More to Say?
February 21, 2018 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Well, Guy gave me an ultimatum this morning. Either I put up a new post, or he’s shutting down the site. He’s tired of paying the hosting and domain fees.
I can’t say I blame him. Things have been pretty dead around here. NOT because Sovereign Grace Ministries’ leadership ever fully acknowledged and took responsibility for their institutional dysfunction. To the best of my knowledge, that’s never happened on any organization-wide official scale. Yes, Covenant Life Church and several other SGM congregations around the country parted ways with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Some leaders, including Joshua Harris, did speak out and take some responsibility for SGM’s issues. C.J. Mahaney did step down as president of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
But after some cursory soul-searching back in 2012-13 or so, C.J. Mahaney and crew dispatched themselves to start a very well-funded InstaChurch in Louisville, Kentucky. New leadership was named at SGM Corporate, which also relocated to Louisville from Gaithersburg, Maryland. In late 2014, Sovereign Grace Ministries quietly rebranded itself yet again for its fourth moniker (Gathering of Believers became People of Destiny International became PDI Ministries, became Sovereign Grace Ministries), becoming Sovereign Grace Churches. Recently, Sovereign Grace Churches even doubled down on their denials of wrongdoing, apparently hoping people will believe that the dismissal of the sex abuse scandal on a technicality (the statute of limitations had run out) means the justice system officially determined that there never was any merit to ANY of the complaints made within that lawsuit.
So no, it’s not that there’s nothing left to talk about here when it comes to Sovereign Grace Churches. There is. I just haven’t had the self-discipline or motivation to crank out posts. I’ve never seen myself as some sort of crusader. I don’t actually have an ax to grind with Sovereign Grace Churches specifically. And certainly, being a more generic “watch-blogger” has never held any appeal for me. Who wants to spend their days self-importantly clucking over every perceived problem in conservative Evangelicalism?
I’m also not comfortable being an unthinking “victims’ advocate.” I’ve just never been the kind of person who can unquestioningly believe every random accusation no matter how ludicrous, even if said allegation is included in a lawsuit filing. More importantly, I’m not particularly interested in hosting a website where people feel free to spew negativity about what is literally our only comfort in life and death. For believers, there’s a vital God-mandated “baby” (the local church) in the filthy “bathwater” of Sovereign Grace Churches’ bad behavior, and recognizing problems with a particular way of doing church is definitely no excuse for ditching church altogether.
But I’m not ready quite yet to let go of this specific space, of what happened here, either. I remain convinced that a lot of the stuff here needs to remain available, particularly things like transcripts of key sermons that formed the foundation for many of SGM’s unofficial yet organization-wide cultural practices. If you read here long enough, with an even slightly open mind, I think you’ll come away with a sense of the scope and breadth of SGM’s/SGC’s issues and why the purported changes of the past few years may not be enough to address things. I mean, given their very recent denials, Sovereign Grace Churches’ leaders apparently STILL struggle mightily to own their obvious historical problems.
I’m also curious to get some sense of where Sovereign Grace Churches are today. I haven’t interacted much over the past couple of years with people currently involved in Sovereign Grace Churches, so I’m wondering about whether things have changed much, and if so, how? For instance, how has C.J. Mahaney’s departure as leader affected the organization these past 5 or so years? How is Sovereign Grace Churches’ polity different? What policies does SGC have in place to prevent the kinds of abuses that occurred prior to when the internet lifted the veil of secrecy? Has anyone ever officially acknowledged the truths of Brent Detwiler’s documents? What has been done to either refute his charges or reconcile with him?
Are changes–and more importantly, the reasons for the changes, the problems that arose and prompted the changes–discussed and explained? Or has change just been implemented with little information?
What do Sovereign Grace Churches stand for these days? How do they characterized themselves? Are they still touting themselves to be “Reformed and Charismatic”? Do they still have the prophecy microphone? Do they still believe the role of apostle exists in some form today? What do they teach about pastoral authority now? What sort of accountability is in place for pastors? Are pastors accountable to their congregations in some sort of formal way, or are they still basically only accountable to other pastors? Does SGC still plant churches? Is C.J. Mahaney’s Louisville plant self-supporting now? Are pastoral salaries disclosed to the congregation? Are church members still primarily seeking counseling from their Sovereign Grace Churches pastors? Are psychiatric drugs still subtly (and not-so-subtly) discouraged? Are members still encouraged to confront one another about perceived sins? Do small groups (called “care groups” at Covenant Life Church) still exist in the same format? Are people free to join any care/small group of their choice, or are they assigned (and then randomly reassigned) to small groups?
How do individual Sovereign Grace Churches feel about the recent statements about sexual abuse from Corporate? Is this the widespread party line, that because the 2012 lawsuit was dismissed on a technicality, Sovereign Grace Ministries was somehow vindicated and found “not guilty” of any of the allegations contained in the lawsuit? Do present-day Sovereign Grace Churches acknowledge the old unspoken social systems that gave rise to so many situations where pastors protected abusers and did not report abuse to law enforcement?
Do people feel free to ask questions of their leaders now? How do leaders respond when questioned? Are the “gossip ‘n’ slander” charges still thrown about as willy-nilly as they used to be?
Most importantly, will there ever be official corporate-wide acknowledgement of Sovereign Grace Ministries’ historical missteps and dysfunction?
What do you think?
Kris and Guy,
Thank you so much for not closing the site. As you are probably aware there are new developments and news items afoot , with at least 2 books in the works which will liberally reference this site (Brent’s book and the one I’ve been working on ).
Aside from that, and much more importantly, this site is a treasure trove of blood, sweat, and tears where others have been able to heal, gain critical insight, and find their way to freedom because of the compelling testimonials and comments shared here.
