Josh Harris & Shannon Bonne Harris Separate
July 19, 2019 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
I’ve gotten a few emails asking for my thoughts about this new development…as well as quite a few from folks who’ve been wondering where we’ve been in general over the past few years. I guess this is as good a time as any to step back into things.
But let’s get a few items out of the way first. Here’s what you won’t find in this post: 1) any sort of information about the Harrises that you haven’t already heard elsewhere; 2) any sort of stick-it-to-ya glee that the courtship guru’s rigid formulas (which caused great harm to many) didn’t actually work out so well for the guru himself; and 3) any sort of cluck-clucking over the supposed evils of patriarchy or complementarianism or a serious approach to Scripture.
So, now that we’re all clear, here goes.
My heart aches for Josh, Shannon, and their kids.
We should pray for them. Pray that they would be renewed and strengthened in their faith. That they would look to Jesus rather than the world. That they would be able to separate the truths about God and the Bible from the lies of the cult that engulfed them and elevated Josh when he probably wasn’t ready for that sort of thing. That the Holy Spirit would draw both of them closer to the Lord. That they would be protected from the fiery darts of the evil one, who goes around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
Pray that their marriage could be saved. That whatever drew them together in the first place would come back to life. That they won’t actually divorce.
God hates divorce.
And God’s opinion is the only one that matters.
I don’t really want to make this post–the first in such a long time–about me, but for those of you who have asked, I need to share my heart. There’s a reason I haven’t posted here much.
You see, a few years ago, maybe five or six years ago, I found myself growing frustrated with what I was seeing, both on this site and on other “watchblogger” sites. It seemed to me like more and more of the people who figured out the truth about their Sovereign Grace churches didn’t just reject the Sovereign Grace craziness. Instead, they felt the need to reject Bible-based Christianity in a much broader, more profound way.
And this filled me with fear.
Someday very soon, we all are going to stand in front of the God of the universe, the perfectly holy, perfectly righteous God as He is portrayed in scripture. If we have not accepted what He did for us through the atoning work of Christ on the cross, if we have not repented of our sins (as sin is defined in the Bible) and accepted this great gift of salvation, then that day in front of the Lord is going to be extremely frightening, a day of pain and regret and weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It’s not going to matter if we found ourselves, lived our dreams, did what made us happy on earth. It’s not going to matter if we were the wokest woke person who ever woked.
On that day, the ONLY thing that will matter is whether we are right with God. And if you somehow have ended up rejecting the Jesus of scripture when you rejected your Sovereign Grace church, then you are in deep trouble.
Don’t let disillusionment with a particular church system lead you to turn away from Christ. He is all that matters, and His work on your behalf is the only thing that will stand between you and eternity in hell. No matter what our pagan culture may be telling us, God is still God, sin is still sin, and we all need a Savior.
Go back to the Bible. Read the scriptures. Let the Holy Spirit illuminate them. Allow yourself to be convicted and transformed by God’s Word.
Love and blessings,
Kris
© 2019, Kris. All rights reserved.
I kissed marriage goodbye … sad. But then again, when you’ve taught rules and regulations, and you blocked out grace in your teachings, you are stuck with performance. Eventually you look around and realize that your wife or husband isn’t performing up to your standards. They don’t change, and after years of them not meeting your expectations, you get fed up with them and walk away.
We can never know what might have gone on within a marriage.
But I’d guess Josh Harris was a completely different commodity when he was the up-and-coming celebrity heir apparent of a growing ministry. Once all those externals were stripped away, it was probably a very different life. Some elements were no doubt freeing. Other elements left them to deal with one another as individuals who suddenly weren’t defined by specific roles, duties, and privileges.
One of the core concepts of courtship was that the marital relationship is less about the individuals and far more about parents, community, and spiritual authorities. Jeremiah 17:9 (“The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked: who can know it?”) was wielded as proof that virtually NOTHING about our instincts, attractions, and natural inclinations could be trusted to guide a person into a healthy relationship. It wasn’t particularly important to feel much of anything about one’s potential spouse. As long as there was parental vetting and approval, as long as the community was for it, and as long as the two people shared the same values and goals, they were good to go.
Fast forward a couple of decades, a few children, all the pressures of average marital life. Then, rather abruptly, remove the community in which the relationship was first built. Take away much of the clout the man used to have. What’s left? Is it any wonder things got difficult, why the couple might feel they needed to part ways?
Again, I know nothing about the Harrises personally. And even with people we DO know, we really never truly know what’s going on behind closed doors. I wish Josh and Shannon all the best. I hope their separation is only temporary.
https://sojo.net/articles/questioning-faith-after-purity-culture-conversation-joshua-harris
Josh wasn’t the founder of the courtship movement. SGM singles were courting 40+ years ago. I think they just used Josh because of the book he wrote at 21 and the conferences he was leading to be their new poster-boy for the next generation.
Then, even after he became a pastor, Shannon was cloistered away and Carolyn Mahaney led the women’s ministry even after CJ was no longer pastor.
Considering his mentoring, Josh had an unusual amount of integrity and conviction, certainly leading the church in a more gracious and more sincere way than his predecessors.
He was the first person to ever successfully (or not) stand up for us to CJ. He fell from their graces when he invited wounded members to his home to talk about their experiences. And he took a fall for us when he resigned from the SGM board in our defense. He took a fall for us again when he apologized under pressure for allowing an open microphone at the Family Meeting.
Under fire for spiritual abusive practices that happened by the SGM leaders while Josh was still a small child, the primary leaders who built CLC abandoned Josh and fled, leaving him to navigate the pain and disillusionment of thousands of covenant members that had poured out their heart, time and finances into building the church.
SGM leaders left Josh alone to navigate the lawsuit and allegations of spiritual abuse before the congregation and the media. Rather than cheering for this man standing in the gap for all of us, the blogs continued to charge Josh, seemingly forgetting about the former leaders who were laying low in Kentucky making albums and giving each other standing ovations. He and his family were attacked by all sides. I can’t imagine any woman enduring such attacks on her family with such grace and poise. She couldn’t have learned that from Carolyn.
Then, he got entangled in the coverup when Grant admitted his dates were wrong in the Nate Morales trial and conflicted with statements Josh made to the congregation. Under extreme pressure to lie from the elders, Josh neither confirmed or denied the contradiction and instead disclosed he had been sexually abused as a child.
Then, the elders in a vote of no-confidence voted that Josh had to go. Without trashing the church or the pastors or his predecessors or the congregations or the blogs, Josh resigned to “go to seminary”. I’m sure the impact on not just Josh, but Shannon and the kids was enormous and traumatic as tens of thousands of people expressed opinions about their lives.
He then devoted a year or two making apologies to everyone who kissed dating goodbye and has been blamed for a purity movement that was there long before he was.
And, his wife is shaking off the years that the locusts have eaten and trying to find herself free of the crushing fear and shame the pastor’s wives felt at CLC.
We are partially to blame for this witchhunt that broke these two fine people. For that, I am sorry.
It would be good if we’d hear a peep from those in Louisville who have refused to take any responsibility for anything.
May God bless Josh and Shannon.
Kris nice post. It is sad seeing many who don’t just reject Sovereign Grace Ministry/Church but also Christ. I have seen that happen over the years with at least a few I have known that have been involved in Sovereign Grace.
