Hey there
September 11, 2017 in Sovereign Grace Ministries, Sovgracemin
Guy here –
I’ll bet you thought I was dead and buried, didn’t you :). Nope. Just creating a new post because the comments are getting too large.
Hope everyone is doing well. Perhaps we can all play catch up soon?
© 2017 – 2018, Kris. All rights reserved.
Its distressing to think some of the pastors would try to come back … i know that they may have known in varying degrees what was going on and were all dismissed together, but really? Go sort it out with God and stop thinking about your lost paycheck … does anyone know who the three are?
Yup .. God will take care of you…
Dear Fired,
A million bravos for you for asking questions!!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m sorry you’re paying the price now, but I’m glad your soul isn’t paying the price for turning a blind eye. I can’t imagine how that would have eaten away at your soul.
I went to Immanuel’s Church for 5 years, and I can tell you I was never aware of what was going on, and my friends didn’t know either. I definitely wish that those who had known his history would have clearly explained what they knew. It seems the pastors knew and some of the staff knew, but the general congregation did not know. Here is what I do know. Back around 2004/2005ish there was some type of mini scandal. Pastor Charles did something, and some people left the church. One Sunday Pastor Charles and Dottie went on stage to address the issue, and Pastor Charles admitted to doing something that involved massages. That’s it. He did not go into detail, but he apologized to the church. I was about 19 at the time, and I thought to myself, that’s it. People are leaving because of massages. Most of the people in the church, myself included, simply forgave him the way we would anyone else who had fallen into sin, and moved on with life. In fact, the fact that he would be willing to go before the church and admit his sin only made him seems more humble and honorable. I also remember hearing some of the young guys on staff joking once that you needed to be careful which pastors in the church you were around. But I didn’t take it seriously, and thought they were just gossiping. I know you would think that the massages thing should have been a red flag, but at the time, it just seemed like a minor sin that anyone could fall into and be forgiven of. But now that I’m older, I would definitely process something like that differently.
Imagine my surprise years later to find out that he was not just involved in massages, but outright sexual relationships with various men from the church, that someone had made an effort to inform people, and that he had tried to downplay the issue by saying it was just massages. Imagine my surprise to learn that this type of thing had been going on for decades, and that he had been kicked out of multiple churches for the same behavior, that the pastoral staff knew about it, his wife, and his middle daughter. It makes me sick to my stomach knowing that we were all going to his church, listening to his teachings, and he was a fraud, him, his wife, the whole pastoral team. I’m still processing it, and feel so deceived, and have a difficult time trusting pastors in general now.
I say all of that to say, no, the majority of us didn’t know. We honestly thought the Schmitts were decent people. Imperfect like the rest of us, but still genuine. And now we know differently.
Maryland Girl said (regarding Charles Schmitt):
also
First thanks for sharing what you know about Charles Schmitt. We have also heard the “massage” line used by a former SGM pastor who was convicted of soliciting a prostitute. That is an old trick to try and minimize things.
One thing that is disappointing about Schmitt is that at a minimum he should have stepped down from ministry for a period of time when he admitted his “massage” indiscretion. Sadly like we have seen with C.J. Mahaney is that rules that might apply to other leaders aren’t always applied to the top leader in a group especially when this person has a lot of power. Thus sadly Schmitt was able to get away with what he did with no consequences at that time.
I am sure what has come out about Schmitt has surprised a lot of people.
Where there’s smoke there’s usually fire.
Here is a little insider history for you. In the mid 1990s, Charles got cought by a young couple who were pastors in the Church and they resigned and moved out of state, shortly after that Guy Carey who had known Charles since the 1970s in Minnesota moved up from Florida and was put in as #2. There is no way he did not know what was going on. Since then there has been a revolving door of Pastors and other staff people who have come and gone. The ones that have stayed on long term all knew full well what was going on and Guy was at the helm. The funny thing was how all the Schmitt’s were all drawing large fat salaries while pretty much doing nothing especially Dotty and Diana. They were always gone, going to Israel, Going on vacations, going to stay at their beach house in Ocean City, taking weeks off at a time with unlimited vacation.
