Which Jesus?
August 5, 2019 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Years and years ago (circa 2007, can you believe it’s been that long?), this site started as a place to post some of my personal musings about our experience in a Sovereign Grace Church. (If you’re wondering what our experience was like, you can click on the tab above that says, “Who We Are And How We Got Here.”)
This was way before the problems with Sovereign Grace Ministries were EVER discussed publicly anywhere on the internet (except for some random comments on an inactive blog I eventually ended up preserving here). I had no idea other people might have felt the same as we did. Certainly, I had no idea anyone had had far worse experiences they wanted to talk about.
But life has a way of happening. Things change. People grow and change. Guy and I have grown and changed.
Just like Josh Harris, we have evolved in our thinking. Just in a way that’s basically the polar opposite of how he’s changed.
If you’re someone who has had a bad experience in your Sovereign Grace Church…if you’re someone who has stumbled on this site because you’ve been reading about Josh Harris’ recent self-proclaimed apostasy…if you’re looking for information about the Sovereign Grace organization’s historical issues…you’ve still reached a safe place where you can share your story, ask questions, or post your thoughts. Feel free to look around. Click on the “Stories” tab above. Read the sermon transcripts and see for yourself what used to be taught within SG churches.
HOWEVER, I feel like i need to explain where we are coming from nowadays. I’ve gotten more than a few emails asking why certain comments didn’t get published. I owe the readers here an explanation.
I seem to do my best thinking while responding to comments. Today, someone posted a comment and I wrote a response, and my response really captures where my thinking is right now. It might also help people understand where we are coming from nowadays. So I’m going to repost it below.
Again, full disclosure, it’s long and more than a little bit rambling. But hey, it’s the best I’ve got right now. So here goes…
This was posted in response to a commenter who asked,
Do honest and authentic Christians still come here to share their rich faith in Jesus Christ, and to rejoice in his faithfulness?
The short answer to your question is, for me, a resounding “Yes.” I find a lot of encouragement in many of the comments.
A more nuanced answer to your question (“Do honest and authentic Christians still come here to share their rich faith in Jesus Christ, and to rejoice in his faithfulness?”) is, it depends on which Jesus you’re talking about.
See, I’ve been on my own faith journey of sorts over the past several years. I think all believers are, actually, if we’re honest. And my journey has taken me some interesting places. I grew up in a really sweet, wholesome, mindlessly fundamentalist small-town Christian culture, going to the same Bible-believing Evangelical church and attending Christian schools the whole time. Some of the mindlessness about Christianity was a product of the era. I know I sound like an old lady these days, but I’m constantly telling my kids, things have changed TREMENDOUSLY in the past 20 years or so. It used to be that if someone claimed the name of Christ, there were certain things you could assume about their priorities, their attitudes, their lifestyle. Nowadays, that has all changed.
But anyway, that’s how I was raised, and for a number of years into adulthood, Guy and I sort of floated along, attending a couple of what were becoming increasingly bland seeker-friendly megachurches. Their statements of faith were all kosher, the preaching didn’t raise any alarms. But both Guy and I were feeling frustrated in a sort of nameless, formless way.
Then, through a series of random events, we found ourselves attending a Sunday evening service at a charismatic church. I was very yielded and eager…and on that night, I had some sort of experience. For years, I have sought to figure out what that experience was. Was it God? Was it my own brain? Was it the product of my eagerness?
Anyway, after that experience, I was hooked. We left our bland megachurch with nary a backward glance. Guy and I rather quickly became ENGULFED in the charismatic church. Despite all my Christian education (one class shy of a minor in theology, decades of decent teaching) there were a LOT of theological things that I didn’t understand at the time, things about hermeneutics in particular. I also rather deliberately shut my mind off. This was encouraged.
For awhile, things were great. The pastor and his wife were viewed as inaccessible celebrities in the little world they’d created, yet somehow Guy and I were singled out for attention. We felt empowered by and optimistic about the name-it-and-claim-it teachings. I mean, yeah, my old doctrinal muscle memory would nag me sometimes about how unbalanced it was to use some random opening greeting from 3 John (“Beloved, I wish above all else that you be in good health and prosper”) as the foundation for basically everything we were taught about how it was always God’s will to heal people and bless them financially. But I silenced those voices, in large part because I’d always come back to my experiences in the church.
After a few years there, though, things seemed to get wackier. Pretty soon, I couldn’t quiet the nagging thoughts that kept bubbling to the surface. I started to do some serious reading and research. Even though I kept assigning my experiences a great deal of weight (like, because I had such a great experience, the teachings can’t be coming from a totally wrong place), I also started critically examining the name-it-and-claim-it stuff.
It was this questioning that eventually led us to leave our charismatic church and find Sovereign Grace. We were drawn in by SG’s purported commitments to charismaticism and “sound doctrine.”
Anyway, warning, seemingly random segue here, but I promise it will come back around…
Mormonism has actually been an interest of mine for years. I educated myself on this religion when I first encountered some friends who seemed so Christian in their behavior but were actually LDS. I had to know how their beliefs differed from my own. I ended up learning so much about Mormonism. (It’s hilarious, when the Mormon missionaries roll up to our doorstep on their bikes, Guy will sigh because he knows I’m going to invite them in, feed them, and have a rousing discussion with them. More than once, they have actually admitted I know more about the doctrinal intricacies of their faith than they do.)
