More to Say?
February 21, 2018 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Well, Guy gave me an ultimatum this morning. Either I put up a new post, or he’s shutting down the site. He’s tired of paying the hosting and domain fees.
I can’t say I blame him. Things have been pretty dead around here. NOT because Sovereign Grace Ministries’ leadership ever fully acknowledged and took responsibility for their institutional dysfunction. To the best of my knowledge, that’s never happened on any organization-wide official scale. Yes, Covenant Life Church and several other SGM congregations around the country parted ways with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Some leaders, including Joshua Harris, did speak out and take some responsibility for SGM’s issues. C.J. Mahaney did step down as president of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
But after some cursory soul-searching back in 2012-13 or so, C.J. Mahaney and crew dispatched themselves to start a very well-funded InstaChurch in Louisville, Kentucky. New leadership was named at SGM Corporate, which also relocated to Louisville from Gaithersburg, Maryland. In late 2014, Sovereign Grace Ministries quietly rebranded itself yet again for its fourth moniker (Gathering of Believers became People of Destiny International became PDI Ministries, became Sovereign Grace Ministries), becoming Sovereign Grace Churches. Recently, Sovereign Grace Churches even doubled down on their denials of wrongdoing, apparently hoping people will believe that the dismissal of the sex abuse scandal on a technicality (the statute of limitations had run out) means the justice system officially determined that there never was any merit to ANY of the complaints made within that lawsuit.
So no, it’s not that there’s nothing left to talk about here when it comes to Sovereign Grace Churches. There is. I just haven’t had the self-discipline or motivation to crank out posts. I’ve never seen myself as some sort of crusader. I don’t actually have an ax to grind with Sovereign Grace Churches specifically. And certainly, being a more generic “watch-blogger” has never held any appeal for me. Who wants to spend their days self-importantly clucking over every perceived problem in conservative Evangelicalism?
I’m also not comfortable being an unthinking “victims’ advocate.” I’ve just never been the kind of person who can unquestioningly believe every random accusation no matter how ludicrous, even if said allegation is included in a lawsuit filing. More importantly, I’m not particularly interested in hosting a website where people feel free to spew negativity about what is literally our only comfort in life and death. For believers, there’s a vital God-mandated “baby” (the local church) in the filthy “bathwater” of Sovereign Grace Churches’ bad behavior, and recognizing problems with a particular way of doing church is definitely no excuse for ditching church altogether.
But I’m not ready quite yet to let go of this specific space, of what happened here, either. I remain convinced that a lot of the stuff here needs to remain available, particularly things like transcripts of key sermons that formed the foundation for many of SGM’s unofficial yet organization-wide cultural practices. If you read here long enough, with an even slightly open mind, I think you’ll come away with a sense of the scope and breadth of SGM’s/SGC’s issues and why the purported changes of the past few years may not be enough to address things. I mean, given their very recent denials, Sovereign Grace Churches’ leaders apparently STILL struggle mightily to own their obvious historical problems.
I’m also curious to get some sense of where Sovereign Grace Churches are today. I haven’t interacted much over the past couple of years with people currently involved in Sovereign Grace Churches, so I’m wondering about whether things have changed much, and if so, how? For instance, how has C.J. Mahaney’s departure as leader affected the organization these past 5 or so years? How is Sovereign Grace Churches’ polity different? What policies does SGC have in place to prevent the kinds of abuses that occurred prior to when the internet lifted the veil of secrecy? Has anyone ever officially acknowledged the truths of Brent Detwiler’s documents? What has been done to either refute his charges or reconcile with him?
Are changes–and more importantly, the reasons for the changes, the problems that arose and prompted the changes–discussed and explained? Or has change just been implemented with little information?
What do Sovereign Grace Churches stand for these days? How do they characterized themselves? Are they still touting themselves to be “Reformed and Charismatic”? Do they still have the prophecy microphone? Do they still believe the role of apostle exists in some form today? What do they teach about pastoral authority now? What sort of accountability is in place for pastors? Are pastors accountable to their congregations in some sort of formal way, or are they still basically only accountable to other pastors? Does SGC still plant churches? Is C.J. Mahaney’s Louisville plant self-supporting now? Are pastoral salaries disclosed to the congregation? Are church members still primarily seeking counseling from their Sovereign Grace Churches pastors? Are psychiatric drugs still subtly (and not-so-subtly) discouraged? Are members still encouraged to confront one another about perceived sins? Do small groups (called “care groups” at Covenant Life Church) still exist in the same format? Are people free to join any care/small group of their choice, or are they assigned (and then randomly reassigned) to small groups?
How do individual Sovereign Grace Churches feel about the recent statements about sexual abuse from Corporate? Is this the widespread party line, that because the 2012 lawsuit was dismissed on a technicality, Sovereign Grace Ministries was somehow vindicated and found “not guilty” of any of the allegations contained in the lawsuit? Do present-day Sovereign Grace Churches acknowledge the old unspoken social systems that gave rise to so many situations where pastors protected abusers and did not report abuse to law enforcement?
Do people feel free to ask questions of their leaders now? How do leaders respond when questioned? Are the “gossip ‘n’ slander” charges still thrown about as willy-nilly as they used to be?
Most importantly, will there ever be official corporate-wide acknowledgement of Sovereign Grace Ministries’ historical missteps and dysfunction?
What do you think?
Kris and Guy,
Thank you so much for not closing the site. As you are probably aware there are new developments and news items afoot , with at least 2 books in the works which will liberally reference this site (Brent’s book and the one I’ve been working on ).
Aside from that, and much more importantly, this site is a treasure trove of blood, sweat, and tears where others have been able to heal, gain critical insight, and find their way to freedom because of the compelling testimonials and comments shared here.
Please consider opening a Paetron account so those who would like to, can support and protect this great body of work.
Thank you both for being very useful and timely instruments in the hands of God. We know it has not been without sacrifice and heartache on your part, and for that we are ever so grateful.
I can assure you, this blog site has literally saved lives……. and continues to do so. God bless,
Balaam’s Donkey
Kris and Guy,
Thank you so much for not closing the site. As you are probably aware there are new developments and news items afoot , with at least 2 books in the works which will liberally reference this site (Brent’s book and the one I’ve been working on ).
Aside from that, and much more importantly, this site is a treasure trove of blood, sweat, and tears where others have been able to heal, gain critical insight, and find their way to freedom because of the compelling testimonials and comments shared here.
Please consider opening a Paetron account so those who would like to, can support and protect this great body of work.
Thank you both for being very useful and timely instruments in the hands of God. We know it has not been without sacrifice and heartache on your part, and for that we are ever so grateful.
I can assure you, this blog site has literally saved lives……. and continues to do so. God bless,
Balaam’s Donkey
Hi Kris,
I think Rachel Denhollander has stirred the pot. She’s a determined powerhouse who won’t likely let SGM (whatever they call themselves these days or in future iterations) run and hide.
Will they ever sincerely apologize? No.
But I predict a long- winded one with so many words that it won’t ever truly say anything of consequence. It will sound like an applofy but be a hollow statement put out by their attorneys. No hearts will feel pain, no repentance will take place, no restitution offered.
Rachel’s husband hopes for true heart repentance and change. I hope he turns out to be right.
But I’ve watched these people for 40 years and they have had ample chance and opportunity to repent, change, and demonstrate they have a heart. If they wanted to change, they would have by now.
Color me jaded.
Hi Kris
Good to see you posting. Your writing ability always amazes me. Lots of good questions.
When you said this about C.J. Mahaney:
I think if anything you were being quite generous. My take is C.J. really never really did any soul searching i.e. practice a lot of what he has taught and imposed on other SGM Leaders over the years. If C.J. really did some soul searching he quickly come to realize what it would cost him and seeing this large cost found a way to justify in his mind his actions etc. No one dared challenge the group’s pope!
Despite all that has transpired and been revealed and SGM’s basic denial of most that has been revealed I sadly don’t think SGM Leadership will ever see their sin and hypocrisy and repent. Any type of confession and repentance would have to be the result of God bringing conviction and more exposure which is always possible. From what I have seen with their history even if SGM sees that they had issues they might make some changes but will never admit their changes.
One example of not admitting issues is with disqualifying leaders whose children had issues. C.J. Mahaney’s son has had some issues over the years including pot smoking and a DUI. Sadly for a while Mahaney and others even covered up these actions (the pot smoking) apparently to keep from having to impose on Mahaney what Mahaney imposed on other SGM Leaders.
In corresponding with one former pastor who still attends an SGM church, this pastor claims that Mahaney was going and apologizing to other leaders for disqualification. You never heard anything public that I am aware of like Mahaney admitting he made an error in disqualifying leaders for children’s actions.
Since Mahaney’s son no longer has the father son/blog and thus isn’t part of the “family business” (SGM) I am choosing not to use his name.
I was wondering if maybe the finances would dry up more for SGM but looking at their latest financial statement (I posted the link for this recently in the last post) it doesn’t look like that has happened so far. Looking at this statement (I am not an accountant) it looks like their finances have stabilized vs. where they had large deficits for a few years.
In summary I don’t think there is much you can do about SGM with the exception of people exposing additional sin and hypocrisy.
And this came to my email, I used to spend many hours here and you and many on this blog gave me hope. Haven’t really been on here for years but what I gained from this community can’t be quantified. I feel like it saved my life in a way and I’ll always be thankful ❤️
Numerous bloggers appeared to make it their goal in life to sue C.J. Mahaney. Surprise – he decided it was in his best interest to not give them possible cause.
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I’m thinking you can’t have it both ways; “We just want an apology” but then sue on the basis of that apology.
[ Any lawyer worth his/her salt will tell you to “just shut up.” ]
BTW, what has become of that supposedly imminent 3rd lawsuit? I’ve always wondered if it isn’t the cost. Susan Burke might have done the first one on the expectation they would win and she’d be re-imbursed, but not the third one. If she’s a professional, she now wants her money up front. It’s easy to sue when it costs you nothing but if you actually have to dig into your pockets to pay the $500 and hour [ or more ] fee – well that puts a totally different spin on it.
It’s been more than 10 years since our family left the Chesapeake, VA church. Much had happened. When My oldest turned 18, she went out and experienced all the things the church would have kicked her out for (or at least they would had several meetings with “senior” men, decided what was to be done, and she likely would have had to agree to counseling and who knows what else. I’m gtreatful she had no desire to step foot in that church again.
The church, of course, has changed their name, and distanced themselves from CJ and anything SGM. But from what I understand, after a few weeks, it was right back to the same stuff. Maybe a little less obvious. But it stayed the same.
I recently found out that there has been another large split (appx 400 left), which began with a former senior pastor confronting the “new” senior, who’s really not “new”, he’s been senior pastor since the original split, I believe.
Afrer likely several confrontations, they left and the trickle began. It is about 1/2 the size it grew to over the years since he church officially left SGM.
I have never been to that church since originally leaving, but have first-hand knowledge of the facts stated above from folks I somethimes keep in touch with that still attend.
I feel really, truly bad for the folks that I love there. Scared to leave. Scared to stay.
Drew,
Which “bloggers” have attempted to sue CJ Mahaney?
About lawsuits…there’s evidence that apologies actually deter lawsuits.
http://www.calbarjournal.com/July2010/TopHeadlines/TH1.aspx
Kris, After re-reading my post again, I shouldn’t have said my daughter would have been “kicked out”. They didn’t do it that obviously, they would have ostrisized her even more (if that were possible, she already never fit in there). The care group leaders would have had meetings and I’m certain it would have gone to the pastors and then they would have meetings, etc.
But I really left out the best part. After my daughter’s fairly short experimental stage, she has come back to the Lord by many, many prayers (but mostly His desire to see her healed from the trauma and show her who she really is in Christ.) He also led her and her fiancé to an amazinz Methodist church that is full of His true grace. With the help of her church (that loves and accepts her as she is, and is joyous to receive her to them), she is now a different person. Still struggles with real adulthood things, but has people care for her and not just try to get her to admit her sin. (Although ptivately and with her fiancé at the time, she has repented of her “free-style love). She’s like a different person. And indeed she is! It took many years for her desire to even find a church, and…they teach the Word (!) with no additions, sin-sniffing, and just loving on her with the Truth of Who God really is to her.
After leaving SGC, we prayed so hard that the insecurities she felt as a child (as her parents we certainly lost our joy and were terribly insecure), would be reversed and the truth of her as a daughter of the King would be made real. And she now believes it and lives it. God truly has placed us all where we feel at home and loved, and can love again.
I hope this is not difficult to understand, and I would love if you could replace the “kicking out” with the truth, and add the best part, am praying will give others hope way beyond our dark experiences at SGM.
Powerful testimony of women who were not believed after being abused at New Bethany Home by the Ministry leader. (Evangelical but not related to SGM) It has always been a pattern that victims are often not believed. Our strength is in believing each other, in speaking out, and in standing together.
https://www.npr.org/2018/02/23/586096174/finding-strength-in-shared-stories-of-childhood-sexual-abuse (audio 2:51 mins)
Which “bloggers” have attempted to sue CJ Mahaney? – Kris
Other bloggers and their commenters have wanted to sue SGM and Mahaney
– I don’t remember you or “Jim” who had the other blog, encouraging lawsuits.
I’m also quite impressed by your post:
“So no, it’s not that there’s nothing left to talk about here when it comes to Sovereign Grace Churches. There is. I just haven’t had the self-discipline or motivation to crank out posts. I’ve never seen myself as some sort of crusader. I don’t actually have an ax to grind with Sovereign Grace Churches specifically. And certainly, being a more generic “watch-blogger” has never held any appeal for me. Who wants to spend their days self-importantly clucking over every perceived problem in conservative Evangelicalism?