Please consider opening a Paetron account so those who would like to, can support and protect this great body of work.
Thank you both for being very useful and timely instruments in the hands of God. We know it has not been without sacrifice and heartache on your part, and for that we are ever so grateful.
I can assure you, this blog site has literally saved lives……. and continues to do so. God bless,
Balaam’s Donkey
Kris and Guy,
Thank you so much for not closing the site. As you are probably aware there are new developments and news items afoot , with at least 2 books in the works which will liberally reference this site (Brent’s book and the one I’ve been working on ).
Aside from that, and much more importantly, this site is a treasure trove of blood, sweat, and tears where others have been able to heal, gain critical insight, and find their way to freedom because of the compelling testimonials and comments shared here.
Please consider opening a Paetron account so those who would like to, can support and protect this great body of work.
Thank you both for being very useful and timely instruments in the hands of God. We know it has not been without sacrifice and heartache on your part, and for that we are ever so grateful.
I can assure you, this blog site has literally saved lives……. and continues to do so. God bless,
Balaam’s Donkey
Hi Kris,
I think Rachel Denhollander has stirred the pot. She’s a determined powerhouse who won’t likely let SGM (whatever they call themselves these days or in future iterations) run and hide.
Will they ever sincerely apologize? No.
But I predict a long- winded one with so many words that it won’t ever truly say anything of consequence. It will sound like an applofy but be a hollow statement put out by their attorneys. No hearts will feel pain, no repentance will take place, no restitution offered.
Rachel’s husband hopes for true heart repentance and change. I hope he turns out to be right.
But I’ve watched these people for 40 years and they have had ample chance and opportunity to repent, change, and demonstrate they have a heart. If they wanted to change, they would have by now.
Color me jaded.
Hi Kris
Good to see you posting. Your writing ability always amazes me. Lots of good questions.
When you said this about C.J. Mahaney:
I think if anything you were being quite generous. My take is C.J. really never really did any soul searching i.e. practice a lot of what he has taught and imposed on other SGM Leaders over the years. If C.J. really did some soul searching he quickly come to realize what it would cost him and seeing this large cost found a way to justify in his mind his actions etc. No one dared challenge the group’s pope!
Despite all that has transpired and been revealed and SGM’s basic denial of most that has been revealed I sadly don’t think SGM Leadership will ever see their sin and hypocrisy and repent. Any type of confession and repentance would have to be the result of God bringing conviction and more exposure which is always possible. From what I have seen with their history even if SGM sees that they had issues they might make some changes but will never admit their changes.
One example of not admitting issues is with disqualifying leaders whose children had issues. C.J. Mahaney’s son has had some issues over the years including pot smoking and a DUI. Sadly for a while Mahaney and others even covered up these actions (the pot smoking) apparently to keep from having to impose on Mahaney what Mahaney imposed on other SGM Leaders.
In corresponding with one former pastor who still attends an SGM church, this pastor claims that Mahaney was going and apologizing to other leaders for disqualification. You never heard anything public that I am aware of like Mahaney admitting he made an error in disqualifying leaders for children’s actions.
Since Mahaney’s son no longer has the father son/blog and thus isn’t part of the “family business” (SGM) I am choosing not to use his name.
I was wondering if maybe the finances would dry up more for SGM but looking at their latest financial statement (I posted the link for this recently in the last post) it doesn’t look like that has happened so far. Looking at this statement (I am not an accountant) it looks like their finances have stabilized vs. where they had large deficits for a few years.
In summary I don’t think there is much you can do about SGM with the exception of people exposing additional sin and hypocrisy.
And this came to my email, I used to spend many hours here and you and many on this blog gave me hope. Haven’t really been on here for years but what I gained from this community can’t be quantified. I feel like it saved my life in a way and I’ll always be thankful ❤️
Numerous bloggers appeared to make it their goal in life to sue C.J. Mahaney. Surprise – he decided it was in his best interest to not give them possible cause.
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I’m thinking you can’t have it both ways; “We just want an apology” but then sue on the basis of that apology.
[ Any lawyer worth his/her salt will tell you to “just shut up.” ]
BTW, what has become of that supposedly imminent 3rd lawsuit? I’ve always wondered if it isn’t the cost. Susan Burke might have done the first one on the expectation they would win and she’d be re-imbursed, but not the third one. If she’s a professional, she now wants her money up front. It’s easy to sue when it costs you nothing but if you actually have to dig into your pockets to pay the $500 and hour [ or more ] fee – well that puts a totally different spin on it.
It’s been more than 10 years since our family left the Chesapeake, VA church. Much had happened. When My oldest turned 18, she went out and experienced all the things the church would have kicked her out for (or at least they would had several meetings with “senior” men, decided what was to be done, and she likely would have had to agree to counseling and who knows what else. I’m gtreatful she had no desire to step foot in that church again.
The church, of course, has changed their name, and distanced themselves from CJ and anything SGM. But from what I understand, after a few weeks, it was right back to the same stuff. Maybe a little less obvious. But it stayed the same.
I recently found out that there has been another large split (appx 400 left), which began with a former senior pastor confronting the “new” senior, who’s really not “new”, he’s been senior pastor since the original split, I believe.
Afrer likely several confrontations, they left and the trickle began. It is about 1/2 the size it grew to over the years since he church officially left SGM.
I have never been to that church since originally leaving, but have first-hand knowledge of the facts stated above from folks I somethimes keep in touch with that still attend.
I feel really, truly bad for the folks that I love there. Scared to leave. Scared to stay.
Drew,
Which “bloggers” have attempted to sue CJ Mahaney?
