Hey there
September 11, 2017 in Sovereign Grace Ministries, Sovgracemin
Guy here –
I’ll bet you thought I was dead and buried, didn’t you :). Nope. Just creating a new post because the comments are getting too large.
Hope everyone is doing well. Perhaps we can all play catch up soon?
© 2017 – 2018, Kris. All rights reserved.
Actually it has affected a number of people’s “love life” including those at CLC. At CLC you at least use to see a large number of older singles that aren’t married that I am sure KDG was a significant cause of. After a number of years Josh Harris may even finally able to see that or perhaps he has but due to being the author and “champion” of this philosophy wasn’t able to admit earlier.
I don’t agree that comments on this site about Josh Harris are expressions of “hate.” Many are critical, but he has not been treated in the same way as other SGM leaders, and he has been shown sympathy. And I would say that the people who attended CLC and knew Josh (or at least, sat for his teaching and saw him regularly) are in a position to know something of what they speak. Many of the comments on this site are from people who actually interacted with Josh.
Do their comments say more about them than about Josh? Maybe. Or maybe not. But randomly suggesting so sounds like something the pastors would say when criticized….it was a very useful technique for keeping people quiet, and for deflecting any responsibility to examine what was said for it’s own value.
I’ve been giving some thought to the OT history where the phrase “but the high places were not removed” occurred regularly. The high places were the altars to pagan Gods in the land Israel conquered. Sometimes they were places of child sacrifice.
There was a long string of Kings in the northern and southern kingdoms, and you’d get these terrible kings and then one who the bible called righteous. He would clean up the Temple and offer sacrifices and try to obey God. Jehoshaphat (1 Kgs 22:43), Jehoash (2 Kgs 12:3), Azariah (15:3–4), and Jothan (15:34–35) for example. But the high places were not removed.
There were two that did tear down the high places- Hezekiah and Josiah. They instituted major reform in Israel.
To apply this to this blog, what I think is happening is that some of us look at somebody who tries to usher in some reform and we see them as a good guy. I look at Josh and I see a guy who openly said the entire denomination had been legalistic, and tried to make some reforms. Others look at Josh and see high places that are not removed, at least not adequately in their opinion (ie, IKDG). Some people look at Detwiler and they see a good guy going after SGM corruption. I look at him and see a guy who refuses to tear down the high places (leader worship, control, and the entire SGM climate he helped facilitate).
Everybody is right. Josh and Brent are not what they were say 15 or 20 years ago. You can look at them and see something good. But on the other hand, have they really torn down the “high places”? Both sides here are seeing something true. Steve is right and just saying is right.
To carry it further, there is all kinds of good stuff in many “big dogs” of say the Gospel Coalition. But have they torn down the high places? I don’t think so.
What I keep coming back to is that I have to tear down the high places in my own life. I have to seek God about any place where I have a foot in this pagan fallen world, or in any of the church related errors of my past. It isn’t enough to make some reforms and some changes, we need to destroy our high places, whatever they may be. We need to be ruthless with ourselves.
PDI
” It isn’t enough to make some reforms and some changes, we need to destroy our high places, whatever they may be. We need to be ruthless with ourselves.”
_______
Perish the thought – much easier to be ruthless with others. smile
You’re gonna kill the “discernment” blog industry with that attitude.
5YearsinPDI
Good comment. That was always sad reading about some of the kings of Israel who did a lot of good and turned from sin but still neglected to remove the high places. Sadly it wasn’t until Josiah that the sins of Jeroboam (king right after Solomon) were eliminated.
Again it is easier to criticize and point out issues with something you don’t have as much invested in or perhaps you didn’t start than something you championed.
One significant difference between Josh Harris and most if not all of the other top CLC/SGM Leaders was that the other leaders chose to get into what they became involved in. On the other hand Josh Harris was born into a lot of what he espoused for quite a while including his teaching on “kissing dating goodbye.” Josh Harris didn’t even have a time like going away to college where he could get out from under his parents and the homeschooling culture to think for himself. It is interesting that he has been trying to attempt to do this now.
It’s sad that so many people feel like their love lives were ruined by Joshua Harris’ book. I read his books when they came out years ago, but I thought the overall point of not casually dating a bunch of people, then having a bunch of breakups and broken hearts seemed like a good overall goal to me.
