Josh Harris & Shannon Bonne Harris Separate
July 19, 2019 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
I’ve gotten a few emails asking for my thoughts about this new development…as well as quite a few from folks who’ve been wondering where we’ve been in general over the past few years. I guess this is as good a time as any to step back into things.
But let’s get a few items out of the way first. Here’s what you won’t find in this post: 1) any sort of information about the Harrises that you haven’t already heard elsewhere; 2) any sort of stick-it-to-ya glee that the courtship guru’s rigid formulas (which caused great harm to many) didn’t actually work out so well for the guru himself; and 3) any sort of cluck-clucking over the supposed evils of patriarchy or complementarianism or a serious approach to Scripture.
So, now that we’re all clear, here goes.
My heart aches for Josh, Shannon, and their kids.
We should pray for them. Pray that they would be renewed and strengthened in their faith. That they would look to Jesus rather than the world. That they would be able to separate the truths about God and the Bible from the lies of the cult that engulfed them and elevated Josh when he probably wasn’t ready for that sort of thing. That the Holy Spirit would draw both of them closer to the Lord. That they would be protected from the fiery darts of the evil one, who goes around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
Pray that their marriage could be saved. That whatever drew them together in the first place would come back to life. That they won’t actually divorce.
God hates divorce.
And God’s opinion is the only one that matters.
I don’t really want to make this post–the first in such a long time–about me, but for those of you who have asked, I need to share my heart. There’s a reason I haven’t posted here much.
You see, a few years ago, maybe five or six years ago, I found myself growing frustrated with what I was seeing, both on this site and on other “watchblogger” sites. It seemed to me like more and more of the people who figured out the truth about their Sovereign Grace churches didn’t just reject the Sovereign Grace craziness. Instead, they felt the need to reject Bible-based Christianity in a much broader, more profound way.
And this filled me with fear.
Someday very soon, we all are going to stand in front of the God of the universe, the perfectly holy, perfectly righteous God as He is portrayed in scripture. If we have not accepted what He did for us through the atoning work of Christ on the cross, if we have not repented of our sins (as sin is defined in the Bible) and accepted this great gift of salvation, then that day in front of the Lord is going to be extremely frightening, a day of pain and regret and weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It’s not going to matter if we found ourselves, lived our dreams, did what made us happy on earth. It’s not going to matter if we were the wokest woke person who ever woked.
On that day, the ONLY thing that will matter is whether we are right with God. And if you somehow have ended up rejecting the Jesus of scripture when you rejected your Sovereign Grace church, then you are in deep trouble.
Don’t let disillusionment with a particular church system lead you to turn away from Christ. He is all that matters, and His work on your behalf is the only thing that will stand between you and eternity in hell. No matter what our pagan culture may be telling us, God is still God, sin is still sin, and we all need a Savior.
Go back to the Bible. Read the scriptures. Let the Holy Spirit illuminate them. Allow yourself to be convicted and transformed by God’s Word.
Love and blessings,
Kris
© 2019, Kris. All rights reserved.
Thank you for the welcome.
I’ve spoken to a number of (older) CLCers. Most learned this news from their adult children, who came of age with IKDG. Parents… please take a moment to reflect on what we are communicating when we send you this update… you were the ones who introduced IKDG to us.
I Like “Out There” responce, about Brent responce or the lack there of….. About answering the “question”
I’ve been so sad about the Harrises’ separation ever since their announcement, even though it wasn’t unexpected (given a recent IG post of Shannon’s stating “My family is changing” and the fact that for months they would both post about different activities simultaneously, meaning that they weren’t attending events together). Comments from Josh’s son and one of his brothers on his IG post seem to state fairly clearly that he has left Christianity. Let’s continue to pray for them all.
These SGC matters can be reasonably summed up with two words: Authority & Accountability. Both were apparently misused by most, if not all top CLC/SGM leadership for ‘durations’. Present misuse durability is another matter. If given the time by his ‘detractors’, Josh may very well be more forthcoming as he ‘secures’ his future footing. Lord Jesus has absolutely no intention of failing him. Jesus’ cords were not made for him, I can assure you, if you catch my drift…
So, so sad, Lisa. I am praying for the children and will be praying especially for the son.
Lisa- do you have a link that backs up this statement? “Comments from Josh’s son and one of his brothers on his IG post seem to state fairly clearly that he has left Christianity.”
I read the Sojo interview and I don’t think he said that. I think people maybe misinterpreted what he is going through with rethinking many things- but not essential Christianity. But I didn’t see what his son and brother wrote, so can you post a link or exact quote? Thank You.
