Which Jesus?
August 5, 2019 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Years and years ago (circa 2007, can you believe it’s been that long?), this site started as a place to post some of my personal musings about our experience in a Sovereign Grace Church. (If you’re wondering what our experience was like, you can click on the tab above that says, “Who We Are And How We Got Here.”)
This was way before the problems with Sovereign Grace Ministries were EVER discussed publicly anywhere on the internet (except for some random comments on an inactive blog I eventually ended up preserving here). I had no idea other people might have felt the same as we did. Certainly, I had no idea anyone had had far worse experiences they wanted to talk about.
But life has a way of happening. Things change. People grow and change. Guy and I have grown and changed.
Just like Josh Harris, we have evolved in our thinking. Just in a way that’s basically the polar opposite of how he’s changed.
If you’re someone who has had a bad experience in your Sovereign Grace Church…if you’re someone who has stumbled on this site because you’ve been reading about Josh Harris’ recent self-proclaimed apostasy…if you’re looking for information about the Sovereign Grace organization’s historical issues…you’ve still reached a safe place where you can share your story, ask questions, or post your thoughts. Feel free to look around. Click on the “Stories” tab above. Read the sermon transcripts and see for yourself what used to be taught within SG churches.
HOWEVER, I feel like i need to explain where we are coming from nowadays. I’ve gotten more than a few emails asking why certain comments didn’t get published. I owe the readers here an explanation.
I seem to do my best thinking while responding to comments. Today, someone posted a comment and I wrote a response, and my response really captures where my thinking is right now. It might also help people understand where we are coming from nowadays. So I’m going to repost it below.
Again, full disclosure, it’s long and more than a little bit rambling. But hey, it’s the best I’ve got right now. So here goes…
This was posted in response to a commenter who asked,
Do honest and authentic Christians still come here to share their rich faith in Jesus Christ, and to rejoice in his faithfulness?
The short answer to your question is, for me, a resounding “Yes.” I find a lot of encouragement in many of the comments.
A more nuanced answer to your question (“Do honest and authentic Christians still come here to share their rich faith in Jesus Christ, and to rejoice in his faithfulness?”) is, it depends on which Jesus you’re talking about.
See, I’ve been on my own faith journey of sorts over the past several years. I think all believers are, actually, if we’re honest. And my journey has taken me some interesting places. I grew up in a really sweet, wholesome, mindlessly fundamentalist small-town Christian culture, going to the same Bible-believing Evangelical church and attending Christian schools the whole time. Some of the mindlessness about Christianity was a product of the era. I know I sound like an old lady these days, but I’m constantly telling my kids, things have changed TREMENDOUSLY in the past 20 years or so. It used to be that if someone claimed the name of Christ, there were certain things you could assume about their priorities, their attitudes, their lifestyle. Nowadays, that has all changed.
But anyway, that’s how I was raised, and for a number of years into adulthood, Guy and I sort of floated along, attending a couple of what were becoming increasingly bland seeker-friendly megachurches. Their statements of faith were all kosher, the preaching didn’t raise any alarms. But both Guy and I were feeling frustrated in a sort of nameless, formless way.
Then, through a series of random events, we found ourselves attending a Sunday evening service at a charismatic church. I was very yielded and eager…and on that night, I had some sort of experience. For years, I have sought to figure out what that experience was. Was it God? Was it my own brain? Was it the product of my eagerness?
Anyway, after that experience, I was hooked. We left our bland megachurch with nary a backward glance. Guy and I rather quickly became ENGULFED in the charismatic church. Despite all my Christian education (one class shy of a minor in theology, decades of decent teaching) there were a LOT of theological things that I didn’t understand at the time, things about hermeneutics in particular. I also rather deliberately shut my mind off. This was encouraged.
For awhile, things were great. The pastor and his wife were viewed as inaccessible celebrities in the little world they’d created, yet somehow Guy and I were singled out for attention. We felt empowered by and optimistic about the name-it-and-claim-it teachings. I mean, yeah, my old doctrinal muscle memory would nag me sometimes about how unbalanced it was to use some random opening greeting from 3 John (“Beloved, I wish above all else that you be in good health and prosper”) as the foundation for basically everything we were taught about how it was always God’s will to heal people and bless them financially. But I silenced those voices, in large part because I’d always come back to my experiences in the church.
After a few years there, though, things seemed to get wackier. Pretty soon, I couldn’t quiet the nagging thoughts that kept bubbling to the surface. I started to do some serious reading and research. Even though I kept assigning my experiences a great deal of weight (like, because I had such a great experience, the teachings can’t be coming from a totally wrong place), I also started critically examining the name-it-and-claim-it stuff.
It was this questioning that eventually led us to leave our charismatic church and find Sovereign Grace. We were drawn in by SG’s purported commitments to charismaticism and “sound doctrine.”
Anyway, warning, seemingly random segue here, but I promise it will come back around…
Mormonism has actually been an interest of mine for years. I educated myself on this religion when I first encountered some friends who seemed so Christian in their behavior but were actually LDS. I had to know how their beliefs differed from my own. I ended up learning so much about Mormonism. (It’s hilarious, when the Mormon missionaries roll up to our doorstep on their bikes, Guy will sigh because he knows I’m going to invite them in, feed them, and have a rousing discussion with them. More than once, they have actually admitted I know more about the doctrinal intricacies of their faith than they do.)
