Hey there
September 11, 2017 in Sovereign Grace Ministries, Sovgracemin
Guy here –
I’ll bet you thought I was dead and buried, didn’t you :). Nope. Just creating a new post because the comments are getting too large.
Hope everyone is doing well. Perhaps we can all play catch up soon?
© 2017 – 2018, Kris. All rights reserved.
LancasterCaster, even before I read your latest post, I began to feel really badly about being so pushy. I’m really sorry. I’m not always that way, but it came out on you, so for that I do apologize. I shouldn’t have.
And give your wife my props! Our communities need good teachers and good kids who will lead our futures. Thank her for me.
Best,
Stunned
Former CLCer–Pastors at CovLife take a sabbatical after a certain amount of time. Mark Mitchell is back from his, as is Greg Sommerville.
Interesting that CLC can afford to send pastors on sabtticals with all the financial problems I am hearing CLC has. Few private companies do this for their employees.
For years, I’ve appealed to 5yearsinPDI to please contact me in keeping with the teaching of Scripture. She has always refused. The offer remains.
5yearsinPDI does not know me. We have never talked or met in the past. She was never in a church I led or oversaw. She did not sit under my teaching or observe my pastoral involvement with people. She has no personal knowledge of me or experience with me. I am not the person she makes me out to be.
Over the years, I have graciously, thoughtfully, and occasionally responded to her unfounded attacks. This has made no positive difference. She only despises me more and continues to make the same slanderous accusations, or use the same slanderous illustrations, I have addressed in the past.
Here are a few illustrations that highlight my concerns for her.
C.J. IS A SERVANT OF SATAN
Was C.J. Mahaney a servant of Satan and likely unsaved in the 1990’s? That is the conclusion of 5yearsinPDI.
5yearsinPDI
August 14th, 2013 at 9:42 am
“I came to the personal conclusion in the late 90s that CJ was a false apostle. … I wondered a lot about the other “apostles.” I was never able to come to that same conclusion about Dave, or Brent… In Paul’s writings, a false apostle appears not to be saved, he is a servant of satan. I got to that place regarding CJ, looking at scripture about false apostles. But I could never conclude that about the rest of them.”
I had growing concerns for C.J. in the late 1990’s but he was not a servant of Satan. This kind of extreme statement is typical of 5yearsinPDI.
PURE SCUM – NO ACCOUNTABILITY FOR WRITINGS
5yearsinPDI has frequently said I don’t allow people to provide input on what I have written. The opposite is true. Here are a couple examples.
5yearsinPDI
November 3, 2014 at 1:41 pm
“’I have always written openly and therefore with accountability.’ [Brent Detwiler]
“Until you allow public comments and responses on your blog, there is no true accountability. In blogland, people who post hard hitting pieces against others allow for rebuttals underneath the post or lose credibility. Actually I assume when you post emails they are all true and not fabricated, and the same for records of meetings and conversations. But the fact remains that nobody can question or adjust anything on your website, you allow no responses at all. And that means no- or very little- accountability.”
5yearsinPDI
November 4, 2014 at 12:50 pm
“Well Brent if you do figure out my identity and write up something nasty about me on your blog, let me help. What you did was scum. Pure scum. There, now you can post that I called you scum, and nobody can respond on your blog with any clarifications or rebuttals. Very handy for you.”
I first started posting articles about C.J. and Sovereign Grace Ministries on my Facebook page in July 2011. That allowed for interaction. The following month, I started my blog at BrentDetwiler.com where I also allowed for comments. I quickly observed, however, that some people were using aliases to post false and slanderous information with ungodly attitudes.
At that point, I turned off the comments but directed people to my Facebook page where they could comment but had to use a real name. I think that has made a big difference. People are much more responsible for their words and attitudes when they cannot hide behind a pseudonym.
I have always welcomed “accountability.” That is why I have linked all my posts on my Facebook page for over six years and allowed for thousands of public comments, responses, clarifications and rebuttals. That is a matter of fact.
Nevertheless, 5yearsinPDI says, “Until you allow public comments and responses on your blog, there is no true accountability. … Pure scum. There, now you can post that I called you scum, and nobody can respond on your blog with any clarifications or rebuttals. Very handy for you.” This statement, like so many others, is completely untrue.
5yearsinPDI has called me many hateful things over the years. “Pure scum” is just one of them.
USING VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ABUSE AS A VINDICTIVE WEAPON AGAINST C.J.
5yearsinPDI has often disparaged my motives in advocating for the victims of sexual abuse in Covenant Life Church and Sovereign Grace Ministries. A couple examples.
5yearsinPDI
August 13, 2013 at 6:11 pm
“I wish I could believe Brent actually cares about the plaintiffs, and isn’t just using the lawsuit as one more weapon in his arsenal against CJ. … And frankly I think this lawsuit is a very convenient tool for him in his quest.”
5yearsinPDI says:
March 29, 2015 at 3:33 pm
“I also think you have a vendetta against CJ and his cronies and will stop at nothing to get back at them, even if it means exposing sex abuse victims. Try hard to stop it. Let the cops deal with it.”
Of course, it is painful to read to these comments. I deeply care about the plaintiffs (victims) and been motivated to expose the conspiracy to commit and coverup the sexual abuse of children because it is evil! It has nothing to do with revenge or vengeance. It has to do with justice and the well-being of children. That is why I have exposed predators and conspirators like C.J.
5yearsinPDI claims, “I will stop at nothing to get back at them, even if it means exposing sex abuse victims.” The fact is I have never used a victim’s name unless the victim or family has granted me permission or the name has been used in public by the victim or family.
Truth be told, I know scores of victims in CLC and SGM whom I have never identified because they don’t want to go public or prosecute in a criminal court. I wish that were not the case but I have honored their requests. I have, however, provided their information to law enforcement but District Attorney’s Offices almost never prosecute unless the victim is cooperative.
5yearsinPDI
November 4, 2014 at 11:34 pm
“I remember when Brent outed the plaintiff G Goe [Grace Goe] by real name. I was sickened. There is something pathological there, to out a sex abuse victim who has chosen to be anonymous, unless you can write that you were granted permission to divulge their identity.”
I had been caring for and counseling Olivia Llewellyn-Graham for months and she asked me to tell her story of abuse using her name because she did not have the strength to go public on her own. Later, she feared for my well-being given the response of people on SGMSurvivors. I share these emails for the sake of the truth, not to boast.
From: Brent Detwiler [mailto:abrentdetwiler@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 7:35 AM
To: Olivia [Llewellyn] Graham
Subject: RE: CJ- for your peace of mind
“You were only 12 years old and experiencing all kinds of abuse. You were very brave to meet with the [CLC] pastors and tell them what was happening in your home. It’s amazing you remember as much as you do but I am glad my post jogged your memory regarding C.J. That is a helpful piece of evidence and it also confirms C.J.’s involvement. Thanks for the “peace of mind.”
“People are faulting me for “outing” you. That’s fine. Please be fully assured I will not tell anyone (except XXXXX) I had permission to write the blog. I’d much rather take some heat than put you in harm’s way.
“People can say and think whatever they want about me. What’s important is your story. It is out now and hopefully that will bring about some justice.
“A lot of people are now in a position where they have to give an account. They may continue to lie and hide but it will only work against them.
“Grace to you. Brent.”