Out There- Brent read it. We all know he read it. You cut through the debatable subjects to the core of the onion. He has cut and run in the past. Maybe he is working on a long article about why the shepherding top down authority doctrine in SGM was right and good, and not legalistic or controlling. Could go either way. If he was going to apologize we’d have gotten it by now I think. Hoping for a response but not expecting it.
Regarding comments about Josh and business, at least he is trying to earn a living. That is a righteous thing to do. If a man does not provide for his family he is worse than an infidel, says the bible. When the docs broke in 2011 ( do I have the year right?) I was in a church not too far from an SGM church where my pastor had some contacts, and lots of homeschool families knew SGM homeschoolers. Plus we had friends in the PCA (Lingon Duncan of T4G is PCA) and the SGM mess was a big topic for a while.
Every single godly man we knew expected a certain somebody to get a job and said he needed to get a job. My husband said that from his business experience, within a couple years BD would be promoted to management given his brains and organizational skills, even if he started at entry level pay. Nobody- nobody! could quite believe the ongoing saga of writing the long online missives and begging for money as time went by.
All that to say that Josh is getting a job. A job, as in obeying the scripture to provide for his family. He could probably have started some kooky para church ministry and gotten lots of support from young folks, but he chose to go to school and start a business. That is honorable.
A doctrinal digression….one great event of the Reformation was the rescue of all secular work to God’s glory. The corrupt Roman Catholic church had a secular-spiritual division that put some religious occupations on a higher and more holy level. The Reformation, and Calvin at first in particular, boldly proclaimed that all work was God’s work and holy unto him. The farmer, the carpenter, the mother, the clergy- it is all the one body working for the Lord and it is all to His glory. The street sweeper is no lower in the kingdom than the minister.
SGM, among their many Roman Catholic tendencies, made clergy a higher and better calling. “Ministry” was superior. Secular members were lower than full time leaders. Over under, higher lower. Not the many membered body where the car mechanic or the nurse goes into the Holy of Holies to meet with God and hear from the Holy Spirit exactly the same as the pastor. Nope. Secular work is just not on the same level. Is it any wonder somebody we know was unable to get a job? Whatever faults Harris has, he got this thing right.
5 Years in PDI:
You hit nail right on the head, with the issues of Leadership versus laity, but we know as Protestants, we think, we have departed from the Catholic church, but in some ways were still very Catholic.
Preach it, 5years!!! ;-)
Apparently, Brent spent twenty-five years serving the wrong ‘master’. It has left him somewhat impoverished and spiritually destitute. Pray for him.
5yearsinPDI says:
July 22, 2019 at 12:05 am
No, we are not talking, lol, as if for one split second I think you would accurately repeat a conversation. I don’t trust you, and anything that you want to say you can say right here.
_____
You have sinned against me innumerable times over the years. Therefore, I have repeatedly asked to talk with you in obedience to Scripture (Matt 18, etc.). You too have a responsibility to pursue me knowing I have offenses against you (Matt 5, etc.).
I’ve asked Kris and Somewhere to participate. I’ve said I would keep confidential. They would be a control on both accuracy and confidentiality but you simply don’t want to obey the clear teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Instead you continue to sinfully judge and slander.
Somewhereintime says:
July 22, 2019 at 7:07 am
5years ….
I’m guessing that if you are unwilling to have a discussion with Brent you are then going to stop the “I hate Brent” posts?
____
Her “I hate Brent” posts continue with Kris’ full support.
Kris says:
July 22, 2019 at 11:09 am
OK, I’m going to call a halt to the back-and-forth between 5Years and Brent. This has happened before, and these comments – especially Brent’s LENGTHY, overkill responses – are not really productive.
The calls for “reconciliation” between them are also weird. … As far as I can tell, 5Years has no personal issues with Brent. … There’s nothing to “reconcile” there.
____
Kris, you have violated your word by allowing 5yearsinPDI to continue her attacks on me.
And you are partial. You are not neutral or objective. “Reconciliation…weird.” “No personal issues.” “Nothing….there.”
I apologize for the profanity, but re: the Instagram post, in response to a commenter questioning Josh’s convictions, Josh’s son responded “my man shut the f— up lol”; in response to people asking what the Bible or God have to say about divorce, Josh’s son wrote “pretty sure he stopped caring about what the bible said a while back, he’s moved on” and “pre sure Josh isn’t out here caring about the church anymore lol” and “I don’t think god is his main priority lol” and “i doubt he cares about what god appreciates lol”; in response to a commenter asking why Christ wasn’t mentioned in the IG post, he wrote “lol because he left it behind my man, he got out”. His brother wrote in response to Christians questioning the separation, “This is the next chapter of their lives and I’m not going to be hesitant in telling people that are blowing hot air to shut the hell up.” There’s probably more but there are 2000+ comments on that post now so it’s a lot to scroll through. I don’t know this family personally, and who knows, maybe they were all hacked, but since this is what’s posted I’m just going to pray for them. Truly awful to experience this publicly.