The entire foundation of Mormonism is Joseph Smith. Was he a legitimate prophet? Did an angel come down and give him a new revelation? Why do we accept or reject his claims?
Anyway, how this connects to my faith journey is, one day I was reading about hermeneutics and it suddenly occurred to me: If I’m willing to assign my own personal experience so much weight so that I can put up with teachings that are incompatible with the “whole counsel of God” as it is revealed through a straightforward reading of scripture, then why is it OK to reject Mormonism?
Along those same lines, how do we determine whether something is truly from God? What standard do we use to determine if Jesus is actually speaking to us?
People will talk about meeting Jesus, being encouraged to love like Jesus, encountering Jesus. And all of that is fine and dandy…EXCEPT, why do we reject some Jesuses (like the Jesus of Mormonism, or the Jesus of Marianne Williamson and the New Agers) but not others?
The standard answer has always been, you run it by the Bible. If it contradicts the Bible, if the Jesus you are encountering is different than the Jesus portrayed in the gospels, then your Jesus is a counterfeit Jesus…the product of your own imagination or maybe even of satanic forces.
Likewise, if you are a Christian and feel like you’re being told to do something and you think it’s Jesus/God telling you to do it, the standard answer has always been, does this behavior contradict what is commanded for believers in scripture? If it does, then the desire to engage in that behavior is coming from your unregenerate old sin nature, not the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus.
Nowadays, though, that standard answer is somehow not satisfactory to a lot of people. Nowadays, even otherwise earnest, committed believers think it’s “mean” or “harsh” to say a straightforward reading of scripture condemns something like homosexual activity.
I blame the seeker-friendly movement for some of this wimpiness about the Bible. Many of us have been conditioned to accept incorrect beliefs about evangelism and what “church” is supposed to be. We have been conditioned to see Jesus and church as products we need to sell to people. Our megachurches offer up endless sermons about having a better family, or managing your money better, or improving your marriage. You can find food banks and addiction recovery groups. What’s confusing, of course, is that there’s nothing exactly wrong about any of those messages or services…but all too often, it’s something of a bait-and-switch at best, where our churches first hide the hard truths of the gospel – truths like, you’re a sinner, lost, an enemy of God, dead in your sins, completely helpless and unable to save yourself or make yourself right with God – and only slip the less appealing parts of the Christian faith in later. At worst, the harder stuff is NEVER mentioned, because we’re afraid our “converts” will be turned off to a Jesus that might make demands on their lives or ask them to change anything.
One rationale for the church’s avoidance of addressing specific sinful behaviors is that many of us have also somehow bought into the idea that “all sins are equal in God’s eyes.”
Really, this was actually HUGE within SGM and is why child molesters were regarded as no worse than someone who was struggling with unforgiveness. There has been this TOTALLY STUPID embrace of thinking that Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 somehow means engaging in adulterous sex isn’t any worse in God’s eyes than merely thinking about it. Or that being gay – engaging in homosexual behavior and building your entire identity upon the foundation of your sexual proclivities – is no worse a sin than gossiping.
Yes, it is true that all sin separates us from God. That was Jesus’ point in Matthew 5-7, that no one among His Jewish listeners could ever hope to follow the law well enough to please God. Jesus was establishing their need for a Savior, someone who was both perfect man AND God, someone who could keep the law perfectly in both outward AND inward ways.
But Jesus was not saying that if you tell a lie, for example, you are going to experience an equal amount of destructive consequences as the person who sins sexually. Later in the New Testament, Paul explains that sexual sin is in a separate category (check out I Corinthians 6, for example). Sexual sin does unique harm to the sinner.
I’m NOT saying there’s somehow not grace for the person who has fallen sexually. Obviously there is! (Because the Bible says there is…)
But – to bring this rambling comment back around to clearly address the original question – if someone reads here and is asking about “refreshment from Jesus” or whatever, sure. Absolutely! We can talk about Jesus and celebrate forgiveness and God’s love all day long. As long as we are clearly discussing the Jesus of the Bible and God’s love as it is portrayed there, balanced equally with God’s perfect and incredible holiness and our utter abject failure without Christ to approach God and meet His holy standards.
You see, my faith journey has led me to resoundingly reject anything that does not go with a straightforward reading of scripture. You wanna celebrate gay pride like Josh Harris did this past weekend? Do so somewhere else. Wanna talk about how Jesus provides salvation and grace for us? Sure, absolutely – as long as I can tell there’s a balance to your comment and you aren’t leading people astray to assume the Bible has somehow suddenly become OK with behaviors it clearly deems sinful.
Because…I mean…why do you believe anything about Jesus, if you feel like rejecting some of scripture? If you’re basing your Jesus on some experience you had, how do we assess whether it’s the Jesus of the Bible or the Jesus of your imagination that was affected by that bad pizza you had last night? This is where I applaud Josh Harris for at least (for now) pretending to be intellectually consistent in his rejection of the Christian faith because he’s rejecting the Bible’s sexual ethic.