Todd good comment.
You are correct that Josh Harris wasn’t the one who initially started “courtship” or some form of it at CLC/SGM. Actually Larry Tomczak is the one who initially introduced going back to 1978 with his book “Straightforward.” Josh was around 4 at the time. CLC was less than a year old then.
https://www.amazon.com/Straightforward-Larry-Tomczak/dp/0882703110
The emphasis then was to not date and do things in groups with other singles. Like other things that are introduced it became from all I hear pretty legalistic the having to do things in groups. The “courtship” principle of having to get the girl’s father permission only happened at CLC later as the children who grew up in CLC were at the marriage age. Before this period of time it was more the emphasis on groups.
Josh’s “kissing dating goodbye” book did solidify the not dating and besides just affecting CLC affected quite a number of people and especially those in the home school movement. I am sure much to his surprise his book took off and many embraced his book. In the Ted Talk that Josh did not too long ago, Josh indicated how hard it was to want to listen to critics of his book when he had so many people claiming just how good KDG was.
Todd as you indicate Josh was the only top Sovereign Grace leader willing to admit there might be some things that were wrong and even seeming to want to apply the same standard to C.J. Mahaney that were applied to other leaders. Josh was the only leader that seemed to have any sense of repentance or even admitting how bad and hypocritical the actions were of C.J Mahaney and how leadership had allowed it to continue for so long.
I am sure that was hard on both Josh and Shannon. I am sure it is disappointing when you see first hand leaders not practicing themselves what they taught and claimed to practice.
Hopefully both Josh and Shannon can look to Jesus for their help in this situation.
One person shared a long time ago that is was a unique situation for Shannon when Josh became Sr. Pastor how Carolyn was still around and still seeming to have the position that the Sr. Pastor’s wife usually has. I am sure it was awkward for Shannon.
Sorry. I should have referred to “Just Saying” and not Todd with my last comment.
In this thread of conversation, we only now are seeing and feeling the effects of the “total depravity” of the “shepherding movement”, not only from the years of documentation on survivors.
But as now, one of the former leaders in this movement, so as many in the congragations, that have been hurt, now as the Shepherding movement has apparently deeply afected (Josh) and his family as well.
This is only the tip of the iceberg.
The accountability, of the founder’s of this movement, that have not publicly repented, and denounced thies practices,
and those who continue to the maintaining, and preaching, promote this demonic teaching, will they hear Jesus Words, in Matt 18:6
Bur whoso shall offend one of those little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
This “sin” of this accountability as before the Almighty is a staggering thought.
We hope and pray that Josh and family can pick up the pieces of there lives, and allow the redeeming Hands of Jesus and His Body, to heal, restore, and make whole, to His (Jesus) Glory to be a testimony as called out ones in His Glorious Kindom. For is not the heart. and actions of the Almighty, redemptive, in all things.
Only in the Christion faith, do we see the leadership/ laity at times “Shoot our wonded”
In stead of taking them off the battlefield of life and mend and heal them.
I”m sorry, maybe Josh was the “best” rotten apple in a basket of rotten apples, but he is still rotton to the core. He STILL can come out and tell the world what happened behind closed doors in the subterranean evil world of CJ Mahaney and his henchmen. He STILL can tell the world of the unrepentant men that destroyed lives.
Problem is … he hasn’t done it! … and he WON’T!
The Bible is filled with stories of men who stood up to evil and wrongdoing. Nathan confronted the King of Israel to his face for murder and adultery. Paul confronted Peter to his face when he wouldn’t eat with the uncircumcised. And Jesus, our great Lord and Savior, gave us Matthew chapter 18 to explain, in detail, how to address a brother who has sinned. All three examples have been written for ALL of us to read and understand and to provide a warning that God’s Word, and obedience to it, is MORE IMPORTANT than what may make you uncomfortable.
The problem with Josh, and many other men in Christendom is that they fear man more than they do the Living God!
Josh is guilty! Josh is the personification of the wimpy male christian leader that permeates far too many pulpits across the United States.
He is now paying the price in his marriage to not standing up, even for his wife, to those that ran over the church, and his family. Shannon even wrote about it in her Instagram post about being buried (in Sovereign Grace). Where was he to protect her? Where was he to stand up for what was right? Where was he to put God’s Word in front of man?
It was, and continues to be found nowhere in his soul to do anything … not even for his wife.
Josh Harris sold over 1,000,000 copies of “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”. A few years back he said it was wrong. So wrong that he hasn’t done jack squat about all of the 100,000’s of lives that he helped destroy with that damn book! Oh … I’m sorry, he posted to someone about missing their prom “My bad!”.
Please, do NOT give Josh Harris a pass or feel sorry for him. He destroyed many young women’s faith, he destroyed his church when he had the chance and HE DESTROYED HIS OWN MARRIAGE!
The aftermath of his lack of following God has now come full circle. Thank’s to God’s grace, he can repent and make right to all of the damage that he personally has caused to SGM, the church and his family.
Will he?
I doubt it. You need a mustard seed of faith to move a mountain. He doesn’t even own a bottle of French’s.
Somewhere, you mystify me.
I am not saying you are wrong here, but on June 17 on the last thread you made your comments about the faithful friend Detwiler and how the evil leadership team kicked poor Brent out.
Brent, who spent 25 years setting the SGM standard for apostles ruling with an iron fist. He wrote the paper on it. He was a core lead apostle for the authoritarian abuse.
Brent, who wrote the paper for the over 40 signs of pride, used to accuse good men of pride when they ever disagreed about anything.
Brent, who, when the leadership team decided to go from a top down brutally heavy handed authority model to one of “fatherly apostolic influence”, giving local pastors more rule in their churches, threw a fit (more or less, you can read his own paper on it that goes on forever about how wrong they were about how apostles are supposed to rule) refused to agree with the new less authoritarian model, refused to sign the new covenant agreement, and pretty much forced CJ and Dave to dump him. How can you stay on a A team when all the other A’s decide to loosen up their grip and you refuse to bend, and insist on your own version of what apostolic rule should be?
But somehow Brent is a good guy and Josh is so bad? Josh, who at least spoke up about the legalism, tried to listen to wounded people? Took CLC out of the cult that Brent spent 25 years building while he kissed the rear end of CJ in public?
I don’t doubt he did too little too late when it came to his wife, and he is paying a very very hard price. I am not dismissing your post.
But if rant on about his failures while sympathizing with poor Brent who spent 25 years as a lead apostle shoving shepherding errors down the throats of everybody in that denomination, I think you have a weird double standard.
I don’t remember Josh including his wife or marriage in his recent documentary about the affects of I Kissed Dating Goodbye. That may have been another indication of problems back then.
5Years – one last comment from me on the “ex-Evangelical” term. I put it in the same catagory as “ex-Charismatic,” ex-Fundamentalist,” “ex-Calvinist,” “ex-Protestant,” etc., each of which actually suggests that the person is trying specifically to say they are not an ex-Christian, but that they no longer adhere to or want to be associated with a particular movement. And I don’t think it’s unusual. That’s all.
Geeze… healing after leaving the cult takes forever, doesn’t it? Here we are, 12 years after this blog started, facing yet another layer of the onion being peeled back. To all my Survivor friends who find themselves having to figure out how to process, just remember you got through it the last time.
