Rachel Denhollander Appears on Fox News
March 17, 2018 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
© 2018, Kris. All rights reserved.
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Drew
I’d agree with that, but it doesn’t make it any less of a crime. Grant layman KNEW they were disobeying the law. He said it under oath.
I could understand if they didn’t know out of ignorance… even so, the law is still broken .
However, they knew and STILL chose to not report the abuse for the sole purpose of protecting themselves and their precious club.
That decision cost many children and their families untold pain and trauma in their lives.
SgM’s response to them? Who gives a rat’s a**!
Well done godly leaders of sgm, well done.
“However, they knew and STILL chose to not report the abuse for the sole purpose of protecting themselves and their precious club.”
___________
I couldn’t make that stretch myself. I wasn’t there, I really don’t know their hearts.
Well, actually, Drew, there is a statement made in an email by PB written to MP that speaks to your comment. It’s in “Plan C” of a financial agreement they were working out with a family of a sexually abused son. PB mentions specifically that one of the negatives about “Plan C” is that it “Could cause additional harm to our reputation and subsequent loss of support.” I think that lends some evidence to the fact that there was concern about protecting themselves and not losing financial and/or other support. So, you actually don’t have to stretch, nor would you have to judge someone’s heart.
It’s in the same link that Jenn Glover mentioned yesterday after you posted a question.
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/hush-fund-set-up-by-top-sgm-leaders-to-meet-the-demands-of-a.html
The worst thing is that Nathan Morales had multiple other victims after leaving CLC that probably wouldn’t have happened (or at least some not happened) had CLC reported Morales. The victim includes the children of the woman he married out West.
You just wonder what CLC Leadership was thinking. Was protecting the image of their church and group worth a number of boys being victims of Morales?
Drew-
There was a controlling stronghold in SGM that wanted to keep a grip on people. Many felt intimidated and fearful. The leaders did what they did to preserve their hold on people, and covering up sex abuse was needed for their reputation, to keep that hold on people.
As “somewhere” said, “for the sole purpose of protecting themselves and their precious club.”
We knew all kinds of churches back in the 80s and 90s that kept sin issues in the church. I don’t think anybody ever called the cops. It was seen as the responsibility of the church. Like you said, it was schools and other groups too. Summer camp, boy scouts, families…..people didn’t call the cops. They just didn’t. But it didn’t mean they had a controlling stronghold; often they felt bad for victims and were ignorant and inept. ( I will include myself as ignorant and inept. I knew a couple women who were raped many years ago and never even thought of the cops.) Pastors truly cared, but they didn’t call the cops.
SGM could turn around and be the new face of calling the cops, but it would still be for the same reason- to maintain their control over people. To look good. To keep their grip.
Its fair to say you were not there and didn’t know their hearts. But to some degree those of us there could tell. You knew which pastor was tender hearted and kind, and which ones would jump on people instantly. Over time you could tell. A lot of lower rung leaders were as under that stronghold’s grip as the people. Eventually we saw one caring man get degifted and another leave. Pastors either got hard or got out. That stronghold demanded abnormal loyalty.
Trying to make the SGM problem all about not calling cops is a mistake. The problem was wanting to keep a tight controlling grip on people.
My view of humanity – We’re pretty complex in our motives and our heart.
I would find it hard to believe that SGM leadership motives were only evil.
Drew- for the most part, that is true. We all are mixed and complex. A new creation with a heart for God, and the old nature too.
What are the motives though, of a wolf, tare, hireling, or false apostle? The NT describes all of them in the church. False brethren too. We are told to know them by their fruit. Can we do that? Is it possible to recognize such people? How do you distinguish between somebody with good motives who is ignorant or deceived, and somebody with evil motives, if they both bungle situations in a way that causes great harm? If somebody has a pattern of lying, and they are not just getting dementia but lying, what are they? Weak and fearful, or evil? There is a lot to think about and I don’t have all the answers, but once you go to a decent church you can look back and see a huge difference.
We don’t have to guess about their zeal for protecting themselves – they have been front and center with it. Over and over during the last years, SGM leaders have chastised those who did not, “protect the church” or “protect an elder.” This isn’t speculation, it’s fact.
