Josh Harris & Shannon Bonne Harris Separate
July 19, 2019 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
I’ve gotten a few emails asking for my thoughts about this new development…as well as quite a few from folks who’ve been wondering where we’ve been in general over the past few years. I guess this is as good a time as any to step back into things.
But let’s get a few items out of the way first. Here’s what you won’t find in this post: 1) any sort of information about the Harrises that you haven’t already heard elsewhere; 2) any sort of stick-it-to-ya glee that the courtship guru’s rigid formulas (which caused great harm to many) didn’t actually work out so well for the guru himself; and 3) any sort of cluck-clucking over the supposed evils of patriarchy or complementarianism or a serious approach to Scripture.
So, now that we’re all clear, here goes.
My heart aches for Josh, Shannon, and their kids.
We should pray for them. Pray that they would be renewed and strengthened in their faith. That they would look to Jesus rather than the world. That they would be able to separate the truths about God and the Bible from the lies of the cult that engulfed them and elevated Josh when he probably wasn’t ready for that sort of thing. That the Holy Spirit would draw both of them closer to the Lord. That they would be protected from the fiery darts of the evil one, who goes around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
Pray that their marriage could be saved. That whatever drew them together in the first place would come back to life. That they won’t actually divorce.
God hates divorce.
And God’s opinion is the only one that matters.
I don’t really want to make this post–the first in such a long time–about me, but for those of you who have asked, I need to share my heart. There’s a reason I haven’t posted here much.
You see, a few years ago, maybe five or six years ago, I found myself growing frustrated with what I was seeing, both on this site and on other “watchblogger” sites. It seemed to me like more and more of the people who figured out the truth about their Sovereign Grace churches didn’t just reject the Sovereign Grace craziness. Instead, they felt the need to reject Bible-based Christianity in a much broader, more profound way.
And this filled me with fear.
Someday very soon, we all are going to stand in front of the God of the universe, the perfectly holy, perfectly righteous God as He is portrayed in scripture. If we have not accepted what He did for us through the atoning work of Christ on the cross, if we have not repented of our sins (as sin is defined in the Bible) and accepted this great gift of salvation, then that day in front of the Lord is going to be extremely frightening, a day of pain and regret and weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It’s not going to matter if we found ourselves, lived our dreams, did what made us happy on earth. It’s not going to matter if we were the wokest woke person who ever woked.
On that day, the ONLY thing that will matter is whether we are right with God. And if you somehow have ended up rejecting the Jesus of scripture when you rejected your Sovereign Grace church, then you are in deep trouble.
Don’t let disillusionment with a particular church system lead you to turn away from Christ. He is all that matters, and His work on your behalf is the only thing that will stand between you and eternity in hell. No matter what our pagan culture may be telling us, God is still God, sin is still sin, and we all need a Savior.
Go back to the Bible. Read the scriptures. Let the Holy Spirit illuminate them. Allow yourself to be convicted and transformed by God’s Word.
Love and blessings,
Kris
© 2019, Kris. All rights reserved.
Nickname, it was a sick system on so many levels, and Brent helped perpetrate it. You can find his name on so many old comments, and before the internet was “cleaned up” you could find actual pdf’s. In addition to the strict teachings on courtship there were also the teachings on modesty that took things to the extreme. Here’s an old comment from the Wartburg site with reference to a Nate Morales post….
“Evie on Fri Feb 15, 2013 at 12:34 PM said:
Totally Eagle. They created a sick system. A system that focused on women being the ultimate source of the cause of sexual predation and sin. A system that put the burden on women to be modest and not to cause men to lust. But what happens when a man is found lusting after boys and there’s no woman to blame? Wheres the sin in that? Hmm, guess we’ll keep that one on the down-low.
And while Brent Detwiler is so fond of saying he knew nothing about Nate Morales and apparently thinks Paula Poe was involved (?) and that that if he had known of Morales he would have done something yada yada, there’s NO DOUBT Brent Detwiler was one of the Pharisees of SGM who helped create the atmosphere for all this to have happened in. Do we know of any other cases where Brent became aware of incidences of male on male misconduct similar to the Morales incidents and failed to respond like his FELLOW SGM LEADERS that he was banded to failed to respond? Detwiler was the KING of Female Modesty and Courtship rules. He wrote the scripts! All of which contributed to the problems of targeting women as the focus sexual sin & temptation and not men in SGM. As a pastor for over 30 years, is he maintaining he never knew of or personally dealt with any similar homosexual issues? Or is he just saying he didnt know about the specific incidences involving Morales and of those persons involved in the lawsuits?”
Courtship teachings actually originated with Bill Gothard before PDI/SGM…and we all know what a wacko he was.
Thanks Kris. Missed the word ” libel” last night, I was tired.
While I don’t see myself as “expert” the way some authors writing about modern “shepherding and authority”, or “discipleship movement” history may be, who know all the ins and outs of Bob Weiner vs The Ft Lauderdale 5 vs Gothard vs the rest of them, I do think I speak with some legitimate experience and much reading, when I say that PDI/SGM was shepherding, and the A team enforced it. In degrees they were probably nowhere as bad as Maranatha ministries (Weiner), and in doctrine the shift to Calvinism was unique to my knowledge.
One weird thing with SGM was when they adopted a strong stance on the doctrine of indwelling sin and weaponized it. Its true that we will sin until death, but my husband once said to our SGM pastor that what defines us at the core of our being, what most defines us, is that we are new creations, with a new heart and a new spirit. And greater is he who is in us, than he who is in the world. We are first and foremost born again, regenerated, and saved, and that is greater than all our sin and we can have hope that He who began a good work will complete it.
The SGM pastor thought about it and said that he had a real hard time with saying that at our core Christians have a new heart and new spirit that most defines us. He thought that at our core we had to see ourselves as idolaters with sinful and deceived hearts. He is welcome to his opinion, but this concept led to the practice of leaders saying they could see you sin better than you, and they knew what your sinful motives were even when you thought your motives were good. Hence we get this:
“After C.J., no one is more responsible for the demise of CLC and SGM than Joshua. That is why he fled to Vancouver, Canada It wasn’t for an education. It was to get away. He wasn’t willing to lead in righteousness.”
Josh left and went to seminary, not because as he said he realized he was never properly trained for the pastorate and was not qualified to lead CLC and wanted to study at seminary (I believe him), but here we have an ex apostle looking into Josh’s heart and seeing that the real reason was just to get away and unwillingness to lead. I look back and the whole way that organization operated was thick with leaders accusing hearts and motives if you didn’t toe the line. But that was OK for them to judge hearts and motives, it wasn’t sin or libel…because they had this anointing to see other people’s sin. Ugh.
Somewhere- I have greatly appreciated your posting history, and you are one of the people here I’ve thought it might be nice to sit down over lunch one day and meet, even though I don’t plan to go that route and lose my current anony status. I like you. But when I post a long post with a link to an essay, and your response is to accuse me of hate, that is just so SGM. Instead of responding to the substance of what I talked about ( Brent as am apostle, his essay on apostles and what happened at the end) you turn around and ignore and deflect from the substance of what I was saying to just pass judgement on my heart. I don’t hate the guy. Don’t get SGM on me.
Anyway, I may have transgressed Kris’ new boundaries so I better stop….feel free to delete Kris and no offense taken.
5years
My apologies as it appears as i offended you. Sincerely, i am sorry.
I appreciate your postings here. I also appreciate what Brent has done as well to shed light on what would have left my life in confusion after 20+ years in that cult. It wasn’t until his release of their emails that it all began to make sense to me. Im forever grateful for the Lord using him this way. I believe im protective of that role he has played in my life, as well as for others.
