A Theory of Why Sovereign Grace Churches Seemed to Side With Perpetrators
March 22, 2018 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
The following post first appeared on this site back in 2011. Given the recent fresh attention Sovereign Grace Churches’ issues have been receiving – including Rachel Denhollander’s interview on Fox News as well as the Christianity Today article – I thought this post was worth revisiting. Yes, it’s rather lengthy, but it does a really good job of explaining why Sovereign Grace pastors may have been uniquely primed to take the side of perpetrators over victims. It also makes a strong case for the notion that Sovereign Grace’s dysfunction goes way beyond the alleged coverup of abuse, as terrible as those situations were. For many years, the organization promoted doctrines and practices that on the surface seemed perfectly biblical and orthodox but were actually just subtly twisted enough to be dangerous. The abuse cases allegedly covered up by Sovereign Grace leadership are merely one symptom of the subtly twisted doctrines and practices.
Anyway, here are my thoughts.
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While I am the first to say that any coverup of sex abuse is horrific and evil, particularly when done by a church, I think it would be interesting to explore the mindset behind any such coverup.
What is it about their SGM training that would make SGM pastors respond to abusers in such a way? Why would SGM pastors appear to extend more grace to perpetrators than to victims? Why would SGM pastors believe that they should be the primary source of counsel and support for perpetrators? Why would SGM pastors exhibit a reluctance to get outside help or call upon law enforcement to deal with such perpetrators?
It’s my opinion that SGM’s twisted teachings about sin and the role of the pastor – as well as SGM’s blurring of the lines between “the gospel” and “the SGM church organization” – are what have led to situations where these sorts of crimes seem to be minimized, and perpetrators quickly restored to good standing within congregations.
First of all, SGM holds to the (in my opinion essentially correct and biblical) belief that all problems faced by humanity can be traced back to sin. I say I think it’s an “essentially correct and biblical belief” because if we dig through all the layers of human suffering and misery and downright evil, we are left with almost no other choice but to conclude that humanity is messy because humanity is fallen and sinful.
However, where I would part ways with SGM’s assumption is where SGM’s essentially correct belief about sin morphs into what SGM believes is the remedy for sin.
In SGM’s teachings – and if I wanted to take more time to develop this, I could go back and dig up plenty of quotes from books like Why Small Groups and sermons like CJ’s Happiest Place On Earth, as well as plenty of other resources that are available for the whole world to read and hear – the problem of sin is seen as being addressed by not just the work of Jesus on the cross and His continued presence with us through the Holy Spirit. SGM would say that Jesus’ work on the cross is now being “finished” or “completed” by how Christians relate to a “local” church and how Christians are affected by the work of the pastors in their lives.
In the book Why Small Groups? (available as a free download here) a case is laid out like this:
1. Yes, salvation is through Christ alone, through his atoning sacrifice.
2. Salvation, however, is separate from sanctification.
4. Although, sanctification WILL result anytime someone is “truly saved.”
5. Sanctification cannot happen apart from “biblical fellowship.” I actually am going to go and dig up a quote to back this one up. From Chapter 1 of Why Small Groups? comes this:
Although one’s personal responsibility for sanctification remains paramount, sanctification cannot be accomplished in isolation from the local church. Scripture clearly teaches that sanctification is intended to take place in the local church—and small groups contribute invaluably to this process.
You can read the whole chapter to get an even better feel for how thoroughly CJ and his cohorts view participation in “biblical fellowship” a completely essential element of a person’s sanctification.
6. A key componant of “biblical fellowship” is interacting with people in a way where they freely confront you about your sin and where you humbly submit to others’ assessment of your sin. I would strongly urge people to read Why Small Groups? if they have not already done so, and examine how narrowly and explicitly “biblical fellowship” is defined, and how it almost cannot take place anywhere but in a small group set up and run the way SGM runs small groups.
(By the way – this principle is FOUNDATIONAL if anyone wants to understand the driving force behind Brent Detwiler’s seeming obsession with confronting CJ in his sins. In the SGM mindset, a lack of willingness to submit to others’ assessment of your sin and to acknowledge your sins when confronted with them is almost a sign that you are out of fellowship with God. If we can grasp this, we can understand why in Brent’s mind, CJ’s unwillingness to be confronted was so utterly grievous and dismaying. And why Brent continued his pursuit so doggedly…even as he talked about “grace,” which most Christians understand as letting someone off the hook. In SGM thinking, true “grace” must involve sticking with the confrontation no matter what, because unwillingness to acknowledge one’s sins when confronted would be a sign that the person is not being sanctified…which is a sign that the person could maybe not even be saved!)