I’m also not comfortable being an unthinking “victims’ advocate.” I’ve just never been the kind of person who can unquestioningly believe every random accusation no matter how ludicrous, even if said allegation is included in a lawsuit filing. More importantly, I’m not particularly interested in hosting a website where people feel free to spew negativity about what is literally our only comfort in life and death. For believers, there’s a vital God-mandated “baby” (the local church) in the filthy “bathwater” of Sovereign Grace Churches’ bad behavior, and recognizing problems with a particular way of doing church is definitely no excuse for ditching church altogether.”
Pam,
I agree that historically, people have been unfairly skeptical of victims’ claims. However, I’ll be honest – one of the reasons I grew a little leery of unquestioningly believing EVERY accusation was actually the original 2012 lawsuit filed by Susan Burke. I know your family was part of that lawsuit, so maybe you can straighten me out here.
Most of the claims in the lawsuit – including yours – were consistent with patterns I had observed in stories I’d already heard…but there was one that just seemed fantastical to me, the one where a plaintiff claimed to have been abused with several other kids from her children’s class at a Celebration conference. I don’t have the lawsuit in front of me right now, but from what I can remember, honestly, that portion of the complaint did not ring true for a number of reasons. First, if an entire group of kids had really been dressed up in feather boas and whatnot and photographed and molested, wouldn’t someone, anyone (a parent, another teacher, anyone) have noticed something peculiar at the time?
More to the point, secondly, after that claim was publicized, was there anyone from among the other alleged victims who came forward to corroborate this story? Surely something so bizarre would have made an impression on at least one other child’s memory…or some parent would have remembered something about their child telling them a fantastical story about getting pictures taken…or just…something. But as far as I know (and again, correct me if I’m wrong), no one else has ever made similar claims or ever come forward to support that claim from the 2012 lawsuit. Obviously, a lack of such corroboration for what would have been an event witnessed by several individuals doesn’t make the claim automatically untrue, but it does give the thinking person pause.
I just feel like it gets into really dangerous territory to come at any topic, let alone sexual abuse, with the “guilty until proven innocent,” “believe any claim no matter how bizarre or ludicrous or improbable” mindset. Not only does such unquestioning credulity seem unfair to the alleged perpetrator (I mean, seriously, what if that were your father or brother or husband?), it also really detracts from the other claims in the lawsuit, claims that were so much more documented and provable and corroborated.
And, like, I should add…
It IS true that every once in awhile, someone’s memory is just faulty. Or someone completely and utterly believes something happened to them that simply did not happen. Maybe the person is mentally ill. Maybe at a vulnerable point they were manipulated into remembering incorrectly. It’s been proven that the wrong kinds of questions can actually implant memories in children’s minds. Look at the McMartin preschool case from 30 years ago. Or studies done to show how false memories can be implanted.
Please understand, I am NOT saying we ought to go the other way and be automatically skeptical about abuse accusations. Just that the “believe the victim, the victim is always right” mantra seems unfair and downright dangerous when a victim makes bizarre claims that cannot be corroborated when corroboration shouldn’t be that hard to find. Such a mindset actually harms those with legitimate claims.
Hi Kris, good to talk with you again. First, the claims you are referencing are still listed publicly thanks to Brent Detwiler on his website under Lawsuit Resources/Lawsuit Documents/2nd Amended Complaint. You are conflating several different claims (different events and details) in the lawsuit:
Ln. 62-64 refer to the event with a camera and boas/pearls being put on the victim. No other
children were claimed to have been present.
Ln. 73-77 involve a group of children with some adults wearing masks.
Ln. 59, 90 describe a situation with 3 girls, 2 corroborating each other’s claims.
The alleged event at the Celebration conference (Ln. 73-77) occurred somewhere apparently in the dorm building, which CLC members normally stayed. Your blog posted a comment a few years ago that this building, now demolished, had a large PEMA (Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency) facility underneath the basement area of that dorm. This office facility would have been large enough and secluded enough for the event described. A Master Key set would have been provided most likely to Dorm Security, which as I recall was staffed by SGM workers or volunteers. This is just a theory that I have, perhaps future investigations will confirm it. It is certainly my hope and prayer that other victims will come forward. The victims who have done so already are very strong women and men.
There is no claim of Recovered Memories in our legal complaint. Therefore, I won’t address the whole False Memory concept, except to say you may be interested in this research project at Brown University: https://blogs.brown.edu/recoveredmemory/case-archive/legal-cases/
Lastly, the claims in our legal complaint that reference multiple alleged abusers and/or multiple victims are not “improbable” at all. They are exactly what occurs in a pedophile ring. Victims or photos of victims are traded like baseball cards. It is out of the norm obviously for most normal people even to imagine, especially in a religious setting. Prior to 2011, I knew nothing of pedophile rings or what they do. Unfortunately, now I do after having had to educate myself on all of this awful stuff. Masks and boas? That’s the least of the horror.
Thanks for not shutting it down. It is still a safe place where I can come if I need to. Sometimes it is just on my mind. Thanks for being here.
I did not suggest anyone in the lawsuit came forward claiming recovered memories…just that memories can be less hard-and-fast than we think they are sometimes, and sometimes they can be manipulated without our realization.
Hi Chris – Welcome back! In regard to the incident that allegedly happened at Celebration East, I would like to ask anyone who knows anything about it, to come forward, especially witnesses or victims to help us know whether it was fact or fiction. I personally asked some members of the old ‘Lord of Life Church’ about this a few years back. That’s the local church that hosted Celebration East conferences. Those I asked, were well aware of the defunct cold war ‘bomb shelter’; the one that has since been removed and, a new dorm building erected over its footprint (not long after that Celebration conference). But, the folks I asked were unaware of indiscretions of any kind during that Celebration, or that anything may have happened down there. They also did not know if alleged abuse of any kind, was the cause of the all-church Celebration East, ending that year. CJ did allow single adults to meet up there at least one more time, I think. Can someone verify that? At the time, CJ announced that he didn’t want to spend so much time going from conference to conference. However, if that is the case, it seems odd to me that, the UK, Mid-South, South and West Conferences continued, as far as I know. So, I’m not sure if his stated reason was the whole story or not and, we may never know. But, hey, if someone knows the full reason why he ended Celebration East, you can share that here, too. A lot of times, SGM Pastors only shared a piece of the truth and omitted the rest. Anyway, thanks for reinserting yourself into the conversation, Chris. It’s good hearing from you. I have a busy life as well and not many recurring thoughts about the disaster I call SGM, though I still pray that our old friends to come out into the light. Let us know if you set up a site where we can contribute to the costs of retaining Survivors..as long as there are viable SGM churches out there, there is still a very real need to keep this forum going. Also, can anyone fill us in on the details of what happened in the Chesapeake Church? Is that the one where John Butler was the senior pastor?
Drew – You haven’t answered Kris’ question. I would like to hear who these “numerous” bloggers were.
Additionally, in your original comment you said these bloggers have made it their goal in life to sue C.J. Mahaney, in your follow up you have widened your statement to include not only blogs, but also their commenters want to sue not only C.J. Mahaney but also SGM.
Can you back up these blanket statements with specifics?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
Drew says: “Numerous bloggers appeared to make it their goal in life to sue C.J. Mahaney. Surprise – he decided it was in his best interest to not give them possible cause.”
Kris says: “Which “bloggers” have attempted to sue CJ Mahaney?”
Drew says: “Other bloggers and their commenters have wanted to sue SGM and Mahaney”
Persona, Yes, John Butler was the Senior Pastor of the Chesapeake SGM when I first arrived. It’s been many years and I don’t recall why he left (I think to pastor another SGM church). I had already left the church when the Butlers came back.
As I was told by current “Redeemer Church” folks, he (and others, I believe) were concerned with the way things were going and confronted the Senior Pastor. Several attempts were made to show SP the error(s), but to no avail. The Butlers then left the church and that’s when the “fast” trickle of folks leaving began.
And Kris, btw, I am also willing to help pay for the cost of keeping this site open if there is a way to do that.
Persona said:
I remember one year that Celebration was only a singles event. I believe this was done for the 1994 Celebration. The previous year they had a problem with children pulling the fire alarms multiple times (the children wanted to hear the announcement voice). The local fire department was reportedly threatening to fine SGM.
SGM would never come out and admit that this change to singles only was due to what happened the year before but people thought that it was why. After all SGM was always a lot about their image as many have pointed out here.
I thought they continued to have more Celebrations there the year after it being a singles event with going back to having everyone come. I am not sure when it stopped.
Sometimes I think the Celebration meetings that SGM put on were very similar to what this group called the “MLTS” Meetings:
https://maranathaministriesrevisted.com/2017/08/15/36-leadership-and-control-in-mcm/
I am sure both the “Celebration” events and the “MLTS” were for similar purposes.
I seem to remember something being said that the Celebration Easts were shut down because they had grown too large and there were not available facilities that could hold everyone. Don’t know if that was actually the truth or just the official explanation,
I believe the investigator hired by CLC made contact with all participants and witnesses and victims named to be associated with the Celebration assault and all of them denied any knowledge of it.
If that incident is fiction, then it calls into question all of the memories involving that plaintiff, which includes anything involving the school, the principals, the kindergarten teacher’s basement and Dave Mayo. At CLC, all that remains is Pam’s Story and the story of Dave Adams. Hundreds of people were aware of the circumstances in the Adam’s story and the ways in which it contradicts the narrative in the lawsuit, but the church loved those children and nobody is going to come on here and trash them to correct any error.
The determination of the investigator was that all of the truthful situations involved police when they occurred, with the exception of Nate Morales.
The other situations could not be corroborated by anyone and the men accused were fully restored to the church. The police also investigated the plaintiff’s stories and found no reason to press criminal charges.
The tragedy of false accusations being mixed with true was very damaging.
1. It destroyed the lives and livelihood of men falsely accused.
2. The outrageous claims turned the focus from abuse of authority and counseling to sex abuse, which really wasn’t SGM’s problem. The abusive authority and counseling model caused them to not handle the few sex abuse cases well, but instances of sex abuse were few and far between.
3. The fictional claims empowered the leaders to boldly deny all accusations…never addressing spiritual abuse.
just saying said, “but the church loved those children and nobody is going to come on here and trash them to correct any error.”
If you look it up, plenty of people came on here and trashed that family. Really maddening.
I have not read a word of SGMSurvivors for a long time but the comment by “just saying” was just brought to my attention and I must speak. I posted this comment on this blog about “just saying/Crumbled” last April. It also applies to what she has written above.
Brent Detwiler says:
April 30, 2017 at 2:22 pm
On February 5, 2017, “just saying” commented on Thou Art the Man under the name “Crumbled.” The blog owner, Todd Wilhelm, contacted me and asked if I’d like to provide a response. I did. Wilhelm posted the response with his own introduction on Feb 14 in “Brent Detwiler’s Factual Rebuttal of Covenant Life Church Apologist.”
See http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/brent-detwilers-factual-rebuttal-of-covenant-life-church-apo.html
I concluded my response with this paragraph. “Crumbled, I’d sure like to know who you are. That is the problem with an alias. You could be a sex abuser. You could be a CLC pastor. You could be anything in between. This much I know, you are not honest! Stop the propaganda!”
Just saying’s dishonesty and propaganda continues and was brought to my attention. That is why I am commenting now. She is a CLC plant, not a truthful source on the conspiracy to commit and cover up the sexual abuse of children by CLC pastors and members.
##
Please read the entire article to understand the extent of lying and misinformation.
Further, the investigator hired by Covenant Life Church was Lars Liebeler. His “independent” investigation was scandalous! I have the complete transcript. There was nothing just about his undertaking. It was extraordinarily biased and prejudicial. Even worse, he withheld incriminating evidence from the report and made no attempt to interview victims. That is outrageous. For example, the victim referenced above.
Moreover, people don’t realize Liebeler was hired as a lawyer for CLC before he started his work. Therefore, he was bound by law from revealing anything incriminating about the pastors or church members in his reporting to CLC.
That is like Hillary Clinton hiring her own lawyer to investigate her email scandal and then have her lawyer report on it (i.e. her innocence). The Liebeler investigation was not “independent”! It was part of the cover up by CLC pastors.
I will be exposing the investigation. His report should not be trusted for good reason which I will demonstrate.
I recently posted “C.J. Mahaney, Covenant Life Church & the Conspiracy to Cover Up the Sexual Abuse of Children.” It is a small section from my unfinished book. It presents the facts – not propaganda. It lays out the condemnation of the CLC pastors by the Assistant States Attorney for covering up Morales’ “heinous crimes.” It also documents Grant Layman’s testimony that he knowingly, intentionally and illegally, did not report Morales crimes to law enforcement like the rest of the pastors.
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/cj-mahaney-covenant-life-church-the-conspiracy-to-cover-up-t.html
Rachael Denhollander (who was the first to courageously speak out in public against Larry Nassar and then worked hard to prosecute him) said this about Mahaney and SGM in an interview she did with the premier evangelical magazine, Christianity Today. Keep in mind she is a lawyer. The comments in brackets were added by the interviewer (not me) for clarity.
“The ultimate reality that I live with is that if my abuser had been Nathaniel Morales instead of Larry Nassar, if my enabler had been [an SGM pastor] instead of [MSU gymnastics coach] Kathie Klages, if the organization I was speaking out against was Sovereign Grace under the leadership of [Mahaney] instead of MSU under the leadership of Lou Anna Simon, I would not only not have evangelical support, I would be actively vilified and lied about by every single evangelical leader out there. The only reason I am able to have the support of these leaders now is because I am speaking out against an organization not within their community. Had I been so unfortunate so as to have been victimized by someone in their community, someone in the Sovereign Grace network, I would not only have their support, I would be massively shunned. That’s the reality. The only reason I am able to have the support of these leaders now is because I am speaking out against an organization not within their community. Had I been so unfortunate so as to have been victimized by someone in their community, someone in the Sovereign Grace network, I would not only have their support, I would be massively shunned. That’s the reality.”