From: Olivia Graham
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 8:12 AM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: Re: CJ- for your peace of mind
“I am sorry for that. Give me a little time to muster the courage and I will let it be known, which means, to my siblings, that it was my choice. It will make me alone forever. Sorry I am having a hard time right now. You are like Christ to bear it for me right now. I haven’t known such goodness ever in my life.”
Olivia did make known that she asked me to tell her story on my blog. You can read “The Conspiracy Surrounding Plaintiff Grace Goe at Covenant Life Church” (June 4, 2013) at http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/the-conspiracy-surrounding-plaintiff-grace-goe-at-covenant-l.html.
RES ISPA “GOT SLAMMED” BY ME
Not exactly – LOL.
5yearsinPDI says:
August 7, 2017 at 9:02 pm
“It is sad to read Kim/Res Ipsa saying Brent’s leadership was one of fear, control and legalism.”
That is not what Kim said. 5yearsinPDI is misquoting and quoting out of context. She does this often. Here is what Kim said in context.
“First and foremost, my post on Survivors was never intended to be about any way that you have sinned against me as a result of any personal interaction we have had. I appreciate that you are concerned about that but it was not my point at all. … I do not feel like you have sinned against me in any direct manner – you haven’t treated me badly or wronged me on an individual level…. In my opinion, you and the other leaders at CrossWay developed and promoted an atmosphere of control, legalism and fear.”
Kim was part of the church planting team to Charlotte in 1991. She worked for me as my personal assistant in 1993 and 1994. We were good friends and got along well. During 11 years of interaction she never thought I sinned against her. She had concerns for the church and held me partly responsible but they were never based on anything she experienced in her relationship with me. You would never come to that conclusion based upon a reading of 5yearsinPDI.
Unfortunately, Kim left the church in 2003 after a conflict with her Care Group leader. Jim Hawkins was her pastor and tried to help. He was respected as a pastor for his kindness, gentleness, and wisdom.
From: Jim Hawkins
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 7:25 PM
To: Kim G.
Subject: Follow Up
“Hello Kim,
“Thanks, again, for meeting with me and Brent several weeks ago. I realize this is a challenging time as you work through where God is leading you – I hope your church search is going well. Let us know if we can help you in any way on this or anything else.
“I wanted to follow up with you on one aspect of our meeting together. It was apparent that your conversations with Tim [Care Group leader] back in May were significant in finalizing your decision to leave the church. So after our meeting, I asked Tim to review with me these conversations out of concern for how you were treated. I’ve discovered that yours and Tim’s (& Ricki’s) [Tim’s wife] recollections of your discussions have some important differences. I’m concerned you have mischaracterized what Tim was trying to convey during those times and could then be tempted to offense and speaking wrongly of Tim and the way he represented the church. In order to clear this up, I feel it would be beneficial for the three of us to get together to resolve these differences. Would you be available to do this? Let me know and thanks for considering this.”
Kim refused to meet with Jim and Tim.
From: Jim Hawkins
Sent: Thu 8/1/2002 11:24 AM
To: Kimberly G.
Subject: RE: Follow Up
“Thanks for getting back to me on this. Thanks also for holding Tim & Ricki in high esteem as you convey to others your decision to leave the church.
“I’m sorry you don’t feel clearing up some misunderstandings would be beneficial. We (including Tim) just don’t want you to leave feeling ungraciously treated or confused by Tim’s experience with the church’s doctrine of sin.
“If there is any other way we can help you through this season of church hunting, let us know. And DON’T be a stranger – we’d love to stay in touch on how you are doing!”
What Kim, 5yearsinPDI, and others wrote incited two people to advocate violence against me (one has humbly & sincerely asked my forgiveness). As a result, I had to write a response to Kim, etc. Here is what 5yearsinPDI said about my response (post) just a week ago.
5yearsinPDI says:
October 6, 2017 at 11:04 am
“Additionally, when Res Ipsa/Kim wrote about the climate of legalism, fear, and control under his pastoral leadership, she just got slammed by him.”
The hypocrisy is breathtaking. I was the one being “slammed.” The attacks were vicious and plenteous. I provided an honest but gracious response to Kim even though she made up a false narrative about me that was libelous. You can read it here in entirety. http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/res-ipsa.html
Here are the opening paragraphs to give you a feel for my approach.
Res Ipsa
Saturday, January 21, 2012 at 5:18 PM
Brent Detwiler
“Res Ipsa comes from the Latin, res ipsa loquitur, which mean “the thing speaks for itself.” It’s a legal term and the name by which a lawyer who was a friend posts on SGM Survivors. Her real name is Kim. I’ve always liked her and respected her. She was my secretary back in the early 90’s before she pursued her law degree. She left the church in 2002. I was not intimately involved in the circumstances regarding her decision. I do remember being heartbroken.
“Last August, I asked Kim if she could meet and help answer some legal questions. She graciously set aside time before work and her advice was helpful. Kim and I have always gotten along. I was unaware of her grievances until I read about them on the internet three weeks ago. Honestly, I was hurt by the blindside and troubled by the content given our past friendship. …”
5yearsinPDI says, “She just got slammed by him.” That is simply not true but this kind of malice abounds in her statements about me.
FRIENDLY FIRE
Friendly Fire was a senior pastor in Sovereign Grace Ministries in the 1980’s. He was asked to step down for his legalism, arrogance, and heavy-handedness. He rejected the appeals of all his friends who were trying to help him repent. Five years ago, he wrote about me on this blog.
5yearsinPDI has endlessly (a little hyperbole) brought up his rendition.
5yearsinPDI says:
September 30, 2017 at 5:03 pm
“And while we are at it…..
“Remember Friendly Fire’s story? The pastor who Brent kicked out to put Connelly [Mickey Connolly] in? (sp?) I am sure most folks reading here read it, but you can find it and more at: https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?14,113601,page=3
“scroll down about 1/3 of the page until you see the Friendly Fire header. Don’t miss it. If you want to understand SGM Apostolic authority, this is it, the best possible post you can read.
“I remember Brent posting a response but I can’t find it on a quick search and I don’t want to put time into it. Maybe somebody else can find it.
“Brent’s response was essentially the same as this Eric dude at Cripplegate…..FF was wrong and there is another side but I can’t tell you any actual facts about it, but believe me that FF isn’t telling you the whole truth even if I can’t give one single concrete reason, just believe me and FF isn’t honest. Etc.
“But that’s Ok for Brent, but not OK for Eric?”
Here is one my responses to 5yearsinPDI from 2013.
Brent Detwiler
August 11th, 2013 at 3:02 pm
“5yearsinPDI. You are quite mistaken in your assertions. First, it was necessary to remove Mr. Wood [Friendly Fire]. That unanimous decision was made in 1989 by all the leaders in the church who were also his closest friends. It likewise had the widespread support of the church. I could easily post 100 pages of notes but that is not necessary. I must be honest, I wonder if you are a family member or close friend of the family who carries offenses. In any case, please email me so we can set up a time to talk. I am glad to interact with you.”
5yearsinPDI responded with this question.
5yearsinPDI
August 11th, 2013 at 8:57 pm
“Did you really say this though? ‘One highlight I [Friendly Fire] remember, after being labeled as a “proud” man, Brent Detwiler stood before my church and told them that the sin of pride was worse than the sin of adultery (I wanted to melt into the floor).’