About lawsuits…there’s evidence that apologies actually deter lawsuits.
http://www.calbarjournal.com/July2010/TopHeadlines/TH1.aspx
Kris, After re-reading my post again, I shouldn’t have said my daughter would have been “kicked out”. They didn’t do it that obviously, they would have ostrisized her even more (if that were possible, she already never fit in there). The care group leaders would have had meetings and I’m certain it would have gone to the pastors and then they would have meetings, etc.
But I really left out the best part. After my daughter’s fairly short experimental stage, she has come back to the Lord by many, many prayers (but mostly His desire to see her healed from the trauma and show her who she really is in Christ.) He also led her and her fiancé to an amazinz Methodist church that is full of His true grace. With the help of her church (that loves and accepts her as she is, and is joyous to receive her to them), she is now a different person. Still struggles with real adulthood things, but has people care for her and not just try to get her to admit her sin. (Although ptivately and with her fiancé at the time, she has repented of her “free-style love). She’s like a different person. And indeed she is! It took many years for her desire to even find a church, and…they teach the Word (!) with no additions, sin-sniffing, and just loving on her with the Truth of Who God really is to her.
After leaving SGC, we prayed so hard that the insecurities she felt as a child (as her parents we certainly lost our joy and were terribly insecure), would be reversed and the truth of her as a daughter of the King would be made real. And she now believes it and lives it. God truly has placed us all where we feel at home and loved, and can love again.
I hope this is not difficult to understand, and I would love if you could replace the “kicking out” with the truth, and add the best part, am praying will give others hope way beyond our dark experiences at SGM.
Powerful testimony of women who were not believed after being abused at New Bethany Home by the Ministry leader. (Evangelical but not related to SGM) It has always been a pattern that victims are often not believed. Our strength is in believing each other, in speaking out, and in standing together.
https://www.npr.org/2018/02/23/586096174/finding-strength-in-shared-stories-of-childhood-sexual-abuse (audio 2:51 mins)
Which “bloggers” have attempted to sue CJ Mahaney? – Kris
Other bloggers and their commenters have wanted to sue SGM and Mahaney
– I don’t remember you or “Jim” who had the other blog, encouraging lawsuits.
I’m also quite impressed by your post:
“So no, it’s not that there’s nothing left to talk about here when it comes to Sovereign Grace Churches. There is. I just haven’t had the self-discipline or motivation to crank out posts. I’ve never seen myself as some sort of crusader. I don’t actually have an ax to grind with Sovereign Grace Churches specifically. And certainly, being a more generic “watch-blogger” has never held any appeal for me. Who wants to spend their days self-importantly clucking over every perceived problem in conservative Evangelicalism?
I’m also not comfortable being an unthinking “victims’ advocate.” I’ve just never been the kind of person who can unquestioningly believe every random accusation no matter how ludicrous, even if said allegation is included in a lawsuit filing. More importantly, I’m not particularly interested in hosting a website where people feel free to spew negativity about what is literally our only comfort in life and death. For believers, there’s a vital God-mandated “baby” (the local church) in the filthy “bathwater” of Sovereign Grace Churches’ bad behavior, and recognizing problems with a particular way of doing church is definitely no excuse for ditching church altogether.”
Pam,
I agree that historically, people have been unfairly skeptical of victims’ claims. However, I’ll be honest – one of the reasons I grew a little leery of unquestioningly believing EVERY accusation was actually the original 2012 lawsuit filed by Susan Burke. I know your family was part of that lawsuit, so maybe you can straighten me out here.
Most of the claims in the lawsuit – including yours – were consistent with patterns I had observed in stories I’d already heard…but there was one that just seemed fantastical to me, the one where a plaintiff claimed to have been abused with several other kids from her children’s class at a Celebration conference. I don’t have the lawsuit in front of me right now, but from what I can remember, honestly, that portion of the complaint did not ring true for a number of reasons. First, if an entire group of kids had really been dressed up in feather boas and whatnot and photographed and molested, wouldn’t someone, anyone (a parent, another teacher, anyone) have noticed something peculiar at the time?
More to the point, secondly, after that claim was publicized, was there anyone from among the other alleged victims who came forward to corroborate this story? Surely something so bizarre would have made an impression on at least one other child’s memory…or some parent would have remembered something about their child telling them a fantastical story about getting pictures taken…or just…something. But as far as I know (and again, correct me if I’m wrong), no one else has ever made similar claims or ever come forward to support that claim from the 2012 lawsuit. Obviously, a lack of such corroboration for what would have been an event witnessed by several individuals doesn’t make the claim automatically untrue, but it does give the thinking person pause.
I just feel like it gets into really dangerous territory to come at any topic, let alone sexual abuse, with the “guilty until proven innocent,” “believe any claim no matter how bizarre or ludicrous or improbable” mindset. Not only does such unquestioning credulity seem unfair to the alleged perpetrator (I mean, seriously, what if that were your father or brother or husband?), it also really detracts from the other claims in the lawsuit, claims that were so much more documented and provable and corroborated.
And, like, I should add…
It IS true that every once in awhile, someone’s memory is just faulty. Or someone completely and utterly believes something happened to them that simply did not happen. Maybe the person is mentally ill. Maybe at a vulnerable point they were manipulated into remembering incorrectly. It’s been proven that the wrong kinds of questions can actually implant memories in children’s minds. Look at the McMartin preschool case from 30 years ago. Or studies done to show how false memories can be implanted.
Please understand, I am NOT saying we ought to go the other way and be automatically skeptical about abuse accusations. Just that the “believe the victim, the victim is always right” mantra seems unfair and downright dangerous when a victim makes bizarre claims that cannot be corroborated when corroboration shouldn’t be that hard to find. Such a mindset actually harms those with legitimate claims.