Drew, what is your vested interest in SGM that drives you to choose to ignore evidence that is contrary to the SGM narrative?
Hi Drew, I posted this 2 days ago but I didn’t see an answer. Excuse me if you did, and I missed it. But here’s what it was:
Drew, genuine question, why do you participate here? The underlying message in so many of your posts seem to say, “Please, everyone, shut up and go away now.” They come across to me as really negative of anyone here trying to do what they feel convicted that they should do or to discuss. Can you help me to understand what your motivation for being here is? I’m not saying you don’t have a right to be here and participate, I’m just confused as to what I often see in what you write. Like that time recently when you asked a very direct question about Rachael Denhollander, which seemed to throw her into a bad light, only to say in your next post that you already knew what the answer was.
What’s happening with you which makes you participate here if you just think everyone should shut up and leave SGM alone? I remember the day when people from SGM / SGC and the pastor’s college would allegedly come here and pretend to be someone else to discourage open discourse, and it often feels the same way when I read your posts. Am I way off?
Stunned, thanks for the question.
____
When I write my posts I’m thinking “perspective.” When painful things happen, one good way to heal is to put the painful trauma “in perspective.”
Telling yourself lies [I’ve been victimized by the most evil church/leadership in the history of Christendom] doesn’t really heal.
So I share – perspective.
Drew
I suspect you are a current serving pastor, care group leader, or close family member of your SGMs interior.
My advice to you is to seek professional help from outside your Order. Here’s why:
You wrote,
“If the child victim does not want to go public that needs to be respected. No matter how much counsel they get that it wasn’t their fault, it can be a very embarrassing and difficult thing to have to testify in court and talk about it. That limits prosecution. Even if you think they should report it, and try to get them to so others will be protected, at the end of they day if they want to keep their trauma private you can’t force them to do otherwise. ”
Sorry but this is exactly why a third party, non-church should investigate this group immediately. You are the adult. In protecting these children you and/or the members of your Order have an immediate responsibility to contact local law enforcement. There are and were systems in place to care for victims. These local authorities have deep connections with professional counselors with specialized degrees and experience. Furthermore if you are a true friend to this hurt child then you would walk with them every step of the way. “Going public” does not mean anyone is calling TMZ. That you cannot see this is exactly why your organization must be stopped. You are not law enforcement. You’ve likely never even taken a qualified class in child psychology. You are not God. You do not know what is best for these children.
“PDI, that option has been taken away. It no longer matters what the victim wants. They are no longer allowed to keep their trauma private if they chose to talk to their church staff about it.”
Correct! Come on Drew. Be a friend, not a coward!! I think we’ve seen what keeping things quite “for the victims sake” has accomplished in both churches and many other types of institutions. Here’s the point. The law was broken. Your responsibility is to report this broken law to your local authority.
“If you’re the counselor/pastoral staff, you pick up the phone then and there and call you state child protection team. Then the full bureacracy will get involved and who knows what will happen next.”
Who knows what will happen? Here’s a thought. Test it. See what will happen. Most important, don’t hand off your victim and move on. Befriend them and stay right by their side.
Bureaucracy will be involved regardless of whether your instruction decides to treat it or you have the local authorities treat it. Hiding in any way leaves other children open to getting hurt. The institutional officers that hide sex abuse for any reason are of more harm to children than the b*****d that actually hurt the child. Hiding also causes others to get hurt!
Drew/pastor/caregroupleader/familymember, i know it is hard but just try to see that there is a big world outside of your bubble. Civil servants care for these types of cases in high quantities.
In my opinion Drew, someone needs to shut down your Order to protect the public interest.
I would add a few things here. C.J. Mahaney and Larry Tomczak (now deposed) and other leaders may have started out well with good motives as perhaps seem when they had TAG a teaching only ministry. Then as sadly happens with many leaders is perhaps their success gets to them and their egos and it goes from pure motives to something else. These leaders are blinded by both their success and egos. Also the culture these leaders have produced can be quite insular with few if any willing to tell them the truth they need to hear.