To Kris’ point, I’m willing to move forward.
I must admit, I am at a loss here. I spent 30+ years in CLC and loved it! The people were amazing, the emphasis on the sovereignty of God and the atoning work of Christ. My family and I met 100s of other families and found our greatest friends there. For me it was the time of my life. I do get why it had to end, though; man worship. I am glad to say that never sat right with me but I navigated through it. I never forgot who saved me and I always kept my eyes on Him. No pastor ever asked me about my sin. Any talks like that we’re initiated by me and they always readily admitted challenges of their own. I guess we all had different experiences.
I was at the NJ church for a bit and really enjoyed it. When I started going, we were meeting in a high school. Everyone was really excited about the new building when we moved into it. My family was too. After a few years in the new building I started noticing a revolving door of new people joining, but people that had been there for a while leaving. It became apparent to me, that the church was no longer growing. The culture that attracted me to the church in the first place did not seem to carryover to the new building. I think a lot of it had to do with all of the drama around the time Brent released his documents. When people look for a new church they start by searching the Internet. I realized that the stories on the Internet were going to be an impediment to our growth but others just seemed to be in denial. Maybe they were not in denial but they simply denied publicly that it was a problem. Then the stories of the sexual abuse came out. I just could not wrap my brain around why we would stay in that denomination. The senior pastor had been there for a very long time and I think he felt like he should be loyal to SGM given the fact that SGM sent him to plant the church. It did not matter if I agreed with that or not…. I just knew I could not change it.
Friends in Florida went to one of the churches that was leaving SGM. The pastor was a guy named Aaron and he would preach at our church when we were in the high school. My friends told me that almost all of the churches in Florida were leaving. I became hopeful that maybe our church would leave. That is when the blogs started to get some of my attention, as well as Brent’s website.
I remember the pastor in the Jacksonville Church, Jesse Jarvis, made the most simple, common-sense statement about why they were leaving SGM. He said that “they were tired of the vague and one-sided explanations in response to all their questions”. When I read that statement, I knew right away that that was exactly what I was experiencing. I also came to the realization that I could never change that about my own church or the denomination. I was not angry, and I did not take any of it personal.
Leaving was very disappointing to me and my family. I felt like I had come to a conclusion about the way the denomination operated. My friend’s husband, in our CG, summed it up this way when I expressed my concerns: They could not change how they did things any sooner than I could get Starbucks to serve me a Dunkin‘ Donuts coffee. So, regardless of everything I read on the blogs, that little metaphor did it for me. I did not experience any abuse, but I did want something that operated a little more independently. Looking at what has developed the last five years, it was clearly the right choice to leave.
Thanks somewhere, that was nice. We are good.
I tend to think these days that God may shake the nation so much in the coming years that the church will be pruned severely but for our good. I’m guessing economic collapse, but maybe natural disasters, or blackouts or plagues. We’ll be forced into old fashioned true Christianity, and maybe revival in the middle of chaos will be glorious. And anything built on sand won’t hold up to the incoming waves.
‘Embarrassed Believer’, you could have a mixed experience at CLC, especially if you hadn’t been groomed for leadership in any way. I can imagine drifting through a membership experience and never hitting one deep pothole or big bump, in the road, if you weren’t abused in some way, and, if your kids didn’t get abused in some way and, if you never knew anyone else who was abused… But, I can hardly imagine being there 30 years and not seeing others abused or being abused in some way yourself. That’s how pervasive the emotional and spiritual abuse was at that church! It was from the top down and, it infiltrated all the leadership and of course, it was leveled at anyone caught in any level of sin, in the eyes of leadership. Yes, there were moments when CLC social life was pleasant and there were service opportunities that were worthwhile. Celebration could be fun and there were certainly times the teaching was helpful. I enjoyed worship and some of the guest speakers, too. The earlier years were better or worse, in some ways, from the latter, with varying levels of abuse in each era. But, the truth is, there was such a deep level of deceit among the pastors. They were not the shining examples they portrayed themselves to be! That just can’t be covered over and, forgotten. And, in the end, we had been unduly separated from all the people we cared for or cared about, in that church. There was absolutely no reason for us to stay. And, I don’t think our experience was unique. We left before Brent’s missives hit the fan and I only wish we had left many, many years before! I am ‘truly embarrassed’ at how long it took us to leave!
Kris, I couldn’t have said it better. Like you, I am sad and I pray. God can work a miracle. God wants their marriage to last and will be willing g to help them, even if it does not seem like it. He will not oppose them if they desire to please him by perservering.
5years, Brent, and A Kindred Sprit, I say this with all all love and gentleness, it really isn’t edifying to have to scroll past the lengthy (I am with Kris, there) posts where you are more or less bickering. Please don’t force Kris to have have to moderate your comments; it is a trespass on her generosity. If you really think you can make progress take it offline. 5years. You have, on multiple occasions, stated your case against Brent. Let it rest, for the rest of us, please, let it go. My guess is you will be happier for it. Brent, please ignore 5years if he/she cannot let it go.
Just saying….I think there is a lot of truth in what you say.
Embarrassed Believer: many of us started out reading here and thinking we were better than the folks making u godly comme ts, too. I am now more sad that people have been hurt to the point that they have been pushed to where they are. Your response about bot having a negative experience is like many. I applaud your efforts to understand those that did.
SGMarlton- agree, Jesse cut through the garbage pretty quickly.
The only thing that I will add is that I have watched friends who were saved in SGM churches struggle the most since the scandal broke in 2011. Many have completely or partially shipwrecked their faith and many have divorced. I believe that because the abusive leadership and the reliance on leaders, when the lack of integrity of leaders was exposed, people found their house built on sand. Josh and Shannon seem to be in a similar place but have a more public profile. It is altogether sad.
Jenn Grover, it is not my intent to “bicker” and bog down the thread, or to disrespect Kris. I have no ax to grind with Brent. What I hate is hypocrisy, just as God hates hypocrisy…my comments are meant to help point out such in Brent. Brent is TRULY blind to his hypocrisy, a “blind guide,” and that’s a scary thing to me. He, too, will stand before the Lord one day.
I think it’s also important for those reading on this thread who might not “know” Brent to see what others have to say about him versus the persona he puts out to the public.
I like what Tim Chaillies wrote…
“God hates hypocrisy because hypocrisy misuses religion, taking advantage of its laws and decrees for self-advancement. Hypocrites want religion—even the Christian faith—only for the advantages they gain from it. They fail to truly turn their hearts to God and do good to God’s people.
It is important to understand what hypocrisy is not. Hypocrisy is not the disparity between what we are and what we long to be. It is not the gap between what we want to do and what we actually do. Rather, in the words of Kevin DeYoung, hypocrisy is ‘the gap between public persona and private character. Hypocrisy is the failure to practice what you preach. Appearing outwardly righteous to others, while actually being full of uncleanness and self-indulgence—that’s the definition of hypocrisy.’
This is exactly what so arouses God’s anger in these Old Testament passages. The people want the blessings of God and the approval of men, but without actually turning their hearts to God and submitting their lives to his rule. The people want to follow the law’s prescriptions for worship, but only out of custom and superstition, and only to look good in the eyes of others. They do not want to change their lives, their habits, their affections to conform to God’s will. DeYoung says, ‘The hypocrite is the Christian who uses the veneer of public virtue to cover the rot of private vice. He’s the man living a double life, the woman fooling her friends because she has church clothes, the student who proudly answers the questions in Sunday school and just as proudly romps through immorality the rest of the week.’
