Which Jesus?
August 5, 2019 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Years and years ago (circa 2007, can you believe it’s been that long?), this site started as a place to post some of my personal musings about our experience in a Sovereign Grace Church. (If you’re wondering what our experience was like, you can click on the tab above that says, “Who We Are And How We Got Here.”)
This was way before the problems with Sovereign Grace Ministries were EVER discussed publicly anywhere on the internet (except for some random comments on an inactive blog I eventually ended up preserving here). I had no idea other people might have felt the same as we did. Certainly, I had no idea anyone had had far worse experiences they wanted to talk about.
But life has a way of happening. Things change. People grow and change. Guy and I have grown and changed.
Just like Josh Harris, we have evolved in our thinking. Just in a way that’s basically the polar opposite of how he’s changed.
If you’re someone who has had a bad experience in your Sovereign Grace Church…if you’re someone who has stumbled on this site because you’ve been reading about Josh Harris’ recent self-proclaimed apostasy…if you’re looking for information about the Sovereign Grace organization’s historical issues…you’ve still reached a safe place where you can share your story, ask questions, or post your thoughts. Feel free to look around. Click on the “Stories” tab above. Read the sermon transcripts and see for yourself what used to be taught within SG churches.
HOWEVER, I feel like i need to explain where we are coming from nowadays. I’ve gotten more than a few emails asking why certain comments didn’t get published. I owe the readers here an explanation.
I seem to do my best thinking while responding to comments. Today, someone posted a comment and I wrote a response, and my response really captures where my thinking is right now. It might also help people understand where we are coming from nowadays. So I’m going to repost it below.
Again, full disclosure, it’s long and more than a little bit rambling. But hey, it’s the best I’ve got right now. So here goes…
This was posted in response to a commenter who asked,
Do honest and authentic Christians still come here to share their rich faith in Jesus Christ, and to rejoice in his faithfulness?
The short answer to your question is, for me, a resounding “Yes.” I find a lot of encouragement in many of the comments.
A more nuanced answer to your question (“Do honest and authentic Christians still come here to share their rich faith in Jesus Christ, and to rejoice in his faithfulness?”) is, it depends on which Jesus you’re talking about.
See, I’ve been on my own faith journey of sorts over the past several years. I think all believers are, actually, if we’re honest. And my journey has taken me some interesting places. I grew up in a really sweet, wholesome, mindlessly fundamentalist small-town Christian culture, going to the same Bible-believing Evangelical church and attending Christian schools the whole time. Some of the mindlessness about Christianity was a product of the era. I know I sound like an old lady these days, but I’m constantly telling my kids, things have changed TREMENDOUSLY in the past 20 years or so. It used to be that if someone claimed the name of Christ, there were certain things you could assume about their priorities, their attitudes, their lifestyle. Nowadays, that has all changed.
But anyway, that’s how I was raised, and for a number of years into adulthood, Guy and I sort of floated along, attending a couple of what were becoming increasingly bland seeker-friendly megachurches. Their statements of faith were all kosher, the preaching didn’t raise any alarms. But both Guy and I were feeling frustrated in a sort of nameless, formless way.
Then, through a series of random events, we found ourselves attending a Sunday evening service at a charismatic church. I was very yielded and eager…and on that night, I had some sort of experience. For years, I have sought to figure out what that experience was. Was it God? Was it my own brain? Was it the product of my eagerness?
Anyway, after that experience, I was hooked. We left our bland megachurch with nary a backward glance. Guy and I rather quickly became ENGULFED in the charismatic church. Despite all my Christian education (one class shy of a minor in theology, decades of decent teaching) there were a LOT of theological things that I didn’t understand at the time, things about hermeneutics in particular. I also rather deliberately shut my mind off. This was encouraged.
For awhile, things were great. The pastor and his wife were viewed as inaccessible celebrities in the little world they’d created, yet somehow Guy and I were singled out for attention. We felt empowered by and optimistic about the name-it-and-claim-it teachings. I mean, yeah, my old doctrinal muscle memory would nag me sometimes about how unbalanced it was to use some random opening greeting from 3 John (“Beloved, I wish above all else that you be in good health and prosper”) as the foundation for basically everything we were taught about how it was always God’s will to heal people and bless them financially. But I silenced those voices, in large part because I’d always come back to my experiences in the church.
After a few years there, though, things seemed to get wackier. Pretty soon, I couldn’t quiet the nagging thoughts that kept bubbling to the surface. I started to do some serious reading and research. Even though I kept assigning my experiences a great deal of weight (like, because I had such a great experience, the teachings can’t be coming from a totally wrong place), I also started critically examining the name-it-and-claim-it stuff.
It was this questioning that eventually led us to leave our charismatic church and find Sovereign Grace. We were drawn in by SG’s purported commitments to charismaticism and “sound doctrine.”
Anyway, warning, seemingly random segue here, but I promise it will come back around…
Mormonism has actually been an interest of mine for years. I educated myself on this religion when I first encountered some friends who seemed so Christian in their behavior but were actually LDS. I had to know how their beliefs differed from my own. I ended up learning so much about Mormonism. (It’s hilarious, when the Mormon missionaries roll up to our doorstep on their bikes, Guy will sigh because he knows I’m going to invite them in, feed them, and have a rousing discussion with them. More than once, they have actually admitted I know more about the doctrinal intricacies of their faith than they do.)