“If you did, what a crock of sh!t. I am a wife and I’d sure rather hubby fell into pride than into another woman’s bed. Here is your chance to say “sorry”. We all make mistakes.”
Of course, I never said anything about his pride being worse than the sin of adultery. That was a bizarre, baseless, and sensational assertion.
Brent Detwiler
August 12th, 2013 at 7:15 am
“5yearsinPDI. You asked: “Did you really say this though?” … No, I did not say this or anything resembling this!”
Friendly Fire was the most legalistic and domineering pastor in SGM. Everyone agreed he was not fit for the ministry. I did not “kick him out to put Connolly in.” I could write about Friendly Fire at length but have refrained from doing so as a kindness. If 5yearsinPDI knew the facts she would commend me and others for removing someone who really did promote an atmosphere of fear, control and legalism.
BEATING “THE CR@P OUT OF YOUR TWO-YEAR OLD FORTY TIMES A DAY”
Just recently 5yearsinPDI brought up Gary Ezzo for the umpteenth time despite her knowledge that I never used, read, or recommended his materials on child rearing including “On Becoming Baby Wise.”
5yearsinPDI says:
September 30, 2017 at 3:07 pm
“How about all those years of Ezzo? What happens to children who have to treat every adult with full respect and obedience, and are not told to trust their intuitive discomfort when they get a creepy feeling? What about a couple dozen whippings a day until you cheerfully obey outwardly and your spirit is broken such that you never dare to voice legitimate dissent? Does that groom a child for abuse? Do the apostles have any guilt for Ezzo?”
“Do the apostles have any guilt for Ezzo.” Not me but I can‘t speak for C.J., Dave Harvey or Steve Shank. I don’t know their positions on Ezzo.
Here are some (not all) of libelous things 5yearsinPDI has said about me over the years in terms “pushing” Gary Ezzo’s material and thereby promoting child abuse. None of them are remotely true.
5yearsinPDI says:
August 12, 2013 at 1:13 pm
“Maybe I am still under the koolaid, but I was actually hoping and even sort of expecting Brent at the very least to say Ezzo was wrong and a harsh way to raise children and he is sorry they pushed it.”
5yearsinPDI says:
August 13, 2013 at 10:08 am
“Parents alone decide if they are going to homeschool or not, and how to nurse a baby, and if they spank a shy toddler forty times or not (by the way, have you publicly apologized for Ezzo yet?).”
5yearsinPDI says:
August 13, 2013 at 6:11 pm
“But today’s episode leaves me cold. If he [Brent] cares so much about little kids, where is the apology for pushing the Gary Ezzo materials? Hundreds- maybe thousands- of little kids whipped dozens of times a day to meet an arbitrary standard that Ezzo and the SGM apostles/pastors wanted enforced. Hungry babies crying because they could not be fed until Ezzo said so, in an effort to eradicate their self centered sin nature early on.
“Squirming a bit on the diaper table and getting whacked. It gags me even to remember the parenting classes. I at least can say that I argued strongly against some Ezzo in the class and they left me alone. (Not sure why after what Deb Baker went through, I guess some pastors were not as into it as others)
“Brent can’t even say he is sorry for all those little kids who were abused by terrible harsh discipline? He can’t even say he is sorry about Ezzo? Does he still think you can beat the cr@p out of your two year old forty times a day if they don’t smile and say Hi to a stranger and comply with your every command instantly?”
5yearsinPDI
March 7th, 2014 at 9:39 am
“While Brent is focusing on the sex abuse victims right now, he is certainly ignoring the hundreds or thousands of other victims that suffered under his apostolic leadership. For example, where is Brent’s public apology for supporting Ezzo materials, and for all the harmful legalistic practices in SGM? How many kids got 40 whippings a day thanks to the A team? How many kids grew up under rigid rules and were forbidden to even think their authority could be wrong, much less ask a question openly?”
Here is one of several responses I provided 5yearsinPDI over the years.
Brent Detwiler says:
November 2, 2014 at 10:49 pm
“Here’s the truth. Jenny and I never used or promoted anything produced by the Ezzo’s. We didn’t read or own their books. I didn’t allow the sale of their books in the church bookstore. In fact, we expressed concerns to others for their harsh practices.
“Moreover, I began to express concerns for Ezzo’s character and doctrine after John MacArthur and the elders at Grace Community Church put him under discipline in October 1997.
“Your comments are so reckless. You have made up charges which are entirely untrue. Furthermore, you never heard me teach on parenting. If you did, you’d know that all my parenting seminars included a lengthy session on “Do Not Exasperate Your Child.” It included an outline that covered 37 ways we sinfully provoke our children to anger. For example, not regularly communicating our love for them, not constantly letting them know what a privilege it is to have them, not communicating our gratefulness to God for them, being resentful of them or bitter toward them, withholding our affection from them and emotionally withdrawing, not resolving conflicts with them, demanding obedience without relationship, not disciplining them under control, inflicting extreme or severe punishment, disciplining without love and acceptance, not commending them for repentance and response, speaking harshly or scolding, reacting angrily, using ridicule and shame to motivate, etc.
“I don’t know what you experienced at Covenant Fellowship Church [with Dave Harvey] but it had nothing to do with me. I had no involvement with your church and I didn’t’ know your pastors were using and promoting Ezzo.”
5yearsinPDI has repeatedly made up false allegations against me. For example, that I used, promoted and agreed with the Ezzo’s teaching material when the very opposite was true. These were wild accusations with no basis in fact. They were pure fiction. And yet, that hasn’t stop her from blaming me for fomenting the physical abuse of children.
5yearsinPDI was a part of Covenant Fellowship Church in Glenn Mills, PA where the abusive Ezzo material was taught according to her. Yet, she has never “outed” her pastors that I can recall. I don’t get it. She “outs” me for something I did not do but covers up for her former pastors who allegedly taught members to “beat the crap out of your two-year old forty times a day.”
Here is another thing I don’t understand. Pastors from Covenant Fellowship Church conspired to cover-up the sexual abuse of children and badly mistreated the victims and yet she has not expose them. Why? That includes Dave Harvey, Mark Prater, Jared Mellinger, Marty Machowski, Jim Donohue and Andy Farmer. Some of these men were her pastors.
Sex Abuse Victim Asserts Prominent SGM Pastor Marty Machowski “Threw My Children & I to the Wolves”
Friday, October 31, 2014 at 2:39 PM
Brent Detwiler
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/sex-abuse-victim-asserts-prominent-sgm-pastor-marty-machowsk.html
A Victim’s Anguished Letter to Dave Harvey Revealing Sexual Abuse & Its Alleged Cover Up at Covenant Fellowship Church
Saturday, November 08, 2014 at 2:10 PM
Brent Detwiler
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/a-victims-anguished-letter-to-dave-harvey-revealing-sexual-a.html
WHAT ABOUT MY OWN SINS
A week ago, 5yearsinPDI claimed again I have never admitted to any wrongdoing when she knows that is untrue.
5yearsinPDI says:
October 6, 2017 at 11:04 am
“Show me one link to any admission of what the Apostolic team created and enforced for 30 years as at least partially wrong by BD.”
I first wrote about my sins in December 2011.
What About My Own Sins?