I’m sad about Josh and Shannon. Not sad because “god hates divorce.”. Not sad because “divorce wrecks the kids.” Sad because I completely empathize. And I know there are countless others (including myself) who have walked their own parallel path. At the same time, I’m happy for the Harris family that they will be able to go forward, being the people God intended them to be all along.
Syd
Out there- I get that. I hope that’s what she meant. Thanks.
5years…
I never said Brent did no wrong doing. Ever. Yes,he was part of the problem, That said, on the scale of hidiuosly evil to wrong, I’ll put him to the lower end of that range. more importantly, Brent DID SOMETHING about the hideous side of SGM.
Josh doesn’t have a shred of biblical application in his life. None! He could have blown the gates wide often in mahaney but didn’t. STILL hasn’t.
You find out about who a man really is when he loses everything. Josh is spineless!
…5 years.. you continue to have an axe to grind about Brent. Have you asked to meet with him yet and talk to him like we wrote about on this blog a few years ago?
I have heard that some SGM pastors’ departures were governed by VERY tight separation/nondisclosure/nondisparagement agreements. In other words, they’d be guaranteed a certain portion of their salary (or certain number of years of their salary) in exchange for not talking.
To be clear, I do NOT know if Josh Harris signed such an agreement. But if you look at his life since leaving CLC, receiving some sort of severance pay (or for that matter, remaining on the payroll in some capacity) would explain how a family of 5 was able to survive in a very expensive part of the world while Josh pursued his education.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BzjiPWdnJsN/?igshid=x40dfskaohio
And hence the problem with American evangelicalism. Money is more important than truth.
No wonder church attendance is down. No wonder so many walk away from their faith. No wonder the church is in shambles.
Christ is preparing His Bride for thr day when He calls us home. Pray for strong godly men and women to rise up and follow God’s words. Pray that God will continue to separate the wheat from the chaff in the pulpit and elder staffs. They are fat. They only care for themselves. They talk the talk but will not walk it. They’ve left their first love for the world, comfort and peace.
Each of them, including Harris, will meet him face to face and give an accounting of his life to Him.
Spineless, soppy, vanilla men will never be able to deliver a strong message of how incredible a God we serve if He isn’t fully committed to preach and follow the word without reservation.
WW…watched that brief link. Yeah, its called intuition. Discernment. And obviously it was slammed down in her. Completely squashed. I hope she can sort through all the mess and what she sensed was wrong that truly was wrong, and come away from it loving the Lord.
Somewhere….I would never meet with him or talk to him. I don’t trust him at all. Are you kidding? He doesn’t know the meaning of confidential.
Ax to grind? I think if people are going to call CJ to repent, and Dave H and Prater and Josh and anybody else, you have to equally call Brent to repent. He has never admitted how wrong the whole shepherding thing was at SGM, all the leader worship and top down pushy leader authority that made no room for disagreements or for the individual’s walk with the Holy Spirit. Countless good people labeled as proud and ambitious and unsubmissive. Read what he wrote on apostles ruling, and ask why he hasn’t publically apologized before you jump all over Josh for failing to recant enough.
You want Josh to repent fully for his book….but Detwiler doesn’t have to repent for his 25 years of writing and teaching and enforcing a dictatorial role for apostles?
I am sure readership here comes and goes, but with this new event probably more people will check in. I want to be one of the voices here that says the SGM problem was not CJ covering up sex abuse. The SGM problem was a much huger evil that BD was instrumental in creating and enforcing along with the other As and all their underlings. They ALL need to repent of the leader worshipping, leader in the place of God, heavy handed shepherding. One of the few who seemed to make an effort to deal with it in any feeble way was Josh Harris, and I hope God helps him to clean up all the way. At this point in time he’s way ahead of Detwiler in that respect.
I like the comment”onion peeled back”….
When Jesus takes His Sword of Truth, and cuts the onion in Two,then we well see some tears of truth and humility in the eyes of those who need to repent and recant of the shepherding Doctrine and its movement.
In the link above, Shannon mentions the message she was taught that the heart is decieptful. Wow, so much can be said about the emphasis that was placed on that message at CLC/SGM/SGC. But the overall affect (and maybe that was the intention) was to render honest, humble people useless for anything but blind obedience, and then, if needed, for blaming. What a trap!
And too bad the leaders focused so much on the deceiptfulness of other peoples’ hearts, and not enough on their own…
I admire that Josh is not throwing Shannon under the bus nor the other way around. They will both take a hit on their reputations to protect their family. That is completely against SGM tradition.
SGM separations usually involve one party throwing the other one under the bus in order to maintain relationships and the blessing of the church. Everyone has to know who the bad guy is and who to support. Eventually, the one losing this competition ends up blowing off the church and they are the one who is excommunicated. What this does to families and children is utter abuse.
Shannon is overcoming her trauma as a pastor’s wife. That trauma was probably more caused by Carolyn and pastor’s wives rather than Josh. We hear you, Shannon. We were afraid for you from the very beginning. It is terrifying to be a pastor’s wife in this movement. It is terrible had they kept you under house arrest. We hope you find freedom. And, hopefully, you and Josh find a new life together one day. We’re here for you both.
“And too bad the leaders focused so much on the deceiptfulness of other peoples’ hearts, and not enough on their own…“
Good point.
Can you believe Harris said what is reported here
https://mobile.twitter.com/thouarttheman/status/1152599284241641477
just saying…,
I grew up at CLC and was a teen when JH was brought on staff. I attended regularly until I left to attend college. I have followed this blog intermittently since it’s inception (starting with that PDI history post on another blog that intrigued Kris – it’s been quite a ride, hasn’t it?). I have my own set of heartbreaks from my time in SGM.
I’ve never posted, but I am writing to say that your thoughts echo mine. In retrospect, Josh was more of a mascot/poster boy for the purity movement than a leader of it. I don’t blame him as much as I blame the generation above him. Nor do I blame him for what happened at CLC, for the reasons you articulated. He strikes me as someone who came to realize that he was in error and has tried to do the right thing, with regard to SGM and his book, at a great cost.
SGM suffocated many people, Josh and Shannon included. They do seem to have found their voices, so to speak. I’m sad their marriage has ended this way, and am praying for them both, and their children. If I’ve learned anything over the years, it is that life does not always work out the way you expect.
As an aside: I have such ambivalence about my time at CLC. We did have some good times there. Some of my favorite childhood memories involve Labor Day picnics, Camp Hemlock, and the annual trip to Celebration. I remember spending beautiful days with friends, during the youth retreat, wondering if “this is what Heaven will feel like.” I remember the beauty of the worship, and the nights spent praying for the spirit to move. I wish you all could have been there. I pray you all experience something like CLC’s community at it’s best.
But there was a layer of darkness under it all, and a deep disquiet which I could not name until I left. The peer pressure, which molded boys and girls into young men and women of a certain “type.” The deep guilt about the opposite sex. The performance-based Gospel masquerading as grace. The unquestioning deference to authority. I internalized many things that make me cringe today. It was not an altogether positive experience, and I am thankful that the truth is coming out, because there is a lot of brokenness in my generation – even among those of us who still profess faith. We are disillusioned, and disappointed. When the sex abuse stories came out, I had no personal knowledge of the situations… but I completely believed the victims when they said that they were encouraged to hush it up and “reconcile.” I could totally see that happening at CLC.
