseas since then. I went through domestic violence in my life and learned to love like Jesus so I thought I’d share. I don’t know Mahaney and I don’t think I met any of the people here. I don’t know most acronyms here such as CJ, SGM, etc. I am just a concerned Christian obeying God. I am a Foreign Service Officer spending most of my time seems like in the front lines. I am just getting back from Afghanistan from being in and out of there and Pakistan since 2007 among other war-torn places. So I see first-hand how short life could be. I see the suffering of people after a drone attack for instance or almost being hit my RPG.
I do have 4 of my 9 lives left from serving our country but no matter how tough I get myself into, God is always been faithful even in the lowest point of my life. I am a single mother for more than 20 years, with 2 God-fearing gorgeous and highly educated daughters. My eldest is a NICU baby nurse and my youngest is finishing up Aerospace Engineering with a double major in Astro Physics. I literally walk the ends of earth for God and help the needy or people trying to endure casualties of war/civil war. My career allows me to do that. By the grace of God, I am well established. Probably to allow me to not worry to go after my dream job – to be a full time missionary. My kids are grown and well established. God has provided for my charity and my family all this time. He did allow for me to go through unfortunate and painful situation mostly to test how I see God in my life. I am not supposed to bring anything beyond the cross. Like I said, I am in the Foreign Service and although I live in Germantown, work in DC, I am only in the US no more than a year in between postings. So I don’t know anyone here. I do however, mean when I say that I am here for anything at all. Please feel free to reach out. I know I will be back overseas before this year ends if not by spring next year. Hopefully, they don’t send me back to the front lines again, then again, I am ready to see God and bask in His presence to my heart’s content. Wait till I see Barnabas.
I wasn’t going to respond to your comments but I just wanted to introduce myself and hopefully, some folks here would not judge me. I am praying for you and I have to love people for who they are instead of demanding how they should live their lives. I am glad to hear what you have to say about me and let you be you. I am not going to tell you what and/or what not to say. This is a free country and we are all entitled to our own opinions. Freedom is not something I take for granted. I am just passing by who overcame similar situation by the grace of God so I thought to share and offer support. I will continue to share my pains and encourage people to look beyond hard times because God is in control and have far better plans than if I had to call out people who hurt me and demand how they should live their lives. After all, God just didn’t allow me to overcome if I can’t be a testimony for others. They are dealt with. In closing, I would appreciate for some of us to leave our comments to ourselves, especially when we know nothing about a person. You guys, life is too short. Let’s spend what very brief time we have left here on earth for God. Sounds like a plan? I have not been walking long in my current faith but learned very quickly to follow God to help me cope especially with the bad things in my life. I had to learn fast. May the peace and the love of God be with us all.
By the way guys, it would be an honor and privilege for me to host a celebration of life event for all of us in my home sometime in the spring/summer soon at least before I go back overseas. I can have a luau for us like we do in the islands complete with roasted pig under lava rocks along with island dishes. So at least, you know that I am not a robot. You guys do not have to bring anything except hungry tummies. Besides, our family tradition will not allow you to bring anything until you actually spend a night in our guest rooms, then you may do dishes and/or bring something next time we have event. I think it would be a good break and just to enjoy each other’s company who have gone through similar situations. My home can accommodate at least 50 people. I’ve tried it last year. I hosted Christmas party for our church and accommodated more than 50 people comfortably. Please let me know.
Very kind of you, Mary.
what is PDI?
Thank you for your service to the country Mary.
May I suggest, given that you came to a blog called SGMsurvivors but don’t even know what SGM stands for, and given the short time you have in the states, that perhaps your desire to help people might best be met at the church you attend (which I don’t know anything about). There may be plenty of women there who could use a friend. I would be surprised if any of us who post here would reach out to an internet stranger to get help and counsel.
Up at the top is a link that says “the stories”. If you feel led to engage with SGM survivors, that might be a place to start.
SGM is Sovereign Grace Ministries, and CJ Mahaney is a pastor and was head of SGM for over 30 years. It used to be called PDI ( People of Destiny) back when I attended. Before that GOB (Gathering of Believers) and TAG (Take and Give). Other letters that might come up are T4G- Together for the Gospel, a parachurch group to which Mahaney belongs, and TGC-The Gospel Coalition, another group that has some spokespersons defending Mahaney. You might see AOR, which is the Ambassadors of Reconciliation, who tried to help with some of the mess. “The docs” is a 900 page wikileak of notes from SGM meetings, notes taken by a former leader named Brent Detwiler. And A, or A team, means apostles, the title they used for maybe 25 years. CLC was the Gaithersburg church Mahaney once senior pastored, then Josh Harris, now PJ Smyth,
Mary, you know how you said life is short? This is strictly my opinion, but I would not advise you start trying to figure this all out. It’ll take so long just to read relevant posts and you might be better off just finding good books about God to focus on. If you don’t need to be distracted by this, then don’t even start would be my advice.
Ok 5 Years. we do have common situation, but myself not by people you are saying here. I do not need books and I do not need to know people you are saying here. I am 52 years old and been around the block a few times. I do not to need to know about the people here. What I do know is domestic violence and molest abuse as I went through those and you would be surprised at what else I’ve gone through in my earthly life. However, I let God be the God that He is and heal. So in my walk, I’m just trying to support people who went through the same. As old as I am, I do not have any desire to figure all these out and would neither dare to figure any of these out because that is the Lord’s job. There isn’t/aren’t any books for myself to focus on as I’ve tried those myself already. I have over a thousand books in my Kindle and library but only need one – and that is the Bible. I was stupid to try to find answers in all of those books and none of them worked. I just need to thank God for whatever I went through. He already delivered and healed me some couple of thousand years ago before I even came into being, I just needed to know and behold that. My healing came from reaching out to people to help instead of focusing on how people hurt me or how painful the situations I’ve gotten myself into. Nonetheless, I will leave you peace knowing I’m doing my share and offering support. You obviously have yet to overcome and heal yourself and I will leave you to that, but please do not take too long to let those people who hurt you deal with what God has already done and start to live the life God has set out for you. I will stay out of your way in the meantime. However, my offer stands. Should any of you need anything at all, I am here, please free to reach out. I don’t have any advice for any of us and I wouldn’t dare impose any should I even think I have any. You are correct however, I got distracted in my walk and shared my journey in this site. I just thought to look to this site, to the people whom I thought to have gone through the same pains. But thought wrong and admit that. I am better off going through the same road I am at the moment. That seems to bring me joy, peace and blessings I can’t contain. You are correct, I thought I could get from the thousand of books I read answers or healing. None of them worked until I actually reached out people who go through mess in life and try to help without fixing what they went though or calling out the people who hurt them. Peace be with you and don’t be too hard on God. That was what God taught me. I thought to be hard on the people who hurt me but found out that it was God after all I was being hard on in doing so. He told me that they are already dealt with. I can’t tell you enough but will say it again, peace be with you.
Saw this meme:
“NEVER BE A PRISONER OF YOUR PAST. IT WAS JUST A LESSON, NOT A LIFE SENTENCE.”
I couldn’t help but respond. Buzz this meme is breathtaking. Talking from first-hand, I almost lost a lot my livelihood at least had I not learned the lesson God was trying to tell me all along when He allowed my hurt times. I can’t control people how they were/are to me, it was/is up to me to love them and pray for them nonetheless because they apparently do not know what they do even if in my sight they should know better. I had to listen and learn the lesson really quickly because I was starting to lose everything. However, as quickly as I learned the lesson, God was more than quickly to restore everything and even more I couldn’t contain. Now I am praying to live on 10 percent and give Him back the 90…. I don’t/didn’t get PTSD in the front lines however, I still get the occasional nightmares of what I’ve gone through especially with the domestic violence. And since I am not totally healed, I do not have advice for any of us except to not take too long to learn the lesson of hard times and let God be the awesome God that He is…. I love God too much and I’m such a ding dong because people look at me like I’m crazy loving on the people especially the not so pleasant ones. I am still trying to figure out how/why I am here. I don’t know but I do love the people here too much and I don’t know why and do not need to know why either. I have this bookmarked and for the longest could care less back then and even recently, but God has been speaking to my heart especially to offer support whatever support it may be. I even had to tell God, I don’t know these people, and I don’t think I should butt in. I let what I had to say go and obey. I do have some ties with Covenant Life. I had/have good friends to go there back then and maybe still do now but lost touch because of my career. I came close to making Cove Life my home church in 2006 especially while overseas but found grace and peace at Church of the Redeemer, my home now for almost 10 years. God has been speaking to me. He is very sad because God has very great plans for some of us here and some of us are very shackled. I am still trying to figure out why I ended up here. Thank you Buzz, I’m still light years away from figuring things out. I will add this to my inquiry list when I do go home to be with God.
Brent wrote an article on SGM / SGC’s annual finance report. As Steve240 mentioned earlier “This year they didn’t actually lose money. Contributions are up slightly.” But wait…It appears there is one donor who contributed $300,000+ and everyone else combined gave $23,000.
I don’t know if that kind of large single donation is typical for SGM / SGC – and I suppose maybe the single donor could be an organization…? Anyway, is it fair to say SGM / SGC is still being propped up?
Dear Todd Wilhelm,
You’re welcome to have my name. It’s right there next in your in box next to my messages. But I can’t share the name of any (non-cult) churches I have attended. They have nothing to do with any of these cults and I don’t have the liberty of sharing their names. I haven’t discussed any of these cults with any of these pastors because I don’t want to drag them through the cesspool. I don’t see that my age has anything to do with reporting on cult activity. I haven’t asked you any of these questions and this information about you doesn’t matter to me. You’re welcome to use the material I send you and I’ll be glad to network with you to expose the behavior of SGM leaders, but I am very uncomfortable with direction this conversation is going.
We got off to a good start, then you caught me off guard. I think it’s very inappropriate of you as an editor try to pry into the personal life of a potential contributor. I haven’t asked you about your church affiliation or your age and I’m not going to ask. Nor did you offer this information about yourself as a reciprication before inquiring of me. Nor have any of the editors or reporters I have networked with asked me for this type of sensitive information. I think you’re being paranoid and hyper projecting suspicion onto me. This is the type of treatment I experienced at the hands of those cult leaders.
As someone who reports on cults, you should know that sensitive personal information is exactly that, personal and sensitive. One slip of the lip and the source will be subject to vicious retaliation. Very typically, this involves attacking the source’s church, family, or work relationships. Read up on the history of Cult Awareness Network and F.A.C.T. Net. Both of these cult watching organizations had their files seized by the very cult they were exposing. Now all that information about their sources is in the hands of their source’s enemies.
Back up and punt.
I really appreciate the work you’re doing at Thou Art the Man. I haven’t kept up with the situation at SGM/Covenant Life in a while. Your posts have gone a long way toward helping me play catchup ball and I have relayed key material from your site to various investigative reporters I’ve been corresponding with. Your report on PJ and Zimbabwe was particularly enlightening. One news outlet we have already discussed is very probably on the verge of cracking the PJ case wide open thanks to your efforts. You have a lot of credibility as a blogger, so I would prefer you share my material rather than posting it on a message board. But if you don’t want to use my material, I guess I’ll have to go with Plan B.
Seriously dude, calm down. I certainly hope you haven’t treated anyone else the way you treated me and I certainly hope you don’t do this to anyone else. Oh and keep up the good work.
Cult Researcher
Ellen DeGeneres usually doesn’t use her show’s airtime to respond to headlines about her. She made an exception with conservative minister Larry Tomczak. Who is Larry Tomczak, why is he celebrity baiting, and why did he target DeGeneres?
Larry Tomczak and his ministry partner C.J. Mahaney used their status as leaders of the Jesus Movement to launch a DC area church. First called TAG, then Gathering of Believers, then People of Destiny. This was followed by People of Destiny Magazine, a very popular magazine among young people in the Charismatic Movement. Meanwhile, Tomczak and Mahaney remained popular on the speaker circuit and Tomczak’s testimony book, “Clap Your Hands” was a bestseller. Things went sour for Tomczak when Mahaney embraced Reformed Theology, outmaneuvered Tomczak for control of the denomination, and changed the name to Sovereign Grace. Meanwhile, Tomczak’s son was sexually involved with a girl in the church. According to the parents of the girl, Tomczak required them to park their car down the street, go around to the back of his house, and sneak into the basement through a window so he could break the news to them in secret. After spending 10 years in exile pastoring a small Pentacostal church in Atlanta, Tomczak had what he considers a divine appointment with Rice Broocks while he was in Vanderbilt Hospital for eye treatment. Tomczak met Broocks while Broocks was right hand man for Bob Weiner, founder of the notorious Maranatha campus cult.
After numerous extremely negative articles in the local and national media – including investigations by The Wall Street Journal, Christianity Today, and Chronicle of Higher Education – board members disbanded Maranatha. A few years later, they regrouped as Morning Star. Morning Star was Maranatha minus Bob Weiner. Former Maranatha members outed Morning Star, so they changed the name to Every Nation and Broocks was temporarily sidelined as damage control. Meanwhile, Champions for Christ, a sports ministry founded by Broocks and Greg Ball, made just as many negative headlines as Maranatha, including investigations by Sports Illustrated, The Chicago Tribune, and The Florida Times-Union. Washington Redskins quarterback and NFL hall of famer Darryl Green made high profile comments defending Champions and Ball. Ball was Broocks’ college roommate and Maranatha’s chief evangelist. At one time, Ball was America’s #1 locker room evangelist. The reputation of Champions for Christ – and the lucrative donor base of professional athletes – began circling the drain because of Ball’s associate and Austin Wranglers owner Greg Feste. So Broocks and his longtime Maranatha buddy Phil Bonasso threw Ball under the bus. Brunell and Green threw Ball under the bus too. Later, when Bonasso, Chief Financial Officer of the denomination, was investigated for embezzlement, Broocks threw him under the bus. Thrown under the bus, we’ll come back to that.
Then it was Mahaney’s turn to make negative headlines. Brent Detwiler, #3 man in Sovereign Grace for many years, went public about his struggles to hold Mahaney accountable for his behavior. Then the flagship church withdrew from the denomination. A group of sexual abuse victims and their parents filed a class action lawsuit against Sovereign Grace, accusing the leadership of a longterm unofficial policy of covering up pedophelia and even revictimizing the victims. This was followed by a high profile criminal case involving Nate Morales. Mahaney temporarily stepped down as president, then moved the denomination’s headquarters to Kentucky to escape the heat. This was followed by a mass exodus of Sovereign Grace churches. Josh Harris, author of the popular and controversial dating advice book,”I Kissed Dating Goodbye,” Mahaney’s longtime disciple, and Mahaney’s handpicked replacement as head of the denomination’s flagship church, Covenant Life, fled to Canada. SNAP protested when Mahaney was allowed to return to the stage at a Together for the Gospel conference. Harris’s replacement was PJ Smyth, recommended by Terry Virgo. No sooner than he took office, he caught wind of Washingtonian magazine investigation into the lawsuit, held an emergency members only meeting, and attributed the church’s negative media attention to Satan. No sooner than he declared the congregation would move on from the scandal, another Covenant Life member was arrested for pedophila. Meanwhile, the attorney in the class action lawsuit has vowed to file in another state. The dust had hardly settled on the latest pedophilia arrest when headlines in the UK started screaming about PJ’s father, John Smyth, administering thousands of bloody cannings to dozens of boys over a period of decades on 2 continents.
Meanwhile, the pedophile scandal has been the subject of articles and interviews in Time magazine, The Washington Post newspaper, The Louisville Courier Journal newspaper, WJLA Channel 7 television, and WAMU radio. It was also the subject of testimony in a state senate hearing. The religion watchdog blogs and the ex-member support group forums are still buzzing.
Tomczak’s own daughter was a plaintiff in the lawsuit. She accused him of forcing her to strip to be spanked until she was 22 years old, when she finally fled his home. She also accused him of punching and hitting her in the face, arm, and stomach, leaving bruises, claiming he instructed her lie and attribute the bruises to a fall. Tomczak is the author of parent advice book, “God, the Rod, and Your Child’s Bod.” (This wasn’t Tomczak’s first lawsuit. When Tomczak publicly repeated the widespread, longstanding rumor that “I’m OK, You’re OK” author Thomas Harris committed suicide, Harris sued for $19,000,000. The cover of Christianity Today – or maybe it was Charisma Magazine – called Tomczak “The $19,000,000 Man.”)
Can you guess what Broocks did next? That’s right, he threw Tomczak under the bus. In addition to Broocks’ policy of throwing people under the bus, he couldn’t risk Tomczak endangering his rise as a leading apologetics author and his move into film.
The surprise hit religious apologetics drama film “God’s Not Dead” netted $62,000,000. And that’s just in cinemas. That figure is going to get much higher because it will eventually be shown in every conservative evangelical church in America. It’s budget was only $2,000,000. It has been seen by 25,000,000 people and its Facebook page has 8,000,000 likes. The movie was based a book by Rice Broocks and spawned a sequel, “God’s Not Dead 2.” Odds are good there’s going to be a “God’s Not Dead 3.” And “God’s Not Dead 4” and “God’s Not Dead 5.” Broocks was intimately involved in the scripting and financing of the first film. Broocks mentors the popular Christian rock band NewsBoys, Brunell financed one of their albums, and band members appeared in the first film. Broocks’ latest book, “Man Myth Messiah,” ties in with “God’s Not Dead 2.” Broocks is the 3rd wave of Christian apologetics after Josh McDowell and Ravi Zacharias. He has vowed to raise an army of 1,000,000 campus apologetics.
Tomczak’s website and Wikipedia page no longer list a congregation. A shepherd with no sheep. Hmm. So what does Tomczak do next? He lost his gig with Sovereign Grace. He lost his gig with Morning Star. In more than one recent guest editorial for Christianity Today (or Charisma or The Christian Post), he had referred to Bob Weiner as his good friend. But Weiner’s reputation would taint Tomczak. When he went to Atlanta, he was viewed as a victim. If he returned to Atlanta, he would be viewed as a loser. He tried to form an alliance with the evangelical leaders of Nashville. This went nowhere. If he tried to go on the speaking circuit, the lawsuit and Internet stories about his son would haunt him, as would questions about his break with Broocks.
So he bills himself as a cultural commentator and taps into the Religious Right support base by selling videos and attacking American culture. Sexual issues, especially homosexuality and abortion, are among the chief hot buttons for anyone who wants to galvanize – or milk – grassroots religious conservatives. Hollywood and Washington make easy targets. Same goes for gay Miss America contestants.
Conspicuously absent from Tomczak’s list of targets are his fellow media ministers who take up offerings in public while rendezvousing with mistresses and prostitutes in private. Another scurge absent from Tomczak’s videos and columns are pedophiles within the church. Seems gay talk show hosts and gay beauty pagent contestants are an abomination before heaven and a threat to America and the church. False prophets and predators among the sheep, not so much.
Enter Ellen DeGeneres. He attacks. She responds. He counters. Result: Ellen DeGeneres inadvertently helps Larry Tomczak sell more videos.
Mahaney has set up camp in my home state of Kentucky and I’m not comfortable with that. For all I know, he’ll start one of his churches in my hometown someday. He took a move of God and a thriving church and turned it into a denomination that commits classic Shepherding Movement practices. He used office politics to gain control of an organization and drive out its cofounder. He abandoned the scriptural Gospel and chased after a theology, a movement, and a group of leaders. He has intimate knowledge, backed up by copious files, of child abuse cases and their corresponding coverups that date back decades, and has to this day denied justice and healing to the victims; worse, he violated the commandment “Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor” by recriminating plaintiffs through public relations guerilla warfare. He essentially bought his way into favor with a seminary president, who in turn ushered him into relationships with other movers and shakers. What else? That’s enough.
Mahaney and Tomczak were tight with Bob Weiner and they often spoke at our conferences. (As did Winkey Pratney, Loren Cunningham, Tony Solerno, and other youth leaders.) CJ was disinvited after he taught “divine tension” at one of our conferences. According to this doctrine, the various members of the Fivefold Ministry engage in a divine tug of war with each other to determine the direction and emphasis of the church, and somehow the Holy Spirit uses their gifts and callings to sort things out for them. He was told, “Is ‘divine tension’ working out for you in SGM? If not, why are you bring it to us?” Mahaney was later invited back to one of our conferences, though not to speak, and took communion together with Weiner in front of us. Tomczak stood up at a Maranatha board meeting, looked down at Weiner, and said, “This is the most ungodly, abominable thing I’ve ever seen. When are you going to stop this, Bob? … I said, this is the ungodly, abominable thing I’ve ever seen. When are you going to stop this, Bob?” But to this day, in his columns for prominent Christian magazines like Christianity Today, Christian Post, and Charisma, he continues to refer to Weiner as “my good friend.” Ironically, on Tomczak’s watch, SGM kept records of even the pettiest offenses and rubbed these offenses in the faces of the sheep to maintain control of them; and set up the pyramid leadership structure for which the The Fort Lauderdale Five were famous.
I knew Weiner, Rice Broocks, and Greg Ball. Former board members and former local elders shared horror stories with me about Weiner’s berserk, relatiatory stunts against leaders who fled Maranatha. When one of them moved to Dallas, he called for a meeting with the city’s church leadership. When everyone had gathered, Weiner was asked, “Why have you called us here?” Weiner said, “He caused trouble with our organization and he might cause trouble here in Dallas.” Weiner was told, “We’ll decide who might cause trouble.” The meeting ended as soon as it started. The pastor who set Weiner straight walked into the next room. The former board member was waiting with his notebook full of points to answer Weiner’s accusations. He was told, “Put your notebook away son, we’re finished here.” Then everyone left.
I knew Rice Broocks and Greg Ball. They both revealed their true selves to me in the most shocking manner, and of course, always behind closed doors. When headlines over Champions for Christ were screaming “Cult!,” Broocks, Ball, and Ball’s disciple Darryl Green of the Washington Reskins and the NFL Hall of Fame, all kept a flawless poker face, Green even getting indignant, pretending they had never heard the word cult in reference to an organization they led. The press never caught them in that lie. When Broocks expelled Ball, Green and Mark Brunell, who had so many times publically hailed Ball as their hero and defended him against criticism of financially exploiting high profile athletes, never breathed his name in public again. I was never able to convince any reporters to do a followup with the some embarrassing questions. Broocks has found fame and fortune with his popular movie series. Never mind the scriptural mandate of sharing the Gospel. Instead, let’s get our brethren excited about kicking secular booty.
Broocks was Maranatha’s leading faith teacher and was an early disciple of Kenneth Copeland. Broocks used his connection with Copeland to arrange speaking engagements with Copeland and Copeland’s associates Jerry Sevile and Charles Capps. It was at a Maranatha conference that Copeland looked down at exiled Guatemalan dictator Rios Montt and prophesied, “Una Mas. Once more you will be president of Guatemala.” Broocks is also closely associated with Peter Wagner. What I’m about to tell you next, I’m not making it up. At a spiritual warfare seminar introduced by Jack Hayford as “spiritual mapping,” Wagner said the Emperor of Japan mates with the chief goddess of Japan and in so doing give her permission to operate in Japan. Many years later, in an interview with NPR, he was still telling this story.
Cult Researcher
At the time controversies over Charles Mahaney came to head, at least 100 Sovereign Grace pastors had been forced to resign. Sometimes by denomination executives, sometimes by local colleagues. The most famous case, besides Larry Tomczak, is “Friendly Fire.” After reading enough stories about them and testimonies by them, it becomes obvious that the vast majority of these cases were office coups. The accusations and confessions were general sins like pride and deception rather than specific, scripturally forbidden acts committed against identified people. The official version offered to the congregation was that the “fallen” pastor was being restored. Of course, they were never allowed to return to full time ministry, especially not in the same church. Lest they eventually realize the ugly truth and orchestrate a counter coup against the scoundrels who outmaneuvered them. Taking advantage of the negative public focus on Mahaney, Sovereign Grace co-founder Larry Tomczak, still in exile, cited these 100 victims to make the case that his ouster by Mananey and his henchmen was the rule rather than the exception. As part of damage control against the negative publicity, Mahaney and all the men involved in forcing Tomczak out flew to Nashville and took turns slobbering on Tomczak’s shoulder. The smart thing to do would have been to bring Tomczak back as head of the flagship church and head of the denomination. This would have quelled the storm driven by criticism from longtime #3 man Brent Detwiler, flagship pastor Josh Harris, the ex member support forums like SGM Survivors, the religion watchdog blogs like Warthburg Report and Thou Art the Man, and the Christian and mainstream media. Instead, Mahaney fled to Louisville, Harris pulled the flagship out of the denomination, many member churches followed suit, the lawsuit hit, executives and pastors alike fell on their sword, attendance at Covenant Life from 3000 to 500, and Harris fled to Canada. Enter, PJ Smyth. Wonder how long PJ will last in a culture where treachery, backstabbing, and scapegoating are standard operating procedure and the landscape is full of lay and minister carnage.
Cult Researcher
“I was made aware of a meeting which took place in Bulawayo, Zimbabwe in 1993. This meeting was requested by PJ Smyth [ THIS MEETING WAS REQUESTED BY PJ SMYTH – emphasis added ]. In attendance at the meeting were PJ Smyth, his father John Smyth, and a group of five men, one of whom was a human rights attorney [ HUMAN RIGHTS ATTORNEY – emphasis added ]. These five men had conducted an intensive investigation of John Smyth after charges of horrid abuse of young boys came to light … At this meeting, a lengthy document containing the results of this five-man investigative team [ LENGTHY DOCUMENT CONTAINING THE RESULTS OF THIS FIVE-MAN INVESTIGATIVE TEAM – emphasis added ] was discussed. The document included detailed accounts of alleged crimes perpetrated by John Smyth … Sometime after the 1993 meeting at which the investigative team thoroughly briefed PJ and John Smyth of their findings, PJ Smyth wrote a letter to this team [ PJ SMYTH WROTE A LETTER TO HIS TEAM – emphasis added ]. In the letter, he stated he would continue to support his father based on the ‘Gamaliel principle.’ … It seems that some pastors from Zimbabwe emailed PJ Smyth a few weeks ago [ PASTORS FROM ZIMBABWE EMAILED PJ SMYTH A FEW WEEKS AGO – emphasis added ], reminding him of the meeting he had in 1993.” – Thou Art the Man
Cult Researcher
In December 2014, PJ Smyth was eating with Terry Virgo’s son in law, Stephen van Ryn of Jubilee church in Cape Town (?). PJ describes this relationship as “best mates.” PJ shared the direction he saw his ministry going. He saw himself moving away from planting and directing a network of churches and helping one church achieve its goals. He didn’t see himself staying in South Africa. He said probably UK, but possibly the US. Virgo’s son in law suggested Covenant Life in the DC area and listed several reasons the position would be ideal for him – great church, Reformed-Charismatic, east coast (easier for international travel), big city. PJ didn’t think too much of this proposal. In January 2015, Virgo’s son in law called PJ and excitedly told him Covenant Life had to be the place because Josh Harris, Charles Mahaney’s replacement as Sovereign Grace flagship pastor, had announced his resignation only a month after their conversation. PJ responded by proposing a test. Neither of them would put out any feelers with anyone. If Covenant Life came to PJ, that would be their sign of God’s hand in the opportunity. Sue Robb, one of the leaders at Covenant Life, lobbied Harris to lobby Virgo. Virgo had a longstanding relationship with Mahaney and preached at Covenant Life while Harris was pastor and Mahaney was on leave of absence dealing with controversies over his leadership of Sovereign Grace. PJ’s Advance denomination grew out of Virgo’s New Frontiers. Virgo called PJ in March 2015. The next day, Harris called PJ. So PJ went through the interview process with the church’s search committee. In August, PJ was voted in by the congregation. In December 2015, he finally got his American visa and transplanted from South Africa. PJ is in the initial stages of adding his new church to his Cape Town based denomination/network.