I imagine if you could look deep down inside of most of these leaders they would sincerely think they have honorable motives when in fact many of their actions are quite sad and go against Christ’s teaching. Also they feel their group or movement is so important to God that maintaining and promoting it justifies sinful ways of protecting their group. Hence you see the “end justifies the means” behaviors.
Many think C.J. Mahaney is narcissistic and possible sociopathic in the sense that he has no conscience. If Mahaney is narcissistic as he appears then it is quite hard (short of a miracle) for Mahaney to see how wrong his actions have been.
Drew wrote, “Telling yourself lies [I’ve been victimized by the most evil church/leadership in the history of Christendom] doesn’t really heal.”
Hmmm, as far as I can tell, YOU are the only one here who has ever called SGM or any other group, “the most evil church/leadership in the history of Christendom.” Please, correct me if I’m wrong, but you are the only one who has taken things to such extremes. Which is normally what happens with a straw man argument. The person trying to persuade you creates a hyperbolic statement, tries to put it on the people they are trying to persuade, then claims their own judgement being superior because the hyperbolic statement is clearly hyperbolic. Or rather, they like to create an argument which never existed in the first place, then claim they have the proper perspective, therefore people should really be listening to their point of view, instead.
You, also, wrote, “So I share – perspective.”
Seems to me no one else here has ever made the outlandish claims which you insinuate are being made here, have been made here and continue to be made here. Same as you’ve done with others who have had the courage to speak out.
People who create straw man arguments, also, tend to not actually answer the question put to them, but rather pervert it, answering a part of the question, so as to manipulate people into thinking they have answered in full.
I’ll make it easy on you, Drew.
Are you now, or have you ever been, or has any relative of yours ever been in the SGM’s pastor’s college or any other seminary at all, or have you ever sat under any teaching of CJ Mahoney’s in a class room situation?
I’ve read many articles through the years re: the narcissistic personality disorder and the antisocial personality disorder (which includes sociopathy and psychopathy as one of the articles below explains). I know many of you probably know more than me about them, but here’s 2 quick links for anyone who’s reading and may not be as familiar with some of these terms or if you just want to read some concise summaries of them. They are by no means extensive descriptions of either. But they’re helpful I think.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder
Stunned,
Thank you.
“Or rather, they like to create an argument which never existed in the first place…”
Stunned: Question “Do you….?”
Answer: Nope. Have NEVER, EVER met or listened to anyone in SGM leadership current or past. [ Never heard a Mahaney message on tape, youtube, livestream etc.
I have, at my non SGM Church, sang Bob Kauflin choruses. I have no idea what he even looks like however.
To reiterate; Never met C.J. [ or the others], never heard a message of their’s and have never read any books of their’s. Have never attended an SGM church.
I have no family members or friends who are associated with SGM ministries.
Without the use of popular psychobabble to diagnose; I pretty much agree with Steve240. You start out with an honest desire to build a church or organization that glorifies the Lord and you end up protecting and defending the organization more than glorifying the Lord. It happens to the best of them.
I like Drew. He reminds me of the good people I know who don’t read blogs and all they know is that SGM didn’t call the cops. Big deal, nobody called the cops, you try and deal with it Matthew 18 style as Christians. I Corinthans 6 says it better to do that and not go before the secular judges. SGM is trying to be biblical. John Piper is great and he loves CJ. Detwiler seems psychologically disturbed. Etc.
If we can’t allow and try to address dissenting voices, we end up like “them”. This is why my default setting on this subject is that the SGM problem was not about calling cops and never will be. Then I try to explain what the problem was, usually to no avail. I think if you’ve never known a sociopath up close and personal, it is hard to grasp. Maybe we here are all better off because we won’t be taken in one day by lying signs and wonders and so called great anointings. We’ve seen the false apostle/hireling syndrome and will trust our gut discernment next time around.
Drew – I will assume you are genuinely trying to help. Here is an example of something that maybe highlights the difficulty some of us have with our approach.