7. Also, SGM believes that another essential part of “biblical fellowship” is a person’s continued oversight from his pastor, who also bears the responsibility to continue to confront the person on his sin. SGMers are taught that pastors, by virtue of their higher calling and “gifting,” possess special abilities to perceive a person’s sins more accurately than the person himself. You can read a transcript of C.J. Mahaney’s Happiest Place On Earth sermon here. C.J. has traveled around the country, delivering that sermon to many SGM churches over the years. While (once again) Dave Harvey would now apparently like people to think that SGM does not teach that pastors have special authority over people, that is simply not true.
8. Essential to the SGM understanding of the gospel is a demonstration that one remains keenly aware of one’s “worst sinner one knows” status. I realize that this comment is already excruciatingly long, but I really want to lay this all out in one place, so I’m going to quote from another post:
Deeply embedded in the SGM mindset are some assumptions:
1. All sins are just as vile in the eyes of God.
2. One of the clearest signs of “rebellion” is when a person sees himself as an injured party, because no injury that can be perpetrated against the person could ever surpass the horror that the person’s own sin is in the eyes of God.
3. The clearest sign of a “repentant” person is eager confession of wrongdoing.
Taking those three SGM assumptions, let’s examine Noel’s pastors’ response to her family’s situation. In light of these assumptions, I think we can more clearly understand a bit of what went through those pastors’ minds as they offered more sympathy and support to the perp rather than the victims. Even though the pastoral responses are basically incomprehensible to a normal person, they sort of start to make sense when you think of it in this way:
Because of SGM’s belief that each of us must always be “the worst sinner that we ourselves know,” we basically give up our rights to ANY victimhood, no matter how heinous the crime committed against us.
In other words, even though what happened to Noel’s family was absolutely horrific, SGM’s foundational teachings would say that Noel’s only legitimate “biblical” response would be to examine her own sinfulness and see herself as “the worst sinner” she knows. Her pastors would see it as their duty to direct Noel’s attention first of all to her own indwelling sin, her own wretchedness in God’s eyes. I believe they sincerely think that this is “bringing the Gospel into” everything they do. For them, “the Gospel” is firstly and foremostly about our own sin.
But instinctively, we know that something is jacked up in this view. God’s own Word would tell us that He does see some sins as having broader and more lasting consequences than other sins. Yes, all sin is an abomination in God’s eyes…theoretically. But we all know the REALITY, that if I go out and kill someone, there are far more ramifications all the way around than if I lie by calling in sick to work one day when I’m not actually sick and just want to go shopping with my friends. Both the murder and the lie are sins in God’s eyes and both are wretched, but if you lie to me, I’m probably going to be less upset than if you kill someone near and dear to me.
In SGMville, though, this normal human reaction – one that the even the Bible would seem to support, if you examine how God outlined so many very specific laws and guidelines governing behavior for Old Testament Israel – is circumvented. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been the victim of a liar or a murderer. In your SGM pastor’s mind, you’ve got NO RIGHT to see yourself as a victim, of any sort. In order to “bring the Gospel in,” they’re duty-bound to remind you of your own sinfulness, like it’s some sort of tonic for the normal grief that you might feel because of the ramifications of the sin that was perpetrated against you…like somehow, if I as the victim can just focus on my own badness, I’ll forget that someone molested my child.
So OK. In SGMville, all sins are created equal.
Now, enter the perp. Perp expresses sorrow and remorse for his sin. He truly IS the “worst sinner that he knows,” so such a mindset comes easily and naturally to him. In the eyes of his SGM pastors, he automatically then becomes the “more righteous” person, since his response is the only “truly biblical” repsonse that they can find acceptable.
It gets worse if the victim stands up for himself/herself in any fashion. SGM pastors immediately see this as unforgiveness, which of course is a sin, which then makes the victim even WORSE than the remorseful (and therefore righteous) perp.
Again, I did not think of this myself. Someone else initially posted these general thoughts. But I thought these were some brilliant observations that did far more to shed light on Noel’s pastors’ really twisted and bizarre behavior than just about anything else.
To me, this helps to make sense of why, in SGMville, the victims are minimized while the perps are protected. It’s because in SGMville, the only thing that is really righteous is seeing oneself as “the worst sinner one knows.” If one has had a crime – particularly a heinous crime like child abuse – perpetrated against one, there is NO HONEST WAY that one can authentically and enthusiastically embrace “worst sinner” status in one’s thinking. One instinctively knows that someone else’s sin (in this case, one’s perp’s sin) is greater than one’s own sin. So one naturally raises objections to embracing “worst sinner” status.
SGM pastors sense this and seem to hone in on it, interpreting standing up for oneself as a sign of pride and sin and unforgiveness.