When they were not on Vacation they were never at the Church, they rarely visited anyone in the hospital or did any other things.
Charles would be gone all the time supposedly on mission trips all over the world.
Diana’s husband was arrested for getting drunk and urinating in public and public indecency and it was kept quiet of course, he also had the habit of showing up at the church and using terrible profanity right in the building.
All the while the Schmitt’s would play poor, it was a total joke. Diana who lives in a very nice house in a high dollar neighborhood actually had the gall once to complain from the pulpit once while she was preaching how she was forced to live in a tiny run down house and the only way she could get peace was to put headphones on and read the Bible at her kitchen table.
Guy Carey did pretty much nothing, but protect Charles and for that he was rewarded greatly. Around 2010 he announced publicly that he was leaving to go back to Florida but he never did. Right around that time is when Larry Tomzak showed up andy guess was vying for Guys slot
The non Schmitt’s and non Guy Carey Pastors did all the work of the pastor’s as far as tending the flock and there were lots of non paid elders and ministers that did a lot, all of these people either worked for free or got paid far less than if they were Schmitt’s.
David Black was making a ton of money from Camp Sonshine. The Camp pretty much took over the entire building and had priority but it provided Charles with access to young college age men, again there is no way David Black didn’t know what was going on.
I began to witness a lot of things and heard a lot of things from other staff people. I can’t get into to much detail because if I did it would become obvious who I am, and I am afraid of getting sued.
Let’s just say I reported what I was hearing and seeing to certain non Schmitt Pastors not named Guy Carey and was shown the door under mysterious circumstances just like so many before me.
What sticks out the most to me looking back is a comment Charles made during a sermon back in the early 1990s when a famous TV preacher (Jimmy Swagert) got cought up in sexual sin for a second time. Charles said he knew he was guilty of sin because of the way he publicly rebuked Jim Baker for the same thing a few years prior.
Fast forward about 20 years and the state of Maryland was trying to legalize gay marriage. The lectures Charles gave from the pulpit about how wrong Homosexuality was, was simply stunning, yet he was having gay sex regularly with men, all the while being protected by Guy, Diana, Jamie, Dave, Beverly, Cecil, and most sickening his wife and partner in a lifetime of hypocrisy Dotty, and now they want to come back, amazing, simply amazing
To hear how they coordinated cover up after cover up rather than just doing the responsible thing and removing him from ministry is just so disheartening. These people were supposed to be caring for God’s people, not abusing them, and not putting on a fake Christian piety while protecting the reputation of a man they knew full well was unqualified to be a pastor.
I’ve sat in the sanctuary listening to Diana with her happy bubbly voice on a number of times welcome people to Immanuel’s Church where it’s not an accident that you’re here, that you’ll be loved here, and making her call for people give money to the church. I also remember being at Immanuel’s when they hosted the Love Won Out conference run by Exodus International. You know that now defunct organization that ministered to those in the gay community and provided their families with resources to help their loved ones dealing with same-sex attraction. I was also there when Eddie James Ministries visited and all of the speaker’s testimonies were about how God had delivered them from their same-sex attraction.
Pastor Charles and the other pastors hosted these events, as if to say, we need to know how to help those other people that have these struggles, the whole time knowing that he was engaging in same sex relationships, and that they were covering for it. I don’t blame Charles Schmitt (he shouldn’t be called “Pastor Charles” ever again, but it’s a habit) for struggling with same sex attraction. I remember him saying once that his father was this mean strict German father, and had abused him as a child, and locked him in a closet once. And I always thought how amazing it was that with all of that craziness in his childhood that he had overcome that and didn’t wind up psychologically damaged or an abuser himself. So I don’t blame him for his feelings. I do blame him for going into ministry despite his struggles, and using his position of authority to gain access to young men to use and abuse. I blame him for the systematic predatory behavior, for the flagrant hypocrisy, and for dragging everyone in his circle down with him. And now he’s starting another church in his living room….What a train wreck.