Anyway, I’ve reached a place in my own personal walk with the Lord where I’m not going to coddle people here by shying away from standing up for the truth of scripture. Even if those people have been badly hurt by their Sovereign Grace pastors’ misuse of scriptures. Truth is truth. The good news of Jesus is quite literally all we have between us and an eternity in hell. We get the good news of Jesus from the Bible, and pretty much only the Bible (because all other subjective stuff has to be judged BY the Bible or else it is worth no more than Mormonism). Life is too short and the times are evil.
It’s not “mean” or “harsh” to say so. If anything, it’s the least kind thing you could do, to affirm someone in his or her journey to hell in the interest of being nice.
© 2019, Kris. All rights reserved.
Regarding Sovereign Grace selling their portion of the CLC building what I find interesting is:
– Sale Price: $525,000
This is what SG paid for their portion of the CLC building according to their financial statement:
– 2002 Price: $1,890,190
According to the same financial statement if SG forced the sale, CLC would have to have paid SG:
– “lesser of 45% of estimated fair market value of the premises or the original payment adjusted yearly by the annual change in Consumer Price Index.”
If CLC forced the sale the 45% increases to 85%.
I am not sure how they came to the sale price of $525K but quite a drop from what SG originally paid for their portion. It is hard to believe the fair market value is only around $525 K. Also interesting that SG is being paid as a “share of future rental income.”
Then again with COVID-19 I am sure the market is weak for office type space. Still quite a large drop in value from 2002.
Maybe this tells a story of two financially tight organizations: CLC & Sovereign Grace?
Sovereign Grace Churches 2019 Financial Report:
https://www.scribd.com/document/483236832/Sovereign-Grace-Churches-2019-Financial-Statement
Todd Wilhelm I am using a work computer so I probably should not download to look at the report. Is there anything that stands out in the report.
Thanks.
I wonder what 2020’s will look like… How will it reflect that a dozen churches left SGC in 2019/20, SGC got significant PPP funds, and then sold CLC their basement property?
Former Lover of CLC
I am not Todd but can give you my comments.
In fiscal year 2019, CLC was still paying SG rent to use SG’s portion of the CLC building ($19,000 in fiscal year 2019).
I have copies of older SG financial statements back to year 2012.
– FY 2012 $4.6M net assets
– FY 2014 $2.6M net assets
– FY 2019 their net assets dropped $228 k from FY 2019
– FY 2019 $3.1M net assets
Surprising their net assets haven’t dropped as much as I would have thought they would have. That may change with FY 20 (ends 8/31/20) with both their writing off of some of the value of their portion of the CLC building and additional churches leaving the “family.”
It will be interesting to see the next report.
Steve,
Do you know which churches left this year?
Stunned
Not sure which exact ones and may have been late last year but a group left with Paul Buckley.
Stunned
I did a little research and found the info you wanted to know. Back in May Brent wrote that some churches left the movement to form their own association. If you google Trinity Fellowship Churches it will take you to their website.
Thanks very much!
https://trinityfellowshipchurches.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/tfc-bco-version-02-may-2020.pdf
pages 11-12
2.7 Extra-Local Leaders
245 In order for our local churches to thrive and remain faithful, these churches delegate
246 certain authority to extra-local leaders and structures within TFC. This stewardship
247 gives extra-local leaders and structures the right to do certain things within our
248 denomination such as adjudicate charges against elders, censure elderships as needed,
249 coordinate mission, approve ordinations, and certain other functions articulated in the
250 BCO.
Such extra-local leaders and structures do not hold any church authority apart
from that properly assigned to them from local church elders.48 251
252 We understand that God uses gifted men to serve in various functions beyond the local church for the greater good of the Church and her mission.49 253 Some in TFC would
254 understand such functions to be apostolic or even the functions of a modern day,
“small-a” apostle.
**************
So, they left SGM but kept the structure with the small a apostles. They can “censure elders” as needed. Note the line about elders:
“Elders, overseers, and pastors are synonymous in the New Testament.38 202 These three
203 descriptions speak of one office.”
They are correct. In moving to what sounds like a hefty dose of Presbyterianism with a confession and Book of Church Order, they now call the pastors the elders.
So, the small a apostles can censure the elders. Same old, same old. They will swear it is different this time, that there will be no heavy handed authority, and no abusive de-gifting of good men. Do you believe that will hold true down the road?
When we had our first meeting-interview with royalty before joining, we expressed reservations about submitting to Mahaney up the chain. We were assured in no uncertain terms to our face that the local pastors ruled the church and had full authority and did not submit to CJ (although we were corrected about how wonderful he was).
They lied. It was blatant dishonesty. Took us at least three years to realize that CJ pulled the strings, or maybe I should say all the A’s/a’s ruled, and local churches were not elder ruled.
Same structure, same “a” in control with the right to censure elders.
You want a bishop, fine. Join the Methodists. Join the Roman Catholics. Join the military. Join the new Trinity SGM. Be ready to submit.
“We believe that the highest authority in the church today is that of local elders. We
278 believe that extra-local leadership is meant to serve local churches as a stewardship of
279 the responsibilities and authority given to them by local churches and their elders. Any
280 partnerships formed must not override the clear biblical authority or function of the
281 local church and its elders. It must not create an additional category of authority above
282 that of elders.”