In the previous – ..Post? Conversation thread? – you wrote an example of a caveat I gave and a caveat Nickname gave: “I don’t have first hand knowledge,” and “It’s my understanding,” and then you said “You see the problem, don’t you?”
My reply was nope, I do not, to which you replied “Possibly you don’t.” But then you didn’t explain what the problem was. How does that provide perspective?
I only added my caveat because I wanted it to be clear was unable to answer any other questions about the situation. But my source was a primary source, so I had no reason to doubt the basic info. And there are many readers here – including Brent himself – who could and would correct me if they know otherwise.
CJ, Larry, and the whole SGM/SGC leadership had us all hamstrung with some childish notion of truth and what we should talk about. Their intentions may have been good in the beginning, but in the end, they used what should have been guidelines as rules to keep us all under control and prevent us from comparing notes. And once we started comparing notes, then we began to see things differently.
So I made an honest comment that I have no reason to believe is not true. And I made it with a caveat. This is how people get at the truth when others want the truth hidden – sometimes you have incomplete information, sometimes you have rumors, but none of these things is wrong or untruthful in and of themselves. Could the kind of statement I made be used in court? Probably not. But it could be used to gather information and eventually find someone whose statement could be used.
This is why I don’t see the problem with what I said. I have found caveated information and various types of information that cannot be classified strictly as “fact” to be extremely useful in eventually getting at something that is strictly a fact. And it’s been my experience that people who try to shut down such information are either naive or deliberately controlling.
Meanwhile, you offered nothing to help me see the problem or offer me perspective, just a statement that could be interpreted as smug or snarky.
A question I have had for some years; What part did individual Care Group leaders have in the shepperding? If human behavior holds true; I would suspect some Care Group leaders of more rigidity than even the “Apostles,” other Care Group leaders being more flexible than the “Apostles.”
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The political scenario that I can most relate it to was former IRS director Lois Lerner who appeared to target “Tea Party” organizations making it difficult for them to collect money from supporters.
Did Mr. Obama ever call up Ms. Lerner and ask her to be hard on the Tea Party? Heavens no; quite possibly he never even knew what was going on. But she undoubtedly thought he would appreciate her work on his behalf. So she, on his behalf AS SHE IMAGINED IT, went further then what she was asked to do.
How much of that was true of the Care Group leaders? How many ended up pushing mindsets AS THEY IMAGINED IT that did not actually originate with leadership?
I agree that some Care Group leaders were definitely more rigid than others, and definitely less sophisticated about their rigid application than the leaders were; and there was a time when I would have thought some of them were even more rigid than the top leaders. But then I had my own personal run-ins with the very top leaders, and I no longer think that. They were rigid and hard core, too; and though I don’t really know why they didn’t initially appear that way, my guess is they were more skilled in how they presented themselves – and maybe that was just their natural way (which is why we were drawn to them in the first place).
There were a couple of upper level leaders (in my time) who seemed to be actually less rigid, but they were eventually ousted or left. Which is not to say all the ones who left fit that description – but all the ones who fit that description are now gone.
And that was a good question.
Drew,
I find it interesting that you – as someone who acknowledges having no firsthand experience with Sovereign Grace Churches apart from singing Sovereign Grace worship music at your church – have previously attempted to discredit other commenters here for their lack of firsthand experience/knowledge of SGM’s leaders. Could you explain this intellectual inconsistency?
Maybe I’m missing something…but if I’m understanding you correctly, you believe your perspective, coming from a place of zero personal experience, would be more insightful than the perspective of people who were actually in Sovereign Grace churches and knew a lot of these leaders? Like, I sense that you are voicing skepticism about SGM’s issues and defending SGM’s leaders…and this is actually coming from a place of never having been part of a Sovereign Grace church? Are we to believe you have no dog in the fight, so to speak, but think you can offer a better perspective than someone who was there?
Drew said,
Sorry, but that “don’t know there hearts” line is classic SGM-ese for excusing wrong behavior.
That young Rachael is one serious force to be reckoned with.
This statement really stuck out to me:
Wow.
“Sorry, but that “don’t know there hearts” line is classic SGM-ese for excusing wrong behavior.”
Yeah, it’s also very scriptural.