Just in case you haven’t seen this post by Brent Detwiler:
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/charles-schmitt-is-a-false-shepherd-predatory-homosexual-div.html
Maryland Girl
Fired from Immanuels
I am sure Brent Detwiler would welcome your correspondence and sharing what you feel comfortable with him.
This is from the above link:
Sadly it must have been too convenient for Schmitt’s family to ignore Schmitt’s sin since Immanuels was their source of income.
I understand the church attendance is way down. What is really sad is that a lot of people at Immanuels as I understand it came from Halpine when they had a scandal and now there is one at Immanuels.
I am a member of the community that surrounds Immanuels. Over the years, I have occasionally worshipped there, and my family members have attended the camp. I was surprised, shocked and heartbroken to hear about Immanuels and CS. To everyone who was a victim of CS or Immanuel’s unfair treatment for speaking up, I extend my deepest sympathy.
I spoke to a family member who is still a member of Immanuels. Although they are far from condoning sex abuse, this individual was very defensive about CS’s behavior (mentioned his past abuse and that ‘hurt people, hurt people”), and questions the complicity of assistant pastors. We spoke in detail about DB, one of the assistant pastors and the head of Camp Sonshine how much knew and his failure to report CS if he indeed knew what was happening. It was mentioned that DB was the one who got Metanoia involved, but I was saddened to read that the mediation process fell short of dealing appropriately with CS. Former trustees wanting to come back just after a few months and CS starting another church speak volumes to this. And not conducting a thorough investigation (apparently many parties were victims and have yet to speak up) sets the stage for festering open wounds. Most dangerously, CS is still “free” to carry on as usual. Who will be CS’s next victim? Fifty plus years of this behavior without appropriate intervention? Who gets hurt next? It’s a slap in the face for the individuals whose lives are scarred forever.
It just seems to me that toxic culture present at SGM and CLC was/is also present to an extent at Immanuels. It’s this culture that created the perfect environment for a coverup and the excusal of CS’s behavior, as well as the assistant pastors.
I imagine that there is similar teaching and culture at Immanuels on gossip and slander and “believing the best” that existed/exists at CLC/SGM. This culture includes quite a broad definition of what “gossip” or “slander” is which then makes people afraid of questioning or discussing with other members issues or problems they see especially with leadership.
Thus Charles Schmitt’s actions were able to occur with few being aware for so long. Had more people questioned and shared their concerns and perhaps a blog like this existed then maybe Schmitt’s actions would have come out much earlier. I imagine Charles Schmitt and other top leaders intentionally taught how bad it was to “gossip” or “question” since they knew this would enable their being able to hide Charles Schmitt’s sin.
I would be curious to hear from someone that has attended Immanuels and to hear their perspective on this.
I don’t remember them really teaching on gossip at Immanuel’s. But within Christian teaching obviously gossip is a sin. So it’s there even if it’s not being actively taught. But I distinctly remember Charles Schmitt on numerous occasions saying that “hurt people hurt people”. He was the first person I had ever heard use that saying. That is why you will hear other members of Immanuel’s coming to his defense with this line. It is only in hindsight that I can see that he laced his sermons with excuses and partial confessions of his own sin. We just didn’t realize at the time.
Also, people are fiercely protective of people they love, including their pastors. If the pastor seems like a good guy who would never do anything wrong, you will think oh, this is just an attack from the enemy. They’re trying to take down a man of God. It’s hard for Christians to look into the ugliness of the truth and accept that someone we thought was a boy scout actually was a wolf attacking the sheep, and brought this on himself.
Maryland Girl
Thanks for responding.
At CLC I remember mentioning to a leader about a few things that I had heard that another leader had done to someone. The first response of the leader I was talking with was why was I told this information. This leader told me that my response should have been to tell this person not to share this information with me but to “go in private” to this leader.