You should read the entire interview at the link below.
My Larry Nassar Testimony Went Viral. But There’s More to the Gospel Than Forgiveness.
INTERVIEW BY MORGAN LEE| JANUARY 31, 2018
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/january-web-only/rachael-denhollander-larry-nassar-forgiveness-gospel.html
I have also written several other related articles on my blog.
Liebeler talked to the perpetrators and believed their false narratives. He did not talk to the victims. That is reprehensible. He also covered up for Mahaney by not asking questions that would have exposed his part in the conspiracy. Nor did he report on alleged sexual sadist John Loftness and his alleged accomplice, Gary Ricucci. He left them off the hook entirely. My goodness, that is where you start an “independent” (cough 100k) investigation. Two CLC pastors were credibly accused of crimes and Liebeler doesn’t even talk about it.
The Lord continues to raise up voices to expose and oppose the evil that occurred at CLC and SGM.
An “independent” investigator was paid by them, then didn’t interview one victim?!?! That is ludicrous!
Knowing what I know personally about abuse, I find the victims’ claims to be credible. On the other hand, I agree that false accusations are quite damaging. I hope that the claims about that Celebration East can be sorted out.
I would love an opportunity to help fund this site’s costs.
This site has been a tremendous help for me to move on from my own history, recognize people’s limitations and not long for a chance to change them, and experience joy.
Thank you Kris and Guy for all your support of this website.
So I think I’ve missed something.
Is there a situation within SGM/SGC/CLC/some other SGM church that parallels the situation within women’s gymnastics and Larry Nassar? Like is there a single perpetrator not yet brought to justice who has a number of accusers, a perpetrator still being protected by SGC leadership? I’m aware of the Nathan Morales case, but I thought that was more of an anomaly, in terms of really overt serial offenders.
Pam mentioned a pedophile ring. Who is involved in this pedophile ring? Who is covering it up? How many kids have come forward with allegations?
just saying said:
As others have chimes in your own words you say “investigator hired by CLC.” Doesn’t that say a lot just right there. CLC hired this investigator and you really think this investigator hired by CLC is going to reveal much if anything that incriminates CLC? Just baffling that you think this way.
Ah, Brent is back. I was pretty sure he couldn’t stay away.
Hey Kris-
So nice to see you back here. I join the people who would be glad to send a little contribution if you choose to set something up.
I think the site matters, especially as a long collection of stories and comments that give a broad picture of SGM going back to TAG-GOB-PDI. At the very least, a great many of your lead articles with thought out comments on the SGM culture are priceless and I hope could be archived somewhere.
Regarding this thread, there are two subjects. One subject is the decades of what SGM was under the oversight of the apostolic team. The control, the pastors/leaders on pedestals, the quenching of the priesthood of all believers, the legalism, the abuse of authority, the “shepherding” doctrines, the accusations, etc. As ‘Just Saying’ posted at the end of the last thread:
“The issue with SGM wasn’t sex. But, how they mishandled sex abuse situations was merely a symptom of how they treated human beings in general. The total devaluing of God’s chosen people.”
That is one subject. Decades of a cult-like, seriously problematic group of churches that in so many ways had leaders who bungled their God ordained responsibility, not just from normal human fallibility that we all have, but often seemingly from darker crueler motives.
The other subject is the sex abuse cases and the cover ups and lawsuits. As tragic as they are, making them the sole focus of what is wrong with SGM is like looking at poison mushrooms and ignoring the huge dead tree they are growing on. All of those cases- every one- was affected by the culture and atmosphere of SGM to varied degrees. A culture, let me say it again, that was upheld and perpetuated and supported by Detwiler as a system. And while he has apologized for his personal sins to individuals in some cases, until he sees the whole recycled 70s shepherding movement system that he helped institute as WRONG, he remains somebody who sees one part of the problem (the sex stuff) but not the dying and decaying undergrowth in which the toadstools fester and grow. And this site covers so much of that SGM culture that it would be a shame to see the site disappear.
Another subject, which must be mentioned, is that lately the main accusation seems to be that the civil authorities were not involved. SGM didn’t call the cops. Bloggers latch onto this.
As countless people including pastors have said to hubby and me, back then nobody called the cops. The most clear reading of 1 Corinthians six is that it is a shame and disgrace to involve the local civil magistrate. Lawsuits are a defeat.
I don’t want to digress on this, it is another subject. Knowing what we know now I think the church has woken up and would call the cops on pedophiles, and hopefully put them in jail for a long time. And nobody I know sees the lawsuit as selfish, but instead a way to force changes in SGM to protect kids. Hopefully the mess has woken up pastors all over the nation.
But the point is, we know pastors who don’t read the blogs and they think the big fuss with SGM is that they didn’t call the cops. SGM tried to keep dealing with serious sin within the church, as 1 Cor 6 says, so they think. And so they feel sympathetic to Mahaney, etc, because traditionally it was biblical to not involve secular authorities if at all possible. Sometimes social workers were hostile to Christians anyway, and that is getting worse.
This is why I hate to lose the record here that the SGM problem is so much bigger and broader than the sex abuse stuff. There are years of stories about the abusive authoritarian system, the legalism, etc. Kris asked a lot of questions about what is going on now, and one thing I can say from experience, is that until people apologize they don’t really change. Until we admit our problems we don’t really get free from them. Mumford and Prince and many of the Shepherding guys admitted they were wrong, and the top down heavy handed authority teachings were wrong, but that hasn’t happened with SGM. So I think we can assume there has been no true change.
Again, Kris, so very nice to see you here again.
I have friends at one of the larger SGC churches in the northeast. From what I gather, quite a few of the established families have left in the last couple years. The odd thing is that people stuck around through the lawsuits and Brent’s documents, but now they are moving on. I cannot get clear answers on what people tell the pastors when asked for the reason they are leaving. It is almost like they do not want to hurt the pastors’ feelings. The people who stay are frustrated that the leadership is in denial about the departures. There is a reluctance to face reality.
Although I admit to having just been on the fringes having once attended for a short time, I do appreciate all the hard work people have put into this. It has been most helpful to me and for that I am very grateful.
5YearsinPDI
In response to your latest comment you seem to be using the passage about lawsuits as the scripture being quoted to justify not involving the police in cases such as children being molested. That is the first I have heard this passage used to justify not involving the police. That passage could be applied to lawsuits but some have even interpreted the passage as minor claims where Paul said why not just be wronged.
One Sunday service at Einstein High School a woman started saying things and interrupting during the worship portion of the service. They forcibly removed the woman. The next Sunday C.J. said he had no qualms about calling the police in that situation.
If anything it might have been the passage about going to your brother “in private” even when someone was molesting a child like it appears they did with Nathan Morales vs report Morales. My take on this is that with SGM/CLC apparently being all about their perception would rather keep things “quiet” and “in house” vs. exposed by involving police.
Steve240, I think that is a powerful story. I have never heard it. Thank you for sharing it.
Steve-
Maybe I didn’t communicate well and was too long winded (ya think?!). The point I am trying to make is that many fine people who don’t read the blogs and didn’t follow the SGM story think that the entire one and only gripe and complaint about SGM is that they try to deal with sin inside the church instead of going to cops.
Their response to that is that nobody used to call the cops. My husband was up close to people involved in several (non SGM) cases years ago and nobody even thought of going to cops. And my response to this is that the SGM problem is much bigger than whether or not you go to the civil authorities.
None of it we knew about was pedophilia. We knew a guy who had murdered somebody in a gang war before he got saved. Another man was guilty of financial crimes, he was excommunicated, but it never went past the church. Another was a pastor who went after adult women sexually and it was kept within the denomination until eventually (years later) he left. Knowing what we know now, in order to protect other people especially children, I think most people would call the cops. Although, when a perp cries and sobs and claims to be so sorry and they will never do it again, I can understand a well meaning but naive pastor keeping it in the church.
But this is not the SGM discussion or problem that I think deserves to be front and center (some may disagree). The way SGM handled things- as you put it-came from caring about how others perceived them, and maintaining the myths about the superior churches and leaders, and not caring about what was best for people under their care…at least after hundreds of stories which are not related to sex abuse, it sure seems that way.
That is my point. The bloggers seem obsessed with not calling the cops, and in light of 1 Cor 6 there is a place for Christians to decide not to call the cops. You and I may disagree, especially regarding pedophiles, but for decades in the charismatic movement things were kept in the church. Paul speaks of going to the authorities as a shame and disgrace, and we can have a theological argument about when we go or when we don’t go to the cops, but at the end of the day is that the SGM problem? Or is the way they handled things a symptom of something deeper and darker than a misunderstanding of how to apply 1 Cor 6?
I just wish the whole focus hadn’t become not going to the cops. It makes it so easy for people to give CJ and SGM a pass. If you don’t know about the whole apostolic team and pastoral shepherding abuse of authority, then you think the whole problem is about calling cops. It isn’t. It is about a church culture that was/is deeply flawed with some major dark strongholds.
Steve240 – Wow, if we are talking about the same thing, I remember that situation at Einstein. The woman was sitting right behind me.
The difference between that situation and the kinds of things 5Years brings up is that the woman was not a member, she was visting that day, and she started yelling things at Larry and/or CJ about how her son went crazy and was committed to an institution, thanks to them (at least, that is my general recollection). I could see it be the case that had she been a member, maybe the police would not have been called. It didn’t help, either, that she was verbally attacking the leaders – I know they wanted her out of there fast.
5yearsinPDI
Thanks for the feedback. There are other cases where the police were contacted. The story I hear about David Adams and his molesting his (at the time) step daughter is that they did tell him to go turn himself in to the police which I understood he did.
There are other scriptures that give guidance on whether to involve the police/civil authorities. One of these is Romans 13 which I know SGM/CLC use to teach. This is what Paul had to say about governing authorities:
Again my thought is when CLC/SGM chose to not contact the police was selective and perhaps for protecting their image when they decided against it.
– With Nathan Morales it was a long time until what he did came out. Thus don’t go to the authorities.
– As I recall Noel’s story the leaders of Fairfax SGM were first contacting their lawyers to see if it needed to be reported this to the police.
I am sure there are other examples.
So why continue? I went back and re-read some of the Stories.
Taylor’s Story really got me as I knew those people. I was there and it all happened right under our noses. The dad in Taylor’s Story was on set up crew and was often behind the stage where other kids would be around.
The only reason I know that Backpage exists was because of Gene Emerson. Emerson was the Cardinal over our archdiocese.
The perp in Noel’s Story showed up at one of the Franchises we were attending.
And there are others that we knew.
For all of SGC’s supposed theological prowess, they couldn’t even discern the difference between a sin and a crime. Christ came to forgive your sin, not to cover up your crime.
No one should ever forget or be unaware of what they are.
You are correct that she wasn’t a member and that might explain the threat of calling the police. She was ranting perhaps really to no one in specific. C.J. was there but I don’t remember Larry being around.
Steve-
“Again my thought is when CLC/SGM chose to not contact the police was selective and perhaps for protecting their image when they decided against it.”
Of course. At this point I would not even use the word “perhaps”.
Bringing up Taylor’s story illustrates my point though, that SGM darkness is way more than not calling the police.
https://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/08/
Let’s pretend SGM is awarded a public announcement as the finest example of churches reporting perps to cops in the USA. The state attorney generals applaud them for turning in perps instantly.
Newspapers write articles about how wonderful they are, in contrast to the Roman Catholic Scandals. CJ Mahaney is a hero to law enforcement and the body of Christ.
Does that change what is in SGM, or was? Lets look at Taylor’s story which Roadwork just referred to.
Then there is Dave Adams. Suppose CJ had called the cops instead of the wife. Suppose SGM made sure he served time in jail. So how much does it matter that when the guy gets out he is in a band with kids, and even sleepovers at his house?
Then there is the lady in this one:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/sex-abuse-victim-asserts-prominent-sgm-pastor-marty-machowsk.html
“As I write this, I’m facing renewed pressure from my husband to “reconcile and reunify” (spurred on by Andy Farmer and Marty Machowski). It’s been 8 YEARS since our separation, and about 6 years since I resigned from the church – and the pressure continues. To date, my husband has turned himself inside out to regain his reputation in the eyes of men – and he’s quite smug in his supportive audience of these two pastors. While it’s true that he’s repented of a few general, “peripheral” issues, [he] has yet to repent of the numerous physical and sexual abuse issues that caused me to leave him and leave our church. My lawyer told me recently: “Doesn’t your church get it — that CYS [Child & Youth Services] will take your children away from YOU if you go back to your husband?!??
(By the way, my husband is happy as a lark that he’s gotten off scott-free and has been reinstated in the church. Although he admitted to me that his problem of pedophilia has gone on for years, he is still unrepentant. He says he “gets such pleasure from his sin…he can’t imagine living without it.)”
Suppose SGM were the first ones to call the cops. As good as it is to ever see a perp get locked up, what about the way they pressure wives to stay with a pervert after he gets out?
There are all kinds of stories on this blog. Eliminate anything having to do with SGM not calling the cops on child molesters, and you still have a long sordid list of awful pastoral actions that range from inept and bungling to abusive and horrific. We were all young once and made mistakes we would not make today. Some grace has to be given to ignorant inept people trying their best but making things worse. But as you grow older and wiser you admit your terrible mistakes and wrong thinking and apologize (in my case, repeatedly to my kids, who thank God love us).
Making it all about calling the cops seems almost like playing into Satan’s hand to me. It aids the cover up of the dark strongholds that operated in SGM completely apart from this subject.
