June 2018
June 9, 2018 in Sovereign Grace Ministries, Sovgracemin
From Guy:
I just read an interesting post (albeit about a year old) concerning this site. Apparently someone came to the conclusion that Kris and I were:
– dead
– plants from SGM
– jerks that basically gave up on our followers.
We aren’t dead.
We aren’t “plants” from SGM
And we aren’t jerks.
I travel extensively and failed to renew this domain. It expired, and I renewed it again. We’ve been at this for well over 10 years and are invested in you guys. We won’t “disappear” on you without notice, but to be honest, we have lives, jobs, children and those are priority.
We love all of you (even the haters). Don’t buy into rumors…
Guy
© 2018 – 2019, Kris. All rights reserved.
Steve240 – I understand that there is no one size fits all when it comes to homeschooling. And that public school is indeed inefficient. But the schools in northern and western Montgomery county provide every opportunity for those who make good decisions, and most importantly, they impress upon young people what it truly means to compete, an essential faculty in an ever increasing knowledge based economy.
I concede this is wholly anecdotal, but it burns me up when I see a kid like Mahaney’s kid, born on third base and to an upper middle class lifestyle, with every privilege available, not being able to navigate any kind of higher education. Maybe it is really difficult to Mahaney’s son, but it is foreign to me how with that kind of start he could not readily grasp academic success. This is not to blame homeschooling or whatever school CLC ran per se, but boys and young men in particular are often only motivated by rigorous competition and the larger world out there.
Well one thing to realize about Mahaney’s son is that he wasn’t homeschooled at least in high school as far as I know. He went to the Covenant Life School high school with the exception of one year as I understand. That one year Mahaney’s son didn’t go to the CLC school he went to another school due to allegedly being caught smoking Marijuana (other kids caught were allegedly expelled).
Here is an old post about this:
http://sguncensored.blogspot.com/2011/02/cj-mahaney-covering-his-sons-sin-and.html
Thus you can’t blame homeschooling for the son “not being able to navigate any kind of higher education.” I imagine with Mahaney’s son being the “pope’s” son was given a lot of favoritism when at CLC high school than regular children so I doubt this possible favoritism was good for him in the long run. I am sure just being in CLC as the pope’s son wasn’t that good for him either.
I am also sure the covering up of his son’s pot smoking didn’t help in the long run. It also wouldn’t surprise me if C.J. Mahaney was in denial about his son’s problem. I had one leader who was located at CLC claim this pot smoking was investigated and that there was no evidence it occurred. I have always wondered if this leader was flat out lying to me or really thought that Mahaney’s son wasn’t doing this.
I imagine his son’s problem was more due to his pot smoking which I heard was quite big according to at least one good source and then later his drinking including his DUI arrest (shown in the above link). Sadly it looks like Mahaney’s son followed in C.J.’s footsteps of drugs or at least marijuana and drinking. Lets hope that this eventually stopped.
Though I see your point with homeschooling and would be curious to know how well home schooled kids typically do in college compared kids that aren’t it doesn’t look like this applies with C.J.’s son.
If you haven’t noticed I haven’t used the son’s name. Now that the son is out of the “family business” I don’t think he should be identified by name.
One thing in general that has been a trend is that enrollment and graduation from college is becoming more and more of a problem for males. As I have read the enrollment and graduation rate is around 45% so Mahaney’s son isn’t alone.
I can think of so many other factors that could have influenced his decision to finish college or not; recreational pot smoking or drinking would not be among them. If you think homeschool or church school culture negatively impacts peoples’ views about college, and you think that is an important subject to investigate, go for it. But you should try to talk to him directly and get some facts. Otherwise, it seems pointless (and weird?) to speculate about him.
And sorry if I sound short with you, I don’t mean to – as the parent of multiple college age kids, there are really so, so many factors that affect whether someone is in school or not, that unless you really know the person, it is next to impossible to know the reasons. I think it is a worthwhile discussion to have about what goes on in homeschooling or church schooling, in general, and whether college is promoted as a next step or not. But some of the other issues mentioned are issues that can drive a kid to go away to school, just to be somewhere else besides home, etc.
Just a thought: I wonder if CJ would have responded positively to the corrections of the local congregation (CLC) in those early years, maybe the temptations in the later years, would have not been laid at his son’s feet.