As we know, “going in private” rarely worked with CLC leadership. They would deflect or “usually turn the tables” on the person “going in private.” Rarely would the leader see and admit their own sin. It took blogs like this and other places like this that made quite public questionable actions to make people aware and produce at least some change.
This type of teaching lead to many never really sharing their concerns about CLC and people thinking they were the only ones with this concern.
Thus my theory is that one of the reasons that this broad definition of what “gossip” and “slander” was allowed CLC and SGM leadership to get away with things for a while. I was wondering if something similar allowed Charles Schmitt to be able to hide his sin for so long.
you said:
Well denial is a powerful thing with so many people and people don’t want to admit that they have been duped by someone claiming to be a man of God. It is easier to to want to deny that Charles Schmitt did all that has come out vs. admit and have to deal with it. Cognitive dissonance is one term people talk about.
Some good insight from Rebecca Davis in thinking through “gossip” and how rules surrounding it can inappropriately protect abusers:
http://www.heresthejoy.com/2017/11/john-pipers-gossip-post-is-good-but-needs-part-2/
I don’t know any of CS victims who are now emotionally well enough to speak out and take on a manipulator like this.
Be sure to check out
#churchtoo https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=%23churchtoo&src=typeahead_click
Church needs to clean house starting at the top!
I scrolled through a lot of the #churchtoo tweets. I have mixed feelings about it. I’m all for exposing abusers and calling for accountability in the churches. But a lot of what I saw in those tweets was criticizing legitimate biblical doctrine, and blaming the abusive culture on that doctrine. Some of those women are tearing down Christianity as a whole, basically saying it’s teachings inherently promote abuse. Also, unless those women back those tweets up with filing a police report and exposing the actual abusers by name publicly (if they haven’t already done so), their abusers are free to continue. I see a lot of throwing out the baby with the bath water, with shouts of #emptythepews. As committed believers, we have to have a more responsible approach. If we would simply act on what the bible actually says, hold people accountable, remove them from churches, rather than stage cover ups, and follow state/federal laws on reporting abuse, I think we’d see a lot let calls for abandoning Churches. But I completely agree, we do need to clean house.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
One other thought on Charles Schmitt and another similarity with SGM/CLC was the nepotism. With Immanuels having a few other family members on payroll and in positions of power I am sure is a factor in allowing Schmitt’s sin and hypocrisy to exist for the 35 years the church’s existence. With Covenant Life Church/Sovereign Grace Ministries it was Mahaney having two brother in laws that were on staff.
Just another example that one needs to be leery when you see a lot of nepotism in a group.
Maryland girl; Wheat and tares. Sinful men, sinful women; they are the congregants and leadership of all churches are they not?
True, and unfortunately it’s the tares making headlines.
Does someone have online confirmation Charles Schmitt is starting another church?
No online info but he used the church mailing list to send out a letter and people can sign up to receive a newsletter to keep up with what the Schmitt are doing. I did not sign up. I was very offended that he had my mailing address when he was told to have nothing to do with the church. It shows what a desperate man he is for the acceptance of others.
Hi Everybody, I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving. We do have so much to be thankful for.
Maryland Girl, I wanted to say your post on 11/22 was excellent. Bad experiences do not change biblical truth. A rotten father or mother or husband or wife does not change God’s design of marriage and family. And a wicked church leader does not change what we see in the NT about the gathering with elders, deacons, pastors and teachers, etc, and the many membered body.
I can understand people often need to pull back for a while, heal up, and think about any warning signs they missed that contributed to the tragic ordeal. I am reminded of 1 Cor 11:17 where Paul says “Your meetings do more harm than good”. It is good to ask God for wisdom and discernment to not repeat our mistakes. (I am referring to adults of course. Little kids abused and mistreated by church leaders or older Christians share zero responsibility at all for it.)
But some of these injured people seem to dismiss the clear teachings of scripture. I hope they can get past the pain and trust that what God designed is for our good, even if all of us fall short in many ways. There are decent churches out there.