Hi Kris, good to talk with you again. First, the claims you are referencing are still listed publicly thanks to Brent Detwiler on his website under Lawsuit Resources/Lawsuit Documents/2nd Amended Complaint. You are conflating several different claims (different events and details) in the lawsuit:
Ln. 62-64 refer to the event with a camera and boas/pearls being put on the victim. No other
children were claimed to have been present.
Ln. 73-77 involve a group of children with some adults wearing masks.
Ln. 59, 90 describe a situation with 3 girls, 2 corroborating each other’s claims.
The alleged event at the Celebration conference (Ln. 73-77) occurred somewhere apparently in the dorm building, which CLC members normally stayed. Your blog posted a comment a few years ago that this building, now demolished, had a large PEMA (Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency) facility underneath the basement area of that dorm. This office facility would have been large enough and secluded enough for the event described. A Master Key set would have been provided most likely to Dorm Security, which as I recall was staffed by SGM workers or volunteers. This is just a theory that I have, perhaps future investigations will confirm it. It is certainly my hope and prayer that other victims will come forward. The victims who have done so already are very strong women and men.
There is no claim of Recovered Memories in our legal complaint. Therefore, I won’t address the whole False Memory concept, except to say you may be interested in this research project at Brown University: https://blogs.brown.edu/recoveredmemory/case-archive/legal-cases/
Lastly, the claims in our legal complaint that reference multiple alleged abusers and/or multiple victims are not “improbable” at all. They are exactly what occurs in a pedophile ring. Victims or photos of victims are traded like baseball cards. It is out of the norm obviously for most normal people even to imagine, especially in a religious setting. Prior to 2011, I knew nothing of pedophile rings or what they do. Unfortunately, now I do after having had to educate myself on all of this awful stuff. Masks and boas? That’s the least of the horror.
Thanks for not shutting it down. It is still a safe place where I can come if I need to. Sometimes it is just on my mind. Thanks for being here.
I did not suggest anyone in the lawsuit came forward claiming recovered memories…just that memories can be less hard-and-fast than we think they are sometimes, and sometimes they can be manipulated without our realization.
Hi Chris – Welcome back! In regard to the incident that allegedly happened at Celebration East, I would like to ask anyone who knows anything about it, to come forward, especially witnesses or victims to help us know whether it was fact or fiction. I personally asked some members of the old ‘Lord of Life Church’ about this a few years back. That’s the local church that hosted Celebration East conferences. Those I asked, were well aware of the defunct cold war ‘bomb shelter’; the one that has since been removed and, a new dorm building erected over its footprint (not long after that Celebration conference). But, the folks I asked were unaware of indiscretions of any kind during that Celebration, or that anything may have happened down there. They also did not know if alleged abuse of any kind, was the cause of the all-church Celebration East, ending that year. CJ did allow single adults to meet up there at least one more time, I think. Can someone verify that? At the time, CJ announced that he didn’t want to spend so much time going from conference to conference. However, if that is the case, it seems odd to me that, the UK, Mid-South, South and West Conferences continued, as far as I know. So, I’m not sure if his stated reason was the whole story or not and, we may never know. But, hey, if someone knows the full reason why he ended Celebration East, you can share that here, too. A lot of times, SGM Pastors only shared a piece of the truth and omitted the rest. Anyway, thanks for reinserting yourself into the conversation, Chris. It’s good hearing from you. I have a busy life as well and not many recurring thoughts about the disaster I call SGM, though I still pray that our old friends to come out into the light. Let us know if you set up a site where we can contribute to the costs of retaining Survivors..as long as there are viable SGM churches out there, there is still a very real need to keep this forum going. Also, can anyone fill us in on the details of what happened in the Chesapeake Church? Is that the one where John Butler was the senior pastor?
Drew – You haven’t answered Kris’ question. I would like to hear who these “numerous” bloggers were.
Additionally, in your original comment you said these bloggers have made it their goal in life to sue C.J. Mahaney, in your follow up you have widened your statement to include not only blogs, but also their commenters want to sue not only C.J. Mahaney but also SGM.
Can you back up these blanket statements with specifics?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
Drew says: “Numerous bloggers appeared to make it their goal in life to sue C.J. Mahaney. Surprise – he decided it was in his best interest to not give them possible cause.”
Kris says: “Which “bloggers” have attempted to sue CJ Mahaney?”
Drew says: “Other bloggers and their commenters have wanted to sue SGM and Mahaney”
Persona, Yes, John Butler was the Senior Pastor of the Chesapeake SGM when I first arrived. It’s been many years and I don’t recall why he left (I think to pastor another SGM church). I had already left the church when the Butlers came back.
As I was told by current “Redeemer Church” folks, he (and others, I believe) were concerned with the way things were going and confronted the Senior Pastor. Several attempts were made to show SP the error(s), but to no avail. The Butlers then left the church and that’s when the “fast” trickle of folks leaving began.
And Kris, btw, I am also willing to help pay for the cost of keeping this site open if there is a way to do that.
Persona said:
I remember one year that Celebration was only a singles event. I believe this was done for the 1994 Celebration. The previous year they had a problem with children pulling the fire alarms multiple times (the children wanted to hear the announcement voice). The local fire department was reportedly threatening to fine SGM.
SGM would never come out and admit that this change to singles only was due to what happened the year before but people thought that it was why. After all SGM was always a lot about their image as many have pointed out here.
I thought they continued to have more Celebrations there the year after it being a singles event with going back to having everyone come. I am not sure when it stopped.
Sometimes I think the Celebration meetings that SGM put on were very similar to what this group called the “MLTS” Meetings:
https://maranathaministriesrevisted.com/2017/08/15/36-leadership-and-control-in-mcm/
I am sure both the “Celebration” events and the “MLTS” were for similar purposes.