I was thinking about it a lot today. There is something really psychologically disturbed with the top leaders who don’t issue a profoundly apologetic statement for what happened on their watch, especially blaming kids and wives for pedophiles. And when they can’t see that anything in the church wide culture contributed to the accusation and blame games and apologize, it seems so very very creepy to me. It was more than just one bad apple in the barrel, it is story after story.
Well enough, if this doesn’t convince Kris and Guy that keeping a record of all the many posts is worthwhile, I give up :). God bless you all, and may you know much joy in the days ahead. Life with the Lord is meant to be wonderful, and I do pray that any hurting get back all the “years that the locusts have eaten”. Old testament justice was to get back double for anything a thief stole….may you see more than double for all that was lost.
For those that aren’t aware it looks like CLC under their new pastor is going to change their name.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/02/26/covenant-life-church-soon-to-be-christ-church-metro-joining-advance/
Like Kris, I’ve always been cautious in accepting stories of extreme sexual abuse.
https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/girl-told-truth/
The “pedophile ring” that was alleged as a part of SGM always sounded over the top.
Rachael Denhollander, the first public victim of the Gymnastics coach Larry Nassar, posted this long, well-researched response to SGM on her public Facebook page @OfficialDenhollander. Among other things, she skewers the Thaler-Liebeler “independent” report. An attorney herself, her analysis is powerful. Here is just a small quote:Key witnesses regarding the claims against SGM were not contacted or interviewed for this review. This includes alleged victims, known sexual assault victims including some of the victims of Nathaniel Morales, and corroborating witnesses such as parents, siblings and those involved in reconciliation meetings. Thus, this review did not include speaking with many of the very people raising the charges and concerns, or witnesses on behalf of these people.
CLC retained the firm as their attorney, meaning that all information found during the investigation was protected under attorney-client privilege, and was not released. This is the precise tactic used by Michigan State University in the Larry Nassar case, when they retained an attorney to conduct a private review. They rightfully received public scorn for this maneuver and have now submitted to a truly independent review, which has already produced significant incriminating evidence somehow “missed” by the initial review. CLC and Sovereign Grace, by contrast, never have consented to such an investigation.
Sorry if that is confusing, I tried to do the quote-end quote thing to separate out her words!
Rachael Denhollander has provided a devastating response to Sovereign Grace Churches, Inc. for their utterly unfounded condemnation of her. But far more than a defense, she puts forth an “offense” by summarizing the evidence against them. Based upon this evidence, she again calls for an independent investigation. This is an extremely important statement! Here is the link.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/rachael-denhollander/response-to-sovereign-grace-churches/1720170721396574/
Was Rachel ever a part of an SGM ministry? Or is this second hand?
Drew
Read the link that Brent posted right before your comment. It gives Rachel’s background etc.
Drew, Rachelxs post is not a flame-throwing fest, it is reasoned, well researched and redemptive in nature. In the comments, Joe McMullin (yeah, that Joe McMullin, formerly if CovFefe (Cov Fel) described Rachel’s statement as a severe mercy. I pray that someone within SGM receive as such.
Kris, I totally understand where you are coming from. The scene at celebration, as few river, was so horrific that it has to be true, it the person with the memory has mental health issues. It’s hard to imagine anything in between. I cannot bring myself to automatically accept it, either, but I also cannot dismiss it. It needs to be investigated, but likely never will.
The Pittsburgh church more or less had a split when an Acts 29-friendly, ambitious, youbger associate pastor led the church board in what has essentially been described to me as a coup to force out the senior pastor. They hired a 29 year old guy (or somewhere in that neighborhood) guy from outside of the church and out of state to replace him. A lot of the long time members left. It was all handled in a very SGM like manner with the board operating out of Mark Prater’s guidebook of abusive control, trying to limit public forums to discuss what happened, in favor of private meetings because of they were afraid of people sinning. This, of course, is cover for not wanting to answer difficult queations, honestly, in public to face further scrutiny.
Few river = as described via autocorrect.
New article by Brent Detwiler:
New & Indisputable Evidence Proves P.J. Smyth Knew All About Father’s Violent Beating of Boys – He & Pastors Continue to Deceive Covenant Life Church Despite My Appeals
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/new-indisputable-evidence-proves-pj-smyth-knew-all-about-fat.html
Sovereign Grace Ministries name change coming again in 3 … 2… 1
From what I have seen and shared before SGM churches have from their beginning taught a very broad definition of what is “gossip” and “slander.” Thus people were afraid of sharing their concerns or criticisms for fear of being either a gossip or slanderer.
For a while a lot of people were thinking they were the only ones with concerns in “the happiest place on earth.” I am sure at Pittsburgh the leadership in control wanted to limit comments by members that questioned. That is why many times they won’t allow questions in church meetings etc. It will get others thinking.
I’m very familiar with Mrs. Denholder’s background. She is an EXPERT on Larry Nassar, not necessarily SGM. They actually are different.
Regarding Rachel D’s response to CJ – the word “eviscerate” comes to mind. “Disembowel” and “gut” (used as a verb) will also work.
Regarding PJ Smyth and Brent’s post – if PJ isn’t a liar, his ability to forget such events should call into question is intelligence and reliability. Such an unreliable memory is a serious issue for someone leading thousands of people and running an international organization – his responsibilities are too great to not question his reliability (if not his honesty). Either way, he is a problem.
Drew – read Rachel Denholder’s post. She answers your questions herself.
I posted this before on the last thread, but just for the record I think it belongs here.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/january-february/rise-of-reformed-charismatics.html?utm_source=ctdirect-html&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=9455823&utm_content=560458670&utm_campaign=email
When Christianity Today starts their feature on Reformed Charismatics with CLC and Advance, you have to run for the barf bucket. But there it is. The baton is maybe passing from CJ and SGM to PJ and his movement? I am not subscribed so I could not read the whole thing….if anybody can, feel free to post more.
Rachel has done a marvelous job in addressing one symptom of a diseased patient, and how to treat that symptom. Alas, perhaps because she was never actually in SGM, she does not seem to be aware that the things she writes about are only symptoms of deeper problem, and there are decades of other symptoms all rooted in the same systemic abusive system. But why belabor a point that has been made and ignored too many times already.
And I will say it again- Until Brent repents of his 25 years or so as an SGM apostle, and all the legalistic and abusive authority that was endemic in the apostolic team, I don’t think his endless labors will see much success where he longs to see success. My husband and I enabled it in our insignificant way, most of us here enabled it, and God opened our eyes. We had to apologize. Detwiler has to stop demanding repentance from others while he still refuses to admit his own part in many systemic A team doctrines and practices.
Out there…agreed. I personally think it is entirely possible Smyth did block the memories. I know three people (two “Christian”) who look you straight in the face and claim they never said or did things. All of them come from severely abusive backgrounds, and I speculate that there is some dissociation going on- where the personality literally splits as a child to deal with trauma. Also, if you read about “confabulation”, it is the ability to create a false reality that makes one look more pure or better, and to believe and say all sorts of falsehoods sincerely. The ability of humans to block out that which is extremely painful is amazing. So I am not convinced he lied….but if not, then he is mentally disturbed enough not to be qualified to pastor, much less lead an entire movement.
Recently I read the book “Into the Cannibals Pot” about what is happening in South Africa. The author is a white whose father devoted his life to fighting apartheid (which was wicked). But the abused have now become the abusers, and the savagery of some blacks to whites is terrible. Just the other day they voted to take all white land without compensation. But it is the murders that are most horrible. All that to say that when I read the book, I could see why PJ would desperately want to get his family out of South Africa, even if it meant dishonesty. He must have been afraid for his children. No excuse, but it does give you insight into South Africa and how badly some whites want to get out.
Have a blessed day all. Personally I think SGM and PJ/Advance are here to stay, and if at all possible go on with your life knowing that the Lord wants to use you and has a perfect plan for you, and he may allow the tares among the wheat until He comes back.
Drew said:
As previously said read her post. She has done quite a bit of research on SGM and what happened with the SGM sex scandal and lawsuit. A lot more than I realized until I read her recent post.
“I personally think it is entirely possible Smyth did block the memories.” Not a chance. Read my latest post.
New & Indisputable Evidence Proves P.J. Smyth Knew All About Father’s Violent Beating of Boys – He & Pastors Continue to Deceive Covenant Life Church Despite My Appeals
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/new-indisputable-evidence-proves-pj-smyth-knew-all-about-fat.html
Brent-
look at this 31 second clip on Todd Wilhelm’s site:
https://thouarttheman.org/2017/02/03/covenant-life-church-sure-knows-pickem/
(Underneath it says PJ receives a weekly phone call from his father.)
That is 31 seconds of PJ talking about how his father is a godly man who encourages him and expresses his love for him and calls him every week.
I think this is quite possibly a situation that WedMD calls dissociative amnesia:
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociative-amnesia#1
You may be entirely right that he is blatantly lying. But having known people like this, I know what strange psychological disturbances can exist even in professing Christians.
Because you are former SGM I suppose you would call this term I linked psychobabble. Yeah, maybe. Maybe the biblical term is self deception. Maybe it is some sort of inability to deal with painful reality (ie, my father is a brutal pervert), so you create a new reality and block out the memories that don’t fit the new reality (confabulation).
Does it really matter which it is, deliberate lies or serious mental illness? Either way he has no business being in the pastorate.
Are you doing this too at all? Have you created a new reality for yourself as the knight in shining armor to bring justice and truth regarding all things evil in SGM? Have you blocked out the memory of how flawed the A team was in certain areas, and the harm it did to many people?
Hey, I’ve managed to block out some of my own shameful past at times, I think we probably all do.
Drew, could you clarify HOW you are more familiar with Rachel’s background than she could possibly be with the SGM/CLC details? IT’s quite apparent from her most recent post that she has made a greater effort to understand the SGM issues than anyone at CLC or SGM.
Lance Armstrong won seven Tour de France races while totally clean.
Bill Clinton did not have sexual relations with that woman, Monica Lewinsky.
Nathaniel Morales suffered a total memory loss of the many years he sexually abused boys.
And PJ Smyth remembers nothing of all the dealings he had concerning his abusive father.
Really?
Here is what the clear thinking judge at Morales trial had to say:
“Judge McGann didn’t buy what the former minister was preaching either, saying:
“You can’t even bring your despicable self to admit your crime. So, you hide behind your phony self-diagnosis of amnesia. Mr. Morales, you are one pathetic human being.””
As for Smyth’s convenient memory loss, I parrot Judge McGann’ s statement: Mr. Smyth, you are one pathetic human being.
The way I see it Smyth had two choices when his father’s diabolical deeds came to light; he could admit he was aware of the whole sordid affair, admit he had not been forthright with CLC leaders and likely be forced to resign, or he could lie and hope people in the USA wouldn’t dig too deeply into his past, thereby allowing him to keep his job and work visa in the USA.
PJ chose to lie.
When the truth began to surface PJ twice revised his statement. When members of the committee from Zimbabwe called CLC leaders PJ was again faced with two choices – admit he had lied and lose his job, or double down on his lies and say he had total loss of memory.
PJ doubled down.
And it worked; at least it has worked thus far.
Aided by a band of fools in leadership who, according to Mark Mitchell, had conducted a thorough investigation of PJ prior to offering him the job, they sold the memory loss story to a gullible congregation who was only too willing to buy the amnesia story and spare themselves the ordeal of enduring another scandalous crisis.
I personally spoke at length to one of the pastors from Zimbabwe who was on the committee that met with PJ and his father. Regarding PJ he assured me he knew everything. He also said, referring to PJ, that the fruit hasn’t fallen far from the tree. These men, who talked with PJ and CLC leaders after the pastor spoke with me, appeared to have lost their resolve and caved into agreeing that PJ perhaps did not remember. What caused this loss of nerve? I do not know, let me only say that Zimbabwe is a very corrupt country.
I emailed my pastor friend in Zimbabwe after they had talked to CLC and he said he did not wish to speak any further of the situation. I honored his request, but found it rather chilling that a man who originally contacted me to get the true story out suddenly developed cold feet.
I am confident of two things – God is just and PJ has shown himself unfit to be a pastor, much less the international organization called the Advance Movement.
CLC can change their name, call for a reaffirmation of their membership (nowhere is this provision mentioned in their Constitution) and join the Advance Movement, but God is not with them. I would urge Christians to leave this church.
Some people who have a difficult upbringing learn to lie, and it becomes habit. “Difficult” can mean all kinds of things (from the persepctive of a child) from super strict parents to abusive parents. Kids learn to lie to the super strict parents to avoid punishment, and kids learn to lie to the outside world about abusive (or alcoholic, or something the kid finds socially problematic) parents in order to hide the truth out of fear and/or embarassment. And when I say the “learn to lie,” I don’t necessarily mean they perfect the skill of lying. I just mean there’s a reflex to lie.
I find it completely consistent with what I’ve known about other people that PJ is lying to the bricks about this one. I don’t fault him for the original impulse, and I am sympathetic to the difficulty of admitting to lying about this. But this is not about an incidental thing – he leads an international group of thousands of people, and his leadership is predicated on him holding a higher standard than his followers, and then leading them to that place. “Higher” doesn’t have to mean a perfect past, but it does have to mean rising to the challenge when confronted.
I agree he could have blocked memories, but given his age at the time of these meeting in Zimbabwe, this seems a little bit much. Wasn’t he married 2 weeks later? Wouldn’t his wife/then fiance remember him discussing this meeting? Ah – or did he tell her? Maybe that’s another reason to perpetuate the lie.
Out there- yeah. You wonder what his childhood was like.
Todd-
“I personally spoke at length to one of the pastors from Zimbabwe who was on the committee that met with PJ and his father. Regarding PJ he assured me he knew everything. He also said, referring to PJ, that the fruit hasn’t fallen far from the tree.”
Wow. First time I heard that. I will defer to your investigative efforts and their conclusions.