Cult Researcher
Analysis of the Schmitt case:
– The Sunday morning service announcement, the members discussion, and the public call for church contact all referred to “victims.” Notice the word “victims.” Why would the church leadership repeatedly refer to the incident in terms of victims? The implication is that he used his position to take advantage of vulnerable people.
– One of the victims identified is a young church pastor. Notice the word “young.” Schmitt is a long term serial predator of young men.
– Schmitt and the young pastor victim were on staff with the same church. Schmitt was his superior. This is workplace sexual abuse.
– Notice the word “website.” Do you suppose there’s a reason the church has quietly removed Schmitt’s bio and picture rather than make an online announcement?
– Notice the term “3 strikes.” Schmitt has been caught in the act 3 times over a period of 50 years. A high profile minister pretending for a long time to be the opposite of what he is and finally gets busted. The names Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, and Ted Haggard should come to mind.
– Notice the word “large.” Immanuel’s is one of the largest Charismatic churches in the DC area. Indeed, one of the largest churches of any orientation.
– Notice the word “mega church.” In terms of city history, Immanuel’s is actually a relatively new church, as is Covenant Life. Immanuel’s is a mega church, as is (was) Covenant Life. The primary draw of most mega churches is the celebrity minister. The name Joel Osteen should come to mind. In this case, Mahaney and Tomczak, big names who rose to prominence through the Jesus Movement. And popular speakers on the conference circuit. In the case of Tomczak, a popular author, beginning with “Clap Your Hands.”
Cult Researcher
When I first contacted Todd Wilhelm, he was very warm toward me. I talked about my success lobbying the news media to report on Sovereign Grace and Maranatha. We talked about him assisting a famous investigative journalist expose PJ Smyth’s coverup of John Smyth’s abuse. I inquired whether he posts guest reports. He said he would be glad to read my report. At this point, he said nothing about age, location, or church affiliation. After I sent a report about a ring of DC connected cults and my connection to the story, he turned on me. It was like Dr. Jeckel and Mr. Hyde. It was like bait and switch. When I told him his line of questioning was not appropriate and that I was uncomfortable with the new direction our conversation was going, he cut me off.
Cult Researcher
TIMELINE:
January 2016: PJ Smyth and Mark Mitchell told the congregation at a members meeting that the pending Washingtonian article was Satan trying to stop the church from moving on.
February 2016: Tiffany Stanley’s Washingtonian article about the Sovereign Grace/Covenant Life child abuse coverup class action lawsuit hit the stands.
March 8th 2016: Charlotte Ennis and Terry Mayo, 2 Covenant Life wives, testified at a state senate hearing against senate bill #668 extending the statute of limitations on pedophile victim civil suits from 7 years to 20 years. Susan Burke, the attorney for the class action suit testified in favor of the extension, as did victim organizer Pam Palmer.
March 16th: Yet another Covenant Life member, Larry Caffery, was arrested for pedophilia.
March 26th: Mark Mitchell got the news about Larry Caffery
March 29th: SNAP reported Larry Caffery’s arrest and Charlotte Ennis responded to the SNAP article in the comments section.
March 29th: Mark Mitchell informed his congregation about the Larry Caffery arrest.
March 31st: Terry Mayo, Pam Palmer, Mark Mitch, and Tiffany Stanley were guests on WAMU radio.
April 4th, 2016: Larry Caffery was released on bail on April 4th 2016.
April 8th 2016: Court of Special Appeals overturned 3 counts of the Nate Morales case.
April 12-14th 2016: Pam Palmer travels to Louisville to protest on behalf of SNAP against Charles Mahaney being allowed to return to the stage of the Together for the Gospel after a lapse of 2 years.
April 15th 2016: Larry Caffery waved his right to a pre-trail hearing. Outside the courtroom, religion watchdog blogger Janna Chan of Thou Art the Man witnessed Bo Lotinsky and Don Nalle introduce themselves to Larry Caffery and tell them Covenant Life would support him because he’s a member.
June 24th: Charges against Larry Caffery were dismissed. Not dropped, just dismissed. The prosecutor can still charge Larry Caffery. Meanwhile, he’s under a one year restraining order.
Public responses from church officials have always been diversionary spin such as “No abuse occurred on church property” and “He was not on staff.” For example, Charlotte Ennis said in response to the SNAP article, “Caffery was never a paid employee of Covenant Life Church.” Covenant Life communications director Don Nalle told World, a Christian news magazine, “Let us emphasize, there is no allegation at this time that any wrongdoing happened on church property.” Sovereign Grace’s Wikipedia page says, “Morales was never a paid employee of Covenant Life Church.” Another example, Sovereign Grace’s Wikipedia says, “Those charges did not involve Covenant Life Church or Sovereign Grace Ministries.” They know the perpetrators have been low level, part time, volunteer youth/children’s minister, fathers, or other children. They also know the abuse occurs in camps and in homes. For example, Nate Morales was a youth minister and Larry Caffery was a children’s minister. They both operated under the authority of the church leadership and both targeted children of church members. They both operated within the church longterm. And those camps and sleepovers were sponsored by the church or church members. Serial pedophiles are crafty and calculated and know that higher level church positions involve too much scrutiny while lower level positions involve more access to their prey. Sovereign Grace’s Wikipedia page has a paragraph about Caffery embedded in the section on Morales and the paragraph doesn’t name Caffery. It also says charges were dropped, whereas charges against Caffery dismissed, not dropped. The procesutors consider the case still open. Meanwhile, Caffery was placed under a restraining order for one year. The “dropped” reference implies the legal system cleared Caffery of any criminal wrongdoing. The Wikipedia page also claims the Washingtonian article doesn’t identify Pam Palmer’s motive, even though Palmer’s motive is discussed at length.
Charlotte Ennis sought to discredit various witnesses, including dragging up 20 year old criminal activities of Dara Adams, sister of one of the plaintiffs. State senator Jamie Raskin intervened and said, “You’re here representing an institution and you’re trying to discredit plaintiffs in a case against your church. My patience has run out for that approach to this problem. The purpose of this hearing to consider amending a law, not to re-adjudicate a court case.” He added, “Covenant Life Church looks like something of a clearing house for predatory sexual activities against children.” When he asked Ennis if she was referring to the Morales case, she said, “That’s a separate case.” She objected when he said Morales was convicted in connection to his service to her church. She was quick to say, “He was not an employee of the church” and “He did not abuse them on church property.” She referred to the accusations in the lawsuit as “undoubtably false.” She also said, “No one in the Morales case testified that anyone in the church told them not to contact the police.” The Morales case is a separate case but a connected case. One of the plaintiffs was James Roberts. Roberts would have been the key witness in a 3rd case against Morales. But the sentence in 1st and 2nd case was enough for Morales to spend the rest of his life in prison. The prosecutor didn’t see the need for a 3rd case. Ennis claimed Olivia Llewellyn recanted her testimony. Olivia didn’t recant. She decided not to press charges against her father Charles Llewellyn because her mother pleaded with her that the family’s finances would be destroyed. Charles not only molested Olivia, he molested her sisters.
The official line all along has been, “We have never engaged in a coverup.” This contradicts the testimony of dozens of victims in several cities over a period of decades. The number of victims identified in criminal civil court cases represents only a fraction of victims. Many have not followed the news about their former church/denomination and are therefore unaware that they were not the only victims. Others are afraid to come forward for fear of embarrassment or recrimination. Some have reported to police but did not have a strong enough case or withdrew under pressure. Furthermore, because the lawsuit was dismissed, neither the plaintiffs nor the defendants were examined on the witness stand. Tiffany Stanley said in her Washingtonian article, “Of 16 former and current SGM pastors contacted for this story, none would answer questions on the record about the suit’s allegations, and some did not return messages.” The plaintiffs banded together to file a class action lawsuit. The defendants have not banded together to issue a press release, hold a press conference, appear on a talk show, write a guest editorial, testify at a hearing, or sign a petition. Of all the people who could have testified at the senate hearing on behalf of Covenant Life, none of the pastoral team of 20 appeared, nor any of the church’s attorneys, not even the church’s communications director.
A few things Charlotte and Terry did not discuss: Charlotte was living with Covenant Life pastor Gary Ricucci when Ricucci took control of Dara and her siblings and put them into foster care instead of with church families, then helped Dara’s father drag out child custody and child support legal precedings for 7 years. She knows about Dara’s case. Dave Mayo gave Dara’s father a room in his house when Dara’s mother turned him into the police for molesting Dara’s sister.
Cult Researcher
The above summaries are background information for investigative journalists. They like material tidy, concise, and accurate. So I would appreciate corrections.
Cult Research
C.R., maybe you could summarize in a paragraph the point you’re trying to make. You’re kinda all over the map.
CS/CR-
Thanks for taking the time to write out all the sordid connections. I suppose it is mostly here already in bits and pieces but you managed to consolidate a lot.
In defense of Todd, neither he or Janna or most people here have some sort of journalistic orientation as the main goal. The goal is being a resource for exmembers/victims or current members who are starting to see the light. It is more of a pastoral concern.
If I were Todd (and I will never have his remarkable giftings, so I will never be Todd) I would ask for the same sort of information, possibly even more than name, age, church, and location. After watching all the snakes, one does not assume anything, and Todd is right to be cautious.
For example, I thought at first Detwiler was a repentant good guy. Then time goes by and we see a repeated failure to own up to his own sins and influence as a founding apostle of SGM. Never any apology for his part in the legalism, control, or pastor “degiftings”. I was shocked to watch this video and put together that it was five years after he claims he had been steadily rebuking CJ in private. The deceiving of CLC is horrific, but never an apology from Detwiler.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rdo7eZCKE
You start to wonder who is just trying to get revenge, and who is a good guy and who is a bad guy. I came out of Ft Lauderdale Shepherding, ended up in PDI (ie, SGM) and it takes years to process the crap. I have had to repent of so much myself, to God and my kids.
So, why should Todd or anybody assume you are a good guy with a pastoral heart, instead of one more person who got burned and is out to get back at the rest of the mob? I am hoping for the best, but if you are a good guy, you will retract your accusations of Todd.
Have you read this? http://stevecrosby.org/spiritual-abuse/spiritual-abuse-recovery-2
Have you dealt with what was inside you that got you hooked in the first place? Have you faced the problems in your own soul that sucked you in? Can you see your own sins and weakness that made you fall for these men? If so, great. But if not, you are one more problem, not an asset.
I don’t know you or your motives, and like I said, from a journalistic viewpoint that was a fascinating read. But from a Christian heart to help survivors, you could be a bad guy. One more member of the mob seeing the light about the rest of the mob, but not themself. I solidly support Todd. Tell him your personals if you want him to feature your stuff. This isn’t the news, it is Christian care for sheep.
One more thing-
A major way the controlling spirit in the cult operates is by accusations of motives when somebody disagrees or asks a question.
“You are proud, ambitious, sinfully craving answers, unsubmissive, rebellious,” etc etc etc.
Now people can be all those things…but not the first time they ask a question.
Todd asks a question ( what location, what church) and right away his motives are being questioned. He is called paranoid.
Now Carl, you also paid Todd some nice compliments, so OK, maybe you are struggling with some rejection and hurt feelings. But please try to be aware that the spirit in the men you wrote about above is a demonic one of accusation of motives that happens all the time to non compliant members. You don’t want to give way to that spirit. I get this, I had to face it in me. You live under that thing long enough and open yourself up to it, and you become like the leaders to some extent. So watch it. The minute your first impulse is to accuse motives, pull back, especially with a guy you don’t know. I lived with this tendency for years…it is not godly caution, it is from a dark spirit.
Hi Carl Slaughter,
Thank you for all your hard work organizing timelines and details. Greatly appreciated.
Just a quick question. I don’t recall your name here before (so, Hello!). Though my memory isn’t perfect. Have you been on here before?
Best,
Stunned
I’m looking for information useful for lobbying investigative reporters to expose the abusive behavior of the leaders of Sovereign Grace, Maranatha, and related cults. No pyscho-babble, no anal inspection, no drama, just research for a media strategy.
Cult Researcher
I’m overseas and the VPN isn’t working. Even with the VPN, I can’t access The Wartburg Report. They appear to post good material about SGM/Covenant Life. I would appreciate people posting key Wartburg quotes here. – CR
I am especially keen on breaking news about PJ Smyth’s coverup of John Smyth’s activities in the UK, Zimbabwe, and South Africa. I have reporters and editors with 3 major media outlets interested in this story. – CR
Do you know what happened at the “family meeting ” at Immanuel’s Church this evening? Is what you’ve said here a synopsis of Feb 23 meeting?
The problem with Wartburg and Thou Art the Man, is all of the accusations in the lawsuit are stated as fact which takes the conversation off on distorted conclusions at times.
Along with the Second Amended Lawsuit came the most outrageous claims. There was also a lot of money on the table at that point and many people very angry when the leaders fled to Louisville. The second generation adults were particularly angry. And, there was chatter among that age group of making up stories for money.
I think nobody wants to come on here and claim the stories are not true because if they are, that would be terrible.
But, if just one story was fabricated or even just not remembered correctly, then much of the lawsuit falls apart.
Does anyone here believe there were numerous adults in masks at Celebration gang raping numerous children? I don’t know anyone at CLC who does. Those hanging on that story are outsiders reading blogs. And, if that story were to be untrue, then it raises questions regarding all of the stories shared by that victim. That would bring into question accusations against Griney, Hoffman, Mayo, Loftness and Ricucci by that same accuser.
IF that accuser had falsely suppressed memories or even worse fabricated the accusations, then the most devastating injustice in this story are the lives of the accused whose reputations have been irreparably destroyed.
In the case of sexual abuse, the problem is no one can ever say definitively that it didn’t happen. But, it is hard to believe of all of the witnesses said to be in that basement at Celebration that NO ONE could collaborate that story. And, if that story is false, then a lot of the stories could be false.
I would suggest Cult Researcher post some contact information so that if there are people who know, who wish to not post on a blog out of respect for the victims or whatever, they could tell you what truly happened.
Just Saying,
I too was suspicious of some of the lawsuit stories, particularly the Celebration/masks story. The story sounded familiar, so it might have been a copycat. Some of the people accused of being coverup conspirators in testimonies posted online before the lawsuit suddenly were also accused of being perpetrators when the lawsuit hit. If I were a defense attorney, I would be telling the judge, “Your Honor, clearly this is a tactic by the plaintiffs to taint the defendant’s testimony before they even take the witness stand.”
Terry Mayo said her family was harassed: a threat to mail a flyer to her neighbors identifying a pervert in the midst; anonymous calls to her husband’s business associates lobbying them to break ties with him. Mayo also said Covenant Life’s private investigator spoke with 18 people identified in one of the stories and none of them could confirm the accusations in the lawsuit.
So yeah, a remedy is a 2 edged sword. If people abuse the justice system, they are just as accountable to the justice system as any other criminal. Also, I would be interested in what you meant by, “There was chatter among that age group of making up stories for money.” Is this first, second, or third hand; is it written or oral?
No, don’t contact me with a testimony. Contact someone like Pam Palmer, who now working with SNAP.
In exCLCer’s testimony, John Loftness is identified as one of the key pastors responsible for tearing her family apart and ushering her into a nightmare. In exCLCer’s testimony, John Loftness is also identified as administering, as principal of Covenant Life’s school, many unnecessary and excessive spankings to exCLCer and her sibling who later sexually abused by her stepfather. When the lawsuit hits, suddenly John Loftness is accused of sexually abusing a plaintiff on school grounds. I’m not casting doubt on exCLCer’s story. I believe every word of it. IMO, her treatment is the most outrageous of any SGM victim. I have lobbied several investigative reporters to kick John Loftness and Gary Ricuuci’s doors in with some extremely embarrassing questions. But again, if I were the defense attorney, I would be playing the convenient coincidence factor for all it’s worth.
Covenant Life is listed in the Gospel Coalition directory. PJ Smyth is listed as pastor, so it’s updated. Is there a connection between Gospel Coalition and Together for the Gospel? I see some of the same names.
http://churches.thegospelcoalition.org/app/church/10129
http://t4g.org/2009/04/t4g-and-tgc/
Just Saying, John Loftness was depicted as repeatedly taking a child out of their classroom and into his office to sexually molest them. He was even depicted as sexually assaulting a child in the school hallway. How often can the same student be taken out classrooms without teachers and classmates noticing how often the same student is being taken out of classrooms? Same goes for the same student being taken to the principal’s office. Can’t ANYONE who was in that school at that time, staff or student, confirm or deny the frequency of this alleged activity?
RT
Did that additional meeting happen at Immanuels last night as you indicated? Any information?
Just Saying, here’s one for caution. Brent Detwiler to John Loftness.
“You were a friend for 30 years, but based upon all the evidence in my possession, I believe you are guilty of physically and sexually abusing children.”
Brent Detwiler was a friend of John Loftness for 30 years and Brent never discerned that John was a pervert?
In other news Chris Silard posted this recently on his Facebook page:
” I have resigned from my position as a staff pastor in my church. I made this decision because it simply was no longer feasible for our church to financially support three staff pastors.”
For those who don’t know Chris was the founding past of the SGM Church in Frederick MD and the church is now called Living Hope Community Church. I believe they changed their name when they withdrew from SGM.
Interesting how the founding pastor has chosen to resign vs. another pastor.
I think Brent Detwiler has shot himself in the foot more than just a few times. I tried to warn him, sometime back, his very obvious hatred for Mahaney would send a message to all other churches looking for a staff minister – don’t hire this man.
Um….The lawyer for the plaintiffs, Susan Burke, has an outstanding record and reputation in her field. Are we supposed to believe that she was fooled, did not properly vet her clients, and just agreed to a frivolous fictional complaint?
I don’t think so. Possible, but I respect her.
As far as pedophiles go, they are generally non violent respectable citizens, usually married, generally with pleasing personalities and often in professional positions at every level. Their own wives do not suspect. They can be doctors, lawyers, school teachers, and clergy. Usually when they are arrested people are shocked. They can fool everybody.
We don’t know all the facts with 100% certainty. It wasn’t video taped. People can have false memories. Do we go with Susan Burke’s opinion and consider that maybe it is valid? I do, unless there is clear evidence otherwise. Can I picture a gang rape at Celebration with ski mask hats on? Yes, actually I can believe it. If you have ever known a true sociopath (I have) and the way they can be a Jekyll and Hyde split personality, one charming and one so evil, you could believe anything.
Loftness at the school? Those guys could do whatever they wanted and never be questioned. That was how it operated.
Doesn’t matter. For just what happened in the verified cases so far, excluding anything contested in the lawsuit, there should be reparations and quite a few guys removed from ministry.
Just saying….I respect you too. If you say innocent men have been vilified, I don’t want to discount that, and it is a terrible tragedy if true. I just don’t know, none of us can for sure. God will make it right in the world to come if not this one. But I do know that sociopaths can be so slick and so smooth and fool so many people. I’ve seen it somewhat up close (relatives, and a church long ago).
Time to be devoted to prayer for God’s true sheep.
Before we heap further praise on Susan Burke, she is totally at fault for blowing the appeal. There were specifics as to how and when to appeal. She ignored it, they tossed her case out because she did not follow the protocol [ probably thru ignorance ]. So let’s not deify Susan Burke just yet.
Cult referred to Morales and Caffrey as “ministers”. Those who attended CLC know that every parent in the church was required to work in children’s ministry once/month as well as many of the singles who volunteered. Those with known criminal issues or pastoral issues were prohibited. In Caffrey’s time, no teacher could be alone at any time with a child and two adults had to accompany any children to the restroom, which usually traveled as a class. No one was allowed to enter the Children’s Ministry wing without passing through security and children couldn’t exit classes with any adult except the one who carried the “child pick-up” receipt given to the parent at drop off. I doubt that any church has such stringent procedures.
Caffrey was very much an unknown, just serving his time like every other parent. Not saying he was not a perp.
Nobody thinks Loftness or Ricucci did anything sexual. Sounds like Ex-CLCer’s situation turned into a mess. Also sounds like they should have handled Palmer’s situation better.
Ex-CLCer’s story was a lot more complicated than what has been said here.
For context, you need to remember that THOUSANDS of children passed through children’s ministry. Statistically, if this were a regular town, there would be hundreds of victims. It actually seems significantly safer than the real world, with the exception of Nate Morales, a predator. Predators happen everywhere. If the parents told the pastors they did not want to report to the police, the pastors should have respected that. However, given the hindsight, the pastors should have persuaded the parents to do the right thing and report. This is on the parents, not on the pastors. Institutions in the 80’s didn’t file charges against molesters it was thought to spare the victim the trauma. Schools didn’t do it. Nobody did it. It can outrage us now, but it was normal practice at the time.
The school spanked students. As far as I know, the principal always brought the secretary or the teacher in as a witness. Nobody removed clothing. The spanking policy ended a long time ago.
In the first lawsuit, they were unsuccessful at making a claim connecting any abuse to Covenant Life Church. Nate Morales was a principal at another school. The first lawsuit wrongly tried to claim that school was affiliated with CLC which is was not. Apart from attending CLC, Nate had no official leadership roll at CLC, although it sounds like he assumed rolls in kid’s lives as predators do.
The Second Amended Lawsuit suddenly conveniently made connections with pastors, staff, the building, the school, Celebration. A new accusation suddenly arose against Ex-CLCer’s stepfather that would give Loftness prior knowledge to implicate him. The other players, Griney and Hoffman would probably have been the ONLY characters the accuser could name from their childhood because they were popular children’s ministry ventriloquists. I couldn’t figure out how Mayo was accused until you say Ex-CLCer’s dad moved in with him when he left his family. That’s motive.
The accusation against these men destroyed their lives, their careers, their fellowship and reputations. It isolated them and destroyed their health. People looked at their children assuming they also were abused.
After the investigation, in which these men’s families were completely cut-off and did not attend, the pastors made a statement asking the church to restore them.
Just Saying, you really got me thinking about the situations with Celebration, the Covenant Life school, and the Second Amended Lawsuit. A couple of years before the lawsuit, victims and their parents posted their testimonies here on SGM Survivors and on Jim’s site. This is how we and they discovered the widespread and longterm pattern of coverup. In these early testimonies, the predators were low level ministry volunteers, part time babysitters, and fathers. The attacks happened in homes and camps. Though the vics and the perps were church members and context was often a church sponsored event, locations were not church buildings or school buildings and the number of people present was small. They caught their victims alone at night when adults were asleep or out of the house. Along comes the lawsuit, then the second lawsuit, and we get a story about abuse during a conference, with a multitude of people milling around, in a room with several children and several adults, with children being take away in full view of everyone; also a school full of students and staff. These later stories contradict the Morales type of MO. I tend to trust the early testimonies, the ones told when people just wanted to share their stories to warn and support each other and to be healed, before a multi-million dollar lawsuit possibly corrupted the process. – CR
…or possibly the first lawsuit gave the rest the courage to speak up, overcoming fear and shame.
I don’t know for sure of course. But the detectives that work with these people probably are great at figuring out the truth…which is why I am slow to dismiss Burke’s confidence in their stories.
Stunned- obviously he’s been reading here for a while. Does he seem like the type that would have refrained from joining the conversation?? :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_L._Burke
Cult – The issue on the blogs was not originally sexual abuse. The issue was spiritual abuse and all of the implications that go along with a narcissistic leader running unchecked and speaking in the name of God, disposing of all who challenged him, leaving spiritual wreckage.
Although many individuals had thought that might be the case, when the leader abandoned the church and fled to Louisville, it only confirmed it. The blogs allowed people to find each other and untangle the confusing web of manipulation and control they had experienced and more importantly how it had perverted their understanding of God and self.
People had trouble finding words to describe the mind games, the superiority and exclusivity peered with rejection and shame to control behavior, the excessive honoring and shunning, separating people from their calling from God until approved by leadership, causing believers to disobey God.
The mishandling of sex abuse instances simply reflected the faulty counseling approach that had little tolerance for victims or care for those in trauma. But, sex abuse was just not the primary problem. Spiritual abuse was.
The primary accuser in the Second Amended lawsuit was a former pastor’s daughter. That pastor had been unfairly discarded and his family traumatized, I’m sure traumatizing the daughter who would have lost all of her relationships in a very relationship focused community. The other two accusers in the Second Amended with similar stories were her close friends. She truly was a victim.
Up until the Second Amended Lawsuit, nobody had the language to explain their spiritual abuse. But everyone understands the horror of sexual abuse. And quickly, the issue morphed into a sex abuse cult, which would define SGM from that point forward.
I think we should stand and support the true victims whose sexual abuse was mishandled. The cases at Fairfax sound much worse.
But, unfortunately the distraction of the sexual abuse issues have kept spiritual abuse victims from finding a voice or understanding their abuse.
And, the false information in the sexual abuse lawsuits has probably empowered the leaders in Louisville to cheerfully deny all accusations with a clear conscience without taking responsibility for their spiritually abusive history.
Just Saying,
Totally agree.
All SGM problems are rooted in a fundamental inability to shepherd the sheep, indeed, a fundamental disinterest.
Having heard from Mahaney more than once from the pulpit, especially his “divine tension” doctrine, I was not surprised to discover the direction he took PDI and the abuse of his position, ie, abandoning the refreshing period, embracing Reformed Theology, ousting Tomczak*, cancelling PDI magazine, covering up Todd’s drug use, issuing denials in response to the lawsuit, fleeing to Louisville, bribing his way into favor with Calvinist big dogs.
When I heard about spiritual abuse like keeping detailed files on the pettiest offenses and the corresponding unconstructive criticism about said offenses, when I heard about using their own songs during worship services and stocking their bookstore only with books writte by him or is associates, I was willing to attribute that to the post-Tomczak era, having heard from Tomczak more than once in the pulpit.
But the invitation of Charles Schmitt to DC, Friendly Fire’s testimony, Tomczak’s close association with Bob Weiner and Rice Broocks, his daughter joining the Burke suit, his coverup of his son’s sexual sin, his transition from apostle to “cultural commentator,” these factors have made me reconsider whether he ever had the right stuff.
It seems Tomczak’s passion in the pulpit was just as misleading as Mahaney’s carnality in the pulpit.