Digressing from that web site you mentioned, I looked up Dotty Schmitt and read some blurbs about her prophetic ministry at conferences, and her books. I would have to say that everybody at IC who thought this/she was from the Holy Spirit is lacking in discernment. That whole mentality of the fresh new now anointed wave of God Dotty was bringing is deception.
I know God sends time of great refreshing and renewal, and we had the Reformation, “Great awakening 1 & 2”, and times of revival all over the globe- Russia post 1990, China, S Korea, Africa, etc. But this modern charismatic prophetic superiority isn’t it. IC wasn’t on the cutting edge, or special or better, or more anointed than the rest of Christianity. That’s all a lie. I find myself sitting here thinking about to explain what I mean better, and lay out a biblical foundation for my comment, but it is just too much to go into now. Suffice it to say that SGM and being in the best group ever in 2,000 years, “doing it right” better than everybody else, was my eye opener to a certain arrogant spirit of deception that also predominated in DS and no doubt IC in general.
Here is Immanuel’s statement about Schmitt:
http://www.immanuels.org/images/PDF/Website-Disclosure-Statement—Complete-with-Pastor-Mikes-Intro.pdf
Immanuel’s Church is a charismatic church. The people that are drawn to a church like that believe that the things you read in the NT are still possible today, ie healing, prophecy, seeing God confirm preaching with other miracles, etc. However, Charles and Dottie Schmitt were charismatic without exercising any discernment, and they were revival chasers. They were a part of the Jesus movement of the 70s, they were always trying to relive the glory days of those years, always talking about historical revivals, and they were always craving a new move of God to happen today. But they could never recognize the difference between a real revival, where the gospel is preached, people receive salvation, people are healed, and lives are notably changed, with a false revival where bizarre manifestations take place and are attributed to God. They wanted God to show up in a meeting and do whatever, however bizarre, even if there was no precedent in scripture for it, they didn’t care, they would be happy. They were always inviting pastors associated with the Brownsville revival, the Toronto blessing, or some other so called revival to speak. They encouraged the youth to go to IHOP in Kansas City, and they were always sharing false prophecies from the Elijah List with the congregation. Over the years I witnessed a lot of strange stuff at church, all things they would say were manifestations of the Holy Spirit. People shaking uncontrollably, screaming randomly, people unable to stand up (because the Holy Spirit was was so heavy on them), people laughing uncontrollably, and other completely unbiblical occurrences. Even though I loved IC and the people there, this was the reason I could never go back. They were deep in deception, it was definitely from the top down, and everyone as far as I could tell thought it was normal. You would never want to bring a visitor, especially an unbeliever, because it would freak them out. I sincerely wish all of the people who have stayed at Immanuel’s well, but I also hope that the new leadership is able to lead the church away from all of that false charismatic craziness. It was unfruitful and not of God at all.
I wonder if Charles and Dottie Schmitt will be what Jesus talked about here?
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers
Matthew 7:21-22
I’m absolutely the Lord will sort it out; I don’t need to. In fact, I’m pretty sure God has not assigned us humans that task.
I am sure the Lord will. My point is that Schmitt’s behavior sure seems to remind me of what Jesus talked about in Matthew 7:21-22.
Either that or perhaps II Timothy 3:7
always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
M.G…..
Years ago when John Wimber kicked Toronto out of Vineyard after strong appeals to be scriptural, at some point he made the comment to the effect that 10 years ago if people made these strange manifestations they would try to cast a demon out, and now they were claiming it was the Holy Spirit.
IC and its leadership were obviously in deep spiritual deception totally apart from Charles and his boys. I know many many people such as myself who also believe all of the gifts in Acts and Corinthians can still happen today, but what you describe is not it. Glad God opened your eyes and you got out.
actually, i think God has put sorting some of this out in our hands. Obviously He will sort it out at the end of the age when he sends the angels to gather the elect and throw the evildoers into the fire and separate the wheat from the tares. “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. ” Matthew 13. That we dont sort out what we can according to His Word is lamentable. God gave mankind authority on the earth but especially in the church we should behave like we lived in the kingdom of God where nothing evil is allowed. I COr 6:9/10. We are the gatekeepers in some very real sense.