You believe that? You really think anybody steeped their entire life in SGM can let go of that spirit that has been infused for years? So much almost obsessive detail on authority. I don’t think there is any hope for them at all except to get away from this group 100%, go find some little normal nice church, and never go back to the clique.
On the plus side, page 28, sex abuse has to be reported to the civil authorities. Don’t feel like taking time to check out the rest.
Hope you are well. We are in fervent prayer for the nation and for all the grave matters that face us. I long to see a true revival.
Thank you, both!
Covenant Life Church Newsletter from April 1988:
https://www.scribd.com/document/489406669/Covenant-Life-Church-April-1988-Family-News
Upper right column of page 2, Grant Layman writes: “Nate Morales is overseeing our International Student Ministry and is doing a great job! Starting from scratch this past year Nate is now meeting regularly with approximately twenty international students. Valentine’s Day will always be a memorable day for Nate as he proposed to Miss Pam Bassett after a romantic dinner in Annapolis. They are planning to be married on August 20. By the way, since October Nate has lost over fifty pounds! Congratulations!!!”
Page 1 is cult pablum written by C.J. Mahaney
BTW, Miss Pam Bassett broke off the engagement. I bet she has no regrets over that!
Do alarm bells go off for anyone else when they hear church leadership talking about “vision casting” or “casting a vision?” Sovereign Grace is behind the power curve on this, as Mark Prater seems to have just gotten with the program. Prior to this, he was “winsomely” urging the faithful to be “on mission.”
Here is the latest propaganda from Prater followed by a link to an article I agree with regarding vision casting.
———————————————–
Benjamin Kreps:
Hey everyone. And welcome to the Mark Prater podcast where our name is to connect our global family of churches with our Executive Director. Merry Christmas, Mark! It’s the end of the year. So much to be grateful for in Sovereign Grace Churches. One gift that I think we can all agree we are grateful for historically, presently in Sovereign Grace is the gift of leadership. Not only the Leadership Team, but also our Regional Leaders and the influence and impact they have on us as elders and on our churches. We talked earlier this year about how the Leadership Team is moving from more of a management polity focused approach to an envisioning, a future oriented, approach of leadership. What does that have to do with our Regional Leaders and what they’re up to?
Mark Prater:
Well, Merry Christmas, first of all, to you Ben! And before speaking about the Regional Leaders, one of the things I’m so grateful for is this podcast. It’s been a lot of fun. I think we may be able to continue into season two. I don’t think we’re going to get canceled. So if you’re up for it, we’ll keep doing this.
Benjamin Kreps:
I’ll try.
Mark Prater:
Okay, great. The Regional Leaders I do thank God for. They are a very important part of leading in our family of churches. As you mentioned, I presented a 5-10-year strategic plan to the Executive Committee back over the summer. And the very first component of that strategic plan is for the Leadership Team to change its voice from, you know, being more, more policy driven, and crisis management driven to one that is inspirational, vision casting and theologically equipping.
There are so many expressions of that leadership that we’ve begun to implement or are implementing, but a very important part of that is our Regional Leaders. And I just want to take a moment to thank God for them and mention them by name. Jared Mellinger leads the Northeast region, John Loftness leads the Mid-Atlantic region, Mickey Connolly, the Mid-South region, Keith Collins the Southeast region, Ken Mellinger the Great Lakes region, Greg Dirnberger leads the Midwest-Northwest region, Eric Turbedsky leads the West region, C.J. Mahaney leads the East Central region, and then the South Central region is led by Darrel Schiel. Now guys may not know that Jon Payne led that region for a number of years, but when transitioning onto the Leadership Team, he resigned, and that region chose and voted to affirm Darrel Schiel. For you guys who don’t know Darrel, he’s the Senior Pastor of Sovereign Grace Church in Pearland, Texas, which is a southern suburb of Houston. He has done a great job of leading that church. And I believe he’ll do a great job of leading that region. So, I thank God for those nine men here in the States who lead their regions so well. And they’re just so important part of what we do as a Leadership Team in strategically leading our family of churches.
Bgenjamin Kreps:
Yeah. Wonderful. So what what’s ahead. What’s on the docket when it comes to the Leadership Team investing into our Regional Leaders?
Mark Prater:
We’ve got number of things we’re going to do, but I think one that I want our guys to be aware of, to be praying for, is we have three retreats a year as a Leadership Team. And, so, back at our fall retreat of this year, we decided that we wanted to invite the Regional Leaders to join us for one of those three leadership team retreats. And we chose June 2021. We have a retreat, I think it’s the first or second week of June planned. And they’ll join us for the first half of that retreat. And a part of our desire about how to use that time is to just build with them relationally, obviously, to continue to do that. And just to them on some of our thinking in terms of how to lead Sovereign Grace. But, also, we want to hear from them on things that we can do that would serve them to benefit their leadership. And I mentioned that because the way we view our Regional Leaders, they’re really the frontline leadership, not the Leadership Team. And we don’t we really lead together with them. It’s not like the Leadership Team decides certain things and hands these orders down to the Regional Leaders. It’s not that at all. It’s actually leading alongside of them as we seek to serve and care for our churches. So, I think it’s going to be a really strategic time in June and one that you guys can be praying for.