Kris says:
July 22, 2019 at 2:37 pm
I should add – there’s no “libel” here. Please! This is one person’s (5Years’) assessment of what Brent himself has said and done over the course of his very public ministry.
____
Libel is “a published false statement that is damaging to a person’s reputation; a written defamation.” 5years is not about a fair, objective, documented, “assessment” of what I’ve said and done. She is about libel – written false statements intended to defame. Libel is slander in print.
And why must you ridicule with “Please!”?
5yearsinPDI says:
July 23, 2019 at 9:34 am
You know what frustrates me the most about this subject? All the pastors and counselors we’ve known who don’t like SGM and saw the legalism and control, but won’t read Detwiler because they say he is insane or psycho or words like that..
____
I first learned in January that SGM pastors were telling people who reading my materials that I was “insane or psycho or words like that.” It was part of their ongoing strategy to discredit. It appears some national leaders are doing the same.
When I sent out The Documents on July 7, 2011, SGM and national leaders like Al Mohler and Ligon Duncan accused me of being a gossip and slanderer. Now, I am nuts.
This is unsurprising. In recent months I’ve had to expose Al Mohler again for his past silence and people like Tedd Tripp, Tom Chantry/ARBCA, John MacArthur, et al. for their crimes, etc. See BremtDetwiler.com.
5yearsinPDI says:
July 23, 2019 at 9:34 am
In the same way, you can say you resigned, but looking at what you said, you were thrust into an environment where CJ is hostile and the A team is labeling you as proud and theologically lazy (lack of study). I mean how on earth were you not forced to resign? …
You resigned, but at the same time you were being forced out. That is how SGM forced people out- accusations of pride, and hostility for not toeing the line.
____
You are correct when you say “CJ is hostile and the A team is labeling you as proud and theologically lazy (lack of study)” regarding my view of apostles. But I was not “kicked off” or “thrown out” of SGM as you emphatically stated for my view of apostles or for not being able to sign off on the Membership Agreement in 2006.”
On the other hand, everyone now knows C.J. was hostile toward me from August 20, 2004 forward. That is when I led the crisis intervention to address him with Dave Harvey, Steve Shank, Pat Ennis, Joshua Harris, Grant Laymen, Bob Kauflin, and Kenneth Maresco. I hung in there for five years hoping to bring about change and help C.J. but I finally had to leave in August 2009.
5yearsinPDI says:
July 22, 2019 at 3:38 pm
I look back and the whole way that organization operated was thick with leaders accusing hearts and motives if you didn’t toe the line. But that was OK for them to judge hearts and motives, it wasn’t sin or libel…because they had this anointing to see other people’s sin.
____
This is exactly what you have done for years. You have accused my heart and motives countless time and when I “didn’t toe the line” you just doubled down on your sinful judgments.
Oh come on, Brent – do you REALLY mean to keep playing the sinned-against victim here?
Also, when are you going to answer my straightforward yes-or-no question emailed to you yesterday?
Thanks!
Brent- There is a lot I could say but I don’t want to dialogue further until you answer this question. Hope my block quoting works.
Lisa- Thank you very much! That’s horrible!
5yearsinPDI says:
July 23, 2019 at 9:34 am
I better stop here. I wish you would go back and read Systematic Theologies on the Sovereignty of God and see that God was doing this and God was behind it? Why? First, to open your eyes to the structure you helped create that damaged a great many sheep. You had to suffer what you made them suffer. I am sure there are other reasons but that is between you and God. It wasn’t CJ or Jeff or Harvey, it was God. God did it for a reason, and he is still after you.
____
“I better stop here.” But of course, you don’t stop and Kris allows you to continue.
You condescending talk about “leaders accusing hearts and motives” while you say I “had to suffer what [I] made them suffer.” In others word, what I have suffered and the hardship I’ve experienced are due to the judgment of God not because I have faithfully confronted evil doers for righteousness sake. (Matt 5:10-12).
Brent- Man up and answer the two questions Out There posted. No more even brief back and forth until you do.