CR
*OK, so technically Mahaney put Tomczak on probation over his son’s behavior
If I could, please, I would like to add to this conversation regarding the lawsuit and the charges therein.
I’ve never mentioned it here before and no one but a few people involved in the lawsuit (just a few) even know this, but before the lawsuit was filed, as a support to my friend, I picked them (avoiding gender if I can to respect his/her identity) up from the airport and I took them to Susan Burke’s office, where they were questioned for quite some time. This friend then spent many days with me and I hope I have been a loving support to them since and I strived to be before this all came out.
I, also, have been somewhat involved with a few of the other people in the lawsuit and have chosen not to talk about it here out of love and respect for them. I still won’t say too much because, of course, I still respect and love many of these people. But I can attest to the fact that Susan Burke was not only VERY thorough in her research (though the ball appears to have been significantly dropped on the filing date, though no one on this sites knows whether that was a mistake or a purposeful tactic), but she chose to leave out very big charges because she did not want things to get muddy.
In other words, some people involved in the lawsuit had bigger and worse things happen to them than what was in the lawsuit but Ms. Burke chose to only bring into the lawsuit those things she believed to be more proveable. It is not that she doubted the victims, after she and her associates spent exhausting hours researching, but she chose to leave them out because they may be harder to prove or more questionable. And no, we are not talking about mass sexual assaults or something that goes beyond a perverse imagination. Though I am talking about sexual assaults that would make any health person feel sick to their stomach and filthy just to think about.
I cannot and will not speak to the issue of the people who claimed they were assaulted at Celebration as I do not know them personally so can not add anything else to that.
Cult Researcher, if you are willing to contact me privately, you can reach me at notaloneanymore1@gmail.com.
Thank you,
Stunned
3 of society’s major institutions – 1) media 2) church 3) law – circling his father and how does PJ Smyth respond?
— Why has PJ Smyth, an experienced pastor and Bible teacher, not gotten on a plane to South Africa to provide spiritual support and spiritual guidance to his father during the greatest spiritual crisis of his father’s life.
— Why has he not personally and privately intervened to establish the truth about the actions and condition of a close family member accused of being a monster, but has instead left that task to investigative journalists and civil authorities?
— Why has he not issued a statement claiming the father he knows cannot be guilty of the crimes with which he has been accused?
— How can someone who claims to be spiritually discerning live in the same house with his father, a Christian youth minister, and never pick up any signals that someone he interacted with on a daily basis isn’t the person he pretends to be, indeed, that his life is deeply and disturbingly flawed?
— How could someone who claims to hear from God on behalf of his flock not hear God whisper – or shout – in his ear, “Your father is in serious trouble.”?
— Why is it that after 3 memos, 2 members meetings, and 1 video, PJ still hasn’t said, “I have spoken to my father at length about this and my father told me…”?
— If the headlines were screaming that your father is a demon incarnate, if your father was on the verge of being put in handcuffs, if your father locked himself in house, if someone circulated a flyer to his neighbors describing him as a pervert, would you settle for issuing a brief written statement?
— If you were a high profile Christian pastor and if your father was a longtime Christian youth minister, how would you respond if international headlines were screaming that your father is wolf in sheep’s clothing, a pedophile, a sadomasochist, and a fugitive from justice?
This whole context lends credibility to Todd Wilhelm’s expose about PJ’s coverup in Zimbabwe. PJ hasn’t gone into motion on his father’s behalf because knows his father is guilty and therefore can foresee his father’s fate. Instead of trying to save his father’s life, he’s been busy trying to save his own job.
Stunned, I wish you, Susan, your friend, or the unincluded victims had come forward when Greta Kreuz was covering the lawsuit. She kept asking me to put her in touch with victims and I kept telling her to talk to Burke. I don’t want to know the names of victims unless they have already identified themselves. Greta was willing to blur the face of victims that didn’t want to be publicly identified. Now Greta is retired. Try Scott Taylor, Lisa Fletcher, or Kevin Smith at WJLA, Andrea McCarren or Bruce Leshan at WUSA, Dan Morse or Julie Zauz with the Washington Post, Tiffany Stanley through the Washingtonian, or Cathy Newman with Channel 4 UK. One more news outlet that I can’t mention yet, but I’ll pass your message along. Or try David Clohessy or Pam Palmer with SNAP – CR
For the record, I won’t contact anyone on this board directly. If someone has useful information to share with a journalist, I’ll pass along their contact info. If someone doesn’t want to post their email address or phone number here, I’ll recommend the most appropriate journalist and they can contact that journalist directly. I also won’t post the email address or phone number of a journalist. If their contact information isn’t already online, that means they prefer to be contacted on Twitter or Facebook or through their media outlet’s website contact form. CR
Eze 18
He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.
19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Everyone needs to read Todd Wilhelm’s, “PJ Smyth’s Convenient Memory Loss.” It has been updated with some important stuff.
https://thouarttheman.org/2017/02/19/pjsmythmemoryloss/
And check out “Brent Detwiler’s Factual Rebuttal of Covenant Church Apologist” on Wilhelm’s blog. Looks like “just saying” is the apologist.
https://thouarttheman.org/2017/02/14/brent-detwilers-factual-rebuttal-covenant-life-church-apologist/
PJ is not being held accountable for his father’s sins, he’s being held accountable for lying about his knowledge of his father’s sins.
PJ lists John Smyth along side Terry Virgo in the same sentence as his role models for Christian ministry. At age 22, PJ might be excused for still believing in his father even in the face of 5 leaders confronting him with a shocking report. But after being in the ministry for 25 years and after starting networks of churches in 2 countries, he no longer has an excuse.
And nobody, in the pulpit or in the pew, young or old, has any excuse for repeatedly practicing calculated deception before an entire congregation about such a serious situation.
Larry Tomczak might be excused for inviting Charles Schmitt to DC back when he and Mahaney were so young and inexperienced. But after he was in the ministry for 40 years, he reconciled with Schmitt and spoke at Schmitt’s church.
He was standing on the platform with a serial sexual predator who has a longstanding, deeprooted, uncontrollable craving for the bodies of young men. And Tomczak had already dealt with that person operating in that same spirit. Yet he was utterly clueless. At that stage, I question how much he has to offer the Body.
PJ and Larry have both carried the mantle of apostle. If this is the best they can do, they need to let someone else be an apostle.
Cult Researcher, I have no idea who Greta Kreuz, nor do I understand why you think I would “come forward” to someone I’ve never heard of until now. I’m not sure what it was you think I was asking for or wanting, but sharing the name of a victim with you or anybody would NEVER be something I’d ever do. I’m rather confused by your post to me. You don’t need to explain it but I think it’s important for me to say to anyone reading here, I just would be rather upset for someone else here who has ever shared anything with me privately to think that I would ever share their names or intimate details of their lives with someone with their permission.
Best to all,
Stunned
Ack, this is what I get for writing quickly. I left words out. (That or my spell check was having fun.) Please, allow me to type that so that is actually makes sense.
I have no idea who Greta Kreuz is, nor do I understand why you think I would “come forward” to someone I’ve never heard of until now. I’m not sure what it was you think I was asking for or wanting, but sharing the name of a victim with you or anybody would NEVER be something I’d ever do. I’m rather confused by your post to me. You don’t need to explain it but I think it’s important for me to say to anyone reading here that I would never share anything which someone else has shared with me privately, whether it be their names or intimate details of their lives withOUT their permission.
Stunned, Now I’m the one who’s confused. I said I was lobbying the media to investigate the sexual abuse coverup. You told me Burke excluded the worst horror stories from the lawsuit. Then you asked me to contact you. So I put 2 and 2 together and concluded you wanted to put me in touch with victims who were not included in the lawsuit and therefore might want an alternative strategy for helping strengthen the case against SGM/CL. I tipped off Greta about the lawsuit and later tipped her off about the Morales trial. She responded by asking me to put her in touch with victims and by interviewing victims. But she’s retired. So I mentioned several other members of the press who have indicated to me they might be willing to interview victims. I viewed this as an opportunity to further discredit SGM/CL after all the denials and recriminations they have issued. Especially since they got off on a technicality, ie, no one, victim, perpetrator, or conspirator, were ever put on the witness stand so they could tell their story or be examined. Your invitation to contact you came immediately after talking about victims whose stories have yet to be told, so it looked like one was connected to the other. Sorry about the confusion. So maybe you explain why you invited me to contact me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6zTMiut2fo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMPtPv5En6s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl7lZey2Jso
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ-O67hwnvE
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/10/sex-scandal-church-turned-deaf-ear-to-alleged-abuse-81189.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/covenant-life-church-pastors-face-scrutiny-over-ex-church-members-abuse/2014/06/01/f439a376-e835-11e3-a86b-362fd5443d19_story.html?hpid=z3
https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/02/14/the-sex-abuse-scandal-that-devastated-a-suburban-megachurch-sovereign-grace-ministries/
https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/04/14/larry-caffery-covenant-life-church-sovereign-grace-arrested-child-sexual-abuse/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/17/pastor-accused-of-covering-up-abuse-returns-to-spotlight.html
http://time.com/4226444/child-sex-abuse-evangelical-church/
https://world.wng.org/2016/07/abuse_charges_dropped_against_covenant_life_church_member_1
http://wamu.org/story/16/03/31/scandal-roils-a-suburban-church-behemoth/
http://www.snapnetwork.org/md_member_of_controversial_church_charged_with_abuse
https://thouarttheman.org/2016/04/15/clc-leaders-bo-lotinsky-don-nalle-just-told-larry-caffery-covenant-life-church-supporting/
“Two days after posting his open letter, PJ received emails from a UK reporter and a pastor in Zimbabwe that referenced his attendance at a meeting in June of 1993 where certain allegations of his father’s misconduct were discussed. Though he could not remember details of the meeting, PJ immediately informed the elders that his open letter was inaccurate. The following day he and his wife Ashleigh spoke directly with the Zimbabwe pastor. Members of our elder team subsequently contacted the pastor from Zimbabwe as well as pastors in South Africa familiar with the situation to inquire about PJ’s knowledge of his father’s work in Zimbabwe. Based on multiple discussions and the review of relevant documents, the elders concur with PJ that his open letter was inaccurate in stating that he “was not involved with those interactions.” However, we also believe PJ was seeking to communicate honestly and in a timely way he remembered. We believe he acted in good faith but his recollection of these earlier events was flawed.”
These are the same guys who have been telling us all along, “We don’t protect pedophiles,” “We’re moving to Louisville for financial reasons,” “We couldn’t find a home for these children,” “This degifted pastor will be restored.”
Waiting for the day when they say, “We don’t keep files on members.”
So the deal is; we’re holding PJ accountable to a conversation that happened 24 years ago?
CRIKEY, I don’t remember what I had for breakfast yesterday.
Daniel – I can’t say I could be an apologist for CLC as I have issues with their conduct in the 80’s as well. However, I agree with apologist in that sex abuse does not characterize the movement and it’s issues. My thoughts on this are held widely within CLC circles.
Cult – If you want to focus on sexual abuse, keep peeling the onion on Charles Schmitt. CJ and Larry both threw him out on his ear in a way that brought attacks from a popular Christian radio host who welcomed CS in and helped him get up and going again. Years later, that radio host/pastor was found to be engaged in immorality and his elder board came to CLC on a Sunday morning to apologize to the congregation for how they publically chastised CLC for standing against CS predatory behavior. I may not like CJ, but I will give him credit, his response to a predator in his church was swift and harsh. I also grieve that harshness left victims of CS emotionally conflicted without many resources for care.
I just don’t see it. I would think every church in America has someone in their congregation who sexually abuses someone, the larger the church the greater the numbers. Until the last decade or two, I would suspect most of them did not report to authorities and children didn’t bring criminal charges against family members. Am I wrong on this?
Cult’s quote:
“These are the same guys who have been telling us all along, “We don’t protect pedophiles,” “We’re moving to Louisville for financial reasons,” “We couldn’t find a home for these children,” “This degifted pastor will be restored.”
No – they are not the same guys. CLC pastors are not the same as SGM. They are estranged from those guys. Josh Harris is estranged from those guys. They estranged themselves right in the beginning when the leaders of SGM failed to take responsibility. The second Josh Harris stood up to CJ at the first family meeting, they were estranged. Go talk to Louisville.
If you are truly a Cult Researcher and need a good sex cult for your story, here’s one.
http://www.exfamily.org/index.htm
That’s a sex abuse cult.
“Just saying” posted this:
He is entirely correct. Anybody who tries to make the SGM mess completely or even mostly about sex abuse cover ups is definitely missing the facts on SGM’s history.
And anybody who thinks they are above reproach because they (rightly) stand up for the sex abuse victims, but who repeatedly engaged in that spiritual abuse or who enabled it and has not repented, is at best deceived.
Does anyone know what the family meeting at Immanuels Church was about on Thursday night? I was a member there for nearly a decade but left as I joined the service for a couple of years. Sad to hear that Pastor Charles was doing this while preaching the word of God all these years while I was attending.
Cult Researcher-the only way you are going to get to the truth in this organization is to start to subpoena the loyalists. They are brain washed but sincerely brainwashed but will not lie under oath-like Grant-who has a functioning conscience. On line is the record of Nate Morales trial-Jeremy testified that he was molested 50 times-the odds of a adult being able to be by himself alone 50 times with a child that is not part of his family and no one notice is slim to none. You should start investigating how CJ used the 6 million dollars he took from the tithes of church members and SGM churches to start over in Kentucky. Two members of the finance committee at CLC repeated this to me & other church members after they reviewed the financial fall-out after their exodus at a meeting. They both said, “It was clear that SGM had been preparing to leave for awhile”.
Then read the testimony by Richard Wolohan who is the father of Brian Wolohan one of the victims who testified, Brian was close friends with both of the Bate brothers that also testified. Nate was living at the Wolohans home at the time. Richard Wolohan was the head of the Finance Committee at CLC Church at the time when C.J. Mahaney was the head pastor-you can be sure C.J. knew about the molestations.
“a popular Christian radio host who welcomed CS in and helped him get up and going again. Years later, that radio host/pastor was found to be engaged in immorality and his elder board came to CLC on a Sunday morning to apologize to the congregation for how they publically chastised CLC for standing against CS predatory behavior.”
The plot thickens.
“the only way you are going to get to the truth in this organization is to start to subpoena the loyalists”
The courts take purgery very seriously. Depraved though they might be, they’re not likely to commit purgery at the risk of serious prison time and a heavy fine. – CR
“CJ used the 6 million dollars he took from the tithes of church members”
Still In, Are you referring to CLC? Members tithe to their local church, the local church tithes to the denomination. As head of SGM, CJ has the discretion to use denominational tithes to relocate denominational headquarters. But he had not been pastor of CLC for several years. How did he gain access to CLC bank accounts? Am I missing something here?
“SGM had been preparing to leave for awhile”
What timeframe? What motivation? What was the catalyst?
One of the leaders to Louisville told me they were caught totally off guard and had no idea they might be moving and had just made some long term family decisions that involved Maryland.
“So the deal is; we’re holding PJ accountable to a conversation that happened 24 years ago?
CRIKEY, I don’t remember what I had for breakfast yesterday.”
It wasn’t just a conversation, it was a conversation about an investigation into and report about his father. And according to the Thou Art the Man source, this conversation involved 5 pastors and was at PJ request.
Christopher and Jayne Smyth, Jonathan and Janet Brooks. These are PJ’s aunts and uncles on both sides of his family. They all had a falling out with his father over mistreatment of boys. Yet PJ doesn’t remember that strained relationship? He remembers a boy dying in a pool, but he doesn’t remember his father being arrested in the death of that boy, nor does he remember his father’s hasty departure in the middle of a court case? He doesn’t remember 5 pastors confronting him with a report about his father?
It is entirely possible he forgets. Study “confabulation”. It is when people look you straight in the face and say “I never said that”, “I never did that”, etc. It is the ability to internally recreate the past and form memories that serve to protect and create a new self image. Generally it functions to protect the person from shame or humiliation, when dark events of the past are wiped out. People can be very adept at burying traumatizing memories to the degree that they won’t recollect them at all. A good and patient counselor can help them to face what is buried, and the awful pain and shame of what happened to them or what they did themself.
I’ve dealt with this with two people (relatives, one Christian) who both looked you in the face and told the boldest falsehoods, and even when confronted with multiple witnesses would swear it never happened. I don’t think they were deliberately lying, but instead had managed to recreate a past that did not leave them humiliated. It is a weird phenomena to watch over the years. Both of them had terrible, harsh, brutal fathers. The soul tries to protect itself from pain, even as the body avoids pain. With God the truth can be faced, and facing truth leads to real freedom, but it isn’t easy especially in an evangelical environment that demands certain facades in order to be respected or to get a paycheck.
So I am willing to think PJ is not a liar. He could just be in confabulation, which is a serious mental illness and he needs to get help. The ability of people to block out their past is pretty amazing sometimes. Of course I don’t know, but just suggesting one possibility. I’d like to hope it is confabulation resulting from excruciating emotional pain, and not lies. Either way the guy needs help.
I have another theory. For a long time, he has been haunted by the suspicion or the knowledge that the accusations against his father are true. After 3 memos, 2 members meetings, and 1 video on the subject of his father, PJ has yet to say, “I have talked with my father at length about these accusations and my father told me…” No indication whatsoever that PJ has been in contact with father since the news broke. He hasn’t intervened because he knows his father is guilty and can therefore foresee his father’s fate. CR
PJ lists John Smyth and Terry Virgo as his primary Christian role models. The headlines are screaming that his father is a predator, a pervert, a counterfeit. He said he was devastated. He’s taking it awfully well. I don’t think he was surprised by the news.
“It can be difficult to objectively determine when someone is recollecting the past, versus reporting other forms of knowledge or belief or describing mental representations that have originated in other sources of experience,” the authors conclude. “Even under highly controlled laboratory conditions, memory researchers struggle to define and observe memory. How, then, can we expect therapists, forensic investigators, medical personnel, human resource staff, or jurists to be any better at this task?”
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/half-of-people-remember-events-that-never-happened/
“In the early nineteen-nineties, American society was recuperating from another panic over occult influence; Satanists had replaced witches. One case, the McMartin Preschool trial, hinged on nine young victims’ memories of molestation and ritual abuse—memories that they had supposedly forgotten and then, after being interviewed, recovered. The case fell apart, in 1990, because the prosecution could produce no persuasive evidence of the victims’ claims. A cognitive psychologist named Elizabeth Loftus, who had consulted on the case, wondered whether the children’s memories might have been fabricated—in Münsterberg’s formulation, involuntarily elaborated—rather than actually recovered.”
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/remembering-a-crime-that-you-didn’t-commit/ar-AA9tea7
“One of the leaders told me they were taken off guard……”-If you haven’t figured out by now SGM is not a democracy-there are insiders inside the insiders that are the trusted few. Then there are layers of informants who secretly take great pride in believing they are insiders. That’s the dysfunction of cult relationships-years of getting closer, getting noticed, getting a position, getting the inside gossip about the skeletons in other church members life and all the while thinking they are serving God in doing it-until they get to the top and realized they are not under the control of the Holy Spirit but a person who may not even be saved or maybe never was with zero fruit of the Holy Spirit worse than a non-believer.
I’m thinking you must be an insider to know that.
I’m thinking your parnoid
Turns out South Africa knows PJ has inherited a mess.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2017/02/02/Son-of-lawyer-in-spanking-documentary-heads-US-megachurch-embroiled-in-sex-scandal
My source was an insider insider. I am outsider but sometimes insiders don’t know that and tell me things.
Exactly-“Just Saying”-that’s the dysfunction of surviving in a cult. If the controlling leaders ever get a hint that you are not 100% on board and loyal then they start slowly distancing themselves from you. Of course this is never openly stated but all those who want to remain in good standing with the narcissist-have been through this before and will redouble their efforts to prove their loyalty. For the particularly insecure that may include sharing some detail that further undermines the person who is unknowingly is becoming the “scapegoat”. That’s why in the CLC/SGM scenario it will take someone who in their heart is an outsider to turn against the organization. That isn’t likely to happen because of all the family connections and now they have all relocated and totally isolated themselves without any other support system except the organization.
Meanwhile, regarding SGM / SGC, I would like to know who the single $300,000+ donor was from last year. Kaufman’s music business? Or a different person or organization?
If I understand, this donation has an impact on the appearance of SGC’s success. I say appearance because it’s not giving based on widespread appreciation and endorsement by members, just a lump-sum prop that tips the scale for the final numbers. But people usually only look at the final numbers, and feel more comfortable giving to a business that looks like it is succeeding. So it is significant as well as deceptive.
I’m not trying to change the subject,by the way, just add to it. SGC (SGM, PDI) has not changed it’s brand or MO, and all the comments above that are true still apply to the leaders (and followers) in KY. Their financial success insures their vision/version will continue unabated.
One of the main differences at this point between CLC and SGC/SGM is the rabid, often familial (literally) loyalty to the leaders. CLC leaders are committed to ideas and methods (methods which are very similar to SGM). SGM leaders are committed to a single person – CJ.
exCLCer’s story is well known, but these things have never been said before. Hope this adds some new perspective to her case.
Sovereign Grace/Covenant Life operated a huge church facility, a parochial school, and a pastor’s college. They sponsored numerous conferences and camps and concerts. They held pastor’s conferences in swank hotels. The co-founders were in big demand as national speakers. They had a congregational membership of 3000 and a denominational membership of 28,000. They had an army of single young people, including pastors in training, eager to pay their dues by serving. Yet they couldn’t find beds or babysitters for exCLCer and her siblings? Couldn’t even put out a call for hosts or sponsors or volunteers or donations for these virtual orphans? Not buying it. So Charles Mahaney and Larry Tomczak are receiving applause, speaking fees, and book sales from adoring cult fans, while exCLCer is tied up in a mental institution? Not buying it. They have paid $$300,000 for reconciliation services, $100,000 for investigative services, who knows how much in legal fees. They donated $200,000 to a seminary. But they can’t provide a soft bed and a warm meal to a child. Not buying it. There’s no spin on this situation. If they care for their congregation the way they cared for this family, they were never fit to be in the ministry.
CR
Stunned, btw, thanks for adding a lot of perspective, and sorry about the confusion. CR
Adding to it that excluder and her family lived in a relatively comfortable area, not a poverty stricken one by any stretch of the imagination. There were plenty of warm, empty beds in warm, loving homes who would have taken her and them in if only they had known.
Many people have come on here saying they were around then and would have gladly done so if the leadership would have spoken up.
Then again, if these kids started going into homes in the congregation, eventually one of the kids would have told the adults in the home what was happening to them and their sister and their mother.
Sure they could have afforded beds and homes and money. But could they have afforded the truth?
exluder= exCLCer stupid spell check
OutThere-that is so true “rabid familial loyalty”-you are not allowed to even discuss in CLC what a leader would say-even when you don’t honestly understand it with a sincere, humble, noncritical attitude. So much was said that didn’t make sense but its all about unquestioning CLC political correctness. Sometimes people drop their guard and state the obvious but they always quickly recant. Its sad.
Families from the church supported Ex-CLCer’s mom for a long time and brought food for the kids when they were not getting in at home. Many families took those 9 kids into their homes. When Mom continued to bring more children home even while her husband was in prison and then ultimately left the church, the pastors no longer had jurisdiction over the kids and Child Protective Services took them from the mom.
I remember mothers sobbing about this. Everyone loved those kids and wanted so much to keep them together. Those kids were very much loved.
“We loved those children.” “We brought them lunches.” “We were sad about what happened to them.” “We tried to help that family.” “Once the children were taken away and the mother left the church, there was nothing we could do.”
This has been the official line all along.
With all the resources of a mega church at their disposal, pretty close to a worst case scenario was the best they could do?
If John Loftness or Gary Ricucci’s children had needed foster care, this would have been a much different scenario.
IF ONE OF CJ MAHANEY OR LARRY TOMCZAK’S CHILDREN WERE TIED TO BED IN A PSYCHIATRIC WARD, THE ENTIRE COVENANT LIFE CHURCH WOULD HAVE MOVED HEAVEN AND EARTH TO GET THEM OUT.
If David Adams had molested John Loftness or Gary Ricucci’s children, they would not have been standing next to him in the courtroom.
If a pedophile had preyed on any of the children of CJ Mahaney or Larry Tomczak in any way even one time, they would never have allowed that pervert to set foot in the door of Covenant Life for the rest of his live.
If instead of a Washingtonian article, the first thing that happened after PJ Smyth’s arrival was a Nate Morales type serial raping all 3 of his boys, the first item on his agenda as new pastor would have been to change the church’s policy toward sexual predators, and any activity attributed to Satan would have been in reference to criminals rather than journalists.
If John Smyth had physically and psychologically abused or paraded naked in front of a child of an Anglican bishop, he would never have had access to another child in church context again; indeed, he would have served prison time and his name would have been included in the sexual offender’s register.
And ‘exCLCer’s mom’ was reduced to abject poverty because the church elders helped her husband drag out child support and child custody proceedings, not because she pressed charges against him.
The Adams family story epitomizes the cause of SGM/CL’s unrelenting public relations nightmare. One side says, “We did everything we could to help that family.” The other side says, “They did everything they could to harm our family.” Either John Loftness and Gary Ricucci are the heroes of this story or they are the villains. It can’t be both and it can’t be half and half. These 2 versions by their nature exclude one another. In the court of public opinion, the guys have been losing to the girls for a long time.
Thank you, CR.
Just saying, quite a few other families who were in the church at the time have come forward to say they never knew and would have taken the children into their homes had they known.
This is the first that I have heard that CLC really offered Peggy or any of her children any support. Most accounts have indicated that CLC really did little or anything to help her or her children.
Apparently not giving Peggy help was a control tactic that SGM Leadership used.
One of her children indicated that John Loftness took her to some type of county home (when Peggy was in the hospital) and said he would come back for her. John Loftness never did.
Also, it is shocking that it wasn’t until quite later (when this blog came into existence) that what Dave Adams did to one of his step daughters was known about by most people. It was a sadly guarded secret.
Steve, you may not remember but people have come forward before saying that some people from time to time went over to clean the house and to lend a hand. Many of them did try. They just were not informed of what was going on so many of them (by their own admission) criticized the family and couldn’t understand why they just couldn’t pull themselves together. There were a lot of people with big hearts in the church who would have and could have done much had they known. Many did know there was something wrong and blamed the mom instead of recognizing that there was much trauma there and that much of what they were going through was the fall out and of the abuse then the further cover up of it all.
I didn’t mean to say that people ONLY cleaned. I believe just saying when she says that people also let the kids sleep over and made meals.
That’s why the cover up and subsequently, the pastor putting the kids into the foster system was so tragic. There were literally thousands of people in the church, beyond dozens of amazing people who were in positions and had hearts to have taken the kids in. Like CR said, that would have happened had it been so and so’s kids. But how could they know when this was all being covered up?