Benjamin Kreps:
Wonderful. Any other thoughts about our Regional Leaders before we conclude?
Mark Prater:
Yeah. I just think that what I want them to hear and our guys to hear, is that in one sense, they are called to make sure the polity gets implemented in each Regional Assembly.
Benjamin Kreps:
Right.
Mark Prater:
At the same time, we want to maintain the gift of leadership, not only at a denominational level, but at a regional level as well. So we don’t want them to view their role as simply policy implementers or stewarding a regional assembly. We really want them to feel free to bring their leadership where they cast their vision for the region, where they find ways to theologically equip a Regional Assembly of Elders. And sort of expressions of leadership like that shouldn’t be inhibited by our polity. If anything, I think our polity actually strengthens that kind of leadership. And I think it works well together.
Benjamin Kreps:
Yeah, well, I’m certainly grateful for the grace of leadership in the lives of the Regional Leaders. Ken Mellinger is killing it in the Lower Great Lakes region. He’s been such a blessing as he brings his influence to our churches. And grateful for you, Mark, as you lead the Leadership Team. And looking forward to the days ahead and what God will do in our denomination through the gift of leadership. Just so everybody knows, we’re taking next week off. It’s New Year’s and you know, maybe they’ll have us back. Maybe we’ll see if the powers that be allow us to continue our podcasts. So Merry Christmas again, Mark, and Merry Christmas to everybody else watching. And we’ll see you here soon. Bye for now.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20201230020841/https://tylerramsbey.com/2018/11/13/the-danger-of-casting-vision/
Diane Langberg, PhD
“Our faith systems have glorious goals, to bring many to Christ, to make disciples. But over time our stated purpose is often no longer our governing purpose. The unstated, but governing purpose becomes attracting more people, raising more money, or achieving greater renown.”
https://twitter.com/DianeLangberg/status/1344038536236961793?s=20
“BTW, Miss Pam Bassett broke off the engagement. I bet she has no regrets over that!”
I am sure she does. When Morales claimed in his sentencing that he couldn’t remember abuse he did towards certain boys I think Pam commented to the media questioning Morales claiming he couldn’t remember.
At CLC you would see a lot more engagements being broken off than one would normally expect. Though good to break off an engagement if one person thinks there are issues I think the higher level of these engagements ending was due to the pressure that “kissing dating goodbye” put on couples to either become engaged of stop seeing each other. Josh Harris’s book on “kissing dating goodbye” and then his follow up courtship book made it more imperative to not casually date but only be in a relationship with a purpose.
What is a lot worse than the broke off engagements is sadly the couples that did get married quickly and either found out later they weren’t real compatible or even those with the rush of getting married didn’t make the actual preparations that would have helped.
I think some of this about “kissing dating goodbye” has been acknowledged by some recently with all that has gone on with Josh Harris and his wife.
Thanks, Steve. Happy New Year.
Another sex abuse and cover up story comes out about Covenant Life Church:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2021/01/08/another-sovereign-grace-survivor-tells-her-shocking-story-of-sexual-abuse-by-founding-member-of-covenant-life-church/comment-page-1/#comment-439528
Thanks, Steve. I would not have seen this without your post. It’s a big deal.
Another Thanks, Steve.
That is so sad.
We were in a church years ago with a woman who was over the top mental and started screaming at another woman, and making trouble for children. The pastor had it hauled it before the elders who took months to go through a reconciliation attempt, but that isn’t my point. What I want to point out is that the pastor told the victims of the crazy, when they wanted to get objective outside counsel in dealing with it, to stop giving tithes to the church and take all the counseling money out of their tithes/offering.
This what you do when you are a true pastor. You feed the sheep, you bind up their wounds. If they need more help then you can give, you do what you can- including finances- to see that they can get help. Some churches are truly broke….but CLC was not. Part of the problem is they didn’t think people needed more help than the SGM leader, but part of it is being hirelings.
I strongly suspect Josh tried his best, but the same group of pastors who attacked him when he said SGM had turned biblical principles into legalistic practices refused as a group to pay for counseling. Just my speculation.
Sad. I hope these people can go on with life in the joy of the Lord one day. Giving up on Jesus Christ in response is the biggest mistake of their life….but woe to those who put stumbling blocks in people’s way.
Glad my posting the link was helpful. Though I had only just met and talked with Jeff just a few times, it isn’t something you would expect. Then again you never know. Still something how Jeff was a founding member of the original CLC called Gathering of Believers at the time and went back to the TAG days.
Shocking or maybe not so shocking that someone like him was at CLC from its founding in 1977 until around 2014. What is sadder that this wasn’t addressed for quite a long time. Had Jeff’s abuse and alcoholism been addressed early at least some of the damage wouldn’t have occurred.
Very sad.
Just thinking tonight of how grateful I am for this website, for every person who contributed here over the years. For Kris and Guy. For kindness and grace and all the tears that flowed here. And mostly for the truth that finally came to light so that so many could begin their healing.
Stunned
I am also quite thankful including Kris & Guy as well as all the commenters. As has been said before, with this blog the documents that were made public almost 10 years ago that exposed the sin and hypocrisy in Sovereign Grace (7/2011) wouldn’t have had nearly the impact without this blog. Also, SGM Refuge was quite helpful.