The entire foundation of Mormonism is Joseph Smith. Was he a legitimate prophet? Did an angel come down and give him a new revelation? Why do we accept or reject his claims?
Anyway, how this connects to my faith journey is, one day I was reading about hermeneutics and it suddenly occurred to me: If I’m willing to assign my own personal experience so much weight so that I can put up with teachings that are incompatible with the “whole counsel of God” as it is revealed through a straightforward reading of scripture, then why is it OK to reject Mormonism?
Along those same lines, how do we determine whether something is truly from God? What standard do we use to determine if Jesus is actually speaking to us?
People will talk about meeting Jesus, being encouraged to love like Jesus, encountering Jesus. And all of that is fine and dandy…EXCEPT, why do we reject some Jesuses (like the Jesus of Mormonism, or the Jesus of Marianne Williamson and the New Agers) but not others?
The standard answer has always been, you run it by the Bible. If it contradicts the Bible, if the Jesus you are encountering is different than the Jesus portrayed in the gospels, then your Jesus is a counterfeit Jesus…the product of your own imagination or maybe even of satanic forces.
Likewise, if you are a Christian and feel like you’re being told to do something and you think it’s Jesus/God telling you to do it, the standard answer has always been, does this behavior contradict what is commanded for believers in scripture? If it does, then the desire to engage in that behavior is coming from your unregenerate old sin nature, not the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus.
Nowadays, though, that standard answer is somehow not satisfactory to a lot of people. Nowadays, even otherwise earnest, committed believers think it’s “mean” or “harsh” to say a straightforward reading of scripture condemns something like homosexual activity.
I blame the seeker-friendly movement for some of this wimpiness about the Bible. Many of us have been conditioned to accept incorrect beliefs about evangelism and what “church” is supposed to be. We have been conditioned to see Jesus and church as products we need to sell to people. Our megachurches offer up endless sermons about having a better family, or managing your money better, or improving your marriage. You can find food banks and addiction recovery groups. What’s confusing, of course, is that there’s nothing exactly wrong about any of those messages or services…but all too often, it’s something of a bait-and-switch at best, where our churches first hide the hard truths of the gospel – truths like, you’re a sinner, lost, an enemy of God, dead in your sins, completely helpless and unable to save yourself or make yourself right with God – and only slip the less appealing parts of the Christian faith in later. At worst, the harder stuff is NEVER mentioned, because we’re afraid our “converts” will be turned off to a Jesus that might make demands on their lives or ask them to change anything.
One rationale for the church’s avoidance of addressing specific sinful behaviors is that many of us have also somehow bought into the idea that “all sins are equal in God’s eyes.”
Really, this was actually HUGE within SGM and is why child molesters were regarded as no worse than someone who was struggling with unforgiveness. There has been this TOTALLY STUPID embrace of thinking that Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 somehow means engaging in adulterous sex isn’t any worse in God’s eyes than merely thinking about it. Or that being gay – engaging in homosexual behavior and building your entire identity upon the foundation of your sexual proclivities – is no worse a sin than gossiping.
Yes, it is true that all sin separates us from God. That was Jesus’ point in Matthew 5-7, that no one among His Jewish listeners could ever hope to follow the law well enough to please God. Jesus was establishing their need for a Savior, someone who was both perfect man AND God, someone who could keep the law perfectly in both outward AND inward ways.
But Jesus was not saying that if you tell a lie, for example, you are going to experience an equal amount of destructive consequences as the person who sins sexually. Later in the New Testament, Paul explains that sexual sin is in a separate category (check out I Corinthians 6, for example). Sexual sin does unique harm to the sinner.
I’m NOT saying there’s somehow not grace for the person who has fallen sexually. Obviously there is! (Because the Bible says there is…)
But – to bring this rambling comment back around to clearly address the original question – if someone reads here and is asking about “refreshment from Jesus” or whatever, sure. Absolutely! We can talk about Jesus and celebrate forgiveness and God’s love all day long. As long as we are clearly discussing the Jesus of the Bible and God’s love as it is portrayed there, balanced equally with God’s perfect and incredible holiness and our utter abject failure without Christ to approach God and meet His holy standards.
You see, my faith journey has led me to resoundingly reject anything that does not go with a straightforward reading of scripture. You wanna celebrate gay pride like Josh Harris did this past weekend? Do so somewhere else. Wanna talk about how Jesus provides salvation and grace for us? Sure, absolutely – as long as I can tell there’s a balance to your comment and you aren’t leading people astray to assume the Bible has somehow suddenly become OK with behaviors it clearly deems sinful.
Because…I mean…why do you believe anything about Jesus, if you feel like rejecting some of scripture? If you’re basing your Jesus on some experience you had, how do we assess whether it’s the Jesus of the Bible or the Jesus of your imagination that was affected by that bad pizza you had last night? This is where I applaud Josh Harris for at least (for now) pretending to be intellectually consistent in his rejection of the Christian faith because he’s rejecting the Bible’s sexual ethic.