Meanwhile, the perp is over in his corner crying his genuine tears of sorrow. Because he truly IS the “worst sinner he knows” at that moment, he is more righteous, and hence more worthy of protection.
9. We have to factor in SGM’s longstanding distrust of and total disdain for the mental health profession. SGM has long taught that “secular psychology” has absolutely nothing to offer the believer in terms of solving problems. (You can see what was taught to SGM pastors fairly recently – in 2009 – about the “counseling process” by viewing a transcript of that talk. Access Part 1 here, Part 2 here, and Part 3 here.)
Anyway, to connect the dots of all this to the situations where SGM pastors were aware of sex abuse and seem to do nothing to address the problem legally…
If all problems are sin issues, and if the only solution to all sin issues (sanctification) must involve continued “biblical fellowship,” which – most importantly – includes continued confrontation from a pastor about one’s sins…
And if “secular psychology” presents no way for this to continue, but a pastor’s counsel does…
And if a perpetrator has acknowledged his sin to his pastor…
And if it is un-Christian (“sinful”) to ever feel like one has the right to be a total victim, with no corresponding need to focus on one’s own sin…
Then it makes total sense for the SGM pastor to:
1. Appear to side with the perpetrator.
2. Believe that his pastoral counsel is all that is needed.
3. Believe that he is actually better serving the victim through his position, because he is making it more difficult for the victim to pursue what would be sin – i.e. being a victim and “demonstrating unforgiveness” by pursuing justice through the legal system.
4. Consequently believe that through all of this, he is “protecting the gospel” or some such, because the SGM gospel is all about confronting and rooting out sin, never having the right to be a victim, and demonstrating one’s salvation status by the sanctification process of confessing one’s sins – which a perpetrator has already done, therefore making the perpetrator “more sanctified” than someone who is trying to get justice as a victim.
© 2018, Kris. All rights reserved.
This is Water’s husband. I have a question for Steve Shank, Dave Bendinelli,Pete Payne and any other “pastor” or wife that was involved in what happened in the Denver church to my daughter and grandchildren.
My question to them is this: would you council your daughters in the same exact way that you did my daughter?
I doubt I will see any response from them on this site but am hoping that maybe somebody can give a phone number or email site for any of the people mentioned above. I am just learning some of the behind the scenes actions.
What happened Waters?
Waters husband
One thing to realize is that Steve Shank is no longer in leadership. Todd blogged about it here:
https://thouarttheman.org/2016/03/15/i-found-stevo/
It was a strange thing how Steve Shank just up and left.
I guess you don’t care any details but When you use the term about what these leaders did to your daughter makes me wonder if these Denver church leaders counseled your daughter to stay in an abusive relationship like we have seen before within SGM.
A woman we referred to as “Esther” as I recall was in an abusive situation that the now defrocked Gene Brooks oversaw. Gene Emerson was a regional leader also Sr. Pastor of Kingsway church in Richmond VA. I believe this incident with Esther happened at the Virginia Beach Church. The poor woman at the Virginia Beach church was threatened with “church discipline” if she dared leave an abusive marriage.
At least there a few couples stood up for this abused wife.
Well yall…. Today we were organizing old letters and correspondences from during our daughters ‘journey’. There was a set which contained slimey details of pastoral ‘instruction’ and ‘counsel’. Mr had not read them, as our daughter had determined these details were not only personally painful, but would probably cause her father to do bodily harm to the above “pastors”. I’m fine with the bodily harm, but wouldn’t want Mr to suffer arrest etc. —-
Email addresses and phones for these men are unneeded…we remember they speak in SGMese circles. Meanwhile, we know Light is continuing to uncover the years of hidden/unrepented of, evidence of SGM’s twisted polity. Light and Truth are rolling like a river….do you hear it, SGM??????
Mr. Waters – I am really sorry to hear that your daughter has suffered from her relationship and even sadder to hear that suffering was compounded by errant leadership. It’s horrible and inexcusable.
Yoyr post really drives home, Kris’ original point: the sex abuse scandals, as horrific as they are, are not the biggest issues, they point to the real u underlying issue.
Thank you, Jenn G— from both of us~
Waters said, “I’m fine with the bodily harm, but wouldn’t want Mr to suffer arrest etc.”
Waters, I love ya, Girlfriend. Mr. Waters, I’m sad for the pain your sweet daughter and grandchildren have had to suffer through their affiliation with SGM. I am so glad they and you and so many of us are out.
Back at ya, Stunned!
We are thankful to be “out” and thankful our daughter is thriving in redemption!