On that note of the upcoming “anniversary” of the documents being made public, I do wonder what might have happened if C.J. Mahaney and the other Sovereign Grace Leaders had done the right thing and admitted their sin, faced the consequences and repented. To put this another way, had Sovereign Grace Leaders practiced what they taught that others should do when their sin and hypocrisy was exposed. We won’t know this side of eternity.
Though sad that there wasn’t repentance, maybe Sovereign Grace Leadership was too far gone in 2001 that even had they truly confessed and repented it would have been too late. So far have seen a fairly large demise in number of churches & people as well as income coming in. I imagine the only thing Sovereign Grace Leaders really understand is money though I am sure they will claim otherwise.
For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
— 1 Timothy 6:10
I echo Stunned’s appreciation for Kris & Guy and this blog that Kris was brave enough to launch a decade ago, in an age when bloggers like Kris were scorned as “gossipers and slanderers” for giving “alleged victims” a voice.
The recent news of Ravi Zacharias and sex scandal came out in part through the efforts of an atheist blogger.
“The secret of Zacharias’s abuse started to unravel the day of his funeral in May 2020. One of the massage therapists he groped, masturbated in front of, and asked for sexually explicit images watched in shock as the apologist was honored and celebrated on a livestream. Famous people, including Vice President Mike Pence and Christian football star Tim Tebow, spoke of Zacharias in glowing terms.
Has no one come forward? she thought. No one?
She worried about other women who might be out there, hurting. She prayed that something would happen.
The woman googled “Ravi Zacharias sex scandal” and found the blog RaviWatch, run by Steve Baughman, an atheist who had been tracking and reporting on Zacharias’s “fishy claims” since 2015. Baughman blogged on Zacharias’s false statements about academic credentials, the sexting allegations, and the subsequent lawsuit. When the woman read about what happened to Lori Anne Thompson, she recognized what had happened to that woman was what had happened to her.”
And Collin Hansen on the TGC site said this…
“We live in a time when digital publishing has helped enterprising journalists and courageous victims tell the truth. Some of those journalists paid a price when they told the world what we didn’t want to hear about Zacharias. All too often threats of financial retaliation have kept victims and their allies from speaking out, and periodicals from publishing them. But new media have changed the landscape and shifted power toward the abused. Now you can find a sympathetic ear somewhere on the internet, and with that person’s help, you can stand up against multimillion-dollar ministries with everything to lose if the truth is exposed.
The world loves its heroes, but it’s also learning to believe victims, now that we’ve heard from more and more of them. Abusers may be able to switch towns, change churches, and start new ministries, but the internet will not allow them to evade scrutiny. Adoring new fans may emerge to subsidize their false teaching or abusive behaviors, but the internet will not allow them to silence all past victims.“
Thank you Kris & Guy for doing the Lord’s work.
Rachel Denhollander made this tweet. Quite a lot of insight. A lot of application to Sovereign Grace:
“ Rachael Denhollander
For every leader who has written a blog post, tweeted, commented on, the steps being taken by RZIM, how good they are, how important the truth is, or how to prevent this, please hear the grief you are compounding:
You have written about how God and right these steps are, but not until they were already taken. Not until the facade was removed.
You did not lift your voice to cry for the truth you now applaud. That fell on the shoulders of the victims. The women.
You applaud the independent investigation, but never pressed for it when it needed to be done.
When your voice was desperately needed in 2017 and all the years that followed, you were silent.
You left the victims alone, your silence a deafening testament that you did not care
You praise accountability but as far as I can see, have never ONCE demanded it of anyone you labor alongside.
Not SGC. Not Ravi. Not Paige Patterson, or Jerry Vines, or any other leader accused of abuse or enabling.
You took less than 24 hours to put your voice out there applauding a step you could not be bothered to ask for when your voice was desperately needed by the most vulnerable.
You had nothing to say until the work was done and it cost you nothing.
The work was done by the victims and the cost borne by them, and by advocates who you refused to heed for four years, or who you have outright maligned.
But now you wish to speak and offer wisdom and counsel and support? As if these were steps you knew all along were needed?
If this repentance and these steps you applaud were so godly and important and needed, where were your voices urging them?
Where are your voices urging them now for leaders and institutions that have steadfastly refused these very steps?
Where is YOUR apology for the silence? For maligning victims and advocates who have long urged these steps with RZIM, SGC, the SBC and so many more? The same steps you now applaud?
Where was your voice when it was desperately needed? Where was your conviction when it would cost?
In less than 24 hours so many of you have offered your theories on why this happened and how to prevent it – how much time have you spent learning deeply from survivors and experts about the real dynamics of abuse, it’s causes, and prevention?
Everything that has been brought to light came at the cost and effort of the survivors and advocates. Few to none of whom you have listened to, many of whom you have maligned in days past for their work, and none of whom you have apologized to.
It is not time to applaud steps you are not willing to raise your voice for when it counts. Do not act as if this matters to you when you do not care enough when it would cost.
Stop applauding this step. Start urging those who have refused this step, to take it. Do it publicly.
Stop offering fixes and prevention when you have spent no time learning from those who have sacrificed so much to be able to truly understand abuse, it’s dynamics, prevention and response. From those who sounded the alarm years before your theories.