Anyway, I’ve reached a place in my own personal walk with the Lord where I’m not going to coddle people here by shying away from standing up for the truth of scripture. Even if those people have been badly hurt by their Sovereign Grace pastors’ misuse of scriptures. Truth is truth. The good news of Jesus is quite literally all we have between us and an eternity in hell. We get the good news of Jesus from the Bible, and pretty much only the Bible (because all other subjective stuff has to be judged BY the Bible or else it is worth no more than Mormonism). Life is too short and the times are evil.
It’s not “mean” or “harsh” to say so. If anything, it’s the least kind thing you could do, to affirm someone in his or her journey to hell in the interest of being nice.
© 2019, Kris. All rights reserved.
What does NWF stand for again?
I will say, Josh Harris may be half a generation too old to be trying so hard on Instagram…but he’s definitely playing the game.
He knows very well that posting a picture of himself holding a rainbow-colored donut and telling the world he just marched in a gay pride parade is going to generate a lot of speculation…and cause people to make some quite logical inferences, especially in light of his declarations of the past month or so. But then he accompanies his photo with a multi-sentence snarky little lecture about jumping to conclusions.
It takes a special kind of obnoxious to do Instagram like that.
I mean, it’s not like the pictures have been selfies. Either he’s hauling around a tripod (highly unlikely) or he’s got someone with him who’s photographing him. Is he handing the person his phone and telling them to take the pictures? Or is he having the person send him the pictures they’re taking with their own phone, so he can then upload them to Insta?
The photo accompanying his “I am no longer a Christian” post is especially silly, if you stop and think about it for just a second or two. He’s sitting with his back toward the camera, staring pensively at a lake. The shot was obviously supposed to connote pondering about his faith or something. Yet, again – WHO TOOK THE SHOT? Did this person somehow sneak up on Josh as he sat in the woods, thinking his newly pagan thoughts and drawing his newly pagan conclusions? And again, did this photographer then send Josh the picture so he could post it? Or did Josh hand the person his phone and say, “Hey, take a picture of my back, but make sure they can see it’s me staring and ‘thinking'”????
Like the whole thing is just SO DUMB. SO IMMATURE. Dude, you’re doing a really good job of capturing teenaged angst. Only you’re, what, 40? 42? Old enough to be a (young) grandparent? Yikes.
Not sure, but NWF could stand for Nationwide Fellowship Church – Mennonite.
Kris – you are one of the reasons I check in once in a while. You have the ability to cut straight to the heart of the matter and you don’t mince words.
Kris, I agree with your remarks about how blatantly Josh’s immaturity shows on his Instagram posts. How sad that he doesn’t even realize how silly he looks.
Josh is the perfect example of the immaturity found in so many adults who are raised by controlling, micro-managing, overprotective parents. Add the exploitation by his dad and you have a mess. However, I don’t feel the sympathy for Josh that I would for a “victim.” There’s something about Josh that’s been there since he was young boy manning his dad’s book tables at homeschool conferences. He’s always enjoyed the limelight.
We appreciate the need for accountability of leaders. There is also a desire on our part to give them an opportunity first (“time to repent ” Rev 2:21), before it could become a permanent public record of their sin. Hopefully, once the leader (Harry ) realizes that there is a public accountability to the larger body of Christ, this will help him to repent and be restored. It’s important to note, for years he has rejected pleas to get any outside input , concerning the various “issues”.
May Harry/NWF desire to redeem the relationships that were sadly lost and repent from the controlling aspects they operate in. May believers be made aware of fellowships in which the DNA that came from places like SGM continues.
Kris, the only thing I would add to your apt description of the recent spate of the Harris’s posts and photos, is the evidence of profound selfishness, on the part of both Josh and Shannon. I feel most sorry for their kids, right now.
Kris, in his YouTube videos he hauls around a tripod. Not sure if he does for everything or if someone else is shooting them. Whoever is shooting is not a professional (the lighting isn’t that great.) You are right in your points. Josh 3.0 marketing on motion.
As a side bite: when this came out, I remembered making a comment on his first post-CLC YouTube video something to the effect that the video resembled a mid-life crisis. I wasn’t wrong!! I went and found the comment the other day and Josh agreed with my comment. So sad. I doubt either of us truly saw allnif this coming.
On Guard- I am not disagreeing with your assessment, in fact, the burden of proof probably lies on those who might. I didn’t know the guy at all personally.
However, I did want to mention one thing, Many years ago we knew somebody well, who backslid or apostasized or whatever you call it. After years of dynamic ministry on the mission field (conservative Baptist type group) where he led dozens of people to the Lord if not hundreds, he threw it all over for an affair, and then became a terrible blasphemer. He actively tried hard to talk young Christians out of faith, with all sorts of explanations about why Christianity was a cult. It was terrible for his wife, although she is well and happy now and stayed with the Lord.
About 12 years ago I went to the reading room of a Seminary and pulled out John Owens on apostasy and spent hours trying to understand. This guy we knew had a very real and personal walk with the living God, he was no hireling. Owen is called the greatest theologian in the English language.