Saturday, December 31, 2011 at 7:12AM
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/2011/12/31/what-about-my-own-sins.html
5yearsinPDI is well acquainted with this post. I’ve mentioned it several times over the years. For example,
Brent Detwiler
August 12th, 2013 at 7:15 am
“I have admitted to ways I erred (see What About My Own Sins) but it is a denial of God’s grace to say SGM did produce good fruit for many years. It is the personal ambition, corruption and hypocrisy of its leaders that has now destroyed SGM. One final thought. There has been lording and spiritual abuse in SGM but the same is true of Survivors. Certain writers slander, lord it over, and abuse people on this blog. And in the process, they hide behind alias identities with no accountability. This rivals the hypocrisy of SGM. The things they condemn they do. 5yearsinPDI, I hope to hear from you in person rather than on Survivors.”
Brent Detwiler says:
February 6, 2016 at 7:34 pm
“5yearsinPDI
“You know I have acknowledged wrongdoing on this blog. For example, quickly telling people they were bitter or resentful, overemphasizing certain practices, contributing to human idolatry (e.g. C.J. worship). I have also been charged by you for sins that were unfounded and false. That too is recorded on this blog. I still hope you will talk to me.”
Honestly, I am baffled by her deceit in making accusations she knows are false. She has done this repeatedly.
THIS BLOG WILL LOSE CREDIBILITY
I have no doubt 5yearsinPDI will continue to libel and attack me.
5yearsinPDI says:
October 6, 2017 at 11:04 am
“This blog WILL lose credibility if Brent is not held accountable. I guarantee it.”
Unfortunately, the blog has lost credibility because most of the people who provided sound information with a godly attitude stopped contributing. 5yearsinPDI is now the dominate commentator. That is not good.
I’ve touched on some of my concerns that illustrate her lack of credibility, etc. Here is another. She puts forth erroneous narratives because she does not research the facts or study the evidence.
This illustration comes from Todd Wilhelm’s blog, Thou Art the Man. In March, Wilhelm posted “Solid Proof that PJ Smyth Has Known for Many Years that John Smyth Was Violently Abusing Boys Left in His Care.” 5yearsinPDI posted an irresponsible comment that put forth a harmful narrative contradicted by all the facts because she did not do her homework. I rarely comment on other blogs but her gross negligence had to be addressed.
See https://thouarttheman.org/2017/03/03/solid-proof-pj-smyth-known-many-years-john-smyth-violently-abusing-boys-left-care/.
Brent Detwiler
March 7, 2017
5yearsinPDI
You are missing the point. You are making an issue out of a non-issue and that is not helpful. It confuses people. You said,
“I can totally picture PJ’s father telling him it was lies and exaggerations. I can imagine that the boys were labeled as unstable, not to be trusted, trying to destroy God’s work, ad nauseum. Brent claims it is clear. Maybe to us, not necessarily to PJ. Even with four men and numerous testimonies, who is PJ gonna believe? His Dad (who “God is using”) saying it is Satan attacking, or a bunch of (upset, emotional, unreliable) teens? The capacity of the human soul for denial is enormous. … I have no problem thinking PJ was duped. I’ve been duped. It is easy to be duped when God’s blessing appears to be on a man.”
P.J. never claimed his father told him “it was lies and exaggerations.” P.J. claimed in his statement to CLC that he NEVER talked to his dad about any of the allegations. In other words, P.J. claimed his father made no attempt to deceive him. None. They never talked about the matter. P.J. asserted he knew of no abuse by his father in the UK or Zimbabwe. Therefore, it is impossible that P.J. was duped by his father. The subject never came up according to P.J.
Here is some of what he said.
“I never saw or heard anything that led me to suspect my father was engaged in the activities alleged. … I was never aware of any abuse. … I was not involved with those interactions. … I assumed that it was something relatively minor and it never occurred to me to press my father for detail.”
Of course, these denials by P.J. are lies. He did in fact talk to his father and many others talked to him about the allegations of abuse including David Coltart, the leading civil rights attorney of Zimbabwe. In their June 1993 meeting, Coltart presented overwhelming evidence of guilt to P.J. and his father. So did four respected pastors from Zimbabwe. These men interviewed multiple victims of abuse from the Christian Brothers’ College and presented the details to P.J.
But again, P.J. has never remotely said what you suggest that he heard about the allegations and was presented with evidence, but didn’t believe it because ‘God is using’ my father or ‘Satan is attacking’ or the teens are ‘upset, emotional or unreliable.’ None of this is part of the record. It is not a question of being duped by his father. It is a matter of lying. You have made something out of nothing.
Given the facts, you shouldn’t even raise the possibility that P.J. was duped by his father’s lies and exaggerations. It is a non-issue. Yet you say, “I have no problem thinking PJ was duped.” In so doing, you have created a false narrative that is completely irrelevant and leads people to erroneous conclusions. People need to be clear headed about the issues. P.J. categorically denied all knowledge of abuse and all involvement with others addressing the abuse. He also claimed never talking to his father about the abuse.
DO NOT REBUKE A SCOFFER OR HE (SHE) WILL HATE YOU
I have “turned the other cheek” hundreds of times with 5yearsinPDI and rarely sought to defend myself or correct her. I have been victimized by her countless times. I have often asked to talk with her about her concerns and accusations but she has always refused.
When people write anything honorable about me or post my articles or ask me good questions, she inevitably speaks ill of me and regurgitates false accusations. This has been painful to endure. From my perspective, she is sinfully obsessed and motivated by hate. I am “pure scum.”
I’ve thought about writing a post about 5yearsinPDI over the years but always refrained. Proverbs 9:8 says “Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you.” This will be my first and last attempt to defend and correct. I hope it will help her but I expect it will result in further abuse.
As I’ve mentioned in the past, 5yearsinPDI is more abusive, deceitful, controlling, authoritarian and heavy-handed than the vast majority of pastors in Sovereign Grace during my years. She is blind to her hypocrisy. I hope that changes.
There are many other false accusations I could address but I don’t plan to do so. What I have written is enough. From my perspective, 5yearsinPDI thrives on being the center of attention by making me the center of attention. I don’t plan to read or comment on SGMSurvivors any longer.
5years … It’s in your court now. Brent has opened the door for you to contact him and to talk. I would suggest that, after all that was just written, you would take the time to do so. Your call.
Wow. A lot of time went into that.
I have to be brief tonight, but real fast:
“At times, I have been too focused on a person’s perceived sins (like bitterness) and not the person, thought or conveyed concerns for pride that were not present, over emphasized practice in relation to principle, not listened carefully to people bringing concerns about leaders I was responsible for, or given inadequate consideration to counsel or input provided me due to my own pride. These are the things for which I have asked forgiveness of the people above.”
I never saw that before, and I am glad to see Brent apologized for making biblical principals into legalistic practices (what Harris said) and that he can see that he saw signs of pride that were not evident. I still think he has failed to apologize for his part on the A team in a denomination wide church structure that was recycled 70s shepherding, with leaders on pedestals given far too much top down control, but I am glad to finally see a link to an apology. I’d love to see him also address that video where he talks about CJ in the most glowing possible terms…but I am glad to see this.
If Brent had permission to out all the sex abuse victims he outed, then I apologize for not knowing that and falsely accusing him.