5yearsinPDI says:
July 23, 2019 at 3:47 pm
Brent- While I feel no need to defend myself to you, and think you will remain psychologically disturbed until you recognize that you were not just a victim but a perpetrator (I don’t mean sexual, I mean the authoritarian, man in the place of God crap) …
Look, I am sure you’ve had pain, but until you see yourself as an apostle who created pain and as a perpetrator of sin against the flock, you’ll be stuck in this rut. …
Sorry Kris :)
____
And here is another of your judgments. I am “psychologically disturbed.” I beg to differ. I think that is what any psychologist would say about your obsessive preoccupation with me.
And I think it is evident you are the one who is “a perpetrator” of “the authoritarian, man in the place of God crap” though I would not phrase it that way.
Brent:
It’s like looking through a one-way glass mirror, you see into the other room, (your perspective) but you don’t see your own reflection ( others perspectives and what they’re trying to tell you)
Just trying to help.
5yearsinPDI says:
July 24, 2019 at 9:40 am
Out There- he’s either working on a major missive or has cut and run (again). But you brought the core of the subject front and center so I’m hoping to see a response.
____
This is another of your sinful judgments. I have never “cut and run (again)”. Please cite one example. I have let hundreds of sinful statements go unaddressed but I have never let any subject go unaddressed.
Lisa, thanks for that follow-up. I tried to find the comments, last night but hard to locate in over 2k comments. Those comments just make me sad.
5yearsinPDI says:
July 24, 2019 at 7:26 pm
Every single godly man we knew expected a certain somebody to get a job and said he needed to get a job. My husband said that from his business experience, within a couple years BD would be promoted to management given his brains and organizational skills, even if he started at entry level pay. Nobody- nobody! could quite believe the ongoing saga of writing the long online missives and begging for money as time went by.
____
“Begging for money as time went by.” I’ve never begged for money. That is another sinful caricature. I have asked for donations. But of course, you condemn me for this as though wrong.
I have been an investigative reporter, an advocate for victims, a counselor and confidante to scores of victims and their families. I’ve also worked with law enforcement on multiple cases, provided vital information to the national press, and provided evidence to leaders across the nation. All free of charge.
Let me illustrate. I worked behind the scenes with Washingtonian magazine for nine months in producing the article, “The Sex-Abuse Scandal That Devasted a Suburban Megachurch – Inside the Rise and Fall of Sovereign Grace Ministries.” The author, Tiffany Stanley first contacted me. I provided her tons of evidence, introduced her to victims, and provided her a history, sources, articles, and photos. That is why the article was so well sourced. I’m sure she was well paid for her work. I received two complimentary issues of the magazine. LOL. I’ve also helped other minor and major news outlets in similar articles. I’ve never asked for remuneration or been paid for my work though in one case, the author send me a personal check for $330 out of appreciation for all my assistance.
“Begging for money.” If you did your research you would know I stopped asking for donations approximately 18 months ago because it was being said I exploited victims of abuse in order to get rich. Only last week did I resume asking for donations at the of my article.
Brent,
I’ve decided to put you in temporary moderation until you answer the following question, so succinctly put to you by OutThere and repeated a few times by others:
Additionally, please respond to my email of yesterday, with a simple one-word, yes-or-no answer to the question I asked you.
Until then, I’m not publishing any more of your comments.
Thanks!
There’s something terribly disturbing about such an inability to concede even the most obvious point…even as the person is relentless about hammering away on anyone he sees as being in the wrong.
I’d call it SGM Leader Derangement Syndrome. SLDS for short.
Like dude. You were one of SGM’s leaders, one of the “Apostles.” You had a hand in creating and sustaining decades of SGM’s policies, practices, and teachings. Just acknowledge this and move on. No one is gonna sue you or even try to hold you accountable for those mistakes! If you just expressed a little regret, just owned a little of your part in things, it’d make everything else you publish so much more powerful.
(And no, it’s not taking ownership, to recite a big old laundry list of all the ways you actually weren’t responsible for SGM…or even a list of all the people with whom you eventually reconciled.)
Embracing an open, free acknowledgement of one’s own faults and shortcomings (and stepping off one’s self-righteous soapbox for a minute or two) actually makes one’s other fault-finding missions a whole lot more palatable.
Also, a disclaimer: I am NOT saying there’s a need to take responsibility for hiding sex offenders or any of the stuff that finally grabbed the larger public’s attention. Just acknowledge that SGM was a sick system and you had a hand in creating and sustaining it and enabling people like CJ (even if yes, you eventually did turn on CJ and tried to make him accountable). That’s it.
But. SLDS.
Come on Brent:
Kris is making it as easy for you as humanly as possible, step up to the plate and just say “yes” to your part in SGM, CLC core foundational system of your beliefs……for you are the founding Apostle.
End of story, please take accountability.
Then we will be able to seperate “you” from them ( cj and company).