I seem to remember something being said that the Celebration Easts were shut down because they had grown too large and there were not available facilities that could hold everyone. Don’t know if that was actually the truth or just the official explanation,
I believe the investigator hired by CLC made contact with all participants and witnesses and victims named to be associated with the Celebration assault and all of them denied any knowledge of it.
If that incident is fiction, then it calls into question all of the memories involving that plaintiff, which includes anything involving the school, the principals, the kindergarten teacher’s basement and Dave Mayo. At CLC, all that remains is Pam’s Story and the story of Dave Adams. Hundreds of people were aware of the circumstances in the Adam’s story and the ways in which it contradicts the narrative in the lawsuit, but the church loved those children and nobody is going to come on here and trash them to correct any error.
The determination of the investigator was that all of the truthful situations involved police when they occurred, with the exception of Nate Morales.
The other situations could not be corroborated by anyone and the men accused were fully restored to the church. The police also investigated the plaintiff’s stories and found no reason to press criminal charges.
The tragedy of false accusations being mixed with true was very damaging.
1. It destroyed the lives and livelihood of men falsely accused.
2. The outrageous claims turned the focus from abuse of authority and counseling to sex abuse, which really wasn’t SGM’s problem. The abusive authority and counseling model caused them to not handle the few sex abuse cases well, but instances of sex abuse were few and far between.
3. The fictional claims empowered the leaders to boldly deny all accusations…never addressing spiritual abuse.
just saying said, “but the church loved those children and nobody is going to come on here and trash them to correct any error.”
If you look it up, plenty of people came on here and trashed that family. Really maddening.
I have not read a word of SGMSurvivors for a long time but the comment by “just saying” was just brought to my attention and I must speak. I posted this comment on this blog about “just saying/Crumbled” last April. It also applies to what she has written above.
Brent Detwiler says:
April 30, 2017 at 2:22 pm
On February 5, 2017, “just saying” commented on Thou Art the Man under the name “Crumbled.” The blog owner, Todd Wilhelm, contacted me and asked if I’d like to provide a response. I did. Wilhelm posted the response with his own introduction on Feb 14 in “Brent Detwiler’s Factual Rebuttal of Covenant Life Church Apologist.”
See http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/brent-detwilers-factual-rebuttal-of-covenant-life-church-apo.html
I concluded my response with this paragraph. “Crumbled, I’d sure like to know who you are. That is the problem with an alias. You could be a sex abuser. You could be a CLC pastor. You could be anything in between. This much I know, you are not honest! Stop the propaganda!”
Just saying’s dishonesty and propaganda continues and was brought to my attention. That is why I am commenting now. She is a CLC plant, not a truthful source on the conspiracy to commit and cover up the sexual abuse of children by CLC pastors and members.
##
Please read the entire article to understand the extent of lying and misinformation.
Further, the investigator hired by Covenant Life Church was Lars Liebeler. His “independent” investigation was scandalous! I have the complete transcript. There was nothing just about his undertaking. It was extraordinarily biased and prejudicial. Even worse, he withheld incriminating evidence from the report and made no attempt to interview victims. That is outrageous. For example, the victim referenced above.
Moreover, people don’t realize Liebeler was hired as a lawyer for CLC before he started his work. Therefore, he was bound by law from revealing anything incriminating about the pastors or church members in his reporting to CLC.
That is like Hillary Clinton hiring her own lawyer to investigate her email scandal and then have her lawyer report on it (i.e. her innocence). The Liebeler investigation was not “independent”! It was part of the cover up by CLC pastors.
I will be exposing the investigation. His report should not be trusted for good reason which I will demonstrate.
I recently posted “C.J. Mahaney, Covenant Life Church & the Conspiracy to Cover Up the Sexual Abuse of Children.” It is a small section from my unfinished book. It presents the facts – not propaganda. It lays out the condemnation of the CLC pastors by the Assistant States Attorney for covering up Morales’ “heinous crimes.” It also documents Grant Layman’s testimony that he knowingly, intentionally and illegally, did not report Morales crimes to law enforcement like the rest of the pastors.
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/cj-mahaney-covenant-life-church-the-conspiracy-to-cover-up-t.html
Rachael Denhollander (who was the first to courageously speak out in public against Larry Nassar and then worked hard to prosecute him) said this about Mahaney and SGM in an interview she did with the premier evangelical magazine, Christianity Today. Keep in mind she is a lawyer. The comments in brackets were added by the interviewer (not me) for clarity.
“The ultimate reality that I live with is that if my abuser had been Nathaniel Morales instead of Larry Nassar, if my enabler had been [an SGM pastor] instead of [MSU gymnastics coach] Kathie Klages, if the organization I was speaking out against was Sovereign Grace under the leadership of [Mahaney] instead of MSU under the leadership of Lou Anna Simon, I would not only not have evangelical support, I would be actively vilified and lied about by every single evangelical leader out there. The only reason I am able to have the support of these leaders now is because I am speaking out against an organization not within their community. Had I been so unfortunate so as to have been victimized by someone in their community, someone in the Sovereign Grace network, I would not only have their support, I would be massively shunned. That’s the reality. The only reason I am able to have the support of these leaders now is because I am speaking out against an organization not within their community. Had I been so unfortunate so as to have been victimized by someone in their community, someone in the Sovereign Grace network, I would not only have their support, I would be massively shunned. That’s the reality.”
You should read the entire interview at the link below.
My Larry Nassar Testimony Went Viral. But There’s More to the Gospel Than Forgiveness.
INTERVIEW BY MORGAN LEE| JANUARY 31, 2018
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/january-web-only/rachael-denhollander-larry-nassar-forgiveness-gospel.html
I have also written several other related articles on my blog.