My brethern test all things.
I concede that the Mahaney kid facts are anecdotal. And are not probative of anything much. I don’t wish him ill, rather, it would be nice to see a kid like that get free. Unlike most CLC kids, I come from nothing. No father, addict mother, deep poverty. After a life wishing I had a nice family, I cannot imagine not making use of it. Moreover, the success I had in getting out of that mess was in consciously avoiding bad choices (sin), and leading a homeschooling isolated life wouldn’t have enabled that decision making or any capacity to fiercely compete. Obviously a jaundiced view on my part. I was a top level NCAA scholarship athlete, could have never reached that level competing against small church league or homeschool kids. I don’t care much for the pastor athlete legend currently in Louisville. I knew of no homeschool athletes competing in my day. One more recent guy stands out, a national champion from over 10 years ago with a terrific work ethic, but who flamed out with injuries (probably the luck of the draw). In any event, public schooling and leading a robust religious life are not incompatible. And to direct people to do it is risky where inter-connectedness is essential to compete and survive. The issue isn’t just homeschooling- it goes to the matter of the exercise of cult-like control.
Just want to chime in about homeschooling- My daughter was homeschooled for most of her life. In her senior year she took all community college classes while working part time. She applied to 5 excellent colleges and got scholarships to each one. She did great in her 1st year of college (socially and academically). Others that graduated with her got into great schools too- Vanderbilt, Yale, UVA to name a few. She and her friends are social, well adjusted, and can hold jobs as well as conversations with adults.
People homeschool for various reasons. Our local public high school is 2nd to the bottom for college readiness in Montgomery Co MD- which is one reason why we chose to homeschool. There’s also the benefit of taking community college classes while in high school. We didn’t exclusively homeschool. We have our other two teens in private school.
I’d be really careful marginalizing or stereotyping homeschoolers. They’re individuals with strengths and weaknesses just like public and private school kids- and just like us adults. They don’t want to necessarily be labeled as a “homeschooler”, because they are so much more than being defined by the way they are educated. Afterall, do we define other students as “private schoolers” or “public schoolers”? I was a public schooler, but I don’t think of myself that way because my identity is in Christ, not in how I was educated. If we’re all believers, who are we to judge how each of us is called to educate our kids?
Rogermortimer,
My heart aches when I think of that little kid you once were, without much in the way of support until the school system helped you out. I wish you had some more loving support around you when you were young, but I am grateful for what you did find.
I am the product of public schools, as are all of my family, and I am a huge fan of the idea of a community coming together to help educate every child. I, also, recognize that one size does not fit all and for some kids private school, parochial school or homeschooling may be the best option for them or their family. But, wow, what a story of how the school you went to changed your life. I am very grateful you had that opportunity.
In my public school, we had a very wise principal. I remember that he encouraged every student to take the SATs, even if they didn’t consider themselves to be academically minded. He wanted to make sure that no student who belonged in college didn’t go because they just didn’t believe in themselves. Yet, he very wisely would say that those who chose trades were just as smart and valuable to society. My favorite line of his, and what has stayed with me my whole life was, “If a society doesn’t value their plumbers as highly as their philosophers, then neither their pipes, nor their philosophy will hold any water.”
I agree with him wholeheartedly. I’m an ivy league grad, but I don’t think the completion, nor even the attendance of college/university is a value higher than any other attainment. I was raised by a genius whose work is in more than one Smithsonian Institution Museum. He taught me that the gentlemen who picked up our trash each week were no less worthy of our respect than the president of the United States, and that their jobs were no less important to our society. (I would argue that the people who remove our trash have a bigger impact on our lives than the guy or gal sitting in the White House, but that’s just me. ;) )
And given the current economy, and where most economists see it heading, and given the horrific cost of college nowadays (and even if it were free, I’d still feel this way), college is not the best choice for everyone’s future. Many people go far and farther without a college education. I’m not saying embrace ignorance, by any means. I am just saying a formal education is just one option to personal growth and career success. I’d hate to see people feel less than because of their choices about how to prepare them for life.