5 Years said, “If we can’t allow and try to address dissenting voices, we end up like “them””
I’m not sure if you’re thinking about me in this (sorry if you’re not and please, completely ignore what I am about to say if that’s the case), but I didn’t finally speak up because there is a dissenting voice here. I’m a big girl and dissenting voices don’t upset me in the least. I spoke up because I have been smelling something fishy here with the illogic being put forward, the conflicting statements, what appears to be a bit of deception (I’m not saying someone has to tell us personal stuff or the color of their underwear, but at my ripe old age, I’m finally coming to accept when I smell deception, even a little bit, it usually means something more is going on than it appears), straw man arguments, and like I said, manipulation and propaganda. People can disagree with me all day long (and often do ;) ) and it’s no big deal. But after quite a while of feeling like the other stuff has been happening, I finally had to speak up.
Drew, we do know their hearts when they tell us. And they have told us, over and over. The talk of protecting the church and protecting an elder was articulated over and over since 2011. Pastors and church boards who chose to question or criticize SGM were shunned for not protecting the church or protecting an elder. The current SGM leader sat at my dining room table and intentionally gave me only part of a story to mislead me and try to quiet my criticism of Mahaney. He repeated the same act with my brother and the church board in CLE. We tried to follow the process in Matthew, first going to him, then going with witnesses, even following their umbilical suggestion of a mediator. The mediator had first hand knowledge of the story the leader used to mislead us and the mediator (a regional SGM leader, at the time) was quite clear that he had no idea how the leader could have had taken that from the situation. Was that leader disciplined for misleading us? Nope, he was promoted.
That is just one snipit. A really small and somewhat inconsequential snout, in the scheme of all that is wrong with SHM. If you would bother to go read the stories in this blog…go back to 2011 and read, you would see that it is quite reasonable to question whether the SGM leaders had evil intent.
Jenn, I wasn’t there. On the other hand I have followed denominational/church politics for a long time. After awhile, they all sound very similar.
__________
I’ve followed the SGM kerfluffle for at least [ 2011 ] that long.
I am sorry Jenn, that you were deeply wounded. I wish I could make it right.
Drew,
All are free to share their opinions. If you are legit, then please don’t feel silenced. Many here are still hurting and coping. Personally I don’t buy your story. Why would you post on this forum for the first time ever; especially during the wake of SGM making national headline? Sorry Drew but I don’t buy it at all.
If readers are watching Drew’s responses, he is asking specific questions where responses could potentially be used to discredit this forum and/or any charges brought against SGM and its past and present ordained and non-ordained members.
I can’t help but to suspect SGM could be planting this type of questioning. Take it or leave it folks but in my opinion I think the sinking SGM ship has accelerated its pathway to destruction. It is only my opinion that merely from a legal play it would be a great strategy for SGM to use this forum as a means to discredit and cast doubt if it fears a forthcoming investigation.
Drew I hope my suspicions about you are inaccurate. But I’m sorry, if it smells like a duck then….
Run4hills, I think you are mixing your metaphors, but it brings some humor, and you still make your point :)
I’m not ready to give Drew that much significance yet. I am curious, though, to know what about this site draws someone for 7 years who is not SGM. To me, this site seems kind of personal. Either you were part of the SGM experience, or you relate to one or any of the various abuses that occur in similar types of religious power structures. The focus of this site is very narrow and a bit repetitive, so I wouldn’t expect someone without an emotional connection to last long. Why do you follow SGM, Drew? It’s not a big deal, I’m just curious.
Y’know…
I tend to agree that there’s something disingenuous about Drew’s comments. Drew, I’d really like for you to answer my question from before:
I personally believe Drew is telling the truth about his non-SGM past. Some of the most vehement SGM defenders are those who came to admire the movement and CJ Mahaney from the outside. For whatever reason, they tend to have a really tough time coming to grips with the movement’s secret gritty past.