The people I know who I referred to earlier (confabulation, new false realities) are spoken of by those who know them best with words like psycho, crazy, bi polar, nuts, need to be locked up, and other such endearing terms. But generally not as liars. So I would think it is obvious to those who were close to PJ if he is lying or is something more “psycho”. Thanks for posting that.
If there is something demonic operating- the father John Smyth sounds like there was more than flesh operating, like perverted unclean spirits taking hold of him- then it is possible we will see some extraordinary “giftings” start to appear with PJ. “Word of knowledge” a la Driscoll but from the dark side. Maybe what looks like divine healings. That sort of thing was present in the old Jesus movement days. Don Basham wrote a great book about it entitled “True and False Prophets”, later reissued under the title “Lead us not into Temptation.” Just something to keep on the back mental burner if it begins to happen.
I am not the only person I know who though CJ had “help” in how far he seemed to infiltrate into the GC type crowd, and manage to deny everything after stories started coming out. I won’t blame the demonic for people choosing deception, but it probably is part of the package. Still hard to believe how taken in some of the “big dogs” are.
I just pray a lot for true revival. I know God will let tares grow with the wheat, but it is hard to watch this stuff.
Just to clarify, my crack about Driscoll means I think Driscoll’s prophetic information was also from the dark side, not the Holy Spirit.
Saw this on ChristianChronicles.com
Very true … Game Theory would present SGM with the following options …
1) Do nothing (this would be a public admission of guilt and it would completely isolate themselves to their own little world )
2) Fight back … Worse thing they could do. They’d obviously lose the public opinion battle with everyone, and they even begin to lose their closest allies.
3) Repent … It would not only honor the Lord, but it would bring them back in to the right hand of fellowship with those who were abused, those that left because of their derelict behavior and would show the world how sinners are to respond.
***
Q: What trends do you foresee for churches in response to the #ChurchToo movement?
Hinton: I think the churches who don’t want to talk about abuse will be forced to. There are too many survivors who are calling out both their abusers and the churches who gave them protection.
Rachael Denhollander, the first Nassar victim to publicly come forward by name, took on Sovereign Grace Church for their cover-up of abuse. Sovereign Grace was very quick to publicly dispute Rachael’s claim.
Rachael wrote back with a public response to Sovereign Grace Churches, volunteering to spearhead fundraising for an investigation into Sovereign Grace Churches by Boz Tchividjian’s organization GRACE.
Rachael is not alone. Survivors are fed up with churches who blatantly cover up abuse, and they won’t back down. I think what we’re seeing is unprecedented, and it has the attention of the media. This movement will continue to grow in strength and numbers, and churches will have a much harder time hiding abusers in their pews.
***
Question now is what will SGM do? Because they aren’t too smart, I’d bet that they come back and fight this latest response from Rachel. Why? Because they literally CAN NOT HEAR THE HOLY SPIRIT speak to them. They are deaf and dumb (in a biblical sense) to the joys of being able to be led by the Spirit.
Remember, SGM’s primary mission is to protect CJ Mahaney from everything. If they don’t, they lose their job, their titles and their small little world.
I’m actually VERY interested in hearing from the Piper’s of the world. How much longer can they remain silent on this?
Pray that the Lord will use Rachel to bring SGM’s sins to the world so that they repent. That’s my prayer.
Do y’all have recommended resources for those of us seeking to minister to those who were hurt by SGM-affiliated churches?
Somewhereintime,
A) Thank you for sharing this well written post. (I mean what you wrote was well written, though the quotes you shared are good, too.)
B) I think we’ve been hearing loud and clear from the church “leaders” of this world for the past several years. The first stories of lacking grace and love for the very people he was supposedly called to pastor first came out publicly in 2008. They have had nearly 10 years to read all these accounts, come forward to engage the victims of SGM, etc. Instead where have they been? Beside CJ. Promoting CJ. Laughing with CJ. Applauding CJ. I’d call their voices anything but silent.
In the bible, there came a time in Israel where the men of the land refused to lead in a godly manner. What did God do? He used Deborah to lead and to judge, to take an army into battle and to stand against the enemies of God’s people. I suspect God is doing a similar thing now. “But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.” I’m not saying that the men and women here and in the lawsuits are are foolish or weak, but I believe that that is how (as you put it) the Pipers of the world see the victims; see those who left SGM and have the gall to speak out. Foolish. Weak. Yet, as such (if indeed we are such), we are the very tools in the hands of a might, loving, merciful God. He has given both CJ and those who align themselves with him nearly a decade of public voices to repent; to reconcile.
When I think of some of these people, sometimes scriptures come to my mind: Zechariah, “for whoever touches you, touches the apple of His eye”; Matthew “If anyone should cause one of these little ones to lose his faith in me, it would be better for that person to have a large millstone tied around his neck and be drowned in the deep sea”; John “The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep, so when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep”; Zechariah “a shepherd… who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves. Woe to the worthless shepherd who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded”; John “Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. He told those who were selling the doves, ‘Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father’s house a marketplace!'” (one of the few stories found in all 4 gospels.) The word of God can get caught in my mind and stop me in my tracks. I fear Him whilst I love Him. If I were some of the so called leaders in the church of today, I would quake in my boots when those verses were read in my presence, or when they came to my mind.
The bible tells me that there will come a day, at the end of this earth, when we stand before the Lord, and he will separate the sheep from the goats (or is it wolves?), or the wheat from the shaft. (How’s that for mixing metaphors?) Either way, from the way I read it, God tells us that we will be surprised on that day. I’m not saying someone is a Christian and another is not. But I am saying that God tells us that on that day we will be surprised.
If all of this is not enough to make a person fear God and his word, and fear turning their back on the broken hearted, I don’t know what is.
Hopeful
I’m not being sanctimonious here, but I’ve only found solace in reading God’s word. It is helpful to know and hear that those who were abused are not alone. In fact, large percentages of men and woman have been abused at some point in their lives. This is why we and the world needs a Savior… and why we all need to repent, and ask forgiveness from God almighty. Jesus was physically and verbally abused. He set an example for us to not sin, even when were been deeply hurt. Only He can heal our hurt. Only He fully understands.
It’s a great feeling to truly realize that we don’t have to fight our battles alone. The holy spirit will help you. That is His role in our lives.
I’ve been waiting and praying and sometimes kicking my way to healing with SGM. They truly are wicked wolves in sheep’s clothing. They pretend to serve Christ… but the leaders only serve themselves and their god, CJ Mahaney.
Pay for them to repent.
Lord help us to heal!
I noticed the article in the link below was published yesterday, about Rachael Denhollander’s reply to SGM (nice summary of her main points, picture of CJ and one of his gangs). I am not familiar with this website, but I imagine it is officially connected to some branch of the Baptist Church:
https://baptistnews.com/article/witness-larry-nassar-case-calls-evangelicals-double-standard-sexual-abuse/#.Wp63emY-LL8
Hey all,
Just a heads up. The March 17th issue of World Magazine has a great article on Rachael Denhollander’s pursuit of justice regarding the sexual assault she suffered at the hands of physician Larry Nassar and the events that unfolded when she decided to go public.
Eventually, “156 women testified about Nassar’s sexual assaults.”
Additionally, on the last page of the article (pg 35), there is a small piece entitled, “Sexual Abuse and the Church” where she “criticized leadership at Sovereign Grace Churches (formerly known as Sovereign Grace Ministries) for what she’s called an intentional failure to report cases of sexual assault in its network of churches.”
SGC responds by calling her allegations “irresponsible” and damaging to “the reputations and gospel ministries of innocent pastors and churches.”
World magazine concludes by stating they plan to continue following the story as it unfolds.
Personally, I plan on writing World Magazine in an effort to support Ms. Denhollander and to communicate my own experience of profound spiritual, emotional, and psychological abuse at the hands of SGCs, as well as to confirm what I believe is systemic to their entire organization, namely a perversion of spiritual authority, legalism, deceit, lack of transparency, pride, and a general disregard for those they profess to extend care.
I hope others will take time to write a brief paragraph sharing their own thoughts and experiences.
She has also publicly challenged SGC to allow GRACE Ministries to do an investigation of their churches regarding the cover up of sexual abuse. I support that challenge and hope by virtue of the large numbers of individuals and families that have been adversely affected by SGC that WORLD magazine will receive ample evidence, via our testimonies, that Rachael Denhollander is on the right track.
You can email comments to: mailbag@wng.org
Interesting link OutThere. I thought it was well done, and brief enough that people will actually read it. This quote was good:
“Denhollander said the same qualities that brought her wide acclaim in the Nassar case were denigrated as “zeal without knowledge” and damaging to the gospel when applied to her own community of Reformed evangelicals.”
Balaam….you are entirely correct, and this is well put: “what I believe is systemic to their entire organization, namely a perversion of spiritual authority, legalism, deceit, lack of transparency, pride, and a general disregard for those they profess to extend care.”
The problem is, you are up against this :
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/why-we-have-been-silent-about-the-sgm-lawsuit/
At the end of the day I think TGC will win. Challies writes reviews for World for example. But remember David and Goliath, Joshua and Jericho, and go for it :) They need to hear that the SGM problem is not about keeping sex abuse in house, it is far bigger.
5 Years said, “At the end of the day I think TGC will win.”
But at the end of time, God, truth and light will win.
March on, my friends, march on.
Amen Stunned!
2 Chronicles 14:11
Gang…TGC will not “win” this one. You are all going to see the Lord bring them to repentance. Rachel, through the Lord’s hand, helped bring down the mighty leadership of the U.S. Gymnastics organization. TgC is nothing in comparison.
Stunned – I used the very same type of reference to describe how Rachel was being used just this past weekend!
Somewhere in Time – I had the same exact thought about the Bible but did not post it for the reason you mention. I think the best thing anyone leaving SGM can do is to read their Bible and to soak it in. I am going to add that listening to a few Billy Graham sermons to hear about the love of God might also be helpful. That was good news. That was gospel.
Jared Mellinger is either a willing participant in spreading SGM’s lies or a complete fool. He is tweeting about the AoR report in a manner that tries to convince people of SGM’s innocence. Jared, like Mark Prater and others, have sought to peddle the AoR report like it was some holy vindication for being wronged by Internet trolls and, “the blogs.”
In case you do not recall, or were not around, the AoR report was a complete sham. A number of us were told by the guys leading the investigation that they believed SGM leadership had blind loyalty towards CJ and a number of other comments that confirmed many of our observations. That content did not make it into the report. Why? I am guessing SGM had secured a pretty tight agreement that limited either what AoR was to investigate or what AoR would put into their report. My guess is that there is another report that never saw the light of day. The guys from AoR would not respond to any of the communication from those of us who tried to follow-up.
Also, note that AoR was paid by SGM. Not sure how that could ever be considered any sort of “independent” research.
Isn’t Jared Mellinger the same guy who insinuated that reading the blogs was tantamount to looking at porn on line?
The bible says that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. To throw shade on people speaking truth, and call it evil, to me is tantamount to disrespecting God.
>”Jared Mellinger is either a willing participant in spreading SGM’s lies or a complete fool.”
I choose both. In my opinion these guys are doing all they can to protect their livelihood. Let’s face it, the pastors at the larger churches, of which Mellinger is one (CFC) have pretty cushy jobs. On his Twitter account Mellinger recently stated how much he loved his job and wanted to stay there forever.
>”Isn’t Jared Mellinger the same guy who insinuated that reading the blogs was tantamount to looking at porn on line?”
Yes, he said it was worse and he was referring to Brent Detwiler’s material. I believe there was a coordinated effort among SGM leaders to say this about Brent. Mickey Connolly said something similar as did Bruce Chick in a sermon. I can’t get the exact quotes right now as I do not have access to my computer. Also, Marty Machowski, a fellow pastor with Jared Mellinger at CFC (quite an all-star cast at that church) said bloggers opposed to SGM were doing Satan’s work. That is not the exact quote, but I have the sermon recorded.
All this shows me these guys are desperate to keep SGM/SGC alive. When they start calling well-reasoned opposition something worse than porn, tools of Satan, etc. I think it is time to find a new church. This is the type of behavior you find in cult-like churches.
Is CFC part of SGM ministries? I’m now thoroughly confused
Yes, it is. It is actually the church where Mark Prater goes to. Mark is technically the current leader of Sovereign Grace Churches / Sovereign Grace Ministries.
And for the google searchers who want to find info on Sovereign Grace Churches:
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There’s a video on this link in which Rachael Denhollander describes how someone in a position of authority can create an environment where control and fear allow every kind of abuse to be perpetrated. She speaks clearly about how someone gains emotional control over another person and about the fear to speak up. It’s worth a listen. It’s 9 minutes long…she describes how the culture of abuse grew in USA Gymnastics at about the 4:15 mark.
http://amymantravadi.com/2018/01/24/heroes-among-us-brought-larry-nassar/
What churches broke their affiliation with SGM in the last 5 years?
In the link that LetMyPeopleGo just shared Rachel stated:
Isn’t that the truth? Very similar with C.J. Mahaney and others like him. The only thing that will stop organizations from backing Mahaney is a public outcry. Thus we need media exposure.
It looks like Mahaney has withdrawn from one conference.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/03/07/cj-mahaney-withdraws-from-t4g2018-rachel-denhollander-really-got-to-them/comment-page-1/#comment-360522
Just the beginning gang. The Lord is mightily moving against Mahaney and those that have worshiped him as their “god”. He still needs to repent of his MANY sins (blackmail, lying, running away from his church, false humility, etc., etc.).
Next move remains with SGM. They still have to publicly respond to Rachel. With Mahaney’s comments today, his henchmen will load up for another round of “Woe is us … CJ is unfairly judged!”. If Prater doesn’t do so soon, he’ll be ecanned as Mahaney does with those that don’t do his bidding (i.e. Tomczak, Detwiler, Harvey, etc.).