What I suspect you were saying was not so much that there was something wrong with someone’s son for not finishing college, but that you were sad if that person’s full potential was not realized due to their parent’s poor choices. What I hear you saying is that despite your parents’ poor choices, school, then later college changed your life. And that for the better. And you wish the same for other people and it worries you that maybe they won’t have that option. Am I hearing you right?
Btw, I was married once before, and I am married now. My first husband barely made it out of high school. (Skin of his teeth.) He became a very successful VP of a large company in our region. (I still miss the idea of the company plane, Super Bowl tickets, etc I left behind when we separated. ;) ) The (wonderful!!! Woot woot, ya’ll!) man I am married to now has several degrees and (I still find this amazing) attended 11 colleges in his life. With the grace of God, he has made a comfortable life for himself. He put himself through school, paying every penny of it from the age of 17 years old on. (Though, his wonderful*, wonderful mom asked if she could pay for his last university.) All that to say (I do have a point, I swear) is that I’ve seen up close and personal, how God can use all sorts of opportunities to grow us and lead us into our futures.**
*The apple didn’t fall far from this tree.
** Please, don’t take any of this as an endorsement of me celebrating excess money in individual’s pockets. Though, not staying awake at night worrying about whether I should pay the electric bill or the rent sure is nice. And not picking out where I’m going to sleep when I become homeless is awesome.***
*** Only added that last sentence because old friends here knew where my life was 6 years ago and I’ve shared so little of the goodness of my life lately, because the focus should be on those who are coming here for education and healing, but this seemed the right time to share with some of you that I am doing a-ok and have found myself in a well watered land, full of love and grace.
Interesting discussion.
I agree that college isn’t for everyone and some who have gone to college get little for it depending on major etc. There is also a lot to be said for someone out of high school waiting a few years before
One thing unique about Mahaney’s son is that he is the only Mahaney child that “broke rank” that left the group. From what I have seen the rest (all daughters) are drinking the Kool-Aid. Having grown up with such a domineering father I imagine it was hard for Mahaney’s son to leave and move out on his own and learn to think for himself.
You certainly have to commend him for that. Who knows the decision even to go to college might have been more his dad’s than his.
I remember one person somewhat jokingly say with C.J. Mahaney being his dad it is no wonder that he smoked pot. I am sure it wasn’t the easiest situation being the “pope’s” son.
Rogermortimer
Your story is amazing. Fortunately you gifted with an athletic ability and were able to use that as a means to get through college. On top of that you were able to study in college that apparently not all athletes do. I am sure there are many who have this and don’t take advantage of it.
Unfortunately not all in your situation has these opportunities.
Sometimes growing and having a lot given to someone can be detrimental.
Stunned, as usual, such grace and so well stated.
Stunned, so very thankful to hear you’re happy and doing well. Thanks for sharing!!
Much love old friend,
Kindred
Yes, I second what KS just said, Stunned. I enjoyed hearing about your marriage :) Thanks to God.
:) Thanks, Friends.
It looks like we have lost some comments that were posted in the last few days. I am curious what happened.
We didn’t actually lose comments. There are two discussions open when in the past only one discussion was open.
Nice catch Steve. Yes indeed, two topics open.
I just noticed this topic today, after commenting a few days ago on the other one.
Stunned — I’ll add my ‘Amen’ concerning your post. It’s always refreshing to hear good news. Blessings to you and your new spouse.
Steve and Stunned – Thanks for the kind words. I am nervous about exhibiting prejudices towards people who start life on third base, and don’t want to come off like I am narrow minded. But it is a competitive world out there, and those from sound families and and at least a middle class financial background. I think it is rational to expect healthy (not necessarily wealthy) independent outcomes. And a kid raised in wealth in what his father referred to as the happiest place on earth, well, he has all the odds in his favor. But your compassionate point is well taken – it had to be rough being the son of Mahaney. And being raised in an isolated environment doesn’t help young people find a positive way to express themselves.
Living well is the best revenge. I did send two kids to and through the Ivy League. They never wanted for a thing (I spoiled them with cars, trips etc.) But I never wanted them to suffer, and they upheld the terms of their contract in terms of studying and being kind and loving. And although I am not religious, part of the key to their success was in avoiding “sin” – but they were guided in a quiet, reasonable, and non-controlling and didactic way. So the church is right in extolling
avoidance of sin (as a former poor person that is really important with no margin for error), but sin cannot be the controlling principle in faith – if one is to be Christian – one has to embrace the notions of love and redemption in the New Testament – otherwise from a comparative religion standpoint the enduring attraction doesn’t obtain.