While I don’t know that I will ever fully understand this sort of thing, I wanted to tell you what Owen said about the Hebrew passage and the word “impossible”. I forget the intricacies of the Greek and the context and the direct objects or indirect objects and who was being written to and all that, but I do remember Owen’s conclusion. That conclusion was that it is impossible for man to bring back an apostate, but God can do it. The Greek and the way the passage is laid out does not preclude the Lord turning them back to Himself.
Owen is tough to read, very tough, but maybe if you ever have time you can dig it up and read that part. It is encouraging. If the greatest theologian in our language who ever lived says God can bring Josh back, then we should be fervent in prayer when we think of him, that he would be restored.
Regarding Josh Harris and his Instagram posts I am sure Josh knows exactly what he is doing with just posting pictures without an explanation.
Apparently Josh is wanting to drag out and thus get more attention by posting pictures of his participating in this parade. Another possibility is Josh testing the waters on how it will be received and thus just put out a hint. With Josh Harris divorcing his wife one option may be that Josh is actually gay and planning to “come out” but won’t know till Josh shares more.
As I have said before I am baffled how those who claim to believe in Calvinism don’t use Calvinism to explain Josh’s change. Though I don’t agree with Calvinism, the way Calvinism would explain Josh is that Josh was either never given that “irresistible grace” that God only gives some or with the “perseverance of the saints” if Josh was given this grace then Josh will eventually return to the faith.
Calvinism teaches that it is God who decides who will be saved and who won’t. If you claim to believe in Calvinism why not just accept that God so far hasn’t “elected” Josh to salvation?
To say that Calvinism teaches that it is God who ‘decides’ who will be saved and who won’t, is someone who thinks of God as if He were human; locked into time and space. God perceives outside time and space, He sees who is saved and who is not, even if they are not yet born. God does not decide so much as He already knows, eternity past to eternity future.
Steve: “the way Calvinism would explain Josh is that Josh was either never given that “irresistible grace” that God only gives some or with the “perseverance of the saints” if Josh was given this grace then Josh will eventually return to the faith.”
Yes. But Calvinism also teaches that commands and exhortations to obey and repent and believe are real commands, and we are morally culpable before God if we fail to obey.
It is a mystery. “Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
It is my sincere hope that Josh was born again, made a new creation, given a new spirit that can never die, and will one day be back, after he processes all the garbage. I hope he is the prodigal having a real good time in a foreign land, who will end up in a pigsty and come to his senses and return to the father.
Those poor kids, I pray for their salvation through all this.
While reading some of JH’s previous writings, I remembered the hymn “Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing,” and the story that is attached to it. The writer fell away from Christ. Some years later, he was riding in a stagecoach and a young woman began singing it. You can read the story at www.https://wordwisehymns.com/2010/06/09/today-in-1790-robert-robinson-died/
I hope something similar happens to JH and the Hillsong writer who also announced this week that he has lost his faith. I guess I’m cynical, but the lost faith thing seems to be the new jargon for midlife crisis.
And Kris — I had the same thought about the posed photos. How many shots did it take to get the perfectly posed rainbow cake photo? And the ‘getting out of the car’ pose?
Great story, Beth. Our God is mighty to save!
REGARDING THE NWF ? :
OutThere says:
August 13, 2019 at 8:31 am
Gen 1 and NWFSurvivor – is there a reason you don’t mention Harry’s full name? I can figure out who you are talking about, but I don’t want to say if that would be a problem for you.
(Also to Kris + A Kindred Spirit) I would have to say a similar response as Gen1-Rev22. I think it’s important to give people “time to repent “
I also keep thinking of the verse that there is a “time for every matter under heaven..” (ECC 3:1).
But, I’m not sure it’s the right time to identify the NWF yet. Now if you or someone else believes it is, then you/they can act on that.
Can anyone please explain how Joshua Harris as a pastor deliberately hurt people, and now that he has apparently abandoned his faith in Jesus, what can be done about it?
Joshua Harris, the proverbial Sumerian on the road, is no longer a self-avowed Christian. Does this mean we should beat him with a religious shovel and proceed to bury him? Or tend and bind his self-inflicted, and social media wounds that he might tend the fields Jesus said were white with harvest, another day?
Joshua Harris has not been a part of SGM/SGC for many years. Why should his life’s work matter now? What evil did he deliberately do to injure the Maryland local body of Christ?
NWFSurvivor said,
This is all very confusing to me. Does NWF have some sort of connection to Sovereign Grace Churches? If not, why are we even talking about it here? Is there something I’ve missed?
Hi Kris ,
You probably missed these parts of Gen1’s letter , “ I am writing an open letter concerning a group (the NWF) and its leader Harry who used to be part of CLC”. …The DNA is the same from the mother church…”
So,there were also many former SGM folks in the group . Thanks for the question for clarification.
PS.
Hi Kris.
A lesser reason that I’m hesitant to focus on the group name NWF, is that I don’t want anyone (in the group) to feel like I’m being critical of them (the issue is decisions/sins by the leadership) I wouldn’t want anyone in CLC to feel that way either, some are my good friends. Who knows some may even read this post :)
Guest, what’s your own opinion about all this? Instead of asking questions (which sound to me like rhetorical questions, questions for which you’ve already decided the answers but are asking here to try to make some kind of point you already think is obvious), why not just come right out and say what you’re trying to say? Why not just share your views?