My own (Reformed and Charismatic and went to a Reformed seminary) pastor is the one who said if you read the description of false apostles in Corinthians and somebody fits the description and IS a false apostle, then they are a servant of Satan. I didn’t make that up, the bible said it. And I still think CJ was a false apostle. So did hub and pastor. (If I am wrong, I will be happy to find out in heaven.)
It is generally wrong to question people’s motives, so I will apologize for doing that in public on this blog. I will say that I know some godly people in ministry who shared the same thinking with us….that Brent is significantly going after CJ in his posts, not just trying to help victims….but that’s our opinion. The fact is we all have mixed motives, even on our best days doing our best service for the Lord. We all fall short. But I am also sure that anybody reading the lawsuits would feel enraged, among other emotions, and I should have not been so one sided in my comments. Of course Brent must have been sickened and enraged to read those stories.
But I ask again- did they happen in a vacuum? Or did the A team create an atmosphere and climate where these awful cover ups could happen so easily? Did the A team create a climate where people were pressured not to call cops, and intimidated and accused if they said anything? Was that just local pastors, and the A team was not controlling or repressive or responsible?
Brent says quoting JH…..”I’ve discovered that yours and Tim’s (& Ricki’s) [Tim’s wife] recollections of your discussions have some important differences. I’m concerned you have mischaracterized what Tim was trying to convey during those times and could then be tempted to offense and speaking wrongly of Tim and the way he represented the church. In order to clear this up, I feel it would be beneficial for the three of us to get together to resolve these differences. Would you be available to do this? Let me know and thanks for considering this.”
Kim refused to meet with Jim and Tim.”
Good for her. JH claimed her memories were wrong, makes her out to be tempted to offense, and you call her libelous and malicious. She posted more at one point…maybe at Refuge?….and she sounded calm, credible, reasonable, and intelligent. We don’t have any videos or tape recordings, so it is her word against you and JH. I believe her.
If you were genuinely against Ezzo that’s good to know, and I have no reason not to believe you. But I ask again, did Ezzo happen in a vacuum? Was the A team’s heavy handed authority doctrine something that Ezzo fit nicely with? Is the A team innocent?
Running out of time….
Smyth…yes, I have come to believe he lied. I tried to extend grace but I now think he lied.
Horror stories from other SGM/PDI leaders….I read the MM one a while back; I read about the hush fund. They should have gone to jail. If I didn’t express more outrage here, you can be sure I felt it and in my church circles people were reading it in horror.
You still don’t get it:
“Show me one link to any admission of what the Apostolic team created and enforced for 30 years as at least partially wrong by BD.”
I first wrote about my sins in December 2011.”
I do appreciate the link to your own personal apology. But that was not what I was after. Everybody sins in relationships, you made personal mistakes with people and apologized. Good. But what I was after is a Bob Mumford style admission that shepherding is wrong. The entire structure was (in significant part) wrong. I don’t think you can see it yet, maybe some day you will.
Somewhere- the problem happened here, and I am not going to talk privately. If there is more to deal with then I can be confronted here where it happened. And like I said, he does not know the meaning of confidential in my opinion. Kris said the same thing when Sande (IIRC..maybe AOR?) wanted to talk privately. As she said the, the comments are public here and any discussion will happen here, not secretly.
If anybody here wants an apology from me for anything I will do my best to get back to you tomorrow but I am way out of time. Probably forgot some things. Oh yes FF….I believe him. Like I said, no videos, no recordings. but I believe him. It fits with 100 other stories.
Brent- thanks again for finding that link and doing your best to deal with what I said. There are probably plenty of things I said years ago I might not say now, even if I still thought them. Maybe working through things here isn’t always the best way to process the past. Ya think?!
“There are many other false accusations I could address but I don’t plan to do so. What I have written is enough. From my perspective, 5yearsinPDI thrives on being the center of attention by making me the center of attention.
I don’t plan to read or comment on SGMSurvivors any longer.”
_________________
I’m guessing he’ll be back.
I don’t know Drew. Maybe not. You notice he completely ignored the biggest elephant in the room.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rdo7eZCKE
Yeah, I’ve posted this repeatedly. When you know from the docs that by 2003 they were all over CJ in person, in writing, and at retreats, this is revolting. It would be awful leader worship if it was genuine, but at least it would be truthful if genuine, but when you know that it isn’t true, in my opinion to deceive CLC with this was disgraceful. Hey everybody makes mistakes, but high time this one was apologized for. Big big mistake. No, I don’t think he’ll be back because this is still out there and he can’t say he is sorry.
I was thinking today about how upset he gets about his motives being questioned, but its Ok for him to question mine. For what it is worth, when I have prayed so many times for the people represented here and reading here, I thought about the dark stronghold that at least in my past experience hung over the churches. So much fear of man, so much fear of leaders. I wanted so much to see people get free. But Brent thinks I am just trying to get attention by addressing his part on the A team and talking about him? That’s all I want- attention using Brent? It is ok for him to question my motives, but I can’t question his. Vintage SGM. Vintage SGM apostles.
I don’t doubt the sex abuse cover up victims are grateful for Brent. But that is only one subset of the stories. And I hope my posting has been at least a little bit of “balm in Gilead” for the rest of the people who were caught up in all the other problems. Problems enforced by, taught by, defended by, and enabled by, the A team.
By the way, years ago when I started posting here we had been out for years. I thought I was over it. But when I started posting, for a long time, I felt gripped by fear that they might find out who I was and start calling me and accusing me and making big trouble. I wrote about it here, and other people said that they struggled with the same awful fear. It is one thing to accuse people of wrong doing to post anonymously; it is another thing to ask yourself what sort of climate created that fear of SGM leaders. Its like kids- you can yell at them for hiding things or lying, it is another to look at your parenting and wonder what the climate is in the home if the kid is sneaky. Always we have to start with an inward look.
Well, I think my imput on this is as complete as I can make it. Some day maybe a BD victim who suffered under his heavy handed apostolic authority will read this and be glad to see others are aware of it and recognize his failure to repent of apostolic policy wrongdoing. I hope so. And THAT is my motive. My motive is the SGM survivors. And just to be fair, I think the whole A team needs to repent, not just BD. They could learn a good lesson from Bob Mumford renouncing shepherding.
___
SGMsurvivors,
hmmm…
If Jim P, owner of the now defunct SGMRefuge.com had not outed Brent Detwiler ‘s ‘boss’ in the SGM wiki leak documents, it would more than likely still be business as usual at SGM/SGC. And furthermore —more than likely business as usual for a biblically documented false apostle such as the likes of former SGM 501(c)3 religious official Brent Detwiler.
Q. You will ‘know’ them by their fruit?
huh?
“Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 1By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit… (Matt 7:15-17)
“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.” (Matt 7:6)
:-(
Let there be light…
ATB
Sòpy
– –
___
“Religious Tyranny R US?”
hmmm…
For some 25+ years Brent Detwiler helped former SGM president C.J. Mahaney with the ‘doctrine of indwelling sin’ ™ weaponize Christianity.
Q. Who can number it’s victims?
(sadface)
Sòpy
:-(
– –
Thank you Sopy.
My husband was quite impressed with your comment. He said ” ‘weaponizing the doctrine of indwelling sin’ is the perfect way to describe it.”
God bless you brother.
One thing people might find interesting that someone shared with me is Josh Harris’s website:
https://joshharris.com/about/
I find it interesting Josh has no Christian emphasis in his “about” section or for that matter the rest of his website except the section about his film on “kissing dating goodbye.” This is part of his “about” section.