One of the turning points in my life was when I had to choose humanities courses to finish my college degree. My undergraduate university, unusual for a NCAA Division 1 athletic school, had and still has one of the best divinity schools in the country. I signed up for English classes, but was quickly intimidated because it was clear that the rich prep school kids had already read of the books for the course in their prep school days.
I asked a professor about what to do (my honors department mentor), and he sent me over to the Divinity school. I told the religion professor that I had never opened a Bible or religious authority of any kind. My mother was an addict, and my parents never read anything around the house. He said “Great, this is not about theology, but the study of religion, and you won’t be encumbered by years of religious study and will have no compunction over fiercely analyzing the text”. Of course, I fell for it, and he was right. I did very well in the courses I took, met the humanities requirement, gained respect for people of faith (the nicest people on campus to me, a poor, very rough edged kid, were the people in those classes), and I could read Faulkner now understanding the Biblical references. Apologies for telling this story about myself. I wanted to make a point. It burns me up that Mahaney (and Lon Solomon, too) trivializes his drug use and uses it as a point of leadership. How appalling. Many people don’t recover from the kind of drug use Mahaney and Solomon brag about, and if we want leadership stories, let’s hear from stories like Stunned’s rather than those of teenage stoners. Mahaney was stoned when he had a room to live in and place to eat. If I pulled that stunt I would have been homeless or worse – no matter what religious faith I found.
Rogermoretimer
Nice reading your response and comments. Last I checked I thought the Mahaney son had some type of a job like at a car dealership. Thus it appears that he has done something with his life though not like a super achiever and not all will be. I have known friends growing up that really didn’t have a desire to go to college etc. One friend did manage to find a reasonably well paying job he stuck with despite not going to college. I know certain trades that pay pretty well not to mention some that can start businesses so not a one size fits all.
You do have a good point about Mahaney trivializing or maybe even glamorizing his drug usage. Some like him when caught had a home and place to crash at. Others don’t have say a solid family where they can go like that till they recover.
I remember reading a book a long ago comparing an earth quake in Los Angeles vs. one in Mexico. The one in LA was worse than the one in Mexico but the people in LA had more financial resources than those in Mexico and thus could recover better and thus wasn’t as bad of an impact. They used this illustration about drug usage where some who use them may have resources to overcome drug addiction while others don’t have those and thus is all the more riskier for those without resources to use addictive drugs.
You are saying something similar. I am not advocating drug usage just stating like you said that it can more riskier for persons that don’t have resources. I imagine someone like C.J. Mahaney doesn’t get that. Also it appears that drug usage and at least some of the drugs out there are far more addictive than they were when C.J. was a young man using them.
rogermortimer, at first I had assumed you were using your real name to post here. But then somewhere in the back of my brain I had a thought that maybe I recalled that name from somewhere in history and looked it up. There were a few Roger Mortimers in medieval history. Which makes me curious why the name you chose? Or were you born with it?
Stunned
the history nerd
Those of us who are still attending Covenant Life just received an email atating that PJ has decided to leave the church. Perhaps he will start another church in the DC area. Perhaps it is time for me to leave and find another church. Sigh. I thought I would die at Covenant Life but how much more drama can a person take.
Lover of CLC
Thanks for the update. I would have thought Smyth would have stayed with such a good deal he had there. On the other hand maybe Smyth realized he wouldn’t be able to attract a crowd there.
Over 30 years ago I was in a church in the Shepherding Movement where I took my commitment to membership seriously. I stayed until the very end when the church was totally dissolved. In the final meeting we sang about “The Year of Jubilee when the prison doors are open and the captives all set free.”
I moved to Maryland a few weeks later and joined CLC. I plan to stay.
What is interesting is how Smith isleaving after a lot of pastors Have already resigned.
Them leaving though might not be a bad thing.
I wonder, is the question being pondered,”now what”?
So what percent of current CLC members will leave and follow PJ to his new church? And will those who remain at CLC be able to financially support the ongoing fixed expenses associated with the large building and staff salaries?