The entire foundation of Mormonism is Joseph Smith. Was he a legitimate prophet? Did an angel come down and give him a new revelation? Why do we accept or reject his claims?
Anyway, how this connects to my faith journey is, one day I was reading about hermeneutics and it suddenly occurred to me: If I’m willing to assign my own personal experience so much weight so that I can put up with teachings that are incompatible with the “whole counsel of God” as it is revealed through a straightforward reading of scripture, then why is it OK to reject Mormonism?
Along those same lines, how do we determine whether something is truly from God? What standard do we use to determine if Jesus is actually speaking to us?
People will talk about meeting Jesus, being encouraged to love like Jesus, encountering Jesus. And all of that is fine and dandy…EXCEPT, why do we reject some Jesuses (like the Jesus of Mormonism, or the Jesus of Marianne Williamson and the New Agers) but not others?
The standard answer has always been, you run it by the Bible. If it contradicts the Bible, if the Jesus you are encountering is different than the Jesus portrayed in the gospels, then your Jesus is a counterfeit Jesus…the product of your own imagination or maybe even of satanic forces.
Likewise, if you are a Christian and feel like you’re being told to do something and you think it’s Jesus/God telling you to do it, the standard answer has always been, does this behavior contradict what is commanded for believers in scripture? If it does, then the desire to engage in that behavior is coming from your unregenerate old sin nature, not the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus.
Nowadays, though, that standard answer is somehow not satisfactory to a lot of people. Nowadays, even otherwise earnest, committed believers think it’s “mean” or “harsh” to say a straightforward reading of scripture condemns something like homosexual activity.
I blame the seeker-friendly movement for some of this wimpiness about the Bible. Many of us have been conditioned to accept incorrect beliefs about evangelism and what “church” is supposed to be. We have been conditioned to see Jesus and church as products we need to sell to people. Our megachurches offer up endless sermons about having a better family, or managing your money better, or improving your marriage. You can find food banks and addiction recovery groups. What’s confusing, of course, is that there’s nothing exactly wrong about any of those messages or services…but all too often, it’s something of a bait-and-switch at best, where our churches first hide the hard truths of the gospel – truths like, you’re a sinner, lost, an enemy of God, dead in your sins, completely helpless and unable to save yourself or make yourself right with God – and only slip the less appealing parts of the Christian faith in later. At worst, the harder stuff is NEVER mentioned, because we’re afraid our “converts” will be turned off to a Jesus that might make demands on their lives or ask them to change anything.
One rationale for the church’s avoidance of addressing specific sinful behaviors is that many of us have also somehow bought into the idea that “all sins are equal in God’s eyes.”
Really, this was actually HUGE within SGM and is why child molesters were regarded as no worse than someone who was struggling with unforgiveness. There has been this TOTALLY STUPID embrace of thinking that Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 somehow means engaging in adulterous sex isn’t any worse in God’s eyes than merely thinking about it. Or that being gay – engaging in homosexual behavior and building your entire identity upon the foundation of your sexual proclivities – is no worse a sin than gossiping.
Yes, it is true that all sin separates us from God. That was Jesus’ point in Matthew 5-7, that no one among His Jewish listeners could ever hope to follow the law well enough to please God. Jesus was establishing their need for a Savior, someone who was both perfect man AND God, someone who could keep the law perfectly in both outward AND inward ways.
But Jesus was not saying that if you tell a lie, for example, you are going to experience an equal amount of destructive consequences as the person who sins sexually. Later in the New Testament, Paul explains that sexual sin is in a separate category (check out I Corinthians 6, for example). Sexual sin does unique harm to the sinner.
I’m NOT saying there’s somehow not grace for the person who has fallen sexually. Obviously there is! (Because the Bible says there is…)
But – to bring this rambling comment back around to clearly address the original question – if someone reads here and is asking about “refreshment from Jesus” or whatever, sure. Absolutely! We can talk about Jesus and celebrate forgiveness and God’s love all day long. As long as we are clearly discussing the Jesus of the Bible and God’s love as it is portrayed there, balanced equally with God’s perfect and incredible holiness and our utter abject failure without Christ to approach God and meet His holy standards.
You see, my faith journey has led me to resoundingly reject anything that does not go with a straightforward reading of scripture. You wanna celebrate gay pride like Josh Harris did this past weekend? Do so somewhere else. Wanna talk about how Jesus provides salvation and grace for us? Sure, absolutely – as long as I can tell there’s a balance to your comment and you aren’t leading people astray to assume the Bible has somehow suddenly become OK with behaviors it clearly deems sinful.
Because…I mean…why do you believe anything about Jesus, if you feel like rejecting some of scripture? If you’re basing your Jesus on some experience you had, how do we assess whether it’s the Jesus of the Bible or the Jesus of your imagination that was affected by that bad pizza you had last night? This is where I applaud Josh Harris for at least (for now) pretending to be intellectually consistent in his rejection of the Christian faith because he’s rejecting the Bible’s sexual ethic.
Anyway, I’ve reached a place in my own personal walk with the Lord where I’m not going to coddle people here by shying away from standing up for the truth of scripture. Even if those people have been badly hurt by their Sovereign Grace pastors’ misuse of scriptures. Truth is truth. The good news of Jesus is quite literally all we have between us and an eternity in hell. We get the good news of Jesus from the Bible, and pretty much only the Bible (because all other subjective stuff has to be judged BY the Bible or else it is worth no more than Mormonism). Life is too short and the times are evil.