But even so, is it strange to say that I still mourn what was lost? There is no real gathering place for CLC alumni, apart from here, so there is nowhere to talk about these feelings.
Steve240,
I believe she is in the documentary, toward the beginning, expressing her support for the project. I remember thinking that the scene was somewhat … stilted? Not sure how to describe it.
I used to comment here years ago as Jul, I was a regular and now I’ve been out for so long it’s just part of my story. But strangely I started searching Josh and his wife a few days before the news broke. I have a lot of respect for their journey out etc.. and I’m sorry to hear of the toll it all took on them. Two years ago my husband of 22 yr also split up and while I won’t attribute it solely to SGM, I can’t deny it took a huge toll on us. I am still rebuilding my life and my mental health due to many factors. I wish Josh and Shannon only peace and happiness and I hope their family is surrounded by love and support.
___
“Tip Of The Iceberg?”
hmmm…
Apparently, Kris, much more public exposure is required to identify groups, individuals, and 501(c)3 establishments that continue to allow, practice, and conceal harmful behaviors.
Jesus has left the buildin’?
SKreeeeeeeeetch!
Could b.
(sadface)
Sòpy
;~)§
– –
As I think about this conversation on this thread, of Kris statement, I copyed it and pasted, It below, it is a profound observation.
As well as Jesus’s Words as a loving reminder, to keep His perspective before us.
On that day, the ONLY thing that will matter is whether we are right with God. And if you somehow have ended up rejecting the Jesus of scripture when you rejected your Sovereign Grace church, then you are in deep trouble.
Don’t let disillusionment with a particular church system lead you to turn away from Christ. He is all that matters, and His work on your behalf is the only thing that will stand between you and eternity in hell. No matter what our pagan culture may be telling us, God is still God, sin is still sin, and we all need a Savior.
Go back to the Bible. Read the scriptures. Let the Holy Spirit illuminate them. Allow yourself to be convicted and transformed by God’s Word.
John 15: 9-11
“As the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you. Stay in My love. “If you guard My commands, you shall stay in My love even as I have guarded My Father’s commands and stay in His love. These words I have spoken to you, so that My joy might be in you, and that your joy might be complete.
This site has always made me think of the public restrooms I used to use while travelling to the beach as a kid. You are looking forward to it for some relief, in this case meaningful information, but as soon as you enter,all you want to do is get out and away from the odor as soon as possible. I am embarrassed for God’s people by the criticisms of others including SG and it’s people and pastors. There is a place for addressing any serious offenses, ie. a courtroom but everytime I look to this site for something meaningful all I see is judgement and hyper-criticisms about other people. Good luck on that “day” mentioned above where we will stand before God. Instead of devoting time on this site to critiquing other people, why don’t you critics spend time evaluating your own selves and lamenting and condemning your own souls for YOUR own sins?
This news of Josh and Shannon came as a shock to us. We first met Josh when he accompanied his dad to homeschool conferences. Then, he came to CLC and helped lead the youth ministry and eventually, the whole church so, we have a long history with him. Our grown kids also know him well. The impact of this separation will be immense and I am praying hard that they will change their minds. One of Josh’s last messages at CLC, in 2010, had to do with the topic of divorce so, I know he knows the truth. But, they seemed so weary from the tsunami caused by CJ. And, that didn’t seem to improve much after they relocated. I don’t know the particulars of how or why they drifted apart but, I hope they have made every effort to get the help they need individually and as a couple. God hates divorce and the devastation that comes with it. He also loves restoration and he is more than willing to bring healing and unity, if they call-out to Him. And Kris, I agree about your concern about the walking-wounded, from SGM abuses. We need not forsake God or the church, simply because one group got a lot of things wrong.
Embarrassed beliver:
This survivors site, it just what it means.
If folks are, or were in a abusive / lording and shepherding style leadership, or in a congregation and stuck in this trap.
And when you cannot vocalize your issues or conerns while as members. only when you leave a congregation of SMG control, only then can you speek with your feet as you leave.
This site provides that opportunity to be able to express those views,better late than never.
Please review my posts on this site, and if you still feel, our or my concerns are unwarranted, or out of bounds, then please tell me.
Were open for correction and or adjustments when appropriate.
But if the shoe fits, please allow the same correction and or adjustments, as they may be just be appropriate, for context is everything.
“When church members feel something is getting swept under the rug and that nothing’s being done about it, they’ll go to the secular media.” -Julia Duin
Although anything said here is speculative because it is difficult to discern what takes place in a marriage, as an observer the divorce does not surprise me. Covenant Life prospered (like many cults) in enforcing cultural and physical isolation. Once in an environment outside the church, there is considerable change to deal with and significant change is not often mananged easily. Quite often people act out. Take Byn’s post above, very insightful. He or she discerns the very real dark side of this church but at the same time has warm memories. I get it – I was raised in a violent and abusive home, only to be saved by my father abandoning us, and by a perpetually addicted and unemployed mother who was absent. But I still have some warm memories of my childhood, especially of athletics and friends. Sorting this out is not easy, and for those who remain religious, sticking close to religious principles of love and redemption seem wise.
In this vein, I have difficulty being too harsh on Harris. His homeschool background made him very isolated, and he didn’t have the education or the developed intellect to truly step into a pastor’s role. His career came about under the auspices of Mahaney, one of the most shallow and self centered religious leaders I can think of. No education (accordingly no real exploration other than the topic of sin or a five minute memorization of sanctification and justification), a delusional casting of himself as a pastor athlete with zero athletic accomplishments to speak of, a nine month pastors college with no accreditation but loads of career lock-in, and of course, a perverse isolationist bent which thinks keeping sex offenses against children within the church a good idea. I would imagine Harris began to ask himself as to just what he had done, similar in a way (not degree) as to what the Madoff sons experienced when it all went down in December of 2008. Again, while the guy deserves some degree of criticism, I think Harris deserves some credit for striking out on his own to make amends.
Divorce brings about a great sense of loss, and most of us underestimate what loss does to us. One would hope they can reconcile.
Beautiful post, Kris. Can’t agree more about how sad it is when victims of spiritual abuse walk away from their one Source of comfort.
So very sad to hear the news about Josh and Shannon.
It’s good to see you back, Kris, and I join you in prayer for the two of them and share your sentiment wholeheartedly that all that really matters is our standing before our Lord and Savior one day.
5 Years, keep pounding, my friend.
Blessings to all,
A Kindred Spirit
Well 5yearsinPDI, I see you are taking advantage of the moment to libel me knowing more people will read the blog to learn about Joshua and Shannon. I’m back like Kris is back.
Quote: “I am not saying you are wrong here, but on June 17 on the last thread you made your comments about the faithful friend Detwiler and how the evil leadership team kicked poor Brent out.”