Josh Harris continues to matter to people whose history includes time in SGM/SG churches because he was one of the organization’s celebrity faces for more than a decade. In fact, his fame and influence were strategically leveraged to increase SGM’s reach to a specific demographic – a demographic who now desires to make sense of what happened.
In my view, the discussions here are less about whatever personal pain and sadness Josh may be feeling and more about what the recent developments say about the leadership and organization that put him out there as a leader, front and center. And more about what his present behavior on social media reveals about his past leadership. I don’t know Josh personally, have never known him, have no possibility of contact with him on any kind of face-to-face level. I can pray for him and his family, but beyond that, there will have to be other good Samaritans (those with actual relationships with him) who reach out to him with help.
He has put considerable thought and energy into rebranding himself on social media as a woke enemy of the Jesus of scripture. He’s clearly still following his lifelong M.O., seeking to take his personal experiences and share them with the world in such a way so as to get attention and exert influence. In that way, he’s seeking to drag others down with him. It’s important to keep pointing this out.
As NWF-Survivor-2, and knowing the circumstances surrounding their time there, I can attest to Gen 1-Rev 22 and NWF-Survivor and their experiences. As noted, NWF had ties to CLC. This makes the sharing of its experiences relevant. We can acknowledge that man’s tendencies are toward controlling, aren’t they? Many churches unrelated to SGM have these issues, but perhaps there are other fellowships that really had their beginnings with SGM (but weren’t SGM churches) and had very similar leadership tendencies. These are the believers I am most concerned about. I am sure I was not sinless in my responses to people thru my time there but when, from the leadership, honest communication is not privately sought or publicly allowed but shut down, then the proper dialogue, operating thru love, that should be between believers in Christ cannot occur and causes great rifts.
Over the years I have observed 7 families (and this is out of a small congregation never totaling more than 20 families) who were either encouraged to leave because of various disputes, disagreements or perceived contentions with Harry (or those of his family) or were “forced” out. This was from what I deemed was a lack of the “leadership” desiring to “deal” with the person (whether real or perceived, we all can have various issues that are tough to deal with, right?). As NWF-Survivor mentions (and it fits to a “T”), the “smear, shutdown and spin” was the common way to handle these disagreements that Harry had with persons. It has been so sad to see what has ended up happening for some of them as they couldn’t understand how and why someone who could be so loving in so many ways, could turn so suddenly and either totally make up stuff to smear others or had such a completely different perspective of facts as to be unrecognizable to others.
My ultimate distress centered around situations regarding the children: the dreaded “double-standard”, the lack of grace for childishness and the attempts to “divide and conquer” by blaming the child that wasn’t there so leadership could give mine a pass. There were many years of (now I see as falsely) giving grace. We thought the new parents/grandparents just didn’t really understand what children are capable of – of course mine weren’t perfect but there was no room for dialogue, to actually examine the circumstances. But when I was eventually able to sit down and share with Harry the many examples of that double standard and the harm thru it as perceived by my children, the only response was “well, maybe it would be best for you to find another fellowship”. Funny thing, when we left CLC because of some doctrinal/practical things that didn’t seem to fit Scripture to us, we pulled out our Bible and hoped to have a dialogue. The pastor’s response was, “we don’t need that, if you don’t trust us, then maybe you should find another place to worship”.
We went ahead and left NWF, to the great relief of each member of our family. However our concerns and true reasons for leaving were not shared with the rest of the congregation by leadership as far as I could tell (and I was done – if others didn’t ask, I wasn’t going to go into it – and no one asked). ). We also did this to be careful that we weren’t speaking wrongly of another, in an effort to be blameless. When an opportunity arose to ask Harry again, about 8 months later, if there was any relevance to my concerns, the answer was “absolutely none”. This was a confirmation of the attitude that ran thru the later years of NWF – the leader never did wrong. His perspective and way of doing things was IT. That is not to say that sins were never occasionally confessed.
I recently did read some of the emails that Brent posted in one of his expose’s about CJ and the vacation situation. So similar. The device is for the leader to accept your concerns to your face but then send someone else who will attempt to get you to have the “right perspective”.
Too many hurt and hurting people left NWF due to heavy-handedness. May God have mercy and grant repentance and healing.
Kris, In Josh’s basement religious environment, he was theologically taught that he had no power of choice. Now he is, right or wrongly, exercising it in spades, with a globular gentleman’s apology to boot, to all whom he has harmed. 501(c)3 rebellion now and again is a good thing. :-)
Kris, Our Lord Jesus has met with Josh, and given him a choice. That choice can be very liberating. Yet, remember, no one shacked Sampson but himself. (The effectual prayer of a righteous individual avails much.)
Gen-1 and NWF Survivors – I did not know Harry personally, but what I knew of him 20 years ago doesn’t sound much different from what you are describing today. Why do you think he will change at all? One of the lessons many of us here took away from the SGM debacle is that we were complicit in propping up the leaders. I understand you want to give Harry time, but if he is misusing his leadership, as you say, then he is hurting people who (albeit willingly) are following him. By continuing to wait even longer, aren’t you more worried about Harry than about anyone he may be hurting? Just a thought…
This whole conversation has turned weird. It appears that Guest has zero interest or Josh’s part in it and wants people to stop being critical of his apostacy.