At heart, hypocrisy is theatrical religion, religion as a means of personal enrichment or enhanced reputation. It is an abomination to the God who sees and knows the heart. It is an abomination to the God who is blasphemed when people misuse his name, his law, his decrees.
The New Testament makes clear that God’s most severe judgments are reserved for hypocrites. Jesus never speaks in harsher terms than he does in Matthew 23 where he pours out woe after woe against the religious authorities. Six times he repeats, ‘Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!’ Another time he varies his words slightly by saying, ‘Woe to you, blind guides.’ He castigates these leaders for their insincerity, for making their religion a selfish pursuit, for blasphemously misusing the law of God. He offers the sternest warning: ‘You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell’(33)?
In Romans 2 we find Paul warning of the consequences of hypocrisy. ‘Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? … But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed’ (3, 5). God’s judgment falls on those who practice the ugly deeds of unrighteousness Paul has just listed. His judgment falls severely on those who condemn such sin publicly while indulging in it privately.
Though hypocrisy is an abomination to God that incites his sternest woes, still there is hope for the hypocrite. The hypocrite’s hope is Jesus Christ. Paul warns of the dire consequences of hypocrisy, but also offers this word of hope: ‘Do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance’ (Romans 2:4)? God holds off his immediate judgment against the hypocrite so he has time and opportunity to repent of that sin. And if he does, God will receive and cleanse him. Years earlier Jesus had rhetorically asked the Scribes and Pharisees, ‘You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell.’ He offered the answer through his crucifixion. They, even they, could be forgiven if they simply repented of their sin and turned to God, this time not only outwardly but first inwardly.”
I rarely come here anymore, I don’t give too much thought sgm or CLC nowadays. I seen to be finally past it all. Perhaps it’s because although I spent years at CLC, and had even attended TAG as a teenager, I never bought in to the huge emphasis on sin and self abasement. I remember one pastor, I think it was Robin, tell me I had a proud and independent spirit because I disagreed with him and refused to “submit” just because he was in leadership. I think he was shocked when I told him he was quite correct and that I had no intention of changing. My ancestors for too long and too hard for the right to be able to stand up and say what they thought for me to give that away.
Why I wasn’t tossed out I’m still not sure.
But this news saddens me. Josh and Greg S. we’re the only fiomer pastors I still held in any respect.
They weren’t perfect by any means, but they at least tried.
Josh was in waaay over his head when everything hit the fan. No real experience in the outside world, no college, no Seminary, his role model had just been shown to be a fraud. His world view had just cone crashing down. Is it any wonder he struggled? Made mistakes? I know I would have in his place, and I am about 20 years his senior.
hmmm…
GOB never changed. It just hid behind the next wave of name change N’ theology touting accountability.
huh?
Unfortunately, the masses bought it hook, line, and sinker. It is to this day.
What?
Both Larry, and C.J. assumed ‘authority’ Jesus never gave them.
What we see today is the devastating out workings of this. Attempting to bring accountability to those who attended T.A.G. they followed wave after wave having itchy ears. Their authority was forged, as was the makings of their religion. Both Larry and C.J. promised in the beginning of T.A.G. days in Washington D.C., to never to start a church—as neither were qualified. They broke their promise and as a result, many thousand have been injured. Many more have fallen away. They built their proverbial religious 501c3 upon the sand. How many more victims will yet be produced by this madness, and present darkness? Time will tell.
Jesus is ‘still’ concerned for what some have done to His church?
(tears)
You bet!
I think Jim Kelly’s last comment brings a truth out, Josh was young and way over his head.
But it does reflect, the core foundation of CLC, of “leaven” that was interwoven in leadership perspectives from the beginning, and well as currently.
For they(leadership), we (congregation) very young, so looking back, CLC leadership had it backwards, so when Paul was saying, “the office of elder” the reality is, of the twisting, of this very scripture, for ( cj ) ( LT) and leadership’s views, of solidifying their power, and their authority and they’re lording of the Shepherding doctrine, and as in the foundation of their core beliefs.For they demanded that in there youth, to be honored and respected.
So, when in reality, Paul was defining the office of the “elder” in the Greek elder means “elder” (I’m just having a play on words but you get my point) A man of God, proven in life, inside the church as well without, in the world, seasoned with life, having raised children, and even grandchildren, seasoned with the affairs of this life, so to share with discernment and experience of the scriptures as a senior pastor, or elder. So, with my own personal experience in life having been in CLC for 13 years, had to relearn what Paul was really saying.
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1 Timothy 3:1-7 NASB
A Kindred Spirit
To your post, look at Jesus’s Words to the 7 Congregations in the Book of Revelation. No what man or religious leadership say, Jesus’s Words are the final assement.
Revelation chapter 2: 1-29
“And he who overcomes, and guards My works until the end, to him I shall give authority over the nations, and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron, as the potter’s vessels shall be broken to pieces, as I also have received from My Father. “And I shall give him the morning star. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.” ’
(Revelation) 2:26-29 TS2009
I am going to respond to just some of the erroneous, slanderous and disconcerting statements above as representative of the whole.
5yrsinPDI
Quote: “You had one concept of apostles, and the A team/Regional leaders came to hold to another concept. You refused as a matter of conscience to sign the covenant statement with regard to this. Your conscience, Romans 14, you made a decision to not go along with the team. You got ousted. … You got kicked out.”
Comment: You are wrong again! Nowhere in my article does it state, imply or suggest that I “got ousted” and “kicked out” because I didn’t agree with “the covenant statement.” This is the kind of reckless research that characterizes so many or your false assertions over the years. Here is truth.
At our June 2006 apostolic team retreat, a Membership Agreement for Sovereign Grace churches was approved by the majority. That is by C.J. Mahaney, Dave Harvey, and Steve Shank. I dissented because it was contrary to the teaching of Scripture. Churches in the New Testament were not “independent and autonomously governed entities.” Here is the salient quote from the agreement.
“Member churches and Sovereign Grace as independent and autonomously governed entities jointly agree to be responsible for all respective claims, loss, damage, liability, or expenses occasioned or claimed by reason of acts or neglects of their own employees or visitors or of independent contractors.”
The motive for making this change was purely pragmatic. It was not based upon a study of Scripture. It was done to avoid lawsuits against SGM. It is clear to me now that C.J. made this change because he knew about cases of child abuse at Celebration events and in SGM churches and did not want SGM to be held legally responsible when sued by victims.
Here’s what’s amazing though. By 2012, Harvey and Mahaney had changed their views on apostolic leadership and autonomous churches. In fact, the Chairman of the Polity Committee, Phil Sasser was arguing for apostolic leadership in local churches. So was his son, Nathan, and his son-in-law, Daniel Baker. That carried over into the 2015 Book of Church Order. Churches are not independent or autonomous in Sovereign Grace Churches, Inc. They can be thrown out of the denomination if they do not comply with all the rules and regulations laid down in the BCO.
But here’s the point. I was not thrown out of SGM or thrown off the apostolic team for my views. The above meeting when the Membership Agreement was approved took place in June 2006. I remained on the Board of Directors for 17 months until I resigned in November 2007. Then in April 2008 I planted a church north of Charlotte, NC as part of SGM. I continued to lead that church until August 2009 when I left because the corruption in SGM was unbearable. I began to write about it in January 2010.
AKS, you are an excellent poster and always have been. It is absolutely unfair and ungodly to talk about problems with Harris or CJ or anybody SGM and their public ministry while giving a pass (more than a pass, giving adulation) to somebody who was exactly the same if not worse for 25 years and won’t admit it. There is also nothing wrong if your post is lengthy. Those who are addicted to twitter bites can skip over it, and those who want to read a lengthy post can do so.