Comment: The leadership team did not kick me out. I resigned in November 2007 after a three year intense process of trying to address the serious issue of pride, deceit, abuse, and hypocrisy in C.J.’s life. I could no longer work with C.J. with a clear conscience because of his abusive and corrupt leadership which I was singularly confronting. Joshua Harris totally bailed on me. He replaced me on the leadership team. Why? C.J. knew Joshua would do his bidding. Joshua totally enabled C.J. even though we had walked through a 3 years process (2004-2007) that I led during which C.J. was totally unresponsive to our input.
No one was willing to stand up to C.J. I had been doing it for eight years in an formal manner (2000-2007). Longer informally. All capitulated including Dave Harvey in 2006 who told me we must treat C.J. like a rebellious teenager who could not be confronted. I strongly disagreed. Harvey was on the verge of a “nervous” breakdown over C.J. and didn’t want to lose his position. He stopped raising issues altogether and began to accommodate C.J. in every way.
The same with Joshua Harris. He capitulated too. In 2011, I appealed to Joshua and the CLC elders to remove him from ministry. They refused because they feared his wrath on a national level. In 2012, Joshua even told Covenant Life Church that C.J. was qualified to plant Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville in 2012 and supported the church plant. I was stunned and horrified. His cowardice and compromise offended many people in CLC.
Even when CLC left Sovereign Grace Ministries a few months later in December 2012, Harris and the elders refused to say anything specific against C.J. or SGM. They made a totally vague and meaningless announcement to the church about pulling out. Again, members were offended by their cowardice and compromise. All this time I was working, writing and appealing for them to obey God and remove C.J. from ministry. They were enabling him.
##
Quote: “Brent, who spent 25 years setting the SGM standard for apostles ruling with an iron fist. He wrote the paper on it. He was a core lead apostle for the authoritarian abuse.”
Comment: This is an altogether slanderous statement that is so typical you. I was the one addressing “authoritarian abuse” and many other issues. C.J. and his surrogates came after me as a result. It was horrible. See my article about Ken Sande’s involvement. http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/ken-sande-counseled-cj-mahaney-to-confess-he-was-so-very-gui.html. He told C.J. he needed to confess, “I’m guilty, so very guilty!” for a litany of sins against me. C.J. cut him off. So in 2007, I stepped down from the Board of Directors largely due to my loss of trust in C.J. In 2009, I left SGM because of the pride, deceit, hypocrisy, and heavy handedness that characterized the leadership culture. It became unconscionable. I could not stay.
I was the “core lead apostle” confronting “authoritarian abuse.” You have it completely backwards. You never knew me, never sat under my teaching, never were part of a church I pastored or oversaw. You were a member of Covenant Fellowship Church with Dave Harvey. Over the years, I have asked to talk with you numerous times. You have always refused. Instead you libel with malicious intent and put forth lies about me you know are untrue. Most people would have sued you long ago. As I have said and shown many times on this blog, you are more severe and heavy handed then any of the pastors I worked with in SGM but you’re obvious to the hypocrisy. The things you condemned in me are the very things you model.
##
“Brent, who wrote the paper for the over 40 signs of pride, used to accuse good men of pride when they ever disagreed about anything.”
Comment: This is pure slander. I wrote a paper on the fruits of pride to help us grow in humility. That included being teachable since that is a prominent theme in Proverbs and elsewhere. The humble love correction. The proud hate it. I never used it to “accuse good men of pride when they ever disagreed about anything.” Your use of “ever” and “anything” is completely off base. You repeatedly hype your accusations to smear me in the most unjust manner Who is feeding you these lies? Or do you just come up with them yourself?
##
Quote: “Brent, who, when the leadership team decided to go from a top down brutally heavy handed authority model to one of “fatherly apostolic influence”, giving local pastors more rule in their churches, threw a fit (more or less, you can read his own paper on it).”
Comment: There was never “a top down brutally heavy handed authority model.” That is a complete caricature. And you say, I “threw a fit (more or less)” in a “paper on it.” What paper? And why don’t you quote the paper? I did not throw any kind of fit. I was doing my best to faithfully present the teaching of Scripture on the relationship between apostles and elders as presented in the New Testament. You love to misrepresent me. You have often made up outrageous charges (e.g. I pushed the Ezzo material when the opposite was true) or make charges without any evidence to support your malice. In fact, you purposely twist the truth (e.g. read my article on Res Ipsa again.).
##
Quote: “But somehow Brent is a good guy and Josh is so bad? Josh, who at least spoke up about the legalism, tried to listen to wounded people? Took CLC out of the cult that Brent spent 25 years building while he kissed the rear end of CJ in public?”
Josh did speak out about legalism in CLC and listened to some wounded people. But he did not listen to me. In fact, he betrayed me. In August 2004, he promised me and the SGM leadership he would hold C.J. accountable to change or take disciplinary action. He secretly broke his promise because he feared C.J. and didn’t want to fall out of his favor. That betrayal was brutal and allowed C.J. to plot my demise in 2008 by using Gene Emerson who was later arrested for the solicitation of prostitution. This just before C.J. and SGM tried to silence me with severance in 2009. Kris alludes to this practice above. I did not yield to them for a minute. I confronted them on their treachery. I told them I would not sign the legally binding agreement. They backed off and said it was all a simple mistake. They are such liars!
Joshua did not listen to the victims of sexual abuse either. In fact, he covered up the crimes committed by Nathaniel Morales and Charles Llewellyn when the “wounded” victims and families appealed to him and his staff to stop them. He knowingly violated the law and he broke his promises to the victims and/or family members. That is why the District Attorney’s Office for Montgomery County, MD said on the record in August 2014 that CLC covered up the serial and heinous crimes Morales committed against four boys for years.
Instead of coming clean, however, Harris hired a totally unqualified lawyer and law firm (Thaler-Liebeler LLP) to do a fraudulent investigation that did not include talking to the victims – only the abusers! It was part of the cover-up. And then Liebeler withheld incriminating evidence from his oral reports to CLC in October 2014. That was intentional. I’ve documented all of this in hundreds of pages of evidence.
Harris knows the “independent” investigation was designed to protect CLC and cut out the victims. No one interested in revealing the truth (which he promised), hires lawyer to investigate the very group he is legally bound to protect (Harris, the pastors & the church). As their lawyer, Liebeler could not report incriminating evidence to CLC or recommended criminal prosecution. Lars Liebeler acted their defense lawyer. It was a fraud to say he was an “independent investigator.” This was orchestrated by Harris, Mark Mitchell and the CLC Board of Elders.
If Harris had any integrity he would go public and bust the conspiracy to cover up the sexual abuse of children in CLC. He knows all about it and he led it for 12 years. Instead he continues to lie. He told Sojourn magazine in February, “We did report many cases of sexual abuse.” That is a blatant untrue!.
https://sojo.net/articles/questioning-faith-after-purity-culture-conversation-joshua-harris
Joshua is a bad boy but he knows how to play the victim card and manipulate his audience. I think that is evident in his separation announcement.
Back to your libel. Joshua “took CLC out of the cult that Brent spent 25 years building while he kissed the rear end of CJ in public?” Harris and over 40 others churches left Sovereign Grace because of all my hard work. It would not have happened otherwise. Harris “took CLC out of the cult” in December 2012. That is after I released all The Documents, written many articles on my blog exposing CLC and SGM, and appealed countless times to Harris to take action against C.J. This is just other example of your reckless accusations. I was not kissing C.J. in the rear when CLC left. I was kicking him in the rear and had been for 12 years. Get your facts right.