I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been told I should have dated a guy just to learn what I like in a relationship, just to gain life experience, or to enjoy having someone pay for my dinner or movies. And I kept trying to tell people, yeah, I’d be going on more dates and would have had more boyfriends, but for what? I eventually would have broken up with those guys, and I was trying to spare them unnecessary pain. But I guess if people felt like like God needed to shine a light on someone before asking them out or accepting a date, then that would be an issue. I’m just saying, I see room for reforms, but life before IKDG wasn’t all rosie either. Hopefully the church can find a healthy space in the middle.
Maryland Girl
One thing that I point out in my blog on IKDG is that Josh Harris never really defined what he was “kissing goodbye” and thus it lead to a lot of confusion. “Dating” can mean exclusively seeing someone for a period of time or just casually going out with someone. I am not sure you have to exclusively date and then break up to learn about relating with the opposite sex.
https://ikdg.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/what-is-%E2%80%9Cdating%E2%80%9D-and-what-did-harris-supposedly-%E2%80%9Ckiss-goodbye%E2%80%9D/
Listening to later messages Josh Harris admitted what he was really “kissing goodbye” as I point out on the above link which was . What was sad is that Josh Harris never clarified this point on his blog for whatever reason which was very disappointing.
The title of my blog asks if “kissing dating goodbye” is wisdom or foolishness and I think it has both. What was sad that so many that promoted Harris’s book (including Harris himself) couldn’t or wouldn’t see the foolish aspects and make adjustments to find “the healthy space in the middle” that you describe.
My experience has been that where people teach “kissing dating goodbye” that singles learn how to avoid relating vs. learning how to properly relate. A book I would recommend is “Courtship In Crisis” that talks about the “failed experiment” of “courtship” by someone who use to be a proponent of courtship.
http://www.thomasumstattd.com/books/courtship-in-crisis/
The policies on dating all over the charismatic world began decades before Josh Harris during the early days of the Shepherding Movement. Most of the parents of young people affected by IKDG also did not date as young people. I don’t remember any time from the beginning of SGM that singles were casually dating. Nor were most charismatic Christians dating during their college years all over the country due to the influence of the Shepherding Movement and ministries such as Maranatha which later adopted Derek Prince’s book “God is a Matchmaker”. Charismatic leaders everywhere were influenced by Maranatha in their younger years and many of their techniques such as animated preaching and rock concert worship trace back to Maranatha. Same for policies on purity and dating and accountability.
Although Josh Harris wrote a book for the second generation of charismatics who were primarily homeschooled, he was merely explaining practices that had been going on for a couple decades.
It was just not something new. He was young and popular and he told the next generation to stop getting involved sexually with every girl in the youth group as it doesn’t lend itself to unity in the church.
But, it was nothing new.
Among my children’s friends (they were teens when IKDG came out) there was not one parent who had practiced the whole IKDG when they themselves were young. Everyone had dated in the traditional sense.
I haven’t followed this site in a very long time, and was happy to see it is still here. My wife and I are starting to look for another church, and I came back here to remind myself of what to avoid. We found one that we kind of like, but I am hyper-sensitive to charismatic well spoken leaders these days. We shall see.
Anyway, it seems that ‘I Kissed Dating Goodbye’ is the topic of the day. When I was a member of Covenant Life, that book had the weight of scripture. Argue if you will…but if you were there and you got outside protocol you heard about it. In fact, I had a rule – I never dated anyone from CLC. It was too much trouble. Interestingly enough, I met my wife there, and she had pretty much the same philosophy, which gave us our first piece of common ground :-)
So how did it get that way? ‘Just Saying’ hit it on the head. The whole Shepherding Movement had a huge amount of momentum before Harris showed up. He just managed to turn part of it into a successful brand name.
But then, how did THAT happen? Well folks, that one would be on us. We SURRENDERED control of our own lives to people who would willing hide criminal behavior (example – Layman & Boisvert “failing” to report Morales) while simultaneously demonizing anything and everything beyond the patented CLC Courtship Ritual. And don’t forget the incessant sin-sniffing…they seemed to enjoy juicy little tidbits they could report up the chain.
When I threw away my little courtship manuals, re-read “How To Win Friends And Influence People”, I started developing my under-developed social skill, which built my social network that ultimately connected me to my wife. I know some people are still hurting because of this I Kissed Dating Goodbye nonsense, but everyone who survived this stuff can learn and change. Don’t spend another day enslaved by the rules of those who ran a franchise to serve themselves and not you.