This is just my opinion, for as Drew is so happy to point out, I don’t know people’s hearts…but I tend to think there’s a level of pride involved in wanting to believe in one’s church celebrity crushes. We all like to believe we have good discernment…and that our church and our church leaders have good discernment. Particularly if our church has taken the position of supporting CJ Mahaney after his star was tarnished, it feels like there’s more at stake. Our leaders have essentially doubled down on the Mahaney love. They stuck with him even AFTER the dark side was readily available for discovery. Who wants to think their leaders have been snowed?
stunned- wasn’t thinking of you at all.
Kris- I think you nailed it. “Our leaders have essentially doubled down on the Mahaney love. They stuck with him even AFTER the dark side was readily available for discovery. Who wants to think their leaders have been snowed?”
As I have said before, I’ve heard Duncan speak, Carson speak, a lot of Piper, Keller, etc. I so looked up to the Gospel Coalition guys. Dealing with the facts about CJ and SGM was easy. Dealing with the others, especially Piper, took a couple years at least. It can be very painful to realize that men you admired chose deception.
Jenn- first time I heard that. Wow, So sorry.
5 Years, just goes to show you that my ability to read minds is as poor as it has been throughout human history. ;)
HI KRIS
As I’ve noted; don’t know Mahaney, not a Mahaney fan boy. My particular church never references SGM or Mahaney, I don’t actually know any Mahaney supporters. All I know about Mahaney comes from this blog, Jim’s blog – now closed, and Wartburg. I’ve read the stories, I’ve read the reports; read Wikipedia and have followed commenters.
SOMETIMES, but not always, it’s people standing OUTSIDE the trees than can see the forest from a different perspective.
An example from the recent past was the Duke Lacrosse scandal. The narrative; racists, bigoted, obnoxious jocks using their white privilege to rape poor black [ or white ] women. i.e. the team was composed of terrible men.
It was people not involved, like Prof K.C. Johnson, who began to look at the situation from OUTSIDE who saw flaws of the narrative. Ultimately it was outsiders’ more independent perspective that changed the then, favored storyline. The Duke Lacrosse team was actually vindicated per the charges – not vindicated of acting, at times, like obnoxious frat boy types. After all, they hired the strippers to begin with.
Finally, I was listening to Family Radio this morning; the reading is about Samson.
Here’s my question, How the heck did badboy-headcase Samson make into the Hebrews hall of fame?
{ Really God, what were you thinking? ] But there he is; warts and all.
And here I am, warts and all.
5 Years said, “If we can’t allow and try to address dissenting voices, we end up like “them””
I think what 5 Years said is very true in so many ways.
One of the reasons that SGM/SGC became so corrupt and fell IMO so far from being the Christian group they claim to be is they became quite insular in their culture. Part of what caused them to become insular was their not allowing dissenting voices. With that being the case SGM Leaders were around leaders “below” them and regular members always telling these leaders what these leaders wanted to hear vs. things these leaders needed to hear.
Many will say that SGM/CLC leaders never did well with disagreement.
A few psychological concepts that everyone should become familiar with include both “group think” and “confirmation bias.” When you don’t allow dissenting voices you open yourself and the group to one or both of these things happening.
Especially for an individual confirmation bias is good to be aware of where you tend hear and interpret information to confirm what you already believe. With this type of bias it is hard to change your mind even if the facts show otherwise. I am sure this is one factor with so many refusing to want to believe Mahaney is quite the hypocrite he has shown himself to be.
Chicken or egg?
Did they become insular because they didn’t hear dissenting voices or did they want to be insular because they didn’t want to hear dissenting voices?
In other words, sometimes people want power and KNOW that the best way to have it is to go into a little space where they can build walls which will block out the sound of dissenting voices. Egg? Chicken?
We Need an Independent Investigation of Sovereign Grace Ministries
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/march-web-only/sovereign-grace-need-investigation-sgm-mahaney-denhollander.html
SAMPSON – is he not the quintessential Alpha male.
If you look at the definition of Narcisstic Personality Disorder, doesn’t Samson come to mind?
We know he had long tresses; possibly 6-pack abs, buffed biceps and seemed to have a less than egalitarian view of women.
He didn’t even seem all that spiritual; an ongoing nightmare for his folks.