Joburg Pastor Dragged Further into ‘Bible basher’ Scandal
http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2017/03/01/ex-joburg-pastor-dragged-further-into-bible-basher-scandal
I thought child protective services intervened and took the kids into protective custody for child neglect after one of the children reported their living conditions to someone at their public school. It seems that is what the newspapers at the time reported.
I know some or all of the children were farmed out to other families in the church for a period of time while people tried to help them improve their living conditions, but in the end CPS took the kids.
It seems after Ex-CLCer’s mom left the church and CPS took the kids, the pastors had no jurisdiction or authority to make any decisions regarding the children or to spring Ex-CLCer from foster care.
I have seen in numerous situations of abuse, where the father is suddenly removed from the home, the women are traumatized both from the abuse and from the overwhelming circumstances, and although he was the one originally at fault, she is no longer able to cope. Sometimes they implode. I’m aware of a situation exactly like that right now. And tragically, the father’s home is the most stable choice for the kids at this moment until mom can pull it together again.
People without churches experience this everyday and sometimes the government has to move in and keep the children clean and healthy and safe until there is a functioning parent again.
When DA got out of jail, nobody thought he would re-offend because of the terrible consequences of all of his biological children going to foster care. The punishment for his actions were severe. Nobody had read case studies about the likelihood of him re-offending. As far as we know, DA remarried, raised two grown daughters and never offended again.
All anyone knew was that mom’s home was not yet suitable for that many children, and mom was having more children which wasn’t really helping and DA seemed like the only hope of reuniting the children in a home again and getting them out of foster care where they might be abused also.
I will confess, I hoped DA would get the kids out of foster care, and I hoped the pastors would be intensely involved in talking to the children and DA to see abuse never happened again. I also hoped Ex-CLCer’s mom would rise and be victorious so she could be with her children.
At the time, the greatest threat felt like foster care and the abuse stories that flow from there. The sooner the kids were reunited with each other and in one home the better.
I did not know the pastors took any sides on that. But, I understand what a predicament they were in. One parent accused of molestation, one parent accused of neglect. Nine children.
There was no good answer.
According to exCLCer’s mom, he dragged out the custody and support proceedings for 7 years. And no one at the church told him to provide for his children
There was no good answer.
“There was no good answer.”
This is more spin.
There was not only a good answer, there was a best answer. Namely a large church with numerous families.
‘
The Maryland State Senate SB #668 hearing is approaching. The committee doesn’t accept testimony by email or fax. I’m overseas, can’t afford international express mail, and certainly can’t afford to fly in. Can someone mail this to Robert Zirkin, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee?
On March 8th 2016, Pam Palmer, Susan Burke, Charlotte Ennis, and Terry Mayo testified before your committee for and against SB #668. The timing of Charlotte Ennis’ testimony was not a coincidence.
In January 2016, PJ Smyth, new pastor of Charlotte Ennis’s church, Covenant Life of Gaithersburg, caught wind of a pending expose in Washingtonian magazine. During a members only meeting, PJ Smyth’s and Mark Mitchell’s explanation for negative media attention was that Satan was attacking the church.
In February 2016, the Tiffany Stanley’s article in the Washingtonian hit the news stands. Also in February 2016, Time magazine interviewed Tiffany Stanley.
Pam Palmer announced on social media that she was scheduled to testify at your hearing. Pam Palmer testified in favor of the same bill during the 2015 legislative session. Correct me if I’m wrong, but no one from Covenant Life testified before this committee in 2015. Instead, the Catholic Church sent representatives.
The explanation is that the church leadership has long assigned members to monitor key social media, the ex-member support message boards, and the religious abuse watchdog blogs for comments about their scandals. The most prominent of these is Kim’s SGM Survivor’s, Brent Detwiler’s website, Todd Wilhelm’s Thou Art the Man, and Dee Parson’s Wartburg Report. Pam Palmer probably didn’t tip off anyone online in 2015.
On March 16th 2016, just a week after Charlotte Ennis stood before you and tried to use your hearing as a venue for attacking the credibility of the plaintiffs in Susan Burke’s lawsuit, yet another Covenant Life member, Larry Caffery, was arrested for pedophilia.
Mark Mitchell learned of the Larry Caffery case on March 26th and informed his congregation on March 29th. It’s surely not a coincidence that Mark Mitchell’s announcement was on the same day SNAP posted an announcement about Larry Caffery’s arrest. Charlotte Ennis responded in the comments section of the SNAP article with some deliberate disinformation about the Larry Caffery case. How did Charlotte Ennis know about the SNAP report? That’s right, because Sovereign Grace has long assigned members to monitor news about its scandals.
On March 31st 2016, Mark Mitchell, Terry Mayo, Tiffany Stanley, and Pam Palmer were interviewed on WAMU’s Kojo Nnamdi’s talk show. On April 4th 2016, Larry Caffery was released on bail. On April 8th, the Maryland Circuit Court of Special Appeals overturned 3 counts of the Nate Morales conviction, casting somewhat of a shadow on future pedophile convictions. Pam Palmer traveled to Louisville to protest Charles Mahaney’s return to the stage of Together for the Gospel conference, April 12-14th 2016.
Charles Mahaney co-founded and still presides over Sovereign Grace, the denomination sued in Susan Burke’s suit. Charles Mahaney was also the co-founder and longtime head pastor of Covenant Life, which was the flagship church before Mahaney fled to Louisville. Sovereign Grace has been plagued with pedophile cases for decades. The 2 dozen or so who posted on sites like SGM Survivors and who joined the lawsuit are only the tip of the iceberg. The national and local leaders of Sovereign Grace and Covenant Life have an unofficial policy of covering up pedophilia, protecting pedophiles, and revictimizing victims.
On April 15th, Thou Art the Man correspondent Jaffa Chan caught Don Nalle and Bo Lotinsky offering their support to Larry Caffery in the courthouse. Don Nalle is the communications director of Covenant Life. Bo Lotinsky was executive director of Sovereign Grace. And who is Charlotte Ennis? She is the wife of Pat Ennis, executive director of Covenant Life and former board member of Sovereign Grace.
And why would Covenant Life assign Charlotte Ennis to testify at your hearing? Because Susan Burke has vowed to refile her lawsuit in Virginia. Renee Palmer Gamby is Pam Palmer’s daughter and one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit. She appeared at your hearing also. She put out a call for victims to contact Susan Burke.
Using a victory in the Maryland State Senate, the leaders of Covenant Life hoped to lobby the Virginia Assembly for legislation favorable to their church.
Josh Harris, Charles Mahaney’s replacement as pastor of Covenant Life and pastor in office when the lawsuit hit, fled to Canada. But not before inviting British pastor PJ Smyth to replace himself. PJ Smyth founded Advance, a denomination of churches in Zimbabwe and South Africa, and is in the initial stages of inducting Covenant Life into his denomination. So Covenant Life has a new pastor, but the old guard is still in power and still up to its old tricks.
In February 2017, Cathy Newman, investigative reporter for Channel 4 in the UK, exposed John Smyth, father of PJ Smyth, for excessive corporal punishment and inappropriate sexual behavior over a period of decades in the UK, Zimbabwe, and South Africa. PJ Smyth responded by publicly denying any knowledge of is father’s behavior. Thou Art the Man reported that PJ Smyth was informed about his father’s behavior and notified the investigative team in Zimbabwe that he would take no action. Thou Art the Man also reported that these church leaders in Zimbabwe contacted PJ Smyth to remind him after the news of his father broke. So it looks like the new man at Covenant Life is in similar company.
Also in February 2017, Immanuel’s founder and pastor Charles Schmitt was caught in longterm inappropriate sexual behavior with many young men in his church. Immanuel’s is one of the largest churches in the DC area. There is a striking similarity between Charles Schmitt and John Smyth. Both of them have a deep and longstanding craving for the bodies of boys/young men.
I should say Charles Schmitt was caught again. Turns out he moved to DC to be a mentor to Charles Manahey and Sovereign Grace co-founder Larry Tomczak. He was caught in the act with a young man in Covenant Life. To their credit, they removed him from ministry and advised him not to return to the pulpit immediately.
But when Larry Tomczak’s son committed a sexual sin against a Sovereign Grace member’s daughter, Tomczak covered it up. Turns out Larry Tomczak’s daughter was one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit. She accused him of making her strip for corporal punishment until she finally fled his home at age 22.
So there is much Covenant Life leaders don’t want you to know. And if cesspools like Sovereign Grace are going to cease being a scourge on society, you need to listen to people like Pam Palmer instead of people like Charlotte Ennis.
Thanks for the clarification Stunned.
just saying said, “I thought child protective services intervened and took the kids into protective custody for child neglect after one of the children reported their living conditions to someone at their public school. It seems that is what the newspapers at the time reported.”
I find it extremely difficult to believe that child protective services would talk to a newspaper about such a thing. I suspect if any newspaper reporter wrote such a story it would not have come from anyone who actually knew.
According to exCLCer AND her mother both, a pastor at CLC came to the hospital where the mom was suffering from exhaustion. This was after a loonnngg time of the activities above. (Abuse, the father refusing to provide for his children, all sorts of horrible things that would cause anyone’s body to break.) He asked the mother if he could have the authority to take over the children’s care. The very appreciative mother gave a resounding yes. Whereupon the pastor, instead of taking it to the church, turned the children into the foster care system where many of the children suffered and languished for YEARS where, I believe, their father fought for them to stay. The mom and children were told that if they would just drop everything about the alleged sexual abuse to the one daughter, he would take care of everything. But because they sought to protect that daughter, this was their punishment.
Do you know something from anyone more intimately related to the situation that has a different story?
Or…think whatever you want.
“Charles Mahaney co-founded and still presides over Sovereign Grace”
Does he? I thought he was long gone from presiding over S.G.M.
Is this real news or fake news?
Cult – Did you just trash Charlotte Ennis? Are you kidding me?
Terry’s husband was falsely accused in the lawsuit and Terry spoke up because this law could allow anyone to bring false accusations at any point in history and destroy anyone’s life like it did her husband’s.
Charlotte is her close friend.
The Ennis stayed at CLC when SGM split the church even though he had once been employed by SGM. That suggests he agreed with the concerns CLC had about SGM and their leaders.
Reminding you again…CLC and SGM are estranged from one another. It isn’t the same old guard.
It’s worth taking a look at the stories up above. Since we are on the subject, this is by exCLCer.
“EXCLCER’S STORY:
My mother got involved with Covenant Life Church (Take and Give, Gathering of Believers, People of Destiny International, Sovereign Grace Ministries, whatever) beginning with a festival called Jesus’76, got pregnant by one of the church members, and was advised to marry him. She did. So I along with my siblings were all in this church by default.
My mother was concerned when her 11 year old daughter had been “acting out”, having a “bad attitude” towards her husband, and the church had advised my mother to admonish her and demand she respect him as godly children should. When she found out a few years later that actually he had been sexually abusing her since age 11, she immediately called the pastors (John Loftness and Gary Riccucci). They handled this situation in the worst ways possible.
I could detail a hundred things they did next which only made the situation worse by blaming the victims, covering up the crime, and supporting the pedophile financially and legally. They even sent my mother to her care group leader for counseling who told her to God wanted her to send her daughter away so that this man could stay in the house as the head of the household.
Despite all of their pleadings my mother insisted on justice and pressed charges. They had claimed they were looking for counseling for my mother and her child, when really they were biding time, retaining legal counsel for this man, to allow him to turn himself in as a show of repentance. They pressured her to ask the court for leniency for this man who had abused her child. They testified as character witnesses for him in court. He had repented and been forgiven, just like that. We were all warned not to tell anyone in the church, even though the abuser was still attending — it would be gossip.
But my mother was not submissive enough and since she refused to ask the court to not send this tithing man to jail, we were all put out of the church, out of the school, and the pastors told my mother, our “poverty was self induced” because she had not been submissive to their guidance. My mother pleaded with the church for help, but they only further demonized her.
Having been a homemaker and mother for years in the church approved way, she had little means of providing for her 9 children. She went and got a minimum wage job and worked until it almost killed her. Our electricity was cut off, our house was in foreclosure, we were pretty much starving, and she came down with pneumonia and was hospitalized. Having offered no help so far, the same pastors showed up to let her know they would make sure all of us children were taken care of while she was in the hospital.
We ended up all split apart, turned over to the state child welfare division, and spent the next several years separated in foster homes, institutions and shelters. But the pastors care and concern only ever was for the molester — they arranged for the kids to “visit their father”, and arranged for my sister, the victim, to have to sit down in a meeting to accept his apology, so he could be forgiven and resume membership in the church.”
etc….., see stories.
Its been a while since I sat and read that page. I’ve been on there a while scrolling down tonight. So much spiritual abuse from the pastors. But the sex abuse cases really hit home just how bad it was. Remember Taylor’s story??
“One night, I am not sure why I did this, but I went into my daughter’s room to kiss her goodnight after her father had gone downstairs to get on the computer, and I said to her, “You know, honey, NO one, not even me or Daddy, has the right to touch you in your private areas”. And she started crying and said that Daddy had been doing just that every day for a long time, and making her touch him as well.
I fainted right there across her bed. Then quickly came to, and comforted her. I told her that it would NEVER happen again, and she would be safe from then on.
Then I went downstairs and confronted him. He fell to his knees and begged me not to tell anyone. I said I had to protect our daughter, so I called our associate pastor, whom I’ll call Pastor Bill. As I told Pastor Bill what had happened, my husband ran out of the house and got in the car. I ran after him and told him not to leave and he said he didn’t have any choice because now he was going to jail and he just couldn’t face it and indicated he would rather die than go to jail, then drove off.
We spent three days in agony not knowing where he was or if he was still alive. He turned off his cell phone. Pastor Bill came over to our house and talked with my daughter and made her tell him everything that my husband had done to her and for how long. After the first 24 hours, Pastor Bill gave the situation over to another pastor, “Pastor Fred,” to handle.
I was praised up and down for not calling the police but for contacting them first, for being a “Godly example” of a Christian wife, etc. When we went to church the first Sunday after the crisis, I was with two of my close woman friends, and they asked me what was going on, and I told them what had happened, feeling the need for support and help.
When I told Pastor Fred I had told them, he was quite upset with me for telling anyone, and reprimanded me for gossiping, and then had to meet with them and our care group to do damage control, to make sure no one would know what was really happening or had happened.
Finally my husband answered his phone on the fourth day, and the pastors convinced him to come back. But not to our house. They sent us to stay with my husband’s relatives (another family from our SG church) for several days and let my husband come get his things and move in with his mother.
We were all brought in for counseling with the pastors, first me and my daughter separately, where she had to again tell what had happened, and where she was told she needed to forgive her father, that she was a sinner too, and didn’t she feel that she had sinned by not telling me sooner, and we were made to feel that she had somehow sinned by allowing it to continue, even insinuating that maybe she had even wanted that attention a bit. She was TEN YEARS OLD.”
“CLC and SGM are estranged from one another. It isn’t the same old guard.”
They are 2 heads of the same beast. Same values, same MO, same behavior. Both of them saying, “I’m not the beast, it the other guy.”
“Did you just trash Charlotte Ennis?”
Charlotte Ennis trashed Pam Palmer and Dara Adams.
A few items about what David Adams did and how Peggy was treated from the Washingtonian Article:
https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/02/14/the-sex-abuse-scandal-that-devastated-a-suburban-megachurch-sovereign-grace-ministries/
and
As I recall Ennis left around the time the documents came out deciding to go back to secular employment. It looked like his job decision was decided before the documents came out. I am sure as executive director or whatever title he had the hypocrisy he saw especially at the end at Sovereign Grace Churches was the reason he left.
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS
In the Garden, when the Serpent first appears, he is making an accusation against God. In the book of Job, he is accusing the main character of the story. The prophet Zachariah saw a vision of Satan accusing Joshua the high priest. In Revelation, he is called “the accuser of the brethren who accuses them before God day and night.”
Jezebel used false accusers to murder Naboth so Ahab could take his vineyard. In the book of Daniel, the King of Babylon throws 120 governors to the lions because they accused the king’s best servant of being his worst servant. The Hebrew says, “they chewed Daniel to pieces.” When the remnant return from Babylon, their neighbors try to prevent them from rebuilding Jerusalem by falsely accusing them. In Psalms, David devotes considerable space to accusing tongues.
Moses establishes 2 or 3 witnesses as the standard for conviction. Jesus, Paul, and Stephen were all falsely accused at their trials. In Paul’s case, the scripture describes it as “many and false accusations which they could not prove.” Paul tells Timothy not to accept an accusation against an elder except on the word of 2 or 3 witnesses.
God considers false accusation so important, He includes it in one of the 10 Commandments: “Thou shalt not bear false witness.” This principle is encoded into our culture. Thus we have laws against perjury, slander, and libel.
CR
In addition to protecting pedophiles and re-victimizing the victims, they “degifted” the pastors of children who later joined the Burke lawsuit with questionable tales. Thus they created circumstances that came back to bite them. But they didn’t learn their lesson. Now they are recriminating the plaintiffs and indulging in disinformation and outright lies designed to confuse the issues. So in a classic sow/reap scenario, people on both side are violating the Ninth Commandment. “Do not be deceived. God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, he shall also reap. CR
Can somebody tell me if C.J. is actually running SGM?
That doesn’t sound right to me.
Drew
I thought CJ stepped down as leader a while back.. of course that doesn’t mean his influence and control is really gone. I am sure he still controls things behind the scenes..
According to the SGC website, there is no mention of CJ as a leader. However, he is senior pastor of Sovereign Grace Louisville, which is the church attended by various SGC leaders and the Pastor’s College students. So you can connect the authority dots from there…
I thought the Pastor’s college died?
Cult – Mark Mitchell isn’t “old guard”. He was never an insiders insider. I’m sure the leaders in SGM never let their kids play with his. He was a relatively isolated pastor who is very methodical and conscientious and not prone to any drama.
He is more the designated survivor at CLC and when all the leaders jumped ship, he was the one left standing.
There is no motive or reason for CLC to be concerned with testifying or being involved with these issues. These are 40 year old issues and those involved have moved away.
“Caffery was never a paid employee of Covenant Life Church.”
Why would Charlotte Ennis post this in the comments section of the SNAP article THREE MONTHS LATER?
Cult – Maybe because everyone gets tired of people trying to make connections to things that are inaccurate. I’m not personally involved, but it aggravates me enough to come on here and say so. Maybe she didn’t get around to perusing the internet until three months later? Maybe it bothers her because this is her church you’re talking about?
Even you said he was a “children’s minister”. That’s absurd. Nobody has ever heard of Larry. His autobiography is pretty disturbing and it is horrible to think he abused his child. It’s tragic this story publicly exposed her.
It isn’t surprising that two pastors showed up in court. They have always shown up when members are accused of crimes. It doesn’t mean they endorse the crime. It’s just their job. I would hope they took John Loftness’s recommendations in handling sex abuse to provide exceedingly more care for the victim’s family, although it sounds like they no longer attend and may not have wanted the pastor’s help.
I think the pastors did handle sex abuse cases internally. I think they honestly believed as pastors they were exempt from reporting. I think they honestly thought it was better for the victims to handle things quietly. I think they deeply regret that now and in the future will report. I don’t think there’s some sort of gigantic conspiracy.
Grant did not admit that he broke the law when he admitted he should have reported. It doesn’t sound like it was the law in the 1980’s. He simply admitted to regret for not reporting.
CLC has weathered a lot since the split. People are deeply grieving the loss of friendships ad family forever split. Their beloved leaders in SGM, the ones who started the church, the ones who taught them everything, the ones who prayed for them, are now slandering them to national Christian leaders. This has caused emotional trauma for a large number of members and I’m sure all of the pastors. The divorce rate has gone through the roof and the children are cursing the church and their parents for the actions of the leaders. I’m pretty sure CLC has not had time to be at all concerned with current affairs or conspiring with anyone.
The PJ Smyth thing is terribly unfortunate. CLC definitely didn’t need another scandal at this time and I’m certain they wouldn’t have deliberately brought it upon themselves for the sake of some sex abuse cover-up conspiracy refuge. Why would they do that?
“It’s over! It’s over! It’s over!”
Brent releases The Documents. “It’s over! It’s over! It’s over!”
Mahaney takes a leave of absence. “It’s over! It’s over! It’s over!”
Ambassadors of Reconciliation issues its report. “It’s over! It’s over! It’s over!”
Mahaney flees to Louisville. “It’s over! It’s over! It’s over!”
Harris withdraws Covenant Life from Sovereign Grace. “It’s over! It’s over! It’s over!”
Susan Burke files a class action lawsuit. “It’s over! It’s over! It’s over!”
Nate Morales is tried for pedophilia. “It’s over! It’s over! It’s over!”
Washingtonian publishes an article about the plaintiffs. “It’s over! It’s over! It’s over!”
Larry Caffery is arrested. “It’s over! It’s over! It’s over!”
PJ retracts his statement about Zimbabwe. “It’s over! It’s over! It’s over!”
It’s not over. It’s never going to be over until you realize you’re in a cult and start crying out to God to deliver you from deeply entrenched deception. Same goes for your leaders, who are severely confused at best and severely depraved at worst.
I recommend you disband and that your entire pastoral staff drop out of the ministry indefinitely.
Otherwise, there’s going to be another pedophile case, another lawsuit, another headline. And another and another and another. And another horror story revealed on this board.
And each time you issue a denial, you will push yourself further into deception.
Has it ever occurred to you that out of hundreds of churches in the DC area, only yours has been repeatedly kicked in the gut? Has it ever occurred to you that no matter many times you declare that it’s over, there’s always one more scandal?
How long will you continue to blame other people for your plight? How many times will you have to get kicked in gut before you realize the ugly truth about your church?
Do you think it was a coincidence that the Washingtonian article came out only a month after PJ arrived?
Do you think it was a coincidence that Larry Caffery’s arrest came only 2 months after Mark and PJ’s declaration that the congregation was moving on?
Do you think it was a coincidence that Mahaney returned to the stage of Together for the Gospel only a month after the Caffery arrest?
Do you think it was a coincidence that PJ’s father, after decades of escaping public exposure, started making headlines only a year after PJ arrived?
Do you think maybe you should stop saying to your critics “It’s over” and to yourselves “We’re moving on” and start saying to God, “You’ve got our attention”?
C.R., I’m kinda intrigued by what wartburgwhiners site suggested; you could start your own church. In that way you could make sure it’s never a cult.
BUT, thank you for spelling out your goal – the disbanding of CLC.
just saying said:
This is the first that I have heard of SGM Leadership “slandering” CLC to other national leaders. Do you have any details? It wouldn’t surprise me though.
It is unfortunate what came out about their new Sr. Pastor’s father and sad what is alleged his father did to these boys. Perhaps that is what CLC gets for seeming to want a big name pastor and perhaps again repeating the mistake of re-creating a personality cult like they seemed to do with both C.J. Mahaney and Josh Harris.
Just saying- CLC, and you personally, need to go back and reread the story of David and the Gibeonites. There was a famine in Israel, and God told David it was because of what King Saul had done before him, in breaking a vow to the Gibeonites and killing many of them.
David hadn’t hurt the Gibeonites. Saul and his house was long gone and Israel had moved on. New King, good days living for God. The old guard was over.
That wasn’t how God saw it. God insisted David make restitution for the sins of his predecessor before God lifted his judgement and famine.
You really need to reread that section.
Read some bible prayers of great men. Daniel fully identified when he prayed for Israel- “we have sinned”. Not they, but we. Same for Moses- he took on the sin of the people. Isn’t that what Jesus did- take on our sin and make intercession for us?
How hard is it for PJS and the pastors to make amends for the CLC past? Is it right to just say that they were not involved so forget the past and go on? Or would it be right to look at David and the Gibeonites and try to make amends for the past, whatever that restitution looks like?
I’d have to say it looks like God is trying to get CLCs attention and they aren’t listening.
Steve240 – The Louisville Loyal slander the members of CLC and former member of CLC and pastors of CLC when they make statements to the Christian world that they are being persecuted. When they do that, they are essentially calling you and I liars.
“thank you for spelling out your goal – the disbanding of CLC”
My goal is to end the abuse. Disbanding the church is a last resort. The ideal solution is to change your behavior. But it’s beginning to look like you’re just going to wait for the media to kick you in the gut again. Thus I suggested disbanding before the relentless scandals damage your reputation beyond repair.
Cult – What abuse do you think is still going on?
Oh for crying out loud! Less than 2 months after Mark Mitchell and PJ Smyth declared that Covenant Life was moving on, Larry Caffery was arrested. And it’s not just the abuse. It’s the coverup and protection and spin and recrimination.
We need CLC to have less sinful members. If you’re sexually broken, go elsewhere.
Cult – I saw some statistics recently. In the US, a fourth of the population has been molested by the time they are an adult. It happens in homes and at parties in clubs and sports and activities involving children. If 4000 children have passed through the doors of CLC in the last 40 years, that would be 1000 children who would be molested before they are an adult.
I’m not seeing those numbers. I’m not seeing anything at all resembling those numbers. Even if there were another 200 that never came forward, CLC is much safer than any other community or school or town with a similar sized population. That is not to discount the suffering of the victims. Even with just one victim, it is too much.
I can’t remember all the cases, but isn’t Caffrey the first case in about 20 years?
I hate to break it to you, but there are child molesters everywhere…lots of them…and nobody knows what they are doing in their homes until someone comes forward.
You don’t hold towns responsible for someone abusing someone in their home, because they have no control over that.
What is it you expect the church to do? It looks like they’ve been pretty successful at shutting down opportunity at church with the stringent security checks and background checks and two-person rules. But, unless you want them to go hog wild with the Shepherding movement again and go home with everyone and spend the night, they can’t prevent everything.
They are deranged people out there. And, sometimes they go to church. And, they’re unpredictable.
Five – This is what needs to happen.
CLC needs to publicly call for the SGM leaders in Louisville to repent and be reconciled to the congregation they abandoned. They need to call for them to own the spiritual abuse of the 1980’s. First take it to the men directly, then to their church, then to The Gospel Coalition.
If they fail to respond, then CLC should take a Sunday to educate the congregation about spiritual abuse. They should describe the techniques that were employed and the sort of wreckage it created. They should publicly support those who were victimized by spiritual abuse and require the same of members. They should clearly state how their behavior was a contradiction of the goodness of God. They should communicate hope and wholeness to those who were emotionally and spiritually harmed. And, they should apologize on behalf of God regardless of whether SGM ever repents. They should offer restoration to the broken.
Then, they should record that service and widely disseminate it through members to former members, through social media, put it in the newspaper and to other local churches.
The victims of spiritual abuse in the 80’s aren’t in church at CLC on Sundays.
Just Saying, you’re starting to make sense.
Just saying, that was beautiful.
It’s getting rare these days for me that I would say something appears to be the gift of prophecy where God speaks and it isn’t the canon of scripture. But in this case, I will say it regarding your post. Not infallible canon, but I do think the word of the Lord to CLC. Thanks.
By the way the spiritual abuse was going on in the 90s, I saw it. And I’ve read about plenty of it in the new millenium as well. Not just the 80s.