Words matter to me. I’ve written six books that have sold over 2 million copies. I’ve also helped others get their message into book form. I’m a public speaker who has spoken around the world and coached others to be dynamic communicators. I also love new forms of communication in social media and YouTube. I live with my family in Vancouver, BC, where I’m completing a Masters Degree and filming a documentary.
I do find this interesting. Perhaps now rather than be a pastor Josh is wanting to explore a secular job but still no mention of what his past focus was.
For some reason my blockquoting didn’t work on the above comment.
The paragraph starting with “Words matter” was from Josh Harris’s website.
If Josh brings up the fact that he was a pastor, it will beg the question, “Where?”
He might just want to keep the questions about CLC/SGM at bay.
If I were him, I would leave that fact out, too. If he’s trying to support his family, then he’s doing the wisest thing in marketing himself as an author. Mentioning being a pastor would not really help his business and could muddy the waters.
I wish him a lot of luck in his endeavors. This is a hard world to live in and I hope it goes well for people.
Sorry, a few comments on the topic of posting anonymously (or not)… My experience with CLC/SGM leaders was always that they filtered what was said to them through the lens of what they thought they already knew about the speaker. Meanwhile, they expected us to evaluate what was said to us based on content alone…
What’s that verse…”You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us?” That should be painted over their office doors as a warning to all who enter…
Yes, posting anonymously allows for trolls and wildly inaccurate statements, but more importantly, it forces us to judge the quality of what was said by the words on the page – not by our preconceived notions about the speaker. If 5years (for example) wants to go over to Brent’s facebook page and id herself, that is her business. But if she doesn’t, it doesn’t really matter what her name is – either what she says here has credence or it doesn’t. Period. And she is as vulnerable to being criticized and trashed here as anyone else is.
And do we really need to revisit the idea of meeting with a pastor (or former pastor) to discuss a point of disagreement? The biblical instruction so often cited works among friends maybe, but it doesn’t work – at all – when the person who is being criticized is in a position of power or authority over the bearer of the criticism. Meeting present and past CLC/SGM pastors alone – or, really, even with witnesses – is an exercise in futility.
But my point is – posting anonymously is not just about fear of reprisals. It’s about forcing the listener to allow the words to speak for themselves.
Good point Stunned.
Who knows if Josh perhaps ever had a call to be a pastor. From what I have read it sounds like more something both Josh’s dad and C.J. Mahaney arranged for him vs. something he really wanted to do. Even if Josh thought he might want to do this it was without Josh ever really finding himself such as going to college or at least getting out of the bubble he was in.
Also, I think it is good when someone isn’t a “pastor for life” but just does it for a season. I am sure there are some that would prefer to do something else but have no other way to make a living. Also, it is great when someone who has significant real world experience can become a pastor.
Steve240.
Not sure if you have seen this.
http://www.npr.org/2016/07/10/485432485/former-evangelical-pastor-rethinks-his-approach-to-courtship
Interesting how Josh says – “We have God’s word, but then it’s so easy to add all this other stuff to protect people, to control people, to make sure that you don’t get anywhere near that place where you could go off course. And I think that’s where the problems arise.”
I may have missed the conversation over this; otherwise I believe there has been some true reflection and repentance on Josh’s part.
Unassimilated
Thanks for sharing the link and quote. I listened to that message a while back.
I have no doubt in my mind that Josh’s views have changed or at least relaxed his views on “kissing dating goodbye” and “courtship” though at the same time Josh is being quite silent about this change. People have to draw this out of Josh vs. Josh posting on his blog his updated views on IKDG or even admitting the problems IKDG/Courtship has caused.
My issue with his silence goes back around 10 years:
https://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/what-problems-joshua-harris-acknowledged-about-how-singles-relate-at-his-church-but-doesn%E2%80%99t-share-on-his-website/
As I blogged about, Josh did give a few messages back when he was pastor of CLC admitting there were problems with how singles related at CLC but at the same time failed to share these problems anywhere really including on his blog. If Josh had done this then maybe it would have opened dialogue and people admitting that IKDG isn’t perfect and IKDG creates its own separate problems. Sadly back then Josh chose not to and to this day really hasn’t publicly said that much.
I know he is now involved with a documentary about “surviving” IKDG but wonder what spin this documentary will put on the issues that IKDG caused.
I can understand Josh being reluctant to go public on the “defects” of IKDG/Courtship since it is what brought Josh prominence but sad he has chosen to be basically silent. I am sure admitting these issues might also make waves with his father’s homeschooling crowd. I am glad that others have stepped up to the plate including some in the homeschooling crowd such as Thomas Upmhlett and his “Courtship In Crisis” book.
Thus Josh Harris may have changed his mind but really hasn’t gone public confessing the problems with IKDG/Courtship IMO.
Even though Josh has been gone from CLC for a couple years now, he probably needs to watch what he says. Just speculating, but I wonder if his package required him to “play nice” for a couple years. Do they still sell the books at CLC? I do not think we will ever hear a real change of heart from any of the SGM bigwigs.
These past few days, Josh has been interviewed on our local Christian Radio Station. Family Life Today had a very good conversation with Josh. Josh was very up front and humbled by mistakes he made in writing IKDG. His documentary will be both pro/con on the cost his book made on so many. As I listened to Josh, I was nodding my head up and down at some of the things he has learned after talking with folks and maturing in the Lord. Our family had negative consequences from Josh’s book. Only because our church legalistically followed all the contents of the book to the letter, and we did not. We allowed our son to date. We lost leading a caregroup, friends and felt a shame that brought so much stress to our family. We have left our SGM church. I am grateful that Josh had the guts to admit mistakes and is clearing up some of the mess that was misinterpreted or legalistically applied. Always said I would never write on Survivors, but I wanted to let folks know that Josh is out there trying to do right.
Sick with worry
So you think this separation agreement that Josh Harris allegedly signed might even limit Josh to commenting on his book including the problems IKDG caused?
Thanks for letting us know, Eriegirl!
Steve240,
I am not saying I know for sure, but I am speculating. Separation agreements oftentimes have “non-disparagement” clauses. It may just be that he agreed to “tread lightly” and he is keeping his word. It may explain why he is not expressing any regret in a way that would harm CLC. Regardless of how we feel about Josh and what he should be saying, he may genuinely sense a professional duty to speak carefully and not hurt the church.
Obviously is he has direct knowledge about cover ups, that is where he has a moral obligation. Many agreements cover that as well…. some separation agreements point out that while you cannot “disparage”, we would expect you to be honest in court or during a deposition.
We will never know a lot of stuff that we want to know, that’s for sure.
Eriegirl
Thanks for sharing. Hopefully his documentary will show both the good and bad of IKDG.
That is sad what happened to you and your husband for allowing your son to date. How terrible to allow this. ;-)
One thing that looking back is why did so many people take what Josh Harris felt he had to do in his situation (being obsessed with dating etc.) and think it should apply to all people. Josh may have needed to do what he did for a season but that doesn’t mean everyone should do the same thing.
In other words sadly a whole group of people took a 19 year old’s advice. Not usually wise.
Steve 240
Thank you.