The other weird part is a seemingly private ci versation where only 1-3 people know who/what NWF is, unless it is an abbreviation for New Frontiers or the National Wildlife Federation. The conversation is annoying since you are speaking in code.
Above response re: Guest should have said zero interest in SGM.
Out there:
Thank you very much for your response, I have a question for you, what did you know of Harry 20 years ago? For if might have met you 20 years ago maybe I might have been spared the rough road, I and my family had to go through, maybe.
In this conversation the importance of this blog site to give people a voice that when that voice is squelched within the SGM culture weather, a big Para Church organization, or a small Fellowship, we’re seeing a tip of an iceberg of the failings of leadership within this culture of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
and I believe that we have no idea how big this iceberg is, as most of it, the iceburg still lies under the water at present, but as I’ve heard it said, that CLC is like a Mothership, and we know what happens to big ships and icebergs. So those in the Ministries, and the persons that are beholden to SGM culture will do a 180 degree turn called “repentance”
OutThere, I actually don’t hold out hope for repentance at this point, after all our efforts toward that. I am one adding my voice to see how God might move but that doesn’t mean it’s really anything but that. That said, all the encouragement for him to do so has been private. Perhaps with a little public pressure, another avenue may work. Those now (mostly) outside CLC that knew him and read here may bring to bear some comments he will consider – I can hope for that.
Jenn:
Please give a little grace, and allow our story to develop, you might be pleasantly surprised.
For the goal is to flush out SGM culture and wherever it resides.
Linking my illustration of the iceberg, hundreds, if not thousands of lives, have been negatively affected, all in the Name of Jesus.
And so of the of Revelations of late of top-down leadership of SGM/SGC leaving the faith, this is only the beginning.
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
Jenn, you made me laugh out loud! As did “globular”, but that’s probably just me being critical. :)
Hi Jenn, I appreciate your being open about your feelings regarding “NWF” conversations. I understand that it could seem like a private conversation, but actually it’s not. I think those posting have tried to make it relevant to the larger issues on this blog. Also, I believe as time goes on more information will be revealed,… “there’s nothing hidden except to be revealed”.
Here’s a few more thoughts to consider, imagine if someone from your church was convinced that you had sinned and they were getting ready to post something on social media with your real name, (with the potential further reposting, which is irreversible at times)
Wouldn’t you want that person to, as the scripture says “make every effort to keep the unity of spirit” and give you further opportunity ? ( “Do unto others… “)
So , all I can ask is, please be patient or simply when you see NWF just move on. Sorry for the “annoyance”, thanks again, NWFsurvivor
Anyone else see this? The lead singer from Skillet offers a blunt, scathing commentary on unnamed leaders who are leaving the faith. Here’s my favorite quote. The link to the full commentary is below the quote.
“I have a few specific thoughts and rebuttals to statements made by recently disavowed church influencers… first of all, I am stunned that the seemingly most important thing for these leaders who have lost their faith is to make such a bold new stance. Basically saying, “I’ve been living and preaching boldly something for 20 years and led generations of people with my teachings and now I no longer believe it..therefore I’m going to boldly and loudly tell people it was all wrong while I boldly and loudly lead people in to my next truth.” I’m perplexed why they aren’t embarrassed? Humbled? Ashamed, fearful, confused? Why be so eager to continue leading people when you clearly don’t know where you are headed?”
https://cogentchristianity.com/2019/08/13/skillets-john-cooper-on-apostasy-among-young-christian-leaders/?fbclid=IwAR3Q420h6-LI9J3XoE9U4znpynTnN8OTyAH7mJ_NqG0BcfQGM1zlE9drRro
I asked about stating Harry’s full name because without it, the conversation about him is too elliptical – I agree with Jenn about it seeming like a private conversation.. You make a good point about groups that SGM spawned, but it’s also kind of pointless without concrete details. I’m not trying to make you expose Harry, by the way, I’m just saying that if you are going to make comments here, they are too vague for those of us who don’t know what is actually going on, so it’s hard to join in.
I am with Outthere…I am not interested in exposing the person….maybe take your conversation to FB until there is a real and public connection to SGM? Otherwise it is just weird.
It sounded like NFW was a group not a person, so I might have missed that in the ambiguity.
Hi Outhere,
Each new post about the NWF group is providing more and more details,(and I have a huge amount of documents excerpts to share). For those who know who Harry personally, it brings light and things become more apparent.
For those who don’t know him personally, does it really matter to know whether he’s Harry Jones or Harry Smith Etc. What I believe matters is seeing the larger pattern of heavy shepherding (and the scriptures that are being violated)so more people can see the underlying DNA. I think it helps others to see what’s going on in their local church.
The same heavy shepherding “play” is being acted out, it’s just a different cast of characters.
Hang in there,
Thanks
Jenn, this is certainly not a zero sum game, our Lord knows perfectly well, the score. Rest assured, there are bigger fish to fry. Heaven help those who hurt His children.