I will be honest. If they did all of that, I would log off of here forever and go on with my life.
Hopefully you go on with your life regardless of what other people do.
Just saying, I think you have laid it out well. I would add that we attended from 2003 to 2012 and spiritual abuse was as strong as ever and continues today.
With regards to what should happen to CLC, I am not shy. If the pastors really and truly cared about the Kingdom, they would shut it down and disperse the congregation in small enough groups to other churches so the patterns wouldn’t repeat. But they won’t.. In my conversations with them in 2012, it was evident that what they cared about was reputation. As cynical as I had become back then it was still shocking to hear them go on and on about their concerns for their own names in the meetings we had about the Forum.
It comes down to this, which has been said here again and again. God will not be mocked. It makes one shudder. What breaks my heart are all the people who continue to be spit out the back of that place broken and alone.
Pete – “spit out the back of that place broken and alone” would describe my experience and those of many people I loved.
I guess I wish they would own that.
I heard Josh insisted on being transparent with the congregation when Grant’s testimony in the trial contradicted the statements they had made to the congregation. Some of the old-time pastors threatened to resign if Josh was transparent because any admission of anything could be mis-construed as guilt in the lawsuit for some of the guys, including false accusations. Josh said if he violated his conscience and wasn’t transparent, then he HAD to resign. He went out the next day stressed out, fumbled through his statement, didn’t clearly confirm or deny anything, said he didn’t know exactly what the truth was and admitted to being molested himself. Later, he decided to resign.
When all of the chaos broke out, Josh responded by leading the congregation in fasting and prayer before God. That was the right response in the beginning. The lawsuit complicated things.
The Louisville SGM leadership completely left Josh Harris hanging. He was faced with members and the press demanding answers for things that went down on their watch, and they failed to come forward.
Considering CJ “spit a lot of people out the back broken and alone” if he thought they might be divisive, he sure had no conscience in splitting the church himself.
The only way to restore unity is to validate the abuse members experienced so the other members would recognize their complaints are true and warranted. Then, the church can move forward towards healing.
All that being said, I still disagree with Cult’s theory of this being some big sex cover-up cult. I completely agree it was a cult which employed spiritual abuse to control. And, I completely agree that because of spiritual abuse, tragic circumstances like sex abuse weren’t handled well either. But, I don’t believe the church is a sex abuse conspiracy cult. Sex abuse was not a prevalent issue.
News of John Smyth has spread across the Atlantic. No less than the New York Times, which has conducted its own investigation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/04/world/europe/britain-mansion-child-abuse-archbishop-canterbury.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/04/world/europe/britain-mansion-child-abuse-archbishop-canterbury.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/topic/subject/child-abuse-and-neglect
London Times article about the PJ retraction.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2017/03/01/Ex-Joburg-pastor-dragged-further-into-Bible-basher-scandal
Brent has a post up about the Smyth incident including PJ:
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/lead-pastor-pj-smyth-deceives-covenant-life-church-about-kno.html
Steve- it is just so awful. What a sordid tale. I feel sorry for the people at CLC. (not as sorry as I feel for the battered kids with blood running down their legs). After all they went through I think they truly believed they finally had a good senior pastor and were so happy and hopeful. Now this. It isn’t what his Dad did, nobody should blame PJ for what his Dad did. But the way he has lied about the meeting and follow up in Zimbabawe and claimed to forget details, well, the man is not honest (assuming all the information presented is correct. Given the credible sources it appears to be). If PJ is not removed I don’t see how people can stay at CLC.
5yearsinPDI
It is quite sad. Brent does do his research and you would think PJ would something this horrific about his father.
As I said before, perhaps this is a consequence of trying to keep CLC a “personality cult” by using a name pastor.
A certain major Christian news periodical led me on at considerable length, asked me to jump through a more than one hoop, and at one point even asked me to do their job for them.
They gave me the impression they were very interested in my piece linking the ring of DC connected cults, going back to my experience, and tying it in with the current PJ situation.
Notice expressions like “fascinating” “powerful” “wow” “gratefully received” “massively appreciated” and “much appreciated” and statements like “We would publish this in major lights” and “very keen that we do what we can with this.”
…..
Thanks for the message. Any extra info gratefully received.
I’m very much still with you. Have those links. Thank you very much indeed. Fascinating.
Keep it coming? OK:
Wow. What powerful points. You are of course absolutely right. So tell me: how would you answer those key questions?
You are so right.
Not yet I must confess. I haven’t been on the Washingtonian story but I will, ASAP I assure you.
Thank you very much for all of these. Much appreciated…
It’s very helpful.
Wow. Thank you. Very much indeed. Bless you.
Understood. Will talk to my editor today.
Are you able by any chance to merge everything you’ve sent / you have into one pasted email so I can forward it to my editor and discuss? Without our exchanges? Would that be possible?
Yes, I know and rate [ Investigative Journalist X ] highly. You’ve done very well indeed.
Thanks so much. Please also add the point about your own investment in the story. And please paste into an email – not an attachment. Thanks you very much indeed.
Thanks. Timeline good. You know how we journalists like to be spoon fed. Thank you again.
Thank you so much indeed. Massively appreciated.
Hi. Right, so I have spoken to the editor and he is very keen that we do what we can with this. The trouble we have is finding a simple, clear way of doing it as a news story. What would the headline be? What would the story be?
Dare I ask, might you be willing to skip to the part where you tell your story? That might be the way in to make maximum impact.
Might we talk on the phone? Or if you’d rather, then do please reply to the above. Thanks so much.
Thanks. I will aim to call you tomorrow.
Since you are experienced in journalism, I wondered whether you would like to have a go at drafting the first story as you think it could be published.
Thanyou
Understood
Is now a good time?
Would it be okay for me to call next week?
Understood. Thankyou.
Thank you very much for this. Speak soon.
That would be excellent. We would publish this in major lights.
Understood, of course.
Thank you so much for this. I will read with fascination. Thanks so much again.
Great. Thank you.
Thank you.
Understood. I can aim for tomorrow.
Hi. Thanks for all this. I am not working at CT today and am tied up with something else. Can you kindly send me, by the end of tonight, the final version and anything else you want published with it including timeline in a copy and pasted format – not as an attachment. Thank you very much.
PS please also bear in mind not to assume knowledge: in other words, to put people in context for the reader who may not have heard of any of the players. We can offer you a fee of [ X amount of money ]. I am sorry it’s not more. Thank you again.
Yes I rate [ Investigative Journalist X ] highly too. Thank you for that intel.
I hope all is well. Thank you again very much for the piece. I am very sorry to say that the editors have decided we can’t run it. This is largely because there are too many allegations and it would leave is too vulnerable to legal action.
…..
So below is the allegation filled article that will not be published in a major Christian news periodical.
CR
“We’re shaking the snake off into the fire!”
Part 1
I’VE HEARD THIS BEFORE
The name John Smyth has become notorious. But his son, PJ Smyth, has been making his own negative headlines.
PJ Smyth is the new head pastor of a mega church that has had its own name dragged through the headlines for years. Covenant Life Church, one of the largest churches in the Washington, DC area, has seen 3 of PJ’s predecessors depart under a cloud.
Hardly a month after arriving from South Africa, PJ caught wind of a lengthy pending feature in Washingtonian magazine about a class action lawsuit that involved Covenant Life and its former denomination, Sovereign Grace Ministries. Plaintiffs accused their former pastors and executives of a longstanding unofficial policy of going to extraordinary lengths to protect and redeem pedophiles at great expense to their victims.
The lawsuit was dismissed on a technicality, but garnered the plaintiffs plenty of publicity in the court of public opinion. Covenant Life blamed the situation on Sovereign Grace and vice versa.
Covenant Life pastor Josh Harris, who had already pulled the former flagship church out of the denomination over messy leadership disputes with headquarters, issued a mild admission to the victims, accompanied by an equally mild explanation and an equally mild apology, then he resigned. Now the Washingtonian article was creating more bad publicity for a church that had already been through more than one major ordeal.
(Adding to their already national reputation would later be a Time magazine interview with Washingtonian writer Tiffany Stanley.)
So how does PJ respond to this first major crisis under his watch? He and executive pastor Mark Mitchell called a members meeting, warned the congregation about the Washingtonian article, and attributed the timing to persecution from Satan. Covenant Life had a new pastor and was trying to move on, so the reasoning went, this was Satan trying to prevent them from moving on.
It was a familiar story. I heard it when I was in a cult closely associated with the DC crowd.
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Part 2
NEGATIVE HEADLINES
Sovereign Grace founders Charles Mahaney and Larry Tomczak would often speak at the conferences of Maranatha Campus Ministries. Maranatha was founded by Bob Weiner and all 3 of them had been leaders of the Jesus Movement. To this day, in guest columns in leading Christian magazines, Tomczak still refers to Bob Weiner as his “good friend.”
(Popular youth minister Winkey Pratney, another longtime close associate of Weiner, was also a staple as Maranatha conferences.)
Disapproving of Shepherding Movement abuses, Tomczak once stood up at a Maranatha board meeting, looked down at Weiner, and said, “This is the most ungodly and oppressive thing I’ve ever seen, Bob, when are you going to stop this?”
These ungodly and oppressive shepherding practices would bring Maranatha to the attention of Christianity Today, the Wall Street Journal, and the Chronicle of Higher Education, WSJ and CHE putting Maranatha on the front page and CT launching an extensive investigation.
Add to all this, city and campus newspapers raising the alarm, a report by a committee of cult watchers, and many calls from concerned parents to Cult Awareness Network.
Greg Ball was Maranatha’s chief evangelist, a board member, and a senior pastor in one of its major chapters. Ball referred to the CT and WSJ articles in one of his sermons to our congregation.
He invoked the Books of Acts story about a snake attaching itself to the hand of the Apostle Paul. The island natives in the story expected Paul to quickly swell up and die, but Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no harm.
Ball compared the negative media coverage to the snake and compared Maranatha to Paul. Snapping his wrist with demonstrative body language, Ball declared that Maranatha would shake the public criticism off and move on.
Maranatha did not shake the snake off into the fire. A few years after this sermon came the CHE article. Maranatha disbanded a few weeks later.
Turns out that snake would cling to Ball’s hand for a long time and he would eventually swell up and die.
………………..
Part 3
MORE NEGATIVE HEADLINES
A few years before Maranatha’s demise, Ball and Maranatha vice president Rice Broocks launched Champions for Christ sports ministry. Broocks would later relaunch Maranatha under a new name with Ball and several other major board members.
Then Champions began to grow, as did Ball’s reputation as a sports minister.
Then the negative headlines began again. The National Football League launched an investigation into Ball’s close associate Greg Feste, a financial advisor who consulted for high profile members of Champions, including Ball’s disciple Mark Brunell, an NFL quarterback and the public face of Champions.
Ball would recruit athletes, then introduce them to Feste, who urged them to tithe their 7 and 8 digit salaries, as well as donate generously. The natural outlet for their tithing and donations? Ball, his church, Broocks, and Champions.
This was followed by investigations by Sports Illustrated, the Florida Times-Union, and the Chicago Tribune, as well as reports in almost every major national news media outlet. Meanwhile, the sports columnists had a field day with Feste, the financial advice that he claimed was scripturally based, and the ethical considerations of lucratively mixing religion, money, and work.
NFL Hall of Fame cornerback Darryl Green, a longtime disciple of Ball dating back to their Maranatha days, was furious. Green told Sports Illustrated, “I pray to God for men who started this!” He viewed all these negative headlines as a snake that needed to be shaken off into the fire. He later called the NFL and lobbied them to shut down their investigation.
Throughout all the public discussion about Champions, the word “cult” was bandied. Ball and Green kept an impressive poker face, pretending they had never been involved in a religious organization that was investigated by the media and that was widely considered a cult.
When Feste launched his own football team, the Wranglers, he squandered millions of dollars of investment, much of which came from Champions members. Brunell declared bankruptcy in spite of following Feste’s advice and in spite of starting businesses with him.
Broocks dismissed Ball from his church and Championship leadership positions. At his height, he was America’s #1 locker room evangelist. He disappeared overnight and has not been heard from since. Green and Brunell, after so staunchly defending him so many times in so many public venues, never breathed his name again.
I think it’s safe to say Ball didn’t shake the snake off into the fire.
A former kick boxing champion, Ball’s favorite Bible stories were stories of violence. In his sermons, he quoted from violent movies. Addressing the topic of dominion, he whopped the pulpit and said, “Men that means to dominate!”
So here was a man who counseled athletes that real manhood wasn’t demolishing their opponents on the other side of the field. Yet he obviously associated manhood with fierceness and aggressiveness.
I tried several times to talk to Ball about the deep flaws in his life. He was utterly dismissive of me and refused to hear me out. I just had a root of this and a curse of that and once I got delivered, I would realize that nothing had ever been wrong. To him, I was just another snake to shaken off into the fire.
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Part 4
REPEAT SCENARIO
Then the scenario repeated itself with Broocks’ new denomination, Morning Star. Former Maranatha members exposed Morning Star as Maranatha without Weiner. Meanwhile, the local media covered a lawsuit by parents of teens who suffered psychiatric damage under Morning Star’s Victory Clubs, a high school ministry. Broocks changed the denomination’s name to Every Nation and shut down Victory Clubs.
Too late. One of the 3 founders, who had spent most of his adult life as a missionary, left the Philippines and relocated to denominational headquarters to do damage control. Broocks’ longtime buddy, Morning Star’s chief financial officer and its 3rd founder, was investigated for embezzlement and thrown under the bus like Ball before him.
Broocks was put “on sabbatical,” a Maranatha code word for being outmaneuvered by a colleague and was sent to study in Jerusalem for a while. (In Sovereign Grace, the code word is “degifted.”) I knew Broocks from his early Maranatha days.
Though I didn’t deal with him as extensively as Ball, I tried to talk to him and he dismissed me in the same classic manner. Snake, fire.
I’m not the only one who tried to get Broocks’. Tom Sirotnak, who built the Champions for Christ momentum that Ball inherited, tried to confront Broocks and his embezzler, who was notorious for using Champions money to live a lavish lifestyle. Snake, fire.
While Weiner has been making a comeback ministering to international college students studying in America, Broocks was making a comeback as the architect of the “God’s Not Dead” surprise hit Christian apologetics drama film series. He is poised to become the 3rd wave of recent Christian apologetics, after Josh McDowell and Ravi Zacharias. Taking his cues from Weiner’s campus vision and Broocks’ own book, “Change the Campus, Change the World,” he has vowed to raise an army of 1,000,000 Christian campus apologists.
It’s only a matter of time before the media discovers Broocks’ cult past. Then the headlines will begin again, then Broocks will declare that he’s going to shake the snake off into the fire.
After Mahaney outmaneuvered Tomczak for control of Sovereign Grace, Tomczak joined forces with Broocks. After Tomczak’s daughter joined the lawsuit, Tomczak’s association with Broocks disappeared from his website. Seems Tomczak has been degifted – again.
(Tomczak, BTW, is the author of “God, the Rod, and Your Child’s Bod.”)
Not to be deterred, he now bills himself as a “cultural commentator.” He publically picked a fight with popular gay talk show host Ellen DeGeneres and later gay Miss America contestant Erin O’Flaherty. DeGeneres responded, Tomczak responded to her response, and there were lots of headlines. I suppose in this case, Tomczak welcomes the headlines as a boost to his new career. No snake, no fire.
………………..
“We’re shaking the snake off into the fire!”
Part 5
“We’re moving on.”
So, PJ Smyth declares his intention to shake the snake off into the fire.
He didn’t have to wait long for more headlines. This time, the headlines came from the spiritual abuse and sexual abuse watchdog blogs – and the Washingtonian again.
Only a month after the Washingtonian article, yet another Covenant Life member, Larry Caffery, was arrested on charges of pedophilia. SNAP and Washingtonian reported on Caffery’s arrest.
When Mitchell reported Caffery’s arrest to his congregation, he did not remind them that they were going to shake the snake off into the fire. When he was interviewed by WAMU, he took the official line: We don’t protect pedophiles.
(During the same broadcast, WAMU also interviewed Stanley and lawsuit organizer Pam Palmer.)
Only 2 weeks after the WAMU interview, Janna Chan, a correspondent for the popular Thou Are the Man blog, caught 2 Covenant Life officials in the courthouse offering Caffery assistance. One was Don Nalle, Covenant Life’s communications director. The other was Bo Lotinsky, former Sovereign Grace executive director.
Only a week before the Caffery arrest, Covenant Life member Charlotte Ennis, wife of former Covenant Life executive director Pat Ennis, attended a Maryland State Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on extending the statute of limitations in sexual abuse civil cases. Ennis tried to discredit the testimony of the plaintiffs.
State Senator Jamie Raskin had to tell her, “The purpose of this hearing is to consider the pros and cons of this bill, not to re-adjudicate a court case.” Ennis also played spin doctor in the comments section of the SNAP article – 3 months later, after charges against Caffery were dismissed.
Not dropped, just dismissed. The prosecutor considers the case still open. Meanwhile, Caffery is under a one year restraining order. Nalle and Lotinsky referred to Caffery as a church member and asked him what the church could do for him. Mitchell neglected to mention whether Caffery still had access to Covenant Life children.
Former Covenant Life youth minister Nate Morales’ criminal case became even more famous than activist attorney Susan Burke’s class action lawsuit. Ennis insisted at the hearing that the cases were separate.
By the luck of the draw, Ennis was technically correct on this count. One of the plaintiffs was a former Covenant Life member and was scheduled to be the main witness in a 3rd case against Morales. The first 2 cases were sufficient to ensure Morales would spend the rest of his life in prison, so the prosecutor saw no need for a 3rd case.
Had this plaintiff been a witness in either of the first 2 Morales cases, the Morales and Burke cases occurring back to back, Covenant Life’s public relations nightmare would have been much worse.
One day before Caffery’s first court hearing, Palmer traveled to Louisville, new home of Sovereign Grace’s headquarters, to protest on behalf of SNAP Mahaney’s invitation to speak at the Together for the Gospel conference.
(Palmer had also testified at the senate hearing and was also a guest on the WAMU show.)
Though bloggers and plaintiffs insist they have evidence Mahaney has known about pedophile cases as far back as the mid 90s, unlike his disciple and handpicked successor Harris, Mahaney has held his line: I have never protected pedophiles.
Mahaney is determined to shake the snake off into the fire and move on.
In addition to relocating to escape Covenant Life office politics, Mahaney’s definition of moving on is to join the ranks of celebrity Calvinists, abandoning his Charismatic roots. Those ranks include Albert Mohler, president of Louisville’s famous Baptist seminary.
One has to wonder if PJ was aware of what was going on during this period. Was he the clueless patsy who hadn’t done his homework or was he the sinister co-conspirator who had embraced the party line?
………………..
Part 6
WIDOWS AND ORPHANS
Although Palmer was the main subject of the Washingtonian article and although it’s her name that is most often mentioned in news coverage, it is the story of Peggy and Dara Adams that has received by far the most buzz on the ex member message boards.
After Peggy caught her husband sexually abusing Dara’s sister, Dara and her siblings were put into a foster system that Dara discovered was anything but fostering. Mother and daughter have their version of how this happened and the Covenant Life pastors assigned to the family’s case have their version. Both versions are hotly contested to this day.
One aspect of the Adams’ ordeal is uncontestable: A mega church, the flashship church of a denomination with 100 chapters, somehow did not find homes for these virtual orphans.
Dara found herself tied up in a psychiatric ward for daring to question the way she was treated by the foster system. Her family was never together again. Every year on the anniversary of being torn from her mother’s side, she sent snail mails to the pastors demanding an admission and an apology.
They did not respond to her until they found themselves in the headlines. She did not consider their response contrite or conciliatory and declined their offer to meet. At the senate hearing, Ennis brought up Dara’s 20 year old criminal record.
The pastors involved in this polarizing episode departed with Mahaney and are still trying to shake the snake off into the fire. One of them resigned from the Sovereign Grace board.
Has PJ made any attempt to reconcile with the Adams’ or any other former members who have dragged the name of his new church – and are still dragging it – through the mud so many times? Is he even familiar with their testimonies?
During the meeting about the Washingtonian article, he did state he had followed the headlines before accepting Covenant Life’s offer.
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Part 7
BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING
Even before headlines about sexual abuse, even before headlines about denominational politics, former members revealed that their lives were closely monitored, recorded, and reported.
The former secretary of Sovereign Grace’s longtime #3 man Brent Detwiler confirmed this: “I was a church secretary at the Charlotte church when Brent was senior pastor. The Care Group Leaders faxed their reports to Brent the morning after every Care Group meeting. I had to copy and deliver those reports and I absolutely hated that part of my job. I also knew where the files on every member were kept. When I left that church, my Care Group Leader pulled out a spiral notebook and flipped to my page. On that page he had documented every meeting (not just Care Group meetings, but pointless women’s meetings, singles’ meetings, whatever) that I had not attended.”
There are a multitude of churches in the DC area and very few are considered cults. Is it a coincidence that these other churches also don’t indulge in this classic cult practice?
Has PJ acknowledged, renounced, and ceremoniously ended this and other cult practices? Has he made any fundamental changes? Or is his sole response to his congregation’s longterm heavy baggage to simply assure them they will shake the snake off into the fire?
………………..
Part 8
WE WARNED YOU
Charles Schmitt was an early father figure to Charles Mahaney and Larry Tomczak.
A few years after they brought him to the DC area, they removed him ministry. Schmitt had been caught in the act of homosexuality.
Against Mahaney and Tomczak’s advice, rather than seek counseling and restoration, Schmitt left and started his own church. Immanuel’s church grew to be one of the biggest Charismatic churches in the DC area.
After being ousted by Mahaney, Tomczak reconciled with Schmitt and preached at Immanuel’s. Tomczak’s visit to Immanuel’s was during controversies over Mahaney’s leadership. Immanuel’s bulletin the Sunday of Tomczak’s sermon had an insert stating that Immanuel’s would not get involved in the Mahaney controversy.
Just 2 weeks before the John Smyth story, Immanuel’s announced that Schmitt had been removed from ministry again and had been struggling with “inappropriate sexual contact with adult males for many years.” They also stated that there had been “multiple victims and co-participants” and urged other victims to contact them.
This was followed by a members only meeting. The congregation was told during the meeting that “no children were involved and no laws were broken.” It was also announced during the meeting that one of Schmitt’s victims is one of Immanuel’s young pastors.
……………
“We’re shaking the snake off into the fire!”
Part 10
YOU AGAIN
One also wonders if any of the Covenant Life elders have pulled PJ aside and whispered in his ear about the #1 scourge of all things Sovereign Grace/Covenant Life, prolific blogger and busy activist Brent Detwiler.
When it comes to insider knowledge and sheer volume, religion watchdog blogs like Thou Art the Man, Wartburg Report, and Wandering Eagle have nothing on Detwiler. For those willing to plow through his reams of detailed material, his website is a virtual archive of who, what, and when.
When the self-anointed nemesis of Mahaney publicly released 600 pages of internal memos, he set in motion a chain reaction that eventually led to PJ taking the reins.
After Mahaney fled DC, Detwiler seized on the sexual abuse scandal to reinvigorate his blog. He counseled some of the victims and personally confronted at least one of the alleged perpetrators. He also filed an affidavit in the lawsuit and showed up at court proceedings.
Though he was virtually forced into retirement in 2009 and no longer attends a current or former Sovereign Grace church, apparently he still maintains relationships with many of the current and former leadership.
Tomzcak contacted Detwiler when Ambassadors of Reconciliation was investigating Mahaney. Lotinsky wrote to Detwiler about his own disappointment with Mahaney and Tomczak. Detwiler claims to have met with Pat Ennis for 5 hours in January 2016 and offered him evidence of a Sovereign Grace board approved hush fund in one of the sexual abuse cases. And many other examples.
Detwiler claims to have trained or pastored 12 of Covenant Life’s leadership team of 18.
Detwiler’s latest blog post is a lengthy rant against PJ. As always, he sent a letter to the subject of his post and demanded to be accommodated. How do we describe Detwiler? Crusader, prophet, gadfly, interloper? One wishes PJ luck on this front.
………………..
Part 11
THE CALM BEFORE THE STORM
Well, things calmed down for PJ for several months. Then Cathy Newman of UK’s Channel 4 broke the news about his father. What followed was 3 letters to his congregation, 2 Q&A members meetings, and a video.
In all this discussion about PJ’s father, one statement was conspicuously absent: “I have spoken at length with my father about these allegations and my father told me…” PJ was 45 years old when his father started making headlines. When he was 38 years old, he said in a sermon that he spoke weekly by phone with his father and that his father always ended these weekly conversations with the same words: “OK, Pete, keep going, lots of love, bye bye.” PJ lists John Smyth and Terry Virgo as his 2 chief Christian role models. In the past, PJ has obviously never hesitated to speak publicly about his relationship with his father. What about now?
Then the Thou Art the Man snake latched itself onto PJ’s hand again. The blog claimed to have a source that PJ was confronted with his father’s abuses while they were both still in Zimbabwe.
Also, TAM wanted to know: 1) How could PJ not know that 4 of his uncles and aunts had a falling out with his father over the abuse of these boys? 2) How could PJ remember that a boy under his father’s care drowned, but not remember that his father was arrested and charged with the death of that drowning victim? 3) How could he not remember that his father fled Zimbabwe soon after the drowning? 4) How could PJ not notice that his father and the other boys were parading around the camp naked and taking showers together?
According to this same source, Robert Mugabe intervened to get John Smyth out of the country before he could be prosecuted. A notorious African dictator helping a Christian minister with a secret perverted personality cult become a fugitive from justice. Just when you thought it couldn’t get any stranger.
Covenant Life elders investigated and helped PJ retract his account. At the same time, they declared PJ innocent of any wrongdoing.
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Part 12
AN INAPPROPRIATE RESPONSE
The contrast between the way the Smyth and Smyth situations were handled on the 2 sides of the Atlantic is striking.
Church leaders in the UK, Zimbabwe, and South Africa confronted John Smyth. And as we learned recently, they confronted PJ too. They also expelled him, or resigned if he refused to change. They didn’t contact the authorities, warn other religious organizations, or issue a public announcement. But they intervened to shut down the source of the problem. And when they were questioned by the media, they were straightforward.
In DC, PJ and the elders alike have indulged in spin doctoring, recrimination, and convenient superstitious perspective. The elders didn’t get involved until they were forced to do damage control. Even when they back pedaled, they insisted everything was still OK.
In the PJ case, they claimed he never really did anything wrong, adding that they fully vetted him during the hiring process. They even invoked the involvement of Virgo in the hiring process. In the case of the Washingtonian article, they attributed it to a spiritual enemy, not their own behavior. In the Larry Caffery arrest, they were diligent to distance his behavior from any official church activity.
PJ’s response to both situations was to close ranks with those he is in league with, not to protect former and potential victims. He has displayed no compassion for the victims of his predecessors or the victims of his father. His only concern has been to salvage his reputation.