Liebeler talked to the perpetrators and believed their false narratives. He did not talk to the victims. That is reprehensible. He also covered up for Mahaney by not asking questions that would have exposed his part in the conspiracy. Nor did he report on alleged sexual sadist John Loftness and his alleged accomplice, Gary Ricucci. He left them off the hook entirely. My goodness, that is where you start an “independent” (cough 100k) investigation. Two CLC pastors were credibly accused of crimes and Liebeler doesn’t even talk about it.
The Lord continues to raise up voices to expose and oppose the evil that occurred at CLC and SGM.
An “independent” investigator was paid by them, then didn’t interview one victim?!?! That is ludicrous!
Knowing what I know personally about abuse, I find the victims’ claims to be credible. On the other hand, I agree that false accusations are quite damaging. I hope that the claims about that Celebration East can be sorted out.
I would love an opportunity to help fund this site’s costs.
This site has been a tremendous help for me to move on from my own history, recognize people’s limitations and not long for a chance to change them, and experience joy.
Thank you Kris and Guy for all your support of this website.
So I think I’ve missed something.
Is there a situation within SGM/SGC/CLC/some other SGM church that parallels the situation within women’s gymnastics and Larry Nassar? Like is there a single perpetrator not yet brought to justice who has a number of accusers, a perpetrator still being protected by SGC leadership? I’m aware of the Nathan Morales case, but I thought that was more of an anomaly, in terms of really overt serial offenders.
Pam mentioned a pedophile ring. Who is involved in this pedophile ring? Who is covering it up? How many kids have come forward with allegations?
just saying said:
As others have chimes in your own words you say “investigator hired by CLC.” Doesn’t that say a lot just right there. CLC hired this investigator and you really think this investigator hired by CLC is going to reveal much if anything that incriminates CLC? Just baffling that you think this way.
Ah, Brent is back. I was pretty sure he couldn’t stay away.
Hey Kris-
So nice to see you back here. I join the people who would be glad to send a little contribution if you choose to set something up.
I think the site matters, especially as a long collection of stories and comments that give a broad picture of SGM going back to TAG-GOB-PDI. At the very least, a great many of your lead articles with thought out comments on the SGM culture are priceless and I hope could be archived somewhere.
Regarding this thread, there are two subjects. One subject is the decades of what SGM was under the oversight of the apostolic team. The control, the pastors/leaders on pedestals, the quenching of the priesthood of all believers, the legalism, the abuse of authority, the “shepherding” doctrines, the accusations, etc. As ‘Just Saying’ posted at the end of the last thread:
“The issue with SGM wasn’t sex. But, how they mishandled sex abuse situations was merely a symptom of how they treated human beings in general. The total devaluing of God’s chosen people.”
That is one subject. Decades of a cult-like, seriously problematic group of churches that in so many ways had leaders who bungled their God ordained responsibility, not just from normal human fallibility that we all have, but often seemingly from darker crueler motives.
The other subject is the sex abuse cases and the cover ups and lawsuits. As tragic as they are, making them the sole focus of what is wrong with SGM is like looking at poison mushrooms and ignoring the huge dead tree they are growing on. All of those cases- every one- was affected by the culture and atmosphere of SGM to varied degrees. A culture, let me say it again, that was upheld and perpetuated and supported by Detwiler as a system. And while he has apologized for his personal sins to individuals in some cases, until he sees the whole recycled 70s shepherding movement system that he helped institute as WRONG, he remains somebody who sees one part of the problem (the sex stuff) but not the dying and decaying undergrowth in which the toadstools fester and grow. And this site covers so much of that SGM culture that it would be a shame to see the site disappear.
Another subject, which must be mentioned, is that lately the main accusation seems to be that the civil authorities were not involved. SGM didn’t call the cops. Bloggers latch onto this.
As countless people including pastors have said to hubby and me, back then nobody called the cops. The most clear reading of 1 Corinthians six is that it is a shame and disgrace to involve the local civil magistrate. Lawsuits are a defeat.
I don’t want to digress on this, it is another subject. Knowing what we know now I think the church has woken up and would call the cops on pedophiles, and hopefully put them in jail for a long time. And nobody I know sees the lawsuit as selfish, but instead a way to force changes in SGM to protect kids. Hopefully the mess has woken up pastors all over the nation.
But the point is, we know pastors who don’t read the blogs and they think the big fuss with SGM is that they didn’t call the cops. SGM tried to keep dealing with serious sin within the church, as 1 Cor 6 says, so they think. And so they feel sympathetic to Mahaney, etc, because traditionally it was biblical to not involve secular authorities if at all possible. Sometimes social workers were hostile to Christians anyway, and that is getting worse.
This is why I hate to lose the record here that the SGM problem is so much bigger and broader than the sex abuse stuff. There are years of stories about the abusive authoritarian system, the legalism, etc. Kris asked a lot of questions about what is going on now, and one thing I can say from experience, is that until people apologize they don’t really change. Until we admit our problems we don’t really get free from them. Mumford and Prince and many of the Shepherding guys admitted they were wrong, and the top down heavy handed authority teachings were wrong, but that hasn’t happened with SGM. So I think we can assume there has been no true change.
Again, Kris, so very nice to see you here again.
I have friends at one of the larger SGC churches in the northeast. From what I gather, quite a few of the established families have left in the last couple years. The odd thing is that people stuck around through the lawsuits and Brent’s documents, but now they are moving on. I cannot get clear answers on what people tell the pastors when asked for the reason they are leaving. It is almost like they do not want to hurt the pastors’ feelings. The people who stay are frustrated that the leadership is in denial about the departures. There is a reluctance to face reality.
Although I admit to having just been on the fringes having once attended for a short time, I do appreciate all the hard work people have put into this. It has been most helpful to me and for that I am very grateful.