It’s not “mean” or “harsh” to say so. If anything, it’s the least kind thing you could do, to affirm someone in his or her journey to hell in the interest of being nice.
Kris hello:
Are comments now “closed” on Josh Harris says he’s no longer a Christian?
For I think there will be continued beneficial discussion, for this whole dynamic of Sovereign Grace Ministries culture and its teachings ( including Joshua Harris example of his responces of late).
It took a long time, for SGM culture, to be embedded in the body of Christ, and I think it will take some time to have it examined, tested, and adjusted as to the Scriptures lay out, as they say to “put on the Mind of Christ” and as we as “soviours” of this movement have had to do.
For we had learn and to adjust and move on as well. For Gods hand of protection is it on His own, who trust in Him.
Thank you for your last comments, for it is thought provoking.
“You see, my faith journey has led me to resoundingly reject anything that does not go with a straightforward reading of scripture. You wanna celebrate gay pride like Josh Harris did this past weekend? Do so somewhere else. Wanna talk about how Jesus provides salvation and grace for us? Sure, absolutely – as long as I can tell there’s a balance to your comment and you aren’t leading people astray to assume the Bible has somehow suddenly become OK with behaviors it clearly deems sinful.”
Kris – we stand on the same rock. You cannot differentiate Jesus from Scripture. It’s a package deal.
My practice here has been to close comments on the previous post when a new one is published. That way, all the newest comments are in one continuous conversation.
The discussion about Josh Harris can continue here.
Amen sister!
As if this post weren’t long enough, I have a few more thoughts to add…sorry-not-sorry, haha…
My bedrock understanding of the Bible as our final authority is what caused us to question and eventually leave SGM. Interestingly enough, this actually relates to Josh Harris.
Our SGM church, like the majority of SGM churches in 2007, had wholeheartedly embraced Harris’ books. I’d read I Kissed Dating Goodbye when it was first published, and I’d actually agreed with a good deal of his starting premises. Josh was NOT wrong when he called believers to pursue purity. He was NOT wrong when he urged young people to think critically about their romantic practices and why they were doing what they were doing.
But Harris took a biblical command – to flee sexual immorality – and applied it in oddly specific, extrabiblical ways. He called on young people to view all members of the opposite sex as brothers or sisters until they were ready to pick someone and enter into a courtship with them. Harris also equated romantic feelings for someone of the opposite sex with inappropriate physical behaviors. He took the command to “guard your heart” to a place where it was never meant to go, so that teens who grew up with his teachings came to believe that it was akin to adultery to have a crush on someone whom you didn’t end up marrying.
(Specifically, I recall a teaching by Carolyn Mahaney in which she spoke of the need to be careful not to fall in love with some other girl’s [future] husband. Like a 14-year-old risked some weirdo kind of spiritual adultery by having a crush on a boy she thought was cute!)
I can remember watching all this play out in our own SGM church with a mixture of admiration, amusement, and dismay. I had a lot of respect for the families for desiring to honor the Lord with purity…but the weird system that they followed, with so much heavy parental control and input, produced some really strange dynamics. It created SUCH odd, awkward interactions between all the teens, most of whom were already being hemmed in by the socially small world of homeschooling anyway. Every exchange among boys and girls became fraught with way too much significance. Sometimes I just wanted to tell them, “You guys, you’re not going to fall into sexual sin from merely talking to a boy or a girl!”
But, as I said, because of my Bible knowledge, I was aware that the courtship system and the weird hypersensitivities were NOT actually biblical.
SGM’s leaders, Harris included, were highly skilled at inappropriate levels of extrapolation. The “guard your heart” stuff is just a prime example. Interestingly enough, the specific scripture is not actually directly spelling out a command relating to romantic love. Rather, it is about keeping oneself from intellectual sources that might cause one to become weak in faith.
Which is exactly what Harris did when he chose to pursue seminary (or “graduate school,” as he now calls it in his promotional materials) among people who don’t honor scripture as the final authority. Harris failed to guard his own heart where it REALLY mattered.
Kris,
TRUTH TRUTH TRUTH
To Kris last post, for Jash to guard his heart.
Philippians 4:7 NASB — And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 6:20 NASB — O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”—
2 Timothy 1:12 NASB — For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
2 Peter 3:17 NASB — You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
1 John 5:21 NASB — Little children, guard yourselves from idols.
Sorry ment “Josh” in last post.
Gen 1 –
GREAT assortment of passages. I hadn’t even realized how many times the “guard your heart” principle was clearly connected to warding off false beliefs.
This verse reminds me of this conversation:
The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.
Psalm 119:130 NIV
Proverbs 4:23 KJV — Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
Gen 1 … Thanks for the verses above, and for your knowledge of scripture, or at least a knowledge of how to find verses regarding a specific word or phrase. Well done.
That was a great post, Kris. I look back on my years in a deeply flawed shepherding movement church as being transformative in the positive. I learned the difference between inference and commandment, to search the scriptures to confirm or decline what I was being taught, to always take it back to scripture. I am a better person because of it.
So it appears that Josh is the one that is going to come out as gay? …. what past is eventually going to come out that we will be shocked about?
Im telling you, more evil exists in SGM land than what we expected. Things are beginning to make even more sense.
Satan is crafty.
Kris, thank you so well said in so many ways.