After all the explanations, excuses, and accusations, children under PJ’s care are no safer than they were under Harris, Mahaney, or Tomczak.
If, instead of a Washingtonian article, the first thing that happened after PJ Smyth’s arrival was a Nate Morales type serial raping all 3 of his boys, the first item on his agenda as new pastor would have been to change the church’s policy toward sexual predators, and any activity attributed to Satan would have been in reference to criminals rather than journalists.
– 30 –
“We’re shaking the snake off into the fire!”
Part 9
THE UK CONNECTION
The UK’s highly respected Terry Virgo was intimately involved in PJ moving to Covenant Life. PJ’s Advance denomination started as part of Virgo’s New Frontiers denomination. Virgo’s son-in-law, Stephen van Rhyn of Jubilee church in Cape Town, is best mates with PJ and made the initial suggestion to relocate to DC and Covenant Life. Harris called Virgo, who called PJ.
Virgo and Mahaney/Tomczak spoke at one another’s conferences and churches. Virgo said of Sovereign Grace as late as 2007, “We do have excellent fellowship with Sovereign Grace Ministries led by C.J. Mahaney and certainly we have a great deal in common with them.” When Mitchell formally announced PJ’s hiring to his congregation, he said of Virgo, “He’s been a friend of this church for many years.” Indeed, as late as 2011, while Harris was pastor and Mahaney was on leave of absence dealing with political turmoil, Virgo spoke at Covenant Life and blogged positively about his visit.
Virgo’s life, ministry, and work have been without controversy or scandal. But one wonders if Virgo truly understands the labyrinth of issues PJ has inherited.
………………..
Oops
PJ came to Covenant Life through 3 or 4 events he views as divine appointments. Reminds me of Larry Tomczak running into Rice Broocks in Vanderbilt Hospital. Broocks was based in Nashville. Tomczak was based in Atlanta. Tomczak flew into Nashville for eye treatment. Maranatha founder Bob Weiner is a longtime close friend of Tomczak. What were the chances of Weiner’s former right hand man being in the same room of the same hospital at the same time as Tomczak considering Tomczak was in town for only a few hours? PJ’s story is below. Tomczak, btw, wrote a book entitled, “Divine Appointments.”
……….
HOW PJ SMYTH CAME TO COVENANT LIFE CHURCH
In December 2014, PJ Smyth was eating with Terry Virgo’s son in law, Stephen van Rhyn of Jubilee church in Cape Town. PJ describes this relationship as best mates.
PJ shared the direction he saw his ministry going. He saw himself moving away from planting and directing a network of churches and helping one church achieve its goals. He didn’t see himself staying in South Africa. He said probably UK, but possibly the US.
Rhyn suggested Covenant Life in the DC area and listed several reasons the position would be ideal for him – great church, Reformed-Charismatic, east coast (easier for international travel), big city. PJ didn’t think too much of this proposal.
In January 2015, Rhyn called PJ and excitedly told him Covenant Life had to be the place because Josh Harris, Charles Mahaney’s replacement as Sovereign Grace flagship pastor, had announced his resignation only a month after their conversation.
PJ responded by proposing a test. Neither of them would put out any feelers with anyone. If Covenant Life came to PJ, that would be their sign of God’s hand in the opportunity.
Virgo had a longstanding relationship with Mahaney and preached at Covenant Life while Harris was pastor and Mahaney was on leave of absence dealing with controversies over his leadership of Sovereign Grace. PJ’s Advance denomination grew out of Virgo’s New Frontiers.
Sue Robb, one of the leaders at Covenant Life, lobbied Harris to lobby Virgo. Virgo called PJ in March 2015. The next day, Harris called PJ.
So PJ went through the interview process with the church’s search committee, guest preaching there in May 2015. In August 2015, PJ was voted in by the congregation.
In December 2015, he finally got his American visa and transplanted from South Africa.
PJ is in the initial stages of adding his new church to his Cape Town based denomination/network.
Excellent review of CLC. This is amazing.
I believe at first reading that you have not missed anything at all and that it is accurate. Except that PJ obtained his visa and arrived at his new home in the Gaithersburg area on December 22, 2016, not 2015.
Thank you for all of your work on this report.
Quotes from Charisma magazine proving cult leader Rice Broocks was the catalyst for the surprise hit “God’s Not Dead” movie series.
…..
Broocks was telling a friend, businessman Troy Duhon, about the book he was writing—God’s Not Dead: Evidence for God in an Age of Uncertainty—when Duhon stopped him in his tracks. “That needs to be a movie,” Duhon said. He ended up connecting Broocks with Pure Flix Entertainment.
Michael Scott, founding partner of Pure Flix and co-producer of God’s Not Dead, says the Pure Flix team met with Broocks shortly thereafter: “We talked about the ideas of taking the Newsboys song ‘God’s Not Dead’ and the apologetics book and turning them into a movie, and the process started. Within a year and a half after the process started, we came out with God’s Not Dead.”
Broocks began sitting down with the screenwriters and explained to them the tensions on college campuses. He says he even helped write the apologetics-heavy classroom scenes in the movie.
At the initial meeting with Pure Flix’s owners in 2011, Broocks laid out his vision for the God’s Not Dead movement: “We need a million young people in this country alone who can defend their faith. This is what it’s going to take.”
That vision was carried by former Pure Flix CEO Russell Wolfe until his unfortunate death from ALS last May. Broocks says Wolfe’s dying wish was, “Please let this become a movement.”
Already his wish is being fulfilled. Broocks’ book has been translated into many different languages, and the first film has been seen worldwide by 25 million people—and that’s by Broocks’ own conservative estimates. Broocks is releasing a new book, Man Myth Messiah: Answering History’s Greatest Question, which ties in with the film’s sequel. And the God’s Not Dead Facebook page alone has over 8 million likes.
All very interesting CR. Thanks.
CR, I Lived through a lot of that, made it out alive,have the scars to prove it, and am still recovering. So forgive me if I just skimmed what had to be the longest post ever on this site. I am just unclear as to why you are posting a mostly correct summery. What exactly are you trying to accomplish ?
“Excellent review of CLC. This is amazing. Thank you for all of your work on this report.”
“Thanks for taking the time to write out all the sordid connections. I suppose it is mostly here already in bits and pieces but you managed to consolidate a lot.”
“Thank you for all your hard work organizing timelines and details. Greatly appreciated.”
“What exactly are you trying to accomplish?”
Makes me chuckle when a few other people say “Thanks for putting all the pieces of the puzzle together for us” then one person says “So what?”
battered but unbroken, I am connecting all the dots to demonstrate that you’re not dealing with any one person, any one church, any one organization, any one event, any one issue. You are dealing with a value system that is responsible for the identical mentality and actions of a ring of intertwined people. There’s a reason these people hang out with each other. They recognize other people who desire the same thing and who use the same methods to achieve their goals. They know a kindred spirit when they see one. Eventually they betray one another motivated by this same value system. Eventually their behavior brings them into infamy. They flee, then reinvent themselves, and the cycle starts again. Even in cases where they eventually get busted beyond recovery, they have operated for a long time and have left a long trail of appalling carnage. So what you’re seeing is a continue chain of events over a period of decades involving the same people over and over. The drama erupts every few years. The next controversy is in a different context, but the script, the players, and the outcome are always the same.
C.R., you appear to think you’re tracking the D.N.A. of a cult.
Frankly, I think you’re simply tracking the D.N.A. of everyday, garden variety sinners that make up the church; be they goats or sheep.
Drew, the behavior of these corrupt ministers is far more sinister and far more damaging than that of the typical SGM/CLC pewsitter. Same goes for the contrast between what they appear to be and what they actually are.
And this is different from the typical denomination/church how?
“And this is different from the typical denomination/church how?”
There are a multitude of denominations and how many of them are as notorious as Sovereign Grace. There’s nothing typical about any of this.
Notoriety doesn’t actually prove difference.
Sin is quite typical – nothing new under the sun.
“Notoriety doesn’t actually prove difference. Sin is quite typical – nothing new under the sun.”
Oh for crying out loud! Are you really going to carry on this charade? How much stench has to fill the air before you stop pretending you don’t smell the stench?
There was a stench in Corinth. Paul called it stench. He told the Corinthians, “You have a stench in your church.” Then he told them, “Get rid of the stench.” He didn’t say, “Sin is quite typical – nothing new under the sun.”
Drew, if you are truly asking a serious question, I think in the past Kris has done a really good job of helping people to explain the difference between this kind of stuff and regular churches. Many of us, hundreds of us, have left SGM and found regular churches and have been surprised to find the difference between those churches and the SGM church they left behind to be quite big. If you’re curious, I think you can do a search, though off the top of my head, I have no idea what you’d search for. Maybe someone else here can help?
That said, many people who came out of SGM have found similar, unhealthy or authoritarian churches. I think each of us needs to figure out what drew us to an authoritarian church in the first place or we’ll keep winding up in the same situation, whether it be in another church or in other relationships.
I do understand your question. I used to think the same thing when I was in SGM and for a while after I left, until I got very involved in a church and explored it for years only to find that this stuff in SGM was not just your garden variety sin. Good luck wherever you are in your walk. Hope you’re well.
Stunned
Cult Watcher,
I was in a church in Gainesville, FL in 1977 which was connected with the Shepherding Movement. In that year Bob Weiner started Maranatha Ministries at UF and my brother and many of my friends joined Maranatha. The Gainesville church eventually became the headquarters of Maranatha. I knew LG who later became editor of a national Christian magazine.
In 1985, I moved to the DC area and joined CLC. I am still at CLC, having seen the stories unfold of CJ, Larry, Josh, and now PJ. I personally know many of the leaders. I was in South Africa in 2003 and there heard of PJ from Zimbabwe.
In other words, I have personal experience with the Shepherding Movement, Maranatha, SGM, CLC, and now PJ and his offshoot of Terry Virgo’s New Frontiers.
5yearsinPDI, I really like your analysis of David, Saul, and the Gibeonites and how it applies to Sovereign Grace Ministries, Covenant Life Church, and PJ Smyth. CR
BoughtTheField, I spent one of my Spring Break’s remodeling the Maranatha house in Gainesville. I knew Lee Grady and wrote an article or two for Maranath’s newspaper, The Forerunner, even had a correspondent card. The Forerunner was a Dominion Theology organ. Maranatha’s Providence Institute had a mutual admiration club with Reconstructionist leaders Gary North and R.J. Rushdoony. One of the Providence Institute’s founders was our pastor for a while. I subscribed to Institute for Christian Economics’ book club for a few years. I once called R.J. Rushdoony’s office to interview him. His administrative assistant declined to patch me through to the reclusive grandfather of Reconstructionism. Upon hearing that I was a Forerunner correspondent, he checked with Rushdoony, who agreed to an interview. Lee Grady was founding editor of The Forerunner. He was Charisma’s editor for many years and often wrote favorable feature articles about Maranatha ministers.
So, any insights based on your diverse experience?
Cult Researcher,
There was a difference in the way Maranatha and CLC expressed authoritarianism. Maranatha was more in-your-face blatant while CLC was more subtle. Here is an example.
Maranatha: “Your are in sinful rebellion against church authority! You went home to visit your parents without asking and you missed important church meetings.”
CLC: “Is there some reason you didn’t trust your servant leaders? We noticed that you went to visit your parents without seeking our wise counsel. We hope you trust us more net time.
*next time*
Cult Researcher
You might find my blog of interest on Maranatha. It was featured here:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/02/10/maranatha-ministries-reconsidered-steve240s-new-blog/
I haven’t posted that much recently.
Sadly the author of the book “Raising Jesus: The Story of the Maranatha House” Thomas Cooper recently died. Before this person died I had quite the discussion on the above post with this now deceased author including wondering how one could title a book supposedly on the history of Maranatha that included the words “raising Jesus.” Especially at the end the group were more “razing” Jesus or at least misrepresenting Jesus vs.”raising” though I am sure they leaders thought they were “raising.’
Steve240, I’ve never been able to access the Wartburg Watch. Could have something to do with being overseas. But even with a VPN, I can’t access it. I heard someone was working on a book about Maranatha. They interviewed a board member friend of mine. But I didn’t hear it was published.
Q: Is Covenant Life Church planning to join Advance?
A: A number of Covenant Life elders and wives have attended Advance gatherings in the last year and are sharing their impressions with the congregation through members meetings, coffees and one-on-one interactions. To help the church learn more in 2017 and extend hospitality to the leaders of Advance, Covenant Life will host an Advance Global Conference in June, with two evening sessions open to the congregation and many opportunities to serve during the event. Ultimately, Covenant Life’s affiliation with a network of churches will require both congregational involvement and a vote of affirmation.
Does the leadership of this denomination want a church with so much baggage and that has made and continues to make so many headlines?
Cult Researcher
Here is the link for the blog:
https://mmireconsidered.wordpress.com/
You can view the blog directly there.
Thanks Steve, but Google, Chrome, Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, Word Press, Blot Spot, Live Journal, etc, are not accessible here, and the my Internet provider shut down my VPN. CR
Thoughtful article:
http://baylyblog.com/blog/2017/03/sexual-abuse-church-coverups-dont-justify-witch-hunts
Steve 240 (and anyone else interested)
Many updates coming out of Immanuel’s Church.
Summary
-Charles Schmitt is resisting his forced resignation
-his youngest daughter was fired (according to her “for no reason”, according to others allegedly due to inappropriate response to her father’s issues… involving text messaging a young adult salacious details her father’s molestation of the young adult’s father.)
-Schmitt’s oldest daughter believes that other pastors have “staged a coup”, and has written lengthy defenses of both her sister and father
-she stated that Charles was asked to sign a doc stating no member of the family will start a church within 100 miles (sounds familiar)
-she stated that the accusation of “inappropriate sexual contact” were slanderous and untrue
-all pastors have taken a pay cut. Several employees released because they cannot afford to pay staff
Weren’t there witnesses, ie, “victims and co-conspirators”?
Where does Schmitt’s wife stand on all this?
BoughtTheField, that was good insight.
To: RT Says
Thanks for the Immanuel’s Church update!
Charles,nor his family, will not go gracefully into the night.
Please continue to provide updates. This is another tragedy in the Body of Christ.
Galatians 101
Yes there were victims, but victims have remained silent (perhaps they feel shamed?) Most, if not all, have left the church.
Schmitt’s wife initially was absent from church gatherings but has returned and is supporting her husband and family. The church, some say, is like a family business, so his wife is stepping in in his absence.
RT
Thanks for the update. It sure is basically quiet about Charles Schmitt online. You don’t see anything posted about him stepping down or the allegations. All you can read is that old blog post that goes back like 10 years.
The only thing that I have seen that confirms something is up with Charles Schmitt is how he has been basically erased from the church’s blog page.
I am sure Schmitt having family that are in leadership at Immanuels is making it harder for what he did to be addressed. Who knows, his daughters may be in denial not wanting to believe their father has done what people are claiming.
It sure is a sad situation. I am sure it is hard for many to want to admit what the founder of Immanuels has apparently done and perhaps been doing for such a long time.
Masterful article by Boz Tchividjian on sexual abuse re-victimization.
http://religionnews.com/2015/05/15/a-grand-deception-the-successful-response-of-sex-offenders/
Good article, CR.
One of the best lines from it, ““I am the real victim here.” The pinnacle of the grand deception is achieved when offenders successfully convince others that those who refuse to “forgive and move on” are the actual perpetrators.”
How often do we have people come here to proclaim, essentially, the same thing? “Move on,” they tell us. I will do so when the Lord releases me from caring for those who have been harmed and continue to be harmed. Until then, I’ll continue to come back here and keep an eye out for those who show up bloodied, bruised and broken. God has released some. Not me. Not yet. I’d rather wear the clothes with blood spatter if that means I keep my arm around those still bleeding than looking and smelling nice and clean while stopping my ears to their cries.
Stunned, thank you for all you have done and do. It means much to me and many others.
Brent Detwiler has a post up about Charles Schmitt:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/charles-schmitts-50-plus-year-history-of-homosexual-sex-with.html
battered, I’m so grateful for this community and what we have all been able to do for one another. Thank you for your kind words. I look forward to meeting many in the great beyond. (Not that I’m rushing toward that any time soon. ;) )
The members meeting specified “no children were involved” and “no laws were broken.”
Ugh. It makes one want to throw up. So they were all consenting adults? Technically yes. But in reality, troubled souls sucked into a powerful seducing spirit. (SGM was the same way minus the sexual sins.) It is all over the place today. Pray for revival.
Thanks for the Boz article.
with SGM’s continued male cowardice style I am totally shocked that they can read scripture and refuse to understand that churches are not supposed to create victims of any kind…..
loving kindness was a keystone of Christ’s life yet so many of these SGMers consider themselves to be prime examples of Christ fearing men ???
Well if what Charles Schmitt did was with an employee or Charles did this to a church member he was counseling then I don’t think you can really say that “no laws were broken.”
This sounds like one of the ploys that Tchvidjian pointed out in the article recently mentioned where he has step two is to claim it isn’t as bad as it sounds.
As RT seemed to indicate it sounds like Schmitt’s family is trying to circle around and protect their “family business.” Someone was menitioning that one video seemed to show smaller crowds at Immanuels. If this is true then I am sure the contributions are down there forcing to lay off some staff as RT pointed out.
The tragedy of Schmitt is he was a manipulator and used his spiritual authority to prey on young men, particularly those who had been sexually victimized previously. He convinced them to participate in homosexual acts and then when he was exposed, he claimed it was mutual. When his predatory behavior was exposed, his victims were excommunicated as homosexuals also and irreparably damaged.
When you are 40 or 50 or 60 and in a place of spiritual power, molesting 19 year old boys is sexual abuse and molestation and they are your victims. If you were victimized by this manipulator, please come to understand that before it destroys your life further.
Charles and Dottie – The blood of these young men is on your hands.
I see a striking similarity between Charles Schmitt, Nate Morales, and John Smyth. They forge a fake father figure relationship with vulnerable and trusting young people. When the bond is formed, they use their position to betray them. Here’s another similarity: A longstanding, deeprooted, uncontrollable for the bodies of boys/young men. So what is at issue with Schmitt is not that he has been struggling with desires or that he indulged in behavior forbidden by the church. Rather that he portrayed himself as the opposite of what he is so he could prey on those in his care. He pretends to be the shepherd who tends the sheep, but he is the wolf who devours them. He is the predator in this situation, not the victim.
So when are the parents who attend churches like CLC, SGM’s churches, and Immanuel’s, and who know about this kind of predatory behavior – when are they going to see a correlation between the strict obedience, don’t-challenge-authority methods that are held up as the gold standard, and an increased vulnerability to leadership abuse? And I am not just talking about the abuse of young children, I am talking about people who are technically adults, but who were raised in these environments and who find themselves unable to stand up to authority when something is happening that they don’t want to happen because it’s not in their programming.
I am not blaming the parents, by the way, for children being abused by spiritual leaders (or teachers). What I am saying is, now that we know this goes on frequently in churches, has anyone reevaluated and changed what is taught about raising kids (and how it is enforced/reinforced at the schools and in youth classes and meetings)? There is a clear link. Churches attract troubled people (as they should), and in an environment where kids are taught vigilantly to be obedient, and they (and their parents) are disciplined and ostracized if they do not go along with the program, is it any wonder that child sexual abuse occurs so frequently? It can be hard to spot the predators, but the kids can be better equipped…
Our discernment needs a violent upgrade … evil leadership has easy pickings when those they “lead” do not pay attention and act on the warning signs of danger and promptings from the Holy Spirit that something is not right … how can these situations go on for decades and no one takes the sword to it? Or worse, no one notices? Jesus and Paul and John and all the true prophets warn us against wolves and posers and infiltrators … the prophets owned the Word that God gave to them to speak and stayed true to the truth even when persecuted or killed . We have got to look at how the message that is supposed to protect and liberate has become a snare set by evil doers to trap the unwary. There is too much passive acceptance of things that are from the pit of hell. “If you see something , say something” is not gossip but our duty to keep each other safe . We are our brother’s keeper .
I met Schmitt and talked with him. I listened to a few of his sermons, at a conference and later by cassette. He stuck me as having enough spiritual rhetoric to appear to be passionate about spiritual things yet decidedly lacking in spiritual insight.
CR…that is exactly the way I would describe Mahaney.
“Our discernment needs a violent upgrade ”
Paying attention to history, the “upgrade” is not coming.
One kinda significant difference between Schmitt and Mahaney – C.J. has apparently been sexually faithful to his wife; not a small thing in this day and age. Neither is he rich.
Drew, define “rich”. Please.
Not sure if I would agree with your indicating that Mahaney isn’t rich. It can be a matter of definition. It has been discussed on this blog that Mahaney:
– Gave his old Gaithersburg house to one of his daughters and SIL
– Apparently paid for the expensive adoption costs for his daughter and SIL for twins(?) or at least one child from Africa. This is something that is quite expensive as I recall being discussed.
– Takes his extended family (son, daughters and SILs) on nice vacations.
Mahaney might not show a lot of wealth but apparently he has significant dollars. In some ways it is smart to not flaunt it such as having a nice car or large house etc.
Drew- Steve did not include the private, out of Papa’s own personal bank stash, gift of 100,000 to Al Mohler’s baby (ie, SBTS).
How many people do you know who are approaching retirement age, and also have kids they may want to help out, who can freely give away 100 grand?
I guess it is a matter of interpretation to define the word “rich”. But in a nation where over half of the working people make less than 30,000 a year, he is not average.
As CEO of a large business that had several dozen franchises, he was probably very amply paid. That’s normal. It was a business. You can’t understand this blog or SGM until you grasp that it was a business.
I remember people at my church eating oatmeal for dinner to try and give a little to the building fund, and CJ came in to do a fund raising pitch. (That was long before he blessed Al with a bribe to get his Pastor College students into classes at SBTS, which didn’t work out so well in the end.) Maybe back then when they begged us to dump our college savings and retirement investments and every nickle we had into SGM castles, maybe CJ wasn’t so well off back then. But when he gets to giving away 100,000 of his own money, he is well off.
I’d rather live on a park bench than end up like that….
Good point 5yearsinPDI.
I forgot about that large contribution Mahaney made. I am sure his investment of $100k paid off quite well for Mahaney just like some business people get with their campaign contributions.
Also good point about SGM really being a business and as some have said a business with franchises. Also suggested is it being like Amway.
Moreso, the latest assessment says that middle class income for a 2 person household is $34,000 to $102,000. I don’t know how much income CJ makes per year but other factors are, also, included in what one considers rich. Like above was said, giving away houses, and 6 figures usually isn’t the behavior of someone who is not rather comfortable.
As a complete aside, yesterday I read an interesting article on what is considered “rich” here in the US. One point was that for many people, rich is double what your worth is now. In other words, if you make 28k a year, 56 is rich. If you make 100k, 200 is rich. If you make 60k and all your friends and everyone you surround yourself with makes over 125k, you think you are poor. Nope, you’re still middle class. It’s just that they are above the realm of middle class. Heck, I had a relative who made over 400k a year and considered themselves a failure. It all depends on whom you surround yourself with.
The SGM model up until Summer 2011 reminded me of Starbucks. At Starbucks, they work very hard to maintain a culture that creates a certain “feel” regardless of what “location” you go in to. The Pastors’ College was like a management training program, where the managers/pastors went to make sure they understood how to create and maintain that vibe in their location. We will never know everyone’s heart and what their motivations were 25 years ago, but things certainly evolved that way.
Businesses need to make sure they stay in tune with changing tastes or they become irrelevant….. But churches need to make sure they do not leave their first love, lest their lampstand be removed.
We have all been guilty to some extent folks…. “it is a faithful narrative of a sad tale”.
I am a victim of Charles Schmitt and his sexually inappropriate behavior. During 1989-1991, I worked and volunteered at Immanuel’s Church in Silver Spring, Maryland. Schmitt showed an interested in me as a newly converted Christian and found ways to be alone with me for a “special hug” to show how much God loved me. Schmitt’s behavior was a slow increase of the heat (frog to boiling water) as I did not initially realize what was happening. I did appreciate the attention and felt very honored to be even noticed by a Church leader of such high standing, the Head and Founder of a mega-church. I had only been a Christian for approx. 1 year and I was not mature or wise enough to know what I was being groomed for … I was a naive 19 year old and so desperate to be in God’s good graces after a life of worldly sin. Schmitt rubbed my back over and under my shirt. Schmitt massaged my butt and rubbed his erection against my leg and pelvis. Schmitt rubbed my head and hair and told me how special I was and how much he and God loved me.
The last day Schmitt did this to me I remember extremely vividly. We were in the Sanctuary behind the main stage curtain and in the Baptismal tub area. Schmitt had asked me to come back to this location to “talk and show me something.” Schmitt touched me all over … and in my head I was freaking out … screaming inside but silent outside. I was not being raped but I was being molested. After it was over I ran … I ran away physically and mentally. Later that same day, as I completed my workday at Immanuel’s, Schmitt asked me into his office and asked if I would be interested in traveling with him. He asked if I would be OK going with him on mission outreach trips. He asked if I would be OK with staying with him, in his room, on these trips and then he asked me if I would be OK with “sleeping with him” in the same bed on these trip. He said the Church did not have the money for two hotel rooms and that many of the Apostles traveled in twos and slept together under tough conditions when the circumstances dictated it, while serving the Lord.
On that day … I had had enough. I was so ashamed and disillusioned with God, religion, and the Church leadership but I knew this was very wrong and had to be dealt with. I hated Charles Schmitt and I was suffering from what he had done to me. I am still suffering from the trauma today (2017), sum 30 years later. I told my parents the sorted and horrific facts of this sexual molestation as I sobbed like a small child. My parents accompanied me to confront Charles Schmitt in his office at Immanuel’s Church. He did not deny anything I accused him of … but … nor did he directly admit to my accusations either. He was crafty as a snake in his words and responses. He referred to his wife’s book (Dotty Schmitt) and to his own non-public writings which discussed his “struggles with certain things of a sexual nature.” I left the meeting with no resolution but at least I felt as though I tried. My parents offered to help me further but I retreated into my own closed and broken world.
Over the next month I told Dotty Schmitt and one of Charles’ daughters what happened (full and direct details) and how their husband/father had been with me. I told several other Church leaders at Immanuel’s Church and at Camp Sonshine, which is a closely affiliated children’s camp with shared leadership and physical property at the Immanuel’s Church location, off New Hampshire Ave, Silver Spring, Maryland.
Then I left the Church and never looked back on this until March 2017.
Back then I was just too young and too uneducated and too damaged to handle any of this sexual and Church and God related darkness. I felt that it was likely that Charles Schmitt was going to continue to have sexual relations with young men. I felt that it was likely that the Schmitt family, specifically Dotty Schmitt, was going to continue to protect their money train and cover-up Charles Schmitt’s conduct. I felt that it was also likely that Immanuel’s Church leadership was going to continue cover-up Charles Schmitt’s behavior as the Sunday congregation numbers grew each week and the money came in for building projects, salaries, and other outward growth facade reasons. I knew all the people who were in positions of power to stop Charles Schmitt’s sexual misconduct where also in positions where their careers and professional futures and support income were tired to making sure the Church (Immanuel’s Church) did not have any failings (public or private) which stopped the people coming and therefore the associate money flow.