It was amazing to watch (in hindsight)the church take to heart a book, a suggestion, an article and turn it into legalism. I was talking to my husband about this last night. My husband commented on the judgment that happened when you didn’t follow the flow of what was being presented by the leaders. It felt like the Holy Spirit disappeared! I regret being in that camp for many years. It was actually my husband who said, “Wait a minute”. Josh had/has such influence, hopefully things will turn around and people will listen(to the H.S.)and pray to see what is good, specifically for them and their families.
Eriegirl
You might not be aware of this but at what was the “mother ship” or “Mecca” (Covenant Life Church) is that they had been practicing a version of “kissing dating goodbye” almost since their beginning. In early 1978 they instituted this at a singles meeting and then Larry Tomczak came out later in 1978 a book called “Straightforward.” With this being in 1978 it was implemented almost when CLC was started (called Gathering).
In both this meeting and Larry’s book called for doing things in groups vs. dating. Larry stated he didn’t want this to become a legalistic thing but sadly became just that while all the time Larry & C.J. would rave about how much better it worked etc.
My point is that within the SGM culture they have always had this practice of “kissing dating goodbye” though Josh definitely championed it within and especially outside of SGM. Thus for Josh at CLC he wasn’t the one who started it but as some say made it worse there.
What is sad is all these single men and women at CLC and I am sure many other places that are in a way victims of this legalism.
For many groups it was a fad came and went pretty quickly. Almost 10 years ago when I wrote this blog post:
https://ikdg.wordpress.com/2007/12/30/are-people-still-kissing-dating-goodbye/#
You could buy a used copy of his book for $1.00 plus postage. Thus most mainstream Christian groups moved quickly away from this practice though it remained at places like SGM and many homeschooling crowds.
Yes, I am fully aware of the single ministry at GOB. I was single in the beginnings of GOB; followed the teachings and made sure other single “sisters” were understanding the list of rules (I mean guidelines) and regulations (I mean principles) concerning relating to the “brothers”. Of course, a lot of the ideas made sense…being in groups…but the culture got out of hand and became legalistic in nature. I’m hoping, I’m not sure how it is today, that things are different in the church.
Eriegirl
Thanks for letting me know your background and experience.
I agree that a lot of it made sense but got out of hand. That is why I title my blog “IKDG: Wisdom or Foolishness?” I think it has both with few leaders being willing to admit the “foolishness” side.
You can read more of my thoughts there but it always shocked me that it was applied as a “one size fits all” despite a person’s age etc. What might have been designed more for teenagers is ludicrous to impose on most older singles. Dating can also be helpful for developing social skills with the opposite sex that some seem to almost naturally have and that others need to develop. One thing people have pointed out is that Josh did date and develop these social skills but then turned around and told others that they couldn’t date and develop their social skills.
The most shocking thing is how CLC/SGM Leaders continued in their mindset that kissing dating goodbye/courtship had no issues. Then again I imagine they hear what they wanted to hear and similarly “confirmation bias” affected their opinion on this.
I am glad to see a number of other sites are questioning the wisdom of IKDG and see the value in dating.
When I was there at CLC asking a woman out was almost like wanting to get engaged. It was way too serious.
Steve240 said:
“When I was there at CLC asking a woman out was almost like wanting to get engaged. It was way too serious.”
LOL. On the Christian program interviewing Josh, they had a recorded interview that gave a critique on IKDG. Paraphrasing: She said, The problem with the no dating and pro-courtship, was that in order for a guy to get to know a girl he’s interested in, he had to have an engagement ring in his pocket. There was no alternative. Which caused early marriages that might not have happened if a getting to know period (dating) was in play.
Totally understand: way to serious!
Eriegirl
That was one thing I saw back in the early 90’s at CLC. If a couple was seeing each other the pressure was to either get married or break off the relationship. As you indicate that lead to some couples getting married that after being married realized there were compatibility issues.
A shame that this problem was never admitted by leadership.
Historically when the group started (as I am sure you know) the emphasis was on doing things in groups when single people mostly had parents that weren’t a part of CLC. As the church matured and members had children that were of dating age they moved to courtship where to even date a woman the young man had get the father’s permission to do this.
It has always baffled me imposing something like this that took so much effort on the part of the young man. One could only do this so many times. Also couples have a lot of time and effort”invested” when to be able to see each other they have to go through this permission. Thus I am sure that there is a lot of pressure to try and make a courtship arrangement work leading to similar problems of couple finding they incompatible after getting married.
One of the most questionable things I saw in one production documenting one single women’s decision to use the courtship approach:
http://www.indiewire.com/2015/04/tribeca-review-a-courtship-is-christian-matchmaking-gone-awry-62737/
As I recall the “adopted parents” that this woman has that oversee her courtship process wouldn’t allow the couple to be alone together until after they were married. I really wonder just how wise that is. Can you really get to know someone if you are never alone with them before marriage?
I am glad that Josh shared that interview. Maybe this documentary Josh is involved in will actually admit the problems with IKDG and courtship.
OutThere back on the 19th said,
Oh my goodness. That verse out of John 9:34. I had never seen it in the way before but you are oh so right. That so well described my two decades of SGM (SGC) experience.
By the way, it’s good to see some old timers such as Unassimilated and Sopy. I hope to meet you and many others on here one day.
Interesting blog post:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2017/10/on-the-evangelical-response-to-harvey-weinstein.html
It mentions SGM and compares the evangelical response to Weinstein vs. their attitude when one of evangelicals own is exposed. The author has some good points.
Donna Brazile, a Christian woman, in her recently published book, describes her version of “What Happened” events and acknowledges
her regretful decisions and actions during the 2016 election campaign, For some unknown reason, some former SGM community
members appear to take a “velvet glove” approach to Josh Harris’ need to forthrightly admit his complicity in not only the
damage done In lives by IKDG, but also in not pulling back the curtains on SGM leadership as well. We find a more such forthrightness
example in Brazile’s recent documentary and revelations. Reading through this site, does BD get a velvet glove pass?
Who is BD?
Oh, just figured it out. Gotcha.
Hey there Galatians.
The Velvet Glove for Josh may be because of two things he said. One, in a speech about his departure for seminary, he said :
“The plan was for me to be the pastor of Covenant Life with C.J. as the apostle over our church and our movement. I’m not going to go into the story of how that plan got derailed. But suffice it to say there were serious flaws in this structure and from the earliest moments of my tenure as Lead Pastor there was tension and great difficulty behind the scenes.”
He admitted it. Flaws in the structure, specifically mentioning CJ as the top apostle. But anybody who had been there and seen how it operated knew the entire A team and how they bossed local churches was a flawed structure, not only CJ. Way too much authority given to A’s and taken from local pastors. Far as I know only Josh has admitted the structure was flawed.
Secondly, legalism was rampant in SGM. Josh came right out and said God was disciplining them for taking biblical principles, and then insisting on legalistic practices to fulfill those principles. (I can’t remember your history and hope you know what I mean, as I don’t feel like dredging up 100 stories to give you gory details. It was often hard on wives.)
I thought that was a big deal for JH to say that. Then pulling CLC out of SGM was huge. Gigantic. Unheard of. Credit where credit is due. Harris isn’t perfect but you see a serious attempt to do the right thing. He got lots of nasty backlash.