Kris,
I’m one of your biggest fans and appreciate that you and Guy host this site. It’s been a place of healing and a place to vent decades of frustration that I’ve personally been through. I am sure there may have even been times when I’ve written something that you’ve wanted to push the “silence” button on me. Kindly, you have not done so and I appreciate that.
That said, I’m uncomfortable with how you are handling this issue with Brent. Yes, this is your blog. And you have the freedom to do whatever you’d like. But why are you forcing him to answer ANY question, let alone 5Years questions and your “yes or no” question?
Listen, if Brent still believes that his theology of what he/they taught at SGM is still correct to this day, that’s fine. I disagree with it (as I would suspect many of us would). However, I think it’s his prerogative to choose whether or not to respond to any question asked of him. Brent and I had our own private conversations about the whole discussion on the viability and biblical implementation of apostles in modern day Christianity (small “a”, not big “a”). I think we left that discussion not agreeing with one another, but we continued our discussions and conversations forward. That’s fine. Even then, we weren’t forcing each other to have to provide an explanation to what we believe or what we might not want to state on a blog.
Can he? Sure? Would I? Most likely. But I wouldn’t want to be forced to have to do so to be able to continue to participate on a blog as a means to continue interacting with everyone.
Quite honestly, if would have thought that you possibly would have confronted 5years for not wanting to reconcile with Brent, but she being allowed to continue to rant about his leadership and teachings … for years! When presented with the opportunity to actually take a biblical approach to addressing the issue with him, she said “no”!
Should 5years now be banned from posting until she do so?
I don’t think she should. That’s her prerogative. Why is Brent any different from 5 years for not answer all of your questions?
Please reconsider your stance. I had decades of double standards thrown at me while in SGM. What’s good for the goose better be good for the gander.
Respectfully,
Somewhereintime
Somewhere,
Thank you for your feedback.
I understand how this must seem.
I don’t feel at liberty to explain where I’m coming from right now, but there are things going on that greatly color how I’m responding to Brent.
He knows exactly what the issues are.
Somewhere-
This is an old link to 2009. I am posting it in hope of helping you understand why I am responding to BD the way I am.
https://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2009/01/12/an-open-letter-to-ken-sande-at-peacemaker-ministries/
Kris wrote:
“I am further confused about how the phone conversation you’re requesting leaves less room for misunderstandings than does written communication, where every word exchanged is recorded. That really makes no sense. With a phone conversation, there is always room for memories to fail, or for words to be transposed or even changed in future re-tellings, so that meanings can be altered and confusion results. In these respects, the written word is a much more reliable and trustworthy form of communication than the (non-recorded) spoken word.
Most importantly, I am not interested in ANY process that cannot be entered into on a completely open and public basis, with communications made available for all to see. I believe this level of accountability to the interested public is absolutely crucial in any serious attempt to address SGM’s aberrant practices. Your request for all our communications to be private is perhaps the most troubling aspect of this whole thing. I am very bothered by what seems to be an effort on your part (or on behalf of SGM?) to reduce what has been a broad and public discussion of SGM’s organization-wide problems into specific private “grievances” between specific individuals that then must be handled privately, behind closed doors.”
That second paragraph sums up how I think about private communication with Brent. And please don’t think I see myself on the level of somebody with the stature of Sande- I don’t.
I have NEVER wanted to defame BD or libel him or do him harm. What I have wanted is to be able to use some of his materials with people who look at him as completely unrepentant about his own faults in perpetuating a screwed up system. I have wished so many times that he would admit to his part in the legalistic, controlling, recycled 70’s shepherding system that became SGM.
I have imagined what the effect would be on the Reformed Big Dogs if he wrote an expose of SGM shepherding and how the As viewed things and how they looked at sheep and how they wanted to control people, and freely admitted his own part. I wanted him to do what Bob Mumford did. What I wanted was the stranglehold SGM had on the Gospel Coalition/T4G/CCEF to be broken. (To a great extent that has happened, thank God!! without Brent admitting to his own sins). I am a Calvinist, I go to a Calvinist church, and I HATED with all my gut hatred to see people blind to what SGM was and is, yet at the same time refusing to read Brent because he came off as one person said, like a snappy little doggie that sinks its teeth into your pant legs and you can’t kick him off, and he is so relentless about others without apologizing for his own mistakes.
Can anybody live decades as a Christian and not make many mistakes in doctrine and practice that have to be apologized for? God knows I’ve apologized to my kids dozens of times, and to many other people, who often don’t even remember what I am talking about and are sorry I felt guilty about something they see as small in the past.