Should see that letter in the next few days or so. Prater is a “company man”.
Queue the Prater charm offensive. I expect Mark will try to persuade Rachel to move the conversation from public to private and make it sound like he is legitimately concerned. At this point, due to his role in the fake AoR report, Mark bears a fair amount of culpability, himself.
And guess who is wiping his brow that he is no longer a part if SGM? Dave Harvey. He is not innocent, here, either
Stunned….lol. that was hilarious.
In case you haven’t read it yet, here is Rachael’s response to CJ stepping down from T4G conference. It is on her Facebook page. Her grace, wisdom, and patience are truly astonishing to me. To God be the glory.
https://www.facebook.com/OfficialDenhollander/
T4G site has already taken down Mahaney’s references for the April conference.
This was a coordinated effort. I’m convinced he was asked to step down.
What did I say? Once you start impacting their brand and their pocket book, Lig, Al and the rest will dump you like a hot potatoe.
>Drew says: “What churches broke their affiliation with SGM in the last 5 years?”
======================
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/supermajority-of-florida-churches-leave-sovereign-grace-mini.html
“Supermajority of Florida Churches Leave Sovereign Grace Ministries
DateThursday, July 10, 2014 at 9:53AM
Over the past two years, 38 churches left Sovereign Grace Ministries, one church plant decided not to join, and two churches were closed. Now a supermajority of churches in Florida have pulled out. The sovereign chastisement of Sovereign Grace Ministries continues unabated because its leaders are unwilling to acknowledge wronging and renounce their deceitful practices.
In 1985, Jenny and I relocated to Daytona Beach for six weeks to help establish the first Sovereign Grace church in Florida. Our son Jonathan was two and our daughter Carolyn was nine months. In 1987, we relocated to Orlando for three months to help establish the second Sovereign Grace church in Florida. During that trip Jenny found out she was pregnant with our third child, Bryan.
In the years to follow, 12 other Florida churches were planted in St. Petersburg, Miami Lakes, Gainesville, Jacksonville, Niceville, Titusville, Sarasota, Tallahassee, Winter Park, Miami, southeast Orlando, Melbourne, and one was adopted in Fort Lauderdale. The Tallahassee church was closed around 2008.
Since 2012, nine of the remaining 14 churches left Sovereign Grace Ministries. The most recent was on June 29. Palm Vista Community Church in Miami Lakes departed what was once a family of churches but is now a bureaucratic denomination with a corrupt leadership team that has staunchly defended C.J. Mahaney in his sin and refused to address the conspiracy to commit and conceal child sex abuse.
Al Pino is a bi-lingual, second generation, Cuba-American. He’s the senior pastor of Palm Vista. I’ve spent some very memorable time with Al in Cuba and with the church in Miami Lakes. Before I left SGM, my responsibilities included overseeing our efforts in the Caribbean though Al did the vast majority of the work.
We sent Pino to Miami in 1997 so we could reach Cuba and the other islands. In 2002, the work in Cuba officially began and then grew. The departure of Palm Vista Community Church is another blow to Sovereign Grace Ministries. So too the departure of Tim Merwin and Sovereign Grace Church in Titusville this past May.”
CJ’s comments stress “defending” Sovereign Grace. If he is right that he and SGM are innocent of accusations, a truly independent investigation would go a long way toward a genuine defense. So the unwillingness to allow an independent investigation indicates to me that he is either lying (he knows they are not innocent) or he is deeply, rabidly afraid of what will be discovered. To me, this is as obvious as a big splotch in the middle of his forehead would be.
But CJ knows he can just make a declaration of innocence and defense, and people will stand firmly behind him, regardless of anything anyone else says. He’s been doing it for decades, and it works. That’s because he has trained (required) his supporters to not read or truly think about anything but what he says and approves of. As long as they don’t actually encounter “unapproved” facts and vet them, he is safe. In other words, CJ relies on the ignorance of his followers to shore up his defense.
This practice is baffling to me because if you claim to love and follow Truth, and you claim to know He who is greater than he who is in the world…what’s the problem? What are you afraid of? The only thing you should be afraid of is lying to yourself because you don’t like what you discover…
Is there anyone on this site who regrets what they eventually learned about SGM / SGC? Many took time to come to grips with the truth, and many left SGM at great price, but I personally do not know anyone who regretted it…
I posted this years ago, don’t feel like looking for links. A very similar situation with bungled leadership in the Mormons went to court and the two victims got payouts of 1.4 million each IIRC.
CJ spent decades skimming tithes and offerings into SGM and his own pocket. You think he wants to pay over a million each to all the proven cases of bungled leadership (like Morales and the others where the perp went to jail because the wife called, not the pastors)?
Who do you know that can give a hundred grand to people as a gift, and buy houses for their kids? Not too many people I’d think.
Out there- what are they afraid of? What’s the problem? I think the answer is obvious.
5Years – oh, I know the answer is obvious regarding the leadership. But what about the followers – what are they afraid of? Most of us here know about that fear. Relationships, community, hopes and dreams – people have invested their hearts and lives in SGM / SGC, and I know disrupting those things can be difficult. But…doesn’t following the truth cost? Isn’t that a fundamental point that has been made throughout the history of SGM? (Especially during collections for building funds…).
As CJ reached once about something I can’t remember, “This…is that.” This hard work and possible disruption is that cost of following the truth.
And I don’t know anyone who regretted leaving…it’s actually not so bad out here :)
As CJ “preached” once…
Out There-
Speaking from experience, people were afraid to leave the one and only group of churches “doing it right”. Reformed doctrine plus charismatic gifts. In retrospect it was barely charismatic and not very Reformed either, but there was a brainwashing going on. When we left, a pastor told us that the church we were going towards would not have the same desire for the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. It turned out to be the best church I was ever in-loads of bible, fervent prayer, warm and friendly people. So much for PDI being better than all the rest. But why would you leave when you have more truth than everybody else? Why leave the superior group? Why step away from the anointing of the Holy Spirit for less of the Holy Spirit?
All cults are the same- superior and special and no Christian group is quite on their level.
Secondly, I posted this before, but when I started reading this blog we had been out a while and were in a church whose pastor wanted nothing to do with the local SGM and their arrogance. We heard stories. But every time I posted I was gripped with fear. I would hear the phone ring and a panic and dread would hit me that maybe it was pastor XYZ calling me to rebuke me. Funny thing is we got along fine in PDI and “left well”, so I didn’t think I had any holds from them, any fear, any concerns. Generally I liked and appreciated them, we just could not submit up the pipeline to CJ. In retrospect I think the fear was more than flesh, it was a demonic hold I had to resist and ignore. It isn’t there any more, but when I had it, it was very strong and gripped me profoundly, like I could feel it holding me and feel anger coming at me. Creepy. Anyway, at this point I think anybody left in CLC is under the influence of more than flesh…probably a lot of SGM people as well.
Brent has a GREAT new blog on Mahaney’s continued lying. Take a look at it when you get a chance.
Rachael Denhollander opened a twitter account. Definitely worth a look.
https://twitter.com/R_Denhollander
I would never think of Brent as an unbiased source on Mahaney.
From the blog post somewhereintime just referred to:
“In August 2004, I called a meeting of all the top pastors in Covenant Life Church and top leaders in Sovereign Grace Ministries to address C.J. on longstanding pattern of serious sin”……
……and more following, on how CJ lied to them all.
So here we have September 2004, one month later, and Brent plays the worship CJ game in front of CLC, misleading the entire church. This was Milestone Weekend when Harris became senior pastor.
But Brent doesn’t have to ever apologize for his own enabling of CJ, the real problem is T4G and their enabling CJ. Uh huh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rdo7eZCKE
Does anybody else see the disconnect here? How many times do I have to keep posting this link until people see that Brent has got to apologize for his own A team garbage and call him on it?
My goodness 5years,
WHat other apostle or leader of SGM have you called out lately???? Why aren’t you calling out Dave Harvey? Why aren’t you calling out Mickey Connolly? Why aren’t you calling out Josh Harris, John Loftness, Grant layman and Bob Kauflin????
What have ANY off those other guys done to bring godly change to SGM? Name ONE!
Why don’t you spend time calling those guys out for once instead of continuously picking on the ONE person that is doing something about SGM?
I’m amazed at your repetitive rants on Brent. I’m not defending him for his past, but for the good that he personally has done for the past dozen years, I’ll be first in line to applaud him.
Brent brought CJ’s deceit to the evangelical world… now Rachel is bringing it to everyone else.
Without Brent, there would be only birds chirping in the breeze about SGM.
Brent allowed all of us to personally read the emails that these clowns wrote THEMSELVES! If they weren’t published, NOTHING would or there. Nada!
It’s obvious you have a personal vendetta for the guy. As I’ve suggested before, please write him personally.
Somewhere-
I would like to see God bless him and grant him favor and use him in a mighty way.
I have talked to numerous godly people including church leaders we know, who have all said the same thing, namely, that Brent was a top apostle for many years and will not apologize for what SGM was under the A team, and many of his writings come off as bitter rantings against CJ breaking the rules, without admitting that the SGM rules themselves (ie, shepherding) were wrong.
I wish his many well researched and carefully presented writings would have a major impact on the modern Calvinist world. I really do. I want to see him succeed. But I don’t think that will happen until he owns up to his part. Maybe I am wrong, I am not God, and maybe God will yet bless his efforts. But so far I think he is largely ignored if you don’t read this or similar blogs. More than ignored, he is referred to with some disgust for raving about SGM without admitting his own part. I can’t even email his stuff to certain people anymore who I used to send it to, he is seen as unrepentant and bitter and they don’t want to read it. I wish they would, I think he probably has the facts on many things.
Brent did his 2004 lauding of CJ in public, it is not private. His excoriation of CJs enablers now is public, not private. It is perfectly appropriate for me to draw attention here and not privately to his own hypocritical enabling of CJ- in front of the entire CLC church- when he refuses to apologize for his own actions back then.
I don’t doubt he was afraid to lose his job and felt forced into doing what he did, he had a wife and kids to support, and I get it. But if we are going to grant mercy to Brent for his enabling behavior, then we have to grant mercy to the other CJ enablers. If anything, Brent’s was worse- he knew the truth, he had seen the truth, he had confronted CJ about many sins. I don’t think T4G sees it clearly if at all, I think they are in deception.
If any of the people you mentioned start to write articles about how bad SGM leaders were, without apologizing for their own part in the authoritarian abusive system, then I will glad to point out their own years of protecting and helping SGM. But they are not doing that far as I know.
Sorry to upset you…..but I think it is good for this blog’s reputation for at least one person to be calling out BD on his own failure to apologize. If we all look like BD’s cheerleaders then we lose credibility with a great many folks out there. They all know he was on the A team for 25 years doing the A team SGM thing.
Drew – no one is unbiased about anything.
Somewhere – I understand your concern (5Years can be unrelenting sometimes…), but be careful, this is the kind of thinking that lays the groundwork for coverups. Brent continues to posture as a leader, yet despite all the times he has explained himself to 5Years and pointed out her errors (and she has owned her errors), he has remained oddly silent about the video. So it is worth revisiting. Likewise, the whole SGM/SGC debacle is not a corruption issue, it’s a flawed philosphy of leadership issue. And it’s a philosophy that Brent appears to continue to adhere to.
Disagreement and criticism are not the enemy of the good…we should be able to stand by each other yet not be afraid to disagree. And we should not be afraid to admit being wrong.
Also, just one technical point – It’s my understanding (seriously, please correct me if I am wrong) that Brent did not “allow” us to see his emails – rather, someone dumped them without his knowledge. To his credit, however, he rolled with it.
And to give Brent credit (because it’s risky) – in his most recent post, he states:
“Here is another example. C.J. blackmailed a family in 1997 by threatening to disclose the sex crimes confessed to him by their son if they left Sovereign Grace Ministries and spoke badly of him.”
Hello, folks, isn’t this a new statement (“sex crimes”) embedded in an old statement? The cautious lack of names suggests it is…
And it raises the question – did CJ, maybe hearing rumors, coerce a confession, or misuse his position of authority to exert undo pressure on a teenager to confess, with the premeditated purpose of using the information to get his father to step down from leadership? It’s just a question – maybe the son initiated the confession 100%, I have no idea. But if he didn’t initiate the confession, then it’s a legitimate question. And given CJ’s subsequent undisputed threat to blackmail, it does not seem like such a crazy idea…
mmmm ….just wondering when Brent became aware of these “sex crimes.” I believe he held quite a high position in SGM at the time.
I understood his blackmail comment to be none other than what Mahaney did to Larry Tomczak. That’s old news, but one of the FIRST things that started me thinking “I gotta get out of this place”.
The video with Brent is EASY to explain … if you’ve been in ANY corporation with leaders like Mahaney, you have to “kiss butt” to stay on the good side of them. Those of you who have been there have a) clearly seen it b) had to do it yourself or risk being “that guy”.
I’m not going to batter down Brent … or Rachel … or anyone else that is calling out the evil sin that exists within SGM. Why????
One last comment, Mahaney has backed himself in to a corner like no one else can. Now that he has declared himself “innocent”, there should be NO REASON ON GOD’S GREEN EARTH to not have an investigation.
If I were innocent of something, I’d say absolutely have the investigation. It better be a 3rd party with no interests involved and I better get my say.
So what’s stopping him?
My answer: GUILT! He knows he is guilty. 100% He knows that they will find him and his cronies lacking. He doesn’t want to hear that. … because he’s so special and the apple of God’s eye (sic).
One last comment that has been in my crawl this weekend …
The silence on Rachel’s comments from the Evangelical community is deafening! Where are those “leaders” that stand up for the cause of Christ? The ones that talk about the unborn, the unsaved, the ungodly?