Just Saying said
As I said earlier CLC practiced “kissing dating goodbye” almost from the beginning especially in 1978 when Larry Tomczak came out with a book titled “Straightforward.” Thus I agree that what Josh Harris promoted or “championed” wasn’t something new but his book really made an impact. As others have pointed out I am sure a big reason for this impact was it was a young person pushing this concept.
One thing I have seen with those who promote “kissing dating goodbye” is that apparently in order to “sell” KDG they want to exaggerate the problems with dating or state it always or almost always leads to problems. Thus they create what many would call a “false dilemma.” It goes basically along this line dating has so many problems and “defects” that lead to all these problems that the only option is to “kiss it goodbye” and practice courtship.
They won’t admit or perhaps can’t even see that some people can date with integrity.
One thing I will say about Josh Harris that I admire is that when the documents came out exposing all the sin and hypocrisy within the leadership of SGM that Josh set up times for people to come in and pray and called for people doing that. You didn’t hear that from anyone else in SGM Leadership. With the rest of SGM Leadership it was (and perhaps still is) that they lost the connection, dependence and relationship with God.
Since the beginning of CLC (1977), dating was a big topic because we were mostly young and single. Our rules and regulations came from our relationship with Maranatha Ministries. Larry was friends with Bob Weiner and drew from Bob’s experience with dating issues. We had our hands in everything….ugh! When I think of some of the old dating stories, I cringe.
Steve posts:
“With the rest of SGM Leadership it was (and perhaps still is) that they lost the connection, dependence and relationship with God.”
I never actually read all 900 pages of the docs. Just a few sections like the blackmail. But I recall people posting that they looked in vain through 900 pages for the apostolic team praying about all the things in the docs. Not a single written record from Brent’s long endeavors, about the men down on their knees asking God to grant wisdom and understanding, to work in the churches and help them with their apostolic giftings (their terms, not mine) to love and serve the sheep. No prayer for people “under” them. 900 pages of records of A team meetings and no prayer.
I think you hit the nail on the head. They- and we- left dependency on God for rules and hoops to jump through so life would go well and kids would grow up perfect. Personal relationship with God in dependency on Him, with prayer as a high priority, was traded for legalism. My first clue was reading Mahaney’s chapter in Why Small Groups, and there was not a single word about prayer in our assembling together mid week. I don’t doubt there was some prayer going on with the leaders, but it was obviously marginalized.
This was perhaps the single most destructive thing about SGM, to trade prayer for the Lord to work in a powerful way by the Holy Spirit in lives, for rules. Individual walks with the Holy Spirit traded for leaders in control of your life. And to his credit Harris started to see this and say this before he left. It may take years for him to fully come out, and to be fair, we do need to walk in holiness and it is good to talk about what holiness looks like for singles. But grasping how dependent we are on God, and praying to Him, has got to be so primary.
5YearsinPDI
I was glad that you were able to see and agree with my sad assessment of SGM. Sadly I think a lot of groups as they get larger and longer in existence tend to gravitate this way. I am sure SGM Leadership to this day thinks they are doing the right thing.
Eriegirl
Maranatha’s dating policy for quite a while was what they called a “dating revelation” and was much stricter than what CLC imposed in the earlier years though similar in control being given to leadership.
I would definitely say that my single life was horrendously affected by KDG. The SGM church I attended at the time also considered it to be scripture from God. It was pretty dystopian being a single in that church as it seemed talking scripture with the opposite sex equated to courtship. It was really odd and I admit that I am still damaged by some of the cognitive dissonance experienced during my time there. Forgiveness for many of the things done to me there is a daily effort.
Hearing that Josh plans to somehow start promoting KDG again is pretty disheartening. He should just get a normal job and support his family without further damage to others
KAZ said:
I don’t believe Josh Harris is now promoting KDG. If anything Josh Harris is slowly reconsidering IKDG and even has a youtube video about this. Josh still isn’t that vocal and isn’t saying much but at least he isn’t promoting this concept. My guess is that Josh sees a lot of the problems with KDG but has a hard time criticizing the concept since it was what brought him to prominence.
Thanks for your input on KDG. My experience was that if you wanted to go out one on one with single sister it was almost as if you were asking her to marry you or something.