M/M Waters,
You said, “Light and Truth are rolling like a river…” Amen. Oh yes, it is. It is so good to hear that your daughter is “thriving in redemption.” May our God continue to pour forth His blessings on you and your precious family. I join you and the others here in thankfulness for being out.
Brent has a new post up:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/pj-smyth-mark-mitchell-refuse-to-answer-question-at-members.html
Two leaders at CLC are apparently refusing to answer questions. Then again what else is new.
To PDI,SGM,SGC (and all other past and present aliases) both ordained and unordained:
I continue to be astonished by your consistent arrogance, lack of acknowledgement and your relenting preaches that you are completely right about, well, everything. You truly believe that you are the mere victims of evil.
It is just so deeply rooted into your dna that just can’t see it. Well, “Awake o sleeper. Arise from the dead. And Christ will shine on you.” Ephesians 5:14. Consider the words of the people and their broken hearts. But most important, take individual action to change. You might just find peace among those that have already approached you biblically.
This site is not evil. It’s participants are far from your enemies. But I suspect closer to friends then you may think. Maybe try to extend an olive branch? When have you done this?
Don’t ask me why but I spent time reading the relentless public twitter feeds online from the ordained of PDI/SGM/SGC/ or whatever your name is? (By the way, you can run and change your name but you can’t hide). There is an overwhelming theme that Sovereign Grace is a victim and is under attack by the enemy. Then, social media is evil and don’t slander. Why is this topic so epicenter? What about the widows, the poor, and caring for special needs? Seriously though, have you lost your minds? (rhetorical).
This person wrote,
“Jared Mellinger
@JMellinger
Mar 18
Calvin on Isa. 7: “One would think our enemies are endued with such great power that they could burn and destroy the whole world. To reduce their terror, the Lord declares that what we thought was a burning, a perpetual burning, is only a little smoke that will not last long.”“
Key word here is “enemies”.
Why does your group consistently refer to having enemies and being victimized?
JM, I don’t have any enemies. The church my family has gone to for many years now does not have enemies. The pastors don’t have enemies. Their families don’t have enemies. Most organizations don’t have enemies. Sure there are misunderstandings but the civil people I know (Christian or not) care enough to resolve matters. They choose peace. No one has to agree. We’re all entitled to our own person beliefs. So why don’t you do it?
I am not your enemy Jared. Do you see that for years, the beautiful people that have filled your pews (past and present) have fulfilled the handling of their suspensions and charges against you and your group, biblically? They came to you. They came to you with others. They pleaded, some begged. But instead of reconciliation you chose to postpone, dismiss, and cover. Is responding in this way, biblical?
I’m thinking maybe this is why you have the problems (enemies) that you do?
Do you not see that you are the one’s that created these circumstances? People have nowhere else to turn but to others for help, guidance, empathy, and care. They can’t go to you because you don’t respond and take action.
Jared do you see that the same behavioral traits brought to CJ by his inner circle very much exists in you and is so very deeply rooted among your group?
Sorry Jared, but this site is more about a redeeming love for you and your group. It’s not evil. You are not a victim.
Ball’s in your court pal. It’s your life. If you want to continue the rest of your life hearing these things then I guess keep approaching things the same way.
I have much compassion for you. It scares the living heck out of me but I too can be like you. The awesome thing is that we both know who has the power to change us.
My advice to you is to seize the day lest you choose to continue your journey with “enemies”.
The physical, mental, and spiritual abuse that you and your group have caused your followers, your friends and your families does not just go away with time. To postpone the addressing of the charges brought against you may be an excellent legal defense. But this isn’t business. This is about Jesus. This about the well-being of Gods people.
I guess maybe the real questions we should all be asking is, Will there ever be peace among us? How do we work to achieve that peace together? What things can I do to bridge this peace?
I choose peace Jared. You and your group hurt me and my family. I can assure you of one thing: I’m not going anywhere.
Oh and you’re not the boss of me. I’m the boss of me. God is the boss of me. Just had to get that off my chest because ‘you people’ think you know everything and can tell people how to live and act and behave. Sick!
My temptation is to bully you back, but then that isn’t peace then. Thanks for being a great example of how decent human beings should NOT act. I am all the better of a person from watching your ongoing blunderings. You see, God is using you. God is at work.
And sorry man but you participate in a ton more social media than anyone I know! I have no idea where you manage to find all that time.
Would love to hear a response from a SGM/C (ABCDEFG) ordained person.
PS you can probably refrain from telling me that I should go directly to SGM/Jared directly instead of this site. Already have. And that doesn’t make any sense anymore.
And the easier road was to just say “Oh hell with you.” and just move on. I did that for nearly a decade. But I just still feel so bad for you for some reason!