It could be said that “Hiding the Truth” was in everyone’s best interest except for God’s, the Body’s and the victim’s. We all know this to be the case and if you do not agree, I would refer you to Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Peter Popoff, Tony Alamo, Eddie Long and the non-comprehensive list at https://letmetellyouthis.wordpress.com/tag/list-of-christian-evangelist-scandals/ or http://www.essence.com/2010/09/28/sex-scandals-christian-church-eddie-long (These lists are the evidence of what has happen in a Christian context, how it happens at Churches/Ministries, and how silent bystanders (perhaps you or me) let it happen then and into the future).
Immanuel’s Church should not survive … the doors should close … it is not a Sanctuary nor place of God.
Immanuel’s must immediately remove Charles Schmitt and Dotty Schmitt and the entire complicit Schmitt family (remove the limbs lest the body die) from any and all leadership positions and bar them from the property and all future contact or involvement with Immanuel’s Church.
Immanuel’s Church has experienced sexual scandals with senior membership, suicide in the Church building, financial misconduct by senior leadership, as well as many others signs from God that something is very wrong there (these are just the things I know about but I am sure there are others which never made it public).
Perhaps it’s time we listen to God and close this place down for Good … for God … and for the good of the Body … once and for all time.
Nice to see this back up
Mark Mark, I’m so sorry to hear what you suffered. I’ll continue reading what you have to say. Just wanted to know many people stand with you.
Mark Mark, I can’t believe your courage in not only confronting Charles Schmitt but in, also, going and telling his wife, his daughter and other leadership in the church and people at the camp.
I suspect you have no idea how strong you are, not only now, but then.
You were NOT a silent bystander. I don’t know you, but if you were my family member, I’d be so proud of you.
Mark Mark, thank you for taking the time to tell us what happened to you. I believe your story, and I am very sorry for your experience.
As a former member of CLC/SGM, It’s very interesting to think back on that night decades ago when then-Gathering of Believers had an emergency meeting to announce that Charles Schmitt would be stepping down and why. CS was at that meeting, and had a group of supporters with him, and things got a little testy. I wasn’t sure whom to believe at the time, and I had friends who subsequently announced they were sick of leaders on both sides of the issue. I chose to believe the allegations against CS, but it was a situation in which I had to trust what someone else said – I myself had nothing to go on, either way. And this left me wondering over the years about what the real story was, especially in later years when it became apparent to me that Larry and CJ were, in fact, willing to cover things up to protect themselves.
I no longer have any doubts. But Larry and CJ are not heroes because of that night, either – they could have been, but their motivation to eject CS at that time was apparently self-serving, not based on any larger ideas about protecting the flock. As Mark Mark mentions above, people want to protect careers and income. And there is the key – Larry and CJ’s careers and the future of their church was not in jeopardy if CS was excommunicated (and it was in jeopardy if he stayed). But a whole host of events in the coming decades did threaten the existence of their empire and their livelihoods, and what did they do? They covered up, and issued strict instructions about how “if you are not part of the problem or the solution” you should not talk about anything. I can’t think of one occasion where they truly put their careers on the line for the sake of the truth.
This is a fundamental principle I learned during my time with CLC / SGM / SGC – if one of the main leaders’ income was in jeopardy, if the existence of the church was in jeopardy, then the truth would be obscured. It would either be hidden or re-told/re-defined to protect the image required to keep the incoming coming. This is a fundamental principle you can always, always, always count on…and this is true not just with churches, but anywhere.
Mark Mark, again, thank you for taking the time to share your story, though I know it was difficult. But it helps bring a little clarity/certainty to my own murky history with CLC/SGM/SGC, and I no longer have to wonder about that issue…
And I agree with what Stunned said – Mark Mark, you are very strong to have confronted Schmitt’s family as well as him, and even now to bring this up again and tell the story to strangers.
And thanks, Kris and Guy, for restoring this site!
Mark Mark: Thank you for your courage. I am amazed at your strength and articulateness. I’m sure you don’t feel strong, etc. but thank you for coming forward to confront them at that time – what courage that must have taken! And for coming forward now. There must be many other victims and I pray that they see your comment here. I also hope and pray for your continued healing from that sick, sexual and spiritual abuse.
And Kris & Guy, Thank you for coming back online!
I’m so glad to see the site working again. Thank you, Kris and Guy, for all you have done. I hope you are well and enjoying a wonderful life after all things SGM.
And good news: MD signed into law yesterday a bill that:
” increases the window of time a victim of child sexual abuse has to file a lawsuit from age 25 to 38.” But “the statute would not be retroactive and would apply only to victims 18 or younger at the time of its passage. The bill gives those victims until age 38 to file a lawsuit against a person or governmental entity that “owed a duty of care to the victim,” employed the alleged abuser or had “some degree of responsibility or control over” the alleged abuser.”
Kris and Guy, thanks for restoring the site. Please let us know if there is any way we can support you in keeping this blog open!
It’s all good. I was out of the country for a bit, and something expired. No issues anymore.
Mark Mark,your story needs to get out there, so many men have been a victim but to ashamed to talk. I too was a victim of two perverted catholic priest back in 79. Thank God nothing serious happened. Thank you for sharing.
Mark Mark
I cried all night reading your post, primarily because I’ve heard the exact same stories from others.
The big question now is Larry. Larry, why on earth would you make a public statement of reconciliation with CS knowing the truth? How could you do that?
OutThere – I stand behind CJ and friends for publicly ex-communicating CS at a time in history when churches would never have had the courage to throw someone out. They did the right thing.
Unfortunately, that went to their heads and soon they were excommunicating anyone who failed to demonstrate loyalty to them and now the entire Southern Baptist Convention is courting them to learn how to be dicks to their people.
The worst aspect of the CS fiasco was his large number of followers, all in different states of his predation. Young men were being affirmed with pseudo-affection to embrace his perverted assault as a declaration of their identity. This man forever altered their identity, affirming his perversion as their new identity in Christ. He forced compromise and compliance on vulnerable young men, old enough to call them consenting, yet twice their age. He twisted trust, when suddenly in that public meeting, he…and they had this questionable identity yanked from them and learned their spiritual leader was actually an abuser. And they…were not identified as homosexuals…a sin.
CLC should have sought intensive counseling for the scores of young men who were spiritually abused by this predator. They should have had the opportunity to extract their identity from that of their abuser. They should have been reaffirmed in their identity in Christ. They should have been told, that although young adults, his position of power over them made them victims and not accomplices. They were assaulted.
The men who were rejected by the church when Schmitt was ex-communicated NEVER RECOVERED.
Now, I will go cry.
Mark Mark – CS did not define you. He was an abuser.
I am so sad and depressed. How many vulnerable young men did he pursue? How many teenage young adults were seduced by his promises of healing and spiritual wholeness from their childhood trauma…in some cases even had already been victins of sexual abuse. How many young men placed their hope in him while he made promises and used his power to entrap them privately. How many young, impressionable boys were influenced and submitted to his homosexual advances that felt wrong to them. How many stood in terror while this manipulator violated their bodies with slick words of manipulation. How many victims of CH came to identity themselves as gay While they were abused and violated, he pointed to them and identified them as “gay”. Sadly, these men were not just identified, rebuked for being gay, they lost all of their community and fellowship and found themselves a ragged mess outside the church with a label across their chess.
Cry now.
Thanks, Guy.
Good to know that you guys are well. Your work has meant a lot to me.
I was just looking at the schedule for TGC 2017 and out of the 70 speakers, guess whose name I am not finding listed?
Think there’s a chance that Pam Palmers, et al’s protest and appeals last year pricked their conscience and they decided not to have him back?
Guy, no better excuse than getting to travel! Hope you guys had a great time.
I said, “Think there’s a chance that Pam Palmers, et al’s…”
Please, pretend I did a better job punctuating that.
Thank you Guy!
Hi everybody. I am happy to see the site is back. I was a little worried about Kris and Guy having some sort of catastrophe- thank God all is fine.
Mark Mark……I am sooooooo sooooo sorry. May God give back the years the locust has eaten; may God repay for double for all the enemy stole away. You have a future and a hope. Thanks for telling your story.
Good to see you posting here again 5 Years.
It is a sad story that Mark Mark shared. It is sad how Immanuels seems to be hiding this history of Charles Schmitt.
He has risen!
The Lord is risen indeed. Alleluia!
“I was just looking at the schedule for TGC 2017 and out of the 70 speakers, guess whose name I am not finding listed?”
Good news!
“Think there’s a chance that Pam Palmers, et al’s protest and appeals last year pricked their conscience and they decided not to have him back?”
Conscience, no. Survival instinct, yes. Press coverage of the protest likely got their attention. Particularly a lengthy article in the Daily Beast.
Mark Mark’s testimony is more good news. This is confirmation of a coverup almost from the beginning of Immanuel’s.
” increases the window of time a victim of child sexual abuse has to file a lawsuit from age 25 to 38.” But “the statute would not be retroactive and would apply only to victims 18 or younger at the time of its passage. The bill gives those victims until age 38 to file a lawsuit against a person or governmental entity that “owed a duty of care to the victim,” employed the alleged abuser or had “some degree of responsibility or control over” the alleged abuser.”
More good news! Looks like testimony from Pam Palmer and Susan Burke, and Jamie Raskin’s hostility toward Charlotte Ennis, had an impact.
Anyone have an update on Larry Caffery? His restraining order expired on April 1st.
“The men who were rejected by the church when Schmitt was ex-communicated NEVER RECOVERED.”
Just Saying, I’d be interested in more about how CJ and Larry treated Schmitt’s victims.
I’ve heard 2 versions. In one version CJ and Larry offered Schmitt restoration, but he decided to remain in the ministry, so he started his own church. In the other version, they kicked him out, so he started his own church.
A pastor told me Schmitt was not an official pastor at CLC, but developed his own large following of young, impressionable men, particularly the vulnerable. He was a popular teacher and had young men to his house when he wife was away. When asked about allegations of things that happened in Minnesota, he said it was a very long time ago and he had changed. When allegations came forth at CLC, some leaders flew to Minnesota to investigate the previous incident and learned it was much more recent than he had disclosed. He claimed to be ministering to young men in late teens and early twenties at CLC. They were very loyal to him. I’ve been told he was a manipulator seeking to overthrow the corp. I’ve heard second hand accounts of at least three young men including a young groom but I had the impression it was extensive. It seems like someone on here said CLC had a “family meeting” in which he was supposed to exit gracefully for some benign reason. But, when he took the microphone, he started ripping up the pastors and Larry took the mic and told everyone it was a homosexual problem. At some point, that or another family meeting dissolved into a shouting match with the open microphone which is why CJ will never allow an open mic family meeting again. His victims as well as other sympathizers were devastated and confused and there was a church split with a few hundred leaving over it. Pastor Kline from Halpine Baptist, with whom CJ once lived, sided with Schmitt and took to the radio to denounce CLC. Years later, the elders of Halpine came to CLC to apologize to the congregation, feeling their church was disciplined for Kline’s decision to side with Schmitt.
The victims, who had been manipulated into compromising behavior, suffered from a great deal of shame by the stance CLC was taking regarding homosexuality. Feeling lost and rejected, they scattered, some entering into a very dark world. When they attended other area churches, the pastors received a letter warning they were divisive and not to welcome them in.
I’ve never heard restoration was an option, but I could be wrong.
I thought I had previously seen on the MD Case look up that there was a “nolle prosequi” for Larry Caffery but just looked and am not seeing it. If that was actually shown at one time and is now down then maybe it was taken down.
It looks like he has filed for divorce using that case look up site.
I was at the CLC family meeting with Charles Schmitt and I am fairly certain that homosexuality was never brought up. It would have been a lot more clear what was going on if the subject had been discussed.
Regarding the family meeting with Charles Schmitt – I only know of one, and he had a group of supporters with him. If you were facing the stage, they were on the right side of the auditorium. My recollection of the meeting is fuzzy, but I do remember it starting off very perfunctorily (wow, spell check did not tell me that was not a word…). But I also remember Larry T. becoming very emotional and getting louder and dramatic, saying that some inappropriate things with young men (maybe he only mentioned flirtation) had happened, and that they/we had been lied to by CS about his past. And Larry very dramatically and emotionally (and on the point of tears) pointed over at Schmitt as he was accusing him. I can’t remember if that’s when CS wanted to speak, or if Larry’s talking came after CS wanted to speak.
But the accusations were vague, and I don’t think the word “homosexual” was uttered. I do recall being left with a sense of having to decide with no real facts or accounts (just “he said he said”) whether or not he was being justly or unjustly banished from CLC (GOB at the time). So I think there was a hint of the flirting with men but the emphasis was probably on the lying about past behavior.
And it was at that meeting that I first learned that CS was not, in fact, one of the GOB leaders. And I was not the only one who learned that for the first time. It was all very confusing…
I have heard that Pastor Kline was later found to have had a long standing affair with a member of his church and later suffered some sort of a mental breakdown. Can any one say if this is true or not? I trusted the person who told me at the time, but I find myself much more cynical nowdays.
I don’t know what is true.
If flirting is asking a kid to perform oral sex on you in the car while giving you a ride…then whatever. Or being sexually involved with a young groom. Or sexually involved with married husbands and fathers. Or counseling grown victims of child sexual abuse by further abusing them. Or assaulting young men then convincing them of their homosexual identity. When his victims become predators and despise themselves for becoming “the man they hated most”. Remember, he was an older man and one considered to be a spiritual leader over them. Their “umbrella of protection” they were supposed to submit to. It was the ultimate spiritual abuse and Larry was right to angrily denounce him.
When CLC split a few years ago over SGM, CS claimed began he, too was a victim of SGM and tried to recruit people to his church.
Larry Tomczak posted on his Facebook page that today at 1 pm he is meeting with PJ Smyth, the new lead pastor of CLC.
I’m not sure what the significance of that is, but I suspect some kind of drama behind the scenes. I will be at CLC this morning and I wonder if he will be there at the meeting.
“Larry Tomczak posted on his Facebook page that today at 1 pm he is meeting with PJ Smyth, the new lead pastor of CLC.”
Well, we have Brent D writing about the horrible sexual abuse act(s) of Larry’s son, that Larry tried to cover up.
Then we have Todd Wilhelm’s detailed blog posts about PJ Smyth lying and trying to cover up his father’s brutal atrocities.
So maybe the two of them are meeting to encourage each other to come clean, get right with victims, be honest no matter what the cost?
Or maybe this is birds of a feather flocking? It would be nice to be wrong about the latter, but I won’t hold my breath.
“Brent D writing about the horrible sexual abuse act(s) of Larry’s son, that Larry tried to cover up.”
I missed that one. And can’t find it.
My odds are on Larry Tomczak joining PJ Smyth’s Advance denomination. Lesser odds on the discussion being about the Charles Schmitt situation. Maybe the lawsuit. Doubt they’ll be talking about Brent Detwiler.
“Larry Tomczak posted on his Facebook page that today at 1 pm he is meeting with PJ Smyth.”
I can’t find any reference to PJ on Larry’s site. Can you post the entire passage?
Glad everything is well, Kris & Guy!
This was on Larry Tomczak’s Facebook page:
“40th anniversary of first church we planted in our home, Covenant Life Church! Getting with new senior leader. So much has happened!”
He posted the time as 1 pm Sunday on one CLC member’s personal Facebook page.
Oh, just an anniversary celebration. That changes everything. There are no implications here.
oops I messed up on my formatting. Top paragraph is the quote from battered but unbroken. The remainder is what I wrote (indented part).
Interesting how Larry says “our home.” My understanding is that the first CLC (called Gathering of Believers) meeting was held at basement of the Patton’s house (the father of Bill Patton who was a pastor at the Philadelphia SGM for a long period of time).
You are correct, Steve. I’m not sure what Larry means when he says “our home”, but at the time this picture was taken, Larry’s “home” did not have a basement, which is where the picture was clearly taken. Furthermore, I have, as well, always heard it described as the home of the Pattons.
I was a member of Halpine and I never saw him give an apology. His wife had asked him if he was having an affair and he denied it. He was brought up before the members and admonished. He then went to a church in Frederick for a short time. His wife said she forgave him but she could not trust him.
i am looking at larry’s facebook page. where does he talk about visiting covenant life?
Minor detail but I think at the time Larry lived in Wheaton. and DID actually have a basement that he held some meetings in but the first church meeting was in the Patton’s basement and I am sure a larger size basement. Also, I think Steve Shank and his new wife lived in Larry’s basement for a period of time at this Wheaton location (this was well before Steve Shank helped “shank” Larry).
Where C.J. Mahaney lived initially they didn’t have basements and that may be what you are thinking about.
Patrick,
Larry never did actually visit CLC last Sunday as far as I could see. I heard he did meet with PJ Smyth somewhere else.
On his FB page he posted a picture of the first meeting of the church. His comment about meeting with the new leader was with the photo.
I thought Covenant Life had a private 40 year anniversary banquet a couple of months ago with nothing but people who had been there for 40 years.
Steve240, are you available to consult for investigative journalists about all things Sovereign Grace/Covenant Life, especially all things sexual abuse coverup? Journalists, especially investigative journalists and especially broadcast journalists, are very much phone oriented, especially in the initial stages of an investigation. Being overseas, I can’t consult on that basis. I have probably lost many opportunities for coverage because of this logistical issue. Your insider’s perspective would carry a lot of weight. CR
I ran into someone who was at CLC when I was there and is still there, and said they had a reunion of the old timers. Not sure if it was an anniversary celebration or not.
Cult- You may get information from Steve, but I’m not convinced you have a story about sex abuse. If Heather THompsons stories were discounted, the entire web comes apart. And, we are left with a babysitter that dreadfully harmed a child and pastors were less than conscious to help the family through that. You have the stepfather incident. He, too went to jail at the time. And that is what is known.
Steve 240 knows a lot but does not trust Josh Harris. I heard Josh intended to tell the congregation everything regardless of the consequences. Two prominent pastors told him they would leave if he told the congregation everything and josh eventually said, I will have to leave if I don’t tell him everything. And later he resigned. That separates him for the others.
Just saying – I disagree that if you remove the HT stories, the “entire web” comes apart. The point of the lawsuit was to address how the pastors coordinated to keep abuse cases quiet so as to protect themselves from bad publicity, and there are plenty of examples that are known: The stepfather incident, TWO babysitter incidents (Pam Palmer’s story is separate from the one that occurred in Virginia), the Nate Morales situation, and even the “Grace Goe” story are all valid stories and demonstrate the same pattern of coverup.
just saying said:
Interesting how you say that I don’t “trust Josh Harris.”
I am not sure if I would use those words. If the story you said is true and what prompted Harris to resign due to having to choose telling the congregation than I somewhat admire him. I guess what you are saying though is that rather than tell “the congregation everything” Josh resigned. Thus he still has something to share?
Harris also is the one that said Mahaney wasn’t disqualified at a CLC meeting despite all the sin and hypocrisy that came out about Mahaney (this was around the time SGM was relocating or had just relocated to Louisville). Harris doing this certainly makes me question and wonder about him.
Please realize that my major concern with Josh Harris is mostly over how he has handled his best selling book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” and from what I have seen to this day still pretty silent on all the problems IKDG has caused. For example he gave a talk a long time ago at CLC mentioning the problems that singles had relating with those of the opposite sex chose to never share this observation on his blog. If CLC had problems then I am sure there are plenty of other churches that have this same problem due their promoting the IKDG philosophy.
It was a shame that especially when IKDG was being so promoted that Harris chose to not admit the problems. Had Harris done this then maybe the approach could have been modified and the wisdom in it retained but the foolishness of it changed. His silence also IMO allowed people to apply his alternative approach in a legalistic way.
I imagine it was hard for Josh Harris to admit that the system that made him famous had so many issues and thus basically remained silent.
Recently Josh Harris has made some vague apologies but people seem to be almost reading into what he says.
This is my post about Harris remaining silent:
https://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/what-problems-joshua-harris-acknowledged-about-how-singles-relate-at-his-church-but-doesn%E2%80%99t-share-on-his-website/
Long before the amended lawsuit, long before the original lawsuit, long before anyone even suggested a lawsuit, the victims and their parents shared their testimonies on Kris and Jim’s sites. I compiled these testimonies and posted them on Rick Ross’ site. The testimonies revealed an undeniable pattern of coverup in different churches over a period of decades. In the process of sharing their testimonies, they discovered they were not the only ones and got in touch with one another. Then Pam Palmer rounded them all up in her living room and organized the lawsuit. The testimonies led to the lawsuit, not the other way around. Heather Thompson neither created nor discredited the situation.
Steve, I usually have only one shot at interesting investigative journalists in this story. If they can’t consult with someone on the phone immediately after they hear about the story, they put the story on the back burner. Sounds terribly unfair, but that’s the way they operate. CR
CR, bravo for posting those stories!
Cult Researcher
Not sure what I really have to offer. I only have knowledge of the group’s history vs. the alleged conspiracy.
Is there any more to say than the excellent articles that have come out already? Coverage in DC is about as good as you can get unless you are trying for some major national media.
“Is there any more to say than the excellent articles that have come out already? Coverage in DC is about as good as you can get unless you are trying for some major national media.”
None of the mainstream media have reported the PJ coverup, the Caffery case, or the Schmitt revelation. The only television network affiliate in the DC area to cover the lawsuit and the Morales trail was WJLA and they provided only victim soundbites and courthouse steps updates. Until the Washingtonian article, no one revealed the longstanding pattern of coverup in SGM. Washington Post religion report Michelle Boorstein kept asking me for names of people willing to talk about Harris’ involvement in the coverup. I said, “Never mind other people talking ABOUT him, how about you talk TO him. This cult is notorious for keeping extensive files on its members. He has a file on every sexual abuse reported to him. He knows the extent of the problem. Ask him how many cases? Ask him who knew what and when.” Instead, she did a report on Harris’ lame explanation for pastors wanting to keep investigations in house and about his lack of theological training. I haven’t been able to interest Washington Post crime reporter Dan Morse in the Caffery case, even when the restraining order expired. The New York Times reported on John Smyth, but not PJ Smyth.
“Not sure what I really have to offer.”
You can provide background information and explain the newsworthiness. That’s more than enough. Having a journalism background myself, and therefore understanding how journalists think, I can help you articulate the newsworthiness angles. Most importantly, you have a phone, which means they have a consultant on speed dial as their investigation develops.
It’s hard to discern the difference between conspiracy and SGM’s privacy policies I’m sure they thought they protected the victims by protecting their privacy.
CLC was always very private. Not only did we not hear who was molested, but we didn’t hear about births, deaths, hospitalizations, tragedies. They had a “those who need to find out will know” policy. They never talked about personal situations. Ever. Don’t want to be distracted from “the most important hour of the week” – the sermon. It was always very impersonal.
There is no doubt in my mind the Caffrey case went away because of the enormous violation of privacy when the blogs and then the church went public with the victim’s name. Even the media doesn’t do that. I assume the victim withdrew her charges because it takes decades for victims to speak publicly about these things.
I get that same impression with the Morales victims. The parents didn’t want to call the police. The pastors left that decision up to them. They didn’t make a big announcement to protect the victims.
However, the place was locked down like Fort Knox in the twenty five years to come. Nobody had access to children without witnesses and background checks and policies, etc. I think they honestly believed they successfully kept all children in the building safe. And, it appears they did.
Schmitt was in a different church for the last 30-40 years and his name and incident were never discussed at CLC and most people have never heard of him or knew he had ever attended.
I still can’t figure out why you’re going after CLC when none of the current pastors know anything about this. Go talk to the people at Fairfax. Most of the incidents seem to involve them. CLC had a stepfather and a babysitter, both prosecuted by police years ago. And Nate Morales, whose story became public recently, but some of his victims are happy, adult members at CLC today. And Caffrey, whose victim was unfortunately re-traumatized by being exposed. The other stories are highly questioned and the ramifications on those accused has been life-altering.
In the meantime, bring in the investigative reporters and let the men who were falsely accused finally be vindicated. Quotes from the allegations in the lawsuit are not evidence.
“the place was locked down like Fort Knox”
You think your children are safe because of whatever precautions you take during church services? During church services, the pedophiles are raising and clapping their hands during the music segment, bowing their head during prayer, checking scripture and saying “Amen!” during the sermon, and dropping a check in the plate during the offering. They aren’t trying to sneak into the children’s rooms downstairs. They’re upstairs convincing you they are just like you. After the service, they go out to a restaurant with your family and talk about spiritual things. They are roping you in so you will let them babysit or tutor your children or chaperon them on a camping trip or whatever. They do their dirty work when only they and their victim are in the room. A church service on church property is absolutely the last event and place a pedophile will target your children, precisely because it’s crawling with people and precisely because so many people are watching over the children. That is the opposite of their MO. All you’re doing by indulging in spin doctoring is setting yourself up for more bad publicity. And the pedophiles and the press will be glad to oblige you. There’s such a thing as being a glutton for punishment. And indeed, I have urged reporters to interview Terry Mayo and track down those 18 witnesses.
Stunned, if you want the false accusations to go away, convince Terry Mayo to submit to a press interview and offer yourself to be interviewed.
I get my user names mixed up. I meant to say, Just Saying, not Stunned. It’s 8 a.m. and I woke up at 2 a.m. after 4 hours of sleep. Sorry.
Cult Researcher-can we legally subpoena CLC Offices and arrive to get the files they have on us-without giving them prior notice to remove anything from the files?
Still In, I’m not an attorney, so I can’t answer that question. But if you can convince a judge that those files contain notes on criminal activity and that the pastors are withholding that information from the police, yeah, I suppose you can raid the offices. But like I said, only an attorney can provide you with a legal strategy. And the files might not be paper files. They might have been transcribed into electronic form and the paper versions shredded. The electronic versions might be encrypted or password protected. Only the police can tell you how successful a raid might be. Again, I’ve tried to convince investigative journalists to target these files through Deep Throats or whatever. But no takers. They want witnesses, not files, or they want to research legal files.
Just Saying…
You said, “CLC was always very private.” No as I recall. The meeting ages ago about Charles Schmitt was an example.
“Not only did we not hear who was molested, but we didn’t hear about births, deaths, hospitalizations, tragedies. They had a “those who need to find out will know” policy. They never talked about personal situations. Ever. ” When did you start attending? I remember it differently. Many public announcements of the sort you describe were made during a Sunday meeting, especially serious prayer requests; and in dire situations, we would have a separate public prayer meeting. But when what we prayed for conflicted with what eventually happened (i.e., few/no miracles, people did not recover, people died, etc.), the pastors shut down public prayer requests, and stopped announcing things at the meetings (there was a prayer meeting – attendance totally voluntary – before the main meetings, I think, but that was it. No public discussion about what happened at those meetings).