I honestly hate these discussion that chase down the shepherding rabbit hole. To me, what makes the SGM experience unique is how they adapted and gave the appearance of moving away from shepherding and managed to fool most of the modern evangelical community into thinking there was not this lording of authority.
This is obviously Kris and Guy’s blog and they can do what they want, but I think the SGM survivors get lost if this turns into a survivors blog for other groups. I also think it could be a bit of a stretch to say, apart from the guy who parted with TAG early on, other groups have really splintered. Shepherding was a big movement in and of itself and I think Maranatha had more influence than SGM. Are there some similarities, surex probably, but overall ,SGM did have a unique experience.
NWFsurvivor, no one cares about the individual’s name. What’s being said is that it’s hard to understand what is being said, and it seems a lot of time is being spent discussing something that is neither understood by many of us, nor relevant. Possibly, the communication can wait until it IS relevant? Like if it’s going to become clear, maybe wait until it IS clear, or it’s a bunch of word mush for most of us.
Jenn:
I think your last statement in your last post drives my point home when you said the shepherding was a big movement in it of itself and I think Maranatha had more influence than sgm and there are similarities.
Is not this forum about exposing sgm culture? whether it’s, one person, one family, five families, 20 families, or thousand families.
I might not know what’s going on with the families in Georgia or California or Colorado or Pennsylvania or Maryland or could I?
The benefits of the internet and this survivors blog.
But as NWF Survivor has stated in there earlier postings,is not this effort is it not about exposing the heavy-handed / lording controlling leadership that has affected and possibly ruin people’s lives?
Whether it be Sovereign Grace churches or Maranatha Ministries for example.
So I might not be in, a Heavy-handed Church like in CLC culture (per-se) but I have all the aspects in the fruit of the shepherding movement in my particular a Fellowship, and I come on this website and I can identify with the heavy-handedness, and how people’s lives are being affected, even though I was not personally in that congregation, or know them personally.
But wouldn’t I, or my family benefit, to “connect the dots” and to know that I am not alone, in this journey? and learn from people that came out of the system, to confront those people that as leadership need to be confronted because of the over heavy-handed /shepherding /leadership abuse?
So I think our postings are revelant to the sgm culture, and its history, for most of the people that are in NWF,came out of CLC, middle 90′ time frame.
The name has changed, the location is changed, but the same controlling Spirit affecting people’s lives.
If this website was called “Heavy-Handed Shepherding Movement Survivors,” I might see your points, Gen-1 and NWFSurvivor. But it’s not.
Of course, anyone who has been through SGM and similar church experiences is sympathetic but this might not be the right place for you all to sort out who and what you want to expose and discuss.
If it’s helpful for you all to start your own website or blog so you can talk more freely, I’m sure someone here can help you set that up.
At the end if the day it was not shepherding, nor being charismatic, nor being reformed, nor the lack of seminary education for the leaders that caused the SGM scandals, it was personal integrity, which transcends denominations and doctrines. Using any if the aforementioned items as the scapegoat or focus is a disservice to what happened within SGM. It is the route that SGM, itself, took to try to avoid accountability.
A friend reached out to me about the CLC-NWF thread, so for what it’s worth I’ll offer a few thoughts to hopefully add a bit of clarity.
Harry — a CLC member that spouse and I were friends with back in the 80s — was a strong personality, a charismatic individual passionately committed to the Lord, who led a small group during that decade and I think well beyond. He was a strong leader (did I mention, “passionate?”) and collected a good group of CLC members to populate his small group. To clarify, these were small groups within CLC and those leaders were chosen by the CLC elders. These groups were called “home groups” (later, “care groups”) and the function of those groups was to provide the personal care that the busy pastors were unable to provide for most of the members, as well as to disseminate the views of the CLC leadership.
Harry’s small group meetings were not for chit-chat, however, but were primarily a teaching venue for Harry’s strong-flavored preaching. I appreciated his boldness in proclaiming the Word during these meetings, as well as his special kindness to the members of his group. Some in the group were people who were not the type usually sought after by church leaders, and yet Harry seemed to seek out their opinions during the meetings and to respect their dignity and personhood. (Yes… if alarm bells are going off in your mind while reading this, me too… though I lacked the necessary discernment at the time.)
During the time we were members of his home group, Harry told several of us about a situation happening within the CLC leadership. Roger D., who was CJ’s brother-in-law and the church administrator at the time, was being given “the silent treatment” by CJ. Roger told Harry that he was unable to perform the duties of his position because CJ refused to speak to him, even to answer job-related questions for which he needed his input as his supervisor.
Harry regarded Roger as his best friend at the time, and this account wounded him greatly, and (I believe), began to sever his emotional connection to the CLC leadership, specifically to CJ. Gen-1 and the others may remember the timeline better than I, but I don’t think it was too long after that before Harry told us all that he was breaking off ties with CLC and that the group would henceforth be under his leadership and unrelated to CLC.
Spouse and I considered staying in the group, because we were fond of Harry and his family, but in the end decided to stay with CLC instead. We thought the one-man leadership model problematic. And CLC, notwithstanding some problems we saw, had a “plurality of elders.”