I don’t know. Maybe I once was blind but now I see?
Run4Hills, WELL SAID!!!!! I would be standing on my chair and applauding if I actually felt like getting to my feet. Here, here!! (Or hear! Hear!)
Some of the lines that hit me hardest (with the blow of a soft feather- sweet and soft, yet still noteworthy):
“Why does your group consistently refer to having enemies and being victimized?
JM, I don’t have any enemies. The church my family has gone to for many years now does not have enemies. The pastors don’t have enemies. Their families don’t have enemies. Most organizations don’t have enemies. Sure there are misunderstandings but the civil people I know (Christian or not) care enough to resolve matters. They choose peace…”
“I am not your enemy Jared. Do you see that for years, the beautiful people that have filled your pews (past and present) have fulfilled the handling of their suspensions and charges against you and your group, biblically? They came to you. They came to you with others. They pleaded, some begged. But instead of reconciliation you chose to postpone, dismiss, and cover. Is responding in this way, biblical?”
“Do you not see that you are the one’s that created these circumstances? People have nowhere else to turn but to others for help, guidance, empathy, and care.”
“Sorry Jared, but this site is more about a redeeming love for you and your group. It’s not evil. You are not a victim.”
So beautifully said, Run4Hills! I especially love, “this site is more about a redeeming love for you and your group.” Wow, beautiful.
And this, “The awesome thing is that we both know who has the power to change us.” AMEN!
“To postpone the addressing of the charges brought against you may be an excellent legal defense. But this isn’t business. This is about Jesus. This about the well-being of Gods people.” Beautiful. Jesus. The well-being of God’s people.
“God is at work.” Amen.
And then you ended with, “But I just still feel so bad for you for some reason!
“I don’t know. Maybe I once was blind but now I see?”
I feel you, Run4Hills. I can’t tell you how often I have prayed for CJ, et al with a heart of genuine concern and not a tiny bit of sorrow and pity. How I wish they could know what it’s like to know how much God loves you to the point that you don’t see people as your enemy (unless they’re legit trying to kill you) but instead be so filled with his love for them that you can’t help but reach out to them. This isn’t a generic loving “people” out there whom you don’t know and can afford to care about. I’m talking about the people you bump up against in every day life or who’ve hurt you. We’ve all known a lot of pain, but I can tell you for sure, I wouldn’t trade that, even if you threw in all the money in the world (or at least the proceeds from their conferences and book sales, etc) if it meant not being able to see God’s such deep love that I couldn’t help but respond with love to those of us around me who are messy just like me. God’s love really is that pearl worth any price and I wish that these guys could ooze love toward those they think are their “enemies” to the point that they couldn’t help but reach out with a kind hand. What a different world we’d have if those who say the name of Jesus could know Him in that way.
Thanks for your words, Run4hills. They have truly inspired me to look toward HIM and your words have filled my heart today.
Run-
I have never in my life seen JMellinger’s twitter feed. I took a quick skim back through the month of March, ie, his reaction to Rachel and the editorial by the editor in chief of Christianity Today.
He is obviously hooked on twittering yet is slamming people being on social media and labeling the affair as trolls and gossip, etc, at great length. The guy seems insanely and obsessively defensive. Creepy stuff. But all he does is expose himself to anybody trying to figure out the truth.
Gossip is sin, scripture teaches that. But discussing public statements in the public arena, or discussing sermons or blog articles in the public domain, is not gossip. That is acceptable (as long as our motives are good, such as to understand the bible or truth, or to help protect people). If SGM puts out public statements, it is not gossip to respond. Rachel is not gossiping. I can’t tell if JM is just crazy with fear of seeing SGM go down, or if he is truly a brainwashed dolt, or a sociopath. I don’t know the guy.
What a soap opera.
I believe it was Jared Mellinger that equated reading blogs like this equivalent to reading porn.
http://ern-baxter.blogspot.com/2011/11/divisive-worse-than-porn-foolish.html
Thus sadly Jared’s words aren’t all that surprising.
Jared is an SGM hardliner and the company line is that reading , “the blogs” is participating in gossip. Jared acted like a bully when SGM pastors spoke out by signing the letter that asked leaders to slow down, in the midst of the crisis.
He was given too much power at too young of an age.
I would question though, whether Jared has real power. He is just another puppet that fit CJ’s “pretty boy” mold. The part about being too young, yes, I agree 100%….. but again, young and impressionable enough to tow the line. He was never a real leader and never will be unless he gets out of the bubble.
At least Josh Harris admitted as much…. I think he referenced the fact that he felt like he lived life backwards and needed to go back and fill in the gaps in order to mature.