I’m very happy Jen. I have a new heart and new spirit and rivers of living water within and I thank God!! I am more than just a sinner whose heart is an idol factory, and I can go into the very presence of God. I can eat and drink from the words of scripture. I am grateful.
You know what frustrates me the most about this subject? All the pastors and counselors we’ve known who don’t like SGM and saw the legalism and control, but won’t read Detwiler because they say he is insane or psycho or words like that.
Just this past Sunday at church the pastor was chatting with us afterwards and he mentions a good little book by Machowski for working with kids. My husband says “Did you know he is SGM”?. The pastor says “He is? Machowski is SGM?” Hubby says yup, and even if it might be good and might be helpful with kids, we just don’t read SGM. So I pipe up and tell Pastor about the poor lady with the pedophile hub who Machowski and Harvey told to take hubby back when he got out of jail, (with the kids in the house) and how hub said he didn’t want to get free of his peodophile fantasies because they bring him such pleasure.
Pastor looks sort of sick, and then he says but he can’t understand all this, he read CJ’s book on the cross and humility and the books were good. Hubby says a few things about CJ and our time in PDI, and poor pastor is staring at us looking sicker. He isn’t an internet guy much, and busy with his flock, and we love the guy. But the bottom line by the end is that he can’t listen to Brent either because in his words, Brent is insane. I quote. He’ll listen to us and trusts us when we talk about what was going on, and he knows how Mohler broke with CJ, and he’s maybe naive and having to face some awful truths and struggling, but, I can’t use Brent at all with this guy. And this is one of several good people we know in leadership who won’t read Brent.
I don’t hate BD. I wish he would do an expose of shepherding and what he taught and enforced and how wrong it was and the bondage it brought people into. If he would just come clean about himself and how wrong he was, like Bob Mumford did with Shepherding, I think it would blow the lid off of all sorts of these abusive groups and he could be such an asset to pastors and churches and people. But instead, so many good folks look at him and just see bitter and unrepentant and psycho rants and reject his works.
Anyway, maybe it is useless to ever bring the subject up anymore, you could be right Jen, but when I see him lauded and Josh ripped apart, it seems unjust, and so I speak up, and AKS speaks up, and occasionally others speak up.
Let me ask you Jen…..do you think it is acceptable for BD to say here what Josh’s true motives are in leaving CLC to go to seminary? Is it OK for him to disagree with the reasons Josh gave and attribute to Josh the lowest of sinful motives? Is that OK with you? Why are you not speaking up about that on a thread discussing Josh Harris? You call it bickering? Do you feel any outrage that somebody would come on here and claim to know the true motives of Josh Harris’ heart? Isn’t that the same old, same old, demonic SGM anointing to see your sin that you can’t see yourself?
I feel sorry for Josh, no matter how badly he failed in many ways. To spend his formative years in ministry under the A team including BD, well, may God restore the years the locust has eaten for him and his wife.
Thanks, 5 years.
It’s obvious that Brent suffers from some type of personality disorder(s). Only God knows what makes him tick and why he “appears” to lack the self-awareness and capacity for introspection that allows a person to take an honest look at themself.
God reminds me frequently that I need to pray for such individuals. He knows how much they agitate me yet He seems to consistently place them in my path.
Is it any wonder that poor Josh and Shannon are struggling having been subjected to the craziness and likes of such for so many years.
Brent, I am hesitant to say much because of Kris asking us not to get into this at length. I don’t want to disagree because you were there and its your time line and so I will say OK to your post, maybe I am wrong in how I interpreted it. Kris, please leave this sentence up in fairness to Brent.
But you know how before two people actually leave each other, for a long time in the marriage maybe they are not communicating and already separate? When I read your long essay on apostles, and see things like this:
“To: Dave Harvey
Subject: RE: Question
I get it – you didn’t read it. Oh well, it was a good try…”
Let’s just say the covenant relationship is already breaking down. You were on a team with all those guys and Harvey, the number two man looking in from the cheap seats, isn’t even bothering to read your stuff.
More quotes:
2006-2007 when C.J.’s hostility toward me was acute. There are many other examples.
During the June 2007 retreat, I was confronted for not changing my position on apostolic ministry and for not being “influenced” by Jeff (i.e., agreeing with his positions)
In C.J.’s world, however, my positions on these issues were unacceptable and due to my pride and lack of scholarship. Dave and Steve agreed.
***********
Let me be clear- I believe you that you honestly held to your beliefs about apostles from conviction, not pride or lack of study.
But as I read the whole thing, you know how a woman might say she left the marriage? She resigned? She dumped him? You can say she did it, but generally she was forced into it.
In the same way, you can say you resigned, but looking at what you said, you were thrust into an environment where CJ is hostile and the A team is labeling you as proud and theologically lazy (lack of study). I mean how on earth were you not forced to resign? Right or wrong, you can’t work together with that. And like I said, the minute you were unwilling to lay aside your doctrinal belief in a non essential (IMO) where all the Reformed Big Dogs would have agreed with Harvey and CJ, and when you refused to sign the membership agreement, how did you not expect to see them turn on you with hostility and accusation? You resigned, but at the same time you were being forced out. That is how SGM forced people out- accusations of pride, and hostility for not toeing the line.
I better stop here. I wish you would go back and read Systematic Theologies on the Sovereignty of God and see that God was doing this and God was behind it? Why? First, to open your eyes to the structure you helped create that damaged a great many sheep. You had to suffer what you made them suffer. I am sure there are other reasons but that is between you and God. It wasn’t CJ or Jeff or Harvey, it was God. God did it for a reason, and he is still after you.
Brent:
I have a question for you?
Do you currently still believe in the sovereignty of God?
please I’m not trying to trap you, or insult your intelligence!
I’m going to give some perspective to my point.
Back when you 1st came to CLC,in the early 80’s, you brought to the CLC leadership, credentials, and theological training, with accreditation.
and with that training the skills as a contribution to CLC leaderships team effort.
For if my memory serves me correctly, we as a young congregation were wanting credibility with in the community, both in the current Church world, but the greater community as well.
We as a congregation just wanted to make a impact, to show the world,that the Gospel of the Good news, and how Jesus changes life’s, from the kingdom of Darkness, to the Kingdom of light was relevant for today.
It has been fully documented, of the fruit of what reality “is” and “was” at CLC, of the effects on, and of the people, family’s, and even congregations,that have seen the disappointments, heart aches, and the disillusionment of the the way leadership tried and did implemented their doctrines and belief systems at CLC in the early years.
It has been fully documented of the cover-ups as well, not to rehash here.
In your own words Brent, how you have been a witness to the disappointments, the heart aches, disillusionment of your treatment from Leadership, as you try to do the right thing, you tried to bring accountability to the top of the leadership (cj).
I will try to give a example, may a bit crude but here goes.
you have a well meaning scientist, who want to help making in the advancement of technology, to bring quick healing and restoration to the advancement of medical profession.
But this well meaning scientist, takes some deviations from tried and tested protocols,
and first the experiment,seems to have wondrous results on cell growth and multiplication.
But in the rush to get results,And neglect, the double blind “testing” as a Standard.
For Paul does talk about the roles and accountability of both the Congregation as it relates to local leadership in there related functions as a living Body of Christ.
So, what seemed to be a grate service and breakthrough to the medical community, turned out to be a Frankenstein disaster.
so I give my observation:
Brent I’m thinking about you and your family’s experience, as you have testified, and seen first hand “The Disaster” how you were in be part of as “refiner” of this movement, maybe not the “originator” of the movement,but you had a foundational refining of that “systematic theological view”,as it related to CLC core belief systems, and implantation that turned on you! the very leaders your were in “covenant” with. Is that why CLC got its name? “Convenient Life Church” the very men you labored with, probably wept with prayed with, you get my point.