I may have been frustrated or annoyed, I may have not communicated well, and I may have been trying to do something God wasn’t behind me doing. I may have phrased things badly and made assumptions along the way. But the word libel means malicious intent, and that was never my intent. And for anybody, whether you or Brent, to claim I had malicious intent is false accusation.
I hope the quote above from Kris helps. This isn’t personal to me, it is about the broader doctrines and practices of SGM, and I think that is what needs to be addressed, ie, the two questions Out There asked so well.
OK, 5Years, if you would, please stop talking about Brent. Your comments will also have to be moderated if you won’t stop.
And Brent – if you’re still here reading – take charge of your own narrative.
Brent,
Kris has given you the opportunity to “control your narrative.” Few would be so gracious. Many would instead disseminate the information she has with little regard for how it would impact you.
Take this opportunity. Be humble.
No, Kris hasn’t shared the information with me but I, too, have seen it.
C.J.Mahaney has apparently taken many individuals for a proverbial 30+ year 501c3 religious ride both inside and outside the wave riding religious organization he help found. Brent Detweiler is simply one more sad example. Look at Dave Harvey. He is still trying to figure what hit him. Even SBTS Albert Mohler is just beginning to see the ‘big picture’. Bob Kauflin has been suffering depression for years (his words). “Build it and they will come” has a whole new meaning. The mis-use of scripture has had a profoundly devastating effect upon these GOB/CLC/POD/PDI/SGM/SGC individuals, self-admitting or not.
Sopy said, “The mis-use of scripture has had a profoundly devastating effect upon these GOB/CLC/POD/PDI/SGM/SGC individuals, self-admitting or not.”
Or to put in other words (which I’m sure I heard as a child), “The word of God without the spirit of God (aka LOVE- parantheticals mine), is no longer the word of God.”
When a leader is truly lead by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, they are still prone to error. The Bible does clearly state the role of leaders within the church. However, they MUST be men led by the Spirit and meet the qualifications laid out in the Word. Most importantly, all leading must be done with the goal of honoring Christ first. It must be done in LOVE. Leading the church should NOT be done a) To protect reputation. b) to protect leaders c) to take the easy route when difficulties exist d) without trembling and fear knowing that leaders will have to directly answer to the Lord for their decisions. This is NOT to be taken lightly. Jesus, above all and before all!
We as born-again believers have the Holy Spirit and He will speak to us individually on a daily basis if we listen to Him. We do NOT need an intermediate between us and God.
SGM Leadership miserably failed in their attempts to “lead” the church. Instead, they RULED the church. The imposed LEGALISM on to the church. They led with CJ first in mind, not Jesus. The were led by people with business/management skill, not men filled and led by the Holy Spirit. They were led by evil men that molested girls (John Loftness anyone?) or protected pedophiles (CJ Mahaney, Josh Harris, Dave Harvey, Mark Prater, etc.).
SGM authoritarian rule was not, and is not biblically based. It was man-made. It was man-led.
Contracts? Where is that in the bible? Book of Order? Where is that in the bible? Leaders telling men how to run their daily lives? Where is that in the bible?
SGM took on the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the people in the church … and they continue to do so to this day. It’s a men-led initiative … and it is failing miserably.
Somewhereintime. Excellent points, all true. I see this as the major mistake\failing of the sheperding movement. No matter how weak a new believer may seem, the Holy Spirit is ready and able to assist. Pointing them in that direction is the leaders priviledge. And the saddest thing is when sgm leaders took the place of the Holy Spirit in people’s lives the damage caused many to lose faith or heart .
Blind leading the blind? In examining the history of the SGM organization, we find the mis-use of authority coupled with a mis-use (and mis-application) of accountability, with an improper understanding and abuse of the scriptures then coupled with the introduction of the dangers of hyper-Calvinism. The Rub. They (SGM) leadership assumed the authority of Jesus’ present day apostles with no credibility and absolutely no accountability. That spells ‘cult’ in any sense of the word. They then used their ‘authority’ to demanded ‘accountability’; while they provided none themselves. SGC members and supporters had apparently become by that time, become comfortably numb.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QjHA8UQXB5E
Great injury occurred. Many victims have come forward to tell the tale…Caution is advised. ;~)§
Hi Stunned,
Hope you’re doing well. :-)
I love what you shared…
“Or to put in other words (which I’m sure I heard as a child), ‘The word of God without the spirit of God (aka LOVE- parantheticals mine), is no longer the word of God.’”
Without love, it really ISN’T the word of God. A parent corrects and disciplines, but still loves their child. When discipline is implemented correctly, painful as the consequences may be, the child still feels loved and secure. It’s sad when a legalistic individual who is literally OBSESSED with the word of God and concerned with following it to the letter of the law (both for himself AND everyone else) misses the mark completely because they fail to see the significance of love.