They had Covenant statements and signed agreements that you had to not tell the dirty laundry ever if you leave. It may have been a mistake to sign those vows, and I am sure when Josh came he imagined happy ever after utopia in SGM, but I can see that Josh might have felt legally unable to say more when it all blew up. I assume BD broke such an agreement, but what with the stories like the hush fund, SGM may have felt it best to not take BD to court.
Yeah, BD gets a velvet glove on plenty of sites. Perhaps it is the old principle of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. CJ is the enemy so BD gets a pass for exposing him? It is as if hundreds of stories about SGM, and the entire culture that was created by the A team, is forgotten, and it does not matter if BD has yet to apologize that the whole structure was permeated with control, intimidation, leader worship, legalism, accusation, etc. I assume he does not see it. It did seem like Harris saw it, at least to a degree, and was able to speak up about it.
Time will tell who is repentant. We have apologized to our kids profusely for many things in our church and parenting past, but you don’t always see those things right away. It can take years.
Hey there 5 years in PDI !
Thank you for writing and causing me to realize that I failed see these matters involving Josh through eyes of grace. Looking at it afresh, I do
see the attempts he has made set things right, as you have written, and one person cannot undo the SGM wrongs of so many.
Thanks again for taking the time to write!
First, Josh began hearing stories on the blogs and from members breaking the silence and he openly invited them to come to his house and talk about their experiences. When the first meeting around Dec of that year overbooked, he had another one in Jan. Wasn’t it true the former leaders were furious that he let people openly speak about their grievances. They were angrier still when he identified specific spiritually abusive practices and openly apologized in May. Then the wiki-leaks docs were released online and Josh did something brilliant. He opposed CJ in the presence of 1500 witnesses at the family meeting. No one had ever successfully opposed CJ without disappearing suspiciously with a severance package and a confidentiality agreement never to be heard from again. It’s not like Josh didn’t know the rules. He knew exactly what they were. By publicly opposing CJ, he provided the protection of witnesses to himself and every person that spoke up that night.
CJ’s supporters were outraged at the Family Meeting. Many had already decided to leave the church that night. The “behind closed doors” and “no open mic” policy had controlled all communication for decades and Josh opened the doors so we could all watch and speak openly in the presence of witnesses.
All havoc broke loose at SGM which resulted in Josh’s resignation from SGM that week.
Is it true when the Nate Morales trial suddenly contradicted the pastor’s statements on when Grant knew about Nate, some pastors put extraordinary pressure on Josh to lie to the congregation? Didn’t two old-timers say if he told the truth to the congregation, they would resign? To which Josh said if he didn’t tell the truth to the congregation, he would have no choice but to resign. He ended up awkwardly stumbling through a non-explanation to the congregation under coercion? Later he resigned to go to seminary?
He was the most refreshingly honest thing to happen at CLC in 30 years. One long-time member remarked, “I just don’t feel safe around here anymore”. To which another responded, “This is the first time I’ve felt safe around here in 20 years”.
In regards to IKDG, it seemed he saw the weaknesses early on. I remember him addressing the singles ministry and the entire congregation trying to get them to lighten up on their interpretations of his book.
Galatians….
Don’t assume you lack grace. I remember (not at CLC, we attended elsewhere) hearing Josh say that his goal in life was to be exactly like CJ.
This is from 2005:
“I wish I could clone C. J. so that 5,000 young guys like me could have their own private Mahaney mentor. But it’s not possible. What is possible is to read his books. Start with Humility: True Greatness. And today, with the web, you can listen to dozens of his sermons. And hopefully, if I can convince him, C. J. will have his own blog so his influence can be more frequent.”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/2005/12/adrian-interviews-josh-harris-about/
He was living on strong Kool Aid for a while. If you don’t follow the ins and outs of endless blogs it is hard to know who has said what when, and how people change. I would imagine your opinions were formed from accurate discernment in years past. Of course he may have plenty left to unravel from the CJ days. I spent years unraveling early charismatic shepherding doctrine. I think JH is much farther along with seeing the systemic problems endemic in SGM than BD is.
Interesting post, Just saying.
“I had the story, bit by bit, from various people, and, as generally happens in such cases, each time it was a different story.” —Edith Wharton
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Why I don’t trust the memories
just saying said:
Just realize that for Josh Harris is was much easier for him to point out issues with Covenant Life Church and Sovereign Grace Ministries than it was for Josh Harris to criticize his “Kissing Dating Goodbye”/Courtship teaching. The SGM/CLC fiasco and issues weren’t something that he created while the KDG/Courtship was something Josh “championed.” Josh’s actions reflect his reluctance to criticize KDG while being much freer to point out issues at CLC and SGM.
Yes Josh did give a few messages at CLC acknowledging problems with how singles related and even letting singles know that it was OK for a single man and woman to go out and have coffee. I summarized it here:
https://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/what-problems-joshua-harris-acknowledged-about-how-singles-relate-at-his-church-but-doesn%E2%80%99t-share-on-his-website/
Though it might have been a good step I doubt just a few messages that Josh gave was enough to change the culture that he indicated existed at CLC.
What Josh failed to do was ever admit these problems or any “defects” with courtship anywhere more public like on his blog though he was quick to point out “defects” with dating. Again it can be hard to see/admit “defects” with a system that you championed and what brought you a lot of recognition.
From what I have seen a number of other people have now started to publicize the issues with KDG/Courtship so Josh Harris need to do anything at this point is really not that necessary.
3 of the pastors that were asked to leave Immanuel’s Church want to come back. It’s only been a couple months. Why can’t they leave us alone and let us heal. It seems selfish on their part. All this drama seems ridiculous. I don’t know what the board of trustees will say about this. There are plenty of other churches in the area.
Chloe
That is shocking that these pastors want to come back. I am assuming that Charles Schmitt isn’t one of the 3 pastors you are talking about but it wouldn’t surprise me if he wanted to come back and even felt there would be no issue with him coming back.
Whichever 3 pastors you are taking about either must have known about all that Charles Schmitt did or if they didn’t weren’t doing their job to stay informed. Thus I don’t think they should be allowed to come back just based on that.
I don’t know which pastors want to come back. Charles Schmitt is starting a church in his home, is what I’ve heard. A lot of people believe the other pastors knew what was happening. If they did or not why didn’t they have the leading of the Holy Spirit to know things were not right and the courage to get him out of the pulpit. Why couldn’t they have banned together and forced him out. I have yet to hear one of those pastors apologize.
It’s so distressing Immanuel’s Church didn’t know about Schmitt when so many people from CLC were aware. We always wondered why in the world anyone would go there. We thought everyone knew.
Well I think a lot of what Charles Schmitt did and his history was sadly kept silent. Also Schmitt apparently was good at manipulating and claiming other leaders were going after him due to his not agreeing with CLC shepherding techniques.
Also, it certainly didn’t help that Larry Tomczak reconciled with Schmitt essentially giving Schmitt a clean bill of health when that apparently was never the case.
Yeah, when you see a leader claiming to be a victim, by those who accuse him of wrongdoing, that’s often a red flag.
I was a staff person at Immanuels, like many others I was “let go” because I began to put two and two together with the entire Schmitt Family and brought it up to other pastors. There is ZERO CHANCE that any pastor there did not know what was going on
Fired-
Thank you. You did the right thing to bring it up.
You are better off living on a park bench than to keep silent about what was being done to vulnerable young men. Whatever loss you had will be amply repaid in heaven if not before.