‘The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your HEART’. – Mark 12:29-30
‘But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.’ – Rev. 4:12
There are many ‘good’ things a person can love in the Christian Community more than Jesus: ministry success, gifted teachers, service, spiritual gifts, doctrinal convictions, experiences, principals and practices for Christian living and our ability to follow them. The bible does have a category for anything that rises above Jesus in our hearts: idols. These kinds of idols eventually lead us to following another Jesus. They are seductive, blinding, and damaging. When it comes to leaders, they lead Christian leaders to lie about their book sales to inflate their status, they lead Christian leaders to be abusive to the people they lead, they lead leaders to swear in order to be cool and relevant, they lead leader to believe they can have anything they want even thing the Lord forbids, they lead leaders to turn a deaf ear to the hurting and abused and they lead leaders to turn a deaf ear to those who would want to point them back to Jesus. They are so seductive, leaders who lose these idols will do anything possible to keep them or gain them back. When it come to followers these idols can lead us to be undiscerning and follow every wind and wave that blows through the church, they can lead us to follow every crazy fad that comes along, or they can lead us to be proud, bitter, unforgiving and entrenched. They can lead us to blindly follow celebrity pastors, or styles of worship and teaching.They can lead us to being legalistic and to living an antinomian form of grace without truth. They lead us to form factions and tribes. This I believe describes much of what is going on in post-modern evangelicalism. Jesus is not first.
The bible is God’s gift to His People to point us to the real Jesus, full of grace and truth. The Bible is God’s gift to keep Jesus first in our hearts.
Thank you Kris for pointing readers to the real Jesus and the Bible.
In follow up to Kris’s comments, which were (I think) in response to Sopy’s comments about finding a safe place for ex-SGM’ers – Yes, this is Kris’ site, and her original intention was to work out some of her own thoughts about what she was seeing against what she believes – and in the process, people felt safe to come here and talk about SGM. But often, talking about SGM intersects with talking about what we each believe, and I’m sure this puts Kris in a spot, because she doesn’t agree with some beliefs, and doesn’t want this site (a reflection of her beliefs) to be viewed as agreeing with something she herself can’t honestly support.
If this is not out of line, can I caution everyone to think about how each of our own beliefs have changed over the years, and how often we used a biblical justification that we thought was fairly obvious and made sense at the time to justify those beliefs…? Everything is subject to interpretation, and the bible doesn’t interpret itself. And we really do pick and choose what we think is important and what God meant, and what we think is no longer relevant to us today (even if it is stated in the same commanding terms as the other things we do agree with).
I myself prefer to hone in on Jesus’ statements about how all the prophets and law can be summed up in two statements, Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Doctrine is useful for holding an organization together, but it’s not the thing itself – just like the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.
I come here to talk about SGM, and add to the picture that something was and is seriously off about it. I don’t come here to discuss my beliefs in general. But I know some people were and still are reeling from their own experiences – their beliefs took a hit, and they might comment here about their own beliefs, wondering where they can find like-minded people. I don’t believe in safe places, not because I don’t think they should exist, but because I just don’t believe they do exist, though sometimes there is an illusion that someplace is safe (and some places are safer than others). So I am not arguing that this should be a “safe” place. But I do think people should keep in mind Jesus’s words that “they will know you are my disciples by your love for one another,” which I think can be flipped to also read “they will know you are not my disciples by your lack of love for one another.” And I will leave the definition of “love” up to you.
(BTW, the verses I referenced are not meant to be word-for-word quotes from the bible, just my recollection – I’m too lazy at the moment to get the actual references.)
There was a Christian artist about 20 years ago I believe his name was Ray Boltz he had such inspired music of worship that was like it was to the throne room itself.
Ray came out and said he was “gay” and I personally had a very hard time wrapping my head around somebody that could have such a gift from God, and go down the path of degradation. so I went and took all his cassette tapes and his music, and I threw it all away in disgust, and disbelief.
I sure hope that this is not the case with Josh, I pray not.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV — Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Heb 6
1¶Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.
4¶For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
Thessalonians 4
1¶Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3¶For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
But, OutThere, that’s just the thing. We can’t just define “love” however we want to and think we are fulfilling Jesus’ commands.
Biblical love is kind, patient, gentle, self-sacrificing…but it also speaks the truth, which is (again, if we’re holding to a biblical definition of things) what scripture tells us about what’s sin. And about what eternity will be like. And about what we must do to be saved.
Many people, including many Christians now, believe it is “loving” to affirm people no matter where they are or what they are doing. In the case of Josh Harris, there are people who’d say it is “loving” to commend him for declaring he’s not a believer, for marching in a gay pride parade, for “living his truth.”
Many would say it is “loving” to offer up words of understanding and compassion for Josh, and here’s where I think it gets stickier. Does the Bible call us to empathy? I’ve been thinking a lot about that lately. Is biblical “love” empathy?
Is it “loving” (as the Bible would define love) to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes and try to imagine their motivations for where they are in life? I think so?
And yet, how far do we extend empathy?
When does empathy turn into an unkind, uncaring lack of speaking the truth? When does empathy cross the line and become tacit approval and acceptance of things we should not (as believers) approve and accept?
I definitely DO have empathy for Josh Harris. I’ve been saying this all along – I can totally understand why he’s going off the rails now. I don’t know him personally, but I’ve heard enough of the facts of his upbringing and have observed enough of his time in public ministry to say it actually seems logical for him to chuck everything. I think he was maneuvered and controlled for a great deal of his life. I can totally understand why he’d become disillusioned with CJ and SGM and everything connected to his life there.