Yet he is Noted in Hebrews 11 – with the other prophets and leaders.
Good question about not wanting to hear dissenting voices. Sadly there are advantages of not wanting to hear or not allowing dissenting opinions. When you do this you get conformance and expediency but there are costs as we have seen including going down the wrong path. The more someone thinks they know it all I am sure leads them to wanting to have it without allowing for discussion and dissenting views.
Also when you have an atmosphere where people can’t share it can lead to what one author calls “denial of peril” where a company or group seeks to deny that things are getting worse and some type of change needs to happen. This can lead to dire consequences.
Not sure what you mean by being in “the Hebrew Hall of Fame.” Do you mean in the bible?
My take on him being there is his actions were a warning to others and perhaps a lesson that even with Samson’s sin he was able to do some good near his death.
Excellent article by the editor in chief of Christianity Today. I honestly can’t wait to hear how SGM will worm their way out of another call to action.
So, Drew…
I’m curious. You say you’re this total outsider with no personal interest in Sovereign Grace churches and nothing at all invested in any of SGM’s stuff, beyond Sovereign Grace worship music. You keep implying you’re this very unbiased bystander.
Yet as far as I’ve been able to tell, NONE of your contributions here have been neutral. Everything you’ve said has either contained elements of defending SGM/its leaders or else seems bent on criticizing or dismissing SGM’s critics. You’ve frequently framed up our conversations about SGM’s issues in wildly extreme terms – for instance, insinuating that people here view SGM’s leaders as 100% bad with nothing but evil intentions (when virtually no one views leadership in such a non-nuanced way).
I guess my point is, you should quit pretending to be neutral. Your comments ALL have had a clear agenda. Whether this agenda is coming from a place of personal circumstantial investment or not, it’s still pretty obvious. You’re NOT some random passerby simply trying to figure out what you think of Sovereign Grace churches/ministries/leaders. You already have strong opinions in SGM’s favor. Likewise, you have strongly negative opinions about the critics.
Stop pretending you’re merely a fair and impartial observer. You’re not.
And understand, I’ve been interacting with SGM defenders for a long time (more than a decade). I know there’s a first time for everything, but I have never before encountered a defender who persists engaging in such a close-minded fashion but truly has nothing personal invested in SGM…whether that’s because they go to a Sovereign Grace church, are close to someone who does, are closely aligned with people aligned with SG’s leaders, or part of SG leadership’s legal defense team.
When I read Drew’s comments, I have found myself going in circles…..
I have thought “oh, sadly, he has been terribly wounded” in response to Drew’s statement:
“…I’ve been victimized by the most evil church/leadership in the history of Christendom…”
Then his references to SGM care group leaders….
Then references to Lois Lerner and the IRS…
Then Sampson in the hall of fame???….
And this response to Jenn G, which I personally heard exactly the SAME line from an SGM pastor:
“I am sorry, Jenn, that you were deeply wounded. I wish I could make it right.”
Drew, whatever your “perspective” here or reasons why you are here — bottom line,
in my perspective you DO hijack and deter the focus of the current Denhollander discussion.
Perhaps, you would be “better served” (!!) to start your own blog, enabling you to go in every direction you deem fit.
P.S.
The Christianity Today article is excellent. SGM is being called upon,by CT, to submit to an
unbiased investigation. This a very public request. The spotlight is increasing upon SGM.
Again, I have had nothing to do with SGM in any way, shape or form. My own battles have been different.
LancasterCaster, thank you for the Christianity Today link.
“…an open wound has been festering in the evangelical community. It’s time for healing to begin.” Amen, Lord Jesus.
As many here have said, it is unlikely that SGM would ever willingly submit to an investigation, but remember…that would ONLY be because God has a better plan. We are watching it unfold, no doubt.
Actually, by the time he sat and lied to me, I was over being wounded by SGM. Instead, my previous experience protected me from charm offensive and gave me clarity and discernment.
I do however believe in accountability and godly justice, both of which are completely absent within SGM.
Jenn Grover, I love this: “….Instead, my previous experience protected me from charm offensive and gave me clarity and discernment.” Yes!!