Oh… back to Jared…. he would make a good Starbucks manager.
I don’t know how people stand it.
Our pastor is in his 50s, real nice grown kids, and his wife is so kind and friendly. He always talks about Jesus and the bible, and the church helps poor people and several missionaries. And nobody ever once said a word about being better or more special than any other churches. People are busy with their lives and you don’t have to let church meetings drain all your time and energy. It feels so….normal.
Normal, my Friend? I’m afraid normal is too scary for some who don’t know God’s great power and love. Everything must be locked down and controlled, or life may spin out of control.
How nice to not have to control others or life. That job is too big for me, but just right for Jesus’ hands.
Here’s the puzzler to me. If I’m born into a family with an evil father, am I a victim of the father or am I ultimately the victim of a sovereign God who placed me into that family?
smells like a duck…
Drew…. is there an option here where you can choose to not be a victim? That may help you with your answer.
JOB – the victim.
He was the kind of Dad that made sacrifices on his kid’s behalf after their parties in case they had unknowingly sinned. He was a righteous man.
God lets Satan loose on Job and his family.
His kids aren’t molested, they are killed.
His worldly possessions evaporate before his eyes.
He is physically miserable and his wife turns on him.
He says he will not complain, but ultimately he does.
[ If only there was a court for me to plead my case.]
God says, I’ll give you a court hearing.
Then God throws approximately 77 – rather sarcastic – questions at Job.
Job repents; acknowledges God’s sovereignty.
As far as we know, God NEVER answers Job’s questions. [ no closure ]
So the puzzler; was Job a victim of Satan or of God?
Seriously Drew, do you not understand the doctrine of the sovereignty of God over Satan?
Job 1: The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
God took it all away from Job. Satan is but an instrument in God’s hands.
The disciples saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning. Jesus bound the strongman.
Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God…. Satan entered into Judas by God’s plan.
Joseph and his brothers- you meant it for evil, God meant it for good.
I can guess what you are driving at. SGM has no victims, it was all God’s plan. Right?
Do you understand paradoxes? God is three, God is one. God saves, yet calls us to repent and believe. God predestines, yet we are morally culpable for unbelief. God is pure mercy, God is pure justice.
Victims are truly victims when Satan and evil sin against people. Sex abuse victims are truly victims. Yet Satan does nothing apart from God’s plan. Nothing.
I think we can only understand it in light of knowing we will spend eternity in heaven in glory, and the wicked will burn in hell forever. One day we will understand it all.
Every sex abuser will be judged for their wicked deeds, 100% morally responsible, with zero blame on Satan or childhood or their own wounds. Yet God himself allows the work of Satan and evil.
If you are trying in some way to say that Calvinists cannot hold SGM or the perps responsible for the sex abuse cases, sorry dude. You might want to read Charles Spurgeon who is really good on this subject. Two parallel train tracks that to us appear to never meet, yet in God they do, perfectly. Faith alone can rest in the paradox of two truths together. Those who do wickedness are responsible for it, even as Satan is God’s tool who does nothing apart from what God permits.
Run- yeah, quacking……
“I can guess what you are driving at. SGM has no victims, it was all God’s plan. Right?”
_______
Nope, I wouldn’t say that; I would say when it comes right down to it though, if bad things outside your control happen [ such as your parentage ] your “beef” is actually with God.
If evil happened, a sovereign GOD must have allowed it though we may not understand His purposes.
And once, again, we see how the neo Calvinists abuse the doctrine of sovereignty, treading too close to fatalism
Drew you sure you aren’t SGM? Sounds like something most of us have heard, before.
Troll ignored…
Fatalism? No it’s more complex than that but, does anybody here know the mind of God?
__________
The problem of explaining human suffering, It’s not a new problem.
“There is a God; I am not he.”
“I would say when it comes right down to it though, if bad things outside your control happen [ such as your parentage ] your “beef” is actually with God.”
So, if an adult authority figure raped or molested you as a child, shut up because your beef is with God. Don’t press for justice or to see them go to jail.
If a pastor in a church believed the crocodile tears of the pedophile playing repentance, and showed mercy to them while criticizing the wife and victims, then shut up about it because your beef is with God. Don’t blog about it, talk about it, write up detailed analytical responses to it like Rachel did, or press for an investigation.
You have no beef with any church leader, your beef is with God.
I was thinking about writing a detailed scriptural rebuttal beginning with the book of Amos, but I just don’t want to spend time beating my head against a brick wall.