If – and this is a huge “if,” I want to be very clear and say we do not know anything about this for sure at this point – Josh eventually declares he now identifies as homosexual, I even have empathy for why he might believe that about himself.
But at some point, understanding and empathy have to bump up against what scripture says, and we must speak truth. I may understand why Josh would want romantic relationships with men instead of women (if such is the case, and again, WE DON’T KNOW THAT IT IS, only that he posted photos of himself marching in a gay pride parade over the weekend). But the Bible condemns this behavior, and if Josh is building an identity off of a sinful behavior and never repents of this sinful behavior, then it follows that he’s not one of Jesus’ disciples and when he dies will spend eternity in hell.
Saying that may not sound “nice” or “loving” at all, as the world defines love. But as a Christian who believes what the Bible says, it is actually loving to speak the truth, which is that there is a redeemer who paid the ultimate price for our sins. We can be made right with God for all of eternity if we view our sin as God defines sin, turn from our sins, hate our sins (rather than have PRIDE in them!), and follow Jesus.
Another thought…
Something we have lost sight of as Christians is, if we are truly following Christ, the world is going to hate us. Unbelievers are going to hate us.
It goes to follow, then, that if your level of empathy is getting you props from unbelievers, your empathy might not actually be the love of Jesus.
It is also true that many of us (myself included) are guilty of loving the praises of men rather than God. Especially these days, when biblical truth is viewed as hateful and intolerant by so many, it is very easy to fall into the trap of pretending that we are showing the love of Jesus…when we are actually just sucking up to the world and wanting the world to think we are nice.
Kris – I totally agree that it is loving to tell people what we think is the truth, and that sometimes it sounds harsh or judgmental. My main point was just to bring up the fact that I know what I would have spoken in love 20 years ago makes me cringe sometimes now, and I think many people here have that same experience. Not about everything, but about some things. But for that reason, it gives me pause to declare anything as truth that doesn’t have an underlying reason that makes sense to me. If the best I can do is say, “God said XYZ,” then I leave it alone.
In my earlier post, I was not thinking specifically about Josh supporting the LGBTQ community – this is a site of mostly ex-SGMers, and the topics are mostly about abuse of power, not about fundamental, traditional Christian beliefs. Some people might equate leadership style with traditional Christian beliefs, but even if they did, the subject of leadership and the subject of homosexuality don’t intersect. And anyone coming here to discuss whether homosexuality is acceptable in the Church has come to the wrong site, this was never, ever a site where that was going to be discussed or welcomed.
With that said, the fact that Josh, an ex-SGM pastor, now supports the LGBTQ community does mean that now the topic is bound to come up here (regardless of his own status). But the connection is primarily Josh, not the topic, though I get the need to say something. But he already declared he is no longer a Christian, so I’m sure doesn’t care if anyone thinks he is going to hell. He doesn’t believe in hell. And I don’t believe in magic words, so I don’t see the point in saying anything (though Kris, as moderator and owner of this site, I think it does make sense for you to clarify your own position). That’s where the love that I think Jesus demonstrated comes in – it was more about actions than words. There is a time for words, but I think when someone like Josh – who was a pastor and well-versed in basic Christianity – declares happily that he is no longer a Christian, then we are long past words spoken in truth – he already knows them all and he now rejects them. In fact, an over-empahsis in the past on the words and an under-emphasis on the sacrificial giving without expectations may have been what persuaded him that he could no longer believe. Where are the actions that were supposed to flow from the words?
And that brings us back to the topic of SGM-style leadership and teachings, with its many flaws and misapplications.
I’m not talking necessarily about reaching out to Josh or thinking he’s going to respond to being called out. I’m talking about openly affirming him in his rejection of the Christianity of the Bible. That has happened here.
You see, whether we like it or not, Sovereign Grace DID have lots of things right in their teachings. That’s why so many people who have rejected SGM have also gone on, as Josh has claimed to do, to reject conservative biblical Christianity.
Over the years, a lot of them have posted here, claiming to still be Christians even as they are quick to argue against some fairly obvious claims of the Bible.
I guess an interesting topic would be, what did they get right, and how did it all go so wrong?
What did they get right, the Bible, the Gospel, what did they get wrong, trying to be the Holy Spirit, thru doctren.
Cant have it both ways.
And by the Scriptures, we test their SGM Doctrine, and by that very testing, we find they (SGM) resists the very Holy Spirit of the Bible they preach from.
No wonder people are walking away from the faith.
For God is now a liar? by their testimony, and in their inconsistency of their SMG Doctrine.
Brent (IF) you were involved in or of CLC leadership or SGM leadership approving Josh to as being groomed for lead Pastor for CLC in the early years (2004).
At the time was there any conflict between the two entities? (SGM)-(CLC) Or were both in agreement for Josh’s role at CLC at the time?
So, what testing for the leadership as concerning Josh, as the lead Pastor, the Flag ship CLC, as the beacon for Sovereign Grace Ministries, as the role model for all their churches, to look up to and be guided by.
Josh at the time was saved by Grace,walking and leading a 4000 plus member congregation,and by Brent Face book post “Josh has apostatized”,was he saved? or was he not if not, how come no discernment??
My question is, was there any questions, or concerns of Josh’s readiness for that position at that time? and if there were any concerns, of that current leadership? And WERE they overridden by cj himself? At the time concerning Josh.
And was this the good old boy network?