The members of IC have every single obligation to see this man does not destroy the lives of any more young men. He has had victims enter into terribly destructive livestyles, victims that committed suicide, victims that themselves became predators, victims whose weddings ended. This is not a victimless crime. People of IC, you have knowledge and with knowledge comes responsibility.
Do whatever is necessary to see this man is never alone with men young or old. These are lives that are lost. Nobody gets past it.
just saying….wow, yes, they do have every obligation to help the victims. if you know the specifics, how many other people know the specifics and why aren’t these poor folks being helped to come forward as a group? IS the barrier of evil–of shame and of wreckage too great? and if it is, all the more to stop it. God is watching all this.
You can’t ask somebody who was seduced to come forward, talk about it openly, be forced to possibly be in the same room with the perp, and have to relive the events again and again and talk about it before law enforcement and courts. It can take years to get past, if ever. It isn’t up to them; the people/pastors who knew need to do whatever needs to be done.
Having said that, I know a guy in law enforcement in this area and they are so busy beyond belief with young kids (5,7, even 2) that older ones like say 16 don’t usually make it onto the radar. CS had a lot of adult boys, or close to legal adult, and whatever we might understand about how evil and perversion work, in the eyes of the law they consented. I happen to think that the older ones were truly victims but also truly responsible, and they need whatever help they can to find out why they went along and to deal with whatever inside their soul left them so vulnerable to CS manipulation. This is what we had to process with SGM. It does no good to talk about a cult or a wicked leader if you don’t deal with whatever holes in your soul left you open to the deception and control and legalism.
IC can offer to pay for counseling for any of them who want it. Counseling is expensive generally. Some places like Harvest (mainly to gays) in Philly do it for free or reduced rates, but even Christian counselors are 95-120/hr. Why hasn’t IC already offered at least two free years of counseling to any victim who asks? Isn’t this a basic step of care, love, and restitution? Why didn’t SGM do this for the sex abuse families? ( rhetorical question, I have my own opinion about the answer).
If this ends up in court, the fact that leaders knew and covered up and let it keep happening would mean huge payouts. Something similar happened with the Mormons a while back and the girls were awarded 2 million each IIRC. IC would go bankrupt (is that a bad thing? Based on what has been posted, no).
Why do you think SGM was so tight lipped and evasive and told lies and half truths? Money, not just reputation. The payouts if a victim wins can be prohibitive for any organization.
Sickening to the core. I wish they were fined by the courts out of existence. I think that would be to the glory of God!
Sayitsnotso said:
Drew said:
When I agreed with Drew I was agreeing that in the final judgment (such as the passage I quoted where Jesus said He will tell some he never knew them) Drew is correct that at final Judgement it will be God to sort it out.
In the present we need to be aware of wolves coming in and men who distort the truth to get people to follow them and Christ. In Acts 20 Paul warned of this to followers of Jesus for 2 years. Charles Schmitt has proven over many years to be a wolf. Others like C.J. Mahaney apparently have distorted the truth to get men to follow them vs. Christ.
Larry Tomczak should tell what he knows about Charles Schmitt. His “reconciliation” with him in the mid 2000’s communicated to both churches that Charles was truly not doing the things that were thought. Tomczak was there during his time at CLC. Larry – please tell what you know so victims don’t have to.
I thought this statement that Savannah Guthrie made about Matt Lauer’s recent sexual harassment allegations were quite insightful:
At least Savannah Guthrie (the show’s co-host) didn’t try and deny this allegation that now Lauer is even admitting there is at least some truth to. She did point out how hard it was reconciling Matt Lauer’s behavior with her love for Lauer.