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The Way of Love
13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Forget the Holy Spirit? …individuals were ‘literally’ OBSESSED with the word(s) of C.J. to their abject detriment. Idolatry was their cup of tea? The pain this Ichabod syndrome caused, is apparently not receding… [1]
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[1]The departing of the glory of the Lord. Where is the glory of the Lord?”, the answer, of course, being, “It is nowhere”.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_FrOQC-zEog
I mentioned on FB and will share here, that Josh and Shannon may be the most well known marriage to fail as a result of SGM and the fallout still being dealt with, but let’s not forget about the many couples we all know who saw their marriages end after the SGM scandal.
Some will say that was not related to SGM, but I believe there was a connection. When you are taught to put as much stock in leaders as you were with SGM and then those leaders turn out to be not who you thought they were, and in some cases, your own local pastors fail in the way that they respond to the SGM crisis, people begin questioning everything the believe, including their marriage.
Harris confirms he is no longer a Christian: https://www.instagram.com/p/B0ZBrNLH2sl/?utm_source=ig_web_options_share_sheet
JW…that’s so sad.
I didn’t go to CLC, but I was at a meeting that probably was at Celebration, when Josh was brand new I think, and he said from the pulpit that his goal in life was to a be a clone of CJ. His word- clone.
When your hero turns out to have feet worse than clay, and your goal was not to be like Jesus, but to be like CJ, I guess a whole lot of soul shattering happens. Its so tragic.
When I met the Lord, I met the Lord. No matter what winds of doctrine have come and gone, the very real presence of Jesus Christ, and loving the bible, was always there. I can’t imagine that faith ever being lost because the Lord is so real to me.
Whew. Really hard to watch this. Makes me want to cry.
OutThere says:
July 23, 2019 at 4:46 pm
How about a straight forward question for Brent, that actually address the heart of all this back and forth:
Brent, do you think there are things about the original SGM (PDI) structure, things that you had a hand in establishing and continuing, that you now agree allowed for the leadership abuse?
If no, okay, we can stop right there. There are differences of opinion that will not be settled here.
If yes, are you now sorry about your contribution?
That’s all, and we can end this. No need for specifics, as (in my opinion) we are drowning and choking on specifics right now.
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I’ve answered this question several times on SGMSurvivors over the years. I believe our doctrine, polity (structure) and practice (for the most part) were sound. There were some legalistic elements but we always tried to carefully differentiate between biblical commands and how those commands were applied. This is something I have acknowledged and written about in “What About My Own Sins” (Dec. 31, 2011). But the problem was never a “sick system.” Nor was it our doctrinal understanding of pastoral ministry or apostolic ministry. Read “Exercising Oversight but Not Lording It Over” (Jan. 25, 2013).
The problem is always the human heart. That is what I said from the beginning in my first document, “Response Regarding Friendship & Doctrine” (March 17, 2010). Here are a few excerpts.
“C.J., I have a great love for you. I sought to demonstrate it over the years. That love was most poignantly expressed on August 20, 2004. I knew the outcome of that meeting could (not would) have terrible consequences for me. I went into the meeting with fear and trembling. I also went into the meeting with hope and faith. I knew the result could be greater fruitfulness for you and greater glory for God. Afterward I told Dave [Harvey] it was the most loving and sacrificial thing I’d ever done. He understood my meaning in context. It was not a boast.”
“Most importantly, I write because of my deep love for you and for Sovereign Grace Ministries. My greatest concern is for the increasing presence of deceit and hypocrisy rooted in self-preservation and the love of reputation. I’d be overjoyed to see you acknowledge these things to the movement, whether or not you ask my forgiveness for anything specific. Comparatively speaking, the latter is unimportant.”
“Primarily, I hope and desire to see a restoration of integrity, truth telling and justice in Sovereign Grace so there is no lying, spin, manipulation, lording, cover-up, or partiality. I am concerned for the movement. Some men have followed sinful aspects of your example and leadership – the kind referenced in this response. These men have acted deceitfully, judgmentally, unbiblically, and hypocritically. Their example in turn, has harmed others and been corrosive in its effect.”
It was the growing lack of obedience to our doctrine, polity and practice that ruined CLC and SGM. For example, C.J. Mahaney should have been put on probation or removed from ministry in 2004 for his pride, deceit, lording, hypocrisy, and independence. These were in conflict with everything he/we taught. The doctrine was sound, the living unsound in some serious cases. For instance, we taught Romans 13:1-5 well but for 35 years C.J., Joshua and men of their staffs covered up the sexual of children. We are instructed to report “evildoers” (sex perverts) to law enforcement. Why didn’t this happen? Mostly, the fear of lawsuits, loss of members, loss of money and reputational harm.