You have actually have felt the 1st fruits of this harvest,not what you signed up for I’m sure, my brother none of us did, who were part of this movement known as CLC.
The very system you helped refine, ate you for lunch and spit you out! when again I make the point for emphasis you held (cj) accountable, the more you saw the discrepancies, the more you dug in, and to your surprise, the very foundation you held your self too,others did not!
the more you dug and found the “dark-side ” of this movement,You my had to make a choice, part of your choice,was that you were compelled exposed the ” Dark-side” but my brother, you still in the shadow.
The double Blind Testing, I used in my example, is to point out that your “systematic theological views, may have added to your blindness and from Allowing the Congregations from actually from “testing” your views, and not being able to bring the same accountability to CLC leadership at the time. When You did see(the Dark-side in (cj) and in CLC leadership, You did not see the effects on your self.
As it has been said many times, there is a blindness to you seeing “the other point of view” Could the Sovereignty OF God be out side of your understanding at present?
Could the appeal of countless Witnesses over the years have a VALID testimony to “dark-side ” of this movement? and could you have a role to play in that accountability ?
Not for a second do I believe, or anyone as Witnesses as testified on survivors believe you singed up to do any harm to anyone,but (cj) him self in the early 90’s said in public” I cant be deceived” I wonder, how many eyebrows were raised that sunday morning at Magruder High School.
Do you hold to (cj) statement as well? it could explain “why the blindness”, and the lack of accountability is this conversation.
Final thought I’m entreating you as a brother in the Lord and not a enemy.
I’m sure if any of my thoughts of your statements well get adjusted, if not factual, I do welcome your thoughts.
5yearsinPDI,
Re: Covenant Fellowship Church
You were a part of Covenant Fellowship Church in Glenn Mill, PA for five years when Sovereign Grace Churches, Inc. was called PDI (1997-2002). Dave Harvey was the sr. pastor (1990-2008). That is where you claim all the horrors of the shepherding movement were experienced by you. That is where your eyes were opened and you finally left. You wrote,
“If you were as against shepherding errors as your claim, you would have left SGM, the same way all of us who got our eyes opened finally left.”
Why is it then you have never criticized Dave Harvey or any of the pastors from CFC under whom you claim to have suffered such abuse? For example, Andy Farmer and Marty Machowski And why have you never criticized Mark Prater (Executive Director for Sovereign Grace) or Jared Mellinger (sr. pastor since 2008)? All of these men have covered up for C.J., covered up the sexual abuse of children at CFC, and deceived CFC about what is going on in SGC for a long time.
So why have you never spoken out against your abusive pastors who were “shoving shepherding errors down your throat”? Instead you attack me with whom you have no experience whatsoever. Let me ask, have those men been providing much of the slanderous information you’ve used against me? Have you been in contact with Dave Harvey? Is that why you are completely silent about their evil ways? I think so. Those men despise me because I have exposed their evil deeds. They have manufactured all kinds of evil reports to discredit me. Mellinger even told CFC that reading my blog was worse than viewing pornography. Why don’t you speak out about that – just once?
5yearsinPDI
Re: God’s Sovereignty
Here is what I wrote about my sufferings.
“I was the one addressing “authoritarian abuse” and many other issues. C.J. and his surrogates came after me as a result. It was horrible. See my article about Ken Sande’s involvement. http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/ken-sande-counseled-cj-mahaney-to-confess-he-was-so-very-gui.html. He told C.J. he needed to confess, “I’m guilty, so very guilty!” for a litany of sins against me. C.J. cut him off.”
Here is your response.
“You might want to go back and read your Reformed theology systematic theologies on the sovereignty of God. You seem to be theologically barren about your life and what God ordained for you with CJ and the rest. God ordained it, God allowed it, and you don’t seem to see God in it. I think you would find some emotional rest and peace if you could get to the place of seeing God behind CJ. Maybe spend some time studying the sovereignty of God, and how even when people mistreat us, God is in it for His perfect purpose.”
Your counsel to me is the exact counsel too often given to people in SGM when they suffered injury or injustice. “God ordained it, God allowed it, and you don’t seem to see God in it.” There is no empathy. No willingness to identify with the suffering. No commitment to address the injustice. Your counsel is the kind of counsel that was given to victims of sexual abuse in SGM.
You say, “I think you would find some emotional rest and peace if you could get to the place of seeing God behind CJ.” What? I’ve always seen God in the injustices and persecutions I’ve suffered including those that have come from you. I’ve been terribly pained by them but I’ve never complained about them or been tempted to challenge God’s “perfect purpose.” He is good, wise and sovereign even when my path is hard, painful or difficult to search out. I have taught and studied that for over 40 years.
That’s why I’ve never struggle with “the problem of pain.” I have always been astounded by the present of pleasure. But here is what you miss. When people are going through great trials or suffering terrible injustice, they need to be helped, heard, console, and encouraged to share the intense pain they are experiencing.
I have always seen “God behind C.J.” His callousness has kept the story of abuse on the front page for 8 years. It remains there. Through this the Lord has brought about change throughout the evangelical church when it comes to reporting child abuse, protecting against abuse, and helping victims of abuse. The arrogance of SGC has been judged. But the wisdom of God has been exalted.
WalkingWounded says:
July 22, 2019 at 8:34 am
“I resigned in November 2007 after a three year intense process of trying to address the serious issue of pride, deceit, abuse, and hypocrisy in C.J.’s life.“
@Brent So during that three year ‘intense’ process how many times did you get up at Celebration and individual churches lauding CJ and citing his humility, lack of pride, integrity, etc. You may want to check your heart on that.
___
How many times did I honor C.J. “during the three year ‘intense’ process.” None. The last time I honored C.J. was in September 2004.
This separation is tragic. More tragic is the obvious fact that both Joshua and Shannon appear to be leaving orthodox Christianity. Where exactly they will land, time will tell. They appear to me to be changing one set of leaders (Reformed Charismatic Christianity) for another (liberal thought leaders both “christian” and secular). You see that in the hashtags and in those they choose to quote….and just reading the little bit they do have to say. THAT is the MAJOR story.
I don’t so much care about Josh’s books one way or the other. Yes I bought them and read them. Josh seems to be redefining his own words. What I read was a clear strategy for maintaining purity through singleness, but he also clearly stated that it was not the only way. He seems to have forgotten what he actually wrote. Maybe his ideas changed over time…I’m not charismatic and so I did not follow all that stuff too closely.
J & S think they are breaking free. I think they are just exchanging masters. They seem to see Judas as their better example these days. I do not think it will bring them the satisfaction they anticipate. In the meantime, what are the kids seeing and learning from it? So tragic.
Josh is once again leading before learning – this time as a business “expert.” To me it looks like a replay of the same mistake. For someone who seems to think his previous teachings were a giant mistake, I wonder why he wants to play expert again in a new field. Who wants to follow the guy who admits he misled thousands? My heart goes out to him in that I do not think his books were the disaster he seems to now think they were. If people made messes of their lives with that simple advice, they need to own it and not blame Josh. Still, failure is how he seems to see it now. So…why is he doing the same thing all over again? He’s no more a business expert than he was a marriage expert.
Shannon is producing some music that may or may not succeed. She appears to me to have a desperate need for praise and attention. I get the impression that dissatisfaction has been festering in her soul for a very long time. I am sad for her. She commented about everyone leaving them….but aren’t they the ones who left not only their church but even the country? In her reflection, she too is rewriting things.