##
Quote: “But if rant on about his failures while sympathizing with poor Brent who spent 25 years as a lead apostle shoving shepherding errors down the throats of everybody in that denomination, I think you have a weird double standard.
Comment: If you had any acquaintance with the truth you would know I taught against the “shepherding errors” (e.g. tithing directly to your leader, unconditional obedience to those over you, building leadership pyramids, making disciples of men instead of Christ, requiring strict conformity, etc.). Your language is so hateful and extreme. There is no truth to it. “Shoving…down the throats of everybody in that denomination.” That is terribly abusive language. You condemn “shepherding errors” – that’s fine, there were some; but your “errors” are worse.
##
Quote: “Somewhere….I would never meet with him or talk to him. I don’t trust him at all. Are you kidding? He doesn’t know the meaning of confidential.”
Comment: This is just an excuse for not obeying Scripture and not wanting to be addressed on your continuous libel. You want to freely sin without being addressed. And I am happy for you to correct me on anything. Kris and Somewhere can moderate our conversation. I’m content to leave it with them and keep it confidential. I have kept many things confidential when they don’t involve crimes or unrepentant sins that are harming others. In those cases, I follow Scripture and report the crimes and expose the evil.
##
Quote: “You want Josh to repent fully for his book….but Detwiler doesn’t have to repent for his 25 years of writing and teaching and enforcing a dictatorial role for apostles?”
Comment: Josh needs to repent for his lying, deceit, and cowardice. That includes covering up for C.J. and covering up the sexual abuse of children. He also needs to repent for his betrayals, scheming, and broken promises. If Joshua had obeyed Jesus Christ, C.J. would have been dealt with in July 2011 and tens of thousands of people spared the misery that followed. After C.J., no one is more responsible for the demise of CLC and SGM than Joshua. That is why he fled to Vancouver, Canada It wasn’t for an education. It was to get away. He wasn’t willing to lead in righteousness. I would have backed him all the way. SGM was salvageable.
##
Quote: “25 years of writing and teaching and enforcing a dictatorial role for apostles?” This is beyond bizarre. Can you produce one writing? One teaching? One example (and please don’t say B.W. – in that case I removed a “dictator” (i.e., a domineering pastor) with the full support of his elders, friends, and church.)
Comment: People can judge how I deal with people by reading the 400 articles I’ve written on my blog since 2011 and how have I have responded to your brutal and unfounded attacks over the years. It is my sincere hope and prayer that you will repent for your incessant “dictatorial” accusations on this blog. I don’t say that to agitate. You have done much harm, not good.
Here is what I taught by the way. That apostles are a continuing ministry in the church and they work with local elders in overseeing the church. They also provide oversight to the elders. Their spiritual gifting, experience, and character commend them to this task. Their relationship with the local pastors is built on trust, friendship and a recognition of their role. They are servant apostles. That is men gifted to plant, build, and oversee churches. You are free to disagree with this polity but I think that is the teaching of the New Testament and the configuration God used to reach the Mediterranean world in one generation.
##
Quote: “I want to be one of the voices here that says the SGM problem was not CJ covering up sex abuse.”
Comment: You should not minimize the cover up of sexual abuse and assault for over 35 years. It was criminal and it destroyed lives. C.J. did not expose Charles Schmitt in 1980 when he was based in CLC as an apostle and preying on young men. Schmitt was exposed at the time for a 22 year history of homosexual predation as a married man. C.J. and Larry Tomczak let him to go. They let him plant a church nearby. It grew to 4,000. He continued to assault young men until I forced him out of ministry with my writings and my work behind the scenes. He threatened me with a lawsuit but I did not desist. His ministry is effectively over. Thank God. He is a vile sociopathic liar and homosexual predator.
Mahaney, Tomczak, Harris, Layman, et al. determination not to report perverts reveals the most evil and self-serving of motivations. They protected pedophiles and predators at the expense of victims and their families. They should all be in prison. Why did they do this? They didn’t want to lose members and money or suffer reputational loss. That is why God judged them. If you cover up for Schmitt, Morales, and Llewellyn, you will cover up for anybody! And in the case of the wealthy Llewellyn, he will send you away on an expensive vacation.
As I said before, Harris could blow to smithereens the lie there was no conspiracy and half the victims were liars. That is what he, Mark Mitchell, Grant Laymen, Corby Megorden, Kenneth Maresco, and Robin Boisvert told CLC through their lawyer and Mahaney, Mark Prater, Bob Kauflin, Mickey Connolly, Jeff Purswell, Tommy Hill, and Ian McConnell told Sovereign Grace and the Body of Christ at large. In addition so many other victims have come forward since the Second Amended Complaint (May 2013).
I am grateful six years of very hard work are finally bearing fruit. It was helpful when Rachael Denhollander contacted me in 2016. I put her in contact with victims. She’s studied all my work. I’ve sent her tons of evidence. I continue to do so. It was also helpful, when Al Mohler finally studied the evidence and severed all ties with C.J. and Sovereign Grace Churches, Inc. For years, he believed C.J.’s lies and refused to read the hundreds of pages of evidence I sent him. He now knows C.J. deceived him and covered up the sexual abuse of children. So do a lot of leaders around the nation. That is the kind of “dictatorial” work I have been doing for the last 10 years since I left SGM. It has cost me everything. Your constant libel and belligerence have been hard to bear. The Lord have mercy on you.
5years …
I’d be more than happy , along with Kris, if she’d like, to moderate a conversation and reconciliation with you and Brent.
The ball is in your court.
Ah, you are back.
You know perfectly well what I am talking about. Here is your long essay and people here can plow through it for themselves:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2012/5/16/cjs-conundrum-regarding-apostles.html
You had one concept of apostles, and the A team/Regional leaders came to hold to another concept. You refused as a matter of conscience to sign the covenant statement with regard to this. Your conscience, Romans 14, you made a decision to not go along with the team. You got ousted. Your life, your business. But in a group like this when you refuse to submit to the majority position and sign a covenant statement, well, you get kicked out. I don’t know why you didn’t realize you would be removed when you refused to go along and sign. I mean, you know what happened to the low life members who strongly disagreed with SGM and how they got treated over the years.
Anybody wondering- just read Brent’s own account in his own words.
I repeatedly posted the video of you worshipping CJ at the weekend in Sept that followed your August run in with CJ. 2004 IIRC. You finally, finally, got on and said that at the time you lauded and praised the great man, you honestly thought he was changing or had changed or was receptive to correction. I don’t feel like hunting up your exact comment. I said OK, fine, I won’t post the vid again and will drop the subject.
But why exactly is Harris not allowed to be as duped as you were? Why exactly were you allowed to spend years talking to CJ and STILL think he was changing in a godly way at that special event where Harris became pastor? Harris was mentored by him, looked to him as a fatherly figure, and was not on the A team seeing what you saw. But somehow it was OK for you to be taken in and duped and enable CJ, but not for Josh. I think you have a real double standard.