Won’t they stand up for the sexually abused individual in our community of brothers and sisters in Christ?
Why won’t they?
My only guess is that they are all terrified to stand up against their “heros” of the faith. Those little men who back CJ Mahaney and who know NOTHING about what he did except for what he told them.
I wouldn’t follow those guys in a car to a grocery store let along allow them to speak in to my life. They couldn’t hear the Holy Spirit if they tried.
Oh Lord, help those that have been abused, silenced,shunned and put down. Help those that have been minimized within your church. Please allow them to be heard and believed in their own lifetime! Please bring these men to account for how they have hurt your children.
Somewhereintime,
Other evangelical leaders, especially the “big dogs” at T4G, might have their heads buried in the sand but not mainstream secular or christian media. This story has all the components necessary for them to take notice.
Think about it, this is a hot topic (sexual abuse) right now on the news front. Christianity Today and World Magazine have recently picked up on the sexual abuse cover up related to Sovereign Grace Church, primarily because of Rachael DenHollander’s courageous actions and tenacity to press for an independent investigation of SGC. She has unassailable credibility in the eyes of both the secular and christian communities. That’s why I think it behooves all SGMSurvivors to at least write a short note to World Magazine and/or Christianity Today supporting her allegations and challenge for a third party investigation of SGC.
I wrote my note a couple of days ago and received a prompt response from World Magazine that my comments would be forwarded to the editor for review. They always print reactions/comments of their readers at the back of each issue.
The pot’s been stirred afresh people. There’s a new opportunity afoot to see justice prevail for, not only survivors of sexual abuse in SGM but also for those who suffered spiritual abuse.
Please consider writing a short note.
You can send comments to World Magazine at: mailbag@wng.org
Out There said
I haven’t heard or thought about this possibility before that C.J. Mahaney’s whole motive for getting one of Larry’s sons to confess to what he did was for ammunition Mananey could use in the power struggle the two apparently had. It certainly is plausible.
I am surprised that this possibility wasn’t brought up earlier by someone. Maybe this is due to our “training” to always “believe the best” bout leaders. We may not know the answer to this question this side of eternity. I am sure Mahaney claim he had noble motives.
Jared Mellinger, the lead pastor over at Covenant Fellowship Church in Pennsylvania, … yes, the one that Dave Harvey came from, has tweeted the most ridiculous reasons for not wanting an independent investigation.
Like I said, all of CJ’s shills will now be coming out and doing/saying ANYTHING they can to make sure that an independent investigation will not happen … and it WON’T. What will happen is that CJ and his merry band of followers, will go down with the sinking ship that SGM has become.
Enjoy the following. I didn’t. I spent 25 years in SGM. This is the TYPICAL thought patterns of it’s leaders. If you are still in that church, please get out and go to a church where the leaders follow the Holy Spirit and not men.
FYI … Jared has been a follower his entire life … sorry. Truth hurts.
Here are his points from Twitter:
“I’ve learned there are some brothers and sisters outside my small denomination (Sovereign Grace Churches, SGC) who are requesting an independent third-party investigation of our churches. A few thoughts:
– The knee-jerk reaction for most of us is to assume that whenever a group of people call for an investigation, love and humility will automatically give it. (“The only reason you wouldn’t is if you have something to hide or you don’t care about people.”)
However, among Christians who share a commitment to the pursuit of justice and the practice of humility, there will sometimes be disagreement on whether or not an independent investigation is desirable in a particular situation.
I’ve been thinking about some of the leading factors (not an exhaustive list) that tend to inform opinions on both sides regarding the need for such investigations in a situation like this:
1. Ecclesiology: Should Christian parachurch ministries be called upon to judge churches? Also, which matters should be handled confidentially and locally, and which matters require accountability and communication beyond a local church?
2. Polity: Are pastors/leaders and churches accountable, and is this reflected in local and denominational governance? What do established policies and procedures outline regarding charges against an elder or church?
3. Degree of sin: Have pastors been guilty of abuse, criminal activity, etc.? Or, do the issues instead deal with (still serious but much smaller) pastoral mistakes and failures in the realm of counseling and care?
4. Repentance: Is there evidence that leaders have acknowledged mistakes? Repented where appropriate? That they take seriously the call to handle abuse well? That they are open and responsive to outside input/counsel?
5. Change: Is there any evidence of growth and change? What steps have SG denominational leaders taken to address this area? What is the current teaching, training, policies, and practice of SG churches?
6. Third-party effectiveness: Does outside, third-party involvement in churches tend to resolve controversy, promote unity, and serve all parties? Are outspoken critics generally satisfied with the results? Also, what precedent is set?
I’m sure there are other factors also. And I have thoughts on each of these. But notice that those who call for independent investigation generally do so because of settled beliefs and conclusions in some of these categories.
So I hear, “SG never acknowledged these failures, there have been no pastoral confessions, they refuse accountability, they resist outside input, these issues are not taken seriously, it is a widespread scandal, the alleged dynamics are still in SG churches today,” etc.”
***
This is the type of thought that Brent and Rachel have been up against. SGM is NOT going to have an indenpendent investigation. Won’t happen. This is WHY the fight needs to be brought to the T4G leaders that love and praise Mahaney. A man who is “innocent” … but will fight tooth and nail to not have an investigation. Hmmmmm….
Sorry … I missed the best tweets from Mellinger:
But it is partly because of the plain evidence that proves these (reckless, destructive) statements wrong (along with the ecclesiological/polity factors) that I end up disagreeing rather strongly with the conclusion that an independent investigation is helpful or necessary.
Last (and most important) thought: Even when we differ with critics on the desirability of an independent investigation, we shouldn’t lose sight of the points of agreement among us as believers, and the shared commitment we have to faithfully stand against injustice and abuse.
As a SG pastor, I want to plant my flag there, on honoring Christ, loving others, and defending the weak, never on opposition to critics.
“What does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?”
***
Look and see who liked his post on the “plain evidence”. None other than CJ’s right hand man, Bob Kauflin!
Jered is not fighting for the victims. He is fighting for CJ Mahaney, his job and for SGM. No one else, especially not Jesus.
Circular reasoning always brings you back to the answer you wanted to hear in the first place. Throw in some very detailed but irrelevant points, and you have the makings of a truly politician-worthy non-response.
Nevertheless, Mellinger (and Kauflin, by agreeing) have made a very clear statement to their followers – question the validity of the previous investigation (ie, even suggest Rachael D. may have a point) and you question SGC Leadership, polity, and maybe even the gospel itself (since they supposedly root their “ecclesiology” and “polity” in biblical principles). And if anyone does that, we all know what that means – they will see you to the door, promptly.
One last comment – I know how SGC likes to redefine words to suit the leadership’s needs. It looks like they must have a new definition for “plain evidence.” I’m curious to know what it is.
Years ago, I realized this site could not last forever, but I was glad it was here because I found out that I was not the only one…
Love Brent Detwiler or hate him…he was the instrument of Ceej’s demise, he did expose the Big Dog Calvinists for what they are, and he did substantiate quite a bit for everyone who posted on this site over the years.
These days, I tune in maybe one every nine months or so, and even then only when something catches my eye. Today, it happened to be some self-indulgent Facebook posting by one of Ceej’s minions that caught my eye. So, if you all are not here the next time I check in, I wish you the best.
Steve240
This appears in Concluding Remarks on page 143.
[Steve then included this quote from Justin] “You [C.J. and Steve] never told me when you were almost forcing me to confess my sin, that it would be confidential unless my dad slanders you… You said my confessions to you as my pastor would be kept in confidence… I do not give you permission to disclose any of the things I confessed to you… I don’t know how I can say it any clearer… I just want to go on record as saying that…”
There is no question C.J. and Steve Shank pressured Justin to confess. They may have intended to use it against Larry if needed.
About this call for an independent investigation…..
SGM already did that. They spent supposedly well over 400,000- yes, four hundred thousand dollars- on Ambassadors of Reconciliation.
Both sides agreed to it, enough for many former SGM staff and members to go to meetings and tell their stories. And AoR mediators sat and listened while tears ran down their cheeks and we all expected some level of a just verdict.
Well, the verdict came out, and the bloggers are bad and SGM needed better polity, and maybe I am trivializing a more complex response, but that was the bare essentials of the independent investigation.
Is that really what is needed now? Another one? Isn’t the transcript of Grant Layman enough? Aren’t plenty of stories backed up by police and social workers who investigated and commented on cases enough? Do we really need to see hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on another investigation? Are there more essential secret facts to be exposed, to warrant another investigation? Do you think the big dogs will abide by the verdict if it is not in CJs favor? Did we abide by the AoR verdict? I know I didn’t. So why would they abide by another one that reverses AoR?
A few years ago I bought some of Boz T’s materials. He says that 74% of the time in church situations with perps, the leaders circle the wagons to coddle the perps and the victims get mistreated or ignored IIRC. You think for one split second they would want Boz involved? Never. They will never agree to that.
A lot of people have to learn the hard way. Eventually one hopes that many of the CJ enablers will see the light. It may take something painful for that to happen. But I don’t know that another independent investigation is the answer.
5yearsinPDI. I’ve kindly asked you to contact me for years, but you refuse. I’ve repeatedly addressed your false allegations, but they continue. In like manner, I’ve pointed out your heavy-handed abuse on many occasions, but you have never asked forgiveness. This abuse exceeds that of most SGM pastors. And finally, I’ve had to correct your countless errors that you only rarely “own” (sorry OutThere, you are mistaken). These errors badly mislead people.
For instance, when you authoritatively say above, “Brent did his 2004 lauding of CJ in public, it is not private … in front of the entire CLC church.” Even the most basic research would have shown, I made these comments at a private banquet of friends, not before CLC. Then in typical fashion, you use this factual error to slander me. This has occurred time after time after time. That is why I’ve told people not to trust anything you say.
Well the same is true about the “lauding” of C.J. in 2004. Because you are unwilling to do your research, and would rather deal in slander, you create a narrative that has little to no relationship to reality and is separated from context.
If you want to do something worthwhile, study the brilliant summary provided by Rachael Denhollander and speak out against Sovereign Grace and for the victims.
Response to Sovereign Grace Churches
Rachael Denhollander
March 1, 2018
https://www.facebook.com/notes/rachael-denhollander/response-to-sovereign-grace-churches/1720170721396574/
##
My Honoring of C.J. after My Confrontation of C.J. in 2004
In December 2000, I began to lead formal discussions with C.J. regarding aspects of his character. In 2003, I began to involve Covenant Life Church pastors. In 2004, I called for a meeting between the Sovereign Grace apostolic team and Joshua Harris, Kenneth Maresco and Grant Layman. You can read about it in Response Regarding Friendship & Doctrine (pp. 1-28).
During this 3 ½ years process, I was progressively understanding and discovering C.J.’s sins which were worsening. I loved C.J. and respected C.J. It was tough time for me.
In advance of the August 20, 2004 meeting, I asked C.J. to write up a confession, so he, and we, could be clear on what he was seeing. Here is what he sent us. It was encouraging.
##
From: C.J. Mahaney
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 10:04 AM
To: Brent Detwiler; Dave Harvey; Steve Shank; Pat Ennis; Joshua Harris; Grant Layman; Kenneth Maresco; Bob Kauflin
Subject: Confidential
My friends,
Below is my confession in this form for your critique and evaluation.
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” Hebrews 12:5-6
I am presently experiencing the discipline and chastisement of God as yet another expression of His love for me. How merciful of God to reveal my sin and how kind of you men to be a means of discipline through your correction (Ps 141:5). Though painful this discipline is a loud statement of His love and yours. I trust you feel my gratefulness for your friendship.
I am convinced this discipline was necessary because of the pronounced and pervasive presence of pride in my heart. And I am convinced that my perception of this pride is limited and that we are only beginning the process of discerning and weakening pride in my life. But I am also convinced that with the help of the Holy Spirit, as well as my wife and friends, that I will gradually perceive more of this pride and hopefully grow in humility.
In recent history this arrogance has been evident in the following ways:
• On numerous occasions I have not been easy to entreat or correct.
• I have arrogantly assumed the superiority of my discernment when corrected.
• I can be quick to disagree when I am being corrected.
• I have disagreed with those correcting me before I have sufficiently understood the nature and content of their correction.
• Too often I have failed to humbly ask questions and draw out the one correcting me.
• I have not consistently made the individual correcting me comfortable by inviting and encouraging their correction.
• I have failed to discern the effect of my disagreement upon the one correcting me.
• I can be quick to find fault with the one correcting me thus revealing my self righteousness.
• I have not sufficiently perceived the effect of my words and decisions upon individuals.
• There has been a pattern of sinful judgment toward those who are correcting me.
• I have not communicated the correction of the team to the CLC men, arrogantly assuming the inaccuracy of their correction and wrongly assuming the agreement of the CLC team with my perspective.
The above list is far from exhaustive. It is merely representative and there are many expressions of pride that can be listed under each one and sadly no lack of illustrations for each one. These numerous expressions of pride are offensive to God and particularly serious because of my position. In my position and because of my position I should be an example of humility and very easy to correct. To my shame there have been many occasions in recent history where my arrogance has been pronounced and I have not been easy to entreat. That is unacceptable for a Christian and even more for a leader. So there it is as I presently perceive my sins. This is just a beginning and I am sure it is inadequate.
No confession would be complete without expressing my gratefulness to those who have cared enough to correct me, forbear with me and forgive me. But this confession would become a book if I identified each one who has been a true friend in detail.
I must begin by thanking Carolyn and I simply don’t have the words to adequately express my gratefulness to her and for her unique love for me. There is no one I respect more than her, no one I know who is more discerning than her and no one who cares for me more than her. And there is no one who has been more patient with me than her. And no one has encouraged me more than her. There is simply no one like her. And so there is no one I am more grateful for than her.