Use your voice and platform to point to the work they have done, the price they paid, the cost of not listening earlier. Point people to the wise counsel purchased at great cost.
Wait to speak until you have faithfully spoken when it would cost.
Every time the facade is lifted on an abuser victims wait, anticipating the flood of statements from the very people they begged to help them.
They know it is coming, because it always does once it is easy. And it is crushing to watch again and again
And yes leaders, there was much pleading publicly for your voice not just here, but in many places where you enjoy the benefits of co-laboring, while wanting none of the responsibilities.
You took less than 24 hours to raise your voice. But you are years too late.”
A Kindred Spirit, I was just thinking about you a couple of days ago and wondering how you are. I hope well!
So sad to think of the damage Ravi Z did.
I long for the day that no minister is ever lifted up. When all are nameless and it is ONLY the name of Jesus that matters.
Those people who spoke out are sooo brave. So strong. I pray for their healing.
Steve, thank you for sharing what Rachael D shared, as well.
Here is a article just posted,for all the on going heartache in the Body of Messiah due to double standards, and lack of accountabelity from its apologists, and it’s leaders.
Dr.Brown gives good advice and conciderations to help navagate, to keep a Godly perspective.
Luke 8-17
For nothing is hidden that will not become evident,nor anything secret that will not be known and come to the light.
please see link below:
https://askdrbrown.org/library/how-should-we-respond-ravi-zacharias-scandal
Gen-1 to Rev-22
A lot of good points in the link you shared. It is quite sad seeing all that has been exposed about Ravi Zacharias. Hopefully this event will trigger some change and people not assume leaders just because they can speak so eloquently or captivate people’s attention (e.g. C.J. Mahaney) mean that there is character. As one person states it people need to realize you can’t equate gifting with character.
In some ways this really isn’t something new. A lot of leaders have recently been exposed with various character issues that took a lot for their firing to occur.
Perhaps the only thing that makes it so bad is how much he did and how long and they Ravi Z’s sin and hypocrisy was sexual vs. the hypocrisy of other leaders being something else.
Here is another blog post on this same issue:
https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/you-are-one-step-away-from-complete-c25
It is shocking to read this article and how Ravi’s group basically wanted to ignore red flags that came up due to various pressures apparently. I see resemblances with Sovereign Grace doing similar actions to protect leadership and their “institution.” That is nobody wants to admit that there sin issues with the key person in either organization.
Rachael Denhollander has a long multipage tweet on it about leaders who are now jumping on the bandwagon condemning Ravi Z while in the past they were silent:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1360445596415520769.html
On the note of “gifting” what’s sad is, that CLC in their early years,gifting was looked and perceived through the lens of “loyalty” to leadership, and that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, became synonymous with the “loyalty” and the “vision” and the “protection” of the institution.
It all morphed into “one in the same” hence there was no accountability, or correction, or voice, allowed from the congregation, because they (leadership) was defending the Gospel of Jesus with the definition above, and the Gospel is the Good News and it’s perfect in it’s message to the world right?
As I remember back then in the early 80’s, people that were implemented and placed leadership positions, that had natural gifts and that they were qualified to have the spiritual gifting as well.
And we all know how well that turned out over the years.
The Holy Spirit and the gifts were only to able to operate and flow through a one-way check valve so to speak,of leadership.
“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”
— Luke 6:46-49
Hi Friends, given how helpful and active Rachael Denhollander has been with exposing SGM, I thought I would add the news I just woke up to. Recently, charges were filed against the 2012 Women’s Gymnastic coach, John Geddert, whom others spoke out about during the trial of Larry Nassar a few years ago. Geddert had more than 24 charges filed against him. On Thursday, rather than face the charges, he killed himself. (This is often the option of narcissists who feel the jig is up.) I think it is important for those of us who pray, to pray for all the young women who were harmed by this man. Not seeing him brought to justice may be rather painful for many of them and this may cause some of their healing to be sidetracked for a bit.
In case people aren’t aware here is Rachel Denhollander’s post on her position about Sovereign Grace on SG’s sex scandal:
https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?params=%7B%22note_id%22%3A1625049014354463%7D&path=%2Fnotes%2Fnote%2F&refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F&_rdr
Recent Josh Harris interview:
https://nadiabolzweber.com/303-joshua-harris/
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
— John 3:16-21
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
— 2 Timothy 4:1-4
Steve 240:
Well. That interview was disturbing. I only read the transcript and have no desire now to listen to the audio. Nothing like a 180 there, Josh. So, without trying to “read between the lines”, I’m wondering what Josh might call “permissible” now.
I did a little Googling on NBW for some context and I’m sorry I did. How do these whack jobs call themselves theologians? Seems she may have skipped reading Corinthians and maybe Josh ripped those pages from his personal copy of The Good Book.
Okay, so we all agree that any sort of legalism isn’t right but does that mean we sin so that grace may abound?
I had the privilege of listening to Josh’s mom, Sono, once. That was many, many years ago and I still remember her message. I wonder what his mother would think of her son’s “enlightenment”.
In the immortal words of the minstrel, Steve Taylor, “What Ever Happened to Sin?”