I read your piece, and you don’t think you have anything to apologize for regarding your A role at SGM. You are not guilty of shepherding errors. You didn’t act wrongly controlling. You didn’t add to the leader worship/leaders in the place of God. I don’t even know what to say so I think I wont even try. You can read the stories here- take a month and just read. If you were as against shepherding errors as your claim, you would have left SGM, the same way all of us who got our eyes opened finally left. It was spiritually abusive and you can’t own any part of that? I shake my head, its mind boggling to me that you can’t see it.
People can read your posts and decide what they think, its a free forum to all. Frankly all you’ve done to me is confirm my opinion that you are 100% blind to what the A team established and maintained and enforced for decades that was wrong, and you are unable to apologize.
If in any way I minimized the horror and wickedness of sex abuse cover up, you misunderstood me. It is terrible, but happened in the spiritually controlling climate of SGM that the A team enforced, and the SGM problem is far bigger than only sex abuse cover up.
Bye dude, hope your wife is doing better and in remission. No, we are not talking, lol, as if for one split second I think you would accurately repeat a conversation. I don’t trust you, and anything that you want to say you can say right here. You set yourself up as a public writer, and the public is free to discuss in public your articles, or your SGM A team influence. And please stop trying to figure out who I am and where I went to church, just let it go.
You might want to go back and read your Reformed theology systematic theologies on the sovereignty of God. You seem to be theologically barren about your life and what God ordained for you with CJ and the rest. God ordained it, God allowed it, and you don’t seem to see God in it. I think you would find some emotional rest and peace if you could get to the place of seeing God behind CJ. Maybe spend some time studying the sovereignty of God, and how even when people mistreat us, God is in it for His perfect purpose. I can guess what His purpose was for you, but that is something you have to see for yourself.
I am really tired so I’ll stop here, but I wanted to post something and then go to sleep.
___
Kris,
Hello,
Early on, it was found necessary to strengthen JimP of sgmrefuge.
Although we were unaware at the time , It was later he who God would raise up to release Bret’s SGM internal documents (sgmwikileaks) on to the internet, as an answer to our heart felt prayers.
Also, you may not know, a group of us had asked the Lord to bind the SGM strong man, and raise up someone from within SGM to expose the then present darkness you passionately wrote about, and to aid in setting Jesus’ people free.
God evidently choose Brent as an answer to our prayers in part for the exposure of these SGM internal matters.
Happily, our prayers are still baring fruit.
As you are well aware, there is still time for SGC to change the road they’re on. Mercy being greater than judgement.
***
Thank you Kris for your faithfulness to Jesus & His gospel over the years, may your ‘house’ stand within His ‘unable to contain abundance’ for always!
Your ‘life’ truly matters.
The Lord be praised!
His church really matters to Him.
(tears)
ATB
Sòpy
Can there be a honest, truefull, resolution and conversation unto reconciliation between you both in this life, before the grave?
Sounds like the offences are paramount, as a very high mountain.
Sounds like the wisdom of Solaman is needed, but, But The One we serve, and is present, is Jesus Himself by His Holy Spirit, and His scriptures are present with us now?
Lots of folks watching this conversation, wondering how the Almighty will turn this situation, for His Glory, while not being limited by human understanding or the lack there of.
1 Corinthians 6:3 KJV — Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Proverbs 18:19 KJV – 19 A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if
he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Brethern test all things.
5years ….
I’m guessing that if you are unwilling to have a discussion with Brent you are then going to stop the “I hate Brent” posts?
As an outside observer watching the back and forth over the years, I think there is a disconnect between 5years and Brent – in the end, it might not make any difference, but for what it’s worth:
– I think 5Years is criticizing on two levels, and maybe is mixing the two levels – one, there are some specific comments about Brent’s behavior/actions; and two, there are criticisms about the system Brent built and suported, saying that system is what ultimately led to the significant problems within SGM, and that Brent continues to this day to support that system – therefore Brent belongs in the same catagory as the other SGM leaders, because whoever created and supports that system is part of the problem.
– Meanwhile, I think Brent is saying that the problem is with the people within the system who acted corruptly – they behaved dishonestly and cowardly; he worked to confront and address their corrupt application of the system, and they resisted him. Therefore, he does not agree with 5Years’ accusations that he is in the same catagory as CJ, etc. His comments don’t seem to even address her comments about the system he supports, and I assume he believes that a correct application of the system originally set up at SGM/SGC would not have led to SGM’s epic fail..
Legally, I think 5years is free to criticize Brent as long as he publicly posts his views, and I appreciate that Brent actually responds and tries to explain himself. But it might help if 5Years separated her comments about Brent’s personal behavior (such as that video that keeps coming up, and which i think Brent replied about a while back) from what she sees as the problems with the systems Brent supports. And in my opinion, the discussion about the structural system issues is the more important issue – not the attempts at gotcha for not repenting of this and that.
“I resigned in November 2007 after a three year intense process of trying to address the serious issue of pride, deceit, abuse, and hypocrisy in C.J.’s life.“
@Brent So during that three year ‘intense’ process how many times did you get up at Celebration and individual churches lauding CJ and citing his humility, lack of pride, integrity, etc. You may want to check your heart on that.
Also, just for what it’s worth, I kind of find it refreshing the way Brent talks about Josh. Josh is a grown man, and while he deserves some sympathy, he should also be called out for weakness and bad behavior. Let’s not forget that Larry and CJ were youngsters when they first hit the public stage, about the same age as Josh was when he started. If we are going to sympathize with Josh for all the influences that affected him along the way, then we need to extend the same consideration to Larry, CJ, and all the others. And I think it’s instructive to do that when trying to understand why a person is the way s/he is. But with that said, at some point, adults who claim to be half-way intelligent must take full responsibility for their behavior, regardless of the background story.
I think Brent is one of the few leaders (only?) who actually worked with Josh and has commented publicly about Josh’s behind-the-scenes decisions, behavior, etc. I think that is interesting.
WalkingWounded,
I work in Fortune 500 company that has as many, if not more, political balancing acts than a church would have to follow to address issues within leadership to a) Do it the right way and b) Keep your job in tact.
I have no problem with Brent’s accolades about CJ, as the process behind the curtain was on-going. Maybe I personally wouldn’t have been as glowing (something that I ALWAYS hated about how SGM leaders introduced one another … almost used to make me want to vomit!), but there are many things that one doesn’t see on the surface when conversations occur in public.
I remember an incident where an Executive Sales leader in my company won a prestigious award for the top sales numbers for the year in May, and was unceremoniously escorted out the door in June when an on-going investigation found out that he was doing the dirty with a woman that reported to him. The CEO was aware of the investigation and so was the Executive Leadership team. However, this guy’s sales numbers were the best in the company and he won the award. It wasn’t until the next month, after the investigation ended, that they fired him on the spot.
I understand what you are saying, but if you read Brent’s documents, you saw the extent as to what he went through to do it the right way.
OK, I’m going to call a halt to the back-and-forth between 5Years and Brent. This has happened before, and these comments – especially Brent’s LENGTHY, overkill responses – are not really productive.
The calls for “reconciliation” between them are also weird. Brent was a public leader in SGM for well over 20 years. He has also published hundreds of thousands (probably more like MILLIONS) of words online, outlining his positions and grievances now. As far as I can tell, 5Years has no personal issues with Brent. She is merely calling him out on his public stuff, what he did as a leader and what he’s written about that since he left SGM. There’s nothing to “reconcile” there. Brent is free to take 5Years’ analysis/criticism to heart and do what she’s asking…or he’s free to ignore it.