It has been quiet here the last few weeks. I hope everyone has a nice Christmas and Happy New Year.
Let’s all remember the reason for the season.
@ Steve240
I was referring to this http://www.isurvivedikdg.com and some of his FB posts. If I knew I would not be on film I would want ask him if he was doing this the help the people damaged by his books or just to get his name back out there ?
I had to laugh at your description of talking to a single sister …. for me in those situations I even received a couple of formal letters from parents stating their daughter was not interested in a relationship. That is when I started to sit by myself and just walk to church. I laugh about it now but wow it’s really confusing and painful
KAZ said:
Good point and I kind of wonder the same thing. He seems to be dragging what he is doing for quite a while without saying a whole lot but with promise of more to come. Thus you might be right.
Josh Harris’s “about” web page makes no reference to him being a Christian author speaker or former pastor but offering his services for communication projects. Thus perhaps Josh is using this documentary about his book was a way to help launch his new career.
That is a new one. I hadn’t heard of that before where the parents send a formal letter indicating their daughter has no interest. Couldn’t the father contact you in person or the phone and let you know this at least? I wonder in these cases if it was really the daughter who had no interest or the parents telling the daughter that she was to have no interest?
Again Merry Christmas to everyone.
Hi everyone…haven’t posted any comments in a long time. I think of you all often and remain so grateful for the help I received here to process my SG experience and to pursue the healing I needed.
I saw this article online this morning and thought of the community here. I’m praying that the tide that is turning in exposing sexual abuse in our country will bring sweeping national change in the legislation of statute of limitations.
God bless you all and may everything that happens in 2018 bring us closer to the LORD and more like Him. To all who comment here…thanks for keeping this site and the awareness going.
~LetMyPeopleGo
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sexual-misconduct/sex-misconduct-cases-spur-rethinking-statute-limitations-n822286?cid=par-xfinity_20171226
LetMyPeopleGo
Good to hear from you.
Interesting link that you shared that talks about modifying existing statute of limitations. As I recall the reason the lawsuit against SGM was dismissed was due to statute of limitations. Leaders in SGM were quick to point this dismissal but weren’t that open that it was dismissed due to the statute of limitations or basically a technicality. The courts weren’t saying the lawsuit didn’t have any merit but due to this statute of limitations it had to be dismissed.
It was sad to see this obfuscation.
Full circle … CJ Is the pope.
https://www.apnews.com/77f4a7e9779940a48e2347c852516d3c/Pope-shocks-Chile-by-accusing-sex-abuse-victims-of-slander
Read it (again) and weep.
http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/970485/22689936/1368570306447/second+amended+sgm+lawsuit.pdf?token=2EfvfHkAQmFWGlKIFghBhtDZtjw%3D
@ Steve240
“That is a new one. I hadn’t heard of that before where the parents send a formal letter indicating their daughter has no interest. Couldn’t the father contact you in person or the phone and let you know this at least? I wonder in these cases if it was really the daughter who had no interest or the parents telling the daughter that she was to have no interest? “
Both letters were by email. One was full of SG speak and some of the messed up doctrine plus at the time I had no idea who her father really was on planet SG. I did meet up with her a few weeks later unknown to the parents and she was very apologetic for her father.
The other was from some of another womans male relatives as her father had already passed. This one was full of accusations, lies and lots of condemnation. I did respond with full disclosure but because of my status on planet SG it was clear that was it going nowhere. In this case as well we did say our goodbyes but unless she reads this post she probably has no idea why I stopped communicating.
I understand now from reading blogs like this why some people on planet SG reacted the way they do. Of course when I was attending my SG church I really thought I was the issue and that I was reading scripture incorrectly ……. Strange days for single guys for sure LOL I am still in shock as to the definition of courtship or “date” on planet SG. As a mechanic I would “help” people with repairs and in one case I gave one single woman one of my trucks for her to use while I did a large repair on her car. The next Sunday I was approached by two men who asked if I knew how young she was and was my attraction to her Godly or lustful AHHAHAHA I laugh about it now but back then it was more than difficult.