Yes, there was the “if you’re not part of the problem or the solution, you should not discuss” rule, and one could apply that to families dealing with the molestation of their children, but how convenient for the pastors and the reputation of the organization! The silence about molesters in the church means no one is going to pick up and leave (with their contributions) out of fear, the pastors will not face public criticism/scrutiny, and no one is going to sue.
It’s actually a very selfish rule, when you think about it, because it in no way takes into account future victims. Furthermore, it cloaks the leaders who are calling the shots and making the bad decisions, allowing them to continue making bad decisions. If they were truly humble, they would have called the police. Instead, they presumed to know more than the police, or anyone else who might disagree them, and counseled the parents of victims to not call the police. Why? To protect the victims, you say? Certainly not any future victims. And the parents of victims in the lawsuit wanted to call the police, so which victims do you think they were protecting?
I agree that the pastors appeared to have left the decision about reporting Nate Morales up to the parents, but did they encourage the parents to go to the police, offering complete support if they did? Did they talk about the potential for future victims if Nate went unreported? No one has come forward to say that they did…
And I agree with you that it is hard to discern between conspiracy and anything that might be called a privacy policy. But when a number of victims reported that they were actually discouraged from calling the police, whose privacy are we talking about? It sure looks like the pastors were the ones who wanted the privacy, and in doing so, at the very least, they gave the appearance of conspiracy.
As far as I can tell, CLC is legally still the same organization it was however many years ago, regardless of who leads it. That is why it is still a focus of attention. And isn’t Robin Boisvert still there? Or did he move to Virginia?
Experience has taught us that the only thing cult leaders truly fear is public exposure. Not subpeonas, arrests, or court cases. Not ex member testimony. Not cult watcher analysis. Not internal reviews. Not even sheeple disapproval. Not even peer pressure. Experience has taught them that they can weather all that. They can reinvent themselves. They can relocate. They can hire attorneys to complicate or drag out the legal process. They can convince their sheeple to accept their version or they can recruit new sheeple. CJ has done all this and survived and prospered. What they cannot survive is negative media attention. CJ didn’t pull out of the Together for the Gospel conference for 2 years because of the lawsuit. He pulled out because of all the press about the lawsuit. He didn’t return to the stage because the lawsuit was dismissed. He returned because the headlines subsided. Blogs are great. Talk shows are great. Underground magazines are great. But what they fear the most is the investigative reporter from the mainstream media outlet.
Robin is still at CLC.
I think ever since Schmitt happened and the radio waves in the DC area lit up with public debate about it, they stopped ever making information public. Ex-communicating people was unheard of at that time, and public opinion was that they should have had mercy. But, they didn’t.
They were doing what you all are demanding long before other churches considered it.
I’m all for ex-communicating predators. Where I draw the line is when the ex-communicated people for disagreeing with them over biblical things. And, THAT’S what Survivors is all about.
I’m not defending them. Sounds like they did discourage people from involving the police. People didn’t speak about pedophilia back in the day nor did the understand the prolific behavior of pedophiles. They certainly seem to have much regret to learn Morales preyed on many victims after CLC.
Cult – I don’t know how CLC could be any different than every single sports team, club, church, school, etc. What you’re saying is parents should never interact with other people in any situation because a predator might be there?
I don’t know what can be done to avoid it.
I never let my kids ever be alone with an adult. That was the best I could do. I hope they have never been victimized.
The people at CLC were amazing good people…most of them. The kids grew up in a nurturing environment. My guess would be about 3000 children passed through those halls into adulthood having never been physically abused in any way. Actually, they were the furthest from our minds.
The issue wasn’t abusers or predators. The damage involved:
1. Excessively honoring the royal families and their offspring for their Godly behavior to control.
2. Completely ignoring marginal people and their offspring.
3. Focus on recognizing leaders and excessively honoring leaders so everyone wants to be one. Rewarding leaders with dinners and things.
4. Congregation is always upwardly focused on leadership and not outward at all. Newcomers are ignored.
5. There are insider rules and behaviors that only insiders know.
6. Those who don’t follow the secret rules end up getting shamed.
7. Their kids get rejected.
That’s the biggest danger and probably consistent across the mega-church world.
That’s a very real and present danger. Predators? Not so much.
Just Saying,
A church is not like a sports team or a club or a school. A church is a spiritual community that has every spiritual resource at its disposal.
The Word, the Cross, the Holy Spirit, the Intercessor; the 5 fold ministry, spiritual armor, gifts and callings, the synergy of unity. Indeed, “every spiritual blessing.”
There is no excuse for not practicing discernment. Peter caught Annanias in a lie, Paul didn’t yield to false brethren for one hour, John called false converts a brood of vipers before they stepped into the water, Jesus told the Samaritan woman, “You have had 5 husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband.”
A great deal of space in the New Testament is devoted to recognizing and avoiding predators and counterfeits. The entire epistle of Jude is devoted to this subject.
The shepherds have been assigned to watch out for the sheep. Indeed, they have been warned that the wolves are coming. And sheep have been instructed to watch out for each other.
So if the best you can do is Nate Morales and if the best Larry Tomczak can do is Charles Schmitt (twice), then neither of you have anything to offer anyone.
From the way you’ve been carrying on, and from Tomczak’s track record, frankly, I think both of you are spiritually bankrupt.
On February 5, 2017, “just saying” commented on Thou Art the Man under the name “Crumbled.” The blog owner, Todd Wilhelm, contacted me and asked if I’d like to provide a response. I did. Wilhelm posted the response with his own introduction on Feb 14 in “Brent Detwiler’s Factual Rebuttal of Covenant Life Church Apologist.”
See https://thouarttheman.org/2017/02/14/brent-detwilers-factual-rebuttal-covenant-life-church-apologist/
I concluded my response with this paragraph. “Crumbled, I’d sure like to know who you are. That is the problem with an alias. You could be a sex abuser. You could be a CLC pastor. You could be anything in between. This much I know, you are not honest! Stop the propaganda!”
Just saying’s dishonesty and propaganda continues and was brought to my attention. That is why I am commenting now. She is a CLC plant, not a truthful source on the conspiracy to commit and cover up the sexual abuse of children by CLC pastors and members.
I see Charles Schmitt has be coming on this blog. I recently wrote, “Charles Schmitt’s 50 Plus Year History of Homosexual Sex with Young Men While Married & in Ministry.”
See http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/charles-schmitts-50-plus-year-history-of-homosexual-sex-with.html.
Here is an excerpt.
“Schmitt is an accomplished liar and pretender like all sexual predators whether the predation is criminal or not. Larry Tomczak and C.J. Mahaney should have done far more to stop him after he was excommunicated from Gathering of Believers (aka Covenant Life Church) in 1982. Instead they let him start Immanuel’s Church where his homosexual agenda deceitfully played out for the past 35 years. They knew of his on-going abuse at Immanuel’s Church but would not intervene. Tomczak even publicly “reconciled” with Schmitt in May 1998 and later spoke at the church.”
Calling “just saying” spiritually bankrupt is disgraceful. It is a classic cult technique to make horrible accusations to silence people you disagree with.
Hey Brent- there was a lot more to SGM problems than sex abuse cover up, and Just Saying is one of the many voices who keep reminding us that SGMsurvivors detailed a pattern of abusive and ungodly authoritarian leadership for a long time, before the subject of sex abuse cover up even arose. Back when you were on the A team doing your A thing to discipline people.
I happen to believe you that you were not part of the sex abuse cover ups and bungled counsel to victims and parents….I do not think you have lied about that. But I think you conveniently want to forget the list of things Just saying posted up above that characterized CLC (and all of SGM). Why? Because that culture of leader worship is one you helped created and foster for decades, and which you still after all this time have yet to repent and apologize for.
Be a man- apologize for this:
(This video was September 2004.)
Here is a quote from your link: “The division between SGM and CLC would never have happened if Joshua Harris and other pastors like Kenneth Maresco and Grant Layman had stood with me in August 2004 when I/we confronted Mahaney on life-long patterns of sin. Read Response Regarding Friendship & Doctrine, pp. 7-34.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rdo7eZCKE.
You deceived the people of CLC with this. What drove you to kiss CJs rear end so hard? In August 2004 you confronted CJ on life-long patterns of sin, and then in September 2004 you gave this speech? A month or so later? Where is your heart felt apology and admission of wrong?
Don’t come on here and rip Just Saying who is pointing out the many many problems at CLC and SGM that YOU, a founding apostle, share responsibility for. JS has every right to share their observations and opinions, right or wrong, without you smearing them. If you think JS was wrong about certain facts ( I read your link and maybe they are mistaken about some things, which I blame not on JS but on the culture of secrecy at CLC….people are not told all the facts) then correct the facts without smear. Remember that you, the alleged apostle, helped create that culture of secrecy. It would be nice to see an apology, but I won’t hold my breath.
Carry on Just Saying, I am sure many of us here appreciate your imput. I certainly do.
I probably am spiritually bankrupt. I don’t have any idea what is true anymore spiritually.
I will be honest, I don’t know what is true with CLC either. Like everyone else, I’m trying to piece together truth and lies to try to figure out who is genuine and who is not. And, I don’t really know. I could have it wrong and that scares me a lot. I know there are a large number of people who have landed about the same place I have landed. And, if there are true child sexual abuse victims who have been discredited by the false accusations, I think that is a terrible travesty. I encourage everyone to just tell the truth because there are new victims now. The men who were accused in this lawsuit look like they are 100 years old now. It took their lives away forever.
Really my only beef with Cult is wondering how SGM managed to slip out the back door and escape and leave Mark Mitchell at CLC having to answer for all of this.
Go to Louisville and interview people.
” Like everyone else, I’m trying to piece together truth and lies to try to figure out who is genuine and who is not. And, I don’t really know. I could have it wrong and that scares me a lot.”
HERE is the truth. NONE OF US HUMANS will ever know the whole truth; victims, perpertrators, observers, bloggers and commenters. WE DO NOT KNOW even the full truth about our hearts; how can we expect to know the truth about other people’s hearts.
Sadly, it’s a fools game to think that you can ever, ever sort out the whole truth of SGM members, community or leaders. It just won’t happen.
Time rolls on; people die, retire, move on and SGM, ultimately, is yesterday’s news.
Personally, I find I have to leave these things to God – who knows perfectly and justly.
ADDENDUM: Many people say we have to pursue these things to make sure they never happen again ignoring the first law of history: HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF, over and over and over.
The one thing we learn from history; we DON’T learn from history.
As for the effectiveness of blogs; one of the early discernment blogs was an ongoing critical assessment of Steve Gaines; the pastor who took over Adrian Roger’s church. Thousands of words were written about Gaines.
ULTIMATELY, the blog no longer exists and Steve Gaines is President of the SBC.
As for Brent, years ago he released his thoughts/feelings and self-justifying observations on all that is Maheny. Before he closed off comments, I warned him that he was making a mistake. Brent has become, of course, like the last man in the 2017 draft – “Mr. Irrelevant.” Can you imagine a church that would draft him? I really can’t. No church wants to hire an angry, bitter pastor mired in the swamp of past abuses; real or imagined.
We, like Brent, will choose; be mired in the swamp of the past or move on towards the future.
[ Call me an Ice cold-blooded realist ]
Dear Ice Cold Realist ;),
There is nothing new under the sun, true. But I, also, believe the old adage that if we don’t learn from history, we are bound to repeat it. We can’t control whether others learn from it, but we can do much to help bring healing to ourselves and others. And walk into the light of truth. Oh yeah, the best old saying, “He is the way, the truth and the life.”
Whether this world changes or not, let’s continue looking to the Truth. That’s where we’ll find Him.
“I don’t have any idea what is true anymore spiritually.”
You have a really bad shepherd. PJ is too busy being a dude and too busy building his denomination to offer meaningful spiritual guidance to his sheep. Before that, you had Josh posting a Kermit the Frog cartoon on his blog and lusting after a Lego set. Before that, you had CJ, whom I heard speak many times and whom I can attest has never had an original spiritual thought in his entire ministry. And who was holding CJ accountable? Larry, who to this day calls Bob Weiner his “good friend,” who partnered with Weiner’s right hand man Rice Broocks, and who abandoned his apostolic calling to become a “cultural commentator.” And who was holding CJ and Larry accountable? Brent, who has all the right rhetoric but whose personal life even someone born again yesterday can recognize is not something they want to imitate. Along the way, you had Charles Schmitt, who is a lifelong sexual predator, mentoring CJ and Larry.
“Go to Louisville and interview people.”
Tiffany Stanley made a perfunctory visit to Louisville and reported being turned away at the door. She also wrote to over a dozen SGM leaders. Hardly what I would call kicking doors down. Pam Palmer went to Louisville and her visit was reported in the Daily Beast and the religious press. Apparently this had some effect. CJ was not on stage at the 2017 Together for the Gospel. This was followed by the editor of the Gospel Coalition writing an essay about “Broken Wolves” and calling The Wartburg Watch a “lying, slandering, hateful” blog. Apparently CJ’s buddies are feeling the heat. There’s an investigative journalism non-profit in Louisville, but I couldn’t get the director interested in digging up any proof about CJ. I myself am considering writing to Christian radio stations that air “Grace to You” to ask them, “What is it about CHILDREN BEING SERIAL RAPED that doesn’t bother John MacArthur?”
Drew, you have offered us nothing but coffee shop wisdom.
Cult –
I could be wrong. And, if I’m wrong, I pray the accused would simply confess to end this. And, if it’s the other way, I pray any false accusers would simply confess. Because it’s the right thing to do.
But, at this moment where I stand, without anyone feeding me any secret information or being any kind of insider or whatever, I’m not convinced any children were being serial raped. I have no problem dropping any of my kids off there tomorrow.
Back in the 1980’s, we sat and watched on the news as child protective services line up 200 children and remove them from their families for being affiliated with a church. We were bombarded with images all over the country of Christians losing their children to the government for homeschooling. People were terrified of government authorities and viewed them as the enemy of our free practice of religion. I think everyone was afraid to involve the authorities in anything or all of us were endangered. Now, homeschoolers get free rides to college and can openly brag they are homeschooled, but people were afraid back then. I remember pastors reassuring neurotic members that Maryland was fairly homeschool friendly, but literature from homeschool organizations like HSLDA still terrified everyone. Is that why they handled things in house? Maybe? Did they view this as a sin problem or a family problem? Maybe? Was our society in general prosecuting family members who abused their children? Not very often. I think even society thought they just needed parenting classes or counseling or something. Society was not into putting children through trials prosecuting their family. Was in wrong in hindsight? Probably yes. Because there are monsters like Morales and none of us knew that.
We were all shocked to read Amended Lawsuit. I’m pretty sure everyone was physically sick for months over that. All of us wanted to run screaming with torches and set the accused homes on fire. Yes. We all felt that.
But, do we really think people in masks were gang-raping children at Celebration? We want to give the victims the benefit of the doubt because it’s so important for them to be heard. But, what if there is a possibility it didn’t happen?
Drew – Are we just going to chalk that up to the Sovereignty of God and let those men die in shame? It’s none of our business?
The investigation at CLC concluded the two cases outside of Nathan Morales were prosecuted at the time they occurred and they found no other collaboration to any of the other allegations. And the congregation should view the accused as fully restored. I am not aware of any CLC members who left over that. So, I can assume that is the predominant view of that.
Cult – SGM and CLC are not one in the same. CLC became estranged from SGM the moment Josh Harris called CJ out at that first family meeting and escorted him to the door.
Mark Mitchell’s family are very close friends to both Palmer families. He’s not the problem here. He is one of the straightest, most analytical benign people in this whole story. If you wanted a pastor that’s not apart of this problem, he’s the one. He shouldn’t be having to answer for all of this. The SGM leaders left this mess in his lap. He was never royalty. He never acted like royalty. Nobody should be pointing fingers in his direction.
It seems like investigative journalism is about finding the truth. I would think you could write books and books about the sexual abuse that occurred in UK and Africa widespread in boarding schools. Why keep knocking on this door?
“Drew, you have offered us nothing but coffee shop wisdom.”
You can take CR out of Bob Weiner’s Maranatha, but can you get Maranatha’s arrogant superiority out of CR???
“Drew – Are we just going to chalk that up to the Sovereignty of God and let those men die in shame? It’s none of our business?”
As I read his posts, the main takeaway I get is that we just don’t know for sure, and never will unless one side admits to lying. One side has to be lying. And we can’t do anything about it. So yes, we do need to just chalk it all up to God allowing this to happen.
You know, those men stood by and said nothing, in order to keep their jobs, when all sorts of people were lied about in PDI/SGM. How many people just at CLC were lied about, not to mention all the degifted pastors who were occasionally smeared? Is it possible God wants them to know exactly how it feels to be falsely accused? Of course accusations of pedophila are far worse than accusations of pride and rebellion or whatever crap they put on anybody who dared to disagree…but frankly I wonder if you are wasting your sympathy.
For my own sins: I would like to be judged with mercy.
For other people’s sins; I should probably offer them the same grace that I would like.
5yearsinPDI, wade through all this coffee shop wisdom and show me one scripture.
“HERE is the truth. NONE OF US HUMANS will ever know the whole truth; victims, perpertrators, observers, bloggers and commenters. WE DO NOT KNOW even the full truth about our hearts; how can we expect to know the truth about other people’s hearts. Sadly, it’s a fools game to think that you can ever, ever sort out the whole truth of SGM members, community or leaders. It just won’t happen. Time rolls on; people die, retire, move on and SGM, ultimately, is yesterday’s news. Many people say we have to pursue these things to make sure they never happen again ignoring the first law of history: HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF, over and over and over. The one thing we learn from history; we DON’T learn from history. As for the effectiveness of blogs; one of the early discernment blogs was an ongoing critical assessment of Steve Gaines; the pastor who took over Adrian Roger’s church. Thousands of words were written about Gaines. ULTIMATELY, the blog no longer exists and Steve Gaines is President of the SBC. As for Brent, years ago he released his thoughts/feelings and self-justifying observations on all that is Maheny. Before he closed off comments, I warned him that he was making a mistake. Brent has become, of course, like the last man in the 2017 draft – “Mr. Irrelevant.” Can you imagine a church that would draft him? I really can’t. No church wants to hire an angry, bitter pastor mired in the swamp of past abuses; real or imagined. We, like Brent, will choose; be mired in the swamp of the past or move on towards the future. [ Call me an Ice cold-blooded realist ] Personally, I find I have to leave these things to God – who knows perfectly and justly.”
Just Saying offers you spin doctoring. 5 Years in PDI offers you psychobabble. Drew offers you coffee shop wisdom. Brent offers you self righteous ranting.
I offer you hope from the scripture. God can fix this. All of this.
Mark is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Mark’s response to the Washingtonian’s timing was to attribute it to the devil. Only 2 months later, Larry Caffery was arrested. Mark didn’t attribute the timing of Caffery’s arrest to Mark’s carnal thinking. Mark caught PJ red handed covering up PJ’s father’s abuse and engaged in a coverup of a coverup. Mark has not made any gestures of reconciliation with the sexual abuse coverup victims. Mark has not revised CLC’s policy on pedophile. Mark has not seen fit to renounce and end classic cult practices like keeping detailed records on members. Mark ignored Kermit the Frog. Mark is clueless about Brent’s continued influence on the congregation and the leadership team. Mark has not foreseen the baggage issue that will eventually come back to haunt him if PJ brings CLC into Advance.
CR..you didn’t put one scripture in your last post…I guess that means it is coffee shop wisdom…
Come on 5Years, you are better than that. You can see what CR meant. You don’t have to quote scripture for there to be a scriptural basis for something. But my complaint about Drew would be that much of his statement is a rather fatalistic and pessimistic take on things: “None of us…will ever know the whole truth,” and so on, may be true statements, but that doesn’t mean we can’t know more – a lot more. And it shouldn’t be a call to quit.
For what it’s worth, the kind of things Drew stated were the kinds of things I’d hear from the pastors when I would ask follow up questions about their answers to my questions.
Out there, Drew should be free to post his thoughts about CLC without getting demeaning cracks in return.
Those of you who are optimistic will be praying for God to move and that is fine. People who are pessimistic look at CLC’s response to PJs falsehoods ( he forgot? really?) and think the Titanic has hit the iceberg and its over. That’s fine too. This is a blog with lots of opinions.
Every Christian who posts here is trying to do so out of a Christian worldview and Christian concepts, even if they don’t quote bible verses. It doesn’t make it a coffee shop Oprah style mentality, or psychobabble, or anything else. It just makes it a whole lot of people with a lot of different views about the events. That needs to be OK.
We don’t need to be CR’s obedient followers. I for one think he is rather pushy. But that’s OK too, we don’t know what SGM people may stumble across this blog one day and read it, and what will help them. Probably different people are helped by very different facets of the various SGM discussions. And to refer back to Just saying’s posts, the vast majority may be helped more by commentary on authoritarian abuse than by any sexual abuse subjects, which thank God appear to be a minority.
History repeats itself because the passions of man never change.
Mark Mark,
I am very sorry to learn about what Charles has done to you and to countless others. Charles “resigned” back in November but he is still around the church every week. The leadership of the church cannot be trusted to remove him. I have no reason to believe that this pattern of abuse is going to come an end unless somebody stands up and does something about it. I know one of his recent victims and I would like to try to seek justice for the rest of the victims and make sure that this never happens again. Can you (or anyone who has information about CS) please contact me at immanuelstruth@gmail.com.
I think we can all agree with this from Mark Mark’s post from last month
“Immanuel’s Church should not survive … the doors should close … it is not a Sanctuary nor place of God.
Immanuel’s must immediately remove Charles Schmitt and Dotty Schmitt and the entire complicit Schmitt family (remove the limbs lest the body die) from any and all leadership positions and bar them from the property and all future contact or involvement with Immanuel’s Church.
Immanuel’s Church has experienced sexual scandals with senior membership, suicide in the Church building, financial misconduct by senior leadership, as well as many others signs from God that something is very wrong there (these are just the things I know about but I am sure there are others which never made it public).
Perhaps it’s time we listen to God and close this place down for Good … for God … and for the good of the Body … once and for all time.”
Somewhereintime says:
May 2, 2017 at 6:00 pm
History repeats itself because the passions of man never change.
[ Exactly – Theoretically at least, we’d like to drain the swamp; but we can’t; we’re actually a part of that d**ned swamp.]
Mark Mark, the best way to expose Schmitt is an article in the Washington Post. Try investigative reporter John Sullivan. He’s been looking into the SGM/CLC sexual abuse coverup and the PJ/John Smyth coverup. I’ve briefed him on the Schmitt coverup. R.T., pass this on to the Schmitt victim you know. CR
Cult Researcher, I actually met with a reporter from the Washington Post yesterday. I am now trying to find victims who would be willing to speak with her. It would be 100% anonymous.
“If you, O Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, WHO could stand? [ none of us ] But with you there is forgiveness, that you may be feared.” Ps 130:3-4
When I hear about pedophiles I want to grab a baseball bat and start swinging. Or maybe start chopping off middle body parts. It makes my blood boil when it is little kids. I am sure that I only feel a faint reflection of the pure wrath of God against sin.
I have to remind myself that I also deserve to burn in hell forever. And you don’t know what happened to these people as children. They were probably cruelly molested and grew up to become molesters themselves. If we had been through their childhood, apart from the grace of God we might do the same perverted horrible stuff.
But forgiveness and humility do not detract from justice and protecting others in the future. Without any feelings of superiority or self righteousness we need to remove these guys from their positions and if at all possible send them to jail for a very very long time.
The only way to remove these guys from their positions is to expose them. If they keep handling these issues within their churches (especially when their family runs the church) they will never be removed and this abuse will continue. Charles has a website advertising that he is mentoring “young adults” and that website was created in March of 2017 which was long after he was caught for his most recent “indiscretion” if the only people who know about his history are people in the church who are continuing to protect him he cannot and will not be stopped. I can help put an end to this abuse if anyone who has been a victim of Charles would be willing to come forward. It just takes one person and the rest will follow. Please, if you have any information that will help email me at immanuelstruth@gmail.com. Your identity will be kept anonymous.
I agree that removing the abusive people is needed, but it should go hand-in-hand with removing the church policies that allowed for things to stay hidden in the first place, otherwise new abusers will pop up in place of the old ones. This is why CLC remains a focus of commentary – regardless of the change in leadership, these same basic policies, including and especially privacy policies, protect abusers of all types and allow for them to remain hidden for a long time.
R.T. said:
Welcome back and thanks for the updates.
A little while back I looked at a video of their Sunday service. It looked like a lot of empty seats. Is that going on? People are starting to not attend.
If the Schmitt family isn’t removed from the church (and reasonably soon) then I imagine the only way something is going to happen is for the church attendance to significantly decrease and the associated giving also decrease. If/when they have to start laying off more staff and have a harder time paying bills then maybe people will wake up. If not, maybe the church will have to close due to financial issues.
Do you know if the church still owes money on its church building?
It certainly baffles me how Schmitt has been able to get away with what he has done for so many years. He apparently has the “Teflon” like abilities that Reagon, Clinton and possibly even Mahaney seemed to have.
RT
PERSONAL MENTORING PROGRAM with Schmitt? How in the world could that even happen? Is that on the church website? Please post a link.
How on earth could the church condone this?
PLEASE don’t let Schmitt personally mentor any more young men desiring to go into ministry.
CR,
You said this,”You have a really bad shepherd. PJ is too busy being a dude and too busy building his denomination to offer meaningful spiritual guidance to his sheep.” Whatever your opinion on PJ, we will all be dealing with him and his very public persona for the forseeable future. Anyone who Googles his name will find much negative information, but none of that has stopped his growing popularity.
PJ Smyth has only been preaching full time at CLC since January, but already there has been a dramatic financial turnaround. 10% more people are giving than before. The total giving is up on average around 20%, but some weeks it has been up 40%. Over $545,000 was collected in April alone, which is $120,000 or 28% over budget. This is according to numbers emailed to members or stated from the pulpit on Sunday.
PJ is quite a force to be reckoned with. He is a master at swaying the congregation’s emotions and persuading them to his point of view. He has won over the hearts of many, many people of CLC already. When he walks through a crowd at church, he keeps getting a stream of high fives and affectionate back slaps. He keeps the congregation’s attention during sermons like no other preacher. He gets away with Driscollesque remarks and controversial teachings because he has already endeared himself to the congregation. He has convinced members and leaders at CLC to host the main international conference for Advance, his denomination. I could go on and on with examples, but many people are already fiercely loyal to PJ Smyth and are gaining a new, powerfully optimistic vision of CLC’s future.
This story won’t fizzle out in some hidden corner. It will either end really well with enormous growth and influence or really badly with a very destructive explosion!
Bought- fascinating post.
On this other subject, do people at Schmitts church think the allegations are false? Or do they think it is true and he has repented?
I can’t picture decent Christians not caring that their pastor has been having homosexual relations repeatedly.
Is it a cult, where you feel like people are brainwashed zombies? Why do they still go there?
Bought the Field, that sounds chilling to me.