In hind-site, was Josh really was ready for what he would face 5 to 10 years down the road at CLC, for the whole and complete support system, that put him in place,and that completely abandoned him and his wife and family (cj and company) and a lot of hurting people wanted some answers, and so for some reason, he (Josh) could not, or would not under duress, could satisfactory answer the congregation, or if he did he would be in legal trouble with system he was under.
So does Josh’s current state, lay at the feet of cj, Brent, Robin, and the rest, of them, the Leadership, as well as his own free will and choice?
As Desi Arnaz used to say to Lucy, Lucy you got some splainin to do.
So I say to cj you got some splainin to do.
For in 1st Tim 3-6 says
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Sounds like a good topic, Kris :)
so cj and larry were novice’s when they started out, so no wonder cj gave the OK for Josh
Kris,
You should work your added comments into the original post. They’re too good to leave for someone to stumble across them in the comments.
Gen-1 to Rev-22, I believe Josh is the one who applied for the ‘youth internship’, at CLC, sometime after hearing CJ speak in PA. CJ then interviewed him in OR. At the time, I’m sure Josh realized a guy could advance in SGM, without a seminary degree or college of any kind. CJ had a 2-year plan scoped-out for Josh but, Josh’s marriage to Shannon truncated the internship and possible sped-up the handing-over of the baton (as they put it) from CJ to Josh. CJ had wanted to be free to pursue his relationships with the Big Dogs, found ‘Together for the Gospel’, publish little books with his name on them and speak on the world-stage, whilst watching closely-over what Josh was doing on the home-front. It was when Josh crossed-over into ‘forbidden territory’, aka ‘allowing more transparency’ at CLC, that CJ bolted. That was a mortal sin in SGM Land. I often wonder what would’ve transpired if Josh had not allowed members to speak from an open-mic, at that first family meeting. It was the first time we had ever heard members speak their minds and even share a few ‘negative’ comments about CJ and, it led to the first church-split.
What did SGM get right and what did it get wrong?
Here’s what I think it got wrong, and I think it’s the fatal flaw in charismatic theology: CJ Mahaney believed, and so did his followers, that he spoke for God (2 Chron. 26:12b). But he didn’t.
When a person views himself as speaking “from the mouth of the Lord”, and his followers also believe it, all of the members of that organization must subordinate their thoughts and behavior to the prophet and the prophet’s chosen leadership.
This is extremely dangerous when the prophet guides the organization primarily through extrabiblical revelation (ie “I think God told me…”), but it is also dangerous when the prophet’s idiosyncratic interpretations of scripture are seen as authoritative interpretations (ie “Dating is wrong; courtship is biblical”).
In an organization like this the final authority is the prophet, his revelations and his interpretations of scripture. There simply isn’t room for people to study scripture (and by that I mean the thoughtful hard work that goes into understanding what the author’s original intent is) and come to differing opinions about secondary issues and still be seen as members of the group. Working alongside this dynamic is the need to protect the prophet and thus protect the organization as a whole because, in a sense, the prophet is the organization.
In SGM the people subjugated themselves to Mahaney and his leaders because they thought these men spoke for God, through both prophecy and authoritative interpretation. When former members of SGM abandon the faith, I believe it is a symptom of putting faith in men they believed to be speaking for God. Perhaps their faith was in what Mahaney told them about Christ, not what God’s actual prophets tell us about Christ as preserved in scripture. Rejecting SGM meant rejecting what they viewed as an authoritative source of revelation. Consequently, Christ himself was rejected.
What did Mahaney get right? I think, in many ways, members of SGM were encouraged to read the scriptures and also heard the gospel message presented in such a way it became a saving message that led them to Christ. When the scriptures are read and Christ is proclaimed, people repent and mature. I think God does this through his word despite the circumstances the word finds itself in. I’m sure many people were blessed and grew in maturity in SGM, but now it’s time for them to leave and find fellowship elsewhere.
The sober truth to be wholeheartedly embraced is that one should never subjugate themselves to one who claims to have an especially close relationship to God, but should be a reader and student of scripture in the context of a fellowship of believers, submitting to church leadership when appropriate and viewing that leadership with due respect yet without undue reverence. In this way one will come to truly know God personally, not vicariously through the idiosyncrasies of a pedestaled leader (which is not a personal relationship with God at all).
Paul, I am going to disagree with what SGM got wrong. You said, “When a person views himself as speaking “from the mouth of the Lord”, and his followers also believe it, all of the members of that organization must subordinate their thoughts and behavior to the prophet and the prophet’s chosen leadership.” That was never how CJ acted when it came to role of leading the movement. I am hot sure if you have ever made comments before, but when these 2 discussions come up, some always tend to blame the woes on reformed, charismatic, or apostolic theology. What SGM got wrong, more than any other thing, is that you cannot serve two masters: celebrity status and God. Honestly, you see just as men fallen men in each of the three camps (reformed, charismatic, and apostolic) and the argument is usually a thinly veiled attempt to push the person’s individual beliefs agenda. The truth is, that when it comes to character, they believed and said the rights things, they just couldn’t submit to it themselves. There were some issues of doctrine, but the larger issues were in treating practice equal with Scripture: prescriptive rules for modeaty, courtship, homeschooling, marriage, role of women, etc…)
CJ’s downfall was not in his view of himself as the mouth of God, it was his unbilical views that pastors deserve some special, man-made protection. That includes exclusion from accountability.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/reflections-josh-harris-deconversion/
Kevin DeYoung • Greg Gilbert • Collin Hansen • Justin Taylor
Where was the Gospel Coalition when CJ abandoned Covenant Life Church and fled when confronted?