Am I sorry about my contribution? Not my doctrine. Not the polity I developed over 25 years (though I’m sure there are things we could have done better). And not my practice (the application of doctrine) for the most part. Nor the apostolic and pastoral care I supplied to thousands of people. I did not abuse them. I genuinely loved them, served them and sought to build them up in their most holy faith to the best of my ability. That doesn’t mean I never erred as a pastor or apostle but I am not the tyrant portrayed on this website by too many people. I really cared for God’s flock and sought to “lay my life down” for them.
I am sorry I did not confront sin issues more firmly and courageously when they came up with C.J., et al. I also regret the over honoring of leaders. That was wrong. At times, it bordered on idolatry. Yet, it is also commanded in Scripture. It is a matter of degree. And I regret occasions when I pointed out bitterness or resentment prematurely or unnecessarily when individuals were sharing their hearts. And those occasion when I over emphasized certain practices. I’ve written about and acknowledged all these sins before.
After I resigned from the apostolic team in 2007 the polity began to change. For example, salaries were covered up, Membership Covenants introduced, and ultimately the Book of Church Order imposed. It is a monstrosity that has no resemblance to the teaching and simplicity of the New Testament pattern for governance. But here’s the thing. Even the good aspects of the BCO are not applied. C.J. is still their esteemed leader. He is not above reproach but he continues to lead a church, be a featured speaker at their conferences, does a Sovereign Grace podcast, and provides direction to the men on the SG leadership team.
I loved Sovereign Grace Ministries, C.J. Mahaney, the hundreds of pastors who were friends, and the tremendous people throughout the churches. I never intended to send The Documents to the SGM pastors in July 2011 but it became necessary. It was an act of love not vengeance. How I wish there was a humble response rather than a deceitful and heavy handed response. And then the lawsuit with 11 plaintiffs in May 2013. Oh my! It broke my heart.
I weep over Sovereign Grace like Jesus wept over Jerusalem. I don’t view it as a “sick system.” I view it as a group of churches with leaders who have fallen away from their first love for Jesus Christ (Rev. 2:4).
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, it’s better that a millstone is hung around one’s neck and thrown in to the deepest sea, to offend one of thies these little ones, not just children in age, but Children of Faith , you can be 20 something, and still a child of faith.
There is going to be some serious accounting on Judgement Day, for those have been offended, because of the offenses of those in leadership, specifically ,Sovereign Grace Ministries types, from the early days to present.
The Longer they (SGM types) resist Godly, True repentance, and the Cry of the Holy Spirit.
The grater the condemnation to them.
May The Father have mercy!
Go4it Josh, Jesus knows where to find U. SKreeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch! :-) life’s been good so far. [snicker] …ATB Sòpy ;~)§
Hi everyone.
I’ve been following the recent posts about Josh and Shannon and wanted to say that many of the issues that likely contributed to their current situation are addressed in the book I’ve recently completed called The Uriah Syndrome: The Misuse and Abuse of Authority in the Church. You can preview the first chapter at http://www.bobdixonLPC.com and purchase the book on Amazon.
SGMSurvivors/Kris and Guy and SGMRefuge/Jim are acknowledged and thanked at the beginning of the book, Todd Wilhelm from the blog Thouarttheman wrote the forward, and chapter 11 is about Rachael Denhollander’s exemplary fight for truth, justice, and transparency regarding victims of sexual abuse, particularly in the church. The body of the book addresses many of the issues most of us have struggled with as a result of our experience with SGM.
Specifically, the book endeavors to unpack and explore the complexities of spiritual abuse … what happened, why it happened, and how to avoid it from happening again. Hopefully, the book helps those suffering from the trauma of spiritual abuse and provides a way forward. I hope you will check it out.
Thanks and God bless, Bob Dixon
Brent – Thank you. That was well said. I think I am clear on your position, and I believe what you say about your intentions and motives (I never doubted those, by the way). Even though you may have addressed all this elsewhere, I appreciate you taking the time to reply again. I would disagree with you about the doctrine/polity/practice being 100% sound, but I think you probably already figured that out.
5Years – Brent doesn’t agree that the doctrine/polity/practice was wrong, so it is pointless to keep calling him out for not “repenting” – he openly states he doesn’t think he is wrong on that point. It makes more sense to me for you to simply address the points that you think are wrong, and leave names out of it. In my opinion, these are debatable issues – and supporting them or not is not a sign of moral or character deficiency.