I noticed that the president of Michigan State University is resigning after the doctor who sexually abused the Olympic athletes was sentenced. After the Jerry Sandusky scandal at Penn State some of the higher ups did some time in jail or prison. Yet nothing happened to anyone at CovLife or SGM after the Nathan Morales conviction. They knew what was happening and did nothing. Shameful
KAZ, oh my heavens, how insane. And I know what you mean about now you can see things and laugh, but when you were IN SGM, if what a very difficult thing to deal with. I had situations that now I’d just look at the people and wonder what their problem was, but at the time, certain things were nearly devastating and I’d wind up questioning myself, my faith, whatever for days.
Seven months after we left our SGM church (read: we got a letter “inviting” us to go find another church), my family went through a real crisis, and I remember thinking that at least I wasn’t going through it while still in our church or it would have made things that much more tough. How sad to go through a truly tough time, and instead of the church you were an active part of for 15 years, being a comfort and support, it would have made things even worse. I was shattered when we were unceremoniously kicked out, but so terribly grateful that we were still in when the real rubber of life hit our road.
Opps, that last line was meant to read, “but so terribly grateful that we were NOT still in when the real rubber of life hit our road.”
KAZ Few
Thanks for the clarification.
Has anyone seen SGC’s latest financial statement? It is that time of year or even past that time for this statement to come out.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/january-february/rise-of-reformed-charismatics.html?utm_source=ctdirect-html&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=9455823&utm_content=560458670&utm_campaign=email
Christianity Today article on Reformed Charismatics. I don’t subscribe so I could only read a part.
So who do they feature? Who is the new face of Reformed Charismatics?
Advance, and the global pastors were hanging together at CLC. You can’t make this stuff up.
And for the 2018 Conference in CA, who is the lead speaker? You guessed it- PJ himself.
http://www.advancemovement.com/event/1067949-2018-10-24-2018-advance-north-america-conference/
The same PJ who had no knowledge of his Dad’s wickedness….until he was confronted with having been there, and he started to get some memories back, gradually after a few lies….oops, make that denials due to memory loss.
(If he has ever admitted to his dishonesty, please let me know)
Ironically I consider myself a Reformed continuationist….and I know many like myself, but we want no part of these celebrities anymore.
You wonder what it will take for God to clean up the church. It makes me sick to watch.
Kaz…..
I have to admit that was pretty funny to read, although I am sure it wasn’t at the time for you.
They had a weird focus on indwelling sin. We are sinners until we die, and need to be aware of that and careful in our lives, but, we also have the holy spirit and a new heart and a new spirit and are born again. There is all sorts of good motivating us, thank God, not just idols in our heart. You wonder if they ever understood what happens in regeneration (being born again) and how the Holy Spirit influences our motivations and heart for the Lord. It was part of the cult thing in SGM….as “Sopy” said, they weaponized the doctrine of indwelling sin.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/january-web-only/rachael-denhollander-larry-nassar-forgiveness-gospel.html
Most impactful quote from the interview!
The ultimate reality that I live with is that if my abuser had been Nathaniel Morales instead of Larry Nassar, if my enabler had been [an SGM pastor] instead of [MSU gymnastics coach] Kathie Klages, if the organization I was speaking out against was Sovereign Grace under the leadership of [Mahaney] instead of MSU under the leadership of Lou Anna Simon, I would not only not have evangelical support, I would be actively vilified and lied about by every single evangelical leader out there. The only reason I am able to have the support of these leaders now is because I am speaking out against an organization not within their community. Had I been so unfortunate so as to have been victimized by someone in their community, someone in the Sovereign Grace network, I would not only have their support, I would be massively shunned. That’s the reality.
LancasterCaster
Thanks for sharing that link. I found this quite interesting that this article mentioned SGM and and Morales (one of the SGM predators) by name.
This was also included in the post:
It was interesting to see this thought that it was more faulty theology that causes mishandling of sex abuse cases.
I remember reading where Robin Boisvert (one of the pastors at Covenant Life Church) chose to confront Nathan Morales about his sin and repentance rather than reporting Morales’ actions to law enforcement.
I was just coming on here to share the article that LancasterCaster shared. Thank you, Friend, whoever you are!
This article and her quotes make me queasy. Praise God for people like her who are willing to speak out!!! How horribly tragic all of this is. This is one of the quotes from the article that gave me a sad moment:
(In referring to Sovereign Grace Churches): When you support an organization that has been embroiled in a horrific 30-year cover-up of sexual assault, you know what that communicates to the world and what it communicates to other enablers and abusers within your own church. It’s very obvious that they are not going to speak out against sexual assault when it’s in their own community.