And I would like to express my deep gratefulness to Brent, Dave and Steve for their kindness and patience. I think these sins have been most evident to you and sadly manifested the most toward you men. I am so deeply grieved by this. And yet your response to my many sins has been forbearance and forgiveness. I am unworthy of your friendship and you certainly deserve better leadership than I have provided.
And finally thanks to Josh, Kenneth and Bob. Your example of humility is the most compelling I have observed up close and personal. You men are exemplary in the way you consistently and precisely confess your sin, aggressively pursue correction, welcome correction and respond to correction. I should have followed your example but to my shame I have only admired your example. How kind of the Lord to providentially place me with you men (and now Grant and Pat). In whatever remaining years I have left to serve I hope to resemble your example to some small degree. I have no excuse if I do not.
So here is my inadequate (and I am sure incomplete) attempt to confess and describe the sin I perceive at present, express my remorse and once again ask your forgiveness.
“God, be merciful to me, a sinner.”
##
Ten days later, Dave, Steve, Pat, Joshua, Kenneth, Bob and I met with C.J. to begin to discuss these issues. Here are some of the hopeful comments made by C.J. according to the official minutes taken by Bob Kauflin.
Meeting between Apostolic Team and Josh, Kenneth, Grant, Bob
August 20, 2004
• Please don’t draw me into anything I don’t disagree with [This was a mistake by Bob. It should have read “anything I don’t agree with.]. Have found that he agrees with most things that have been presented. Agrees that he thinks highly of himself, a fruit of pride.
• Would have assumed he was more accountable than he was. Looks back and sees that what he was doing was woefully insufficient. Hasn’t just been sitting here, but has been convicted. Agrees immediately that he has a sinful craving for reputation.
• He’d ask more questions, invite them to give him their perspective. Acknowledged he wasn’t humble.
• Feels he has thought more highly of himself, and compared himself favorably with others. Doesn’t think he’s thought unfavorably of himself.
• Sees a whole lot of pride in the past. Wasn’t lying to each group, trying to cover up.
• Doesn’t want to interrupt the conviction that is taking place in his heart.
• Says he’s not comfortable with his own assessment.
• CJ wants to be clear in what he’s seeing.
• Would have loved to have dwelt on each point today.
• Agrees with all the major categories that have been brought to him, except he’s not seeing the last one [not disclosing what is going on in his heart]. Agrees that he can feel condemned when his reputation is assailed.
##
August 20th was a difficult time to be talking about such serious matters because the Milestone Weekend was approaching in September. It had been in the works for six months.
C.J. became the senior pastor of Covenant Life Church in 1979. It was now 2004. He was being honored for 25 years of service in that capacity. The weekend was sponsored by CLC and planned by Grant Layman.
I was asked to speak at a private banquet of close friends on Friday night, September 17. The whole evening was videoed. During my remarks, I honored C.J. for his encouragement, work ethic and commitment to team ministry. This was not a denial of the issues at hand. It was a recognition of things I appreciated about C.J.
It was also not the time to pull back from C.J. We were encouraged by his written confession and apparent openness to our input and hoped things would permanently change.
At the end of our meeting on August 20, I also put into place plans to make sure C.J. and Carolyn were receiving, care, input, and accountability. Here is what I said to Joshua, Kenneth, and Grant. None of this came to pass but I was trying. Joshua latter wrote me to say he bailed on this plan because he was afraid of C.J.
“CJ needs a lot more input from the guys on the pastoral team. Quarterly couples’ times that Josh is leading, starting with CJ. Monthly accountability meetings, starting with CJ … Thinks we need to make sure that the Mahaney’s are cared for first if we’re only meeting quarterly. … Thinks the contact between the A-team and the CLC pastors has been insufficient. For the next year, would like one of the guys on the CLC team to fill the team in quarterly on how things are going, as part of the monthly team phone call. Would probably take an hour. If something significant occurs, positive or negative, Brent would want someone to call him.”
A few weeks after the banquet, C.J. sent us a second confession. I was still in redemptive pursuit of C.J. (“with your help”) for his good.
From: C.J. Mahaney
Sent: Wed 10/13/2004 3:30 PM
To: Brent Detwiler; Dave Harvey; Steve Shank; Pat Ennis; Joshua Harris; Grant Layman; Kenneth Maresco; Bob Kauflin
Subject: Confidential
My friends,
Here are the latest sins I have been graciously convicted of by God and with your help:
• I have at times been sinfully concerned about my reputation revealing the presence of pride.
• I have at times put myself forward in a favorable light regarding accountability, more favorable than the facts support revealing the presence of more pride.
• I have at times been easily condemned and discouraged revealing a love of reputation.
• I have at times thought highly of myself and compared myself favorably to others yet another manifestation of pride.
Thanks so much for your care, correction and patience.
CJ
##
Soon after this written confession, C.J. was exposed for deceitful activity whereby he was turning Joshua, Kenneth, Grant and Bob against me and Dave Harvey by feeding them false and slanderous information. Joshua later acknowledged it. It became apparent the confessions were not grounded in repentance and produced no transformation of character. In fact, October 2004 was a time of demarcation. Thereafter, C.J. began to pursue an aggressive and abusive path characterize by arrogance and deceit. Since that time, I have expressed my love for C.J. but not my respect.
I honored C.J. in September after I confronted him in August, because I still respected him and was hopeful he was changing.
Brent-
Thank you for finally getting back to me and us all about that video.
First of all, the You tube comments refer to milestone weekend, when CJ transferred his pastorate to Josh, and refer to the stage. It never crossed my mind that stage meant anything other than a church service. That was my mistake. I was NOT trying to slander you to call it public instead of at a private dinner….and anyway, even if You tube comments had labeled it as a private speech, it still deserved a response IMO. Public or private, it ended up on You tube. So, thank you for finally responding.
OK, if you were hopeful that CJ was really changing, and you said all those nice things in genuine respect, not as a hypocrite, then I will accept that and drop the subject of the video.
As far as “repeatedly slandering you”, let me be clear. This blog exists for the SGM survivors. It is my opinion, based on all that I have read here, my years in PDI, and on my early charismatic experience in the shepherding movement (not with Larry and CJ, although they spoke at the conferences we attended) that PDI-SGM was guilty of many of the same teachings and practices that operated in the “Ft Lauderdale 5” shepherding movement regarding the authority of church leaders.
It was my personal experience that PDI was more sinfully controlling than even what I saw earlier, although people in other groups (Bob Weiner’s for example) would have said some groups were more controlling than PDI. More or less, the fact remains, that what you call slander is my steady support for people who were mistreated by heavy handed sinful and accusing legalistic authority in SGM. And while you may or may not have been involved in various situations, as part of the A team who wrote the paper on Apostles and how they rule, no matter how sincere you are in your beliefs and how godly you think your heart was, you were part of the problem. You were part of the structure. You were part of an intimidating atmosphere forcing people to obey pastors instead of their conscience before God, or risk being accused of sin, pride, rebellion, etc.
And while I do believe you- I really do- that you would have called cops on perps when you insist you would have, and would not have insisted people stay silent about the perps and not call the cops- never the less you were part and parcel of the heavy handed SGM control that operated. Unfortunately you may have not wanted such control to enable pedophiles, but it did.
I don’t write for you, I write for the survivors. And until you can admit that in more than a personal way (yes, I read your confession about typical personal sins against individuals) but in a huge, denomination wide, structural, undergirding way, you helped make SGM into what it was, with the culture of fear, legalism, leader worship, control, and all the rest, I will continue to think of you as blind to your part in a very sick culture. Bob Mumford finally got it and plastered his repentance on the cover of a magazine saying Shepherding was wrong. I hope some day you “get it”.
I believe you need to do what Mumford did, and publicly renounce shepherding errors and your role in seeing them implemented in SGM. You may have been well motivated, but you were wrong. I am not slandering to discuss this on a blog devoted to people who were under SGM leadership (PDI, GOB, TAG) and are still processing their past, or interested in understanding that past. The teachings of what we call the discipleship movement, or shepherding movement, or The Ft Lauderdale 5, were foundational to to SGM, which makes you responsible.
Thanks you again for your reply and clarification regarding the video.
Thanks for the reply, Brent.
Long, long time reader of this blog, but first time posting. My wife and I attended CLC for about nine years. Early on, we enjoyed the passionate teaching by CJ. But we never drank deeply from the kool-aid culture of (their definition of) submissive stay-at-home wives, homeschooling of kids, and 100% submission to care group leaders. We attended a care group, but never really fit in to the culture of the care group either. When certain teachings were brought forth at these care groups, I often questioned them and introduced passages that seemed to contradict what was being taught. That, of course, was not appreciated.
We sat with folded arms for a few weeks (or was it months?) in the mid 1990s when they imitated the Toronto and Brownsville rolling-on-the-floor, laughing sessions that they claimed were Spirit-led. That was soon followed by the dramatic turn to reformed theology. We sat through the reformed teachings for about a year and decided to politely leave. We met with one of the pastors, explained our reasons, and left on good terms. Never a regret about leaving. We actually remained friends with several couples that stayed at CLC for more than a decade after we left. Imagine that.
The main reason that I write is to inform readers that a new blog post just went up at Pulpit and Pen regarding SGM and Mahaney. If you are familiar with that blog, it is written by a strong Calvinist; some would describe him (them?) as hyper-Calvinist. Anyways, the post is very tough on SGM and Mahaney and is worth a read. The link to the article is pasted below. May God’s presence fill you with joy and peace!
Proffy
http://pulpitandpen.org/2018/03/13/mahaneys-withdraw-tfg-conference-sgm-abuse-allegations/
Interesting post
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/executive-director-of-snap-parents-of-a-sgm-victim-write-al.html
Looks like SNAP is appealing to leaders of T4G about Mahaney.
Thank you Proffy, that was very interesting. Welcome!
I wasn’t familiar with Bryn Jones. (“Mahaney and Tomczak were heavily influenced by a British house church movement led by Bryn Jones.”)
I looked him up and the article was trying to be very favorable, but what I picked up was that whole syndrome of being on a purer higher level of church and holy spirit back to the book of Acts more than anybody else. We should all want to live the best we can for the Lord, but that whole mentality of my group being superior to ordinary mainstream churches and Christians all over the world makes me gag these days. Romans 12 says every member of the body of Christ matters. One more influence on the early days of Larry and CJ that has got to be killed at the root.
Brent posted a tweet with a link mentioning that Rachael Denhollander is going to be on Fox News today on “The Story with Martha MacCallum” at 7pm ET. I think I am reading that correctly about it being tonight….
The program description reads:
“7 p.m. ET: Rachael Denhollander, first accuser of disgraced USA gymnastics doctor Larry Nassar, reveals how she is taking on child sex abuse with the evangelical community.”
Here’s the link to the Fox News page that includes Martha MacCallum’s program for tonight….You have to scroll to almost the end of the page to read about the interview with Rachael D.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/14/fox-news-first-suspense-in-pennsylvania-over-closely-watched-election-behind-trumps-firing-rex-tillerson.html
Did anyone watch the Fox News program with Rachael Denhollander? I don’t have cable, so didn’t see it.
Brent, thank you very much for sharing your experience back in 2004. I think you did something good by doing that, though it may have felt like it was a waste of time, it wasn’t. It’s appreciated and the truth will help bring something good in this whole mess.
Regarding Brent calling the cops:
Brent was ‘in charge’ of the Richmond church when a pedophile admitted his crimes to the leadership there circa 1995. It is my understanding that Brent was the one who instructed GE to call the cops. At the horrific family meeting that I will never forget, GE stated that the perp admitted his crimes to ‘us’ (he didn’t define who was actually present during the confession), ‘thinking we wouldn’t call the police, but of course, we did.’
When the subsequent crimes in other portions of SGM came out on the blogs, I was stunned that the other churches didn’t report, because the Richmond church did report in 3 cases that were explained to the church in either letters or the dreaded family meetings. Three different perps who were members of the Richmond church served jail time. (There may have been others that I don’t know anything about, or maybe there weren’t.) So, my conclusion is that Brent mandated reporting while other, uh, apostles, did not.
I don’t have first hand knowledge, and it’s been a while since I heard this story, but…I was told of one case at the Richmond church in which GE had no intention of calling the cops, but when he assigned someone to counsel the victim, the counselor turned out to be a state/county employee who was required by law to report the crime. According to what I was told, GE still was not on board with calling the cops and tried to prevent it. He eventually called Brent about what to do, and Brent said of course call the cops.
Nickname, I’m glad you brought this story up, again. You had mentioned it before, but I didn’t know if I was remembering it well enough to share. Thanks!
Stunned,
Rachael’s interview on The Story with Martha MacCallum is scheduled for Friday at 7pm on Fox News. It’s mentioned on her husband’s twitter account.
https://twitter.com/JJ_Denhollander
Thank you, LetMyPeopleGo!
“Nickname” and “Outthere”
“I don’t have first hand knowledge…”
_______
AND
“It is my understanding…”
______
You see the problem don’t you?
Nope, I don’t see the problem.
Possibly you don’t.
Could this be the long awaited Tsunami?
Way to go Rachael Denhollander!
Here is the Foxinterview
https://mobile.twitter.com/FoxNews/status/974798978872115200/video/1
Wow.
Here is the full length Fox segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeY_7O5BvD4&feature=youtu.be
So Drew, if SGM is so innocent, why not be transparent? Why do they need to hide?
If CJ used the situation with JT to bribe LT (Am I drawing the wrong conclusion here?) Isnt that documentation of CJ’s personal involvement in covering up abuse? There are tapes, right? AoR listened to those tapes, right? Who arranged for the pastors to move when their sons abused other children? Was Mark Prater involved? Dave Harvey? Steve Shank? Were the pastors of these moves aware of ignorant of why they needed to do a pastor swap?