Where was the Gospel Coalition when Josh Harris stood up to Mahaney on behalf of members who had been spiritually abused under CJ’s watch?
Where was the Gospel Coalition when Shannon was silenced and shamed into submission by leaders in the church?
Where was the Gospel Coalition when CJ refused to reconcile with lifelong friends and family members, choosing instead to estrange himself from all of the people who had supported his ministry spiritually, emotionally and financially for 30+ years?
Where was the Gospel Coalition when Josh was left alone to navigate the carnage that was left in their wake? The suicides? The divorces? The disillusionment? The lawsuit? The conflict?
Did anyone come by his side and confront CJ for the destruction of his church?
Where were they then? Why comment now?
Great comment, Just Saying. They were all kissing up to CJ, is where they were.
Jenn,
I’m open to being wrong, as that has been amply demonstrated throughout my life.
I think that what you are referring to as “celebrity status”, I’m referring to as being a prophet. I think the two ideas are very similar in the Charismatic world. (I was charismatic until my mid-30s). I think a celebrity (in the Christian sense) is someone who people look up to as the ideal they aspire to, and a prophet is someone whose relationship with God is so close people also aspire to the closeness of that relationship.
These two things get really mixed together in Charismatic churches (for example, I’d categorize Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton as Christian celebrities BECAUSE of their self-declared status as apostles/prophets). It gets mixed up in Reformed circles too, but for a slightly different reason. In Reformed circles it’s those who seem to have the best understanding and grasp of what scripture teaches (and are talented speakers) that lends them their celebrity status. (I attend a Calvinistic church).
In both instances, celebrity status is conferred upon those who “know God best”. And who knows God better than an apostle and/or prophet? That is a step up from being just a good Bible teacher.
Here’s a segment from an article that I think gives some credence to the idea Mahaney saw himself as especially close to God:
Brent Detwiler, who served with Mahaney at SGM but now works against him writes, “Historically, the Sovereign Grace churches have affirmed the continuation of the office of apostle. We thought of the leaders of Sovereign Grace Ministries as apostles. This justified the existence and activities of SGM.”
https://www.proclaimanddefend.org/2014/07/10/c-j-mahaney-sgm-abuse-and-the-apostolic-gift/
The really bad idea in charismaticism is that the followers really believe they will know God better and know his will more specifically for their lives the closer they are to the apostles and prophets (and SGM’s flavor of charismaticism allowed for the existence of apostles and prophets, something that is historically rooted in Pentecostalism/Charismaticism as opposed to Presbyterianism or Methodism). I really think that is why charismaticism can be blamed, at least in part, for some of what SGM got wrong.
Whenever members at CLC would disappear and you inquired about them, the pastors would tell you to look at the fruit in their lives. Were they bearing good fruit? If not, they were never saved. It was proof the pastors did nothing wrong.
Victims of abuse don’t bear good fruit. Not because they were never saved, but because they were abused.
In the end, Josh Harris was spiritually abused more than anyone in SGM. Why should we be surprised at the fruit of that? It doesn’t mean he was never saved.
We’re here.
Just Saying…
Very good point, my observation as well.
So how can you bring accountability, to such closed system of thinking.
Its amazing, in this conversation, how the pieces of the puzzle together, and form a clear picture, for people to see.
When Josh tryed to “open the mic” and allowed the leadership to start to see the True picture, cj did not like what he saw, and bolted.
And. We have clear picture.
John 14
19¶Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
ust saying…
August 6, 2019
Whenever members at CLC would disappear and you inquired about them, the pastors would tell you to look at the fruit in their lives. Were they bearing good fruit? If not, they were never saved. It was proof the pastors did nothing wrong.
This was the comment I was referring to in my last posting.
SGC does present Calvinism as the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Paul and Jenn, for what it’s worth, I believe you both make great points but I would go a step further. I believe, based on my personal experience, that SGM failed the most when it elevated the church (and, therefore, its leadership) to a level of idolatry, and I believe that was done gradually but purposefully.
If the leaders had said, “Worship us,” we would have run. But instead they said “Worship the church” which was a bit more palatable. CJ spoke at the Charlotte church one April (my guess is that it was around 2000) and said, “Your priorities should be God, church, family, in that order. Anything else is sin.” I looked around at my fellow CrossWay lemmings and thought, “Does anyone else think that’s heresy?” Apparently not.
We allowed the leaders to dupe us into believing that we needed the church for protection. That naturally put the church leaders on the pedestal. This idolatrous result was no accident. Brent designed this system from its foundation, probably not so we would worship him but because he genuinely believes we are hopeless sheep who need others to make the hard decisions for us. But it elevated the church to a position only God should hold, and while the leadership has a lot of responsibility for that foolishness, so do we who leapt off the cliff.
Luke 12
Cj did cone from Catholic background.
Luke 12: nailed it. Yes, we all remember the law, “Parachurch, bad” that was so easily forgotten amidst scandal when all of their woes were allegedly due to polity. CJ’s inner circle’s biggest grievance with those who spoke out was that they failed to, “protect an elder.” Neirher if those two ideas are Biblical.
Paul, the difference is that we see leaders who do not believe in Charismatic theology embracing the celebrity culture and really behaving just as CJ did.