I cannot fathom ever turning my back on my faith. It is really hard for me to imagine a pastor and his wife doing it. From my angle of sight on this…it looks to me like they had faith while it paid them in money and praise, but not enough faith to stand through difficult testing. IOW, not genuine but selfish “faith.” I find it strange that this started because of the exposure of bad advise and lawsuits….yet all these years later they’ve made it about themselves.
That said, those who were understandably hurt still own some of these results. The criticism developed a life of its own and in some ways became its own idol. Nothing rights the wrongs, but destroying everyone and everything can become a substitute for some. I say that but must add PROTECT CHILDREN!!!!!! PERIOD!!! Abusing God’s grace by allowing it to provide cover for horrible evils is vile and unacceptable.
Error needs to be corrected. Scripture is full of examples. This is a lot more than that. It appears to me that some of the theological error that made its way through churches during Josh’s tenure are still infecting his thinking. Let’s not forget, though, that he was the senior pastor. The church didn’t do this to him. He is doing it to himself; and if he thinks he misled people before, just wait until he carries the burden of derailing other people’s orthodox Christian faith.
Kris,
Enough yet?
A Kindred Spirit says:
July 22, 2019 at 11:32 am
Listed below are some of points Brett Detwiler teaches about Courtship/Dating that caught my attention. I have inserted my comments below each “point.”
• Courtship is not for fun.
If courtship isn’t fun I wonder what it should be. Should it be mundane or a chore? Sure it should be taken seriously and will be some work but shouldn’t a couple have fun exploring whether they are a good match for each other? Is this a good way to start a marriage? I question of the wisdom of wanting to get married to someone that I can’t even have a fun experience with.
___
Why are you intentionally misrepresenting what is the outline and what I have taught? That is so wrong. I have the outline on “Getting Ready” in front of me. Here is the exact quote about courtship and fun. Nowhere do I write or imply, “Courtship is not for fun.” That is totally false.
“Starting a courtship is fun and exciting but it is important to remember that courtship is purposeful. It is the process whereby you seek to discover whether this is the person you are to marry.” (I.A.3.)
You also blatantly misrepresented what I wrote about “arranged marriages.” I have never promoted arranged marriages though they worked in the Bible and they work in many cultures around the world. I even performed an arranged marriage in India. They
were very happily married. That said, I have never advocated for the practice.
You falsely quote the outline, “Role oriented marriages – the reason why arranged marriages work.” That is not in the outline from the conference. And then you make this comment
“Well at least Detweiler is being honest about this. He is promoting “arranged” marriages. It sounds like he wants the children’s parents to arrange a marriage. I wouldn’t want my parents deciding especially without my input on who my mate should be.”
That is a total misrepresentation. This is the exact quote from the outline.
“Believe in differing roles and responsibility for men and women. This is why “arranged” marriages can work in other cultures.” (III.D.2)
That is all I said. I could go on and on about your false statements.
A Kindred Spirit says:
July 22, 2019 at 2:48 pm
Do we know of any other cases where Brent became aware of incidences of male on male misconduct similar to the Morales incidents and failed to respond like his FELLOW SGM LEADERS that he was banded to failed to respond?
As a pastor for over 30 years, is he maintaining he never knew of or personally dealt with any similar homosexual issues? Or is he just saying he didn’t know about the specific incidences involving Morales and of those persons involved in the lawsuits?”
____
I have addressed this many times including on this blog. I never heard of any “male on male” crimes like those committed by Morales. I would have insisted they be reported to law enforcement.”
I never knew of any criminal homosexual activity between adult and children or boys. I did help homosexual or lesbian adults address their sin and change. In the same way, I didn’t know about any of the victims in the lawsuit. C.J. kept that information from me because I had a history of reporting the sexual abuse of children to law enforcement.
5yearsinPDI says:
July 22, 2019 at 3:38 pm
“After C.J., no one is more responsible for the demise of CLC and SGM than Joshua. That is why he fled to Vancouver, Canada. It wasn’t for an education. It was to get away. He wasn’t willing to lead in righteousness.”
Josh left and went to seminary, not because as he said he realized he was never properly trained for the pastorate and was not qualified to lead CLC and wanted to study at seminary (I believe him), but here we have an ex apostle looking into Josh’s heart and seeing that the real reason was just to get away and unwillingness to lead. I look back and the whole way that organization operated was thick with leaders accusing hearts and motives if you didn’t toe the line.
____
My description is accurate and gracious. Here is more detail about why Josh left CLC. He never told the truth to CLC about what was really going on with the elders. His announcement was mostly spin like so much else Joshua puts out.
just saying… says:
July 20, 2019 at 12:48 am
Then, he [Josh] got entangled in the coverup when Grant admitted his dates were wrong in the Nate Morales trial and conflicted with statements Josh made to the congregation. Under extreme pressure to lie from the elders, Josh neither confirmed or denied the contradiction and instead disclosed he had been sexually abused as a child.
Then, the elders in a vote of no-confidence voted that Josh had to go. Without trashing the church or the pastors or his predecessors or the congregations or the blogs, Josh resigned to “go to seminary”.
somewhere- LOL.
Brent- While I feel no need to defend myself to you, and think you will remain psychologically disturbed until you recognize that you were not just a victim but a perpetrator (I don’t mean sexual, I mean the authoritarian, man in the place of God crap) I will say the following as vaguely as I can. I hope it helps you.
I had something of a relationship with somebody whose name has nationwide recognition and they were precious to me and a blessing. I looked up to them.
At one point, going back at least a few years, maybe 4 or 5, I talked to them about my grave concerns about Dave Harvey, because they were going to be at a venue with Harvey. This person already seemed fully “woke” about CJ, but thought Harvey was good guy for leaving SGM. They didn’t know much about SGM.
I explained about Dave leaving his church under discipline in a way that men who Dave helped degift would never have been allowed to do. (Not that I thought the discipline was right if what I read about it was accurate, but it was the principle of the thing.)
I then concentrated on my evaluation of SGM apostles and how Dave was #2 man in the business. I said that even if he never did anything immoral, and even if he never covered up anything (If!!!), he presided over the denomination and the board and he owed the victims and the sheep some form of apology for what happened on his watch. It’s like David and the Gibeonites….the problem happened with King Saul, but God wanted David to make restitution for his predecessor and clean up the mess he inherited. I felt that Harvey cut and run in silence and it was wrong.
This person I was speaking to- I quote- said “I agree with you 100%”. They believed me fully and said that as soon as they saw Harvey, and knew they would have a chance to speak with him, they would bring all this up. They said they’d tell me how it went.
Never heard from them. 3 emails ignored. I had to let it go. It was disappointing but I can’t say I am surprised and mostly I felt a burden to pray for them. God has blessed and increased their ministry. Lol.
My husband and I have regularly stuck our neck out talking to people in SGM, and pastors/leaders using SGM materials, about the whole lot. I am just not going to go into more detail and defend myself to you but no, I am not in contact with any SGM pastors. And I am pretty sure I have made cracks here about the comment how blogs are worse than porn. I know we’ve repeated it to others along the line as evidence of the disgustingness of SGM that the man was not forced to apologize in public for that.
Look, I am sure you’ve had pain, but until you see yourself as an apostle who created pain and as a perpetrator of sin against the flock, you’ll be stuck in this rut. And if it makes you happy I can say that every leader still in SGM I would hold guilty as well for enabling CJ. God knows their hearts and blindness and I pray He has the same mercy on them he had on me who was once a stupid blaspheming teenager followed by a saved charismatic whacko. Life with Jesus Christ is a journey.