Drew- let me make this simple. Active pedophiles should be shot, but since we live in the USA, they need to go to jail for a very long time. And turned into eunuchs before they are let out. And pastors who coddle them while kicking molested kids under the proverbial bus need to be defrocked. If you are really and truly on the side of letting them go unprosecuted and unexposed, because our beef is with God, then you are one very very sick and blind dude.
Drew, Thanks for presenting your thoughts. In my opinion you are certainly entitled to use this site as a means to share your voice. Unlike the current SGM ordained and unordained, I remain open to thoughts that differ from my own. I don’t agree with you but I love you no matter. Personally I think society would be a whole lot better off if you were immediately thrown in jail.
As for me, my preference is to refrain from theological debates on this site. Religious discussions are not my draw. I come here not to hate, not to judge, and not to cause divisions. I come here to protect, care for, fight for, and be a voice for those that have no voice; ie the vulnerable and naive. To me it’s my duty and there is no alternative. It’s what I think “I’m called” to do. Whether this “call” is from God, Mother Nature, or the (wo)man in the moon is irrelevant to me. My heart tells me it’s right.
There are firsthand reports of a current ordained person at CFC in Pennsylvania that has had inappropriate contact with teenage girls under the age of 18 for as long ago as twenty years.
For the well-being of current and future children, if an ordained minister had inappropriate contact with you in the past then please consider coming forward by posting your story. You will remain anonymous and you don’t have to provide your name.
I’m just wondering, could it just be that the reason why these guys admit to nothing is because they are aware of far worse?
There are many other firsthand stories on a number of fronts that haven’t been exposed yet but they aren’t my stories to tell.
So back to Drew. I do trust God but I also think I will be judged and one day my actions will be accounted for. If you were me, what would you do?
and if anyone thinks I’m out of line, then please let me know and don’t hold back. I can put my big girl pants on.
“I’m just wondering, could it just be that the reason why these guys admit to nothing is because they are aware of far worse?”
===================================
I suppose it could be.
Or it could be that they are sociopathic, degenerate individuals who know they would be serving time in prison if they admitted to their evil deeds.
“Active pedophiles should be shot,”
or stoned, at the very least. The O.T. made that very, very clear.
God hates that kind of stuff.
But Drew I have no idea if it’s still “active.” So now what would you do?
“But Drew I have no idea if it’s still “active.” So now what would you do?”
I have insufficient knowledge to make a judgment.
Drew, What knowledge do you need to make a judgment? I have the ordained persons name. I have the names of some of the girls. I have the dates and places these events occurred. Should I post that here? Would that help you? Please tell me what information you need to make a judgment. I need your help working through this one.
“I need your help working through this one.”
Not really.
Run- do you mean somebody on this list?
http://www.covfel.org/about/leaders/
Just for absolute clarity, what does this mean? “There are firsthand reports of a current ordained person at CFC in Pennsylvania that has had inappropriate contact with teenage girls under the age of 18 for as long ago as twenty years.”
Do you mean he was 19 with a 16 year old girlfriend, and then 21 with a 17 year old girlfriend, in a somewhat common these days fornication scenario….but then he would say God got hold of him and he repented and has been serving God ever since?
Or do you mean as an ordained minister, while claiming to be a Christian living for the Lord, he was actively taking sexual advantage of girls? Was he on staff?
I would see a difference in those two scenarios- one would hope that in the first case he apologized later for his immorality, but true repentance and true salvation can come to the lost.
I don’t know that you can say more unless the girls themselves asked you to. They may want to stay private and you have to respect that, even if you think they should come forward.
For what it is worth, I believe you.
Drew, then it’s confirmed. You are not here to help anyone but to further your own agenda. I feel sorry for you dude! May God have mercy on you.
“Drew, then it’s confirmed. You are not here to help anyone but to further your own agenda.”
Actually what’s confirmed is I don’t make quick judgments about scenarios I know nothing about.
Not exactly sure that is an agenda.
5 yrs-
1. Yes, on that list
2. The inappropriately contacted, now adult, told me directly and as adults that they were 16 and younger when the events took place
4. The ordained person would have been 15-20+ yrs older than the 16 yr old.
5. Yes, on staff
6. Thanks for helping me with this. I don’t want anyone to get hurt so I’m grateful for your help. Im think I should respect their silence. For now I guess I’ll just pray they decide to come forward on their own
7. There’s absolutely no reason why you should not believe me! I’ve got better things to do with my time then to spend time writing up long posts to create false cases against potentially innocent people! That is evil and one day God will judge all my sins.
Drew I asked you what information you would need in order to help me and you chose to dismiss me. That hurt!