5YearsinPDI
In response to your latest comment you seem to be using the passage about lawsuits as the scripture being quoted to justify not involving the police in cases such as children being molested. That is the first I have heard this passage used to justify not involving the police. That passage could be applied to lawsuits but some have even interpreted the passage as minor claims where Paul said why not just be wronged.
One Sunday service at Einstein High School a woman started saying things and interrupting during the worship portion of the service. They forcibly removed the woman. The next Sunday C.J. said he had no qualms about calling the police in that situation.
If anything it might have been the passage about going to your brother “in private” even when someone was molesting a child like it appears they did with Nathan Morales vs report Morales. My take on this is that with SGM/CLC apparently being all about their perception would rather keep things “quiet” and “in house” vs. exposed by involving police.
Steve240, I think that is a powerful story. I have never heard it. Thank you for sharing it.
Steve-
Maybe I didn’t communicate well and was too long winded (ya think?!). The point I am trying to make is that many fine people who don’t read the blogs and didn’t follow the SGM story think that the entire one and only gripe and complaint about SGM is that they try to deal with sin inside the church instead of going to cops.
Their response to that is that nobody used to call the cops. My husband was up close to people involved in several (non SGM) cases years ago and nobody even thought of going to cops. And my response to this is that the SGM problem is much bigger than whether or not you go to the civil authorities.
None of it we knew about was pedophilia. We knew a guy who had murdered somebody in a gang war before he got saved. Another man was guilty of financial crimes, he was excommunicated, but it never went past the church. Another was a pastor who went after adult women sexually and it was kept within the denomination until eventually (years later) he left. Knowing what we know now, in order to protect other people especially children, I think most people would call the cops. Although, when a perp cries and sobs and claims to be so sorry and they will never do it again, I can understand a well meaning but naive pastor keeping it in the church.
But this is not the SGM discussion or problem that I think deserves to be front and center (some may disagree). The way SGM handled things- as you put it-came from caring about how others perceived them, and maintaining the myths about the superior churches and leaders, and not caring about what was best for people under their care…at least after hundreds of stories which are not related to sex abuse, it sure seems that way.
That is my point. The bloggers seem obsessed with not calling the cops, and in light of 1 Cor 6 there is a place for Christians to decide not to call the cops. You and I may disagree, especially regarding pedophiles, but for decades in the charismatic movement things were kept in the church. Paul speaks of going to the authorities as a shame and disgrace, and we can have a theological argument about when we go or when we don’t go to the cops, but at the end of the day is that the SGM problem? Or is the way they handled things a symptom of something deeper and darker than a misunderstanding of how to apply 1 Cor 6?
I just wish the whole focus hadn’t become not going to the cops. It makes it so easy for people to give CJ and SGM a pass. If you don’t know about the whole apostolic team and pastoral shepherding abuse of authority, then you think the whole problem is about calling cops. It isn’t. It is about a church culture that was/is deeply flawed with some major dark strongholds.
Steve240 – Wow, if we are talking about the same thing, I remember that situation at Einstein. The woman was sitting right behind me.
The difference between that situation and the kinds of things 5Years brings up is that the woman was not a member, she was visting that day, and she started yelling things at Larry and/or CJ about how her son went crazy and was committed to an institution, thanks to them (at least, that is my general recollection). I could see it be the case that had she been a member, maybe the police would not have been called. It didn’t help, either, that she was verbally attacking the leaders – I know they wanted her out of there fast.
5yearsinPDI
Thanks for the feedback. There are other cases where the police were contacted. The story I hear about David Adams and his molesting his (at the time) step daughter is that they did tell him to go turn himself in to the police which I understood he did.
There are other scriptures that give guidance on whether to involve the police/civil authorities. One of these is Romans 13 which I know SGM/CLC use to teach. This is what Paul had to say about governing authorities:
Again my thought is when CLC/SGM chose to not contact the police was selective and perhaps for protecting their image when they decided against it.
– With Nathan Morales it was a long time until what he did came out. Thus don’t go to the authorities.
– As I recall Noel’s story the leaders of Fairfax SGM were first contacting their lawyers to see if it needed to be reported this to the police.
I am sure there are other examples.
So why continue? I went back and re-read some of the Stories.
Taylor’s Story really got me as I knew those people. I was there and it all happened right under our noses. The dad in Taylor’s Story was on set up crew and was often behind the stage where other kids would be around.
The only reason I know that Backpage exists was because of Gene Emerson. Emerson was the Cardinal over our archdiocese.
The perp in Noel’s Story showed up at one of the Franchises we were attending.
And there are others that we knew.
For all of SGC’s supposed theological prowess, they couldn’t even discern the difference between a sin and a crime. Christ came to forgive your sin, not to cover up your crime.
No one should ever forget or be unaware of what they are.
You are correct that she wasn’t a member and that might explain the threat of calling the police. She was ranting perhaps really to no one in specific. C.J. was there but I don’t remember Larry being around.
Steve-
“Again my thought is when CLC/SGM chose to not contact the police was selective and perhaps for protecting their image when they decided against it.”
Of course. At this point I would not even use the word “perhaps”.
Bringing up Taylor’s story illustrates my point though, that SGM darkness is way more than not calling the police.
https://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/08/
Let’s pretend SGM is awarded a public announcement as the finest example of churches reporting perps to cops in the USA. The state attorney generals applaud them for turning in perps instantly.
Newspapers write articles about how wonderful they are, in contrast to the Roman Catholic Scandals. CJ Mahaney is a hero to law enforcement and the body of Christ.
Does that change what is in SGM, or was? Lets look at Taylor’s story which Roadwork just referred to.
Then there is Dave Adams. Suppose CJ had called the cops instead of the wife. Suppose SGM made sure he served time in jail. So how much does it matter that when the guy gets out he is in a band with kids, and even sleepovers at his house?