Just saying, your comments about the GC crew, and you can add Carl Trueman are exactly right. Who really cares what they think about Josh? That is cheap, easy shot from them. Gutless.
Luke, well-said. I would add that CJ was also motivated by fear..fear that members would hurt the church (slander and gossip) and, that members would leave or cause a church split. He overemphasized the significance of pastors and the doctrine of the church, for this reason. CJ was deathly afraid of law suits and worse, church splits. It is therefore ironic, that he himself generated the biggest church split in the history of GOB/CLC/SGM though, he blames Joshua Harris for it.
This is why the shepherding movement was embraced with such tenacity, because it gave cj the control that was needed to hold the system together.
Spot on Luke 12 and Persona
What’s with the negativity about Carl Trueman?
At the very beginning he supported CJ, yes, he was duped. Most of us on this blog were duped at least for a while. I was, for maybe three years or so.
He came around, did a 180, and along with Todd Pruitt, spoke strongly that CJ should not be speaking at T4G.
From his recent post, again, I quote:
“And this brings me back to Harris. It is sad that his marriage is at an end. It is sad that he has abandoned the faith. He alone must take final responsibility for his actions. But he was also the product of, and a major player in, a wider movement that is proving increasingly problematic. As a product, he was exploited by those who saw in him a marketing opportunity and consequently gave him far too much exposure and responsibility far too soon. He was used. I wonder if any of the leading YRR lights have spent a moment reflecting about whether they and the culture they created bear any responsibility for this mess.”
It is neither a cheap shot, or gutless, Jenn. It is valid commentary on a culture of celebrity idolatry. Harris is in terrible deception and sin, but he was also used and abused.
As Luke said, we Survivors foolishly leapt off that cliff. How much higher was that cliff for Josh? CJ’s hand picked successor, the darling of the legalism culture, a national celebrity speaker.
Josh needs prayer. His decisions are frightning, but any of us in his shoes could have done worse. Best to be humble as we watch this unfold.
Trueman has never owned up to the fact that he wrongly propped up CJ through his participation in the panel that declared CJ fit for ministry. That panel only evaluated CJ’s own words. Hi participation was injurious and created further division. So, yes, I do feel it is gutless to sit in his his tower and pontificate about Josh without acknowledging his own role in the mess.
We can all make mistakes, When you don’t own up to it, when it’s brought to your attention and you resist, that’s when it becomes a problem.
Has this been the bottom line concern through this whole thing all along this journey?
Choices.
Really it’s all about choices. Do you wish to love God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength? If so, then the choices you make will reflect that.
Do you love God’s word and all that it entails – even the difficult parts? Even the things you don’t understand? Even when life falls apart? If so, then your choices will reflect that.
I could go on and on with this but you get the point.
Yes, so you screw up. We all do. It’s the choices you made before you screwed up and moreover the choices you make not to screw up like that again.
Your words reveal your heart but your choices, your decisions, your habits, your actions reveal what you really love – the real you – in private and in public.
So you want to run counter to the plain truth of God’s written word? You want to run those red lights, huh? Really? At least I know what you believe and it’s not God’s word or your choices would be different.
Roadwork,
EXCELLENT comment! Thank you.
This is really a good blog post on Josh Harris and Sovereign Grace/CLC. Well worth the read:
http://messiahsmandate.org/why-joshua-harris-kissed-jesus-goodbyefor-now/
Catching up after a few days away. Excellent topics and discussion. Thank you, Kris, for putting into words so much of what I believe personally and
my concern for truth as is defined in God’s word. I’ve always said that it’s about “balance”…a God who is both loving and holy and just.
The Bible is full of stories of those whose faith was tested in hard times. Job is the most well-known. We are so wimpy as Christians these days.
I’m in agreement with Jen regarding those who propped up CJ. “That panel only evaluated CJ’s own words. Hi participation was injurious and created further division. So, yes, I do feel it is gutless to sit in his his tower and pontificate about Josh without acknowledging his own role in the mess.”
5Years, it seems as if you think he has repented. As I don’t know the man personally, I don’t know that he has. HOWEVER, as I’ve always said, “You know how they have repented? They repent.” Maybe the “big wigs” who PUBLICALLY propped up CJ, and condemned his detractors (us and others) HAS repented, but I never saw it on here. Anyone of them could come to a PUBLIC place (like here and a couple of other places) and repent to those he has sinned against here. But to my knowledge that hasn’t happened. If it has, and I missed their post, PLEASE, let me know. I would truly, truly, truly welcome it. The bible talks about the joy when even one sinner repents, and I, too, would join the throngs of heaven in that rejoicing. Is there anything sweeter? I don’t know, but not much.
What did you and I each do when we realized we made mistakes raising our children? Did we just move forward and change? Moving forward and changing is good. Did we just tell our friends, or even strangers that we had changed? That would be fine, too. But we did the right thing. We repented to the very people we harmed: our children. If I mistakenly hit a car in a parking lot, just saying I did it would be useless if I didn’t actually apologize (and offer to FIX the car) to the owner. Imagine walking around the mall telling people that you’ve hit a car, but NOT going to the person whose car you hit. That would be foolishness and it would NOT be the fruit of repentance. When these guys are ready to repent, they will find listening ears here. Until then, why would we give someone credit for doing something they have never done?
How do you know when someone has repented?
They’ll repent.
Thanks Steve 240
Good and accurate read.