PJ hasn’t been there that long and some think it was only a small vocal minority that supported PJ Smyth. Thus I doubt that many will follow him to a new church if he even does start one near where CLC is.
Wouldn’t PJ have to hired by another American church to continue to work in the States as a non-Citizen? In other words, doesn’t he need a sponsor?
“Wouldn’t PJ have to hired by another American church to continue to work in the States as a non-Citizen? In other words, doesn’t he need a sponsor?”
Yes, I believe so.
I know this was the case in the United Arab Emirates. Work visas were employer specific there. If I would have lost my job I had thirty days to find a new job or else be out of the country. The new employer would have to provide the new work visa. I am told the rules are similar in the United States.
BoughttheField said
“Over 30 years ago I was in a church in the Shepherding Movement where I took my commitment to membership seriously. I stayed until the very end when the church was totally dissolved. In the final meeting we sang about “The Year of Jubilee when the prison doors are open and the captives all set free.”
I moved to Maryland a few weeks later and joined CLC. I plan to stay.”
You may want to rethink and pray about your taking “my commitment to membership seriously.” IMO when members do this it enables abusive and narcissistic leaders. If leaders become unrepentant and unwilling to admit their sin and change people shouldn’t stay around to enable them.
One group the would call those who leave “covenant breakers” and members weren’t allowed to fellowship with those who left.
Todd, many rumors are flying about PJ Smyth and CLC pastors somehow working out a back room deal allowing him to keep his US residency. If you believe these unconfirmed rumors, there may still be some kind of remaining link on paper between PJ and CLC and some kind of mysterious payments happening.
Whatever is happening, much of it seems to be a secret. I think most CLC members want this secrecy to stop! No more “Elephants in the Room!”
BoughtTheField
Hasn’t this secrecy been the group’s MO since the beginning going back to when it was called Gathering of Believers? Not saying it is right but just so imbedded in their culture. Will be hard to change that.
Steve 240, my intention is not to enable CLC leaders to continue their secret antics, but rather to do what I can to uncover the truth. Some people need to stay to help with this.
Also my loyalty is first to God, but secondarily to my brothers and sisters I have walked with for over 30 years. O do not want to abandon them in their time of need.
*”I do not “
BoughttheField.
I see your perspective and people do need help. You have to do what you feel God wants you do do.
I know one couple that attended for a period but did’n’t contribute anymore. Not giving is one way to hit these leaders with maybe the only thing they understand: MONEY.
Hopefully money isn’t the only thing the understand but sometimes I wonder.
“Todd, many rumors are flying about PJ Smyth and CLC pastors somehow working out a back room deal allowing him to keep his US residency. If you believe these unconfirmed rumors, there may still be some kind of remaining link on paper between PJ and CLC and some kind of mysterious payments happening.”
This would not surprise me. I hope somebody at the July 8th members meeting raises this issue and demands an answer as to what CLC’s plans are.
It’s one thing to let a work visa run out. It’s another thing to apply for renewal – they have to be justified and approved by the government.
And it’s one thing to provide a severance package, but it’s another thing to pay someone to go away. Didn’t the issue of whether PJ Smyth would stay or not come up because there was a trial period, and the trial period was over? In that case, it was always a possibility that PJ might not have been invited to stay, and he should have had a back up plan. Nevertheless, he invested his time and his resources, and he was not “fired,” so some kind of a severance package makes sense, if anything to allow him some time to sell his house and get his affairs in order to move back overseas. But paying him to leave does not make sense, unless CLC never had any of the deciding power in the first place.
So I would wait to see if that rumor really is true, or if it’s just a misunderstanding.
Todd Wilhelm said:
Are regular members allowed to ask questions at members’ meetings at CLC? I didn’t think they have allowed/had that for a while maybe going back to when Josh Harris was around.
From what I have seen churches that like secrecy and thrive on control don’t want members to speak their minds or ask critical questions that other members can hear. From leadership’s perspective it is too risky. Allowing this might be an eye opener for other members with simialar concerns or might get members thinking and questioning. For leaders that want to control and have their own way it is MUCH too risky.
In other words it is part of the secrecy that BoughtheField mentioned.
I would be curious to hear if they really allow this open questioning where all members present can hear.