Then there is the lady in this one:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/sex-abuse-victim-asserts-prominent-sgm-pastor-marty-machowsk.html
“As I write this, I’m facing renewed pressure from my husband to “reconcile and reunify” (spurred on by Andy Farmer and Marty Machowski). It’s been 8 YEARS since our separation, and about 6 years since I resigned from the church – and the pressure continues. To date, my husband has turned himself inside out to regain his reputation in the eyes of men – and he’s quite smug in his supportive audience of these two pastors. While it’s true that he’s repented of a few general, “peripheral” issues, [he] has yet to repent of the numerous physical and sexual abuse issues that caused me to leave him and leave our church. My lawyer told me recently: “Doesn’t your church get it — that CYS [Child & Youth Services] will take your children away from YOU if you go back to your husband?!??
(By the way, my husband is happy as a lark that he’s gotten off scott-free and has been reinstated in the church. Although he admitted to me that his problem of pedophilia has gone on for years, he is still unrepentant. He says he “gets such pleasure from his sin…he can’t imagine living without it.)”
Suppose SGM were the first ones to call the cops. As good as it is to ever see a perp get locked up, what about the way they pressure wives to stay with a pervert after he gets out?
There are all kinds of stories on this blog. Eliminate anything having to do with SGM not calling the cops on child molesters, and you still have a long sordid list of awful pastoral actions that range from inept and bungling to abusive and horrific. We were all young once and made mistakes we would not make today. Some grace has to be given to ignorant inept people trying their best but making things worse. But as you grow older and wiser you admit your terrible mistakes and wrong thinking and apologize (in my case, repeatedly to my kids, who thank God love us).
Making it all about calling the cops seems almost like playing into Satan’s hand to me. It aids the cover up of the dark strongholds that operated in SGM completely apart from this subject.
I was thinking about it a lot today. There is something really psychologically disturbed with the top leaders who don’t issue a profoundly apologetic statement for what happened on their watch, especially blaming kids and wives for pedophiles. And when they can’t see that anything in the church wide culture contributed to the accusation and blame games and apologize, it seems so very very creepy to me. It was more than just one bad apple in the barrel, it is story after story.
Well enough, if this doesn’t convince Kris and Guy that keeping a record of all the many posts is worthwhile, I give up :). God bless you all, and may you know much joy in the days ahead. Life with the Lord is meant to be wonderful, and I do pray that any hurting get back all the “years that the locusts have eaten”. Old testament justice was to get back double for anything a thief stole….may you see more than double for all that was lost.
For those that aren’t aware it looks like CLC under their new pastor is going to change their name.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/02/26/covenant-life-church-soon-to-be-christ-church-metro-joining-advance/
Like Kris, I’ve always been cautious in accepting stories of extreme sexual abuse.
https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/girl-told-truth/
The “pedophile ring” that was alleged as a part of SGM always sounded over the top.
Rachael Denhollander, the first public victim of the Gymnastics coach Larry Nassar, posted this long, well-researched response to SGM on her public Facebook page @OfficialDenhollander. Among other things, she skewers the Thaler-Liebeler “independent” report. An attorney herself, her analysis is powerful. Here is just a small quote:Key witnesses regarding the claims against SGM were not contacted or interviewed for this review. This includes alleged victims, known sexual assault victims including some of the victims of Nathaniel Morales, and corroborating witnesses such as parents, siblings and those involved in reconciliation meetings. Thus, this review did not include speaking with many of the very people raising the charges and concerns, or witnesses on behalf of these people.
CLC retained the firm as their attorney, meaning that all information found during the investigation was protected under attorney-client privilege, and was not released. This is the precise tactic used by Michigan State University in the Larry Nassar case, when they retained an attorney to conduct a private review. They rightfully received public scorn for this maneuver and have now submitted to a truly independent review, which has already produced significant incriminating evidence somehow “missed” by the initial review. CLC and Sovereign Grace, by contrast, never have consented to such an investigation.
Sorry if that is confusing, I tried to do the quote-end quote thing to separate out her words!
Rachael Denhollander has provided a devastating response to Sovereign Grace Churches, Inc. for their utterly unfounded condemnation of her. But far more than a defense, she puts forth an “offense” by summarizing the evidence against them. Based upon this evidence, she again calls for an independent investigation. This is an extremely important statement! Here is the link.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/rachael-denhollander/response-to-sovereign-grace-churches/1720170721396574/
Was Rachel ever a part of an SGM ministry? Or is this second hand?
Drew
Read the link that Brent posted right before your comment. It gives Rachel’s background etc.
Drew, Rachelxs post is not a flame-throwing fest, it is reasoned, well researched and redemptive in nature. In the comments, Joe McMullin (yeah, that Joe McMullin, formerly if CovFefe (Cov Fel) described Rachel’s statement as a severe mercy. I pray that someone within SGM receive as such.
Kris, I totally understand where you are coming from. The scene at celebration, as few river, was so horrific that it has to be true, it the person with the memory has mental health issues. It’s hard to imagine anything in between. I cannot bring myself to automatically accept it, either, but I also cannot dismiss it. It needs to be investigated, but likely never will.
The Pittsburgh church more or less had a split when an Acts 29-friendly, ambitious, youbger associate pastor led the church board in what has essentially been described to me as a coup to force out the senior pastor. They hired a 29 year old guy (or somewhere in that neighborhood) guy from outside of the church and out of state to replace him. A lot of the long time members left. It was all handled in a very SGM like manner with the board operating out of Mark Prater’s guidebook of abusive control, trying to limit public forums to discuss what happened, in favor of private meetings because of they were afraid of people sinning. This, of course, is cover for not wanting to answer difficult queations, honestly, in public to face further scrutiny.