And the final 2 paragraphs of the article:
First, the gospel of Jesus Christ does not need your protection. It defies the gospel of Christ when we do not call out abuse and enable abuse in our own church. Jesus Christ does not need your protection; he needs your obedience. Obedience means that you pursue justice and you stand up for the oppressed and you stand up for the victimized, and you tell the truth about the evil of sexual assault and the evil of covering it up.
Second, that obedience costs. It means that you will have to speak out against your own community. It will cost to stand up for the oppressed, and it should. If we’re not speaking out when it costs, then it doesn’t matter to us enough.
And, what is the price in a purity/virginity culture for victims to come forward? Nobody will marry you? I think the motives in SGM were to protect the victims from embarrassment. Yet, that embarrassment comes from a culture that idolizes purity to the extent a victim of assault is “marked” as impure.
just saying: “I think the motives in SGM were to protect the victims from embarrassment.”
Really? What evidence have you seen for that?
It seems to me the motives in SGM were to protect SGM’s reputation and maintain control of the process and narrative, protect the leaders from the fallout from their abysmal handling of the many incidents, prevail in lawsuits and hide behind them as an excuse not to be transparent (remember how CLC promised they were eager to talk as soon as the lawsuits were over? when did that happen?), force the victims to forgive their abusers and thus maintain their authority over them, etc.
I think they cared way more about those things than about the victims.
I wonder what would have happened had these molestors had been molesting leaders children or children of even some of the more powerful families in Sovereign Grace Churches? Would Sovereign Grace leadership had swept this under the rug had that been the case?
Anyone know if Brent Detweiler shut down his blog. I try to log on just a bit ago and was unable to access his site.
just saying said, “I think the motives in SGM were to protect the victims from embarrassment.”
How did SGM’s humiliating, belittling treatment of the victims spare them embarrassment? They were condemned, shamed, gossiped about. No, I’m sorry but I don’t see, given their behavior, one could come to that conclusion.
I was going to quote bendeni above, but then realized I was copying the whole post as it was so excellent! Well said, bendeni!
Lover of CLC: Brent’s site was up this morning (I check it daily). It looks like some kind of problem with Squarespace (where he hosts it)… it’s redirecting in a loop. The domain is still there.
Stunned: Thanks.
Steve240: It’s an interesting question. On the one hand, the rules have always been different for SGM royalty (e.g. counsel wives they must return to their husbands no matter what, but Bob Kauflin’s daughter Megan divorces Kerrin and quickly remarries when Kerrin attempts to leave the fold). But I wonder if the leadership would have been transparent even if it was one of their own kids. I suspect they still would have hushed it up and tried to protect SGM’s rep no matter what.
Don’t miss this response by Rachael Denhollander to Prater’s disgusting press release:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/rachael-denhollander/public-response-to-sovereign-grace-churches/1694664773947169/
As I commented on TWW: These men can define “covered up” to suit their need to protest their innocence, but the bottom line is: They kept it in-house and didn’t report, they subjected the victims to a horrible process rather than supporting them, and they have never repented of what they did. They cared more about keeping their organization than they did about the victims. Denhollander lays it all out clearly and succinctly.
Was just coming here to post this!
That is a thoughtful well written article. But I fear that once again it makes the SGM problem primarily that of not going to the cops, and then covering up that failure.
We had dinner with a pastor friend not all that long ago, and he knew very little, but he knew enough to comment that until recently almost no church called the cops and why are people making it such a big deal. Sin and salvation and sanctification were seen as the purview of the church pastors and elders, and hopefully dealt with properly in such situations. My husband has commented that back in the 80/90s when some awful things happened in churches we knew of (crime) nobody even thought of calling the cops. It was seen as anti biblical to go to the secular courts instead of settling the problems within the church, ie, the Apostle Paul’s writings about why have lawsuits against Christians and it is to your shame to go to secular courts (1 Corinthians 6).
Now this guy believed us (I hope!) when we talked about the bigger SGM problems, but the point is, if there had never been a single sex abuse cover up, there would still a whole lot to talk about here when it comes to what SGM was and is, and how they operated, and various legalistic or controlling or abusive teachings and practices. You can take away every single thing related to sex abuse and the lawsuits and still have a mess of awful stories.