These are my remembrances of that time. I’m not in a position to vouch for the accuracy of what Harry told us, but I do remember that this is what was communicated.
I’ve thought about this in the years since and — as I’m sure others here have concluded as well — that once someone has been imprinted with the “authority” model of church leadership, it’s hard to break free. People under that system sometimes develop a propensity towards heavy-handedness to others — whether it’s to members of a small group, or to one’s own family. It takes a deep thought-reformation for those so affected to learn to embody the spirit of Matt. 20-25-26 (where Jesus forbade the “lording over” others, and commanded his followers to serve one another in humility).
Since the implosion of CLC in 2011 I’ve been reading and pondering theology and church practice, and I’m not finished yet, though I’m grateful for the wisdom gained thus far. (Prov. 4:7)
Warm affection to all of you “regulars” who have posted your helpful insights here over the years.
Peach, good synopsis of the early days. As also evidenced I believe by CLC leaders (and in antithesis those who weren’t considered up to snuff to be long term CLC leaders, like Bob Hoover), passionate leaders are easy, at least initially, to follow but too often let it go to their heads. That’s what I see happened in these cases. While CLC had the illusion of plurality of elders, they didn’t, did they? With NWF and Harry, there was no illusion of any plurality, just “talk” about the Holy Spirit leading. In the end, the result was the same, wounded believers all around.
Jenn, I generally agree that much of the ultimate breakdown was related to personal integrity (with a HUGE measure of pride thrown in, which I imagine you could agree with) however, even with that, to me without their doctrines and practice it wouldn’t have had as far reaching effects. Unlike Brent, I see too much unscriptural mumbo-jumbo in the mix.
It’s common for narcissists to abruptly and heartlessly discard people who were previously of value to them. This is at the heart of SGM abuse.
In regards to Roger D, as Peach mentioned, he was indeed CJ’s BROTHER-IN-LAW and administrator of Covenant Life Church as well as CJ’s next-door neighbor.
What kind of pastor gives the administrator of his church the “silent treatment”? Especially if that administrator is his wife’s sister’s husband AND his next-door neighbor?
What theology in the world would leave people behind the bus like Mark Driscoll? How many relationally significant lives is CJ estranged from? Did he estrange Carolyn from her sister? from her brother Grant? from his brother-in-law Roger? from CJ’s brother Bill? from Despi? from Larry? from Josh Harris? from Shannon? from every single member of CLC that provided financial support for his ministry for 30 years?
Could this heresy be revealed in Carolyn’s post on Girl Talk in which she talked of throwing friends into the heap of unintelligibles, incurables and obstinates?
This is heresy. No man on earth has the right to call God’s chosen and redeemed “incurables”. To put oneself above God in this matter is as far from the Gospel as it gets.
From Girltalk 2015:
“Finally, as we try to carefully pick our way through the rubble of a broken relationship, we must leave the remaining confusion and questions in the hands of our loving, heavenly Father. Take this wise counsel from Dr. Cotton Mather:
It may not be amiss for you to have two heaps: a heap of Unintelligibles, and a heap of Incurables. Every now and then you will meet with something or other that may pretty much distress your thoughts, but the shortest way with the vexations will be, to throw them into the heap they belong to, and be no more distressed about them.
You will meet with some unaccountable and incomprehensible things, particularly in the conduct of many people. Throw them into your heap of Unintelligibles; leave them there. Trouble your mind no further; hope the best or think no more about them.
You will meet with some [unpersuadable] people; no counsel, no reason will do anything upon the obstinates: Throw them into the heap of Incurables. Leave them there. And go on to do as well as you can, what you have to do. Let not the crooked things that can’t be made straight encumber you.”
Gary, Bob, Jeff and the son-in-laws, consider these things and flee the man you fear.
NWFSurvivor2, agree with you about the pride but was sort of lumping that in with integrity.
My point is that the Baptists have witnessed some of the same exact scandals as SGM, all without shepherding, charismatics, and with an abundance of seminary teaching. The problem was always more on emphasis and practice than theology.
I imagine when Roger dared to question pope CJs treatment of Larry was when Roger was given the silent treatment.
I understand even though thetpy were neighbors C.J. wouldn’t let his kids play with Roger’s kids. Of course CJs hypocritical actions like this were never questioned.
Just saying…thank you for that post. I tried to find that reference a few times but couldn’t remember the words well enough. Incurables- your former fellow church members. Unbelievable.
By the way, speaking of CLC and its three for three pastors now- CJ, Harris, and Smyth- how is brother PJ, man of the memory lapse, getting along in his new anointed apostle endeavors? Did he manage to pull a bunch of people with him?
Peach, thank you for clearing some things up for us. I was completely confused and had absolutely no idea about the earlier discussions. Thank you for shedding the light you had.
NFWsurvivor2, I’m afraid I’m still confused. Are you saying that NFW is a movement, or was it a person? Was it connected to SGM/SGC somehow? Is that what was meant by saying it was relevant?
I’m so, so, so grieved reading reports about how things were allegedly super messed up even in the early days, yet those who knew, well, it doesn’t sound like they let it be known broadly enough, or people who knew, weren’t alarmed enough to go running for the exits. Sad.