C J Mahaney, with his heart filled with pride, and his mind darkened by foolishness, weaponizes his idea of Christianity, with the tools of sin sniffing and guilt. He taught his parishioners to NOT trust themselves. He then taught them to be his extended eyes and ears. Didn’t take long for this environment to create information gathers. A elite group of these individuals was formed. Every parishioner was examined and watched by their respective mentor. Weekly care groups were made with a strobe pecking order, mandatory. Every one knew who was in and who was out. And no one wanted to be on the outside. Soon the most intimate personal parishioners lives details were known, catalogued and archived for future use. This religious group closed ranks, leaving extended family and former friends on the OUTSIDE. Various credentialed medical doctors and lawyers were shunned. In-house professionals were used word of mouth. Quietly only the approved would render services. This group steadily considered internals only. All problems were considered and addressed by assigned leader types. Absolutely no one disagreed or challenged their Apostles or assigned leaders without serious penalty. The list goes on. You get the drift. After many incorporated name changes, this group became known as sov•er•eign Grace Churches. Their pack mentality MAY continue to this day… Sanitized histories of this questionable group abound on the internet. Please Beware. The life you save may be your own.
Joshua Harris?
.
hmmm…
His next book is pre•sumed forthcoming, “I Kissed Christianity Goodbye.”
Is this blog still functional?
This is a podcast that talks about how one couple in a Sovereign Grace Church were basically “silenced” when they brought up Rachel Denhollander’s remarks about C.J. Mahaney and wondered why there wasn’t an outside investigation.
Search untangledfaithpodcast
Amy Fritz is the one that hosts this.
For some reason I can’t paste links.
https://untangledfaithpodcast.com/index.php/2021/05/05/sovereign-grace-shining-a-light-on-abuse-part-2-of-sarah-and-jeff-owens-story/
Above is the link.
Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Thank you for sharing this, Steve!!! Very glad I got to hear this.
The other day I heard a great interview along similar lines and I think it is worth listening to. I’ll see if I can find it then I’ll post it here.
OK, found it. This is an interview with Diane Langberg. Diane is in her 70s now. She is powerhouse who speaks about abuse in the church and teaches on the psychology of abuse in the church. She is on the board of GRACE (God Response to Abuse in the Church Environment.) Diane and GRACE have interacted with many SGM Survivors.
My favorite line from this interview was to the effect of “Don’t worry about people judging Jesus by the church scandal. Worry about judging the church by Jesus’ standards.” Or something like that! You’ve really got to listen to it. (I mean, you don’t HAVE to, but I do invite you to. :) )
http://www.tearsofeden.org/podcast/episode-24-season-finale-with-diane-langberg
Has anyone been reading Brent’s recent posts? He seems to have a lot of new evidence and he is naming names that he had not named before.
Sick with Worry
Brent now has a few more,posts up including one about Llewelyn and hi daughter recanting her allegations.
Also, there is one where Smyth has now stepped down from his new Monument church due to Concerns about Smyth covering up his fathers abusive actions. Monument is the church Smyth founded after briefly being lead pastor at CLC.
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/pj-smyth-steps-down-as-lead-pastor-of-monument-church-lead-a.html
Brent Detwiler has published an article on the 10 year anniversary of releasing “the documents.”
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/marking-the-10th-anniversary-of-sending-out-the-documents-st.html
Wow it’s been over a decade, and the “elder” CJ is still not been held accountable to the Body of Messiah.
When Paul says those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence before all.
No wonder CJ ran away…..
Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
— 1 Timothy 5:19-20 NASB
I’ve heard it said, the “Judgment of Almighty” can be slow, but it is sure.
It is hard to believe it has been 10 years.
C.J. may not have been held accountable as Gen-1 indicated but there certainly have been consequences such as CLC leaving Sovereign Grace along with a number of other churches.
Sadly C.J.’s story and actions seem repeated with other fallen leaders such as James MacDonald, Mark Driscoll, Bob Weiner. The worst thing is that much of the body of Christ hasn’t learned and allow additional apparent narcissistic leaders to continue to rise to leadership positions in the body of Christ.
Maybe this last year (2020-21) of being under lockdown in C-19 is possibly stretching the Body of Christ to not be so dependent on the current leadership style,as Steve 240 mentioned, and the current system of being the mega churches models like (SGM) (SGC) for example; most Churches were shut down during covid for the most part.But as we look to the future in the Body Of Christ.
Maybe going back to the first century model might be more advantageous as we move into the days ahead. Maybe the congregations will have more “autonomy” and “control” as far as holding leadership accountable?
If we would focus on versus 1-6 in Ephesians 4 and not so much on just verse 11 as CJ and company did in the early years, maybe there would have been much more of a balanced outcome and a healthy body of believers?
Verses 12 through 16 would have been the reality, and the fruit of a vibrant Body of Belivers in Christ Jesus and John 17 Jesus Prayer could have been a reality.
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it says,
“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.”
(Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
— Ephesians 4:1-16 NASB
The Judge of Time will tell.
Gen1
I think there is always a danger with leaders of mega churches. Unfortunately when churches get large the ego of their leaders also get large many times.
Sadly many leaders can’t handle success. This as you said it might be better if the churches were kept smaller.