This article is written by somebody in the legal profession so I understand they are very concerned about the laws. But if not one single law had ever been broken, and there had never been one single legal mandate to call the cops on a sex abuser, there would still be 25-30 years of shepherding movement, top down, heavy handed, authority wrongs in SGM. (This is what I believe Detwiler still cannot grasp).
Anyway, at this point I don’t expect any change, either in SGM or in their supporters. God will sort it out one day, and I do pray that the victims get back all the “years that the locust has eaten”.
Everything 5Years said.
The tragedy about the lawsuit, in addition to the lives that were destroyed by some of the false accusations, is it mischaracterized the problems with SGM as sexual, when nothing could be further from the truth.
That there are a handful of incidents in a mega-church over 40 years with thousands of people is not just unfortunately normal, it is much safer than most schools and public environments where a full 25% of the population are assaulted in some way.
The issue with SGM wasn’t sex. But, how they mishandled sex abuse situations was merely a symptom of how they treated human beings in general. The total devaluing of God’s chosen people.
I think there’s a very real possibility these beloved men will be in hell for that. How could someone who has truly been redeemed have the arrogance to curse God’s children the way they have?
just saying said, “how they treated human beings in general.”
I agree with that. It was / is truly sad. I think you’re right in that God’s heart breaks to see children and adults treated dismissively, especially to see them treated that way in His name. :(
I’m curious about your first line. Specifically, I’m not aware of whose lives have been destroyed by false accusations. Would you mind telling me a little bit about that, please?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/02/15/this-former-gymnast-raised-an-army-to-take-on-larry-nassar-can-she-take-on-sex-abuse-in-churches-next/?utm_term=.a5354ac2d0a8
Whew.
I looked at the link to the SG statement within that article.
http://www.sovereigngrace.com/sovereign-grace-blog/post/a-response-to-allegations-against-sovereign-grace-churches
This really stood out:
“As for the “culture” charge, nothing could be further from the truth. The culture C.J. helped to create, by the grace of God, was one of loving the gospel, honoring Christ, and pursuing holiness. The church was not a perfect church, but it was a faithful, healthy, and fruitful church. Accusations that C.J. and the pastors at that time created a culture that engendered abuse or enabled abusers is not merely false, it is absurd.”
When I think of all the hundreds of people who described a culture of fear, intimidation, legalism, control, “sin sniffing”, quenching the priesthood of all believers to walk with the Holy Spirit, leader worship, leader infallibility, and so much more, you have to conclude they are blind. And so many documented lies along the way…..but not one word of apology.
I thought “just saying’s” post above was fantastic, the way it so precisely and briefly summed up the matter:
“That there are a handful of incidents in a mega-church over 40 years with thousands of people is not just unfortunately normal, it is much safer than most schools and public environments where a full 25% of the population are assaulted in some way.
The issue with SGM wasn’t sex. But, how they mishandled sex abuse situations was merely a symptom of how they treated human beings in general. The total devaluing of God’s chosen people.”
Ironically I was thinking the other day about some of the leaders who were in our church. They truly tried to love and help people. I know one got degifted and one left, and we’ve lost touch so I don’t know about the rest. So many good guys, so many hirelings, and some wolves too. It was a mix. Yes there was much good…..but SGM refuses to admit the bad or apologize.
The very fact that they required unquestioning submission to pastors, and treated any deviation from that as pride and rebellion, is like a joke in light of Emerson being caught with a harlot. So where is the heartfelt deep repentance that admits the structure breaks down with an Emerson? Can you imagine having a gut level discernment that something was “off” with Emerson but being forced to submit to him anyway? This is shepherding doctrine, and this IS the culture Mahaney upheld and enforced going all the way back to the days he spoke at conferences with the Ft Lauderdale 5. PDI/SGM was recycled 70s shepherding, that was the culture, and yet they issue statements insisting that all was healthy and fruitful.
If anything PDI/SGM was worse than Ft Lauderdale Shepherding. To use the term “apostle” and then have the apostolic authority Detwiler describes over local elders- and the way it was used to degift and control and squash good men- was worse than Shepherding. I don’t recall Mumford, Baxter, Prince, et al setting themselves up as “apostles” although I could be wrong.
You will know they have repented when they repent of shepherding movement doctrines.
Like I have said before, at this point I don’t expect any repentance from them or their supporters. I think it is time to get out and move on. Just my opinion.
test