It can be hard to reconcile when you have love or admiration say for a leader to then reconcile their bad behavior. People assume that the persona someone puts on speaking is how this person really is.
Examples are with Charles Schmitt and his long history of molesting younger men in churches he was leading perhaps with some seeing his gifted speaking and teaching ability. A similar examples is with C.J. Mahaney with all of his exposed hypocrisy and sin.
Josh Harris in an new ted talk
Strong Enough to be wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2kV4ngi7J4&app=desktop
When I heard Savannah Guthrie’s comment, I said she just described my exact feelings about Charles Schmitt and Dottie as well. I know it’s true. The facts are what they are. But I never saw that monster that’s being described, and it’s hard to believe that the person I saw was also the same person preying on younger men in our congregation. I don’t want them to be the same person, but they are. But I like that she was honest about her struggle. She didn’t just come to Lauer’s defense because they’re friends. She accepted reality despite the pain.
Maryland Girl
One explanation that explains why it is so hard to want to change your opinion about someone is called “confirmation bias.” If you Google this concept it is quite interesting. This theory says that you basically listen and hear things that support what you already believe.
It is something that everyone should be aware of.
LancasterCaster
Thanks for sharing Josh Harris’s video. It was interesting to listen to. It was especially interesting how Josh Harris is finding a group of people upset that he is questioning his book and concepts though really not surprising with at least some homeschooling parents using this book as a method of control.
I found this comment someone left about Josh Harris’s Ted Talk quite interesting:
Ooops Last two paragraphs of my last comment were my words and not the comment left about the TED Talk.
So there’s people who hate Josh Harris. Probably says more about them then it does about Josh Harris. I’m a little concerned that SGMsurvivors has contributed towards the hate.
It was in the recommendation that Immanuel’s reach out to the victims, at least the ones they knew about , but I don’t know if that has happened.
From Galatians 101 – Does anyone know if any of the named IC executive pastoral staff whose employment was terminated have
applied for remployment pastor positions and is IC making a concerted effort to reach out to CS victims?
Drew
I am not sure how you are interpreting someone telling what they think is the history of Josh Harris writing his “kissing dating goodbye” book as being “hate.” It is quite possible that Josh’s parents had a lot to do with the book and its promotion.
Using the word “hate” sounds like how some have used the “gossip” or “slander” card to try and shut down discussion.
Oh Drew – that’s such a tired argument. We’ve been through it time and time again. We don’t hate anyone – we just call ’em like we see ’em.
I have to agree with Drew on this one. Josh Harris stepped up to the plate and defended victims from CJ and backed it up with his career and reputation. As far as I know, he’s the only person to ever do so and survive. I credit that to the open member’s meeting. Otherwise, Josh Harris would have disappeared suddenly behind closed doors with a confidentiality agreement and a severance package in order to eat the next week. By confronting CJ publicly, he provided safety for everyone who has ever been threatened in a back room.
For some reason, even though the leaders of CLC most guilty of spiritual abuse moved on to Louisville, this blog continued to fixate on CLC and Josh Harris and really failed to equate abuse with SGM rather than CLC. Josh Harris, boy celebrity, took a fall for us. And, it was a big one. And, I am grateful. Josh Harris never had the arrogant pretentious narcissistic thing going on. He listened to people big and small. He treated people equally. He sought to do the right thing. There’s just no reason he should have been left to the take the fall for leaders that emotionally and spiritually abused people when Josh was a child. And they should have never have left him there to deal with their sin.
I know Steve240 feels it ruined his love life and that’s a legitimate concern. I get that. That’s fine.
“We don’t hate anyone – we just call ’em like we see ’em.” Guy
_______
And I just call ’em like I see ’em.
Goes both ways right? Drew
just saying
You do have some points about Josh Harris standing up and questioning Mahaney and the others. As I said before it was easier for Josh Harris to criticize and point out issues with something he didn’t create (SGM & CLC) vs. his “kissing dating goodbye” that he at least championed.