Sorry Kris :)
Kris, I apologize. You mean more to me than BD ever will and I should have ignored it all w/o defending myself. I am sorry I allowed myself to be drawn back in.
Brent,
Those were quotes from Steve’s blog, they weren’t my words. You can find them all here…
https://ikdg.wordpress.com/tag/brent-detwiler/
5 Years in PDI:
Its hard not to get drawn into the fray, I experienced the same rollercoaster emotions, when I was confronting a local leader, that he is evolved into the same shepherding controlling, lens of scripture interpretation and implementation and how they want to maintain their leadership and their prestige.
After the last rant, I said I’m not going to get drawn into that again! then something comes up and I find myself getting drawn into it again
God bless you for your heart and effert, no strings attached.
Shalom.
How about a straight forward question for Brent, that actually address the heart of all this back and forth:
Brent, do you think there are things about the original SGM (PDI) structure, things that you had a hand in establishing and continuing, that you now agree allowed for the leadership abuse?
If no, okay, we can stop right there. There are differences of opinion that will not be settled here.
If yes, are you now sorry about your contribution?
That’s all, and we can end this. No need for specifics, as (in my opinion) we are drowning and choking on specifics right now.
Here is a re-post from Brent the last time I ask Him a question.
just for clarity, and maybe he has changed his position.
Gen 1 to Rev 22 says:
May 16, 2018 at 8:11 am
Hello Brent:
A few thoughts:
I have 3 questions for you, if I may.
In your last post on this site, you mention, the word “apostle”, could you for my edification, please define that term as defined, in the scriptures?
Could you for the moment refrain from using, theological definitions, other than out of scriptures them self’s please.
Has, your scriptural understandings, changed from the time you came to (GOB then to CLC time frame) from well over 40 years ago, to present?
For even in CLC leadership early 90’s from the pulpit, there were made statements, and proclamations, and requests, to throw away “all old tapes” of sermons of the of the last 20 years or so from (GOB CLC early years, time frame), for our current (CLC) understanding, and authority, of leadership’s view, is the valid, and authorized view, one of the manifestations of this mentality, was reflected by CJ’s push for (the authorized book store at the time), for he himself made remarks, of not having to go the (to other Christian book stores outside of CLC influence) everything you need is right here!
So, it seems that you had a profound, foundational, influence, on the leadership in those early years, or do you think looking back, is there anything you would have done differently, if not, why not?
I say this with all respect to you, and anyone who speaks publicly, and with history of documented sermons. If you were not a major player in the foundational role of (GOB CLC), who was? As you do qualify and state, you are a “apostle”.
I do want to kindly remind you, and anyone, who speaks, or writes, or publishes, has also to be open, to be tested, and proved, and examined, as stated in the scriptures.
While I/ our family was in CLC for 13 years, any “Testing or Proving” was at least, in the end of our membership time, was looked upon as “out of order”? Or need of” adjustment” in attitude? or a” bad heart issue”? as I have posted earlier in this thread. This seemed to be the collective view of leadership while we were in CLC. And it was/and is your definitions, as leaders of (GOB CLC SGM SGC).
The history of (SGMS) Blog bares out my statements both past and present.
Please review the following scriptures: the word “prove” is in the following verses. (KJV)
Deut: 8:2
Psa: 26:2
Rom: 12:2
2Cor: 13:5
Gal: 6:4
1Th: 5:21
For we, have all have our cross to bear in this life, as to the definition of laying our lives down, for the Gospels sake, and for the brethren in the body of Christ. But it has to be done in the light, with sincerity, and truth.
I will say that only the Lord Himself, only truly knows the heart, but we are looking form the outside in can only judge the fruit. I write this with all sincerity and truth and if I’m in error, please let me know.
11 These were also more noble men than they which were at Thessalonica, which received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Test all Things my brethren:
Brent Detwiler says:
May 16, 2018 at 8:56 am
I was not a part of TAB or GOB. I moved to CLC in 1982. My doctrine is found in the Sovereign Grace Statement of Faith. It has not changed. Apostles are men called to plant and build churches with the gospel (e.g., 1 Cor 3:10-15). My understanding of pastoral ministry is found in “Exercising Oversight but Not Lording It Over” on my blog.
Brent Detwiler says:
May 16, 2018 at 8:57 am
Correction: TAG (Take & Give) not TAB.
That was really well put, Out There. I’d say its perfectly expressed.
It is said that the mark of a good teacher is the ability to use less words, not more.
Thanks.
Hey all.
There is a thoughtful post up above by a “Sad4J&S”. It must have been hung up in moderation earlier. Worth a read.
Question and comment for you, Sad…..you said Josh is leaving orthodox Christianity. I haven’t been following him or this elsewhere. Is it really as bad as all that? Not disagreeing, just wondering. Got any quotes he has written? Is this another Rachel Held Evans? I hope not.
Also, you said Josh has no business experience. Yes and no. Some of us here, having experienced genuine church life, regard SGM as a business model. No matter what they have claimed over the years about church and churches, in many ways it was a business. Not always- I had three years of a great small group that was everything midweek fellowship should be and all that church experience should be. But for some folks they experienced business managers and not shepherds. My guess is that Josh has had a great deal of business experience.
Out There- he’s either working on a major missive or has cut and run (again). But you brought the core of the subject front and center so I’m hoping to see a response.
Wanted to welcome other new voices as well- Jim Kelley, SGMMarlton. Its so interesting to read the various thoughts and observations and experiences.
Hint if you are new and post- if you get hung up in moderation for a while and there are several posts after yours shows up, don’t feel like its pushy or anything to post a second time that you are new and made some comments previously. We can scroll up. I am pretty sure once the first one goes through, the ones after that get posted right away automatically.
An article about the “blaming and shaming” social media posts. I’m not a fan of many in the “patheos crowd” but I think the article shows how nasty and unChristlike Christians can be. You will have to click the link at the bottom to see the actual social media posts the author references.
___________________
“Joshua Harris Marriage Ending so Lori Alexander Blames the Wife?”
By Suzanne Titkemeyer
This is actually old news, from last week. I’ve refrained from commenting on this because others in the Quiverfull world were behaving so poorly, Larry Solomon, Trey Magnusson, Doug Wilson. It made the announce of the breakup of the Harris marriage small sad potatoes.
For those unfamiliar with Harris he had a huge influence on the Quiverfull and Evangelical ‘True Love Waits’ crowd. Not just teaching abstinence from sexual behavior outside of marriage, but going much farther, teaching that even thinking about another person in that would spoil your purity. Josh Harris wrote “I Kissing Dating Goodbye” and much of the purity culture people latched onto his ideas of soul ties, no dating, courtship only models.
His book was quite frankly obsessed with sex, while saying sex was only for marriage. Harris said you should wait to even kiss until after you’d spoken your marriage vows. Purity culture on steroids, and like steroids it did some damage to so many young people that followed his edicts. We’ve published so many stories here in the past from young people who came out of Quiverfull with strange ideas about relationships with the opposite sex that did nothing but create significant problems for them.
It’s interesting to note that all of the courtship/marriage couples in Harris’s various books are all divorced now. It does not say anything positive for the simplistic theology of purity culture working out in complex reality.
During my QF years I was always subtly opposed to this theology. But my youngest daughter bought it wholesale, hook, line and sinker, lecturing me on it while reading “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” and “Dateable. Are You? Are They?” By Justin Lookadoo.
My objection then and now is that part of growing up, growing independent is learning how to navigate relationships, friendships, other people, even if there is no romantic subtext going on. It’s an important skill that the tendency of Evangelicals to shelter their children skips.