Run- if you know, really know, and are certain that the snake never went back and apologized and got excellent counseling help, then if I was you I wouldn’t hesitate to put the staffer name out. That’s me. If it was protecting future girls (and he would be petrified to do it again once his name was out) it would be a good thing. Plus right now it places every other staffer in the “potentially guilty” category, so by even putting out two initials you are least exonerate the rest of them.
I’ve been in situations where I heard something sordid and they didn’t want to say who, and my response was always that now a lot of folks are under suspicion to me. Better to name names once you let out this much.
I could be 100% wrong. I would not want to see Kris and Guy opened up to a lawsuit. So I guess I would write to them privately first. Maybe others here have opinions also.
When I say I believe you, I guess what I was trying to say is that I believe the girls who told you. Generally victims are afraid to tell because they think nobody will believe them. By the grace of God I was never raped or molested as a child, but I know many who were, and they are are afraid of not being believed. Good chance Mr. CF Staffer will deny it. Sorry to not be more clear.
Great prayer burden today about all this….The CT editorial, Rachel, then this. Thinking about Boz (good guy), Dever and enabler crew (bad guys) and the confusion out there. We really do need an investigation. I felt a heavy burden to pray. Still do.
Run4hills,
As a former member of CFC, my heart aches reading your report. I can’t tell you how much I love many of the people who used to, and still go to CFC. And twenty years ago, i knew a lot of the 16 year olds there, quite well. To think that one of them was “pursued” by someone a lot older than them makes my stomach turn. I spent many years serving at camp, etc. To know that one of God’s precious creatures was put in that position makes me queasy.
I don’t want to get into detail here, though I have in the past if you want to do the footwork of finding it. But I have somewhat extensive experience in many sides of… I want to be careful how to phrase this.. similar issues as to what you are talking about. If you’d like to contact me privately, you can reach me at nolongeralone1@gmail.com. I promise, you don’t have to reveal your identity to me (though if you were there twenty years ago, we may know each other.) And you don’t have to reveal anyone’s information. I can give you feedback, whether it be general or specific, if you’d like. Like I said, unfortunately, I have a lot of experience walking through similar situations.
If you’re not sure you can trust that I am me or that anything you share with me is safe, I believe 5 Years may be able to vouch that that email address is me and anything else you may need to know. I recognize that to many of us, anonymity is important and I suspect you want to protect your friend’s identity, while also helping him or her.
In all this, I really see God in the love He’s put in your heart for those who are hurting. Be encouraged, you’re walking toward truth, in love.
“Drew I asked you what information you would need in order to help me and you chose to dismiss me. That hurt!”
Sorry about that.
Drew said: “Actually what’s confirmed is I don’t make quick judgments about scenarios I know nothing about. Not exactly sure that is an agenda.”
Willfull ignorance is a tool used for cultivating and promoting an agenda.
Drew replied to Run4Hills with : “Sorry about that.”
Further evidence you prefer ignorance, you prefer only to promote your agenda (“I don’t know enough”) rather than have a genuine back and forth.
Yes indeed, I am happy to vouch for that email above as belonging to stunned. Her experience is out there somewhere, and is a gripping story. Suffice it to say that she is the perfect person to talk about how to show compassion on the soul of a sex predator while ensuring that justice, and protecting others, happens.
Gonna be quite the staff meeting at CovFel this week. You know they read here. You know somebody has already informed them that this blog is alleging one of the staffers went after underage girls young enough to be his daughters. You know that on some gut level even if they want to dismiss “Run” they can’t. Maybe they know, it is very likely they do, but it has been covered up, so now they will be sweating that names will come out. Time for JM to issue more warnings about the evil blogs. Time to talk about Satan attacking. Maybe we will see somebody feel led by the spirit to resign and go back to secular work? Never a dull moment with this gang.
Earth to SGM- if you ALWAYS tell the truth, you will never have to worry about what you said before, or about the truth coming out. It really is a preferable way to live. Really. Harder in the short run maybe, but in the long run it is a joyful rest to tell the truth.
Run4Hills! Scratch that! I wrote the wrong email!!!
The correct one is notaloneanymore1@gmail.com
So embarrassed! I only use the email for this site, which I seldom do anymore, so I got it wrong!
A thousand shades of red,
Stunned
(5 Years, can you, please, let her know I got it wrong- Ugh, this brain some days.)
As has been the case with SGM…. their sins will find them out. I do not mean any disrespect to any of the commenters or “survivors”. But….Posting ambiguous accusations that make suspects out of the entire leadership team at CFC is an unnecessary cheap shot and beneath this blog. Restraint is in order. May God give us all wisdom and discernment, and strength to those hurting.
Thanks for clarifying stunned. I was thinking my memory is getting foggy when I looked at the first email. I am not in private contact with Run, but she will see it.