With that s
BoughttheField said:
One thing that has been pointed out here by myself and others is that one major reason this blog and other blogs like the now closed Refuge blog flourished is this secrecy that both Covenant LIfe Church and Sovereign Grace Churches practiced. It was like a dike that broke open and people were relieved to read that they weren’t the only ones with similar concerns. What C.J. Mahaney claimed to be “the happiest place on earth” and where leaders would always claim the problem was with the member since this place was near perfect was exposed.
Also, items that had been kept secret for so long were exposed including what David Adams did and the poor treatment CLC did to who he was married to at the time.
Also these blogs have provided a means to expose questionable at best actions of leaders that in the past were able to do in secrecy. Now these same pastors risk these actions being exposed here on the blogs.
I am sure you are aware of this but showing what affect this secrecy has had.
Thus these leaders a long time ago should have understood this cause and effect or maybe they didn’t and really didn’t care or had hoped it would stop.
When the dust settles, look at the floor, and see where the foot prints lead, to leadership offices, ask, seek, and keep knocking, until full accounting of concerns are satisfied.
Only then, can there be ” in the light” reality.
If not samo-samo will be the outcome.
Brethern test all things
Should ALL meetings of the elders be open to anybody who wants to attend or are there issues Elders must deal with that would be best left to the elders?
FOR INSTANCE: A husband mentions to his elder that he fears his wife is engaged in an adulterous relationship. The elders ask to meet with the two of them. Should this meeting be open to anybody in the congregation?
My Take: it’s not a congregational issue.
“But Drew, what about transparency?” you may ask.
TRANSPARENCY is GREAT as long as it’s about the other person’s secrets.
MAXINE WATERS: “Well, I’m surprised that Chuck Schumer, you know, reached into the other house (of Congress) to do that. I’ve not quite seen that done before, but one of the things I recognize, being an elected official, is in the final analysis, leadership like Chuck Schumer will do anything that they think is necessary to protect their leadership,”
________
I’ve yet to be convinced that SGM Leadership has ever been particularly a-typical of leadership through-out the world. All churches and denominations are lead by groups of sinners. So what Maxine Waters should about her Democratic peers appears true to all groups that I am aware of, “they will protect their leadership.” n’est-ce pas?
So Drew, I guess you do post as other people…
Straw man, anyone?
“TRANSPARENCY is GREAT as long as it’s about the other person’s secrets.
If pastors need to meet together every Thursday all day long to talk about secrets, something must be nuts. Over a dozen pastors in one room and they all need to talk about secrets?
At CLC, who decided the color of the carpets? Pastors. Who decided to repaint bathrooms? Pastors. Who chose the $10,000.00 hall murals for Children’s Ministry? Pastors.
“secrets” are not the mainstay of private pastoral meetings. “control” is.
The excuse that pastors have to protect confidentiality belies the fact that they protect ALL of their discussions.
And where there is no light there is no accountability. And as Paul sternly warned for three years to the church at Ephesus, wolves would come in among the pastors. What safeguard is there in excessive secrecy?
Overblowing the need for secrecy is a terrible habit. It must be fought vigorously.
Transparency for thee, but not for me.
A lot of times, there’s just the handling of rather boring business; as required by corporation law. If you want to own a building, you are going to have to do all the corporate stuff. If you don’t want to be bothered with corporate stuff, have a home church and make plain that gifts/tithes cannot be treated as such. Not deductible. HOWEVER, Congregants like their gifts to be tax deductible.
_________
But sometimes you are handling quite personal issues. It can get dicey whether it be at an incorporated church or a home church. People’s lives you know. Mess is the norm is it not?
_______
“Overblowing the need for secrecy is a terrible habit. It must be fought vigorously.”
[ Saint Elsewhere, Please become a deacon for a year and then get back to me. ]
___________
Finally, in the history of churches, there has NEVER been a carpet change that didn’t bring strife – dryly. This is a known church fact. 100% guarantee that there will be congregants that disagree with the final choice.
Peach
I left you a comment on the previous thread.
None of which argues for secrecy. None.
This is just elaborate excuse making.
And, btw, Cov Life would not have ordained me as a female deacon for a year while I was attending. Not allowed.
(No one expects people to air folks’ dirty laundry.)