Kris, you wouldn’t happen to have an actual copy of that handout that I emailed you several years ago of a message given by Brent Detwiler at “The Summit Men’s Retreat” on September 21-23, 2006, would you? All I could find is a reference to it on an old post on Steve’s blog. All the links are dead now and the internet has been thoroughly cleaned up of such. I may have the actual folder with all the info from that weekend around here somewhere.
Here’s the old post with reference to it…
“What Another (Now Former) Leader In Sovereign Grace Ministries Teaches About Courtship & Dating
I know it has been a little while since I made an entry but I am not one to just keep posting unless I have something to say.
7/14/11 Update
After leaving SGM Brent Detwiler has produced a number of documents showing multiple problems that exist within SGM and especially the hypocrisy of C.J. Mahaney. As a result of these documents becoming public Mahaney stepped down as leader of the group.
I have the highest respect for Brent having the courage to release these documents. Hopefully they will result in needed changes in SGM.
Original Post
I was reading some comments on another blog called SGMSurvivors (www.sgmsurvivors.com) and someone posted the following link:
http://audio.kingswaymedia.cc/pdf/4GettingReady.pdf
If you download this pdf file it indicates it is the handout for a message given by Brent Detwiler at “The Summit Men’s Retreat” on September 21-23, 2006. He is calling the message “Getting Ready” as in getting ready for courtship.
For those who don’t know, Brent Detwiler isn’t just a another pastor in Sovereign Grace Ministries. He is in the higher leadership of Sovereign Grace including at times having responsibility for oversight of a number of churches. Thus this teaching shouldn’t be regarded as the teaching of just one of the regular SGM pastors but by someone in upper leadership.
Just like I have commented before on Josh Harris’s books, this handout has both wisdom and foolishness.
Listed below are some of points Brett Detwiler teaches about Courtship/Dating that caught my attention. I have inserted my comments below each “point.”
▪ Courtship is not for fun.
If courtship isn’t fun I wonder what it should be. Should it be mundane or a chore? Sure it should be taken seriously and will be some work but shouldn’t a couple have fun exploring whether they are a good match for each other? Is this a good way to start a marriage? I question of the wisdom of wanting to get married to someone that I can’t even have a fun experience with.
▪ Dating is about personal gratification and an end in itself. It brings all kinds of temptation to sin.
It looks like Detwiler is convinced that someone can’t date without it including all of the above. It is one thing to promote or think that “courtship” is a superior or more holy than dating. It is another thing to make a generalization like this.
I know of couples that have dated and wasn’t about the above. It was done with integrity. I can’t believe Detwiler’s audacity to make this judgment about dating.
At least Detwiler is out and open about his beliefs vs. writing a book that decries problems with dating but then claims they aren’t against dating.
▪ Keep Courtship Brief
▪ The longer a courtship goes the greater the likelihood a brother and sister will get involved emotionally and physically in ways that are inappropriate or sinful.
▪ By keeping the courtship brief (e.g. 3-6 months) you are trying to prevent this from happening. There is a balance between getting to know the person better and escalating temptation.
I have heard of couples that being under pressure to either get married or cut off seeing each other. Some couples in response to this pressure would get married before they had spent enough time to get to know each other and fully “explore” the possibility of a marriage. They would then get married and discover they weren’t as good of a match as they thought. Imagine being married to someone that isn’t the best of match when God wants this to be a commitment for life.
I guess if you listen to what Detwiler says here and other places in this handout, there is only one way to do things?
▪ Marriage will not prosper and may not survive apart from wholehearted involvement in a local church.
Though it always good for a couple to be involved in a local church I am not sure how one can make this generalization.
▪ Role oriented marriages – the reason why arranged marriages work.
• Man – priorities as a husband, father and provider
▪ Woman – priorities as a wife, mother, and home worker
(I added the underline and italics.)
Well at least Detweiler is being honest about this. He is promoting “arranged” marriages. It sounds like he wants the children’s parents to arrange a marriage. I wouldn’t want my parents deciding especially without my input on who my mate should be.
In conclusion this teaching may show the real heart and what is really behind what Sovereign Grace Ministries believes and teaches on courtship and dating including how bad they consider dating to be. At least it is nice to know what their views are so that one can make an informed decision. It is shocking that Detwiler teaches that there is only one way to do something.
Detwiler’s message may also show the real heart behind what Joshua Harris believes on courtship. Harris may claim that he doesn’t have strong views against dating but when one sees something like this it really makes you wonder if Harris’s views aren’t this extreme also. Of course there could be differing views in SGM.”
Thanks Kris. And Thanks Out There for the well put articulated clarification. You summed it up well.
RogerM- been meaning to say thanks for the nice post, you probably are the most accurate observer yet but that’s just my speculation. And Byn, yeah, there were some glorious times of God’s presence in the mix. Pray for revival.
Kris:
Thanks for the clarification
I get it, teach, preach in public, get scrutinized in public as well.
I need to remember, this is a public form about SGM survivors, and not a congregation.
But believers having a open conversation.
Thanks
It would be interesting to know the statistics on divorces (or, in this case, separations) within courtship style marriages compared to regular, run-of-the-mill marriages within a Christian context. I personally know of 5 fairly dramatic courtship-marriage breakups — one from over 40 years ago when a couple married because the leaders of shepherding group told them to marry. Others are from the IKDG era. One young woman turned down the courtship offer the first time around, but when the guy offered again a year later, she felt she had no alternative, and the ensuing marriage and legal issues were a complete nightmare. Another couple married right out of college, only for the man to fall in love with someone else. I personally don’t believe you can fall in love with someone else if you are already ‘in love.’ But choosing to love someone isn’t the same thing as falling ‘in love.’ Falling in love brings the kind of passion that helps you make it through the rough times. My mother told me, years ago, that passion for each other is what makes it possible for a marriage to survive the tough times in life. I’m not saying that all courtship marriages lack that element — possibly, some truly fell in love. Most, I believe, chose to love someone. The kind of love that you can choose is different from the kind you can’t pick. But all that is wrapped up in the ’emotions are bad’ teaching that came from SGM. Emotions get mentioned a LOT in the Bible — they are a gift from God, but need tempering by following the Holy Spirit and trying to make good life decisions.
And — one other comment, when someone becomes free of legalism, and steps out to do something that doesn’t align with the prescribed, scripted behavior of being a full-time pastor, homegroup leader, or Stepford wife, it is really uncomfortable for family members who haven’t yet left the legalism. Sadly, many of our SGM brethren left SGM, but still live in a scripted world that doesn’t make room for doing things that were previously considered off-limits. There are those who would equate cutting a secular recording with pole dancing.
Separation and/or divorce are often an honest acknowledgment of something that has already occurred within a relationship.
I wish them both the very best as they take the difficult steps of living in the post-SGM mindset, and that they will both still choose CHRIST whether together or separate.
I should add – there’s no “libel” here. Please! This is one person’s (5Years’) assessment of what Brent himself has said and done over the course of his very public ministry. As far as I can tell, 5Years is not purporting to be some sort of authority or even any kind of expert. Anyone who reads here is free to question what she posts, disagree with it, or whatever.