Moot point now because Lookadoo has had a DUI arrest and renamed and reedited that book I mentioned. It used to be titled “R U Dateable” but seems to bc scrubbed from Amazon and other places.
A couple of years ago Joshua Harris apologized for his book, stopping publishers from releasing new copies. Enough time has passed that he realizes how harmful his words are. There’s even a movie out about it now. I’m not sure his apologies are enough for those harmed by the book. Only those who struggled with that version of purity culture can determine if it’s enough, and everything I’ve seen seems to suggest it is not.
Now Harris and his wife have announced they are separating and planning on divorcing. I feel horribly sad for them, but not surprised. Toxic purity culture takes two more victims.
Wife Shannon Harris is reportedly writing a play about her journey away from faith as well as the purity culture. I cannot wait to see what she comes up with.
I wish them both health, happiness and healing. Divorce is tough enough when you’re not in the public eye having to eat a heaping helping of Evangelical crow at the same time.
Most people are not surprised, but a few of our regular cultural enforcers have had a plethora of nasty things to say, in particular Lori Alexander of The Transformed Wife. How sick and sad. I’ve always said that fundamentalists and evangelicals eat their own dead.
This is the response of one of Lori’s Top Fans. How classy. How Christlike. There are many more I could share from the awful pile of nasty reactions at Lori Alexander’s various social media accounts, but this is pretty much the pinnacle of blaming and shaming. It’s all much of the same.
I’ll leave you with this quote from Harris on his journey:
“I think it’s made us realize how there’s heartache and there’s pain no matter which pathway you choose in life,” Harris said. “There’s no path that you can choose that can protect you from that.”
Jesus wept.
You can read what some people wrote that the author references here…
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2019/07/joshua-harris-marriage-ending/
Continued prayers for Shannon and Josh.
There was this little tidbit in the article, “Wife Shannon Harris is reportedly writing a play about her journey away from faith as well as the purity culture.“
If true, this sheds some light on what their differences may be that they can’t reconcile. It breaks my heart. How sad for the two of them not to mention how mom pulling away from the faith will affect the children.
Continued prayers! Absolutely breaks my heart!
From her Instagram, it does not appear that her musical is about her journey away from the faith. She says she still believes in God.
Rachel Held Evans died on June 1st, 2019.
Correction she died on May 4th, 2019
SGMarlton2007,
I still have friends that go to the Marlton, NJ church as sad as that may be! Why? Too comfortable and because “their friends go there”. Bad reason to stay in a cult-like church in SGM. I challenge them regularly when we get together or talk over the phone.
I’m glad that you left when you did. A friend that did recently leave said there remains serious issues in that church. Besides people who have been there for decades that continue to leave the church, I was told that the pastor’s son and worship leader was put under church discipline for some very serious unrepentant sins. I wouldn’t doubt that there are some ties to the “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” crap that went on throughout SGM. This type of sin happens everywhere and each individual adult is responsible for their own sins. So I won’t blame their pastor parents. But, the “IKDG”, I am sure, played a part in it. Additionally, I did hear that it was handled biblically, so that was good.
Additionally, I have been told that there is a link, not good, between Jason Reyes and the “Hush Fund” fiasco that Brent wrote about in his documents created by those stellar leaders, Dave Harvey, Tommy Hill, Mark Prater and John Loftness! If that story is true (which I am told the parents of the impacted child is willing to confirm it was to anyone who has asked), and the church members were not made aware of what occurred, and protective measures were not heavily put in to place to protect the children in the church, then there are some serious questions to be asked of the leadership team there. The biggest issue I have is that SGM leaders again, cared more about shutting up the sin versus addressing it and exposing it so that other believers could see the consequences of their actions. Instead, SGM paid “Hush” money to have the problem walk away … The Sov Grace Marlton church inherited the issue … and I am certain, nobody but the pastoral team was aware as to what went on. Good soldiers … all of them.
Lastly, I am told, attendance and giving is significantly down in Marlton. I wouldn’t be surprised if they will have to close their doors one day as they have a huge church that they still owe millions on. I personally blame this all on the fact that they continue to remain in a unrepentant “ministry” that loves CJ Mahaney more than they do Jesus.
Walking Wounded,
Thanks!! That’s wonderful to hear! It’s been heavy on my heart all morning.
Thanks for sharing!
I’m sure ya’ll can google for yourselves, but this is Josh’s business that Sad is referring to…
https://joshharris.com/
Bless Josh and Shannon’s hearts, they both seem to be trying to “find themselves” like young twenty-somethings fresh out of college. I guess all that was stunted and by-passed when they were actually twenty-something’s. Josh’s dad and then C.J. told Josh what to think and do.
Even Christian parents with the best intentions have to be so very careful when navigating those years with their young adult children. I can’t even imagine the controlling, oppressive environment that Josh was in.
I went on to Joshharris.com. Here is something that he states on his home page:
“…Then I shook up my life in a big way: I stepped away from leading a large church and moved to Vancouver, B.C., to attend graduate school. I studied a mind-expanding mixture of art, religion, history, culture, documentary film-making, and content marketing. Now I run my own marketing and brand strategy company, Clear & Loud, and use the power of story to help businesses connect with customers.
If you’re a business owner or leader struggling to get your message across, let’s talk.”
Why in the world would I hire him?? He can’t even get his own message across with everything that took place in SGM!
Good luck to him, but I’m pretty sure this isn’t going to work out for him.
Somewhere..Josh has always had expertise in business as well as marketing and branding. I think this is an honest effort to avoid all the hazards of Christian ministry and, I think he will be successful. Anyway, we all want him to do well and, be able to support his kids, don’t we?
So, regarding my question which Brent has not yet answered. Maybe he signed off and didn’t see it, but since he did go back and forth several times following 5Years’s comments, and he didn’t announce that he had had enough, I would be surprised to find out he didn’t at least peek back to see what the responses were to his last post.
By the way, I wasn’t asking for a “missive” in response to my question (LOL 5years), just a simple answer. And I was not looking for a gotcha, just clarity. If he had said I don’t think my teachings had anything to do with leadership/authority abuses, I would have just said okay, that clears that up.
But a non-response is a response, too. If Brent saw the question and chose not to answer it, then I guess we have our answer – he would not change any of the teachings that were at the foundation of PDI/SGM, and maybe he is afraid of the ensuing comments/misunderstandings that may follow if he does say that. I say that because if he did agree that some of his old teachings/positions were a problem, I think he would say so very quickly to erase all misunderstanding, as he clearly and understandably does not like being misunderstood.
And I get that he doesn’t want to be lumped in with CJ and others. They all turned their backs on him, they did things that demonstrate moral weakness, so how can he be like them? But if you still espouse the same basic foundational teachings as they do, you are still in at least that same particular category with them. And if you don’t regret standing by your teachings to this day, and you think those teachings do not inherently lead to authority abuses, then fine – that’s your position, and you get to have that position.
Or…maybe Brent left for vacation as of yesterday afternoon and didn’t bring his laptop. If so, I hope he comes back at some point in the near future with a simple reply.
I’m with Persona on Josh. And frankly, SGM/CLC were all about marketing – oops, did I say marketing? I meant marketing. Ken Maresco, as I recall, when he was first hired was hailed as being a marketing major. Hence the notebooks for evangelism with outreach strategies for reaching the lost. It wasn’t a bad idea in principle, but then it became all about the strategies, followed by the numbers..
Yeah, I myself am waiting for Brent to answer a simple question I asked him via email. It’s a simple yes-or-no question…
And if I remember correctly the history of Gregg Harris, his dad, he was the homeschool guru on teaching Christians how to start/run their own businesses. I’m sure Josh was schooled from a young age.